I see a lot of people handing out very unhelpful and negative feedback. I appreciate your opinions and the time you spent into filming this for us. I think some of the detachments are slept on and havent had anyone crazy enough to fully commit into playing them with a weird, janky unusual list design that catches people off guard.
Fellhammer with Fabius Bile & Chosen, a Bullwork Termie Lord & Terminators, two units of melee Legionaries with Sorcerers then fill out the rest with Oblits and Forgefiends. You have two very solid anchor units that are both T5 with 3 wounds at -1 to wound and a once per turn damage shrug. That's very durable. The Legionaries go into the mid field to screen and contest objectives. They are -1 to hit (always) and -1 to wound against shooting. You can always drop the 5+ FNP ability anywhere you need. I think this is pretty good.
I think people really undervalue Battleshock. There’ve been plenty of times where I’ve needed a unit dead and my opponent CP Rerolled a critical save, or I need to charge something and they have a very strong melee stratagem, or even just Overwatch. I probably won’t be playing Night Lords any time soon unless I sell my Eldar, but I’m really enjoying the sound of the Dread Talons detachment
Dread Talons is absolutely going to be something people win RTTs with, it's just not consistent enough to really be reliable over 5 or 7 rounds. It would be so much better if it'd been designed like "Reroll Hits, if Battleshocked also reroll Wounds," for its strats.
The problem is that battleshocked alone does almost nothing. The game is won by either outlasting the opponent’s killingpower or by killing the opponent’s force faster than they can kill your’s. The detachment does nothing in that regard. Yes, there are stratagems but there’s no extra CP so those again do practically nothing. 🤷🏼♂️
Gonna be honest, as newbie for actually playing the game instead (because over the laat few years I played a full 5 games) Renegade Raiders just seems very nice as a quality of life Detachment The detachment rule is always active, no need to think much about it and the strats just work Still going to try the Dread Talons as a NL fan but Raiders seem to work great for what I have in mind
Plague Marines and Rubrics also get quite a lot better in Renegades. Assault Flamers with extra AP makes them almost good enough for their points (pity about the lack of transport options).
Why you would want to kill one guy to deploy a lord: if the bigger base doesnt fit (because you made a ring), you place him outside and suddenly you get a 7 inch charge, or 5 inch in a 10 man unit
In Dread Talons I'm thinking about bringing either x2 or maybe x3 of Poxbingers with Plaguebearer. 10 OC² T5, 5++ all the time, and they can make objectives sticky... Plus the Pox bringer make your opponent -1 leadership whenever they take a battle-shock test within 6", but more importantly when your opponent tries to steal the objective he gives the Plaguebearer 5+ Critical hit (Lethals). For only 165pts per attached unit.
Dead talon has so many options to add BS within and out of the army. Wing Deamon prince, Vashtorr, raptor leadership. Noise marines. Plagbearers w/Poxbringer. Blue Horror w/Changecastor or Changling. Knight Abominant.
Its kinda funny, in the soulforged warpack section when hes talking about being surprised by a strat that lasts for the rest of the game, i couldnt help but think of eye of the gods for pactbound zealots which permanently pumps one of your characters for the rest of the game
Fellhammer with an inner core of Abaddon+10 Chosen and 3 Havoc Squads, screen with Cultists, have Raptors or Warp Talons pinning things down. Use remaining points for Terminators and/or Vindicators?
Thanks for the breakdown. I’m glad you elaborated on Deceptors a bit from the last video and can hopefully temper some of the copium that people are huffing about the detachment. As you correctly pointed out infiltrate is not guaranteed, functional, or even wanted in all cases with multiple units, which functionally leaves you without a detachment rule. The tricks and shenanigans people keep drooling over are, as you guys said, often not all that beneficial. The effort to pull of all these swaps and trickery are often not going to net you enough results to justify the effort. People need to understand that the average unit is noticeably weaker without exploding 5s all the time from the index detachment. If you don’t have other detachment rules to compensate for that power wise, you’re going to have a bad time. I hope people can make it work, I’d love to be wrong because I love alpha legion, but I’m just not seeing this being a consistently strong detachment.
