Sick video, this is definitely a topic people don't talk about enough. I always think about the whole Dorian thing as a material culture thing rather than a migration or invasion. Bias of an Archaeologist though. The real honey pot is just what exactly happened across Greece and the Balkans during the local dark ages. Videos on Illyria and Epirus would be cool as well 👍
@@WanaxTV WHAT ARE YOU SERVING IS A HUGE BULLSHIT THAT'S WHY YOU WHIPPED OFF MY OPINION. WHAT YOU SELLING HAS BEEN SOLD OUT BEFORE. THE TRUTH IS COMING OUT YOU WANT IT OR NOT....
I'm always reminded of a quote David Reich (the geneticist) uses in his Book: Who We Are And How We Got Here (p. 126): "But the lack of archaeological evidence does not mean that there were no major incursions from the outside. Between 1600-1500 years ago, the western Roman Empire collapsed under the pressure of the Germanic expansions, with great economic blows dealt to the western Roman Empire when the Visigoths and Vandals each sacked Rome and took political control of Roman provinces. However, there so far seems to be little archaeological evidence for destruction of Roman cities in this time, and if not for the detailed historical accounts, we might not know these pivotal events occurred." [Bryan Ward-Perkins: The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization.]
@@YorshZed Fnding foreign burial forms isnt at all uncommon in a multiethnic empire like rome - in late imperial times the army was made up from 3/4 auxilia and foederati. Many of which earned citizens rights after 20 years of service, and not too few where drawn to the imperial centers if they had the resources. Rome had greek and egyption, celtic and nubian immigrants who brougt their gods, their foods, their burial customs. What Ward-Perkins and thus the op point to is that we dont see widespread destruction horizons in the archeology like the bronze-age collapse, Mongol invasion or the incan andean blitzkrieg left behind. Because the germanic invaders took over instead of burning the landscape, and left much of the roman managerial elite in place. A Vandal nobleman didnt know how to upkeep aqueducts or organize transmediterranean resource trade.
Rome collapsed from internal strife not Germanic invasions. If the legions didn’t keep getting destroyed without replenishment from civil wars then they would’ve been able to hold Africa and retain their main tax revenue province
According to Homer in Odyssey, the Dorians are already present among the poplulations of Mycenaean Crete. So for Homer, the Dorians are present in the Mycenaean period in the Hellenic peninsula. So it's possible that the Dorians are the inhabitants of the mountainοus terrains of Greece, who moved in the plains, with the decline of the Mycenean palace centers, and assumed control gradually. For this reason the Dorian is a more archaic dialect, in comparison with the Ionian.
Most of this nonsense was dreamt up by Kosmas Medici who decided that Lydian Oligarchy needs "heroic" origins. "Hellenic" is a pseudo-identity like "British" or "Soviet". The Lydians who started colonising South Thrace through Athens, were considered foreigners in Sparta and lived in the Merchant Periohi (the prototype for the "Jewish Ghetto"). Although the modern Lydian Oligarchs enjoy masquerading under their fictional "Jewish" identity, their most valued fiction is the "Greek" identity.
@@giorgosstamatopoulos8115 Who is crying re Stamati? 😀 Learn who the real Greeks are, where they came from, where they went and how they are ruling you from overseas.
I heard somewhere that there were a serf class in the ancient Mycenaean society called "Doroi" (or something like that). If we assume the Bronze age collapse was ignited by climate changes and the ruling class being unable to provide for the population, we could also devise some of the classes lying below the Achaean, to rebel again their rulers and establishing themselves as the dominant class in the society. The tale of descending form Hercles was often used in Grece to provide a veil of nobility.
There were recorded palatial and religious servants with name "Dōrieus", presumably named so after their place of origin, which would mean that they came from Doris, but not that there was any social class called "Doroi" that meant that Dorians were slaves. Ancient Greek word for slave is "doulos". In Mycenaean Greek, that was "do-e-ro" (with "r" being modern insertion for categorization purposes, for a sign that was actually used by Mycenaeans for both "R" and "L" sounds) - so it was actually spelled "do-e-lo" by the Mycenaeans and pronounced close to "doelos" (since "s" was present in pronunciation but not written). Similar how "Pylos" in modern Linear B reconstruction system is written as "Pu-ro" while the Mycenaeans would actually spell it "Pu-lo" or "Py-lo", and would pronounce it "Pylos".
I have the sense that the Dorians were an ethnic group that existed in the Greek world during Mycenaean times, that overthrew the ruling Mycenaeans with the aid of a small group of, ethnically related, warrior elites: the Heracleidae. I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong) that Achilles, (Who's physical description in the Iliad sounds Dorian to me), has a tenuous relationship to Heracles.
Doris was a small district between Thessaly and Boeotia, close to Phtiotis (coastal south Thessaly) and surely sharing the same dialect (early Western Greek or proto-Dorian, in those days "Northern Greek" would be a much better label anyhow, in contrast with the two Central Greek dialects: Aeolian in Boeotia and Ionian in Attica, and also with Mycenaean proper or Arcado-Cypriot, spoken in the Peloponese, then called Achaea, primarily). Doris is where, per the legend, the Heraclids found refuge after leaving Athens (which hosted them first, suggesting rivalry with Mycenae). A whole century went through before they could reclaim what they considered theirs. However they did not really destroy the cities (even if these show decline and "palace abandonment"), that destruction happened later and was probably a foreign invasion, only Athens survived unscathed.
I'm assuming OP is referring to Akhilleus' hair which is described as "xanthos" in the Iliad. Xanthos can be translated as fair, shining, light, or blonde. Dorian's were said to be northern Greeks, so some could assume they were fairer haired@@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319
I think OP is referring to Achilles' hair, which is called "xanthos" in the Iliad which can be translated as fair, gold, shining, or blonde. The Dorians are held to be northern Greeks, and so are easily envisioned as fairer in hair and skin than other Greeks@@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319
@@dixonj41 In the Iliad though, the Achaeans are all described as "fair-haired". So I thought it was more of an Achaean rather than Dorian perception. But thank you for your answer. I think I learned something new.
I think many Victorian classicists and archaeologists overplayed the whole Dorian thing because, if only subconsciously, they liked the idea of invaders coming from more northerly climes in Europe and creating the wonders of classical Greece. Many were British, Germans etc. There was a vanity element to the theory.
That's absolutely true, what doesn't mean that there was no Dorian invasion, just that it was a dynastic war between Greeks and not any such (totally unproven) migration from further North.
4:16 missed opportunity to say House Atreides... Pausanias gives some more details about the alleged invasion. The Heraclides couldn't break through the isthmus at Corinth but they allied with an Aetolian, Oxylus, who led them across the narrow sea to Achaea (which wasn't called that yet, it supposedly got its name from all the Achaean refugees who went there and took over from the local Ionians afterwards). They then went through Arcadia (securing an alliance with the local ruler) and hit the Achaeans from behind. Oxylus himself led his Aetolians to Elis, where he succeeded in becoming king, but with equal rights for the local Epeians. This explained why the Elians spoke a dialect closer to that of the Aetolians than to any other Peloponnesians. My guess is that such an invasion really did happen, but didn't involve complete population replacements. It may have been a result of previous instability and collapse rather than the cause of it, but whatever the case no part of Greece remained unaffected. Euboea had the least disruption and led Greece afterwards in culture and commerce, until the Lelantine War sapped the strength of its two major cities.
I find it unlikely that Dorian was a Peloponnesian sociolect given that it apparently bore closer relation to Northwestern Greek than to neighbouring Achaean. Class and environment are huge influences on language but geographically related upper and lower class sociolects will be more closely related than any two geographically distant dialects. Also, the fact that Dorian dialects were scattered throughout Greece non-contigously points to migrants passing through some areas to settle in more desirable ones.
Which is not true, in fact Dorian Greek had more in common with Arcadian rather than West-North Greek. Even the Attic dialect was more similar to NW Greek, than Dorian.
I see no reason to doubt the basic narrative about the "Heraclidae" ending the line of Atreus through battle (however large or small an affair such a conflict was), establishing new dynasties across the Peloponnese with the power and prestige this garnered them, and then inviting some of their friends from up north. But none of this really seems to amount to a migration-type invasion, bringing everything all at once. Their expeditionary invasion was successful and over time more of them would have come, born out in the distinction with the periokoi in archaic and classical times. Perhaps we need to distinguish between different types of invasion, since some may fit better than others.
There are several periods of discontinuity in the archaeological record and of foreign presence at the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age. Difficult to know which one corresponds to the Dorian invasion, but there is no real reason to reject the historicity of such an invasion just because we can't decide which archaeological changes it may correspond to.
@@YorshZed I meant, there are several periods of discontinuity for those who have studied archaeological sites, the succession of layers in tells, prehistorians, not for those who have just a vague idea of what they are talking about.
@@petrapetrakoliou8979 For archeologists there are no discontinuity between Iron Age Greeks and Mycenaeans. All Ancient Greek cultures are descendants of the Mycenaean culture.
@@YorshZed Things are a little more complicated than that. There is no discontinuity in some domains like the arts and certain know-how, rather a drop in quality, but elsewhere there are huge rapid changes in the material culture succeeding to destructive phases and all kinds of intrusions of foreign cultures into the local, mostly Balkanic and Danubian cultures as it seems as well as local displacements, but not simultaneously. So "no discontinuity" is a way of putting it, but perhaps that's stretching it a little too much and "great discontinuities in several domains, and some continuity in others" would better describe the situation.
