Simon, pulled it out the bag again my friend, one of the best Chanels on watches, you really work hard to give great interviews. I can see a series of this type where you interview people involved in the industry. 👏🏼👌🏻Keep on chipping away. 12k views, come on watch fam, click the buttons!
In the video, you touched on the complacency of watch manufacturers in assuming their customer base will always be there; this is absolutely spot on. When I hear Thierry Stern speak dismissively about future Patek buyers, I can't help but feel that all of the big Swiss companies feel the same way. The whole Rolex AD experience, for example, is so off-putting that after being snubbed by my AD I took my Rolex money and bought an Omega Planet Ocean - a great watch (and I still had money left over). There are a lot of really good watches out there, many way more affordable than Patek and Rolex, which despite the company trying to hide sales figures is actually a hugely mass-produced product. Watch consumers are waking up to the fact that snobbery is not a sign of quality or exclusivity.
I completely agree. For me, Stern's comments were the height of arrogance and complacency. Reputation and brand equity have to be earned...but can also be lost if the brand forgets that the customer is the one paying their wages.
You buy a Rolex to impress others. But you buy an Omega to impress yourself. You’ll ultimately be more satisfied with your Omega than you would be with a Rolex. And yes, I have owned an Omega since 1998 and have purchased and gifted three Rolexes to others.
Agree fully, but the experience with Patek Philippe Boutiques is even worse! I had an experience with the PP boutique in Miami. Nobody was in the store, and I wanted to come in and introduce myself and view the models. The woman who greeted me at the door would not even let me into the showroom! Soured me on Patek right away since it was their own showroom. I wonder how many other "new" customers have been turned off by the same treatment I received.
@ this is the mark of a brand that thinks it’s infallible and destined to remain at the top spot forever. But pride comes before the fall. No brand can stay on top forever.
It's China...the country's economy is in turmoil and many people there don't have the money anymore to splurge on luxury goods. This has also affected the luxury car market.
I have only read Robin's articles in WatchPro, and never realized he has been in the industry for quite a while until this interview. I hope to see more of him on RUclips to gain better insight on watch industry trends. His comments on design are very spot on. The microbrands are bringing out "new" designs which get my attention (and dollars). For example, Baltic and Toldano & Chan are the only 2 brands that I am aware of bringing back stone dials. Stone dials are amazingly attractive and colorful, and I hope influence other brands to use stone dials in their offerings.
For me, 99% of microbrands just don't work on ANY level & yes of course, there are exceptions such as anOrdain, which are already a very hard to get, long waiting lists & four figure sums to match & a few of the Baltic range, but other than that, I feel absolutely NOTHING for them & particularly the anodyne Christopher Ward & as the man said, each to his own & just my very humble personal opinion....
After buying a few quartz watches in the late 80s while growing up, I bought one of the Heuer Carrera '60s chronograph replicas in 1995, as Robin highlighted, the vintage style thing has been with us for a very long time.
Guys, if you enjoy this interview please give it a Like 👍 and check out my other interview episodes with Max Büsser of MB&F, Andrew McUtchen, George Bamford, Christophe Hoppé et al 🙏🙏
I’m also tired of “Limited Editions”. That overused buzz phrase intends nothing but to try to maintain consumer interest. Except that you can’t get one anyway and as a result, limited editions absolutely do not endear customers to a watchmaker. Instead they irritate consumers.
I think you are both talking rubbish personally. Some collaborations are for worthwhile charities. If you find that an abomination then you are somewhat deranged!
Robin has a very gentlemanly way of explaining to us that the watches are just too flaming expensive. 🙂 Also, with the Swiss Franc keeping steady while other currencies are fluctuating this is also a problem. Some currencies have fallen off a cliff, so the Swiss are living in some interesting times indeed. Then with JLC increasing the price of the Reverso by 40%, just how would this attract new buyers. The Swiss bankers cannot afford for their currency to drop, so this will keep the cost of manufacture high as Robin also noted. I'm in my 50's and just because someone company raises its price on a watch doesn't want to make me want it more. We are getting old enough to not be duped as Robin stated about Gen-Z, so the Swiss do have some thinking to do. Interesting too that Seiko is raising its prices to be more exclusive, but that is not working out too well either. They put a $3,300 USD price tag on their new King Seiko (and of course another limited edition) with nothing that noteworthy to pay that kind of money more. I would buy the new "The Citizen" model AQ6110-10L first. interestingly enough, I the Maen Manhattan 39 I ordered came right before my new Yachtmaster that I ordered arrived at my AD. I was just exited about that watch than I was the Yachtmaster, so the micro brands can make some headway if they play their cards right.
