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I designed the roof on the S2 Elise and VX220. Also the Aero on both with a Mr. Hill, (Vanquish too). Also the throttle assembly re-design. Great video on it James.
Who does the CV selection at lotus? I applied there a number of times because I live the brand and have quite a good set up automotive project under my belt with an automotive engineering bachelors to boot but didn't even get an interview chance! I understand nobody is entitled to a job but I wanted to at least sit infront of someone and get a fair shot.
Owned a 111S and everything you said is right. And it’s British through and through, better looking. Pure joy to drive. And mine had A/C and a hard top - I sold it as “the most daily-able” spec.
I remember that Lotus really wanted the Honda 2.0 engine but Honda wasn't willing to supply them. Because Lotus had a good relationship with Toyota, they were able to get their engine. However, whereas the name Toyota is on the upper part of the engine, the lower section was built by Yamaha.
@@ridgemanron Perhaps they manufactured the whole engine, but the head design was Yamaha. Actually, I know Yamaha also worked on the Lexus LFA's V10. I wonder if that would also be the case with that engine [heads' design] or if they helped with all of it.
After dreaming about owning one of these for 20 years, I finally bought one in January and it was worth the wait. Similar spec, near-mint condition S2 111S k-series with Janspeed & Nitrons. I'm also into sports bikes, and this little Lotus is the closest car I've driven that gives you a similar feeling of "wearing" a mechanical vehicle and interacting with the road beneath you. An absolute joy, and a steal at current prices imho. Great video, Jay, thanks!
Dare I say the Elise SC is the best of all worlds, supercharger to flesh out the lower rev range of the Toyota plus a little more power still. And that whine from the supercharger is addictive.
Props to Janspeed, because that exhaust note makes it sound sensational. I used to really beat on Fours, but a revvy NA four can sound as exciting as any configuration.
Have had my S1 111S since 2001 Janspeed exhaust, manifold and cat plus trophy throttle body takes the VVC engine to 160bhp plus. It’s just perfect perfect to cruise to where roads are good give it some beans have pub lunch and drive home. Love the fact that I don’t have to thrash it to make it go. VVC just makes it feel like a big engine. So many little modifications over the years I won’t part with. Just cut back on the biscuits when I’m struggling to get in.
Having never driven an 'S' I cannot compare it to my 'R'. Still unimaginable anything more enjoyable than this car with the reflashed ECU, Larini GT2 exhaust, Sport Pak and autocross tires (with an 'i'). Stock is, and changes cam at 6200 RPM. EDC Yellow Stuff brake pads so never complaints with the progressive brakes especially on track. Yes you have to be patient shifting and the Larini is loud, however I have only had the roof on 6 times in 6 years and it sounds like a DFV on Cam. Cannot imagine anything better.
Great video! We have had a few Loti on our channel recently and love them more and more everytime. So much so, we now have an S2 Exige S permanently on the channel. Modern cars are doing it wrong. This is the way sports cars should be made to this day!
I owned almost the exact same car as this, an absolute belter of a car, far better than my S2 Exige for road driving. No power steering, no brake booster, no abs, no traction control, a truly mechanical drivers car.
Since it’s release, this car has been my absolute dream car, above everything else. I own a detailed model of it and, at 56 and just going through forced retirement due to ill health, that’s the closest I’ll ever get to opening the door of one. This is one video, I’ll watch again and again. ❤️
I'm much your age and the Elise is the most captivating thing I've ever driven. Like Jay and @lawrencelin272 say, reach out and get out in one. What area are you in?
Absolutely love my 111s. Same colour as this one too! I've had it for 5 years now. I tried 111r before buying it. I couldn't get on with the brake pedal feel at all. I'm lucky the one I've got is a tad lighter and didn't have the Aircon fitted 🙌
I had this exact same car on an 03 plate with only 29k in the same Ardent Red with black interior, Back in 2009 I paid £13500 kept it 2 years and bought a Honda S2000 , what a mistake!! Probably one of the very best cars I have ever owned and boy do i miss it, The steering was telepathic and it just floated over bumpy B Roads with amazing body control. I had a later S3 1.6 Club Race, and it wasn'tt nearly as good! Well done Jay, loved the video weirdly was just thinking of my old Lotus earlier today!!!!
@@Wiwerest It was a Club Racer basically a more basic version with 1.6 Toyota Engine, was okay but not as good as the 111S I had. The Toyota Engine was a little flat.
Peak Elise was the S3 Supercharged Toyota 2ZZ engined cars. Only made in small numbers (77 in the UK) and only in 2011 before they switched to the less revvy 2ZR engine. Revs to a crazy 8500, but unlike the R has torque down lower as well. I have number 32 if you want to try one James
As a 111R owner your 100% correct about the brake pedal but completely wrong on the gearbox. Mine is like a Enfield rifle, very nice to use and rewarding flicking your way up. I suspect yours wasn't in great condition. Your also correct on the steering. Keep up the good videos, I have a theory that there is no better drivers car for under £25k. Do you agree?
The long tail roof is nothing like the S1 roof, it's the same as the short later roof but with tails. Aside from having to put the tails in too, it's still a 1min job. There's also one less seal to worry about at the rear of the roof... The 111S has one notable flaw, it has the long gear ratios. For me, the magic formula is a regular Rover S2 (which has the close ratio gearbox) with a tuned engine. Mine's on ITBs running 165hp with a ported head, cams and a 4-2-1. Sounds epic.
111R owner here. BOE in Kansas do a remap that adds plenty of torque in the low rpm range. feels like a 111S then. the cam switchover they do at 5.500 instead at 6.200 rpm which then happens linear with no kick. truly transforms the 111r. mine with some more mods goes head to head with the 220 supercharged elises ✌🏼
@@samwilde595 engine is good for 300+ boosted, you re fine. They need the ECU to be sent in and adapt to your individual mods. exhaust, headers, intake etc.
Yes Jay, there are problems with the K series engine, and the K series 160 VVC (Very Very Complicated) has some of those problems to0. I speak with experience as you may notice my icon is an MGF that I use for hillclimbs. I also have a garage ornament that is a very low mile MGTF 160 (70000klm) that has a problem but is very quick at my hillclimb. The headgasket problem has been fixed and the MGF had 230000klm on it when I sold it. But they are a very good engine with a good spread of power. I would like an Elise, but they are stupid money here in Oz, about three times the price of a good MGTF.