@@petrapetrakoliou8979 drop in quality is not discontinuity. And drop in quality is not evidence of invasion. Changes are not huge by the way. Ancient Greek pottery of 8th century bc is almost a copy of the Mycenaean pottery. Destructions were caused by different reasons, some of them include earthquakes, piracy, social unrest and material-economic changes. Invasion is not needed for that. What local intrusions? Can you give us an example?
A population of Doric speaking Greeks invading the Peloponnes is extremely plausible. The Greek dark arges are extremely murky, but mythological historical accounts often contain hints of truth. I think it's perfectly plausible the Dorians took the remains of palatial centers and towns after the sea peoples and overtook the Achaeans as the ruling elite in the regions they took.
The DNA evidence indicates Dorians and Mycenaeans were the same people or were very closely related. So at best they were a different class of culture of Greeks. So it seems that the Dorian Invasion was just one group of Greeks overthrowing another.
@@TrontotarioIt's explainable by the lack of DNA evidence supporting an influx of foreigners. Modern Greeks are closely related to the Mycenaeans. An invading horde that was able to overthrow the Mycenaeans should be reflected in the DNA of modern Greeks.
@@Trontotario Check DNA of the Ancient Dorian colonies in Google. Also there are few samples from Iron Age Greece without higher steppe admixture. They all look like Mycenaeans basically, but with some small Anatolian dilution (around 10%). Which means there was no Dorian invasion probably, otherwise it would influence Ancient Greek population.
As a result of the continuous crop failures, many Achaeans either surrendered or joined forces with the Sea People. This led to a decline in trade and uprisings among some governing classes. In some regions, the tiny group of Heraclidae became the dominant class, with the support of the native Dorians in others.
@@FutureMythology To be honest I’m not sure. I find it difficult to see climate change and crops resulting in uprisings that led to chain of destruction across Peloponnese, central Greece, Crete, Miletus, etc. I think that the logistics of it are not very possible. Mycenaeans are recorded sponsoring anti-Hittite uprisings in late 13th century BC. In early 12th century, all of their major cities are sacked and destroyed. Pylos evidently by a sea attack. I think that such destruction could’ve only been caused by an overwhelming military force. Note that Mycenae and Tiryns had minor revivals following destruction, and that Tiryns remained a Mycenaean stronghold into 11th century BC. As for what happened in that period (1170-1070 BC) I’m really not sure. I’m not ruling out struggles between classes or tribes, but on a much, much smaller scale than Mycenaean civilization collapse.
@@WanaxTV Currently, there is not a comprehensive publication of the evidence that has been interpreted by archaeologists as destruction of the Mycenean palace centres from north to south, let alone the evidence for the precise dating. And as you say some destructions seem to be temporary, as life seems to go on. Depending on the precise date of destruction in each site, different reasons may apply and ancient writers give us quite a few. For example, Orchomenus could have been destroyed by Thebans (see legend of Creon’s command to Hercules), Thebes could have been destroyed by Argolid forces (see legend of Epigoni). Destructions in Mycenae could have been caused by the first attack of Heraclidae and Dorians (as Hyllus passed the Isthmus and stayed in Peloponnese for a year before retreating to Thessaly). Interestingly there are no legends on the destruction of Iolcos and Pylos, while legend is fully accurate that Athens was never destroyed. As a naval attack is suggested for Pylos, only the wanax of Mycenae could have the ships to do that (but why?) or Sherden (Sardinian) pirates known to be a band of the Sea peoples. Rameses III also boasts in an Egyptian monument from the 12th century, that he slew Denyen (Danaans) in their isles after the battle with the Sea Peoples at the Delta, but scholars believe it is far fetched that an Egyptian fleet actually attacked Aegean cities.
There's enough proofs to support the theory of invasion. The problem is in what we consider by invasion in this case. The only thing we know for sure is that Dorians came from the north of Peloponnesian. Probably from Acarnia or Thessaly or both. They were not seafarers.
It’s like the settlement of New England by the English in the 17th century. The land was sparsely populated after a smallpox or other European disease outbreak. There was some cohabitation but it eventually evolved into warfare.
Most of the Americas were sparsely populated. There wasn't technology to support a large population to include domesticated animals. Indigenous populations didn't have fixed settlements north of central America. Disease idea was proposed at a desperate attempt to explain smaller population.
Could it be similar to the conquest of England by William the Conqueror's knights of Normandy? It seems that in that case (also?) only the upper classes settled in the British Isles? Correct me if I am wrong.
The Dorians seem to have done away with tailors. Suddenly, the Greeks appear to be wearing bed sheets that keep falling off whereas, in the Myceanean period, the standard was closely fitted clothing.
All indians in north america even of a certain area wore the same? Clothing is a piece not just of culture but environment climate religion combat results and about 100 different things . Yet should one attempts to look into it has to give me mind that is taking the risk to put today's criteria in his research the first thing that you learn in the history university course to avoid. Which means study for once
The case that you westerners do not understand is that Greek History is much older than you think. Ancient greek tradition reports 3 Cataclysms... But Western history only one... This is a fine example...
It is impossible to explain how all Greeks in all edges of the world would be convinced to adopt an invented story at the same time, let alone how the enemies of the Dorians (Athenians - Ionians) would not contest a potential lie. The Dorian invasion to be contested specific proof should be presented to discredit the key points of the narrative: - the Dorians were nomadic moving on the periphery of the Mycenean kingdoms from the mountains of Thessaly and Pindus to Phocis - their last foothold being called Doris, a toponym passed on to next generations. Dorians also means forest people, which is consistent with where they leaved initially. - Doric belongs to the northwestern Greek dialects, as Macedonian and Epirotic, which is consistent with the above dwelling. The Mycenean Linear B dialect is rather connected with Iron Age Aeolic and more strongly with Iron Age Arcadian and Cypriot compared to Doric, which must have happened only if the interaction of the two dialects was not close. - the Dorians were too weak to beat the Mycenean kingdoms on their heyday and perhaps not motivated. They were joined by Acheans and Aetolians who knew the routes. And it was not an instant try to reach Peloponese. - their attack was successful only after the Mycenean kingdoms had been severely weakened by civil wars for throne successions, external war in Anatolia (Trojan war) and trade collapse in eastern Mediterrenean due to the rise of sea raids / piracy and the fall of Cyprus, Ugarit and the Hittites. The palace economy and bureaucracy must have crumbled, potentially causing social unrest. Achaean nobles are reported to start leaving Greek mainland to migrate elsewhere before the final Dorian invasion, which could be a sign of lack of role in a diminished palace system, lack of resources to run the economy and search for new lands and markets. - There was only one battle fought, and that in open field, that determined the fate of Peloponese, which is difficult to have left any arcaeological traits. The last king of Mycenae was killed and no family is reported. The rest Achaeans are reported to either surrender or negotiate safe passage after that. Dorians are not reported to besiege and destroy cities or to be interested in marrying Achaean princesses and reviving Mycenean traditions, beaurocracy and palace economy (whatever was left by then). - Dorians made Argos as their capital in Argolis, while Mycenae practically was abandoned and became a village among legendary ruins. In Laconia, they established a number of villages that would later become Sparta. Again the Mycenean-era “Sparta”, whether Amuclae or Menelaeon, is not used. In Messenia, the Achaean nobles (Neleids) fled Pylos to Attica where they were reported until classical times. Dorians founded Stenyclaros as their new capital. There is a pattern there, where Dorians do not use the strongly fortified Mycenean cities and they do not continue the Mycenean administration and writing system. This is not consistent with a scenario of social uprising of Dorian serfs coordinating themselves and taking over three Achaean kingdoms from inside all at once, especially based on an assumed common ideology that they are all Dorian-speaking. If they lived in the workshops of fortified Pylos, why leave and establish practically a village in Stenyclaros?
@alps they put their enemy lang in their theatrical plays! That 's a tesla invention! By studying a book and trying to blend history in order to to reach a conclusion that you that you are keen on ir makes you comfortable that's cooking not history
@@nezperce2767For those who might not get it: the Dorian invasion is a well documented event in ancient literature, believed to be a historical fact by ancient historians and the public. While we have a lot of evidence / arguments that support the ancient narrative (see above), there is no evidence /argument that discredits it or proves something else. “I believe it is a myth”, “My alternative theory is that…”, if not supported by convincing evidence, are only working theories. This is how science works with any theory: step 1. discredit established theory; step 2. establish alternative theory. There is nothing wrong with public misconception; it happens. Troy, Mycenae and Knossos were considered legendary before being unearthed.
What if it's similar to the story of dune, and some exiles from somewhere else ended up in greece and took advantage of the culture and were like "yes, it is us, the sons of heracles returned!" and leveraged that for some socio-political advantages and lived as kings until they died and greece was left with a hard to explain cultural shift and a bunch of people claiming to be descended from them.
Not a coincidence, but quite deliberate on the part of Frank Herbert. House Atreides is named after Atreus, the Mycenean king who exiled the sons of Heracles.
It's a really mysterious and fascinating moment in history, I personally think the answer lies within genetics, the more we can piece the puzzle together we will start to able to see parts of the picture. I do believe in the Dorian Invasion but I think we don't know the whole story yet.. There could be some major surprises to be discovered and I hope this subject gets researched more to unearth them. Maybe something in the mythology is hiding something...