King Seiko's are not made to sell in large quantities. Same goes for the Presage Craftsmanship Series. Their most popular watches are sub 1200 USD. There is zero evidence that Seiko's price increases are turning people off the brand. They are still doing extremely well. For how long, time will tell, but the fact that King Seiko's aren't selling well is meaningless.
Completely agree. Robin's comments about the price to value equation are spot on. To me it feels like there's a disconnect between the way many brands are raising RRPs and the increasing importance consumers are placing on value - maybe even above the brand name on the dial. Some of the microbrands have been able to offer the right combination of design, value and just enough perceived exclusivity so that consumers don't care that it's not a prestigious Swiss brand. Studio Underd0g is just one example. Thanks for the insightful comment and hope you enjoyed the video 👍
Yes indeed, a very wonderful conversation & restrained too & as ONLY a conversation can be between two white, middle aged, middle class, comfortably off, Englishmen....
Thank you so much...usually these interviews don't get much traction on my channel but this one has taken off, which is testament to the quality of the guest rather than anything to do with me!!
@@Escapement24 For me the reasons why this interview of yours in particular ''has taken off'' is simply because the interviewee concerned has a wide spread knowledge of all aspects of the watch trade/business going back twenty years or so & explains things in an easily understandable & uncomplicated way & just as importantly if not more important, you let him speak without interruption(s) because he's a guest on your podcast & so the voice you should hear the most of in a forty minute or so interview is the guest's & not yours & in that regard you done brilliantly & last but not least, your guest is NOT selling us ANY kind of watch product & so is NOT influenced or motivated by commercial interests.
I would like to know what amount and kind of parts (low value obviously in order to comply with the ‘Swiss made’ label) Switzerland is sourcing from Asia. I think we all would be very surprised.
I ordered a new mesh replacement bracelet my Mido Oceant Star just recently. The label on the package from the Swatch Group said "Made in China", so I know the bracelets and straps are made there.
That’s the dirty little secret of the “Swiss” watch industry. Unless you for sure know the manufacturing provenance of a watch labeled “Swiss Made” you have to assume 40% by value is made in China (or Mauritius, or Thailand). Until the end of 2021 Omega was 100% Swiss Made: “Every part of an Omega watch is made in Switzerland, which goes far beyond the industry’s standard.” In 2022: “Omega is proud to include the Swiss Made mark on all of its watches,” which means up to 40% by value made in China. Et tu, Omega? I’ve been told by a few watch manufacturers that in the under ~usd$2k the vast majority of watches labeled “Swiss Made” are 40% by value Chinese.
Many "Swiss" brands have cases, bracelets, dials and hands made in China. Personally I don't have an issue with this if the quality remains high and it helps the brands to deliver value to the consumer. Movements are another matter IMO. Where I do take issue with it is when the value equation is skewed in the wrong direction. If you're paying "luxury" prices - let's say $5,000 and above - then you wouldn't be happy if you found out that the cost price of the watch was $500. There are certainly some brands who are close to this margin multiplier and that doesn't sit well with me.
@cedarcanoe If the only actual Swiss manufactured components were the balance spring and escapement, with every other piece made in China, that could qualify for the “Swiss Made” label. Swiss labor is some of the most expensive in the world, so for that under ~$2k watch it’s easy to get 60% by value of the watch and movement simply by assembling that Swiss balance spring and escapement with Chinese parts.
When the Cubitus was first introduced and subsequently dookied on by the masses, I thought for sure it was just a matter of time before enthusiasts would come around and make Patek's latest offering yet another unobtainable piece. But now I wonder. Not because of that arrogant garbage that Stern spewed out but like Robin mentioned, because it simply doesn't look good. It actually feels great on the wrist and looks much better in the metal (I tried on all 3 references a few weeks ago) but even the picture I took of it brings the Cubitus back down into uggo status. It'll be interesting to see if the Cubitus truly turns out to be a dud. And if it does become a dud, how much will it be worth in 20 years?
There's a saying apt for comments like those made by Gerald Ratner and Thierry Stern. -People may forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel.
Like so many others, I remember well Ratner's comments at the time & the fallout of how could he have been so stupid to apparently so wilfully & almost so maliciously, insult his customers with the most unfunniest & most uncomedic comments of all time & to basically say that those of a certain economic status, who perhaps had to save their hard earned to purchase an engagement ring or other piece of jewellery for a loved one from the then Ratner Group, had basically only bought ''total crap'' & to his complete credit in interviews that he has given & asked about his comments of over thirty years ago, he doesn't play the victim & instead ONLY blames himself for his personal ginormous economic crash since those times.
