Post Lapping Shots and Thoughts
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- So we were able to get out to the range and shoot Matt's 20" AR. The results are interesting. Let me know what ya'll think.
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I don’t think 3 shot groups are telling you anything. Shoot 5 or 10 shot groups and include all shots. It balances out shooter error.
I don’t think you can say it was better or worse unless you see 20% size change or more.
Shoot 5 groups with everything the same and you probably have that much variance anyway.
That sounds good until you have to pay for the ammo. I hear what your saying though.
@@CalebDowning He's absolutely right. Not willing to put out the proper amount of shots to yield proper averages sort of negates the test.
If you can't afford to shoot the rifle don't half ass the test and just wait
@@CalebDowningI appreciate the effort for RUclips but go big or go home
We lapped our uppers in the armorer/gunsmith class I took with SOTAR. When you first start lapping, you'll notice the raw aluminum ring start to form unevenly, that's because the upper face wasn't square to the tool. Once you get to where there is raw aluminum showing in a complete ring, you're done. That continuous ring is the newly squared surface that the barrel extension will index on. It doesn't matter if its wider on one side or another, that's just an indicator that your receiver was in fact - not square. The surface itself, regardless of the width of the raw aluminum ring maybe not matching, is now square and will improve accuracy. I like to air on the side of removing less material than more.
Exactly info, thanks! 😎🤙
Guys, I like to leave the smallest anodizing mark possible. Yes, it’s still 100% true. It lets the future user know you didn’t bubba the upper. (SOTAR class of 2022).
I lap and bed the barrels on every build I do. It might not make a huge difference but if you're already building out the upper and not having to tear apart anything just to do it I can't think of a single reason not to do.
Exactly 👌 well said!
Do I use green loctite
@@Devanzo321 yeah its green loctite... I forgot the number on the bottle it's 620 or 629 or something like that you should be able to find the exact kind with a simple search.
@@DanielBoone337 ok I have some 609 on hand I wonder if that would work
@@Devanzo321 I just looked it up and it was 620 even checked to see what I had and it was 620 also. That said the only difference between 620 and 609 is temperature ratings... 620 is good for up to 450+ degrees and 609 is good for up to 300 degrees... I don't know how hot the barrel extention actually gets but I don't think it's over 450 degrees and doubt it even gets 300 degrees unless you have access to a full auto lower and a metric $h!t ton of ammo. LOL hope that helps!!
It would be interesting to know what the twist rate on both those rifles.
Both were 1-7. Mine is a Douglas SS barrel and Matt’s is a PSA chrome molly vanadium.
The faster the twist , the better they stabilize heavier bullets. Can't wait to see when you start slinging the heavier slugs. Lapping may narrow the over all use of bullet weights for best accuracy. ???
True. And yes I think your on to something. I think lapping brings out the accuracy of your upper and with that “bringing out” it does seem to kick it’s less favorable loads(bullet weights) to the side.
Interesting.
@@orionfixr7713 I don't think twist rate matters so much. I've shot 77 gr out of 1:9 twist on my channel with good accuracy out to 567 yards. None of my guns have been lapped. All factory rifles.
Think you would have seen a bigger difference had you shot more groups and more rounds per group. Or if you reload work up a really good reload find a bullet the barrel really likes then lap the receiver and reshoot the same stuff.
There's this idea in archery, that if a bow isn't timed and tuned as best as one can get, you'll have accuracy issues. Many people spend more time tuning their bow in frustration than shooting their bow while working on correct form. However, some of the pros have stated that if there's error in the bow, you'll have the same error consistently and, therefor can adjust your sights accordingly eliminating any issues. I think it's tempting to chase accuracy issues because we don't know what we're doing wrong, or what's wrong with the rifle, if we don't see what we want to see.
I don't think it makes a difference. What matters is that the receiver threads are square with the face, not the receiver bore. Also, consider the barrel nut. How do we know that part is square? Trying to "true" one part without consideration for everything else is just flying blind.
Proofs in the pudding 🤷♂️ Each to their own. It all depends on what your trying to accomplish.
i really do not see a difference with bedding ar barrels, especially using loctite. Once you torque the barrel nut on, its pressed tightly on the lip Thats machined flat on the barrel and the receiver. You also squeeze the upper slightly around the barrel extension. So if anything lap your upper (if needed) and call it good. If your upper is super loose on your barrel, its time to get a new upper...
I hear you. It’s a minute difference to bed the barrel. It’s something a bench test shooter or extreme accuracy chaser would do. For the vast majority of us though, it’s completely unnecessary.