Many Achaeans either fell to or joined with the Sea People when there were repeated crop failures. This collapsed trade and some ruling elites had revolts. The small group of Heraclidae took over as the ruling class in some areas who were supported in some areas by native Dorians.
I think these legends of certain dialect-speaking groups, lime the Dorians, probably preserve a kernel of truth about migrations and settlements, after all, they date back to at least Herodotus. I don’t know about a “conquest”, but perhaps there were a few important, possibly related, chiefs who dominated these groups. Except for the divine origins of certain families or peoples, of course, but many ancient cultures have such myths, often of fairly recent adoption when recorded. I am a Dorian Greek, my family is from the Southern Peloponnesos. Herodotus has been repeatedly proven right through archaeology, so why not about this? For example, he said the Phrygians inhaled smoke from cannabis seeds burnt on brass tripods. This formerly “unbelievable story” was recently proved correct when such tripods with burnt cannabis seeds were discovered among Phrygian archaeological sites!
There is a theory that there was no invasion, but instead the lower class destroyed the palaces after they rebelled and then formed the Dorians as a new group. (Linear B: 𐀈𐀁𐀫, do-e-ro, "male slave"; latter Greek form: δοῦλος).
Good note. But the theory is flawed and based on misconceptions on modern pragmatic labels for Linear B signs. 𐀫 in Mycenaean Greek is pronounced both as "ro" and "lo" depending on the case. "r" instead of "l" is simply chosen by modern linguists so that they can more easily differentiate between the signs. 𐀈𐀁𐀫 is more correctly spelled as "do-e-lo" and pronounced "doelos" (thus very similar to "doulos").
@@WanaxTVDorian means the one who carries spear. ( O feron dory= ο φέρων δόρυ)In front of you is revealed the beginning of the greek phalanx. Also Dorians was that greek people who followed the campaign of Hercules to the north. We talk about a return not an invasion at a collapsed bronze world kingdom. The deference is the way they fighting and they are bringers of iron weapons usage. Before them only myrmidons fought with the formation of phalanx.
similar to the difference between hebrew and caananite, I believe the dorians were probably expellees from the cities who, over time, grew in number in the hills until they were able to reconquer the cities.
I guess,a local fruit in my home country named Durian,come from word Dorian.Those people in about late 13th.century AD in Southeast Asia,the one with Achaeans Tongue-like sword,my personal belongings by hereditary,found fruit Inland,named it,remembering the most advanced weapon at ancient days of their ancestors in Greek,a metal ball with spikes.The letter 'O' become 'U' as times passed by.
IT seems to me ,that Dorioi meinst simple,the Spears.meaning a warriorband unter its leader.this Kind of Bands May habe Gashtered after the decline of the Achijavan Highkingdom and Concorde their Sitzes of Power,than scattering on their own along the southern Islands, aß ist seen espescially in Crete were the tribal Organisation was Not followed and more.
The times of the Myceneans are indeed very confusing since there were no historians to keep a record ( or if they were is not saved). So our only option for a histocal record is the verbal myths of the past. Heracles and Eurystheus probably represent the two mightiest tribes of the time : the Achaeans and Dorians who were related to each other( both Greek) but different social status, living together .At some point the two classes collide and a big part of the Dorians, beeing the weakest, had to flee Pelopponese and move north, away from the Achaean dominance. After their collapse due to different reasons, the Dorians (Heraclides) were given a chance to go back to the "good" country, warmer and more suitable for farming. There might not have been a big scale wars but possible some of the cities must have fought the newcomers. So overall as you said the truth is somewhere in between.
After reading all the comments - and answering to everybody - There is not much "mystery" about the Dorian "Invasion". First of all, the term is historically wrong, because it is described as "η κάθοδος των Δωριέων" - Dorian descent. Second, the Dorians were a distinct Hellenic tribe with their own dialect and customs, a dialect that is practically identical with Macedonian, to the point that in the times of Alexander were still very minor differences between them, so any marxist - like interpretations that they were a particular class are wrong. Third, we know very well their starting point, that is from the region of Pieria, in proximity with the mount Olympus. Fourth, we know details about this, the persons, the point that they crossed in the Corinthian Gulf etc. I hope that this helped.
@@manos6969for example myth says that my hometown Naupaktos was created by Dorians in the location that they build ships to cross the sea The word comes from Ναυ+πηγνυμι(Ship building)
The Biblical reccord 1Kings6 says the Hebrews left Egypt abt 1440 BC, and destroyed all but the coastal Cannanite cities abt 1400 BC. Some records seem to say Egypt lost control of Cannan about this time. i found your Crete video abt min 6 saying the Caanites left Crete around 1200BC for Cannan? Anyway, seems to be a conflict here? Thanks, Lewis
The Dorian invasion theory seems like one of those mythical beliefs a group uses to justify their dominance in a region they migrated to in the not so distant past. Clearly Doric speaking people were different from people who spoke other dialects of Greek at least linguistically but probably culturally in some small ways. When you are so similar in other cultural aspects those little differences seem like big differences until you come in contact with groups who are so different culturally that they are truly foreign in religion, speech and every other way that makes groups similar. But absent those groups who are so culturally different you have to differentiate between the immediate groups you are in contact with who are otherwise very similar. So the Doric speaking people probably were just slightly different Greeks than the Achean types who existed in the southern part of Greece at a time when they couldn’t stop other groups from migrating into lands they previously dominated. Who really knows why they lost the ability to stop others from migrating into the southern part of Greece, or if they even tried. At the time the migration happened that period of Mycenaean Greece with the palace complexes and centralization had ended. No one knows exactly why that occurred but we know it did occur and there was depopulation and other migrated to that depopulated area and settled in places people had previously settled. Thats how you have a Sparta that is a completely different city state from one era to another. There are only so many good places to inhabit in that part of the world. Peoples move around for all sorts of reasons. Who knows. But people migrate and settle and get into conflict with their neighbors, which is about as natural as it gets. When people show up to steal your cows or sheep and they sound a little different and they worship the gods a little different it’s easy to assume you’ve been invaded by a foreign group, which also may be where the concept came from.
I would expect that the Dorians migrated much as the sea peoples and about at the same time - perhaps even putting the latter to a flight which came upon the eastern Mediterranean,
Finally someone comes with some kind of real history..of course Dorian invasion happened,they were simito Egyptian, the land/ population they invaded were the Pelasgians .They found very advanced civilization that the so called modern Greeks claim to be theirs..
1. Doris was a much smaller district than what you very arbitrarily drew. 2. The Dorian invasion c. 1130 BCE was a dynastic conflict and did not cause the full collapse of the Mycenaean cities (those were destroyed only later c. 1070 BCE, coincident with the Berber invasion of Egypt), only their partial decline. The Norman invasion of England was also a dynastic conflict which radically changed English; elite domination is very effective in causing languages and ideology to shift towards that of the ruling elites.
Hi Luis. The region of Doris is shown as a small area on the map, next to Lokris. The reddish/brown territory of the Dorians is not Doris, but the supposed rough area of the Dorian influence between the time of Aegimius and the 4th generation of the Heracleidae, spanning from Doris, their possible previous area to the north, and parts of Thessaly. You can see the exact location of Doris at 5:39.
@@LuisAldamiz The map portrays the legend of the successors of Heracles and king Aegimius. They supposedly spanned from Doris to parts of Thessaly (realm of king Aegimius) in Greek mythology. If you are asking where the Dorians were factually located in history during that time period, it's hard to tell. The Northwestern Doric dialect would be the "original" speech of the mountainous Dorians who didn't mix with the Peloponnesian population. So, my assumption would be that Doris, and before that possibly parts of Epirus, would be the areas where the Dorians originated from. Whether or not they already existed throughout Peloponnese in some capacity during the Mycenaean times, it remains an open question.
@@cosmomusa Yes, that's what I was referring to. That's the reason for the map of Dorian areas following the legend and not sticking strictly to tiny Doris region.
Yes it happened, but the Dorians did not claim to be from northern Greece, they didn't invade from northern Greece, they invaded southern Greece from the sea, originating in a city in Palistinian called Dor! Where Hellenistic culture and architecture have been discovered
A problem is that radiocarbon dates for that period are complicated (the calibration curve becomes almost flat, making difficult to be precise). However I strongly lean for the Dorians causing the initial "palaces abandonment" c. 1130 BCE, while the full collapse (destruction of most cities) belongs to a later date, c. 1070 BCE, when there must have been a major foreign invasion, which I believe is reflected in Plato's story of Atlantis, in which a Western force threatened the Eastern Mediterranean but was defeated by Athens eventually, being Athens the only Mycenaean era city that survived the onslaught. This date is very convenient because it's also that of the Berber (Meswesh) conquest of Lower Egypt, ending the New Kingdom.
