Great discussion. As someone who is currently dealing with the ramifications of spiritual abuse and taking steps to confront the abuser, this book has been extremely helpful. As for the term spiritual abuse, my mother described it to me in the late 70’s after discussing a family issue with our pastor, who happened to be a seminary professor.
I believe leaders really need to have a wake up call. Far too many assume to extensive an authority over the lives of congregants which simply does not belong to them. Heavy shepherding is still rife, worldwide, and it needs to STOP! Many of us have had to walk away for our own good. I, for one, just can't continue to be so depressed and debilitated that I feel I'm breaking down, and worse, and am then unable to function in life. That can't be right. Church and ministry leadership was NEVER intended to be a dictatorship.
We can forgive as a potential to be given to the perpetrator. It releases us. The perpetrator isn't free. It will eat away at them. And they will suffer greatly. Also, the perpetrator can sometimes believe they are the victim, so they won't repent.
Not terribly long ago Francis Chan had a sermon where he chastised people for “attacking the temple” and he said, “oh you wanted to just let us know about some abuse or something that someone did or said that hurt you, oh you poor victim!” See… it is this approach which is simply despicable. It’s quite disgusting really… and while we could just say, “well who is Francis Chan anyway and why does he even matter? What authority does he have to say such things or speak abusively to the Lord’s people?” and we would be right to ask that, but the reality is that men like him and many others are extremely influential. Ultimately we need to be very well aware of who we are in Christ and to just be willing to say that men are flawed and we have one Shepherd. One can’t really read through God’s condemnation of the wicked shepherds in Ezekiel and think that we are now supposed to submit to a whole new gang of shepherds when He clearly says He will establish Christ as our Shepherd. If you want to be able to clearly identify those leaders in the Body who truly love Christ, it is by the way they care for His sheep. Accept no substitutes!!! There is one Christ. There is one Good Shepherd and there is only One Head of One Body.
YES. This is a common result of previous abuse - to distrust ourselves. We cover this in one of the modules in our Rebuilding [After Religious Abuse] course, because it's a foundational topic. I always thought I was the problem (I wasn't healed enough or I was too sensitive), but thankfully, it didn't stay that way! -Naomi
I've definitely been bullied in church by the pastor and street people who got saved. The same behavior they had in the street they now bring their street mentality of handling people the same way. Gangter behavior for sure. I've contacted an attorney. This woman, and man that's jealous of me came in the church and told lies, they spread through out the church and my name was defamed. It's wrong and cruel. Sometimes I think the church feels like they can't be sued.
And sometimes the laws make it incredibly difficult to sue a church or a parachurch organization. I am so sorry you've been treated this way-it's so far from how we are to be treating one another. -Naomi
Yes, theology suffers when character is poor. They twist scripture when applied to their targets. Then some odd things get said in sermons when teying to target their victims.
We ought to read Matthew 18 again and understand the context intent of it. It has nothing to do with confronting “leadership” but rather dealing with interpersonal situations.
Abused for bringing to the elders the false teaching coming through the appointed pastor. This was in confidence with elders and by sending well written articles from recognised biblical scholars about the the writer of a book being used to teach in place of the Bible who wrote about non biblical church practices. The elders did not respond appropriately with Scripture to support the perceived false teaching but personally attacking us , labeling us as fault finding and attacking our character and questioning our spiritual state. They focused on me as the wife/woman to the extent my husband was shocked and disturbed. They ended with statements such as despite what we have said we love you and want you to remain in fellowship with us. It was clear we were unable to remain under 'condemnation' week after week and affirm continuing false teaching and practice. We forgive but as you say there is no reconciliation and await an approach from them to reconcile because the wounds run deep but as you say rare repentance and reconciliation are rare. We are now in a church out of our area and healing slowly, but much stronger spiritually from this horrible experience.
Spiritual abuse, humiliation and gaslighting is real in my life. I have been shamed, gossiped about and even reported to the authorities for coming out to my church about my sexual orientation, and then had an understandable reaction when I had been discriminated against. It made me experience intense and severe religious trauma that I am finding so hard to draw close to God now, because I know God must hate me for being like this. You can disagree with everything about homosexuality, but please don't cry wolf when you are the wolf, and then owe the victim complex when you are not the victim of discrimination and bigotry.
16:43 I don’t believe this is true, that you could forgive someone who has not repented of abuse. We see absolutely zero evidence of this happening in scripture or that we have a command to do this. Note: “Father forgive them…” is Christ praying for His enemies. It is not an example of Jesus forgiving their sin, because He prays that the Father would do it. “… because they do not know what they are doing.” This indicates that the sin itself was done in ignorance. Therefore any example we take from Christ on the cross is A. Praying to the Father, and B. Forgiveness may be extended toward people who have sinned in ignorance. Of course later in Acts this is fulfilled when Peter confronts the Jewish leaders and they say, “what must we do??” And Peter says… ahem… “repent”. So we see that repentance precedes forgiveness. There is never a time when forgiveness happens apart from repentance. Even Jesus says, “if your brother sins against him, confront him and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him.” Here is another example. In fact in Matthew 18 the entire passage that we call “church discipline” completely reserves forgiveness ONLY for the person who is repentant. If we read it again we will see this clearly. Jesus never says, “if someone sins against you just forgive him, but make sure the are disciplined.” Actually we see that discipline can be avoided if the person repents! Isn’t that something. To this of course Peter is troubled and asks how many times he ought to then forgive someone and the answer is essentially, “as many times as they repent.” Of course a man who stands in some office of authority must be dealt with if he has forsaken that one thing, “do you love Me? Then feed My sheep.”