Scream all ya want . i took my 16" pencil barrel and swapped it out for a 24" wyldy TARGET Crown bull barrel. Hole in hole.👍
Took pencil barrel got blem upper reciver and it was sloppy and loose. I took jb wield and bedded it torque it to 72lbs. Hung it upside down 24 hrs. The groups went from 1" to 2" @ 25yrd to touching and hole dime size groups. Also added a Jerry Miculeks muzzle break. Shoots flat groups well now. I beat the whip. Call it hillbilly if you like but it works now. Free floating pencil that's writing a great love story now. LMFAO
Haha, I love it 😁#garagegunsmithing
@@CalebDowning brother it worked great better than the green locktite. If you can use it on a motor head the heat is about the same. Im not planning on removing it so mix smear a good coating put it in wipe the excesses off barrel nut torqued to 72lbs it is now truer than before its my close battle upper for hogs and home. My long distance upper is 24" target crown bull barrel wyldy chambered 10x40 50mm scope up close is not fast as its 10 power in the basement. My other is got a 551 eotech clone on it and a night vision monocular mounted as well as a green laser its cqb ready. Fast and accurate.
I would say it depends on the initial barrel quality. It would be a shame to lap a Kreiger or Obermeyer barrel, considering they are hand lapped at the source.
I’m not lapping the barrel, I’m lapping the upper receiver. I have yet to lapp a bore.
You’re trying to overcome tolerance stacking when you accurize any ar platform. You still need quality components.
You should consider the bullet grain match to the barrels rifling to stabilize and maximize spin rate to enhance accuracy starting off. What bullet does the like? Also, i would shoot a minimum of 5 rounds each to establish a baseline shooting from a cold to hot barrel to see if your groups get tighter or more loose. Anyway, it was an interesting test. Thanks
Good points man, thanks for the tips 👍
There are too many variables to denote these changes down to lapping. You can install a barrel correctly, shoot several 10 shot groups and get a good approximation of a rifle's accuracy. You can then remove the barrel, reinstall it correctly again, shoot the same number of 10 round groups and get different numbers. It's impossible to disassemble a rifle to change something without changing several other things. On a theoretical level it makes a small difference, but to demonstrate such it would take a sample size much larger than any of us have the ability to produce. On my high accuracy builds I lap my receivers based on the mathematical theory alone as practical proof is unobtainable.
Well said. I believe accuracy is the cumulative effect of many factors. hard to measure.
In American Gunsmith last month Joe Carlos said that he doesn't lap his receivers anymore because it causes spawlling. All of his articles are great and I get from them that all of his tips need to be applied as a holistic build procedure to get those significant gains in accuracy.
Hmm 🤔 well I guess we’ll see what happens to the builds I lapped then.
So lapping might give you a slight increase in accuracy until the removal of the anodizing causes the aluminum to weaken and chip. Then you’re in a worse spot than before.
Do you have this article? Id like to read it
Great vid brother, informative as always✊
Thanks man.
Turn your volume up, barely hear you.
If your watching this on a Mac, I’d highly suggest getting “Boom 3D”. Best audio upgrade for Macs.
I don’t have a volume knob on my recording device 🤷♂️
If you have any play in your receivers you can loc tite them aka bed them and possibly help with rigidity a lot of people use red or green but I would use blue because I don’t think the red is that much better
We did that on both the rifles. I believe we used #620, it was green.
Outdoor range in the wind? Invalid. Next!
Yes sir 👍 Outside in the wind, humidity, sun, and any other elements at play 😁☀️💨
shooting 3 shots before and after literally tells you absolutely nothing. especially with the optic i saw on the table
🤷♂️
Well, we did the best with what we had…
Hay good morning!! Thanxs for clarifying my buddy told me about lapping n now you say the same , l want to get into 3 gun and now l want to lapp. My upper as well , thanxs for clarifying!! Proof is in the pudding!! Valid point!!! Cool!! 😀
If your going for accuracy and have the tools then I’d say go for it 👍
What lapping bar do you use?
I got one from Brownells.
Twist rate, barrel length and barrel manufacturer please.
Good morning Caleb.. What did you say the distance was to your target..? Also did you use a gun rest..?
Distance was at 100yds and yes, my buddy used a rest. I didn’t use one for my rifle though.
I’m not so worried about the number of shots, what I would like to know sir is are you still happy with that high caliber sales barrel now that you’ve had it a while? I’m planning a mk12(ish) build of my own, more a precision AR built based on the mk12. I’m going back and forth between the high caliber sales barrel and the compass lake Engineering barrel. They are both Douglass barrels, one is the 5.56 chamber optimized for mk 262 ammo and the compass lake barrel is 223 Wylde. Was just curious to get your thoughts.