@@thomasdaywalt7735 - We would have to dive on lots of papers written for over a century. Think that most of the Bronze Age archaeology for Greece was done around 1900, long before radiocarbon; thus the basic chronology (Helladic, Minoan in Crete) was based on stratigraphy and pottery types. Later therer's been studies with C14 and such but what I've seen (not exhaustive, rather fragmentary, look better on your own if you want the best possible answer) seems rather for specific sites or compilation of such sites, many of which are not the most important cities (maybe just isolated tombs excavated later or whatever, stuff like the periphery of ancient Athens, etc.) But the big problem is that the C14 calibration curve is almost flat for the Late Bronze. You probably know that for each raw C14 date (BP), in order to give a realistic date, you have to compare with the best available calibration curve in order to produce the calBP roughly "real" date. For most periods the curve is not quite but near 45º, almost 1:1 correspondence and little ambiguity, but in this particular period it becomes horribly flat (a bit bumpy actually but almost flat). That's a very annoying inconvenience. So what I did back in the day (always in limited amateur scope) was to compare potteries, especially with Egypt, where Greek ware was arriving and where the chronology is more solidly established. This suggests me that the first palatial decline (which I associate to the Dorian invasion, an intestine Greek dynastic quarrel) happened c. 1130 BCE but that the generalized destruction that spared only a few cities like Athens happened c. 1070 BCE, coincident with the conquest of Lower Egypt by the Berbers (Meswesh), thus I tentatively associate that with the Platonic narration of Atlantis (Western peoples invading the Eastern Mediterranean but defeated "by Athens" specifically). These Western peoples we know some from the narratives of the Sea Peoples (between 1280 and 1175 BCE): the Sherden (Nuraghic Sardinians), the Libu and/or Meswesh (Berbers = Amazigh) and probably also the Weshesh (Ausones, Latin plural of Auso, which are archaeologically documented to have pirated Greece), others, including the Atlanteans proper were probably from Iberia, where some civilizations did exist, and one fits quite well with the description. So, yes, if you ask me, I do think that there was an Atlantean invasion fitting quite well but not completely what Plato tells: Atlantic civilization (only one in those days, around modern Lisbon, very influential and old) capital atop a hill in the center of the rectangular peninsula (rather than island), connected to the Ocean by a canal ("marine branch" in archaeologist slang) of the almost exact measure, with ten royal tombs (hypogees) scattered through the realm, with "ritual bull hunting" since time immemorial to present day, with good access to the best mineral deposits available then, with major imports of ivory (but not native elephants), destroyed by likely tsunami (canal silted at the collapse of the civilization, around 1100 BCE, probably a bit later), etc. The main discrepancy is the date (9000 years before Plato there were no civilizations, this one began c. 3000-2800 BCE, there were no Greeks, no Egypt and no Athens) and I've also been unable to find any trace of the famous rings. The date for this invasion, which must have been a massive endeavor, and was to some extent successful (destruction of most of Greece, Berber conquest of Lower Egypt), should have beem c. 1070 BCE, a century after the fall of Troy and the Hittites.
I have a total other belief . I Think that the dorians were present in mycenean world . They were myceneans themself . I think some of rulers of palaces centers were dorians …
dorians with the heracleidae was allies in this campaing and the first invasion was end with the duel of hyllos and leader of argos. hyllos lose so the heracleidae turn back
Nope. Doris was part of "Mycenean" (Bronze Age) Greece but at its northern border with Thessaly (Pelasgoi). It was there where the Heraklids established a tiny provisional kingdom in the century between their exile and their legendary return. The Brygei-Macedonians (producing Phrygians-Muskhi-Armenians) almost certainly stem from a different migration from the area of Serbia, distantly related to the Greeks (Vucedol culture) but arrived to Greece a century later and by a different route. I've become persuaded that the early Greeks conquered Greece not by land but from the sea and that the place where they learned to sail was coastal Montenegro: Mala Gruda facies of Vucedol culture, with pretty much the same kind of tumular architecture as the earliest Greeks, which were always located in the south of Greece and not in the North (excepted two coastal sites). The Dorians were Greeks but regionally different, after many centuries, almost 1000 years, of regional divergence, and thus spoke a distinct dialect, which they imposed by elite domination, much like the Normans imposed the word "pork" to cooked pig (along with 50% of the vocabulary, which is French-based) in English.
@@wankawanka3053 Παντως η αρχαια Δορικη τετραπολις ειναι εδω που μενω Γραβια , Καστελια , Αποστολια ,ΛΙλεα , στους προποδες του Παρνασσου και οπου ακους Παρνασσος , Ιλισσος , Οδυσσος , Ορχομενος κτλ ειναι ΜΙνυες Γρεκοι Πελασγοι δλδ ντοπιοι δουλευταραδες χα χα ! . Αν πας ποτε στην Γραβια δες πανω στο βουνο θα δεις μια Ελληνικη σημαια ,ειναι καρφωμενη επανω σε Πελασγικα τοιχοι , αν το λενε τα ποδια σου ανεβα να ανατριχιασεις ( και προσεχε μην σκοτωθεις ) και δες που εχτισαν οι ανθρωποι για να προστατευτουν και για να κανουν πλιατσικο σε οσους προσπαθουσαν να περασουν το περασμα προς την Αμφισσα το γνωστο 51 !! Και το ονομα τους το πηραν νομιζω απο εναν Βασιλια η γενναρχη τους τον ΔΟΡΟ ,
To accept one theory is only a foolish decision. Mycenaen Greece was a vast territory in southern greece, in one part (e.g) region of Athens the Dorians could have invaded meanwhile in place's such as Sparta they could have migrated. The fall of Mycenaen Greece could have had multiple factors playing in just as for Rome, e.g invasions, mass migration, political collapse due to revolutions, multiple attacks and plagues etc.
Aigimios, Dymas, Hyllos etc. all are Albanian names even today. No Greeks back then. Even the Serpent symbol was Illyrian. Dorians came from Illyrian lands and conquered the Southern tribes.
Then you might undetstand and explain to us certain documents as chorus in greek tragedies that primarily and basically it was in Dorian would you like me to choose one
@@chrisg.k487 actually it is search researched and proven to the ignorance the vowels is the easy way to compare and understand the resemblance amongst others otherwise a university course is needed
@@southepirote7676 i told you the truth you are not indigenous you are not illyrians there is no proof no one takes you serious about your stupid claims and i dont understand the hate on Greeks these people helped you after the fall of communism and still many albanians are working in Greece
Nobody is talking about Doret or whatever that means in your language. Unfortunately the Albanians are among the least educated when it comes to history and most prone to bizarre conspiracy theories.
Enough is enough with that obsolete hypothesis wich has been rejected before 140 years. Helena Kosaqi set a fraud to sell books in uneducated Albanians.
discord.gg/gEm2szQr - First 30 people to join our Discord will become Gerontes - members of the Gerousia. 🏛️⚔️
Sick video, this is definitely a topic people don't talk about enough. I always think about the whole Dorian thing as a material culture thing rather than a migration or invasion. Bias of an Archaeologist though. The real honey pot is just what exactly happened across Greece and the Balkans during the local dark ages. Videos on Illyria and Epirus would be cool as well 👍
No one has a video covering the sasi movement or Sasi conspiracies
They are trying to change history daily. Been like that forever. So, NO.
@@WanaxTV WHAT ARE YOU SERVING IS A HUGE BULLSHIT
THAT'S WHY YOU WHIPPED OFF
MY OPINION.
WHAT YOU SELLING HAS BEEN SOLD OUT BEFORE.
THE TRUTH IS COMING OUT YOU WANT IT OR NOT....
Discord link doesn’t work
I'm always reminded of a quote David Reich (the geneticist) uses in his Book: Who We Are And How We Got Here (p. 126):
"But the lack of archaeological evidence does not mean that there were no major incursions from the outside. Between 1600-1500 years ago, the western Roman Empire collapsed under the pressure of the Germanic expansions, with great economic blows dealt to the western Roman Empire when the Visigoths and Vandals each sacked Rome and took political control of Roman provinces.
However, there so far seems to be little archaeological evidence for destruction of Roman cities in this time, and if not for the detailed historical accounts, we might not know these pivotal events occurred." [Bryan Ward-Perkins: The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization.]
No, we have plenty of archeological evidence of foreign presence during that time. Foreign burials and residential finding including.
@@YorshZed Fnding foreign burial forms isnt at all uncommon in a multiethnic empire like rome - in late imperial times the army was made up from 3/4 auxilia and foederati.
Many of which earned citizens rights after 20 years of service, and not too few where drawn to the imperial centers if they had the resources. Rome had greek and egyption, celtic and nubian immigrants who brougt their gods, their foods, their burial customs.
What Ward-Perkins and thus the op point to is that we dont see widespread destruction horizons in the archeology like the bronze-age collapse, Mongol invasion or the incan andean blitzkrieg left behind.
Because the germanic invaders took over instead of burning the landscape, and left much of the roman managerial elite in place. A Vandal nobleman didnt know how to upkeep aqueducts or organize transmediterranean resource trade.
@@FischerNilsA Well, Greece wasn't multiethnic during that period of time.
Rome collapsed from internal strife not Germanic invasions. If the legions didn’t keep getting destroyed without replenishment from civil wars then they would’ve been able to hold Africa and retain their main tax revenue province
According to Homer in Odyssey, the Dorians are already present among the poplulations of Mycenaean Crete. So for Homer, the Dorians are present in the Mycenaean period in the Hellenic peninsula. So it's possible that the Dorians are the inhabitants of the mountainοus terrains of Greece, who moved in the plains, with the decline of the Mycenean palace centers, and assumed control gradually. For this reason the Dorian is a more archaic dialect, in comparison with the Ionian.
True. The Dorians apparently already present in Crete together with the Achaeans, Pelasgians, Eteocretans and Kydones.
This seems right to me
Most of this nonsense was dreamt up by Kosmas Medici who decided that Lydian Oligarchy needs "heroic" origins. "Hellenic" is a pseudo-identity like "British" or "Soviet". The Lydians who started colonising South Thrace through Athens, were considered foreigners in Sparta and lived in the Merchant Periohi (the prototype for the "Jewish Ghetto"). Although the modern Lydian Oligarchs enjoy masquerading under their fictional "Jewish" identity, their most valued fiction is the "Greek" identity.
