Pre-Dorian geography in the Iliad's Catalogue of Ships
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- Опубликовано: 14 мар 2022
- In ancient Greek legend, a series of migrations took place in between the Trojan War and the time of the 'now'. Here we look at how these migrations are reverted -- 'de-migrated' -- in the Catalog of Ships in Iliad book 2.
Re-recording for RUclips of a paper given at the ASCS 39 Conference, Feb. 2017.
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Come on, pronouncing toponyms in modern Greek is not serious.
Idk, its Greek to me..
Erasmian pronunciation is a joke medieval reconstruction . It makes a pleasant change to hear a RUclips narrator actually make a decent attempt to pronounce Kriti, Evvia instead of the usual abomination ," You-boy-a" and Peloponesos.But what the hell do we Greeks know? It's not as if we speak the language .Okay we no longer use tones, but modern pronunciation is a much more realistic approximation of an ancient language, than the efforts of a medieval Dutch twat.
Of course it is! You have to pronounce them somehow, and Modern Greek is the only living language that is a descendant of Ancient Greek (of course). It's the same language!
@@Evan490BC Didn't you notice he was speaking some other language?
Thank God he didn’t use that Erasmian abomination. Yes modern Greek pronunciation is not accurate historically but at least it’s the direct descendant of Homeric Greek unlike that Dutchman’s concoction serving only as a tool for Northern European rich brats who wanted to brag that they are learning Greek.
Algorithm waited 2 years to send this video out?
Ikr absolute banger
definitely worth the wait - as impenetrable as the original! ;)
BANGER
Great, at 62 I'm gonna have to read the Iliad and the Odyssey AGAIN!!! LOL. Well Done!
It is ALWAYS the right time to read Homer again!
The thing I always found fascinating about the Catalog of Ships is how out-of-place it seems-there is nothing else like it in Homer. That was, until I learned that lists such as this were exactly the type of writings found in Linear B. Could the Catalog of Ships be an actual pre-Dark Ages remnant that Homer (whoever he/they were) incorporated into the epic? Or, more likely, a deliberate pastiche of those documents?
Makes sense to me.
I've always thought the illiad incorporated material from older sources. Some things mentioned were unknown in Homer's time. Such as boars tusk helmets, and leopards. Lions are frequently mentioned but they were still around in his time period.
@@JosephPercente I tend to agree. If I’m not mistaken, the Greek’s use of chariots would be another example.
It looks like an incorporated list alright, but 1000+ ships is out of the question for the Hellenic world at that time... Each ship would require some 20-50 crew or more, for a total of 20-50 thousand warriors, again off-scale for that time. BUT, if the list was about CHARIOTS (or charioteers, 2 per chariot) instead, it would make sence! Mycenaic world was a loose confederation of more or less independent petty city-states. Each maintaining a standing corps of houshold troops, most probably charioteers, plus local levies. So, my conjuncture is that the original list was about the chariot corps maintained by each city-state, required in case of a levy-en-masse, or recorded by some intelligence service of the time for a particular king. For instance, 100 chariots (or perhaps 50 chariots with 100 charioteers) for city-state of Mycinae, is still a great number, but perhaps a realistic one, if this was the total inventory. And a total of 500 or 1000 chariots would make the total Mycenean army comparable to the contemporary Hittite expeditionary force at the battle of Cadesh. Several biblical and ancient sources list similar numbers for the great powers of Eastern mediteranean.
@@UGTLDG - How many chariots would go in each ship, which in those days would surely be monoremes? I doubt that many more than one would fit in each ship, unless you carried no infantry nor provisions.
The list may have been inflated, of course, at the very least rounded up, as most figures are suspiciously round. It does anyhow suggest the proportion of participation in the expedition of each ally.
Fascinating! Great use of visuals with outstanding narration. So interesting that they thought they knew, but we know that they didn’t know and we don’t know yet either.
Those 186 ships weren't bothered about Helen, they just wanted a trip to foreign parts to get some nice new vegetables, medicinal herbs and fruit for their gardens. The war was a convenient excuse.
thats how most historical wars have always gone, the warriors or soldiers are usually in it for travel, pay and loot and the leaders for the same and/or political goals. 'Reasons' or 'casus belli' just tend to be the reasonable sounding thing to the culture in question at the time, no one thinks of themselves or wants to be a villain so they say something heroic like "we're saving the princess!" or "we're liberators!"
