Different Types of Bow Holds - NONE of Them Are Wrong!!
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- Опубликовано: 29 окт 2024
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For all those of you who are interested to know there are OTHER ways to hold the bow. Its subjective, so please dont comment on the way I hold the bow as its just how i do and its NOT wrong!
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I have my own grip that I have no control over but I’m determined to play violin so I have had to develope my own grip. I have my thumb and first finger (pointer) fused the thumb can’t bend at all and the pointer finger can’t bend at the first knuckle. So I call it the Linny bow hold. Lol that’s me!! I had Lyme disease and the bacteria settled in my joints And it deteriorated my bones. Giving me Lyme arthritis. I had to have 3 fingers fused n just had a total knee replacement in sept. 2019. But I’m determined to play. The third finger that’s fused is on my left hand. The middle finger. Making it a challenge to do vibrato. But I’m trying! Thank you for your helpful videos. 😃❤️
When a teacher says "there is only one right way!" to do anything, offer to trade shoes with them.
Oops, looks like individual variations in body geometry ARE important after all.
Greg Gallacci finally someone has got the correct answer....
it's the same with working out. i had people wanting to 'correct' my squatting form which actually led to back injury. according to them i was leaning forward too much. but my legs are just extremely long in relation to my total height, even though i'm really not that tall (1.85 - 6'1). probably the only times you should really work on changing form is when either you don't get expected results, or when things strained and painful.
Thank you for making this video. Bow hold is indeed one of the most contested points of violin technique so clarification is always needed. I do agree with some of the other comments that hand physiology should be considered to a certain degree. At the risk of sounding nitpicky, I do want to comment on the placement of the index finger. In Franco-Belgian bow hold, the index is most commonly placed between the 1st and 2nd knuckle (see Itzhak Perlman on bow grip video), not at the 2nd. In Russian bow hold, the index is commonly placed at the 2nd knuckle or between the 2nd and 3rd knuckles, but not at the 3rd knuckle (look at pictures of Leopold Auer and his pupils, most notably Heifetz and Milstein). You are correct about the steeper pronation of the hand in Russian bow hold though, this is a defining feature. The hand pronation for Franco-Belgian is much less steep, with a rounder pinky. One definite and often overlooked problem in bow hold is having an overly spread out hand, with the fingers too far apart. This is all too common in beginners, who find that a wider spread gives them greater stability, but it creates tension and rigidity which is a huge problem when learning any bow stroke beyond the most basic detaché and staccato. Things to watch out for are overly flexed (tight) hand muscles and visibly protruding tendons, particularly for the middle and ring finger. The index can sometimes be slightly further apart than the other fingers, but not too far forward. Its tendon also protrudes much more easily, but if you over-stretch the index, you will clearly see the difference. The fingers need to be at a natural distance from one another, the way the fingers would fall if you gently shake the right hand and drop it down, or how you would pick up an object from the ground. Taking into account individual hand physiology here is crucial. I find that this point pretty much always holds true among the best violinists, regardless of which bow hold they favor. For anyone interested, a brief but fairly comprehensive historical background of overall violin hold position can be found here: chase.leeds.ac.uk/article/physical-parameters-of-19th-and-early-20th-century-violin-playing-clive-brown/.
normal i would say. The violin bow grip is quite irritating, but sadly necessary - a bit like a golf grip! Awkward to start, but then you get used to it. As long as there is no real pain, I would say just keep on trucking. :)
Sorry to report, but it's been my experience that some teachers insist on the 'right' bow grip which turns out to be totally WRONG for a particular individual. I could never maintain parallel at the tip 'til I switched knuckles where the stick crossed. Guess teacher thought that franco belgian was what worked for everyone. Well, I don't think so. Depends on how yer built. Go figure it out.
Thanks for this video! I was a bit anxious about my hold since I haven't had a teacher for a while. I guess if it works for my style, that's the main thing! :D
yes, i think so. I dont know what else to tell you apart from just move at the same time as the fingers - lol. dont get too bogged down with sort of thing as its usually a) nothing to worry about and b) will sort itself out by itself over time.
Thank you so much for posting this. I've had the Franco-Belgian hold forced on me for years, but I just can't use it. The Russian feels best to me and, in my opinion, gets me the best sound.