@@julianpetkov8320 Cry more bulshido master of histiry
@@giorgosstamatopoulos8115 Who is crying re Stamati? 😀 Learn who the real Greeks are, where they came from, where they went and how they are ruling you from overseas.
I heard somewhere that there were a serf class in the ancient Mycenaean society called "Doroi" (or something like that).
If we assume the Bronze age collapse was ignited by climate changes and the ruling class being unable to provide for the population, we could also devise some of the classes lying below the Achaean, to rebel again their rulers and establishing themselves as the dominant class in the society.
The tale of descending form Hercles was often used in Grece to provide a veil of nobility.
There were recorded palatial and religious servants with name "Dōrieus", presumably named so after their place of origin, which would mean that they came from Doris, but not that there was any social class called "Doroi" that meant that Dorians were slaves.
Ancient Greek word for slave is "doulos". In Mycenaean Greek, that was "do-e-ro" (with "r" being modern insertion for categorization purposes, for a sign that was actually used by Mycenaeans for both "R" and "L" sounds) - so it was actually spelled "do-e-lo" by the Mycenaeans and pronounced close to "doelos" (since "s" was present in pronunciation but not written).
Similar how "Pylos" in modern Linear B reconstruction system is written as "Pu-ro" while the Mycenaeans would actually spell it "Pu-lo" or "Py-lo", and would pronounce it "Pylos".
@@WanaxTVFascinating! I'd love to see a full episode about the language.
This is gonna be good... such an interesting topic!
Let’s see what the people think. ☑️
@@WanaxTV I'm sure they'll love it... I did!
I have the sense that the Dorians were an ethnic group that existed in the Greek world during Mycenaean times, that overthrew the ruling Mycenaeans with the aid of a small group of, ethnically related, warrior elites: the Heracleidae. I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong) that Achilles, (Who's physical description in the Iliad sounds Dorian to me), has a tenuous relationship to Heracles.
Doris was a small district between Thessaly and Boeotia, close to Phtiotis (coastal south Thessaly) and surely sharing the same dialect (early Western Greek or proto-Dorian, in those days "Northern Greek" would be a much better label anyhow, in contrast with the two Central Greek dialects: Aeolian in Boeotia and Ionian in Attica, and also with Mycenaean proper or Arcado-Cypriot, spoken in the Peloponese, then called Achaea, primarily). Doris is where, per the legend, the Heraclids found refuge after leaving Athens (which hosted them first, suggesting rivalry with Mycenae). A whole century went through before they could reclaim what they considered theirs. However they did not really destroy the cities (even if these show decline and "palace abandonment"), that destruction happened later and was probably a foreign invasion, only Athens survived unscathed.
What physical description of Achilles makes him sound Dorian to you? I'm curious.
I'm assuming OP is referring to Akhilleus' hair which is described as "xanthos" in the Iliad. Xanthos can be translated as fair, shining, light, or blonde. Dorian's were said to be northern Greeks, so some could assume they were fairer haired@@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319
I think OP is referring to Achilles' hair, which is called "xanthos" in the Iliad which can be translated as fair, gold, shining, or blonde. The Dorians are held to be northern Greeks, and so are easily envisioned as fairer in hair and skin than other Greeks@@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319
@@dixonj41 In the Iliad though, the Achaeans are all described as "fair-haired". So I thought it was more of an Achaean rather than Dorian perception. But thank you for your answer. I think I learned something new.
I think many Victorian classicists and archaeologists overplayed the whole Dorian thing because, if only subconsciously, they liked the idea of invaders coming from more northerly climes in Europe and creating the wonders of classical Greece. Many were British, Germans etc. There was a vanity element to the theory.
That's absolutely true, what doesn't mean that there was no Dorian invasion, just that it was a dynastic war between Greeks and not any such (totally unproven) migration from further North.
Dorians came to the Peloponnese from Macedonia, not from Norway....
Brits, Germans and French like to do that a lot. Their revisionism can even be seen in passive aggressive ways in films and television.
Reguardless the greek speakers came from north. Its what ancient greeks said that north greeks were dorians.
@@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319Facts
The Dorian invasions or better, the return of Heracleidai are much more about various coup d' etats.
4:16 missed opportunity to say House Atreides...
Pausanias gives some more details about the alleged invasion. The Heraclides couldn't break through the isthmus at Corinth but they allied with an Aetolian, Oxylus, who led them across the narrow sea to Achaea (which wasn't called that yet, it supposedly got its name from all the Achaean refugees who went there and took over from the local Ionians afterwards). They then went through Arcadia (securing an alliance with the local ruler) and hit the Achaeans from behind. Oxylus himself led his Aetolians to Elis, where he succeeded in becoming king, but with equal rights for the local Epeians. This explained why the Elians spoke a dialect closer to that of the Aetolians than to any other Peloponnesians.
My guess is that such an invasion really did happen, but didn't involve complete population replacements. It may have been a result of previous instability and collapse rather than the cause of it, but whatever the case no part of Greece remained unaffected. Euboea had the least disruption and led Greece afterwards in culture and commerce, until the Lelantine War sapped the strength of its two major cities.
I find it unlikely that Dorian was a Peloponnesian sociolect given that it apparently bore closer relation to Northwestern Greek than to neighbouring Achaean. Class and environment are huge influences on language but geographically related upper and lower class sociolects will be more closely related than any two geographically distant dialects. Also, the fact that Dorian dialects were scattered throughout Greece non-contigously points to migrants passing through some areas to settle in more desirable ones.
Which is not true, in fact Dorian Greek had more in common with Arcadian rather than West-North Greek. Even the Attic dialect was more similar to NW Greek, than Dorian.
great video thanks!!!!!!!
Appreciate it, Lucius!
I see no reason to doubt the basic narrative about the "Heraclidae" ending the line of Atreus through battle (however large or small an affair such a conflict was), establishing new dynasties across the Peloponnese with the power and prestige this garnered them, and then inviting some of their friends from up north. But none of this really seems to amount to a migration-type invasion, bringing everything all at once. Their expeditionary invasion was successful and over time more of them would have come, born out in the distinction with the periokoi in archaic and classical times. Perhaps we need to distinguish between different types of invasion, since some may fit better than others.
This seems to be taking place right in the middle of the invasion of the sea peoples? So how does that came in to play?
There are several periods of discontinuity in the archaeological record and of foreign presence at the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age. Difficult to know which one corresponds to the Dorian invasion, but there is no real reason to reject the historicity of such an invasion just because we can't decide which archaeological changes it may correspond to.
There are no periods of discontinuity in the archeological record and of foreign presence.
@@YorshZed I meant, there are several periods of discontinuity for those who have studied archaeological sites, the succession of layers in tells, prehistorians, not for those who have just a vague idea of what they are talking about.
@@petrapetrakoliou8979 For archeologists there are no discontinuity between Iron Age Greeks and Mycenaeans. All Ancient Greek cultures are descendants of the Mycenaean culture.
@@YorshZed Things are a little more complicated than that. There is no discontinuity in some domains like the arts and certain know-how, rather a drop in quality, but elsewhere there are huge rapid changes in the material culture succeeding to destructive phases and all kinds of intrusions of foreign cultures into the local, mostly Balkanic and Danubian cultures as it seems as well as local displacements, but not simultaneously. So "no discontinuity" is a way of putting it, but perhaps that's stretching it a little too much and "great discontinuities in several domains, and some continuity in others" would better describe the situation.
@@petrapetrakoliou8979 drop in quality is not discontinuity. And drop in quality is not evidence of invasion. Changes are not huge by the way. Ancient Greek pottery of 8th century bc is almost a copy of the Mycenaean pottery.
Destructions were caused by different reasons, some of them include earthquakes, piracy, social unrest and material-economic changes. Invasion is not needed for that.
What local intrusions? Can you give us an example?
Super cool, thanks for sharing with us FANAX
Thank you! I like the F!
A population of Doric speaking Greeks invading the Peloponnes is extremely plausible. The Greek dark arges are extremely murky, but mythological historical accounts often contain hints of truth. I think it's perfectly plausible the Dorians took the remains of palatial centers and towns after the sea peoples and overtook the Achaeans as the ruling elite in the regions they took.
It was pretty much like the Norman conquest of England where we weren’t replaced by Norman’s we just had a large part of our aristocracy part Norman
The two eras got a tine gap between them 3000 years abd more tgan 3000 miles distance. Are you serious - sirius or syrian?
Great thanks!
The DNA evidence indicates Dorians and Mycenaeans were the same people or were very closely related. So at best they were a different class of culture of Greeks. So it seems that the Dorian Invasion was just one group of Greeks overthrowing another.
Source?
@@TrontotarioIt's explainable by the lack of DNA evidence supporting an influx of foreigners. Modern Greeks are closely related to the Mycenaeans. An invading horde that was able to overthrow the Mycenaeans should be reflected in the DNA of modern Greeks.
@@Trontotario Check DNA of the Ancient Dorian colonies in Google. Also there are few samples from Iron Age Greece without higher steppe admixture. They all look like Mycenaeans basically, but with some small Anatolian dilution (around 10%). Which means there was no Dorian invasion probably, otherwise it would influence Ancient Greek population.