I had vision loss because I left the church I'm considered demonized shund ghosted lied about and everyone that leaves them bad things happen to.? I was said.
I'm so sorry you've been treated this way. I hope you're able to have your vision assessed by a proper medical team. The narratives are always spun according to the existing group narrative: if I had left and then gotten into a car accident? It would have been God's judgement. If I was still in and got into a car accident? It would have been God's mercy that I was alive. Confirmation bias at it's finest. -Naomi
This just came up in a conversation! Based on scripture, I'm not sure how either could be completely cut out, though it does seem like someone could lean more heavily in one direction based on the needs of the congregation.
@beEmboldened I asked because we just left a church that the pastor did more evangelizing than any pastor I have ever heard of. Very toxic and controlling. Church mostly family.
@@lindawalton3969 I recently heard about a pastor who said that the church he was leading wasn't for the believer, it was for the unbeliever. Definitely too far. Sounds similar!
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Great discussion. As someone who is currently dealing with the ramifications of spiritual abuse and taking steps to confront the abuser, this book has been extremely helpful. As for the term spiritual abuse, my mother described it to me in the late 70’s after discussing a family issue with our pastor, who happened to be a seminary professor.
Ugh, confronting the abuser is big. Please reach out if our direct services team can be of help to you. I'm glad this episode was of benefit!
I believe leaders really need to have a wake up call. Far too many assume to extensive an authority over the lives of congregants which simply does not belong to them. Heavy shepherding is still rife, worldwide, and it needs to STOP! Many of us have had to walk away for our own good. I, for one, just can't continue to be so depressed and debilitated that I feel I'm breaking down, and worse, and am then unable to function in life. That can't be right. Church and ministry leadership was NEVER intended to be a dictatorship.
100%.
With all my heart thank you Naomi.❤️🦋🇦🇺
Oh my gosh, of course! 🤍
Excellent! You ask such wonderful, thoughtful questions, Naomi!
Thank you so much!
So true about it being a long process...going on two years right now...and still ongoing...
You are not alone in that "long process" experience. It takes so much longer than we initially think it will.
Thank you both! As a victim of spiritual abuse in the PCA, this book and interview have been helpful to give words to my experience
Such a helpful book. Thank you for commenting!
We can forgive as a potential to be given to the perpetrator. It releases us. The perpetrator isn't free. It will eat away at them. And they will suffer greatly.
Also, the perpetrator can sometimes believe they are the victim, so they won't repent.
Thank you for this podcast. This was an excellent, grace-filled episode.
Glad you enjoyed it, Emma! Dr. Kruger is top notch. So much respect for him.
Excellent theological discussion. So very much a needed topic to be addressed in the church. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
It was a very good book! I just finished it.
Agreed!
This was a good interview. Lots to appreciate in here. I was particularly glad you asked about Matthew 18.
I appreciate Dr. Kruger's work so much. I'm glad you enjoyed this conversation, too! -Naomi
Not terribly long ago Francis Chan had a sermon where he chastised people for “attacking the temple” and he said, “oh you wanted to just let us know about some abuse or something that someone did or said that hurt you, oh you poor victim!” See… it is this approach which is simply despicable. It’s quite disgusting really… and while we could just say, “well who is Francis Chan anyway and why does he even matter? What authority does he have to say such things or speak abusively to the Lord’s people?” and we would be right to ask that, but the reality is that men like him and many others are extremely influential. Ultimately we need to be very well aware of who we are in Christ and to just be willing to say that men are flawed and we have one Shepherd. One can’t really read through God’s condemnation of the wicked shepherds in Ezekiel and think that we are now supposed to submit to a whole new gang of shepherds when He clearly says He will establish Christ as our Shepherd. If you want to be able to clearly identify those leaders in the Body who truly love Christ, it is by the way they care for His sheep. Accept no substitutes!!! There is one Christ. There is one Good Shepherd and there is only One Head of One Body.
I like that well said
I thought we were all priests, all images of God, and tabernacles. Sounds like a community. Or some would say, a body.
The comments of Francis Chan in the Bickle issues haven't helped Bickle, they've made me wonder what Chan has done.
I get red flags all the time and I don’t trust the person in leadership, but then I question myself,and think am I over sensitive?
YES. This is a common result of previous abuse - to distrust ourselves. We cover this in one of the modules in our Rebuilding [After Religious Abuse] course, because it's a foundational topic. I always thought I was the problem (I wasn't healed enough or I was too sensitive), but thankfully, it didn't stay that way! -Naomi
The western church is toxic. Read Scot McKnight book by same topic.