Great, Sir ! what a lesson... Everything analysed and then synthesied rationally and simple. A Greek friend,
Demetrios Maniates.
Kiwi Hellenist
Thank you so much! For pronouncing Greek cities correctly! I just subscribed for that reason alone.
He's not pronouncing them correctly, he's prouncing them with a Greek pronunciation while speaking English. Immitating another language's phonology =/= correct pronunciation. If he was speaking Greek, then his pronunciation is "correct" (at least, ignoring all the ways in which he is almost certainly not perfectly replicating whatever dialect he is imitating). Considering how abnormal his pronunciations are within the context of English, I'd say it's an incorrect pronunciation. More reasonably, it's not correct or incorrect but a subjective difference in preference.
@@dylans8198 Yeah I understand what you are saying. Obviously I am not expecting him to pronounce each city with a spot on authentic Greek pronunciation... But COMPARED to pretty much every other English RUclipsr, he is the one with the best pronunciation that I have heard so far. There is obviously always room for improvement, but that's fine.
For example, he is one of the very few RUclipsrs that know that Greek words have intonation marks above the vowel of the syllable that you should intonate, and he is intonating them correctly. That alone for me gets a lot of positive points. And that's just one example...
I love the world. I was literally searching for this exact information just now.
They mostly ignore the Catalogue? How odd. It's fascinating on the face of it but you've added a whole other layer. Bravo!
Thanks for the presentation. I hadn't thought much about the catalogue of ships before but I did read through it when I read a translation of the Iliad a few years ago. One thing I noticed from the Odyssey is that Homer seems to know something about the "sea people" invasions of Egypt based on the story that Menelaus tells Telemachus and also the story Odysseus tells the swineherd. Both stories are not far from the Egyptian accounts.
Absolutely fascinating stuff. Thanks
Absolutely brilliant video!
Thanks, very glad you enjoyed it!
Great video and a good effort to understand the geography and the different tribes of Greeks during the Trojan war. The mistake everyone makes, is that they see archaic Greece geographically the same as classical known Greek city states, based on literature, so they see from Thesally and below. First of all, before Greeks called themselves Hellenes (and that came way later and not during ancient times, with one exception Leonidas), they called themselves Pelasgoi. The area the different tribes of Pelasgoi occupied were all the coastline of Greece and Asia Minor plus the islands of the Aegean. In the main land the old tribe of Arkadians were in Peloponnese, Macedonians on the North, Thracians North East and we have variations during the time and change of names during the centuries to the rest of mainland Greece. One is Graies (Graia means the old one) the name that the latins gave to all the Greeks for example. Achaioi and Ionians plus Aiolians are the main names as you presented. They do migrations from North to South and from West to East. Much later they do the same but this time from East to West and from South to North. So Achaioi for example occupy Crete at some time in the past before Trojan war and Peloponnese as well. All forget their previous name Pelasgoi and stick to the new ones Ioanian, Achaioi, Aiolians. So they stick to their group. After the Trojan war, Herodotus tells us that the troops returning from the war, called themselves Dorians and pillaged around Greece. After the dark ages (1200 to 800), they don't use those names anymore but they use the name of their city state or the regional name. Only Macedonians and Thracians kept their tribal names. By the way, Thracians and Asia Minor were allies with Troy, Thessaly and the southern mainland were with Achaioi and Macedonians because they were in the middle, they were Neutral. We know from other sources their answers for not participating the war. Same goes for Cyprus. The list of ships for many scholars, is a much more ancient list that Homer used for his poem. And actually we know 2 poets before Homer who wrote about the Trojan war but their work didn't survived. Another good source of info is the Cypriot epics (I don't know if the translation is correct). Trojan war was a great civil war, that changed the history of the Greek tribes but also the eastern Mediterranean, cause we know that Hittites participated on the side of Troy and after the fall, Achaioi went on an expedition and pillaged around the eastern Mediterranean sea. For me it's no surprise that we have the bronze age collapse during that time. Eastern Mediterranean was on fire.
Now about the name Hellenes. One of the tribes in Thessaly called themselves Hellenes and we see that from that list of ships. There are also Panhellenes in that list. And actually there is a city in central Greece called Hellas that participated. So they had the name of one of the kids of Defkalion.