@ man why don’t you give ma an actual source instead of saying “go to google”
@@Trontotario Because nobody can give you a source, RUclips erases comments with links.
Yes king i've been waiting for this
Appreciate it!
As a result of the continuous crop failures, many Achaeans either surrendered or joined forces with the Sea People. This led to a decline in trade and uprisings among some governing classes. In some regions, the tiny group of Heraclidae became the dominant class, with the support of the native Dorians in others.
Are you sure it were the crops? 😎
@@WanaxTV So what do you think it were?
@@FutureMythology To be honest I’m not sure. I find it difficult to see climate change and crops resulting in uprisings that led to chain of destruction across Peloponnese, central Greece, Crete, Miletus, etc. I think that the logistics of it are not very possible.
Mycenaeans are recorded sponsoring anti-Hittite uprisings in late 13th century BC. In early 12th century, all of their major cities are sacked and destroyed. Pylos evidently by a sea attack. I think that such destruction could’ve only been caused by an overwhelming military force.
Note that Mycenae and Tiryns had minor revivals following destruction, and that Tiryns remained a Mycenaean stronghold into 11th century BC. As for what happened in that period (1170-1070 BC) I’m really not sure. I’m not ruling out struggles between classes or tribes, but on a much, much smaller scale than Mycenaean civilization collapse.
@@WanaxTV thanks for your information
@@WanaxTV Currently, there is not a comprehensive publication of the evidence that has been interpreted by archaeologists as destruction of the Mycenean palace centres from north to south, let alone the evidence for the precise dating. And as you say some destructions seem to be temporary, as life seems to go on. Depending on the precise date of destruction in each site, different reasons may apply and ancient writers give us quite a few. For example, Orchomenus could have been destroyed by Thebans (see legend of Creon’s command to Hercules), Thebes could have been destroyed by Argolid forces (see legend of Epigoni). Destructions in Mycenae could have been caused by the first attack of Heraclidae and Dorians (as Hyllus passed the Isthmus and stayed in Peloponnese for a year before retreating to Thessaly). Interestingly there are no legends on the destruction of Iolcos and Pylos, while legend is fully accurate that Athens was never destroyed. As a naval attack is suggested for Pylos, only the wanax of Mycenae could have the ships to do that (but why?) or Sherden (Sardinian) pirates known to be a band of the Sea peoples. Rameses III also boasts in an Egyptian monument from the 12th century, that he slew Denyen (Danaans) in their isles after the battle with the Sea Peoples at the Delta, but scholars believe it is far fetched that an Egyptian fleet actually attacked Aegean cities.
There's enough proofs to support the theory of invasion. The problem is in what we consider by invasion in this case.
The only thing we know for sure is that Dorians came from the north of Peloponnesian. Probably from Acarnia or Thessaly or both. They were not seafarers.
It’s like the settlement of New England by the English in the 17th century. The land was sparsely populated after a smallpox or other European disease outbreak. There was some cohabitation but it eventually evolved into warfare.
Most of the Americas were sparsely populated. There wasn't technology to support a large population to include domesticated animals. Indigenous populations didn't have fixed settlements north of central America. Disease idea was proposed at a desperate attempt to explain smaller population.
Could it be similar to the conquest of England by William the Conqueror's knights of Normandy? It seems that in that case (also?) only the upper classes settled in the British Isles? Correct me if I am wrong.
Love the art and kylix style figures!
I believe the Dorians were related, and were on on the periphery.
The Dorians seem to have done away with tailors. Suddenly, the Greeks appear to be wearing bed sheets that keep falling off whereas, in the Myceanean period, the standard was closely fitted clothing.
Where are your sources?
All indians in north america even of a certain area wore the same? Clothing is a piece not just of culture but environment climate religion combat results and about 100 different things . Yet should one attempts to look into it has to give me mind that is taking the risk to put today's criteria in his research the first thing that you learn in the history university course to avoid. Which means study for once
The case that you westerners do not understand is that Greek History is much older than you think.
Ancient greek tradition reports 3 Cataclysms...
But Western history only one...
This is a fine example...
Glory to the Dorians!
Short answer: Yes
They came from the mountainous regions of macedon and aepiros and moved southward
What do you mean Dorian in Greek ?
It is impossible to explain how all Greeks in all edges of the world would be convinced to adopt an invented story at the same time, let alone how the enemies of the Dorians (Athenians - Ionians) would not contest a potential lie.
The Dorian invasion to be contested specific proof should be presented to discredit the key points of the narrative:
- the Dorians were nomadic moving on the periphery of the Mycenean kingdoms from the mountains of Thessaly and Pindus to Phocis - their last foothold being called Doris, a toponym passed on to next generations. Dorians also means forest people, which is consistent with where they leaved initially.
- Doric belongs to the northwestern Greek dialects, as Macedonian and Epirotic, which is consistent with the above dwelling. The Mycenean Linear B dialect is rather connected with Iron Age Aeolic and more strongly with Iron Age Arcadian and Cypriot compared to Doric, which must have happened only if the interaction of the two dialects was not close.
- the Dorians were too weak to beat the Mycenean kingdoms on their heyday and perhaps not motivated. They were joined by Acheans and Aetolians who knew the routes. And it was not an instant try to reach Peloponese.
- their attack was successful only after the Mycenean kingdoms had been severely weakened by civil wars for throne successions, external war in Anatolia (Trojan war) and trade collapse in eastern Mediterrenean due to the rise of sea raids / piracy and the fall of Cyprus, Ugarit and the Hittites. The palace economy and bureaucracy must have crumbled, potentially causing social unrest. Achaean nobles are reported to start leaving Greek mainland to migrate elsewhere before the final Dorian invasion, which could be a sign of lack of role in a diminished palace system, lack of resources to run the economy and search for new lands and markets.
- There was only one battle fought, and that in open field, that determined the fate of Peloponese, which is difficult to have left any arcaeological traits. The last king of Mycenae was killed and no family is reported. The rest Achaeans are reported to either surrender or negotiate safe passage after that. Dorians are not reported to besiege and destroy cities or to be interested in marrying Achaean princesses and reviving Mycenean traditions, beaurocracy and palace economy (whatever was left by then).
- Dorians made Argos as their capital in Argolis, while Mycenae practically was abandoned and became a village among legendary ruins. In Laconia, they established a number of villages that would later become Sparta. Again the Mycenean-era “Sparta”, whether Amuclae or Menelaeon, is not used. In Messenia, the Achaean nobles (Neleids) fled Pylos to Attica where they were reported until classical times. Dorians founded Stenyclaros as their new capital. There is a pattern there, where Dorians do not use the strongly fortified Mycenean cities and they do not continue the Mycenean administration and writing system. This is not consistent with a scenario of social uprising of Dorian serfs coordinating themselves and taking over three Achaean kingdoms from inside all at once, especially based on an assumed common ideology that they are all Dorian-speaking. If they lived in the workshops of fortified Pylos, why leave and establish practically a village in Stenyclaros?
@alps they put their enemy lang in their theatrical plays! That 's a tesla invention! By studying a book and trying to blend history in order to to reach a conclusion that you that you are keen on ir makes you comfortable that's cooking not history
@@nezperce2767For those who might not get it: the Dorian invasion is a well documented event in ancient literature, believed to be a historical fact by ancient historians and the public. While we have a lot of evidence / arguments that support the ancient narrative (see above), there is no evidence /argument that discredits it or proves something else.
“I believe it is a myth”, “My alternative theory is that…”, if not supported by convincing evidence, are only working theories. This is how science works with any theory: step 1. discredit established theory; step 2. establish alternative theory.
There is nothing wrong with public misconception; it happens. Troy, Mycenae and Knossos were considered legendary before being unearthed.
Yes.
What if it's similar to the story of dune, and some exiles from somewhere else ended up in greece and took advantage of the culture and were like "yes, it is us, the sons of heracles returned!" and leveraged that for some socio-political advantages and lived as kings until they died and greece was left with a hard to explain cultural shift and a bunch of people claiming to be descended from them.
Not a coincidence, but quite deliberate on the part of Frank Herbert. House Atreides is named after Atreus, the Mycenean king who exiled the sons of Heracles.
It's a really mysterious and fascinating moment in history, I personally think the answer lies within genetics, the more we can piece the puzzle together we will start to able to see parts of the picture. I do believe in the Dorian Invasion but I think we don't know the whole story yet.. There could be some major surprises to be discovered and I hope this subject gets researched more to unearth them. Maybe something in the mythology is hiding something...
We already have DNA from the Dorian colonies and Iron Age Greece, no genetic traces of the Dorian invasion.
Many Achaeans either fell to or joined with the Sea People when there were repeated crop failures. This collapsed trade and some ruling elites had revolts. The small group of Heraclidae took over as the ruling class in some areas who were supported in some areas by native Dorians.
I guess we’ll just have to wait until someone finds more evidence proving one hypothesis or the other
I think these legends of certain dialect-speaking groups, lime the Dorians, probably preserve a kernel of truth about migrations and settlements, after all, they date back to at least Herodotus. I don’t know about a “conquest”, but perhaps there were a few important, possibly related, chiefs who dominated these groups. Except for the divine origins of certain families or peoples, of course, but many ancient cultures have such myths, often of fairly recent adoption when recorded. I am a Dorian Greek, my family is from the Southern Peloponnesos. Herodotus has been repeatedly proven right through archaeology, so why not about this? For example, he said the Phrygians inhaled smoke from cannabis seeds burnt on brass tripods. This formerly “unbelievable story” was recently proved correct when such tripods with burnt cannabis seeds were discovered among Phrygian archaeological sites!
