ODYSSEUS OF ITHACAAA! | Keep Your Friends Close/Ruthlessness - Epic: The Musical | Reaction/Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2024
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Intro: (0:00)
Keep Your Friends Close - Reaction/Analysis: (5:20)
Ruthlessness - Reaction/Analysis : (19:55)
Outro: (29:37) 
Видеоклипы
"Odysseus have you ever thought for 6 milliseconds before doing something?" Well he did spend the course of a very fucked up lullaby deciding to drop a baby off a wall, and has regretted it ever since. Maybe that's why he's not stopping to think things over now
That’s… huh. That’s a very good point 😆
yeah its almost like he may have actually done the wrong thing there. (it probably would end up with his death had he not, but still odds are he would have made it home without that on his conscious impairing his decisions)
@@speedy01247 Honestly, it was war. If he was told everyone who fought with him and everyone he loved would die unless he killed the baby, it was the necessary choice. Needs of the many over needs of the few
@@speedy01247we've been shown how messed up the gods are in this musical and the kingpin of Mount Olympus was literally staring him in the face telling him to drop the baby off the wall, he may have been mainly talking about consequences that the child would bring on him in the future if he survived, but at least to me it seems like if he had said no then the gods would have made his life a living hell (which they kind of did anyway, but in the timeline where he says no to them right away you can imagine them intentionally inflicting every one of these pains upon him, because as it stands most of it is just God politics they're not mad about anything he actually did, Poseidon isn't actually mad about what happened to his son, he just doesn't want to look like a puss in front of the other gods, Zeus didn't actually want to murder odysseus's crew he just had to do something because Helios was breathing down his neck, and I don't know maybe Calypso was just horny) I hope that wasn't too confusing, because I meant to get across the point that if he had said no to them, then they would have intentionally made Odysseus suffer whereas in our timeline they made him suffer to keep up appearances)/, Poseidon is the only one who may have actually been mad about what happened to his son, but even then he doesn't murder Odysseus outright, he just screws around with the weather, despite the fact that he killed over 500 of his men, not actually attempting to take the life of the person who blinded your son just screams "I am extracting a blood price from you because it is what is demanded of me but I will actually not take your blood because I don't want to do it, I'm only killing 500 of your men so that the other gods won't bully me"
Drowning at sea was considered one of the worst ways to die in Greek mythology… because your body couldn’t be retrieved.. which makes this even darker
:anguish:
@@officialmortius :Pain:
@@justanormalpeeps3938 :depression:
@@drcubeface :saddness:
@@assemhassan6360 :hurt:
You'll also notice that Odysseus. Never actually apologizes. He doesn't say I'm so sorry or we're sorry. He just Deflex around it with words.
I feel like either way they were screwed because Odysseus would not be sincere in that apology
I think Odysseus was sincere, but Poseidon line about naivity and hopefulness is his way of saying "You're a fool for believing me, now die"
To be fair, he shouldn't be sorry
@@roanekanota1199that line can be taken at least 2 ways. There's what you said but he could also be speaking to himself saying he was foolish to expect this man to learn or give an apology.
@@somedudewatchintv5297That's true. At least, Odysseus didn't out right lie to a god (because he would have lied by saying sorry)
I love the fact that one song can lead to multiple interpretations
Another parallel I love in AnniFlamma’s Ruthlessness: Poseidon as a horse saying to Odysseus “I am your darkest moment”. Odysseus is the one who came up with the idea for the Trojan Horse, and he regrets doing it. In his mind he was dishonorably slaughtering sleeping men, and it haunts him still.
The Trojan Horse was also masquerading as an offering to Poseidon, which is why the Trojans brought it into his temple. His crew also did nothing to honor Poseidon before they left Troy. They’d been riding on unearned goodwill for a while before Poseidon drew a line at blinding his son being the final insult.
@@BrandonVout SHIT! Ody should have really thought about it
@@BrandonVout Which is why he says "I've been so gracious, and yet you hurt the son of mine-". He'd allowed them safe passage on the seas even after using his image to defeat the Trojans, and then they went on and not only blinded Polyphemus, but Odysseus also felt the need to rub it in while also exposing his true identity in the process.
@@BrandonVout
Additionally, horse imagery is arguably another thing that Poseidon has rivalry with Athena over.
Athena is sometimes titled 'Hippia' ('of horses') and is credited with inventing the chariot, bit and bridle - So if we credit Poseidon with creating horses (which is one version of the 'who gets Athens' competition), or at least fathering a lot of them, we can view Athena as having essentially 'tamed' Poseidon's creation.
With regards to the Trojan horse, in the Posthomerica and the Aeneid, when the Greeks planted it at Troy, with it went Sinon (a Greek who feigned desertion), to persuade the Trojans to take it as an offering to Athena to replace the Palladium.
Additionally, Aeolus (Hippotades - "the Reiner of Horses") is typically portrayed as a king (with a wife and 12 kids) who functions as ruler of the those Amenoi, who are (in these versions) his divine horses... Which is a really nice bit of irony here.
I think that might have been considered a bit too much horse imagery for the musical to go with. XD
At least when I was learning about the Illiad and Odyssey in school we were taught the idea for the Trojan Horse actually came from Poseidon, and Odysseus further slighted him by claiming credit and that they had won the war without divine intervention.
The little guys are called "winions!" Also, Telemachus' face is scratched out because he was just a baby when Odysseus left (remember when he compares him to Hector's infant son in "Just a Man"?), so Odysseus doesn't even know what his own son looks like :(
At the end of "Keep Your Friends Close," Aeolus warns the crew that they are heading to the "land of the giants," so the background vocals from "Ruthlessness" are being sung by those giants, called the Laestragonians. So far, I haven't seen any artists who have actually depicted the Laestrygonians in their animatics.