Enjoyed the vid James - thank you. I bought an Elise earlier this year after watching your "getting in and out" video to reassure myself that my less than svelte frame would fit 😂 I went for a 2010 supercharged S3 which cures the issues with the powerband. Its grunty low down even in high gears but savage from 5-8000rpm. Much fun! Its also on nitrons and very neutral - easily steered on the throttle round a roundabout. You are right - everyone should try one 😊
Like a few in these comments, I had almost this exact car - but 2005 so last of line. All the positives I agree with, but I dont remember the gear change fondly at all. Could well be my memory playing tricks though! Best 4 cylinder engine Ive driven, and perfectly suited the car.
I had a series 2 in the standard 120BHP guise, it was amazing (head gasket went of course). Swapped it for a 111R and was intoxicated by the "bi-polar" nature but equally could (and often was) totally caught out by a diesel Astra (in period) if I was in too high a gear - no torque. Now have a Sport 220, some would say a bit portly but it is totally epic and the best of the 3 in a variety of respects IMHO. Great video as usual
When I had an NA 2zz car I tried both cam switch points and on reflection the higher 6xxx changeover was better. Added more theatre due to the slight dip in torque before it engaged. Recently got rid of brake booster and (factory) ABS on my 2-Eleven, it's been inevitable since the day I sat in a rover car and felt the brake pedal on the earlier model. The Toyota brake pedals really are unforgivable, and don't get much better right up till the last of the V6's IMO
Hmmm ... I've just picked up an 06 plate 111R, incidentally with a Larini exhaust. I completely agree with the boomyness, but the gearbox is absolutely slick and beautiful. I was torn between the R and S, but this car was too good to pass up.
I imported an 111R from Newcastle to Germany in 2011, to my mind it is the ideal engine because it wants to be revved! Would not consider an Mk2 with the Rover engine. I still remember what fun I had on b roads revving this thing to 8500!
The comment about heel and toe is true but the brake pedal is easily adjusted. Takes about 5 minutes to fix. I owned one and could heel toe with no problems after that.
I never knew about the "short roof", I gave up on Elises after trying (and failing) to fit one of the original roofs during a test drive in a rain storm...
I bought an s2 Exige at the beginning of this year, I can relate to a lot of the things you shared about the Toyota version. Heal toe requires a lot of adapting. The gear change on mine feels slick and precise and I personally enjoy the fact I have to hoon it to get any performance out of it, I really love tue 2k engine it has a ton of character and I’m very used to vtec engines. I had a tough time deciding between the K series and the 2ZZ when I was looking for an Elise, but the exige just felt more of a toy for me. If I drove mine regularly I think I may have leaned more towards the k series, but I don’t, it’s a toy so I think the 2ZZ is perfect. Plus the Exige doesn’t have the k series so I had no choice lol. At the end of the day whatever variant you buy you’ll still love it, it’s immensely compromised in so many ways as a car but as a driving toy? It’s perfect.
Love that yellow series 1 sport 160... but not at that money. Guess I just need to stick with my much more mundane MR2 with its weedy 1ZZ and ~250kg extra ballast. You're making me reconsider my 2zz aspirations here for the MR2. Low boost 1zz is meant to be a far more linear power delivery and a similar cost to a 2zz swap. Who am I kidding... the Vauxhall VX220 Turbo is one I really want!
2zz really transforms a 3rd gen, I blew up my 1zz and swapped it with 0 regrets. Plus you get to keep a stock ECU if you'd like. I'll admit the 4-6k range is a little weak relative to how mad it feels up top, but it's never weaker than a 1zz.
I’ve had my S2 Sport 135 since 2006, and I’ll never sell it. Such an incredible little car. I’ve never had any of the issues you had with your 111R but have heard how frustrating the Toyota engine is. I think the Rover K-series suits the car perfectly. You can have raucous fun in the Elise even at modest speeds.
Hey @JayEmm, I had the S2 111S and loved every second of it and now have an S2 SC - your welcome use it for a video on it if you would like to compare.
No no no no... The SC is the one you want - the joy of the high revving 2ZZ, but with mid-range torque and oomph, lower cam switch over, and obviously a heap quicker than the 111S. Yes, it's a smidge heavier, but the rest of the benefits more than make up for it.
I had the chance to drive one in Denmark in 2011. My friends neighbor, a bachelar, had bought one for himself ha ha. The feeling of total lack of inertia in such a liteweight car was absolutely fantastic and made me dream of owning a light car like this ever since.
Splitting hairs. The Toyota motor, aside from some cam surface issues on a few units is a really strong motor. You can't say that about the Rover. I'd say, buy the car that has been treated well and that moves you. Don't choose based on which one is relatively better, when as James says, the Elise is a world apart from any other car. Anyway, appreciate the deep dive into the differences. It's always interesting to hear from people who have owned Elises about their thoughts on it. We drove a 2009 Elise R for 11 years and I'd say the crashy suspension bottoming sound was my least favorite part, but you eventually reconcile your mechanical sympathy with this sound, knowing it's not harming the car. The Elise's suspension travel is around 2", so yes it should be left compliant, but no, it doesn't fix much when you strike a pot hole. I actually preferred the Jekyll & Hyde nature of the Toyota motor coming on cam, and the 6 spd. It meant we could rack up tens of thousands of commuting miles at 29-30 mpg but still ring it out occasionally. Perfect tuning for that purpose, where our 2013 Abarth (5 spd) always uses boost even when you're just cruising on the highway, so the only way to save gas is drive much more slowly.
Some of issues with James’ 111r (basic spec/poor brakes) were specific to his car. I had a 111r for 8 years. Brakes were a bit rubbish initially but new pads fixed that. Absolutely loved it. Have a 220 now which is better built and quicker but still miss the extra revs.
The K-series engined Elises do handle very differently to the Toyota engined cars IMO. The weight difference over the rear axle is actually quite substantial which then changes how pretty much everything feels when driving it, especially on the limit.
I have the cam switch point lowered too on my 111R and i rarely go over it if im honest, i dont feel it that lacking. I couldnt live with the K series even though it can be made reliable which is why i went Toyota. Performance is probably comparable up to 6000 rpm i would guess.