Some of the premium brands are, like any other luxury goods industry, trying to build and maintsin exclusivity. But they sometimes blurr the line and lean into elitism. Elitism works only when the excluded groups have envy. I think with the modern age democratization of opinion, envy is going to be scarce. And not caring about elitist brandings is going to be universal. The era of ego-hurting sales techniques is not going to last...
The fact that watches can be printed now and proper watch makers aren’t as necessary for complicated watches makes them a lesser asset as a store of value.
The way my experience has been is that i get treated well by the lower end brands and it just went downhill past a lot of the more expensive brands (except IWC, Zenith, Moser, JLC and VC these guys are awesome) and then the treatment got better again after you reach 25k+. I have had great experiences with Patek because I am not a hype chaser, its too bad that blockhead nepo manbaby Thierry Stern is their leader and it just puts me off.
just subscribed, I thought I had. This is an interesting video with Robin. Just my opinion; I think the price hikes in 2021-2023 by some brands have hurt them and contributing to a slow down today. Thing is they were told.
Thanks for the sub 🙏🙏🙏 and yes I agree, I used to want a Speedmaster and would've bought one at pre 2021 RRP. The current pricing has put me off as the value ratio is now way out of alignment.
@@Escapement24 This is more evidence I suppose because I have thought and done the exact same thing in that I have not bought because of the price increase and this has happened several times.
JLC is the biggest culprit. Massive increases for the Polaris and Reverso lines have really impacted their sales. I’ve had SAs confirm this. Just yesterday, I saw a JLC boutique with zero customers inside of it, while all other watch shops were packed.
@@richardwarren2024I was lucky enough to pick up a pink gold reverso from the London boutique with a substantial discount in late 2020 - irrespective of how much I desire the new steel blue dial monoface tribute I simply refuse to pay the better part of 10k for a steel reverso with a decades old movement!
Hi Joe, hard to say from the data available. It's clearly impacted by global economic events (2020 - COVID, 2024 - inflation/cost of living). More than other areas of the luxury industry? Not sure.
@@Escapement24interesting point about cost of living. The stock market has delivered 25%+ gains in the past 12 months. Many are significantly better off in the past many years. Important question, how many watches does your average Joe need?
Yes there has always been huge ups and downs. It's only a very recent phenomenon that timepieces have gained huge resell value. It's a concocted market created by fake hype and resellers. It's the Instagram social media era where extreme materialism has taken over. I remember times less than 20 years ago when these high end watches barely held their value. You couldn't expect to make money or hold value when you bought an expensive watch. It's nice to see that they are now considered collection pieces, but it also has completely ruined the buyers market, just as the same way the housing market is ruined. Total inflation and overvauled. There will be a huge recession coming soon that will put all these watch businesses in great risk of collapse and tbh it's needed. Cheers
The Daytona is the Crown’s coolest watch because they spent a lot of effort reworking an El Primero movement. I can’t believe a three-handed Patek goes for the same cost or more than a Daytona - you don’t even get near as much tech or water resistance. I’m a total pleb so what do I know?
What if I want to pass on my Patek to my son and he says to me: "Thanks dad, I'm not really into elitism and fine with my custom made microbrand watch..."?😂
Good conversation, Robin Swithinbank come accross as BS free and unpretentious. Somewhat unusual in the youtube watch community. Going to take a punt and say his watch is an Unimatic.
I have switched to Japanese watches. Partly because of the auction scandals where they made fraudulent vintage pieces, both Rolex and omega and attempted to sell them as authentic to themselves to drive up the price of their own brands.
I agree luxury goods are getting too expensive. This includes the car industry where since the pandemic, inflation, regulation etc prices have risen sharply but value retention is at an all time low putting people off changing. New Tech and driver aids together with EVs is distorting the market and not in a good way. When some luxury EVs value drops 50% after 6 months then there is a problem IMO. Watches could be following suit.
Swiss volumes may be down but surely Chinese sales are way up. They’re making luxury models as well and with their labor savings and manufacturing modernity it wouldn’t surprise if that’s where Gen-Z find their products.
The swiss already survived a gigantic crisis nowadays the Chinese are not as as a big as a treat as the japanese were, swatch is selling a plastic quartz watch for $260.
The Swiss watch industry was decimated by the quartz crisis and took over two decades to build back, but it is a resilient industry and we are in different times now
It's my favourite track to build anticipation...not sure if Home Depot use it for the same reason or just to sell screwdrivers but either way I think it works 😉
What a joke, Gen Z will never afford a Patek anyway. The elite will still love Patek and dont give a ... about the Stern interview. Ive tried the Cubitus on and its a wonderful watch. And wil be unavailable for years to come.