Macedonia during that time was way smaller than today or during Alexander the Great, regionally speaking. Most of the area was called Thrace. In there (but now in Macedonia region) there was a city called Europa and were allies with the Trojans.
Please check about the things I wrote you. You will be amazed and probably you will change the way you look at some things that happened in history. And for sure make a video.
Very useful and informative.
First time seeing this gem. Instant like and subscribe, as well as a comment for the algorithm!
Wonderful study of the early migrations of the Med, it fits nicely with the overall age of the Sea people stories, excellent video. Thx. Greek mythology was my early key to history. 👍
Amazing work!
Fantastic video, and really well laid out. Do you have more on this subject I could watch/read? Historiography of Greek myths is a underdeveloped subject.
Really well done. Earned a sub and like here.
Thank you for this video. I will need to watch it a few more times. Fascinating. Subscribed.
I had no idea about the multiplicity of ethnicities in the Grecian region.
Truth to tell, I thought it was just Athens, Sparta, and "other Greeks."
Great video, thank you from Ukraine
Hope you're doing ok.
Thank you for watching! I wish you all the very best.
Thanks!
It's not an ethnic division but one of (1) core Greece, (2) peripheral insular "Greece" and (3) peripheral Thessalian "Greece". The latter two areas were actually ethnically mixed with Pelasgians and others, while core Greece was ethnically homogeneous after almost a whole millennium of Greek (Indoeuropean) domination.
In the days of the Trojan War (and subsequent destruction of the Hittite Empire by the Phrygians and "sea peoples", led by the Danaoi = Denesh = LBA Greeks), the Peloponese was surely called Achaia (hence Achaeans = Ekwesh = Ahhiyawa), was the core of BA Greece and spoke the precursor dialect of Arcadio-Cypriot (not Ionian, Ionian seems to have been from Attica, while Aeolian was original of Boeotia and Dorian from the borderlands with Thessaly).
A major detail of the Catalogue of ships that I find very interesting is the smallish contribution by Athens, which was clearly (both from legends and archaeology) already the second most important city of LBA Greece but seems for that very reason recalcitrant towards Mycenaean ("Argive") hegemony and keen to support their dynastic rivals: the Heraklids.
neat summary - couldn't say I know but sounds true to my ears
superb
Hm, I just spoted a peculiar pattern around 9:32 . Section 1 is also visibly divided into 3 sub-parts, 1a being exclusively Intermediate/Mynian, the we "move" to the singleton section 1b incorporating only Ionian Athens, and the rest is all Achaian... Any thoughts?
Hi! I‘m looking for an introduction that traces the origin of the better known Greek myths to local legends and their dissemination in conjunction with the migration patterns. Any recommendations? Alternatively -where could one find the bibliography to this?
This was most informative, thank you for your time and efforts! At 5:15, you pan over a map that details the migrations. So that I may pore over it myself, where did you find that map?
That map is my own creation, based on the textual sources -- I can provide the sources if you want (I can't remember now if I did so in the video), but I'm sure many people would be able to produce a prettier map!
NO MY VILLAGE IS UNPOPULATED IN THE MAP
In biblical terms, a generation is 40 years. This 40-year period represents a single generation that passed away before the next generation would inherit.
The works of the great poet, Homer, are filled with words that not only survive in Albanian but continue to be used. From Homer, you can get not only words but also phrases that possess all the signs of a typical Albanian expression. If someone were to interpret Homer from the Albanian language perspective, much light would be shed on the works of that famous poet. Between Homeric and Albanian sentences, there is a striking resemblance in expression, phraseology, and sentence structure. A study of this nature would help interpret Homer, since the Albanian language is older than that of Greece (Science Magazine 2023), much can be learned about the influence of this [Albanian] on Homeric and later Greek.
Title: Unconquerable Albania
Author : Christ Anton Lepon
Publisher: Chicago, Albanian Liberation Committee, 1944
Zeus was a Pelasgian, not a Helen. After Illyad the language of Gods was Gheg - North Albanian Dialect. (Herodotus)
I would have a question about the author of the catalogue of ships. I've been taught that second book is older than the rest of Illiad based on the differences between who is ruling what i the catalogue compared to the same peolle being rulers of different locales in the other 23 books.
So is Homer writing the catalogue or is he using previously existing oral tradition?