I'm not disregarding your opinion but in my 2ZZ MR2 Roadster, I do quite enjoy the prep for an overtake or a bit of fun. Heal and toe to drop a gear, squeeze it past 6krpm and weeee! smiles all around. Everytime I forget how quick it is past 6k. I would enjoy a bit more low-end torque and an ECU to take more advantage of my intake and exhaust manifold.
You are 100% right in your analysis, but the 111R can be improved lots. Pedals can be adjusted. Also the dead travel of the brake pedal can be reduced. Gear linkage can be vastly improved. And with simple intake/exhaust mods plus a well-done remap, the engine pulls strong from 4300 rpm. Yes the unassisted pedal of the 111S will always feel better and the weight disadvantage of the 111R will never disappear, but a soft-modded and lightly tuned 111R is a very very enjoyable thing.
Love this video. Bias as I love my Elise 220 v3.5. Nothing drives like one, nothing. The issue is everything else is dull after. Had a 111s, I agree with you, wish I still had it. Im 6’2” and 55, gonna drive it until I can’t. Im gonna be old soon enough but not yet! Love your videos, thanks.
Great video thanks spot with your analysis, more power and newer is not always better. S1 111s is superb car so well judged never driven s2 111s but subjectively heard latter k series engines more prone to head gasket issue also not sure if it had the close ratio box of the s1 111s. The k series vvc is spot on with a lovely flat torque curve. Once you get used to the s1 roof you learn to love it even when it leaks 😂 driven many cars now much more expensive way faster in a straight line but nothing has the balance poise and sheer enjoyment on the British b road than the s1 111s. It is also for the most part cheap to run in terms of service / repair / insurance/ fuel etc… also with a nice 4-2-1 manifold and a stainless exhaust system it sounds great for a 4 pot.
Test drove the 111R in about 2006/7? Before it came out Lotus announced that they were deciding on whether to partner with Honda or Toyota for future engine supplies. I was driving an EP3 Honda Civic Type R at the time and I was praying Lotus would choose Honda, as the thought of the Type R engine in an Elise sounded perfect. As we know Lotus chose Toyota, I gather as they already had a working partnership already. I had EXACTLY the same conclusions as you have said. Gear change so -so. Not get up and go below 6000rpm, Then when it did rush to 8000rpm, did not sound as good as the Type R and was just not that nice an experience. Have never driven a S but the Rover engine ("HGF" etc etc) had sacred me off by then!
I tell you the Elise I want - and one I’d love you to review to see if I’m right - it’s the 1.6. I’ve got my daily driver and my fast GT/sports car…but I’m 60 and really miss my low powered cars that I could rag without worrying about my licence. I’ve been lucky but I think my old MR2 gave me more pleasure than all of my faster cars.
10:03 Jay sounded a little unsure talking about the Toyota engine re US sales, but he’s spot on. I was following the story closely, at the time, and the Toyota engine had already passed all of the US emissions tests and it was an easy choice for Lotus to make.
I had a 111S to then sell it and buy a 111R. I agree about the driving pleasure of the 111S over having to thrash the 111R, for that second cam to come alive. But when it does the 111R flies…Because the 111S was my first Lotus I also have very fond memories. Starlet black with cream interior and gun metal wheels. As for the 111R I sold it later to find out the new owner had crashed it that same night…😮
I enjoyed it !!. , and own a MK1 111S 1999 nautalic blue , with MK2 Bilstein shockers . Bought it in 2010. It will never be for sale. What you mentioned to tell is that the differential is shorter, which means the car feels alive in every gear! And 6 speed???? Bullshit! With this weight of 700 plus kg it doesn’t need! Thanx for the video. You are my nr 1 journalist ! There is a lot of bullshit journalism about cars I am also a racing driver for more than 35 years. (Historic formula Ford2000)
May be audience not fancy to see Elise or Lotus episodes. But as an Elise fan I adore videos about Elise whole series. Also you are telling exactly that I like to hear and I am dreaming. Few years before I have written you an e-mail asking for your opinions. Since than I could not buy one :( After todays episode I have few more to ask you and will send you an e-mail again. Anyway I would like to thank you for this great video. Looking forward to see a video about S3 series which is comparing 1.6 atmospheric and 1.8 Supercharged Toyota engined ones. Cheers,
Love my Federal (111R) Elise, but I do see your point about having to ring it out +6k RPM to utilize its performance. Still feels adequate for me though even without the cams coming on. Hoping to experience the K series by landing an S1 in the near future now that they’ve hit their 25th birthday. 🇺🇸 🇬🇧
The Rover K series was a fantastic engine. Super lightweight and great revvy power delivery. It was also very reliable. The “problem” it was generally put in the wrong cars. Mid engined cars where it suffered heat issues and big heavy cars like land rovers and rovers which did not suit the engine and it was often not maintained properly. Most caterhams and lotus all handled better and stopped better when they had a rover K series in rather than the later engines.
Most people ditched the VVC mechanism, did some porting and polishing of the head of the K-series, added forged pistons and hotter cams and an Emerald ECU and presto, you had almost 200bhp of linear naturally aspirated power to play with. None of that Toyota crap.
I'm a new subscriber and about a year behind on your videos mate. I just bought an Evora and also just saw the video that you got rid of yours. LOL. Great Channel by the way!
I love my 111S. I was looking to buy an Elise about 10 years ago, but like you, I favoured the idea of a Toyota engine. I'm in Northern Ireland, so there's not that much available locally, but a 111S did turn up. I bought it and I gradually grew to realise the 111S IS the right Elise for me. I don''t drive it often enough but I may never part with it. I cannot find another car that enthralls me so much to drive. For me it has ruined all other cars.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Elise 1ZR as a comparison... Although it would be advisable to drive one that had little tweaks, like Russ's. A 1ZR with a full 2bular setup say... 👌🏼
Personally, I'd only want one with the supercharged 'yota lump. The NA K series and Toyota lumps aren't terribly musical, so you don't lose much in that regard, but you do get much more usable torque with the SC engine.
I too made a mistake. I sold my P-plate S1 in Titanium with red leather, ordered at the launch motor show, later added Lotus front track suspension and power upgrades. How dumb was i?
I agree that the S1 Sport 160 is the best version, but £40-50k is way out. £25k is closer to the mark. Bought mine (my 4th S1) in March this year for less than that (then fitted perfectly spec’d Nitron NTR 40s and new tyres) and the ride is sublime. The green S160 you drove was pretty heavily modified. If you want to try a “purist” version (albeit with better shocks), let me know. 👍🏼
Is your 160 a wvta or sva model? I take it when you say purist spect then it doesn’t have a driveability kit installed and on the standard ecu like the ‘’heavily modified” like the one he drove.