In addition to reprising "I am your darkest moment," the last "remember me" from Poseidon is also an echo of what Odysseus said to Polyphemus.
Interesting, I never noticed that last “remember me” was a callback
yes and those parts of just a man was poseidon's doing, using his godly powers to remind odysseus of his past mistakes, truly ruthless...
I am so glad someone mentioned the Laestrygonians 'cause even if they don't get that much attention in the novel, they are the ones who get the highest body count!
wait so the voices who echo poseidon are the giants? the deep voices in the background? I thought it was the whole "gods can make backup singers thing""
@halfknight2310 In many of Jay's pre-release snippets of Ruthlessness, he captions the echo as "Laestrygonians." It is possible he may have changed his intentions though.
A lot of people are saying Odysseus didn't actually apologize and that's why Poseidon killed his men, but I think they're missing the point. Poseidon just sang a whole song about how ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves, saying you can't make an enemy then let them live. Throughout the song it is very clear he has every intention of killing Odysseus. And the line directly after the apology (genuine or not) isn't "that wasn't an apology." It's "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible." He's calling Odysseus naive for believing an apology would earn him Poseidon's mercy. Poseidon was never going to let Odysseus or his men live, because it goes against his entirely philosophy. "You are far too nice, mercy has a price." "Unlike you I've got no mercy left to give." Nothing Odysseus said would ever have gotten them mercy from Poseidon.
This. I'm so tired of everyone parroting the "He didn't apologize" line like that means something. Like Poseidon wasn't one of the less chill gods in the greek pantheon with a tendency for violent outbursts (as would be expected from a personification of the ocean itself). People seem so keen on blaming Odysseus (and only him) for everything that goes wrong in this journey, it gets a little tiresome.
Totally agree with you, it's not like he was mad because Odysseus lied, he was already mad and nothing was going to change that. Actually it's easy to trick the gods if you know how, but to change their minds, mmm...
I agree that I believe Poseidon was never going to give mercy to Odysseus and his crew. But, I do think it shows more about Odysseus as a person, that he was unwilling to apologize and still attempted to use his wordplay to try to justify himself to a God. A god that just stated before that he hated self righteousness. It further shows his fault of hubris.
@@laurarocha4455yes because in that moment he should have done something else
@@laurarocha4455 I think u said it perfectly. Both (interpretations? Observations?) are valid and add something to your reading of the text. But umm ya i don’t think Poseidon was gonna let them go… 😥
The whole white thing over telemacus's eyes is just bc Odysseus has been gone so long he doesn't know what his son actually looks like its not heinous lmao
odysseus has 12 ships with 50 men each (600 men) Polyphemus killed 7 from the main ship and Poseidon sank the other 11 ships leaving 43 on ody's flagship
Ooh, thank you for the math, Phem killing seven of the main crew makes sense.
At first I thought you meant fandom ships as in relationships and was really confused 😂
A fun little detail is that 11 is also the total amount of "Captain!"s and "Ruthlessness is mercy upon our-"s we get as Poseidon is sinking the ships.
@@kittycatzukaidk if that’s fun😀 /j
It’s 44 left on the ship Poseidon counts old Elpenor as a dead man before he dies, as he falls from the roof of circes while asleep in a drunken stupor!
Worst part, Ithaca was just on sight when they opened the bag, so he literally almost succed
Also, Poseidon never intended to let them live, he just wanted to see him humilated, bc in case you haven't noticed, Odysseus fatal flaw is hubris/pride. Also Ody technically never apologized, just excused his actions, he tried to bluff, to do what Poseidon asked without actually doing it, using his wits (you rely on wit, and poeple die on it), you can see it in how he phrased everything, and how the animatic shows him smiling, it's definitely not an Im innocent smile, more like I got you now, fall for my trap/lie. He always looked for the "smart" way out- didn't really work against the god who no matter what wanted to see him dead.
The English word "apology" comes from Greek roots apo + logos, which can be more direcly translated as "story of reason" or "reasonable explanation", which means that as a Greek, Odysseus very much DID apologise to the best of his ability, but as Poseidon himself said: "I want to see you bleed, I need to make your drown, but first..." - the god of the ocean isn't known as the most capricious and vengeful of all olympians for nothing.
I think had he been more willing to trust his second to watch it and been more open with him it could have went better. (of course the counter is he may have opened it earlier) honestly its at least partly on his second for allowing them to open the bag.
@@speedy01247boy do I have a story to tell you...
The survivors amounted to only the men on Odysseus' ship.
Also, when Poseidon was drowning the fleet and all the men were crying "Captain!" The melody of the captains is the same melody from the beginning that was chanting "Poseidon". And that melody is the "Danger is Near" motif.
the motif is also in Polyphemus after Odysseus says "It's almost too perfect" as well as in the horse and the infant before he starts talking to Zeus
@joshbarlow3991 looking for the danger is near motif is one of my favorite things. It's also in The Horse and the Infant right after Odysseus yells "Attack!"
And it is in "Warrior of the Mind" when Odysseus says "show yourself"
@roanekanota1199 I never caught that one. Gotta go listen to Warrior of the Mind real quick.
@roanekanota1199 Okay, that is the coolest thing. It really casts their dynamic in a new light!
I just noticed recently and I can’t stop thinking about it: after the lines “A Greek who reeks of false righteousness - that’s what I hate!” the piano comes back for a while. And later when he sings “so close your heart, the world is dark”, there’s the piano again.
Because Poseidon is echoing what Athena was saying. Her lessons.