I've definitely been bullied in church by the pastor and street people who got saved. The same behavior they had in the street they now bring their street mentality of handling people the same way. Gangter behavior for sure. I've contacted an attorney. This woman, and man that's jealous of me came in the church and told lies, they spread through out the church and my name was defamed. It's wrong and cruel. Sometimes I think the church feels like they can't be sued.
And sometimes the laws make it incredibly difficult to sue a church or a parachurch organization. I am so sorry you've been treated this way-it's so far from how we are to be treating one another. -Naomi
@@beEmboldened I forgive them
You contacted an attorney?!?! For gossip?!?! Pitiful. I agree what Michael Kruger said but calling an attorney for gossip. Pitiful.
Yes, theology suffers when character is poor. They twist scripture when applied to their targets.
Then some odd things get said in sermons when teying to target their victims.
We ought to read Matthew 18 again and understand the context intent of it. It has nothing to do with confronting “leadership” but rather dealing with interpersonal situations.
How we engage with those who sin against us....leader or no. Leaders are not singled out.
Abused for bringing to the elders the false teaching coming through the appointed pastor. This was in confidence with elders and by sending well written articles from recognised biblical scholars about the the writer of a book being used to teach in place of the Bible who wrote about non biblical church practices. The elders did not respond appropriately with Scripture to support the perceived false teaching but personally attacking us , labeling us as fault finding and attacking our character and questioning our spiritual state. They focused on me as the wife/woman to the extent my husband was shocked and disturbed. They ended with statements such as despite what we have said we love you and want you to remain in fellowship with us. It was clear we were unable to remain under 'condemnation' week after week and affirm continuing false teaching and practice. We forgive but as you say there is no reconciliation and await an approach from them to reconcile because the wounds run deep but as you say rare repentance and reconciliation are rare. We are now in a church out of our area and healing slowly, but much stronger spiritually from this horrible experience.
'Targetted' can be used instead of 'victimised'.
I just came across this comment, again, and I love it! -Naomi
Spiritual abuse, humiliation and gaslighting is real in my life. I have been shamed, gossiped about and even reported to the authorities for coming out to my church about my sexual orientation, and then had an understandable reaction when I had been discriminated against. It made me experience intense and severe religious trauma that I am finding so hard to draw close to God now, because I know God must hate me for being like this.
You can disagree with everything about homosexuality, but please don't cry wolf when you are the wolf, and then owe the victim complex when you are not the victim of discrimination and bigotry.
I'm so saddened to read of how you were treated. The way you were treated was wrong. 💔
16:43 I don’t believe this is true, that you could forgive someone who has not repented of abuse. We see absolutely zero evidence of this happening in scripture or that we have a command to do this.
Note: “Father forgive them…” is Christ praying for His enemies. It is not an example of Jesus forgiving their sin, because He prays that the Father would do it. “… because they do not know what they are doing.” This indicates that the sin itself was done in ignorance. Therefore any example we take from Christ on the cross is A. Praying to the Father, and B. Forgiveness may be extended toward people who have sinned in ignorance. Of course later in Acts this is fulfilled when Peter confronts the Jewish leaders and they say, “what must we do??” And Peter says… ahem… “repent”. So we see that repentance precedes forgiveness.
There is never a time when forgiveness happens apart from repentance. Even Jesus says, “if your brother sins against him, confront him and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him.” Here is another example. In fact in Matthew 18 the entire passage that we call “church discipline” completely reserves forgiveness ONLY for the person who is repentant. If we read it again we will see this clearly.
Jesus never says, “if someone sins against you just forgive him, but make sure the are disciplined.” Actually we see that discipline can be avoided if the person repents! Isn’t that something. To this of course Peter is troubled and asks how many times he ought to then forgive someone and the answer is essentially, “as many times as they repent.”
Of course a man who stands in some office of authority must be dealt with if he has forsaken that one thing, “do you love Me? Then feed My sheep.”
I had vision loss because I left the church I'm considered demonized shund ghosted lied about and everyone that leaves them bad things happen to.? I was said.
I'm so sorry you've been treated this way. I hope you're able to have your vision assessed by a proper medical team.
The narratives are always spun according to the existing group narrative: if I had left and then gotten into a car accident? It would have been God's judgement. If I was still in and got into a car accident? It would have been God's mercy that I was alive. Confirmation bias at it's finest. -Naomi
Please listen to Dr Diane Langbergs teaching on Healing Religious Trauma. The church is wrong wrong wrong.
Threatening believers in this way is totally NOT of God.
Should a leader be both an evangelist and a pastor at the same time.
This just came up in a conversation! Based on scripture, I'm not sure how either could be completely cut out, though it does seem like someone could lean more heavily in one direction based on the needs of the congregation.
@beEmboldened I asked because we just left a church that the pastor did more evangelizing than any pastor I have ever heard of. Very toxic and controlling. Church mostly family.
@@lindawalton3969 I recently heard about a pastor who said that the church he was leading wasn't for the believer, it was for the unbeliever. Definitely too far. Sounds similar!