Things like Metas certification are largely irrelevant. Brand awareness is what will count, and the association that a brand represents that luxury reward. Clearly Rolex dominate that space currently, Cartier for the ladies market, and within the next 10 years you can expect Tag to make a major move into that space. Omega has its space story and James Bond story. These products are all irrelevant, and so the story or image that the brand projects, combined with attractive design will dictate the winners.
The James Bond connection can be problematic. Not everyone appreciates a metrosexual Bond, even dudes who play in same team wants a good story without politics
TAG Heuer are clearly trying to make moves upward - look at recent releases in the Monaco line as an example, with more complex movements, skeletonisation and of course higher pricing. Same goes for some of the more recent Carrera models. Whether they can successfully achieve this repositioning and grow sales at a higher price point is of course is another matter. Personally, I would like to see them be the brand that offers a new more affordable product line with a high value proposition, as Robin alluded to with a possible reintroduction of the original F1. I think the watch market is polarising and while we're well served by the big brands at $5K and above, we may soon end up with only microbrands left in the sub $2,000 space.
Swiss also have to compete with a smart watch. Look at the numbers of Apple Watches sold alone. This definitely had impacted the cheaper segment most, which was pumping a lot of watches sub 500, even sub 1000. To me that explains why the number of units has halved while the value stayed about the same for the past decade.
Too many grey dealers chasing less and less customers. Many will go to the wall. Rolex is adding to the problem as it is flooding an already saturated market. Prices can only fall. Too many sellers not enough buyers.
I enjoyed Stern's comments. Firstly, there's always going to be issues with translating loose spoken word from another language, and we can hardly expect everyone to deliver every statement with the care of formal written text. Secondly, it exposes the hypocrisy of us men, given that many of the same people buying Patek are also big supporters of the way in which, say, Trump comports himself in his campaigns, or how Elon Musk has been outspoken in defense of free speech, for example. We are all for these unapologetic leaders telling 'snowflakes' to shut up, but now our toys are thrown out of the pram when it's directed at us. He's proud of his design and he has every right to talk back to the so-called haters.
That's an interesting and thought-provoking way of looking at it 🤔 Personally, I felt his comments crossed the line in to arrogance. But if I were in his position, I'm not sure I can say I wouldn't have said the same!!
I have the cash to buy a Rolex, cash. I’ll pay 9K or around there for a SD43 in great lightly used condition w/box and papers. I’m not going to pay 14.2K for a tool watch in SS without complication beyond a He escape valve. Give us value, or GTFO.
Stupidity of C19, crypto bros and influencers massively inflated the watch bubble. Now back to normality. Watch is a tool. Be it Casio for $10 or Submariner for $10k - wear it with a pride.
I do think the rising crypto market in 2021 was one of several factors that helped to fuel the secondary watch market, less so sales of new watches. I think some of the brands saw the crazy surge ins secondary prices and thought that it gave them the green light to increase RRPs.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
Simon, pulled it out the bag again my friend, one of the best Chanels on watches, you really work hard to give great interviews. I can see a series of this type where you interview people involved in the industry. 👏🏼👌🏻Keep on chipping away. 12k views, come on watch fam, click the buttons!
Thank you (again!)...but wait til you see the next one coming later this week!
In the video, you touched on the complacency of watch manufacturers in assuming their customer base will always be there; this is absolutely spot on. When I hear Thierry Stern speak dismissively about future Patek buyers, I can't help but feel that all of the big Swiss companies feel the same way. The whole Rolex AD experience, for example, is so off-putting that after being snubbed by my AD I took my Rolex money and bought an Omega Planet Ocean - a great watch (and I still had money left over). There are a lot of really good watches out there, many way more affordable than Patek and Rolex, which despite the company trying to hide sales figures is actually a hugely mass-produced product. Watch consumers are waking up to the fact that snobbery is not a sign of quality or exclusivity.
I completely agree. For me, Stern's comments were the height of arrogance and complacency. Reputation and brand equity have to be earned...but can also be lost if the brand forgets that the customer is the one paying their wages.
The PO is an outstanding choice. Well done
You buy a Rolex to impress others. But you buy an Omega to impress yourself. You’ll ultimately be more satisfied with your Omega than you would be with a Rolex. And yes, I have owned an Omega since 1998 and have purchased and gifted three Rolexes to others.