I think it's a good detachment with Terminators. If 2 of your units made a charge (even a rhino just to move block etc), you can have a pack of terminators +2 in charge the turn wich they deep strike for 1CP, add a Sorcerer in Terminator armor and you have a charge at 7 + re-roll. You can even have a pack of terminators lead by the Chaos Lord in terminator that try to charge after and can have a +3 in charge for 0CP as this strat is a Battle Tactic (as long as your charge at 7 + re-roll is sucessfull). This is maybe the best detachment to reliably deep strike + charge in this book.
@@elvadrieclya that’s about the main strat I’m going to be going for. It’s like try to move block or primary pressure with infiltrators if possible and then try to get a deep strike/charge off with termies or talons.
Planning on running the cultist detachment with armiger knight allies and a winged daemon prince if I end up having the points after the infantry masses+characters. A daemon engine or two if possible? Idk I like the idea of an undivided darktide
Deceptors would be cool if they could take x points (depend of total point army) allies units of space marines. Because alpha legion infiltratet a lot of legions.
I am thinking those low damage detachments really depend on Abaddon to boost some of the damage dealers in the army. Hoping for a points drop on him now that he doesn't affect Damned units and lost all his marks.
Do you think people are gonna run him with the full terminator brick or just 5 chosen now? I have an alpha legion army with FW alpharius as a proxy, and I can't wait to run that detachment.
@@Sgt.Dornan My guess is 5 Chosen to give him extra threat range. There is just no synergy with terminators without the marks. Very cool to use Primarch as proxy for Aba!
Putting dreadtalon detachment over the Fellhammer is a wild take. I would much rather have pseudo-transhuman for my whole army and a solid set of defence buffs so I can stand on primary and win, and take efficient units like Vindicators that still do plenty of damage and mobile units like Warp Talons for secondaries (that can also be given defence buffs) - as opposed to a gimmicky set of rules that are inconsistent to translate into actual damage (and several armies just don't give af about battleshock anyway) while not getting any compensation in the way of other buffs.
fellhamer should get the main rule to both phase meaby not the FNP one but at least the minus one to wound and pleaaase inverse the pitiless cannonade strat or tweet him to be like the ironstorm one
As good as the Speedpaints and Fanatics are, the Cans are massively inferior to those made by Shitadel or Vallejo. The tools are decent, though. Especially for the price.
I don't like the Dread detachment play very much. Yes, a 3" deepstrike into a -2 Battleshock test should work out. But if your opponent rolls that 9+, you wasted 1CP and a unit of Raptors.
I dont get the pro battle shock argument. Iv never had it cost me a game, iv never really had it ve more then a little annoying once in a while. I would never play a detachment around the current battle shock. I do like NL and it's thematic but its second last for me.
Ranking the pactbound so high when they are in almost every way nerfed index detachment that was competing for the spot of the worst performing army is somewhat hilarious.
@@AponeX86XWell, it had around 50% win rate, and was nerfed all around, so yeah, unless there are some significant points drop, I do believe the index detachment will be worse than most youtubers are rating it.
I see a lot of people handing out very unhelpful and negative feedback.
I appreciate your opinions and the time you spent into filming this for us. I think some of the detachments are slept on and havent had anyone crazy enough to fully commit into playing them with a weird, janky unusual list design that catches people off guard.
Deceptors that low is pretty surprising to me, theres a LOT of play in that detachment.
Ill be using the Iron Warriors and daemon engine detachments.
They literally covered the weakest stratagem for them, and nothing else. lol.
Fellhammer with Fabius Bile & Chosen, a Bullwork Termie Lord & Terminators, two units of melee Legionaries with Sorcerers then fill out the rest with Oblits and Forgefiends. You have two very solid anchor units that are both T5 with 3 wounds at -1 to wound and a once per turn damage shrug. That's very durable. The Legionaries go into the mid field to screen and contest objectives. They are -1 to hit (always) and -1 to wound against shooting. You can always drop the 5+ FNP ability anywhere you need. I think this is pretty good.
I think people really undervalue Battleshock. There’ve been plenty of times where I’ve needed a unit dead and my opponent CP Rerolled a critical save, or I need to charge something and they have a very strong melee stratagem, or even just Overwatch.
I probably won’t be playing Night Lords any time soon unless I sell my Eldar, but I’m really enjoying the sound of the Dread Talons detachment
Dread Talons is absolutely going to be something people win RTTs with, it's just not consistent enough to really be reliable over 5 or 7 rounds. It would be so much better if it'd been designed like "Reroll Hits, if Battleshocked also reroll Wounds," for its strats.