I have owned two Elise. The mark 1 used the mark 2 new. The removable roof on the mark 1 is a nightmare to take off and put back on again and if you were unlucky enough not to put it back on before the rain started you did get wet. The mark 2 version roof was far easier but of the two cars I much preferred the mark 1 mainly because the second generation had a most annoying fault of accelerating all by itself when slowing at a junction. It went back to the dealer on several occasions for this fault but it never happened whilst they had it so at 7000 miles I sold it and bought a Porsche Boxster
Had the same engine as the 111r in my Toyota corolla t sport and even at 1200kg when 'on cam' was quite feisty must have been ballistic in a 850kg elise 😊.
A thing of beauty. And I do actually like the exhaust note. My first car in 1984 was a Fiat X-19, the 1.3 model. And it was a hoot to drive despite having only a 1.3 engine. It genuinely felt like a go cart. Not being lucky enough to have driven an Elise, I imagine this to be similar, but better. I have a 435D X-Drive with active suspension. It has 630 NM's of torque & it's certainly a Q car. And yet I still look at Elises, VX220's, MX5's etc. And that's what I'm going to do now. I have to try one & I may take a test drive. It's the pure driving pleasure that's missing to a degree in the 435D. And the Elise just looks so purposeful, & it's not very often I see one. But mine, I see dozens everyday. Decisions decisions.
I saw one the other day in black, it looked great, but my only question, being 6'2" and no wanting 'Lotus Europa Disappointment' was, would I fit in it? answers please people!
Rover designed the MGF in the early 90's, with an eye on the US market, which would mean a federalised K series. Lotus knew this, and expected to get the same. The BMW take over of rover ended any chance of this, as they didn't want the MGF or Elise to compete with the Z3.
The issue with the powerband on the 111R is very true - I hated that and just never got on with the car for a few other reasons. I moved to a fast road prepped MX-5 Mk3.5 and an RS4.
I still miss my old S1 Elise. It had no power, but that just meant you could drive it hard and not worry about unwittingly doing daft speeds. Clarkson once said you could drive over a credit card and read the number through the steering wheel. And he was right.
I’ve been in the market for a 111r and wow this has been an eye opener. Would you recommend purchasing a 111s that’s already had the head gasket repair?
I would, especially if it has the recirculating water pump, either retrofitted or as the later cars came with (2002 onwards). I just make sure I don´t drive it hard until temp is above 85°C. For me, it is the closest to the original Elise ethos as you can get in an S2. Mine is 780kg with gas in the tank.
I bought the same exact sister car to this new in 2003 and have regretted selling it every day since 2011 for a fraction of what it’s worth now... I thought it was mine for a moment. Sigh…
Hey Jay so if the 1.8 liter toyota is all you can go for, what is the right spec for one if your in america, as they did do a supercharged and I wonder if that changes the power band, also the gearbox, their was a doug demiro video on it with a woman doing the video, one of the commentors said to fix the gearbox, what you need to do is replace the plastic fasteners for the thing the gearshift is in, with steel, and that fixes it, with that domed thing it sits in also is their a good year range to go for with these, as this is one of those cases where I have a shot at getting one of these granted I could get a series 1, someone brought one in, but something sounds off in the back and to the right
So jay is saying the 2ZZ Elise that everyone knows as that car and sold it on being famous is not it? I guess it doesn't matter anyway, any of these cost as much as an NSX or MKIV Supra in the states. I'll cope with my MK3 Supra and 01' Celica GT-S lol.
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I designed the roof on the S2 Elise and VX220. Also the Aero on both with a Mr. Hill, (Vanquish too). Also the throttle assembly re-design. Great video on it James.
I am glad u are back in this video as well. What are 3 of tiur favorite lotus elises? U can include an exige version too. To drive I mean
Why does it leak so much. My hard top does at least in heavy rain!
Who does the CV selection at lotus? I applied there a number of times because I live the brand and have quite a good set up automotive project under my belt with an automotive engineering bachelors to boot but didn't even get an interview chance!
I understand nobody is entitled to a job but I wanted to at least sit infront of someone and get a fair shot.
Owned a 111S and everything you said is right. And it’s British through and through, better looking. Pure joy to drive. And mine had A/C and a hard top - I sold it as “the most daily-able” spec.
I remember that Lotus really wanted the Honda 2.0 engine but Honda wasn't willing to supply them.
Because Lotus had a good relationship with Toyota, they were able to get their engine. However,
whereas the name Toyota is on the upper part of the engine, the lower section was built by Yamaha.
Toyota got Lotus to help with chassis tech a few years before this
Regarding Yamaha, i think it's the other way around, the head was built by them and the bottom end was Toyota's
@@kaposvaribando1277 You're correct.
@@Roddy_Zeh I remember seeing the engine from below when it was on a lift and I
did see Yamaha stamped in that lower area.
@@ridgemanron Perhaps they manufactured the whole engine, but the head design was Yamaha.
Actually, I know Yamaha also worked on the Lexus LFA's V10. I wonder if that would also be the case with that engine [heads' design] or if they helped with all of it.
After dreaming about owning one of these for 20 years, I finally bought one in January and it was worth the wait. Similar spec, near-mint condition S2 111S k-series with Janspeed & Nitrons. I'm also into sports bikes, and this little Lotus is the closest car I've driven that gives you a similar feeling of "wearing" a mechanical vehicle and interacting with the road beneath you. An absolute joy, and a steal at current prices imho. Great video, Jay, thanks!
May I ask how much you paid for it?
@@UnseenSpirit you can get a nice one for around 20k GBP
Dare I say the Elise SC is the best of all worlds, supercharger to flesh out the lower rev range of the Toyota plus a little more power still. And that whine from the supercharger is addictive.
Completely agree Phil!
The 2ZZ is a bunch of fun, even in relatively porky Matrix/Vube guise, it's a lil riot
The Elise never had problems at lot revs really. It pulls hard from anywhere.
Props to Janspeed, because that exhaust note makes it sound sensational. I used to really beat on Fours, but a revvy NA four can sound as exciting as any configuration.