That's still believed by a very few people, esp. Richard Hope Simpson, but it's considered very much a fringe viewpoint, verging on crackpottery. Some placenames within the Catalogue are archaisms, but we know independently that many placenames continued to be in use -- Eutresis, for example, was abandoned around 1200 BCE and not resettled until I think the Hellenistic era, but a classical-era inscription at the site shows that the name was still in use. The overall structure points firmly to an 8th-7th century BCE context. In addition, the composition of the Catalogue and the formulas it uses rely heavily a very recent form for the word 'ships', νέες, which is a late Ionicism probably dating to the 600s BCE.
Υπέροχο
Ευχαριστώ!
The algorithm gods smiled on me once. Once….
Why would the author of the Iliad pick and choose like that?
That's the open question. What we know for certain is that the Catalogue of Ships falls into these three sections. Everything beyond that is ... well.
Recent scholarship on the subject falls short. Best I can recommend is Giovannini's 1969 book Étude historique sur les origines du catalogue du vaisseaux. Giovannini still gets cited, but not many recent scholars actually put any stock in his argument. His idea is that the sections and routes laid out by the Catalogue is modelled on early itineraries of sacred envoys from Delphi, of which one exemplar from around 200 BCE shows some partial parallels to the Catalogue, especially within section 1.
As I said, Giovannini doesn't usually get cited with approval. But -- 55 years old though it is -- his is still the most recent attempt to make sense of both the Catalogue's division into three sections, and the route followed within section 1.
So all the pre-classical Mycenaeans, after the Trojan War, up and leave their city-states to migrate elsewhere? Why abandon sedentary life to become nomadic? Why abandon the established "High Kingdom" tributary relationship of the Wanax of that period that managed to launch all these ships? The Bronze Age Collapse had already passed by this point right?
The classical-era Greeks believed migrations happened (without knowing anything at all about the Mycenaean palace culture, mind). Some people do genuinely believe it too, or some of it, but this is legend first and foremost.
The Late Bronze Age collapse is a lenghty period surely spanning since c. 1300 BCE (in Italy and parts of SW Europe: Celto-Italic invasions, collapse of El Argar civilization, which traded with Greece) to c. 1070 BCE (when the Meswesh take over Lower Egypt and probably also the final destruction of BA Greece happened), or even up to c. 900 BCE (already in the Iron Age in fact), when the Tyrsenians (Etruscans, surely the Teresh of the "sea peoples") conquer much of Italy (and plausibly the Shekelesh = Sicels took over Sicily simultaneously).
My take is that the Trojan war and subsequent double "sea peoples" invasions recorded by Egypt (c. 1178 and 1175 BCE), including the Greek conquest of Cyprus, the destruction of both Hattussa and Ugarit and two failed attempts to invade Egypt, were only the beginning of the collapse in the Eastern Mediterranean. That c. 1130 BCE was the Dorian invasion (Greek dynastic dispute at the core but that resulted in the abandonment of the palaces) and that c. 1070 BCE there was another invasion that conquered Lower Egypt and destroyed most Greek cities (to me it fits the narration of Atlantis, as Athens was the only significant survivor and a potential Atlantis-like Iberian civilization collapsed near those dates, almost certainly after a mega-tsunami).
As for the migrations: chaos and destruction behind seem a good reason to settle elsewhere but also, as we observe in much of Greek activities, both legendary and historical, pirating and looting was part of their way of life. And not just of the Greeks, the Sherden or Nuraghic Sardinians and the Ausones of Southern Italy, plausibly the Weshesh of the "sea peoples", were also into piracy or Viking-like lifestyle, as well, along with all the Aegean and maybe Phoenician-precursor peoples mentioned in the "sea peoples" catalogues: the Shekelesh, the Teresh, the Tjekker, the Lukka, etc.
Conquering and establishing a colony, as these often did, would also entice migration to the new promising settlement. The majority of people in or around those colonies would still be native to the place but the elites would be immigrant rather.
Gotcha gotcha
The topic is fascinating, and the knowledge seems excellent. Unfortunately, the gentleman's diction is both extremely high class, and so ultra rapid, that I find it hard to follow. Could the gentleman maybe speak at a calmer speed in further videos, kindly?
Hi, with this video I believe I did manually add subtitles, which may help -- auto-translation should also work well if English isn't your native language.