Agree fully, but the experience with Patek Philippe Boutiques is even worse! I had an experience with the PP boutique in Miami. Nobody was in the store, and I wanted to come in and introduce myself and view the models. The woman who greeted me at the door would not even let me into the showroom! Soured me on Patek right away since it was their own showroom. I wonder how many other "new" customers have been turned off by the same treatment I received.
@ this is the mark of a brand that thinks it’s infallible and destined to remain at the top spot forever. But pride comes before the fall. No brand can stay on top forever.
It's China...the country's economy is in turmoil and many people there don't have the money anymore to splurge on luxury goods. This has also affected the luxury car market.
Even more important, Chinese leadership decided that showing of wealth is not accepted anymore.
I have only read Robin's articles in WatchPro, and never realized he has been in the industry for quite a while until this interview. I hope to see more of him on RUclips to gain better insight on watch industry trends. His comments on design are very spot on. The microbrands are bringing out "new" designs which get my attention (and dollars). For example, Baltic and Toldano & Chan are the only 2 brands that I am aware of bringing back stone dials. Stone dials are amazingly attractive and colorful, and I hope influence other brands to use stone dials in their offerings.
For me, 99% of microbrands just don't work on ANY level & yes of course, there are exceptions such as anOrdain, which are already a very hard to get, long waiting lists & four figure sums to match & a few of the Baltic range, but other than that, I feel absolutely NOTHING for them & particularly the anodyne Christopher Ward & as the man said, each to his own & just my very humble personal opinion....
After buying a few quartz watches in the late 80s while growing up, I bought one of the Heuer Carrera '60s chronograph replicas in 1995, as Robin highlighted, the vintage style thing has been with us for a very long time.
Guys, if you enjoy this interview please give it a Like 👍 and check out my other interview episodes with Max Büsser of MB&F, Andrew McUtchen, George Bamford, Christophe Hoppé et al 🙏🙏
I'm so tired of watch brand collaborations. The need to collaborate is a sign the brand can't do well enough on their own.
I’m also tired of “Limited Editions”. That overused buzz phrase intends nothing but to try to maintain consumer interest. Except that you can’t get one anyway and as a result, limited editions absolutely do not endear customers to a watchmaker. Instead they irritate consumers.
I think you are both talking rubbish personally. Some collaborations are for worthwhile charities. If you find that an abomination then you are somewhat deranged!
Robin has a very gentlemanly way of explaining to us that the watches are just too flaming expensive. 🙂
Also, with the Swiss Franc keeping steady while other currencies are fluctuating this is also a problem. Some currencies have fallen off a cliff, so the Swiss are living in some interesting times indeed. Then with JLC increasing the price of the Reverso by 40%, just how would this attract new buyers. The Swiss bankers cannot afford for their currency to drop, so this will keep the cost of manufacture high as Robin also noted.
I'm in my 50's and just because someone company raises its price on a watch doesn't want to make me want it more. We are getting old enough to not be duped as Robin stated about Gen-Z, so the Swiss do have some thinking to do.
Interesting too that Seiko is raising its prices to be more exclusive, but that is not working out too well either. They put a $3,300 USD price tag on their new King Seiko (and of course another limited edition) with nothing that noteworthy to pay that kind of money more. I would buy the new "The Citizen" model AQ6110-10L first.
interestingly enough, I the Maen Manhattan 39 I ordered came right before my new Yachtmaster that I ordered arrived at my AD. I was just exited about that watch than I was the Yachtmaster, so the micro brands can make some headway if they play their cards right.
I agree, JLC with their 40% increase has ensured that I will not own one of their watches. At least at retail.
King Seiko's are not made to sell in large quantities. Same goes for the Presage Craftsmanship Series. Their most popular watches are sub 1200 USD.
There is zero evidence that Seiko's price increases are turning people off the brand. They are still doing extremely well. For how long, time will tell, but the fact that King Seiko's aren't selling well is meaningless.
Completely agree. Robin's comments about the price to value equation are spot on. To me it feels like there's a disconnect between the way many brands are raising RRPs and the increasing importance consumers are placing on value - maybe even above the brand name on the dial.
Some of the microbrands have been able to offer the right combination of design, value and just enough perceived exclusivity so that consumers don't care that it's not a prestigious Swiss brand. Studio Underd0g is just one example.
Thanks for the insightful comment and hope you enjoyed the video 👍
How did you get on with the Maen manhattan I want to order one but I’m concerned about the fit
@@Escapement24 Yes, I loved the interview and many thanks!
What a wonderful conversation. Thank you for putting this together!
Thank you for that comment! 🙏
Yes indeed, a very wonderful conversation & restrained too & as ONLY a conversation can be between two white, middle aged, middle class, comfortably off, Englishmen....