Your gonna hate me... I sold my first Mod1 and build a second one 😬 so now days I only have the Compass Lake barreled Mod1.
The Compass Lake barrel has their CLE Match chambering and I’ve had no issues with it. Either barrel will work well for you. If you were going for a clone I’d say try and get the HCS, but since you sound like you aren’t cloning then go for the CLE and save a few bucks perhaps 🤷♂️
Caleb Downing why would I hate you?! You have experience with both barrels I have been considering now! I hope you don’t mind a couple more questions about them. You mentioned no issues with the CLE match chamber, so it will handle 5.56 not just .223? I shoot mainly 5.56 ammunition and would prefer a 5.56 capable chamber. Also, how did the performance/accuracy of the HCS barrel compare to the CLE barrel? Hope I’m not too much of a bother. Thanks.
My understanding is that the CLE Match can handle 5.56 just fine. I mainly shoot 5.56 out of it as well. I have some had loads that I shoot for groups and just plain American eagle the rest of the time.
As far as one barrel being better than the other, they both shot so similar that I don’t think I could tell a difference. Off the top of my head I can’t think of one shooting better than the other.
It will take me a bit to check but I’ll try and pull some older targets and see if there was much of a difference in group size(that is if I can find the targets and if they are marked properly).
Caleb Downing thanks for the info man! Tells me all I need to know, no need to dig up old targets. If they are that similar and I’m not trying to make an exact clone like you say I may as well save the money and get the CLE. Thanks man, appreciate it! Enjoy the channel by the way, good stuff.
Glad to be of help man 👍 Thanks for the support!
Good Stuff!!! Good Content!!!
Thanks man 👍
Could have just been a better barrel in your gun or you were shooting better. Should have shot both rifle’s before and after lapping.
That’s what we did. There’s a part 1 that you probably didn’t see. ruclips.net/video/I-xfnWSL6hQ/видео.html
Does accuracy testing at 100 yards really mean anything? Isn’t it possible to shoot down sized groups at 100 and see it isn’t shooting shit further out?
It’s a measurable standard. We can always get more technical in our testing but this is a simple and repeatable test.
Caleb Downing No I get it. It’s hard for me to get past 200 where I’m at, but I’m not convinced shooting dimes at 100 yards really means I have a sub moa gun.
Wouldn't it be nice if his gun liked Wolf steel case or Tula........Never know unless he keeps testing.
I feel like lapping is more to make your barrel come straight out of the receiver. Accuracy might stay the same, but you won't have to move your sights very far from mechanical zero.
You are correct on what lapping does. It allows the the barrel to match up to the upper with 100% contact on the lapped surface. This does allow the barrel to match up more inline but it also allows the barre to be torqued down properly.
Basically if you have any imperfections on the receiver and then go to mount your barrel, your torque is going to focus on that imperfection and it will act as a fulcrum. Depending on how severe the imperfection is will determine how much the barrel can shift even after properly torqued.
The average AR owner will never even notice this, even when shooting for groups on paper. The ones who really get nerdy about this are your target and competition shooters. If you are trying to remove any possible negative influence on your rifles accuracy, then lapping is a no brainer.
Is it for everyone? Nope, but I like to do it when I can 👍
I hope that made sense.
5 shot groups next time please.
Lapping an already decent barrel will give you little improvement and your 3 shot groups are much too small to make a proper assessment. You need a borescope to assess the barrel before and after lapping. Rough Barrels with tooling marks will definitely benefit from lapping but a bore that was just tight enough to group good in its caliber size might just open up this tiny bit to shoot worse than before lapping. It all comes down to proper inspection and exact measurements. Commercial lapped barrel makers therefore start with barrels that are a few ten-thousands tighter than the final product.
They're lapping the receiver, not the barrel.
3" groups are not good!!! ooohh 6" groups never mind can see why your happy with 3" !!!
😂
I know right 🤦♂️
Great video. You should seriously consider reloading your own ammo.
Thanks man. I’m actually working on a 5.56 load right now 👍
Try 55gn hornady FMJ with 25 grain H335 with CCI 400 primers. It's the most accurate I've foundin 1/7 Palmetto uppers.
just1more
What brass and OAL?
I'm using Lake city brass with OAL 2.2050. Every chamber is different so I would suggest starting at that length then adjust OAL to fit your particular 5.56 chamber. Hope this helps.