Maybe Athena is even listening in, like “see? That’s what I was talking about.”
I mean, Poseidon is her uncle despite of their rivalry - He's one of the big three and the original six.
Heck, the oldest version of Poseidon was the ruler instead of Zeus, as the civilization before the Hellenistic Greece worshipped cathonic Gods - Poseidon was ruler of the underworld, sea and earthquakes.
Ohhh I didn’t notice that, it’s so smart!
Hi I can kinda confirm about Athena’s piano motif in the background jorge confirms it in a tictok with more depth and explanation so I would definitely check his tictok to double but your definitely on point with her piano i believe 😊
Edit: I also believe she is listening into their conversation/fight coz she literally told odyssey pretty much the same thing Poseidon and is either A: listening too make sure he gets the point across or B: she doesn’t want to see him hurt by Poseidon or C: all the above lol everyone has a different view tho 😊
@@Blueareo1257 I don’t have TikTok, though. But it’s nice to have confirmation :)
I 100% agree and have always said that Athena was there watching. And when it comes in at other points in the song means she co-signs exactly what Poseidon was saying.
That also means that she was 100% fine with what happened to Odysseus's crew.
Wisdom can be pretty ruthless.
There is a reason that AnniFlamma is usually The Recommendation for Ruthlessness - such a *fantastic* animation. Of note, while I agree that Odysseus was heartfelt in his explanation, it wasn't an *apology*. Someone also pointed out somewhere else that Poseidon drowning the rest of his men first (just sparing Odysseus's ship) was him honoring his son's "gift" of Odysseus being the last to die.
The English word "apology" comes from Greek roots apo + logos, which can be more direcly translated as "story of reason" or "reasonable explanation", which means that as a Greek, Odysseus very much DID apologise to the best of his ability, but as Poseidon himself said: "I want to see you bleed, I need to make your drown, but first..." - the god of the ocean isn't known as the most capricious and vengeful of all olympians for nothing.
Yeah but... Jorge has never said he knows all that stuff. Ultimately he's the reason all the characters say and do what they say and do, and if Jorge doesn't know what the roots of the word apology are, then he didn't intend those meanings in the lyrics. Not to mention, 'we didn't mean to, really, at least not that hard' is hardly a good justification (where did Odysseus explain WHY he had to do it?), and shows no regret either.
@@isawp5199"where does he explain why he did it?" We hurt him to disarm him ( IE it took away his ability to see so that he couldn't attack them anymore when he got up from the lotus wine) we took no pleasure in his pain we only wanted to escape (people have used odysseus's rant to polyphemus as an example of taking pleasure in his pain, but he was simply expressing anger at the fact that polyphemus was choosing violence instead of choosing to be merciful, and the tactical error of doxing himself is something that I think he meant to say because it would deepen the impact of his message) so yeah I think he pretty well explained why he had to do what he did, he put the lotus in the wine in case polyphemus chose to attack them, they had to wake up the Cyclops to get him away from the door but they had to do it in such a way that would make sure he couldn't attack them again, and even though he doesn't say it, it would have been even dumber to kill polyphemus, because that would have meant his carcass was stuck in front of the door to where they couldn't move it, so he neglected one bit of explanation but I don't necessarily think it would have helped
“ I am your darkest moment “ as the eldritch horse grin’s sadistically . So terrifying
Posidon asks for an apology.
Odysseus gives excuses/ reasonings.
Not an apology.
A.K.A The earliest known form of a RUclipsr Apology video :D
@@-drxxms-dxlight They still didn't invent the ukulele
Poseidon was going to kill him no matter what. He just wanted him to apologize for his ego.
Why should Odysseus apologize when Polyphemus tried to kill him?
@@SayukiSuzukiMizuno NOT THE UKELELE 🤣🤣😭😭
@@-drxxms-dxlight ALL I GOTTA DO IS TO PLAY THIS RIGHT NOW *ukulele noises*
There's a lot of people saying Odysseus didn't apologize, and I feel like those people don't understand what an apology _is._ It's not about literally saying "sorry", or "I apologize". It means an admission of error and/or acknowledgement of what you did wrong. When Odysseus says "we meant no harm" and "we took no pleasure in his pain", that _is_ an apology. That is an admission of, "yes, we hurt your son, and we shouldn't have done it". Does he give the reasons why they did that? Yes, but that's what you're _supposed_ to do when you give an apology. Explaining what happened is literally step two in the Harvard guide on how to apologize. Poseidon doesn't sink the fleet because Odysseus "didn't apologize", he sinks it because that's what he'd been saying he was going to do the entire time. "The line between naiveté and hopefulness is almost invisible." is basically him calling Odysseus out on, "Haven't you been hearing a word I said?" - pointing out that his offer of mercy flew in the face of everything he'd been saying up to that point, and that Odysseus was a fool to believe it.
This was perfectly said 👏👏👏
Odysseus did and didn't give an actual apology, while yes, what he said is an apology, the way Odysseus worded it and the way it was said was Odysseus trying to justify his actions. Poseidon wasn't going to spare him, that was obvious. It's possible had Odysseus gave more of an actual apology, like show he knew he fucked up, Poseidon may have spared his men, but he didn't, he tried to play coy and just beat around the bush with the god who wants to see him dead. Poseidon didn't care if Odysseus apologized or not, he was going to make him pay regardless.