Have had my S1 111S since 2001 Janspeed exhaust, manifold and cat plus trophy throttle body takes the VVC engine to 160bhp plus. It’s just perfect perfect to cruise to where roads are good give it some beans have pub lunch and drive home. Love the fact that I don’t have to thrash it to make it go. VVC just makes it feel like a big engine. So many little modifications over the years I won’t part with. Just cut back on the biscuits when I’m struggling to get in.
Having never driven an 'S' I cannot compare it to my 'R'. Still unimaginable anything more enjoyable than this car with the reflashed ECU, Larini GT2 exhaust, Sport Pak and autocross tires (with an 'i'). Stock is, and changes cam at 6200 RPM. EDC Yellow Stuff brake pads so never complaints with the progressive brakes especially on track. Yes you have to be patient shifting and the Larini is loud, however I have only had the roof on 6 times in 6 years and it sounds like a DFV on Cam. Cannot imagine anything better.
what autocross tires and size? is it very progressive to the limit?
Great video! We have had a few Loti on our channel recently and love them more and more everytime. So much so, we now have an S2 Exige S permanently on the channel. Modern cars are doing it wrong. This is the way sports cars should be made to this day!
Spot on Jay.
Aside from the head gasket issues which today isn't a problem, the K series is a fabulous engine.
Every Elise is a joy.
I had a 2004 111s in storm titanium and absolutely adored the car.
Love my 111R, 3-6k has plenty of poke, but if you need a bit more you stay in the lower gear for the kick.
I owned almost the exact same car as this, an absolute belter of a car, far better than my S2 Exige for road driving. No power steering, no brake booster, no abs, no traction control, a truly mechanical drivers car.
Since it’s release, this car has been my absolute dream car, above everything else.
I own a detailed model of it and, at 56 and just going through forced retirement due to ill health, that’s the closest I’ll ever get to opening the door of one.
This is one video, I’ll watch again and again. ❤️
reach out to your local club, at least get a ride in one!!
I'm much your age and the Elise is the most captivating thing I've ever driven. Like Jay and @lawrencelin272 say, reach out and get out in one. What area are you in?
Absolutely love my 111s. Same colour as this one too! I've had it for 5 years now. I tried 111r before buying it. I couldn't get on with the brake pedal feel at all.
I'm lucky the one I've got is a tad lighter and didn't have the Aircon fitted 🙌
Absolutely right, the early implementation of servo'd brakes in the Elise were awful, the manual setup in the 111S is a peach.
I had this exact same car on an 03 plate with only 29k in the same Ardent Red with black interior, Back in 2009 I paid £13500 kept it 2 years and bought a Honda S2000 , what a mistake!! Probably one of the very best cars I have ever owned and boy do i miss it, The steering was telepathic and it just floated over bumpy B Roads with amazing body control. I had a later S3 1.6 Club Race, and it wasn'tt nearly as good! Well done Jay, loved the video weirdly was just thinking of my old Lotus earlier today!!!!
What were the 1.6 club race cons? I thought it would be perfect and more modern incarnation of "simplify, than add lightness"
@@Wiwerest It was a Club Racer basically a more basic version with 1.6 Toyota Engine, was okay but not as good as the 111S I had. The Toyota Engine was a little flat.
Peak Elise was the S3 Supercharged Toyota 2ZZ engined cars. Only made in small numbers (77 in the UK) and only in 2011 before they switched to the less revvy 2ZR engine. Revs to a crazy 8500, but unlike the R has torque down lower as well. I have number 32 if you want to try one James
As a 111R owner your 100% correct about the brake pedal but completely wrong on the gearbox. Mine is like a Enfield rifle, very nice to use and rewarding flicking your way up. I suspect yours wasn't in great condition. Your also correct on the steering. Keep up the good videos, I have a theory that there is no better drivers car for under £25k. Do you agree?
The long tail roof is nothing like the S1 roof, it's the same as the short later roof but with tails. Aside from having to put the tails in too, it's still a 1min job. There's also one less seal to worry about at the rear of the roof...
The 111S has one notable flaw, it has the long gear ratios. For me, the magic formula is a regular Rover S2 (which has the close ratio gearbox) with a tuned engine. Mine's on ITBs running 165hp with a ported head, cams and a 4-2-1. Sounds epic.
That's a lot of work and expense just to get to 165hp though - unless they're whp
@@dielaughing73 not when someone else paid for it... 😉I bought the car for less than a 111S with it all done. It is now a better car than a 111S.
@@Steve84N more fool them. If I ever see a deal like that I'll be sure to snap it up
@@dielaughing73 I originally wanted a Honda swapped Rover S2 but this will do for now. 😁
@@Steve84N agreed however as a daily I’d shorten 3rd and 4th and leave 5th as is.
111R owner here. BOE in Kansas do a remap that adds plenty of torque in the low rpm range. feels like a 111S then. the cam switchover they do at 5.500 instead at 6.200 rpm which then happens linear with no kick. truly transforms the 111r. mine with some more mods goes head to head with the 220 supercharged elises ✌🏼
I’ve wondered about doing this to my exige s2, can I ask what’s involved? Also if it effects the reliability etc?
@@samwilde595 engine is good for 300+ boosted, you re fine. They need the ECU to be sent in and adapt to your individual mods. exhaust, headers, intake etc.
@@drnz9kthat’s helpful thank you!
Yes Jay, there are problems with the K series engine, and the K series 160 VVC (Very Very Complicated) has some of those problems to0. I speak with experience as you may notice my icon is an MGF that I use for hillclimbs. I also have a garage ornament that is a very low mile MGTF 160 (70000klm) that has a problem but is very quick at my hillclimb. The headgasket problem has been fixed and the MGF had 230000klm on it when I sold it. But they are a very good engine with a good spread of power. I would like an Elise, but they are stupid money here in Oz, about three times the price of a good MGTF.
111R owner love mine ,will keep it until I can no longer get in it.
Enjoyed the vid James - thank you. I bought an Elise earlier this year after watching your "getting in and out" video to reassure myself that my less than svelte frame would fit 😂
I went for a 2010 supercharged S3 which cures the issues with the powerband. Its grunty low down even in high gears but savage from 5-8000rpm. Much fun! Its also on nitrons and very neutral - easily steered on the throttle round a roundabout. You are right - everyone should try one 😊
Ive driven a 260 cup elise/exige. Absolute gem of a car.