I always see the Dorians as Northern Greeks. That is their habitat. The Dorians who migrated South would have mixed with the Mycenaeans.
There is a theory that there was no invasion, but instead the lower class destroyed the palaces after they rebelled and then formed the Dorians as a new group.
(Linear B: 𐀈𐀁𐀫, do-e-ro, "male slave"; latter Greek form: δοῦλος).
Good note. But the theory is flawed and based on misconceptions on modern pragmatic labels for Linear B signs.
𐀫 in Mycenaean Greek is pronounced both as "ro" and "lo" depending on the case. "r" instead of "l" is simply chosen by modern linguists so that they can more easily differentiate between the signs.
𐀈𐀁𐀫 is more correctly spelled as "do-e-lo" and pronounced "doelos" (thus very similar to "doulos").
@@WanaxTVDorian means the one who carries spear. ( O feron dory= ο φέρων δόρυ)In front of you is revealed the beginning of the greek phalanx. Also Dorians was that greek people who followed the campaign of Hercules to the north. We talk about a return not an invasion at a collapsed bronze world kingdom. The deference is the way they fighting and they are bringers of iron weapons usage. Before them only myrmidons fought with the formation of phalanx.
similar to the difference between hebrew and caananite, I believe the dorians were probably expellees from the cities who, over time, grew in number in the hills until they were able to reconquer the cities.
cataclysms ( 1ogygis 2 Deucalion 3 Dardan) as Dorians of their moves
I guess,a local fruit in my home country named Durian,come from word Dorian.Those people in about late 13th.century AD in Southeast Asia,the one with Achaeans Tongue-like sword,my personal belongings by hereditary,found fruit Inland,named it,remembering the most advanced weapon at ancient days of their ancestors in Greek,a metal ball with spikes.The letter 'O' become 'U' as times passed by.
IT seems to me ,that Dorioi meinst simple,the Spears.meaning a warriorband unter its leader.this Kind of Bands May habe Gashtered after the decline of the Achijavan Highkingdom and Concorde their Sitzes of Power,than scattering on their own along the southern Islands, aß ist seen espescially in Crete were the tribal Organisation was Not followed and more.
The times of the Myceneans are indeed very confusing since there were no historians to keep a record ( or if they were is not saved). So our only option for a histocal record is the verbal myths of the past. Heracles and Eurystheus probably represent the two mightiest tribes of the time : the Achaeans and Dorians who were related to each other( both Greek) but different social status, living together .At some point the two classes collide and a big part of the Dorians, beeing the weakest, had to
flee Pelopponese and move north, away from the Achaean dominance. After their collapse due to different reasons, the Dorians (Heraclides) were given a chance to go back to the "good" country, warmer and more suitable for farming. There might not have been a big scale wars but possible some of the cities must have fought the newcomers. So overall as you said the truth is somewhere in between.
Yes it happened I was there
After reading all the comments - and answering to everybody - There is not much "mystery" about the Dorian "Invasion". First of all, the term is historically wrong, because it is described as "η κάθοδος των Δωριέων" - Dorian descent. Second, the Dorians were a distinct Hellenic tribe with their own dialect and customs, a dialect that is practically identical with Macedonian, to the point that in the times of Alexander were still very minor differences between them, so any marxist - like interpretations that they were a particular class are wrong. Third, we know very well their starting point, that is from the region of Pieria, in proximity with the mount Olympus. Fourth, we know details about this, the persons, the point that they crossed in the Corinthian Gulf etc. I hope that this helped.
Providing some ancient greek sources would really help your assessment.
@@manos6969 please ask me something particular that you want to know more about
@@manos6969πες μου συγκεκριμένα τι θέλεις πολλά μπορείς να τα βρεις και από το διαδίκτυο
@@manos6969for example myth says that my hometown Naupaktos was created by Dorians in the location that they build ships to cross the sea
The word comes from Ναυ+πηγνυμι(Ship building)
@@manos6969σου απάντησα φίλε μου αλλά δεν ξέρω πως η απάντηση μου δεν εμφανίζεται
The Biblical reccord 1Kings6 says the Hebrews left Egypt abt 1440 BC, and destroyed all but the coastal Cannanite cities abt 1400 BC. Some records seem to say Egypt lost control of Cannan about this time. i found your Crete video abt min 6 saying the Caanites left Crete around 1200BC for Cannan?
Anyway, seems to be a conflict here? Thanks, Lewis
Great migration period but in bronze age
The Dorian invasion theory seems like one of those mythical beliefs a group uses to justify their dominance in a region they migrated to in the not so distant past. Clearly Doric speaking people were different from people who spoke other dialects of Greek at least linguistically but probably culturally in some small ways. When you are so similar in other cultural aspects those little differences seem like big differences until you come in contact with groups who are so different culturally that they are truly foreign in religion, speech and every other way that makes groups similar. But absent those groups who are so culturally different you have to differentiate between the immediate groups you are in contact with who are otherwise very similar.
So the Doric speaking people probably were just slightly different Greeks than the Achean types who existed in the southern part of Greece at a time when they couldn’t stop other groups from migrating into lands they previously dominated. Who really knows why they lost the ability to stop others from migrating into the southern part of Greece, or if they even tried. At the time the migration happened that period of Mycenaean
Greece with the palace complexes and centralization had ended. No one knows exactly why that occurred but we know it did occur and there was depopulation and other migrated to that depopulated area and settled in places people had previously settled. Thats how you have a Sparta that is a completely different city state from one era to another. There are only so many good places to inhabit in that part of the world. Peoples move around for all sorts of reasons. Who knows. But people migrate and settle and get into conflict with their neighbors, which is about as natural as it gets. When people show up to steal your cows or sheep and they sound a little different and they worship the gods a little different it’s easy to assume you’ve been invaded by a foreign group, which also may be where the concept came from.
I would expect that the Dorians migrated much as the sea peoples and about at the same time - perhaps even putting the latter to a flight which came upon the eastern Mediterranean,
Do you think Heracles who reputedly had great grandchildren, could have been an actual person?
With genetics it is probably difficult because the conquering army often marry women from the conquered areas resulting in mixing of DNA.
Finally someone comes with some kind of real history..of course Dorian invasion happened,they were simito Egyptian, the land/ population they invaded were the Pelasgians .They found very advanced civilization that the so called modern Greeks claim to be theirs..
That's afrocentric nonsense. There is no evidence to support such a claim.
The Mycenaean Spartans were of the ionian tribe and dialect but were overthrown by the dorians AND WERE DORIANISED IN FULL
1. Doris was a much smaller district than what you very arbitrarily drew.
2. The Dorian invasion c. 1130 BCE was a dynastic conflict and did not cause the full collapse of the Mycenaean cities (those were destroyed only later c. 1070 BCE, coincident with the Berber invasion of Egypt), only their partial decline. The Norman invasion of England was also a dynastic conflict which radically changed English; elite domination is very effective in causing languages and ideology to shift towards that of the ruling elites.
Hi Luis. The region of Doris is shown as a small area on the map, next to Lokris.
The reddish/brown territory of the Dorians is not Doris, but the supposed rough area of the Dorian influence between the time of Aegimius and the 4th generation of the Heracleidae, spanning from Doris, their possible previous area to the north, and parts of Thessaly.
You can see the exact location of Doris at 5:39.
@@WanaxTV - Do you really think they expanded to the harsh mountains between Thessaly and Epirus? Call me very skeptic, really.
@@LuisAldamiz The map portrays the legend of the successors of Heracles and king Aegimius. They supposedly spanned from Doris to parts of Thessaly (realm of king Aegimius) in Greek mythology. If you are asking where the Dorians were factually located in history during that time period, it's hard to tell. The Northwestern Doric dialect would be the "original" speech of the mountainous Dorians who didn't mix with the Peloponnesian population. So, my assumption would be that Doris, and before that possibly parts of Epirus, would be the areas where the Dorians originated from. Whether or not they already existed throughout Peloponnese in some capacity during the Mycenaean times, it remains an open question.
@@WanaxTVThessalians who was Dorians and conquer the Boeotians in west Thessaly, come from the area of Thesprotia in Epirus.
@@cosmomusa Yes, that's what I was referring to. That's the reason for the map of Dorian areas following the legend and not sticking strictly to tiny Doris region.
Yes it happened, but the Dorians did not claim to be from northern Greece, they didn't invade from northern Greece, they invaded southern Greece from the sea, originating in a city in Palistinian called Dor! Where Hellenistic culture and architecture have been discovered
its possible that dorian came in after the collapse. of mycean centers
A problem is that radiocarbon dates for that period are complicated (the calibration curve becomes almost flat, making difficult to be precise). However I strongly lean for the Dorians causing the initial "palaces abandonment" c. 1130 BCE, while the full collapse (destruction of most cities) belongs to a later date, c. 1070 BCE, when there must have been a major foreign invasion, which I believe is reflected in Plato's story of Atlantis, in which a Western force threatened the Eastern Mediterranean but was defeated by Athens eventually, being Athens the only Mycenaean era city that survived the onslaught. This date is very convenient because it's also that of the Berber (Meswesh) conquest of Lower Egypt, ending the New Kingdom.