Its all individual. If it works better for you, then go with it. As long as you can still move the fingers appropriately, then it will be fine.
german bow hold is not popular because it's already discontinued long time ago due to the amount of players getting injured.
read about ivan galamian on wikipedia. he's an iranian born violin teacher who'd moved to the usa and combined russian and franco-belgian bow holds. now his bow hold is called galamian bow hold. you can look the example of it by looking at Joshua Bell playing.
My opinion is when playing sweet music shallow holding like german is the best. When working on strong music like martele russian is the most powerful and easy. F-B grip is in between so it is flexible. I guess that is why most of people now use it.
totally agree.
you dont get much info about the german bow hold because this bow hold is discontinued long time ago. now there are 3 bow holds: russian, franco belgian and the galamian bow hold. If you want to see galamian bow hold, look at Joshua Bell playing. *continued*
Hi Alison! I'm working towards traditional and Celtic fiddle techniques. I noticed several advanced players move up the stick a fair bit. Is there an advantage to this?
That's exactly what I'm trying to find information about. I noticed a Cajun fiddle player doing the same. When I hold the bow on the wire wrapping, it just feels so much more balanced and comfortable. I've "owned" a violin for nearly 20 years, but I haven't "played" it for 20 years, so I'm very much a beginner at it but with a wealth of musical background besides it. I'm open to criticism about the pros and cons of holding the bow by the stick, but I've yet to find a violin teacher video that actually addresses it. I'm going to search "Celtic violin bow holds" and see if I find anything.
I was always taught the most important thinks are a relaxed hand and to use your natural hand shape as a base for your bow hold. I find it works for many and so that's how I teach it :)
Everybody gets it wrong, according to a bow maker that replaceable strip is for your thumb to grip and your nail to gouge into. And not just because he says so, but because the design of the bow says so!
A different grip that provides SUPREME CONTROL has your thumb on the bottom. I just started using it, and once again by ignoring the advice of teachers and doing the SENSIBLE thing instead, my playing instantly improved drastically.
What about that one bow hold that you put your thumb on the metal bottom part of the frog
+Sarah Violinist Never heard of that! Unless Im wrong, its incorrect to hold the frog.
+Sarah Violinist My teacher got me to do that as a kind of beginner's bow hold because it's just easy to hold without dropping it for a little kid. Once I got the hang of that, she moved my thumb to the usual spot. Hope that helps!
That is common fiddle hold
What you described is the Suzuki bow hold. That's what little children first learn in Suzuki Violin School until they're more comfortable and stronger with the bow. Then they move on with the Franco-Belgian bow hold.
I have no idea what the Suzuki bobw hold is, but the bow hold I do and demonstrate is a hybrid between the F-B and the Russian because of the tilting, but its mostly the F-B. All bow holds are very very similar as they are all held in more or less the same way.
Isn't the best bow grip is the one which maintains it perpedicular to the strings between the bridge and fretboard? Some of the old-time fiddlers had various holds to accomplish the correct position and produced their desired sound
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I used to use the bow hold that you use for my old original and my favourite bow, recently my bow hair broke and I can’t use my favourite bow anymore. Temporarily I got myself a cheap bow online from China, it’s heavier and thicker, and I can’t play nicely or comfortable with the old bow hold, been struggling since I got myself this cheap bow, with this bow I have to bring my bow hold higher, maybe because of the weight, I can play much better when I move my bow hold, and it’s still not the best, going to get myself a better proper bow, did check out a few, kinda expensive, saving to get them soon.
it sounds like a variant of one of the bow hold. There are literally hundreds.
I thought you were playing with more of the "Russian" style bow hold as a big part of the Belgium-Franco bow hold is having a flexible and rounded pinky. There are many wrong ways but there is no only way as you mentioned there are maybe 3 solid styles with pros and cons and maybe 5 viable bow holds
I laid down the violin for 25 years and my teacher insist on the Franco Belgian bow hold and I showed him the Russian bow hold and how it works better for me. He wants me to do the Franco Belgian because he want me to master it I figure. But my pinkie finger locks up when I try to place it on the top of the bow. It's like learning all over again. I can't seem to get it right to where I hold it lightly enough to be smooth. I got into some bad habits I'm trying to correct .. But I find myself trying to to put my fingers in the right place before beginning to play everytime. And I will tense up because I don't feel comfortable with it.
you mean double stopping? Playing 2 strings at once? I dont, but you just play 2 strings at once. I didnt think there was enough content to warrant a video as it really is a case of playing 2 strings at once.