Like a few in these comments, I had almost this exact car - but 2005 so last of line. All the positives I agree with, but I dont remember the gear change fondly at all. Could well be my memory playing tricks though! Best 4 cylinder engine Ive driven, and perfectly suited the car.
2004 111S k-series here. Love love love the car, but yes the gear change is absolutely a weak point.
I had a series 2 in the standard 120BHP guise, it was amazing (head gasket went of course). Swapped it for a 111R and was intoxicated by the "bi-polar" nature but equally could (and often was) totally caught out by a diesel Astra (in period) if I was in too high a gear - no torque. Now have a Sport 220, some would say a bit portly but it is totally epic and the best of the 3 in a variety of respects IMHO. Great video as usual
When I had an NA 2zz car I tried both cam switch points and on reflection the higher 6xxx changeover was better. Added more theatre due to the slight dip in torque before it engaged.
Recently got rid of brake booster and (factory) ABS on my 2-Eleven, it's been inevitable since the day I sat in a rover car and felt the brake pedal on the earlier model. The Toyota brake pedals really are unforgivable, and don't get much better right up till the last of the V6's IMO
Proper old-school review style. Love it
Hmmm ... I've just picked up an 06 plate 111R, incidentally with a Larini exhaust. I completely agree with the boomyness, but the gearbox is absolutely slick and beautiful. I was torn between the R and S, but this car was too good to pass up.
Very underrated car the S2 111s mainly due to the 'long box', perfect road car though.
I imported an 111R from Newcastle to Germany in 2011, to my mind it is the ideal engine because it wants to be revved! Would not consider an Mk2 with the Rover engine.
I still remember what fun I had on b roads revving this thing to 8500!
The comment about heel and toe is true but the brake pedal is easily adjusted. Takes about 5 minutes to fix. I owned one and could heel toe with no problems after that.
I’d like to see JAYEMM get into and out of the Elise. I tried one few years ago and found it clumsy for me at 6ft plus.
I never knew about the "short roof", I gave up on Elises after trying (and failing) to fit one of the original roofs during a test drive in a rain storm...
I bought an s2 Exige at the beginning of this year, I can relate to a lot of the things you shared about the Toyota version. Heal toe requires a lot of adapting. The gear change on mine feels slick and precise and I personally enjoy the fact I have to hoon it to get any performance out of it, I really love tue 2k engine it has a ton of character and I’m very used to vtec engines.
I had a tough time deciding between the K series and the 2ZZ when I was looking for an Elise, but the exige just felt more of a toy for me.
If I drove mine regularly I think I may have leaned more towards the k series, but I don’t, it’s a toy so I think the 2ZZ is perfect. Plus the Exige doesn’t have the k series so I had no choice lol.
At the end of the day whatever variant you buy you’ll still love it, it’s immensely compromised in so many ways as a car but as a driving toy? It’s perfect.
Love that yellow series 1 sport 160... but not at that money. Guess I just need to stick with my much more mundane MR2 with its weedy 1ZZ and ~250kg extra ballast. You're making me reconsider my 2zz aspirations here for the MR2. Low boost 1zz is meant to be a far more linear power delivery and a similar cost to a 2zz swap.
Who am I kidding... the Vauxhall VX220 Turbo is one I really want!
2zz really transforms a 3rd gen, I blew up my 1zz and swapped it with 0 regrets. Plus you get to keep a stock ECU if you'd like. I'll admit the 4-6k range is a little weak relative to how mad it feels up top, but it's never weaker than a 1zz.
That's the reason why I love my Speedster 2.2! It has alot of grunt and for me it's fast enough.
I’ve had my S2 Sport 135 since 2006, and I’ll never sell it. Such an incredible little car. I’ve never had any of the issues you had with your 111R but have heard how frustrating the Toyota engine is. I think the Rover K-series suits the car perfectly. You can have raucous fun in the Elise even at modest speeds.
Personal opinion, the 135R is the best S2 version. K series cars are so good to drive
@@marktickle8480 agreed although a bit extreme for the road.
Hey @JayEmm, I had the S2 111S and loved every second of it and now have an S2 SC - your welcome use it for a video on it if you would like to compare.
No no no no... The SC is the one you want - the joy of the high revving 2ZZ, but with mid-range torque and oomph, lower cam switch over, and obviously a heap quicker than the 111S. Yes, it's a smidge heavier, but the rest of the benefits more than make up for it.
I had the chance to drive one in Denmark in 2011. My friends neighbor, a bachelar, had bought one for himself ha ha. The feeling of total lack of inertia in such a liteweight car was absolutely fantastic and made me dream of owning a light car like this ever since.
Splitting hairs. The Toyota motor, aside from some cam surface issues on a few units is a really strong motor. You can't say that about the Rover. I'd say, buy the car that has been treated well and that moves you. Don't choose based on which one is relatively better, when as James says, the Elise is a world apart from any other car. Anyway, appreciate the deep dive into the differences. It's always interesting to hear from people who have owned Elises about their thoughts on it. We drove a 2009 Elise R for 11 years and I'd say the crashy suspension bottoming sound was my least favorite part, but you eventually reconcile your mechanical sympathy with this sound, knowing it's not harming the car. The Elise's suspension travel is around 2", so yes it should be left compliant, but no, it doesn't fix much when you strike a pot hole. I actually preferred the Jekyll & Hyde nature of the Toyota motor coming on cam, and the 6 spd. It meant we could rack up tens of thousands of commuting miles at 29-30 mpg but still ring it out occasionally. Perfect tuning for that purpose, where our 2013 Abarth (5 spd) always uses boost even when you're just cruising on the highway, so the only way to save gas is drive much more slowly.
Some of issues with James’ 111r (basic spec/poor brakes) were specific to his car. I had a 111r for 8 years. Brakes were a bit rubbish initially but new pads fixed that. Absolutely loved it. Have a 220 now which is better built and quicker but still miss the extra revs.
The K-series engined Elises do handle very differently to the Toyota engined cars IMO. The weight difference over the rear axle is actually quite substantial which then changes how pretty much everything feels when driving it, especially on the limit.
I have the cam switch point lowered too on my 111R and i rarely go over it if im honest, i dont feel it that lacking. I couldnt live with the K series even though it can be made reliable which is why i went Toyota. Performance is probably comparable up to 6000 rpm i would guess.
One of the best Elise🤩👌👍🇬🇧
I love my 111S even after 17 years of ownership, great car.