Dear Sir, thank you for your response, and your finesse. I did not see the subtitles, but I may simply have missed them. Subtitles are an excellent idea, thank you for what you do
@@jeffreyhawthornegoines8727you forgot to enable them. You do that exactly the same way as with any other video of RUclips that has subtitles.
Ta :)
186 ships were crewed by people who thought Helen was meh... ;-)
VERY clever!
(esp. for a kiwi!) ;~ ]
Sparta and Argos were arch-rivals. It's not surprising they would propound competing, mutually exclusive mythologies, one Argive-centric, the other hearkening to the hero Herakles.
Arch-rivals they may well have been but, remember, they're both Dorian 🤨
Not in this timeline. Argos (Argolid) was under Mycenaean control and, per the Illiad, so was Sparta (under a brother of the Mycenean king).
@@LuisAldamiz Well, that's not the period Argos and Sparta become rivals - fierce rivals I might add. 🤔
@@Abernis It is the timeline discussed in the video however.
I'm not sure of the exact details but Argos clearly shifted (as did other polities) from aristocratic monarchy to democracy and did so by Argos-city becoming dominant over Mycenae and Tyrins. Meanwhile in Sparta the most horrible oligarchy ever was born...
@@LuisAldamiz "the most horrible oligarchy ever.." (very) strong words there for the people who basically saved europe from the 1st asian invasion. Anyways, Argos and Sparta were Achaean kingdoms during the bronze age with very close ties. It's AFTER the Dorians "descend" that the rivalry begins both becoming Dorian city-states. 🤨
Those Argives needed to be a little aloof and self-interested if they were going to pick fights with Sparta as planned.
Δεν ξέρετε τι σας γίνεται........
1. Pelasgians are the ancestors of the greeks, proto-helllens.
2. It`s not doric invasion, it`s the doric return!!!! Doros started from Arcadia to the north and returned back again!! With the knowledge of the ancient greek dialects we can precisely proof the time and the spread of the greek tribes. The flood of Deukalion, the Father of Hellen, is dated around 10.000 b.c. based on geological and genealogical evidence. So the Dorians and their doric dialect
Meds
The story told by Homer is a mashup of events that happened during an earlier Trojan War, circa the time of The Fall of Empires at the end of the 12th Century BC, with events witnessed by the poet, in the last Trojan War, at the end of the 8th Century BC. The story he weaves blends the Mycenaean heroes with later Greeks, with Athena and Ares weaving through both.
The ancient past, from that 8th Century BC date, all the way back to Noah's Flood, in the mid-25th Century BC, is a confused and chaotic period, marked by stories even more "outrageous" than Homer's. "Historians" ascribed these to Man's need for entertainment or amusement, but mostly, they're "survivor stories", told by those fortunate enough to survive catastrophic events that defied description to people with little or no understanding of the normal processes in the Universe at large, and our Solar System in specific.
Titanic events shaped the world we take for granted, cut us off from our distant ancestors, and left the human race racked with phobias, night terrors, xenophobia, and rampant racism. It destroyed everything, more than a few times, leaving survivors scattered and shattered, providing early writers, such as Homer and Plato, with the grist for their mills, enriching our lives with stories of heroes, great loves, titanic struggles, and a wide range of characters who defined the times and the places. Stories, poems, and ballads were based on stories told by the grandchildren of survivors. These were times of drastic change, from one generation to the next, of landscapes dramatically changed by massive earthquakes, epic storms and monumental uplifts, until a brave, new world emerged from the old.
I get the impression that Greek identity is based on a sex change: Ishtar/Shaushka/Hel/Helena, the daughter of An/Teshub/Tor/Zeus, is the main goddess of the Greeks in the bronze age and they go to war against Troy in her name, so they are called Helenes after that. But then everything falls apart, the Greeks feel bad about having followed Hel and so they change her into a human princess in the war story and into a man called Hellen so they can still keep their name.
A little less drugs please.. 🤔
Ιshtar is same as Aphrodite
@@lorumasteraceae- I think the Greeks have provided a record of how they demoted Ishtar/Shaushka/Hel/Helena from goddess to princess and distributed her divine powers to other goddesses in the judgement of Paris story line: Hera, Athena and Aphrodite each get some of Helena's original attributes and then Aphrodite bribes Paris (of Troy) with "the most beautiful *mortal* woman" so that he (Paris) will state that she (Aphrodite) is "the fairest one", leading to the abduction of Helena to Troy and the Trojan war. It's all there: Helena used to be a goddess (and still has god like treatment in large parts of the story), but is demoted to most beautiful mortal women, which is linked to the both the Trojan war and the other goddesses sort of battling out which one of them will inherit the vacant powers. Aphrodite wins at first, but we all know that Athena ended up more powerful after that.