EXACTLY someone who gets it
@@Scar-Predatorno don't stop that's not how this works
The parallel of Poseidon holding the infant while talking about his son can also work with the line "a greek who reeks of false righteousness" cause Odysseus was all on his high horse not wanting to kill Polyphemus (which I do think would have been the right move if he hadn't revealed his name) but he couldn't spare any mercy for the infant who hadn't done anything wrong yet. That's why I could never be on Odysseus's side in his argument with Athena, even though I'm all for mercy and compassion. I, too, hate false righteousness 😅
Hehehe "high horse"
"You reveal your name, then you let him live." My favourite line bcs it tells Ody what Athena wanted to tell him in "Remember them": Had Ody killed Polyphemus, Ployphemus wouldn't be in so much pain now and Poseidon (probably) wouldn't have come for him and his men. Had he not revealed his name, Polyphemus would still just know that Nobody did hurt him and Poseidon would have nothing to work with (given that he wasn't watching.)
What Odysseus did was not mercy, he condemned the Cyclops to die in the most horrible way possible, humiliating him and rubbing him in the face.
That's why Poseidon was angry, If I had killed him it would have been justified, that was humiliation And that he pretends to be merciful is even worse.
@@missvnuna3623 In fact, probably even if Poseidon knew that Ody killed Poly (hehehehe 🤓) he wouldn't have done anything For the so-called Greek justice
@@anniefemmas5097 I mean, Poseidon would probably still do some petty shit, killing Poly for food/survival is sortof a more acceptable way to die in Greek legends, so he probably wouldn't go like full annihilation with a side of psychological torture.
15:47 Ody considers being a father as an active role. The fact that he hasn't been there for his son's foundational years is something that haunts him through the whole story.
For the Circe saga, I'd recommend doing:
Puppeteer: Gigi
Wouldn't You Like: Ximena Natzel
Done For: AnniFlamma
and then waiting for AnniFlamma to finish their There are Other Ways animatic before reacting to the Circe saga. Almost no one has a There are Other Ways animatic yet, so you'll be waiting for someone one way or another.
also dont forget that mircsy is still working on an animatic of done for
@@Leo-kz2bb I don't tend to enjoy Mircsy's as much. I find them too over the top.
@@bookswithike3256 but you have to admit her Odysseus design is on fire, and their "My goodbye" animatic is in my opinion the best, just two close people arguing, with the result being on the end of their "friendship"
Gigi's on the process of finishing Wouldn't you like, and has already shown us the begining secuence
@@animacaodeumamador1006 I think you're thinking of Wolfy. Mircsy's version of My Goodbye is the one where Odysseus and Athena have a physical fight.
Telemaceus face being blurry is because oddy doesnt know what his son actually looks like
"and yet you hurt this son of mine!"
"It was at this moment he knew...he fucked up."
He's going to absolutely LOVE Hermes lmao
I do too tbh
SAMEE! I love him so much
We ALL love Hermes as a collective let's be honest lol
I agree, I think almost everyone likes him honestly
I don't trust anyone that doesn't love Hermes.
@@KristallOjedaso true
"The line between NAIVETY and HOPEFULLNESS is almost invisible." Did Ody apologize? Absolutely not... Even if he HAD apologized, Poseidon says 'I cant tell if your stupid or hopeful, but either way die.' Poseidon had no intent of sparing them if they apologized.
He did apologize
Poseidon: apologies for what you did to my son!
Odysseus: we did not mean to harm him. we only wanted to escape.
Poseidon: I see your point, but did you not hear where I said to; ME DAMN APOLOGIES?!!!
Yap, Odysseus was so arrogant to believe that he could justify himself before a god, as if they were both equal.
The English word "apology" comes from Greek roots apo + logos, which can be more direcly translated as "story of reason" or "reasonable explanation", which means that as a Greek, Odysseus very much DID apologise to the best of his ability, but as Poseidon himself said: "I want to see you bleed, I need to make your drown, but first..." - the god of the ocean isn't known as the most capricious and vengeful of all olympians for nothing.
@@akaittou I didn't know about the origin of the word. thanks for the lesson
Fun fact: Aeolus is actually wind or at least is depicted as the wind in the original story or something apparently there’s a lot of different thoughts. Also one thing that Gigi does is know how to add artist interpretations that break your heart for example when Odysseus is dreaming about his wife and son, Telemachus’s face is scribbled out because Odysseus doesn’t know what he looks like now since he left when Telemachus was a baby 😭
Aeolus in EPIC has no gender, just wind :)
@@TealVT ah okay thank you ^ ^
@@TealVT id say he is gender:fluid. But that feels more like the god children of POSEIDON (capitalized ofc)
@@Slash_to_your_heart I can see that yeah
@@TealVT Really? It was my understanding that Aeolus was still a guy, just the actor is a woman.
600 men, 12 ships, 50 men per ship. 6 crew from Odysseus’s ship + Polites died so 43 left on that ship. Poseidon sunk just the other 11 ships.
44 theresa manwho dies at circes, which is counted in the 43, then some how they lose one more in between circe and underworld
Fun fact: in "luck runs out" you can hear Aeolus' flute when Ody sings "this is the home of the wind god". Mental image of her listening in and playing her flute, thinking of how to cause a little chaos
AHH I never noticed his flute in this before that's actually so smart to add into the song
Some suggestions for the animatics of the circe saga, since there aren’t a lot that available with the now completed songs, for “puppeteer” I suggest gigi’s animatic, for “wouldn’t you like” by Ximena Natzel, for “Done for” by AnniFlamma, and for “there are other ways” (there aren’t much with the full song yet) by juu
I agree Gigi's animactic for Puppeteer is so good :D
honestly, id wait until mircsy releases their version of done for. as you said, there arent many full animatics available which sucks
“Mortius, the horse is back.”
LMAO
The entire shot of Posidon as a dark horse kicking up the waves was amazing. Just the sheer horror on Odysseus face is perfect
“Keep your Friends Close” is one of my top favorites, excited to see your reaction Aeolus is my favorite character by far, her carefree attitude and talk singing is amazing.