All I know is that Suzuki used the old German bow hold. In the Franco-Belgian, the index finger rests between the middle and first joint, and the Russian rests between the base knuckles and middle joint.
But the German's index finger rests between the first and nail joint(?). If you seen pictures of Suzuki, you'll see that he holds the bow with his fingertips.
EDIT:
Found a picture.
sjwallin.files.wordpress.com/2005/06/suzuki.jpg?w=226
Do you have a video on how to learn to move the bow to another string as you play? You are very snappy.and accurate. Do you have a specific exercise to train that?
*continued* I first learned the russian bow hold, but then now my teacher uses franco-belgian and he taught me this bow hold. I'm still not able to use franco-belgian, hence now i'm somewhere in between, which is galamian bow hold lol (now i can use russian and galamian bow holds but still not able to use franco-belgian)
It is all a matter of how your hand is built. I have a short pinky, and it does not want to bend round. The ligament over the finger just moves different. It locks in place. I can bend ONLY the last joint and tge middle one stays straight as naildn So the pinky doesn't stay on the bow. It comes loose at the end of the down stroke. It's just too short.
I cope. I do whatever hurts least. You kniw. Follow your body.
I've always had problems with my bow hold because I have brachydactyly type D. ( BDD ) my thumb on my right hand is short and fat and my left is what would be considered a "normal" thumb. I have trouble fitting my thumb in the gap in the frog since it's so fat . ( I was taught to hold it like that )
I have a question. I was taught the Franco-Belgian bow hold, but my teacher taught me that I shouldn't let my index finger (bow hand) sort of flap around...like move up and down as the bow moves, she says that the bow will not stay straight, though I have found it to work for me (letting the index finger move) and have seen various violinists like Pinchas Zukerman and James Ehnes do this. What do you say?
I say that there are literally thousands and thousands of bow holds and no single bow hold is wrong or right. As long as you have the freedom to to all bowing techniques, then you are correct.
Is it normal for the thumb (between nail and knuckle) to touch the bottom of bow hair when playing? Or is it a no-no to touch the bow hair?
The treatment one gets for being the third woohooer...
And just where would you have me go? There's no better violin/piano tutor on this planet!!! :P
Thank you soo much for youur videos. You're really helping me start with my violin learning on my own!
I am used to the Franco Belgian grip, but my new tutor insists on using the Russian grip.
When I told him that I was taught this grip he told me "It's not wrong, but this grip will let you play better in the future when you're more advanced."
Now I must learn the Russian grip or I won't advance to the next level... ;-;
Do you have any recommendations on a good quality bow? Im an adult beginner and currently have only the bow sent in my starter pack...and I believe my technique will improve quicker with good quality equipment.
+Briana Halstead replied to your other comment on this.
My pinky finger Always flips backwards on the first knuckle. ALWAYS. I have some double joints I think. I don't know if I can hold it the way my teacher wants
So uhh my teacher told me to put my thumb not in between the rubber and the frog but inside frog
So now im used to it, is it still okay?
On the frog? That is not correct as you wont have the rest of your fingers in the correct position.
The Online Piano & Violin Tutor oh ok i will try to change my bow grip thx
The Online Piano & Violin Tutor hello i have come back with a new bow hold I personally now use the Franco-Belgian
and my sound has never been as good unlike my last bow hold idk but my old grip has a raspy sound.
There is also the Dave Swarbrick bow hold!
she: Everybody is right
me: girl u gotta see me hold the bow, i hold it from the frog
How do you stop having tension in the right hand? And how do you get rid of a shaky bow?