The problem is that battleshocked alone does almost nothing. The game is won by either outlasting the opponent’s killingpower or by killing the opponent’s force faster than they can kill your’s. The detachment does nothing in that regard. Yes, there are stratagems but there’s no extra CP so those again do practically nothing. 🤷🏼♂️
Its a mid detachment with no real output on the table. Its just overhyped because of the night lord fanboys.
Talk about a great time. Going back to CSM + Plague Marines Fer shure
The iron warriors one would be a lot more useable if it wasn't only defensively locked to shooting phase
Agreed!
Gonna be honest, as newbie for actually playing the game instead (because over the laat few years I played a full 5 games) Renegade Raiders just seems very nice as a quality of life Detachment
The detachment rule is always active, no need to think much about it and the strats just work
Still going to try the Dread Talons as a NL fan but Raiders seem to work great for what I have in mind
Plague Marines and Rubrics also get quite a lot better in Renegades. Assault Flamers with extra AP makes them almost good enough for their points (pity about the lack of transport options).
I wish Soulforged could take 3 war dogs and treat them as demon engines. I love those models and enjoyed playing dog walker lists last edition.
Fellhammer has some sleeper units. Think possessed at T6 thats S12 hurting them at a 3+ S11 and below only on 4's.
Why you would want to kill one guy to deploy a lord: if the bigger base doesnt fit (because you made a ring), you place him outside and suddenly you get a 7 inch charge, or 5 inch in a 10 man unit
In Dread Talons I'm thinking about bringing either x2 or maybe x3 of Poxbingers with Plaguebearer. 10 OC² T5, 5++ all the time, and they can make objectives sticky... Plus the Pox bringer make your opponent -1 leadership whenever they take a battle-shock test within 6", but more importantly when your opponent tries to steal the objective he gives the Plaguebearer 5+ Critical hit (Lethals). For only 165pts per attached unit.
Dead talon has so many options to add BS within and out of the army. Wing Deamon prince, Vashtorr, raptor leadership. Noise marines. Plagbearers w/Poxbringer. Blue Horror w/Changecastor or Changling. Knight Abominant.
Its kinda funny, in the soulforged warpack section when hes talking about being surprised by a strat that lasts for the rest of the game, i couldnt help but think of eye of the gods for pactbound zealots which permanently pumps one of your characters for the rest of the game
Fellhammer with an inner core of Abaddon+10 Chosen and 3 Havoc Squads, screen with Cultists, have Raptors or Warp Talons pinning things down. Use remaining points for Terminators and/or Vindicators?
Thanks for the breakdown. I’m glad you elaborated on Deceptors a bit from the last video and can hopefully temper some of the copium that people are huffing about the detachment.
As you correctly pointed out infiltrate is not guaranteed, functional, or even wanted in all cases with multiple units, which functionally leaves you without a detachment rule.
The tricks and shenanigans people keep drooling over are, as you guys said, often not all that beneficial. The effort to pull of all these swaps and trickery are often not going to net you enough results to justify the effort. People need to understand that the average unit is noticeably weaker without exploding 5s all the time from the index detachment. If you don’t have other detachment rules to compensate for that power wise, you’re going to have a bad time.
I hope people can make it work, I’d love to be wrong because I love alpha legion, but I’m just not seeing this being a consistently strong detachment.
I think it's a good detachment with Terminators. If 2 of your units made a charge (even a rhino just to move block etc), you can have a pack of terminators +2 in charge the turn wich they deep strike for 1CP, add a Sorcerer in Terminator armor and you have a charge at 7 + re-roll.
You can even have a pack of terminators lead by the Chaos Lord in terminator that try to charge after and can have a +3 in charge for 0CP as this strat is a Battle Tactic (as long as your charge at 7 + re-roll is sucessfull).
This is maybe the best detachment to reliably deep strike + charge in this book.
@@elvadrieclya that’s about the main strat I’m going to be going for. It’s like try to move block or primary pressure with infiltrators if possible and then try to get a deep strike/charge off with termies or talons.
Planning on running the cultist detachment with armiger knight allies and a winged daemon prince if I end up having the points after the infantry masses+characters. A daemon engine or two if possible? Idk I like the idea of an undivided darktide
Thanks guys! Laconic and informative same time!