I've made this joke before on the actual animatic's video, but Odysseus gave a youtuber level apology there. He never even apologized, he just tried to justify his actions. The least you can do is say sorry to the God of the Sea for blinding his son.
Telemachus’ eyes are blanked because Odysseus hasn’t seen him since he was an infant. So he doesn’t know what he looks like older.
What makes the bag opening sadder is if I recall the story, they were within sight of home when they opened the bag
Unfortunately, however pretty it sounded in Ruthlessness, what Odysseus did was an excuse/justification of what he did to Polyphemus, and not an actual apology.
Not that it mattered, Poseidon was going to murk him and his men either way. "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible."
I mean yeah, the moment Ody chose to ignore Athena's advice regarding killing Polyphemus and instead chose to gloat and revealed himself he was gonna be attacked. You can actually hear some of Poseidon's instruments in Storm. The Trojan horse was supposed to be an offering to Poseidon, and Odysseus's crew hadn't been paying ANY tribute to Poseidon while crossing his domain. Blinding Polyphemus- when Poseidon would know Odysseus killed at that point an innocent infant- was just the last straw. Odysseus personally slighted Poseidon, and Poseidon wasn't gonna let him get away with it if he could help it.
@@eaglefan2569 And he's not even really angry, just annoyed, and somewhat offended.
Honestly my take is that Poseidon took that as an apology, but was NOT going to let him live if he did, which is why he called him naive, like no dude you are gonna die anyway
this is actually genius, you could say Ody didn't apologise, and tricked Poseidon into thinking he did, but he still killed them bcs Ruthlessness.
It’s so frustrating because they were so close to Ithaca’s shores that it was literally in sight, before Odysseus’s men opened the bag! They were so close!!!
Does any animatic actually show this? I’d love to see it
@@Smk42217 Gigi's animatic briefly shows Ithaca as Odysseus sings about Penelope and Telemachus.
"Is there ever a time when Odysseus has thought about something before doing it".
Yeah, when he dropped that fuckin kid off the wall!
In my opinion, Poseidon is less mad that Polyphemus is hurt, but more so that Odysseus blinded his son and led his siblings to believe he's a liar, but he's willing to kill an innocent infant child. His ideology of ruthlessness makes him think that leaving his son to live the rest of his life blinded instead of being at least mercy killed is the worse outcome.
And plus, I dont agree with Odysseus being genuine about that apology. What his "apology" boils down to is him syaing "We didn't MEAN to hurt your son, he forced our hand" and that is not an apology. That is deflecting blame, and while it is true that Polyphemus is at fault, deflecting the blame to the son of the god demanding an apology from you is not exactly smart
It's victim blaming. Plain and simple.
25:33 Poseidon asked for an apology, at no point during this song do the words "I'm sorry" leave Odysseus' lips, he's also straight up lying by saying he didn't take pleasure in Polyphemus' pain because he mocks him at the end of "remember them", he revealed his name so Polyphemus knows who blinded him, he called him a beast, and tacked on the "I am your darkest moment" as a blind joke for good measure, everyone has their own interpretation but I don't see anything Odysseus says here as genuine, to me he's just being his old silver-tongued trickster self
also for the next saga, I recommend waiting for anniflamma to finish their animatic of "there are other ways", there are very few animatics of the full song and all of them exclude a very important detail about a scene that takes place in it, anniflamma kept that detail in the wip from a few days ago so it'll probably stay in the final piece as well
It was 43 left alive at the end because he saved Oddyseus and his ship for last, he was gonna kill them all but he wanted Oddyseus to suffer first.
Here on the waiting list✋🏼 Might write something new tomorrow!
But while we're at it- Jay recently annoucend on his platforms that the next saga (The underworld saga) will release on THIS 26th! It's also the end of act 1 so- get ready!!👻
THE UNDERWORLD SAGA WILL RELEASE THIS MONTH??????
@@justanormalpeeps3938 YESS!!!
OMG I DIDNT KNOW THAT YESSS!!!!! I can't WAIT!
@@Fruity_one BUT THAT'S SO SOON, IT FELT LIKE THE CIRCE SAGA JUST RELEASED A WEEK AGO
@@justanormalpeeps3938 I KNOW!
Honestly idk why the animatics show him as so happy when he opens the bag. It might be the way he says it but I imagine him more so as having an attitude than being happy or relieved.
I think the happiness is the sudden hope for escape and survival when otherwise it looked like they were doomed. That's the way I interpret it at least.
that's one reason why i like gigi's more - in it the act of opening the bag is more of a desperate last resort, something he hadn't considered until then :D
Yeah that's my one gripe with this animatic. The rest of it is top notch but that part almost comes across as "lol so random" with how abrupt a change it is from grieving with his head buried in his hands to a wide beaming smile. I definitely prefer the way Gigi handled the ending and it's the sole reason I recommend her version for at least a first time listen/watch, but Anniflamma's is my go to whenever I want to watch and listen to it because the rest is just so good.
I took him dropping the baby as "you're willing to kill an innocent and helpless child, but won't even finish the job with a cyclops who's trying to kill you and has slaughtered your men'.
That also brings more sense to the "sense of false righteousness" accusation.
When I hear "reeks" I think of odor/stench, so that begs the question, what _does_ false righteousness smell like?
It may just be because of my love for Hamilton, but to me, when Odysseus says "All I gotta do is open this bag!" Jay's voice sounds like Lin-Manuel Miranda. Also, Poseidon's "WHAT?!" reminds me of Lil Jon.
For the Circe Saga you have to react to Puppeteer from Gigi! Hers is incredible.