@ it’s okay to enjoy things, Frank. Relax, pal.
@@albertorbinati5511 Where exactly did I say it wasn't ''okay to enjoy things?''
Great conversation and some honest & balanced commentary - love this format.👏🏼
Thank you so much...usually these interviews don't get much traction on my channel but this one has taken off, which is testament to the quality of the guest rather than anything to do with me!!
@@Escapement24 For me the reasons why this interview of yours in particular ''has taken off'' is simply because the interviewee concerned has a wide spread knowledge of all aspects of the watch trade/business going back twenty years or so & explains things in an easily understandable & uncomplicated way & just as importantly if not more important, you let him speak without interruption(s) because he's a guest on your podcast & so the voice you should hear the most of in a forty minute or so interview is the guest's & not yours & in that regard you done brilliantly & last but not least, your guest is NOT selling us ANY kind of watch product & so is NOT influenced or motivated by commercial interests.
I would like to know what amount and kind of parts (low value obviously in order to comply with the ‘Swiss made’ label) Switzerland is sourcing from Asia. I think we all would be very surprised.
I ordered a new mesh replacement bracelet my Mido Oceant Star just recently. The label on the package from the Swatch Group said "Made in China", so I know the bracelets and straps are made there.
That’s the dirty little secret of the “Swiss” watch industry. Unless you for sure know the manufacturing provenance of a watch labeled “Swiss Made” you have to assume 40% by value is made in China (or Mauritius, or Thailand). Until the end of 2021 Omega was 100% Swiss Made: “Every part of an Omega watch is made in Switzerland, which goes far beyond the industry’s standard.” In 2022: “Omega is proud to include the Swiss Made mark on all of its watches,” which means up to 40% by value made in China. Et tu, Omega? I’ve been told by a few watch manufacturers that in the under ~usd$2k the vast majority of watches labeled “Swiss Made” are 40% by value Chinese.
Many "Swiss" brands have cases, bracelets, dials and hands made in China. Personally I don't have an issue with this if the quality remains high and it helps the brands to deliver value to the consumer. Movements are another matter IMO.
Where I do take issue with it is when the value equation is skewed in the wrong direction. If you're paying "luxury" prices - let's say $5,000 and above - then you wouldn't be happy if you found out that the cost price of the watch was $500. There are certainly some brands who are close to this margin multiplier and that doesn't sit well with me.
@cedarcanoe If the only actual Swiss manufactured components were the balance spring and escapement, with every other piece made in China, that could qualify for the “Swiss Made” label. Swiss labor is some of the most expensive in the world, so for that under ~$2k watch it’s easy to get 60% by value of the watch and movement simply by assembling that Swiss balance spring and escapement with Chinese parts.
Fantastic interview, well done mate.
Thanks buddy, appreciate the support 🙏🙏🙏
When the Cubitus was first introduced and subsequently dookied on by the masses, I thought for sure it was just a matter of time before enthusiasts would come around and make Patek's latest offering yet another unobtainable piece. But now I wonder. Not because of that arrogant garbage that Stern spewed out but like Robin mentioned, because it simply doesn't look good. It actually feels great on the wrist and looks much better in the metal (I tried on all 3 references a few weeks ago) but even the picture I took of it brings the Cubitus back down into uggo status. It'll be interesting to see if the Cubitus truly turns out to be a dud. And if it does become a dud, how much will it be worth in 20 years?
There's a saying apt for comments like those made by Gerald Ratner and Thierry Stern.
-People may forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel.
Like so many others, I remember well Ratner's comments at the time & the fallout of how could he have been so stupid to apparently so wilfully & almost so maliciously, insult his customers with the most unfunniest & most uncomedic comments of all time & to basically say that those of a certain economic status, who perhaps had to save their hard earned to purchase an engagement ring or other piece of jewellery for a loved one from the then Ratner Group, had basically only bought ''total crap'' & to his complete credit in interviews that he has given & asked about his comments of over thirty years ago, he doesn't play the victim & instead ONLY blames himself for his personal ginormous economic crash since those times.
Some of the premium brands are, like any other luxury goods industry, trying to build and maintsin exclusivity. But they sometimes blurr the line and lean into elitism.
Elitism works only when the excluded groups have envy. I think with the modern age democratization of opinion, envy is going to be scarce. And not caring about elitist brandings is going to be universal.
The era of ego-hurting sales techniques is not going to last...
Very, very well put 👏
The fact that watches can be printed now and proper watch makers aren’t as necessary for complicated watches makes them a lesser asset as a store of value.