I'm not disregarding your opinion but in my 2ZZ MR2 Roadster, I do quite enjoy the prep for an overtake or a bit of fun. Heal and toe to drop a gear, squeeze it past 6krpm and weeee! smiles all around. Everytime I forget how quick it is past 6k. I would enjoy a bit more low-end torque and an ECU to take more advantage of my intake and exhaust manifold.
You are 100% right in your analysis, but the 111R can be improved lots. Pedals can be adjusted. Also the dead travel of the brake pedal can be reduced. Gear linkage can be vastly improved. And with simple intake/exhaust mods plus a well-done remap, the engine pulls strong from 4300 rpm.
Yes the unassisted pedal of the 111S will always feel better and the weight disadvantage of the 111R will never disappear, but a soft-modded and lightly tuned 111R is a very very enjoyable thing.
Love this video.
Bias as I love my Elise 220 v3.5. Nothing drives like one, nothing.
The issue is everything else is dull after.
Had a 111s, I agree with you, wish I still had it.
Im 6’2” and 55, gonna drive it until I can’t. Im gonna be old soon enough but not yet!
Love your videos, thanks.
6´3" and 55 here, had my S2 111S just over 2 years and same plan as you.. Not for sale!
Enjoy every moment. Actually that is a given 😂, you will.
I had an '04 111 for 2 1/2 years. Novelty wore off after 9 months. It annoyed me after that.
Too many badly-designd items.
Fair enough. We are not all the same, that would be dull.
Great video thanks spot with your analysis, more power and newer is not always better. S1 111s is superb car so well judged never driven s2 111s but subjectively heard latter k series engines more prone to head gasket issue also not sure if it had the close ratio box of the s1 111s. The k series vvc is spot on with a lovely flat torque curve. Once you get used to the s1 roof you learn to love it even when it leaks 😂 driven many cars now much more expensive way faster in a straight line but nothing has the balance poise and sheer enjoyment on the British b road than the s1 111s. It is also for the most part cheap to run in terms of service / repair / insurance/ fuel etc… also with a nice 4-2-1 manifold and a stainless exhaust system it sounds great for a 4 pot.
Test drove the 111R in about 2006/7? Before it came out Lotus announced that they were deciding on whether to partner with Honda or Toyota for future engine supplies. I was driving an EP3 Honda Civic Type R at the time and I was praying Lotus would choose Honda, as the thought of the Type R engine in an Elise sounded perfect. As we know Lotus chose Toyota, I gather as they already had a working partnership already. I had EXACTLY the same conclusions as you have said. Gear change so -so. Not get up and go below 6000rpm, Then when it did rush to 8000rpm, did not sound as good as the Type R and was just not that nice an experience. Have never driven a S but the Rover engine ("HGF" etc etc) had sacred me off by then!
I tell you the Elise I want - and one I’d love you to review to see if I’m right - it’s the 1.6. I’ve got my daily driver and my fast GT/sports car…but I’m 60 and really miss my low powered cars that I could rag without worrying about my licence. I’ve been lucky but I think my old MR2 gave me more pleasure than all of my faster cars.
10:03
Jay sounded a little unsure talking about the Toyota engine re US sales, but he’s spot on.
I was following the story closely, at the time, and the Toyota engine had already passed all of the US emissions tests and it was an easy choice for Lotus to make.
I had a 111S to then sell it and buy a 111R. I agree about the driving pleasure of the 111S over having to thrash the 111R, for that second cam to come alive. But when it does the 111R flies…Because the 111S was my first Lotus I also have very fond memories. Starlet black with cream interior and gun metal wheels. As for the 111R I sold it later to find out the new owner had crashed it that same night…😮
I enjoyed it !!. , and own a MK1 111S 1999 nautalic blue , with MK2 Bilstein shockers . Bought it in 2010. It will never be for sale. What you mentioned to tell is that the differential is shorter, which means the car feels alive in every gear! And 6 speed???? Bullshit! With this weight of 700 plus kg it doesn’t need!
Thanx for the video. You are my nr 1 journalist !
There is a lot of bullshit journalism about cars
I am also a racing driver for more than 35 years. (Historic formula Ford2000)
Impeccable choice, S1 111S owner here too, with Bilsteins and a few upgrades.
May be audience not fancy to see Elise or Lotus episodes. But as an Elise fan I adore videos about Elise whole series. Also you are telling exactly that I like to hear and I am dreaming. Few years before I have written you an e-mail asking for your opinions. Since than I could not buy one :( After todays episode I have few more to ask you and will send you an e-mail again. Anyway I would like to thank you for this great video. Looking forward to see a video about S3 series which is comparing 1.6 atmospheric and 1.8 Supercharged Toyota engined ones. Cheers,
interesting watching this after your podcast with Seen through Glass and both the way you started youtube and structure your filming....
Love my Federal (111R) Elise, but I do see your point about having to ring it out +6k RPM to utilize its performance. Still feels adequate for me though even without the cams coming on.
Hoping to experience the K series by landing an S1 in the near future now that they’ve hit their 25th birthday. 🇺🇸 🇬🇧
The Rover K series was a fantastic engine. Super lightweight and great revvy power delivery. It was also very reliable. The “problem” it was generally put in the wrong cars. Mid engined cars where it suffered heat issues and big heavy cars like land rovers and rovers which did not suit the engine and it was often not maintained properly. Most caterhams and lotus all handled better and stopped better when they had a rover K series in rather than the later engines.
Fitting remote thermostat to Elise prevents the HGF problem.
Most people ditched the VVC mechanism, did some porting and polishing of the head of the K-series, added forged pistons and hotter cams and an Emerald ECU and presto, you had almost 200bhp of linear naturally aspirated power to play with. None of that Toyota crap.
I had one of these and I loved it. BIGGEST mistake I ever made was selling it
That looks very similar to Bell and Colevilles demonstrator from back in the day!
Going supercharging, even without chargecoolers (on non-Exige) was probably the right move.
What about the Toyota engined S, with 134hp. Sounds like it may be the sweet spot in terms of driveability and reliability. Or is it just too slow?
Also wondering about this. Hope someone with experience can answer
Its is - so much better than the Toyota R with 60+ more bhp and bugger all torque. Had the wonderful S for 3 years.
I'm a new subscriber and about a year behind on your videos mate. I just bought an Evora and also just saw the video that you got rid of yours. LOL. Great Channel by the way!