YES
Ximena is also cool I love the puppet strings and shadow transformation details
I think a lot of you in this comment section are misunderstanding Poseidon. Even if Odysseus had apologised, he wouldn't have spared him. He was repeating the lesson Zeus had taught him (with the infant), that Athena had taught him (with Polyphemus), that in order to survive you must be ruthless and merciless. Odysseus' fatal flaw was holding onto his compassion. An apology would not have saved him. Odysseus didn't bother with an apology and immediately defaulted to using his 'silver tongue,' because he saw through Poseidon, not because he was too prideful to apologise. And Poseidon saw through Odysseus, calling his hopefulness naive. Athena also called him naive. Zeus countered all of Odysseus' hopeful suggestions to spare the infant.
The gods know better than the humans in Epic, which Athena passionately exclaimed in 'My Goodbye'. Because in the end, it is being ruthless that gets Odysseus home. I think Jorge meant this to be a pivotal song in Epic, but so many of you are hung onto the idea that none of what happened later would have happened if Odysseus had just apologised. Even Poseidon from myth is petty - an apology would have meant jack, and the both of them knew it.
I agree with most of this except for the bit about Odysseus not being too prideful. Odysseus from Epic still absolutely has hubris as a fatal flaw like the original one from the Odyssey does.
So unless Jorge has mentioned something otherwise and I missed it, I'm pretty sure Odysseus is still trying to use his silver tongue to get out of the situation and thinks he has a shot to, hence doing a non apology like he did with Polyphemus. It acts as a moment showing that Odysseus has a problem with hubris.
I do agree that even if he had genuinely apologized it wouldn't have mattered though. Poseidon was going to kill them regardless.
@@feistsorcerer2251 I won't disagree that Odysseus from Epic shares Homer's Odysseus' pride - I only put forward that pride wasn't the paramount reason why he didn't apologise to Poseidon, which a lot of the people in this comment section think. I believe they're under the impression that Odysseus thought himself too great to apologise to Poseidon, rather than him deflecting because he knew an apology wouldn't suffice.
Odysseus is definitely prideful. He'd have to be to foolishly reveal himself to Polyphemus, even after introducing himself as Nobody. He'd have to be in order to insult a goddess and let her leave, in spite of her assistance and support thus far. Eurylochus basically said in front of Odysseus' men that Odysseus' pride is what will keep killing them, as well as his refusal to admit that his prior cunning only succeeded due to chance. He is definitely prideful - but he wasn't being in Ruthlessness. Rather, I interpret him as (Trying to be, anyway - ) being clever again, and calm Poseidon's clear rage with rationale and reason.
'We hurt him because we had no choice - we didn't want to do it.' in my opinion sounds like it would have a greater impact than, 'Sorry for hurting your son. We didn't mean to teehee.'
Circe Saga.
- Pupperteer / Gigi and Ximena Natzel
- Wouldn't you like / Ximena Natzel
- Done For / Anniflamma
- There are other ways / Gigi and Anniflamma (It's incomplete... there are no finished animations for that song, so you'll have to listen to the animated half and the other half from Mr. Jalapeño´s channel)
"the line between nativity and hopefulness is almost invisible." Line with those strings is SO AMAZING, and I love this animation Poseidon stepping on Odysseus's ship, and all of the callbacks from Poseidon mocking Odysseus, it's so good~ 👏 Also, Ximena Natzel's pupeteer is awesome :D
I love keep your friends close it s one of my favorites song so far BUT I CANT LISTEN TO IT , when odysseys says NOOOOOOOOO !!!!! My heart shatters …. The despair in his voice is just heartbreaking
THE CAPTIONS HAVE COME AT LAST!! Gigi is amazing for doing that fr :) I also REALLY need that so same struggle there 😅😅
They're BOTH great for doing that
i think Poseidon was putting it as "you're willing to kill a baby but when it comes to a cyclops, you hesitate"
Something I noticed when I first heard the song "Keep Your Friends Close". Aeoulus actually says "And if you WIND you'll get what you're yearning". Just thought it was a nice little pun 😁
I recommend watching Gigi's animatic of "Ruthlessness", the one who made the animatic for "Keep your friends close" that you watched in this video. She gets a lot more action from Poseidon and it feels really full of movement and transition through the whole thing. Also, the way she animated the final scene was a lot more in-line with the tone of the moment I would say.
24:00 I always read that last line as "I hear you but I dont have another plan right now, so I need you to not have the crew start questioning as well or all of us could die "
With the desperation in his voice followed by the almost stressed but relieved "thank you" it fits.
One of my faborite consistencies in the entire series is Odysseus' moments of "...what?" Just, confused. Also the foreshadowing of Luck Runs Out, into the "friends turn to foes in rivalries" and some... future knowledge... oof
In the Odyssey, there is a couple other locations before Odysseus meets the wind god. Man eating giants being one of them…but also some people that the crew wanted to plunder. The people had enough support that the crew had to retreat. But they were pretty upset at the lack of spoils when getting close to home. That also helps to explain why they opened the wind bag, thinking it was treasure.
Edit: I think the giants were before the wind god…but maybe they were after. 🤷♀️
The reason why Telemachus is blurred is cuz ody didn't see him grow therefore he doesn't know what he looks like
Poseidon sounds like an angry surfer dude who gargles salt water, which makes perfect sense for him
How did I just realize the parallel in the animatic between Posideon dropping, supposedly his son, while toying with Odysseus’s guilt of doing the same to Andromache and Hector’s son.
Odysseus didn’t apologize. Additionally, “Remember me! I’m the reigning king of Ithaca!” from Remember Them and “Remember me…” from Ruthlessness.