Totally agree about design > mechanics.
Great interview!
Thank you! 🙏
The way my experience has been is that i get treated well by the lower end brands and it just went downhill past a lot of the more expensive brands (except IWC, Zenith, Moser, JLC and VC these guys are awesome) and then the treatment got better again after you reach 25k+.
I have had great experiences with Patek because I am not a hype chaser, its too bad that blockhead nepo manbaby Thierry Stern is their leader and it just puts me off.
Could you please advise on the nice „ beige- color“ watch you are wearing in the interview. tx and regards from Berlin
Robin's watch is a Unimatic x Massena LAB collab piece
just subscribed, I thought I had. This is an interesting video with Robin. Just my opinion; I think the price hikes in 2021-2023 by some brands have hurt them and contributing to a slow down today. Thing is they were told.
Thanks for the sub 🙏🙏🙏 and yes I agree, I used to want a Speedmaster and would've bought one at pre 2021 RRP. The current pricing has put me off as the value ratio is now way out of alignment.
@@Escapement24 This is more evidence I suppose because I have thought and done the exact same thing in that I have not bought because of the price increase and this has happened several times.
JLC is the biggest culprit. Massive increases for the Polaris and Reverso lines have really impacted their sales. I’ve had SAs confirm this. Just yesterday, I saw a JLC boutique with zero customers inside of it, while all other watch shops were packed.
@@richardwarren2024 I must admit I have heard the exact same thing from other people.
@@richardwarren2024I was lucky enough to pick up a pink gold reverso from the London boutique with a substantial discount in late 2020 - irrespective of how much I desire the new steel blue dial monoface tribute I simply refuse to pay the better part of 10k for a steel reverso with a decades old movement!
Interesting video Simon,different from a watch review,do you think watch industry have peaks and troughs?
Hi Joe, hard to say from the data available. It's clearly impacted by global economic events (2020 - COVID, 2024 - inflation/cost of living). More than other areas of the luxury industry? Not sure.
@@Escapement24interesting point about cost of living. The stock market has delivered 25%+ gains in the past 12 months. Many are significantly better off in the past many years. Important question, how many watches does your average Joe need?
Yes there has always been huge ups and downs. It's only a very recent phenomenon that timepieces have gained huge resell value. It's a concocted market created by fake hype and resellers. It's the Instagram social media era where extreme materialism has taken over. I remember times less than 20 years ago when these high end watches barely held their value. You couldn't expect to make money or hold value when you bought an expensive watch. It's nice to see that they are now considered collection pieces, but it also has completely ruined the buyers market, just as the same way the housing market is ruined. Total inflation and overvauled. There will be a huge recession coming soon that will put all these watch businesses in great risk of collapse and tbh it's needed. Cheers
Just stick with Rolex GMTs and Subs and the DayDate-they last forever and have basically zero problems. Avoid the hype of AP and Patek-
The Daytona is the Crown’s coolest watch because they spent a lot of effort reworking an El Primero movement. I can’t believe a three-handed Patek goes for the same cost or more than a Daytona - you don’t even get near as much tech or water resistance. I’m a total pleb so what do I know?
Really cool interview 👏👏
Thanks so much, but Robin was definitely the star here!
What if I want to pass on my Patek to my son and he says to me: "Thanks dad, I'm not really into elitism and fine with my custom made microbrand watch..."?😂
There's every possibility...!
If celebrities can be canceled for indecent behavior what’s hold back on canceling Patel, AP and Rolex for their sleazy customer care
Good conversation, Robin Swithinbank come accross as BS free and unpretentious.
Somewhat unusual in the youtube watch community.
Going to take a punt and say his watch is an Unimatic.
I have switched to Japanese watches. Partly because of the auction scandals where they made fraudulent vintage pieces, both Rolex and omega and attempted to sell them as authentic to themselves to drive up the price of their own brands.
This guy has a voice for radio
I agree luxury goods are getting too expensive. This includes the car industry where since the pandemic, inflation, regulation etc prices have risen sharply but value retention is at an all time low putting people off changing. New Tech and driver aids together with EVs is distorting the market and not in a good way. When some luxury EVs value drops 50% after 6 months then there is a problem IMO. Watches could be following suit.
Let's see price reductions on RRP.
Swiss volumes may be down but surely Chinese sales are way up. They’re making luxury models as well and with their labor savings and manufacturing modernity it wouldn’t surprise if that’s where Gen-Z find their products.
I doubt Gen Z is much into mechanical watches.