@@LuisAldamiz Maybe
Is there a proper carbonation timeline for each city's collapse
@@thomasdaywalt7735 - We would have to dive on lots of papers written for over a century. Think that most of the Bronze Age archaeology for Greece was done around 1900, long before radiocarbon; thus the basic chronology (Helladic, Minoan in Crete) was based on stratigraphy and pottery types. Later therer's been studies with C14 and such but what I've seen (not exhaustive, rather fragmentary, look better on your own if you want the best possible answer) seems rather for specific sites or compilation of such sites, many of which are not the most important cities (maybe just isolated tombs excavated later or whatever, stuff like the periphery of ancient Athens, etc.)
But the big problem is that the C14 calibration curve is almost flat for the Late Bronze. You probably know that for each raw C14 date (BP), in order to give a realistic date, you have to compare with the best available calibration curve in order to produce the calBP roughly "real" date. For most periods the curve is not quite but near 45º, almost 1:1 correspondence and little ambiguity, but in this particular period it becomes horribly flat (a bit bumpy actually but almost flat). That's a very annoying inconvenience.
So what I did back in the day (always in limited amateur scope) was to compare potteries, especially with Egypt, where Greek ware was arriving and where the chronology is more solidly established. This suggests me that the first palatial decline (which I associate to the Dorian invasion, an intestine Greek dynastic quarrel) happened c. 1130 BCE but that the generalized destruction that spared only a few cities like Athens happened c. 1070 BCE, coincident with the conquest of Lower Egypt by the Berbers (Meswesh), thus I tentatively associate that with the Platonic narration of Atlantis (Western peoples invading the Eastern Mediterranean but defeated "by Athens" specifically). These Western peoples we know some from the narratives of the Sea Peoples (between 1280 and 1175 BCE): the Sherden (Nuraghic Sardinians), the Libu and/or Meswesh (Berbers = Amazigh) and probably also the Weshesh (Ausones, Latin plural of Auso, which are archaeologically documented to have pirated Greece), others, including the Atlanteans proper were probably from Iberia, where some civilizations did exist, and one fits quite well with the description.
So, yes, if you ask me, I do think that there was an Atlantean invasion fitting quite well but not completely what Plato tells: Atlantic civilization (only one in those days, around modern Lisbon, very influential and old) capital atop a hill in the center of the rectangular peninsula (rather than island), connected to the Ocean by a canal ("marine branch" in archaeologist slang) of the almost exact measure, with ten royal tombs (hypogees) scattered through the realm, with "ritual bull hunting" since time immemorial to present day, with good access to the best mineral deposits available then, with major imports of ivory (but not native elephants), destroyed by likely tsunami (canal silted at the collapse of the civilization, around 1100 BCE, probably a bit later), etc. The main discrepancy is the date (9000 years before Plato there were no civilizations, this one began c. 3000-2800 BCE, there were no Greeks, no Egypt and no Athens) and I've also been unable to find any trace of the famous rings. The date for this invasion, which must have been a massive endeavor, and was to some extent successful (destruction of most of Greece, Berber conquest of Lower Egypt), should have beem c. 1070 BCE, a century after the fall of Troy and the Hittites.
i still think dorians migrated from the north
I have a total other belief . I Think that the dorians were present in mycenean world . They were myceneans themself . I think some of rulers of palaces centers were dorians …
dorians with the heracleidae was allies in this campaing and the first invasion was end with the duel of hyllos and leader of argos. hyllos lose so the heracleidae turn back
Wasn't Dor's mixed with greece and became macedonians so i think it happened
Nope. Doris was part of "Mycenean" (Bronze Age) Greece but at its northern border with Thessaly (Pelasgoi). It was there where the Heraklids established a tiny provisional kingdom in the century between their exile and their legendary return.
The Brygei-Macedonians (producing Phrygians-Muskhi-Armenians) almost certainly stem from a different migration from the area of Serbia, distantly related to the Greeks (Vucedol culture) but arrived to Greece a century later and by a different route. I've become persuaded that the early Greeks conquered Greece not by land but from the sea and that the place where they learned to sail was coastal Montenegro: Mala Gruda facies of Vucedol culture, with pretty much the same kind of tumular architecture as the earliest Greeks, which were always located in the south of Greece and not in the North (excepted two coastal sites).
The Dorians were Greeks but regionally different, after many centuries, almost 1000 years, of regional divergence, and thus spoke a distinct dialect, which they imposed by elite domination, much like the Normans imposed the word "pork" to cooked pig (along with 50% of the vocabulary, which is French-based) in English.
yes macedonians were dorians as well , the dorians probably came from the pindus
@@wankawanka3053 Παντως η αρχαια Δορικη τετραπολις ειναι εδω που μενω Γραβια , Καστελια , Αποστολια ,ΛΙλεα , στους προποδες του Παρνασσου και οπου ακους Παρνασσος , Ιλισσος , Οδυσσος , Ορχομενος κτλ ειναι ΜΙνυες Γρεκοι Πελασγοι δλδ ντοπιοι δουλευταραδες χα χα ! . Αν πας ποτε στην Γραβια δες πανω στο βουνο θα δεις μια Ελληνικη σημαια ,ειναι καρφωμενη επανω σε Πελασγικα τοιχοι , αν το λενε τα ποδια σου ανεβα να ανατριχιασεις ( και προσεχε μην σκοτωθεις ) και δες που εχτισαν οι ανθρωποι για να προστατευτουν και για να κανουν πλιατσικο σε οσους προσπαθουσαν να περασουν το περασμα προς την Αμφισσα το γνωστο 51 !! Και το ονομα τους το πηραν νομιζω απο εναν Βασιλια η γενναρχη τους τον ΔΟΡΟ ,
Dorians returned , not invaded
TEbs...Tebes! I always said Naw...to easy...
Dorians we're an Albanian Tribe witch are the Modern Kosovar People witch are still Albanian's.
the Albanians did not exist in ancient times they came to the region with the Ottoman Empire
To accept one theory is only a foolish decision. Mycenaen Greece was a vast territory in southern greece, in one part (e.g) region of Athens the Dorians could have invaded meanwhile in place's such as Sparta they could have migrated. The fall of Mycenaen Greece could have had multiple factors playing in just as for Rome, e.g invasions, mass migration, political collapse due to revolutions, multiple attacks and plagues etc.
Mostly mythology. The Dorian *migration* did not enhance civilization.
Nobody knows... yet.
Herr Achilles- High Eagle of Zeus
Dorians are Illyrians that spoke a variation of Greek.
Lol because that makes sense 😂 the dorians were greeks and that's about it
you Albanians are a lot of fun after all.dorians have nothing to do with the ilirians the ilirians have nothing to do with the Albanians.
@@yorgos19681 the diluted Slavic greek blood has the nerve to talk
Aigimios, Dymas, Hyllos etc. all are Albanian names even today. No Greeks back then. Even the Serpent symbol was Illyrian. Dorians came from Illyrian lands and conquered the Southern tribes.
As usually albanians are spreading nonsense without any historical source and the truth is you are all remnants of the ottomans and not indigenous
ahahahahaha
@@Platoretae Learn how to spell then ask QuestionS
most educated albanian be like haha
Dorians ar ilirans today Albanias, the explanation is in the name itself// DORA, DERA,DO,DON,DINI all those words are Albanian used in every day lives
lol go and speak to the tsakoness in greece and let's see if they'll understand you ;)
Dorian are Albanian,Dorian is a Hand on language Albanian
tsakones in greece speak doric today yet albanians can't understand ;) wonder why....
Who says that? You? 😂😂😂
Then you might undetstand and explain to us certain documents as chorus in greek tragedies that primarily and basically it was in Dorian would you like me to choose one
@@chrisg.k487 actually it is search researched and proven to the ignorance the vowels is the easy way to compare and understand the
resemblance amongst others otherwise a university course is needed
Nice try to push a pseudo-history
Aren't Greeks just lost orthodox Albanians? 😂
Brainwashed albanians talked.
No.... Albanians are Romanians or Georgians from Caucasus.
you are all mix of slavs turks and greeks and romanians
@@sgeosg Unfortunately for you, there is no such thing as Greek. Greeks are originally Romanians but mixed with Albanians, Turks and Slavs.
@@southepirote7676 i told you the truth you are not indigenous you are not illyrians there is no proof no one takes you serious about your stupid claims and
i dont understand the hate on Greeks these people helped you after the fall of communism and still many albanians are working in Greece
😂😂 you are so wrong Dorët were a Ilirian tribe they were not greek
Nobody is talking about Doret or whatever that means in your language. Unfortunately the Albanians are among the least educated when it comes to history and most prone to bizarre conspiracy theories.
lol pathetic albo go to tsakonia and try to speak to the doric speaker there good luck ;)
Doritos. The Albanian legacy.😂😂😂
What is dotet?
All Pelasgian… all today called Albanians.
Enough is enough with that obsolete hypothesis wich has been rejected before 140 years.
Helena Kosaqi set a fraud to sell books in uneducated Albanians.
then you woke up ;)
@@wankawanka3053 not fantasy… it’s 600+ years of European sources that the World is just rediscovering.
Ancient scources on particular differentiate between pelasgianians and dorians.So these guys are not pelasgian
@@nacolepanto3408 Dorians are Pelasgians of Celtic (Druid) influence. Alpine Albanians of Dardania.
😃😃😃 enough do the fake history the Dorians were Albanian Illyrian origin from north Albania and who from you explain me what does Dorian means
😂
You have an IQ of a five years old chimp 😂