Deceptors would be cool if they could take x points (depend of total point army) allies units of space marines. Because alpha legion infiltratet a lot of legions.
Please no, we have enough factions running Land Raider Redeemers, I would like to see less of them for a bit.
Funny you mention that, cause that is unironically part of their Horus Heresy ruleset.
I am thinking those low damage detachments really depend on Abaddon to boost some of the damage dealers in the army.
Hoping for a points drop on him now that he doesn't affect Damned units and lost all his marks.
Do you think people are gonna run him with the full terminator brick or just 5 chosen now? I have an alpha legion army with FW alpharius as a proxy, and I can't wait to run that detachment.
@@Sgt.Dornan My guess is 5 Chosen to give him extra threat range.
There is just no synergy with terminators without the marks.
Very cool to use Primarch as proxy for Aba!
Thanks Nick and John
Deceptors in 7th position ? I'm amazed by your ranking. So much possibilities in this detachment.
I really liked renegade raiders even before the rankings. Alas, deceptors also calls for me as hilarious.
But I don’t have CSM.
Putting dreadtalon detachment over the Fellhammer is a wild take. I would much rather have pseudo-transhuman for my whole army and a solid set of defence buffs so I can stand on primary and win, and take efficient units like Vindicators that still do plenty of damage and mobile units like Warp Talons for secondaries (that can also be given defence buffs) - as opposed to a gimmicky set of rules that are inconsistent to translate into actual damage (and several armies just don't give af about battleshock anyway) while not getting any compensation in the way of other buffs.
Best detachment seems like it wants you to play the same dudes in rhinos list that competitive players were all running before the points nerf lol
Warning about the LD detachment. It only works on infantry when you read the strats,
Imperial Fists players look at Anvil and be like, " I sure wish I could be Fellhammer..."
Many such cases
The latest book made me sell my marines. Kept just 2k of imperial fists… in a box…
Tier list Tuesday!
welp!! My thousand Sons just went full renegade lol (for now) ;)
fellhamer should get the main rule to both phase meaby not the FNP one but at least the minus one to wound and pleaaase inverse the pitiless cannonade strat or tweet him to be like the ironstorm one
3:00 Chaos has fallen! Rejoice my brothers!
As good as the Speedpaints and Fanatics are, the Cans are massively inferior to those made by Shitadel or Vallejo. The tools are decent, though. Especially for the price.
of course the traitor legions (alpha legion, iron warriors, night lords) got the short end of the stick
Is putting 75 cultists in infiltrate with 5+ invulnerable and 33 marine with lord in infiltrate that weak. 108 modles all 9" away is that crazy lol
You can inflitrate Abaddon too right ? Giving all those units 4+inv save
@@darquessd825 it specifically excludes epic heroes so no names characters unfortunately
You have got #8 right. The rest, not so much.
Please look at it again in Six months.
I’m an Alpha Legion fanboy to a fault. Deceptors forever!
I wanna play my Emperor's Children!!
I don't like the Dread detachment play very much. Yes, a 3" deepstrike into a -2 Battleshock test should work out. But if your opponent rolls that 9+, you wasted 1CP and a unit of Raptors.
That means, that you need some units to help the opponent fall the BS test. Noise marines for example.
I dont get the pro battle shock argument. Iv never had it cost me a game, iv never really had it ve more then a little annoying once in a while. I would never play a detachment around the current battle shock. I do like NL and it's thematic but its second last for me.
Just want to point out that you are not able to jump back in to a transport in the turn they jump out in RR detachment.
Annoying how a number of these detachments are just loyalist marine ones but better...
Ranking the pactbound so high when they are in almost every way nerfed index detachment that was competing for the spot of the worst performing army is somewhat hilarious.
I think you need to go check your facts my friend
Since the MFM dropped the index detachment was a 51% WR at events. The detachment is fine.
One of, if not THE most flexible detachment which you can use with any List. Cant see where this was ever a bad choice.
@@AponeX86XWell, it had around 50% win rate, and was nerfed all around, so yeah, unless there are some significant points drop, I do believe the index detachment will be worse than most youtubers are rating it.
@@GaryP336The detachment’s strictly better version was not winning and still isn’t. Making it worse will not yield better results.
🤡🤡🤡 rankings
the Vocal Fry on the white guy is so hard to listen too... please talk like a normal person. Otherwise good video.