By letting the bow do a lot of the work. It's hard to explain. Easier to explain in a one-on-one lesson. The reason why (good/great) violinists hold their violin up at 90 degrees to the ground or slightly higher is so that the bow can be placed on the strings and just stay there. The weight of the bow itself when pulled over the strings is enough to make a basic sound. If your violin is pointing towards the ground then the bow slips off (towards the scroll) and in order to "fight gravity" you'd need to tense up your fingers and forearm more which is never good. Yes you do have to apply grip in the fingers, slight tension in the forearm and (rarely) the bicep for more difficult bowings like up-bow staccato.
Your fingers have to hold the bow very delicately to stop the shaking OR perhaps you're not pressing into the string with enough force and using a good speed of the bow. There's an exception (where the ol' saying "a workman never blames his tools!" just flies out the window) - a cheap bow can be very elastic in nature and this *will* shake and bounce and have a sort of ripple effect. An upgrade will help. A $500 bow is better and cheaper than seeing a GP and physiotherapist every week for 6 months at $75 a pop!
Pardon me for saying so, but it sounds to me like you *don't* have a teacher. Am I right? The nature of your questions suggests so. You see, I'm sure a one-on-one teacher would address these issues with you. Well... a good one would.
Feel free to request a video on certain techniques and I'll try to upload some videos soon to address such things. Have a good week :)
No, not double stopping.. changing strings. For example going from G on the D string to B on the A string. I know I need to practice, but wondered if you have a specific exercise to help that. You showed how to improve getting our fingers moving at the same time as the bow by playing D E F# G F3 E D etc over and over. Maybe this is too trivial.
you're back again! please go and never return! :)))))
Could you tell me which type is easy control for beginner?
+hkormac They are all basically the same, just depends on which you prefer and feel is most comfortable.
wich ever feels most natural, pick up a bow, and play, however you are holding it is your way of holding the bow.
I am a beginner. I've tried different bow holds. I have bigger hands. I've tried it with my pinky down and off the bow. When it's on I think I'm putting too much pressure down. It seems like I have more control and less bouncing with the pinky off but I want to learn it correctly. Does anyone else have this problem?
Sometimes Itzhak Perlman himself doesn't put the pinky on due to too much pressure.... but that's during fast passages.
The pinky is their just for support. It's not mandatory to have it sitting on top of the stick at all times. That is a myth. I would say during my last concert (an hour of solo playing), my pinky was on the bow only about 80% to 90% of the time, and I'm a *violist!*
I'm an adult learner going for grade 5. my teacher insists on Russian bow hold and I've been trying for weeks, I can't seem to get it
Try tilting a little less and perhaps have your fingers further doen on the stick? its not about what your teacher wants, but what you find and feel comfortable. As long as its a proper bow hold that allows you to manipulate and do all bowing techniques, then its fine.
Do they have an american or canadian bow grip?
I was taught this way but....it never get along....
a place where no-one can see you!
with the pointy end in your eye socket would be pretty wrong ;)
as I've told people with aspects of rat care, there's no ONE right way, but plenty of wrong ways.
There are definitely some "wrong" ways to hold the bow!
Grab a stick in the most NATURAL comfortable and stable way you would hold it, and use it as a sword or whatever. Then attempt to play your instrument with it. Now take your bow IN THE SAME WAY YOU HELD THE STICK and bowing is now natural, comfortable and stable.
Third time's a charm... WoooHooo!
i never would've known :/
I truly believe that your saying about Russian bow hold is far from reality, I do not know where you researched, but I urge you to look at videos of famous violinists and little students recitals to observe that there is not soever THAT tilting you talking about. What is there- is more active use of index finger to manipulate pressure.
+Svetlana kotenko-forte Hi there, where in the video do I say that the tilting is the Russian bow grip as im pretty sure Im saying that the tilting is more the Franco-Belgium bow grip....
well, it is clearly on 4-32
and then again on 5-43
I believe she got the russian bow grip correct.
dont worry there is no 'right' or 'wrong' and nothing is perfect.so i dont understand why teachers want it a specific way...i do none of the sort of main bow holds and im a beginner and im awesome...my teacher hates me because i do not do as told...bow wise
Anjellychan clan of the furry why bother going to a teacher then?
You are amazing, I was wondering if you can subscribe, you are the reson I love to play violin, keep making more vids !!
second woooo hoo! but a very informative video none the less ..woooo!
She's so hot!
First person to like and comment!! Wooooo!!!!!