@@lorumasteraceae- - She has also Athene-like theme: war goddess, owl totem.
I buy that Helen could have been a goddess, venerated at Sparta as such in classical times, and quite possibly a goddess to which the local king was ritually married (a tradition also documented among Irish and Basques). If so, Paris did not steal an actual woman but either an idol or something closely related to that source of regnant legitimacy by ritual marriage.
Another theory I have is that Helen could be the old name of the Aegean Sea or, more straightforwardly, the Marmara Sea (Hellespont = sea of Hell-as?). This because the Illiad only uses once the ethnonym "Hellenes", prefering Argives (those from Argolide, i.e. Mycenaeans senso stricto or maybe sometimes also lax as "all under the Mycenaean leadership or hegemony"), Achaeans (Ekwesh of the "sea peoples", Ahhiyawa for the Hittites, probably meaning "those of the Peloponese") and Danaoi (Denesh of the "sea peoples", maybe the original pan-ethnonym for Greeks in general). In classical times Hellene became common but Western Greeks called themselves Graikos instead, what suggest to me that they could have meant "from the Aegean Sea" and "from the Ionian Sea" respectively. Unsure anyhow.
What I don't see clear at all is how you relate Helen with Ishtar, the latter being more apparently related to Aphrodite (as godess of sex and love) and Athene (as war goddess and using the owl icon). It's not even similar in name.
How the hell gives a monkey? So the books written thousands of years got some of it wrong, Homer tweeted a few things. So what? Not as if it's a cure for cancer or a vaccine for covids or something, still makes for good movies(mostly) even if it's only partly true or even complete BS.
If Zeus killed everyone in the flood how come the Macedonians survived ? Macedonians are the sons of Zeus and not the sons of Deucalion like Hellenes? 🤔🤔 you see Magnes and Makedon can not be Hellen as Thucydides put it; “before Hellen the name Hellas didn’t exist but rather there were various tribes which went under different names, particularly Pelasgian”
Macedons are dorians
Thucydides don't mention that you are lying.
"οὖν ἀφ Ελληνος ,τοὺς καλουμένους Γραικοὺς προσηγόρευσεν Ἕλληνας(Απολλόδωρος, Α, 7, 1 - 3) =after the birth of Hellen the previously named Greeks were called Hellenes.
Makedonians were from the dynasty of Argives ,Heracleides,much later than the flood.
Pelasgians were neolithic populations who were Hellenized.
And you are a slavobulgarian ,and this is not bad.
@@wardafournelloΠως τον πετσόκοψες έτσι
Hellens come from Pelasgian Leleges(Lejlek) Πελαργός 🦅🇦🇱🦅 Π’ΕΛΛΑΣ’Γ->Pelasgian
All Illyrian tribes-Pelasgian 🦅🇦🇱🦅,P’ellas’g PELLASG
You are Turkish colonists 😁
10:14 Pellazgians are the Origjinal people that lived in Modern Greeks. Greeks come from Asia Manor , Pellazgët are Theodore Albanians, 🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱
Tell us the name of an ancient Albanian historian who supports what you say.
Is that all u have?Lies and selling bad quality cannabis & 13:46 Turkish heroin? Eddie Rama is Tayip Erd pet.U have no BESA.Γεώργιος ΚΑΣΤΡΙΩΤΗΣ did have.
Ethnic greeks in the illyad??? How scientific is that?
Linear B' is Greek language.
you should read more before asking ignorant questions... how sad 😢
Albanians the Oldest Civilization ever. Greeks and others come After the Albanians 🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱🇦🇱
Tell us the name of an ancient Albanian historian who supports what you say.
@wardafournello check out Google, the oldest civilization found in Albania few years ago. Also Google it few years ago they also found the oldest language in Europe the Albanian language. Entire Histrionic we know b4 was a BIG LIE.
R U on ACID or DRUNK?
@@albaniansuperiorshqipetari8055stop the nonsense 😢
@@user-xt2cr1dy6i is that what you do? Take Acid and get drunk?