I have two corvettes
A 1996 lt4 collector edition and a 1992 zr-1. I am seriously considering selling them both, and buying an S2 Elise.
2 days ago filmed. Shirt bought in 1984 at Bennetton.
I love my 111S. I was looking to buy an Elise about 10 years ago, but like you, I favoured the idea of a Toyota engine. I'm in Northern Ireland, so there's not that much available locally, but a 111S did turn up. I bought it and I gradually grew to realise the 111S IS the right Elise for me. I don''t drive it often enough but I may never part with it. I cannot find another car that enthralls me so much to drive. For me it has ruined all other cars.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Elise 1ZR as a comparison... Although it would be advisable to drive one that had little tweaks, like Russ's. A 1ZR with a full 2bular setup say... 👌🏼
Personally, I'd only want one with the supercharged 'yota lump. The NA K series and Toyota lumps aren't terribly musical, so you don't lose much in that regard, but you do get much more usable torque with the SC engine.
"Lump" 😂
I too made a mistake. I sold my P-plate S1 in Titanium with red leather, ordered at the launch motor show, later added Lotus front track suspension and power upgrades. How dumb was i?
What is the website you use to cross reference real world car weights??
I agree that the S1 Sport 160 is the best version, but £40-50k is way out. £25k is closer to the mark. Bought mine (my 4th S1) in March this year for less than that (then fitted perfectly spec’d Nitron NTR 40s and new tyres) and the ride is sublime.
The green S160 you drove was pretty heavily modified. If you want to try a “purist” version (albeit with better shocks), let me know. 👍🏼
Is your 160 a wvta or sva model? I take it when you say purist spect then it doesn’t have a driveability kit installed and on the standard ecu like the ‘’heavily modified” like the one he drove.
I have owned two Elise. The mark 1 used the mark 2 new. The removable roof on the mark 1 is a nightmare to take off and put back on again and if you were unlucky enough not to put it back on before the rain started you did get wet. The mark 2 version roof was far easier but of the two cars I much preferred the mark 1 mainly because the second generation had a most annoying fault of accelerating all by itself when slowing at a junction. It went back to the dealer on several occasions for this fault but it never happened whilst they had it so at 7000 miles I sold it and bought a Porsche Boxster
Had the same engine as the 111r in my Toyota corolla t sport and even at 1200kg when 'on cam' was quite feisty must have been ballistic in a 850kg elise 😊.
A thing of beauty. And I do actually like the exhaust note. My first car in 1984 was a Fiat X-19, the 1.3 model. And it was a hoot to drive despite having only a 1.3 engine. It genuinely felt like a go cart. Not being lucky enough to have driven an Elise, I imagine this to be similar, but better. I have a 435D X-Drive with active suspension. It has 630 NM's of torque & it's certainly a Q car. And yet I still look at Elises, VX220's, MX5's etc. And that's what I'm going to do now. I have to try one & I may take a test drive. It's the pure driving pleasure that's missing to a degree in the 435D. And the Elise just looks so purposeful, & it's not very often I see one. But mine, I see dozens everyday. Decisions decisions.
I know it's not the same but I have a NC BBR tuned MX5. It's very fun, very reliable, dirt cheap. Huge recommend 😊
If only lotus had gotten a good deal on some Honda K20 engines!
Unpopular opinion I know but I love the 2zz engine. I have an s2 exige and I’ve had Hondas, I find the experience of the 2zz more suited to the exige.
I test drove the 199bhp Toyota R years ago and hated it. You had to rev the bollocks off it to get at the power. Bought an S - so much more fun.
I saw one the other day in black, it looked great, but my only question, being 6'2" and no wanting 'Lotus Europa Disappointment' was, would I fit in it? answers please people!
Rover designed the MGF in the early 90's, with an eye on the US market, which would mean a federalised K series. Lotus knew this, and expected to get the same. The BMW take over of rover ended any chance of this, as they didn't want the MGF or Elise to compete with the Z3.
Always found it insane that Lotus knew the S1 would be expensive to manufacture, but did it anyway because they didn't want to change the styling.
Had pretty much every type of Elise and you really can’t beat a scandal green 160
The issue with the powerband on the 111R is very true - I hated that and just never got on with the car for a few other reasons. I moved to a fast road prepped MX-5 Mk3.5 and an RS4.
I still miss my old S1 Elise. It had no power, but that just meant you could drive it hard and not worry about unwittingly doing daft speeds.
Clarkson once said you could drive over a credit card and read the number through the steering wheel. And he was right.
I’ve been in the market for a 111r and wow this has been an eye opener. Would you recommend purchasing a 111s that’s already had the head gasket repair?
I would, especially if it has the recirculating water pump, either retrofitted or as the later cars came with (2002 onwards). I just make sure I don´t drive it hard until temp is above 85°C. For me, it is the closest to the original Elise ethos as you can get in an S2. Mine is 780kg with gas in the tank.
1:17 among us reflection in the mirror
You can fit the roof from the inside? That would make a good video.
You cannot make a mistake buying an Elise.
I bought the same exact sister car to this new in 2003 and have regretted selling it every day since 2011 for a fraction of what it’s worth now... I thought it was mine for a moment. Sigh…
Your car has an amazing sound. Is it a decat job by any chance?
Hey Jay so if the 1.8 liter toyota is all you can go for, what is the right spec for one if your in america, as they did do a supercharged and I wonder if that changes the power band, also the gearbox, their was a doug demiro video on it with a woman doing the video, one of the commentors said to fix the gearbox, what you need to do is replace the plastic fasteners for the thing the gearshift is in, with steel, and that fixes it, with that domed thing it sits in
also is their a good year range to go for with these, as this is one of those cases where I have a shot at getting one of these
granted I could get a series 1, someone brought one in, but something sounds off in the back and to the right
The 2-11 is still the bees bollocks - regretting selling mine a few years back 😞
What a shame Mat. I wouldn't know what to do in your position either, but on the outside looking in I would move it on.
TY J! 🙏🙏
So jay is saying the 2ZZ Elise that everyone knows as that car and sold it on being famous is not it?
I guess it doesn't matter anyway, any of these cost as much as an NSX or MKIV Supra in the states. I'll cope with my MK3 Supra and 01' Celica GT-S lol.
That’s my old car! 😊
ok, try this one,......MK1 BMW 125I MSport with 'normal' tyres no runflats....Cheap now?!