The swiss already survived a gigantic crisis nowadays the Chinese are not as as a big as a treat as the japanese were, swatch is selling a plastic quartz watch for $260.
Not to me
The Swiss watch industry was decimated by the quartz crisis and took over two decades to build back, but it is a resilient industry and we are in different times now
There's nothing 'recession' about ending Patek and moving that resources to good designers :)
Why did this start with the home depot music?
It's my favourite track to build anticipation...not sure if Home Depot use it for the same reason or just to sell screwdrivers but either way I think it works 😉
What a joke, Gen Z will never afford a Patek anyway.
The elite will still love Patek and dont give a ... about the Stern interview.
Ive tried the Cubitus on and its a wonderful watch.
And wil be unavailable for years to come.
Things like Metas certification are largely irrelevant. Brand awareness is what will count, and the association that a brand represents that luxury reward. Clearly Rolex dominate that space currently, Cartier for the ladies market, and within the next 10 years you can expect Tag to make a major move into that space. Omega has its space story and James Bond story. These products are all irrelevant, and so the story or image that the brand projects, combined with attractive design will dictate the winners.
The James Bond connection can be problematic. Not everyone appreciates a metrosexual Bond, even dudes who play in same team wants a good story without politics
Why will Tag move into that space? Based on what evidence?
TAG Heuer are clearly trying to make moves upward - look at recent releases in the Monaco line as an example, with more complex movements, skeletonisation and of course higher pricing. Same goes for some of the more recent Carrera models. Whether they can successfully achieve this repositioning and grow sales at a higher price point is of course is another matter.
Personally, I would like to see them be the brand that offers a new more affordable product line with a high value proposition, as Robin alluded to with a possible reintroduction of the original F1.
I think the watch market is polarising and while we're well served by the big brands at $5K and above, we may soon end up with only microbrands left in the sub $2,000 space.
What watch is Robin wearing ?
I've been wondering the same ha! I noticed it on the day and meant to ask
@Escapement24 You need to ask him otherwise I could go mad trying to find it 😂
@paulclark147 I will!
Could it be a Unimatic?
@aurelius388 that was my guess too
Is Robin wearing a Unimatic ?
Yes, he confirmed it's their collab with Massena Lab after the same question arose earlier in the comments!
@ nice. Very mojave :)
@kahsings 100%....and coincidental that I used a clip of the Mojave in my intro!
@ nice one :)
Swiss also have to compete with a smart watch. Look at the numbers of Apple Watches sold alone.
This definitely had impacted the cheaper segment most, which was pumping a lot of watches sub 500, even sub 1000.
To me that explains why the number of units has halved while the value stayed about the same for the past decade.
Too many grey dealers chasing less and less customers. Many will go to the wall. Rolex is adding to the problem as it is flooding an already saturated market. Prices can only fall. Too many sellers not enough buyers.
I enjoyed Stern's comments. Firstly, there's always going to be issues with translating loose spoken word from another language, and we can hardly expect everyone to deliver every statement with the care of formal written text. Secondly, it exposes the hypocrisy of us men, given that many of the same people buying Patek are also big supporters of the way in which, say, Trump comports himself in his campaigns, or how Elon Musk has been outspoken in defense of free speech, for example. We are all for these unapologetic leaders telling 'snowflakes' to shut up, but now our toys are thrown out of the pram when it's directed at us. He's proud of his design and he has every right to talk back to the so-called haters.
That's an interesting and thought-provoking way of looking at it 🤔
Personally, I felt his comments crossed the line in to arrogance. But if I were in his position, I'm not sure I can say I wouldn't have said the same!!
"You can't gaslight Gen Z" 😂
I have the cash to buy a Rolex, cash.
I’ll pay 9K or around there for a SD43 in great lightly used condition w/box and papers.
I’m not going to pay 14.2K for a tool watch in SS without complication beyond a He escape valve.
Give us value, or GTFO.
SD 43 is a great value
@ At around 8500 it would be.
At 14.2, I’m tempted to buy a Pelagos and call it a day.
pelagos is awesome get the LHD one and wait out rolex prices to come down
Thierry Stern is a nepo baby and talks like one. He not only got a divorce from Sandrine but also reality.
Stupidity of C19, crypto bros and influencers massively inflated the watch bubble. Now back to normality. Watch is a tool. Be it Casio for $10 or Submariner for $10k - wear it with a pride.
I do think the rising crypto market in 2021 was one of several factors that helped to fuel the secondary watch market, less so sales of new watches. I think some of the brands saw the crazy surge ins secondary prices and thought that it gave them the green light to increase RRPs.
Great interview!
Thank you!! 🙏🙏