Watch Puppeteer by Gigi.
He hadn’t seen his son for 10 years, he doesn’t know what he looks like. And yes, considering what Odysseus will go through, his death would have been mercy from Poseidon. Oh, and the next saga is Circe saga, so a fellow reader of Percy Jackson knows what will happen.
And I’m not saying that Odysseus not apologizing is the reason for murdering 550 people. I’m just pointing out that he didn’t apologize. They probably would have died anyway.
I'm sure somebody else has pointed this out already, but the reason Poseidon keeps attacking is because Odysseus never actually apologizes. He gives an explanation, a reason as to why he wouldn't need to give an apology, and phrases it in a way that makes him sound sorry, but he's just using his silver tongue again. Poseidon sees right through it.
No, the reason Poseidon attacks is because he'd already decided to.
No apology would have saved Odysseus. Poseidon didn't have any mercy for him.
Sorry, but you are actually so wrong in this! The fact that Odysseus didn't outright apologize could tell us something about his ego and "false righteousness", but it wouldn't make any difference to Poseidon. The whole point of his speech is that you shouldn't be merciful, because mercy can have dreadful consequences. Why would he show Odysseus mercy if he just apologized? This wouldn't make any sense narratively. He would kill him either way, thus "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible". Odysseus is indeed naive if he thinks that any words of regret or apology could save him now.
Drawing the baby parallel is so conniving of Poseidon. (And the animators genius) He’s mocking Ody’s “false righteousness” because he wouldn’t kill the Cyclops who was trying to murder him and his crew but he would kill a tiny innocent infant.
“You totally could have avoided all this if you’d just killed my son” like you killed Hectors child to avoid a scenario like this. Not to mention that Ody frames sparing Polyphemus as a ‘mercy’ when in reality he left him blind and unable to defend himself and stole his easiest source of food. It wasn’t mercy it was revenge for the death of Polities. He wanted Polyphemus to suffer when “ruthlessness” may have been a preferable outcome.
Also he never does apologise - his pride is his mortal flaw.
He brags to a cyclops after being dishonourable - not just by maiming him terribly but remember the lotus wine - he never truly gave Polyohemus a chance (he always planned to knock him out and steal the sheep).
And I think the animator does a good job of showing how Odyssey isn’t being genuine here either. In his little “monologue” about “we meant to harm” you can see the plan forming to use the bag. His little smirks and smarmy “I think I’m smarter than you” face. He is just buying time. Something about the little trill in “we took no pleasure in his pain” strikes me as the musical indication that he isn’t being genuine. It sounds like lying to me.
And lastly I think it’s interesting to note that he never apologises for or sings “I’m sorry” for killing hectors son. Instead he says “forgive me” which is laughable to request in such a circumstance. It was all about making himself feel better.
You make some good points I agree on, but there are two I draw issue with. I disagree that he wanted Polyphemus to suffer as revenge for killing Polites. His entire verse to Athena sounds very genuine, and he's trying to do what Polites would do. Be merciful. That's the whole lesson of the musical. Polities represents mercy and is the philosophical foil to ruthlessness, which is the lesson Odysseus needs to learn as the moral of this story. Secondly, and this is more subjective and may be a result of my social awkwardness, but I do think "forgive me" is an apology, because it requires recognizing you've done something wrong and asking for forgiveness. In fact I'd say it's even more of an apology than "I'm sorry" because the latter gets thrown around so often without apologizing, but it's hard to ask for forgiveness, because that in of itself accepts blame.
@@jlablue3401 yes. I think he feels two things at once. He desperately wants to be like Polites and is genuinely emotional but that is certainly not his entire motivation to keeping the cyclops alive.
I think in his muddled mind he is thinking something like: “if I keep him alive I can be more like Polities and maybe that makes my other motivations less bad” essentially like he can live in a sort of denial about his cruelty if he just does this.
I don’t think he would deny Athena if his ONLY reason was revenge, I don’t think he’s that crazy. There is definitely a strong emotional surge other than anger to motivate him to deny Athena’s request to kill Polyphemus.
I feel like he wants to honour Polites this way even if it’s a bad idea and his love for Polites is why he denies Athena, not his desire for someone to hurt as they hurt him. Ody is certainly a complex man.
I think the forgive me/im sorry point is interesting because I do agree that people throw around “I’m sorry” a lot so it can sound less genuine, but the phrase “forgive me” does more so centre Odysseus in the narrative. “Forgive me - because I will feel awful and guilty if you don’t” vs “I’m sorry - I did something horrible and I genuinely feel bad so I am apologising.”
One is a statement about how you want someone else to feel (because it affects how you feel) and the other is a statement about how you feel genuine remorse.
19:11 “…Poseidon? Is that you, buddy?"
Just the timid fear in your voice slays me, because that’s the correct reaction! 🤣
I just want to warn you in the later sagas animation they don't animate the full song so it's best to listen to the official tracks
well there already are full versions of all songs from circe saga, obviously not the other ones because the album isn't released. Also I only listen to them once the album is on Spotify, so I don't know about the animations for those
Have you seen gigi's puppeteer
He might just need to wait a little bit to react for them to come out. Since you posted this comment the underworld saga already has animatics for all 3 within a week of release, and the Circe saga has a few options for every song now with even more set to be on the way. The last song could do with some other options due to audio quality issues on the animatic that gets a vital detail right, but other than that things are pretty solid.
Poseidon dropping the infant is such a hurtful touch
....not to add salt on the wounds here...but notice how Polites is the main vocal in the backing vocals for the recall of Just a man?
Poseidon is like “you could kill an innocent child but you drew the line on someone who killed your men??? Really? Fuck this guy in particular.”
I loved the Ruthlessness video. It is incredible! But a cool little minor detail Gigi's adds is when Odysseus reopens the bag of winds, Aeolus makes one final appearance as the rest of his men are blown away just before Poseidon sings "Remember me..."
Odysseus has this massive ship, and you're trying to tell me he doesn't have a locked chest in his sleeping quarters that should have a lock on the door? That's how he could prevent anyone from opening the bag. LOCK IT AWAY.
This is Ancient Greece, I don’t know if locks like that were invented yet
the difference between “what have you done😰🥺😖” vs “all i gotta do it open this bag :3🥳🤩😜🤗💅” “WHAT😦” gets me in tears everytime😭
“All I gotta do is open this bag!”
The men who died to Poseidon: You couldn’t have done that before we died?!
No time for consideration, Odysseus storms Full Speed Ahead!
That "Remember me" was another reference to the Polyphemus situation. Odysseus said that to him too.
Fun fact: in your last video when you heard the "storm" motif, and you said something along the lines of "I swear this is familiar", well in "Ruthlessness" when Poseidon says "I mean you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son" you can hear the storm motif, indicating that YES Poseidon caused the storm.
I love “Ruthlessness” My first ever song that I listened from Epic the Musical. Poseidon is terrifying but AnniFlamma did him too terrifying with the horse part and “die”. That’s gonna come and haunt me in my nightmares
Spoilers from behind-the-scenes:
I just realized that Aeolus hinted Thunder Saga’s song Mutiny with the whole “ Sometimes killing is a must” And you don’t really know who to trust part. If you know, you know
Think about this for a second, Poseidon is god of Horses. Odysseus built the Trojan horse as a fake offering to Poseidon to get into Troy and win the war. That alone was a pretty big insult, Poseidon let A LOT slide for Odysseus up til this point. Him maiming Polyphemus was really just the last straw. His appearance in his horse guise here is probably mocking Odysseus's biggest achievement (the Trojan horse) and how even that was only possible because of Poseidon's mercy. One of the best things about this particular animatic.
the reason Telemachus's eyes were fuzzed out was because Odysseus couldn't remember what he looked like anymore and because Telemachus has grown up and Odysseus was not there to see him grow up
technically he didn't apologize but beat around the bush, avoiding an apolog. Great Video !
All he did was victim blame and deflect any responsibility.
I remember when the tiny beings said “it’s treasure, bye bye” i immediately respond with “little shits!” while dying from laughter. The delivery was so funny. Also I love both Gigi’s and Aniflamma’s art
The crossing out of Telemachus' eyes is basically saying that Odysseus doesn't know what he looks like.
Musically speaking this are two of my favorite songs too - I've been kinda quietly following and wanted to just say that discovering you as you react to one of my favorite series of music out there has been a wonderful experience. You're awesome! Please keep it up.
Thanks so much for that!!
"I swear the screen didn't froze, I'm just paralysed with fear." Mortius, 2024
The baby was a mirror representing Polyphemus and Astyanax the son of Hector. He killed A but spared P, which is why he is now suffering.
The reason why Telemachus’s eyes are blurred out is because it’s been so long that he doesn’t know what he looks like 😭also dis is anni daughter and i love your vids so much ❤❤❤❤
Regarding whether Odysseus has taken more than a few milliseconds to consider any action ever: He did, over the first two songs of this series - a very significant decision he spent an entire song figuring out!
The odyssey is still one of the greatest stories, this presentation is very emotional and beautiful. Gotta check the rest out. Thanks for sharing.
“Why are my eyes and my heart and my soul so heavy?” Uhm I dunno buddy maybe because you stayed awake for nine days???
I’m so excited for you to get to the Circe saga, it has my favorite song in the whole musical (“Wouldn’t you like”), and I think you are absolutely gonna adore Hermes
The Eye thing with telemucus during his dreaming in the friends song is probly because he doesnt know what his son looks like after a decade roughly of time passing
i thought id point it out but no one ever seems to notice; 'ruthlessness is mercy upon our -" always gets cut off by 'captain!" so ruthlessness is mercy upon our _captain_. such fun lyricism!
Quick question. Are you planning on reacting to the newest saga when it releases end of April or will you wait until there are animations?
I don’t actually know! I was gonna ask you all that question when I record my circe saga reactions and get the feedback from the community :)
i had this exact question 😭
Your utter shock and horror at “Die” was so good. Like it is for moments like this that I love reaction videos. Thank you for sharing. I already knew what was coming when I listened the first time, so thank you for letting me experience it vicariously through you.
It SEEMS genuine, yes. But then you realize that, 1, he wasn't apologizing, he was making excuses. And 2, if you look closely, in the animatic, as he finishes speaking, you can see his smile grow ever so slightly. In a sly, cunning, and deceitful way. As if he thought "gotcha" JUST as he finished speaking, and had to fight to keep his expression from becoming a full blown grin.
Poseidon realizes this, and that more or less completely seals Odysseus' fate.
One detail I love after that is how, right after, when you get the Poseidon POV shot with him looking down on them, you see Odysseus' eyes fade away from his face, leaving it pretty much blank.
Personally I read this as Poseidon closing of what little humanity he may have and going full God mode. A sort of "Well, I gave you the chance to lighten your punishment, and you tried to weasel me. What happens next is on you, and I'm not gonna feel a lick of guilt over it."
Poseidon wasn’t ever going to spare him anyway. It would’ve gone against his whole philosophy about ruthlessness. He was just toying with Odysseus, giving him false hope and mocking his naivety
@@SlightlyPeeved I never said he was gonna spare him.
@@colt1903 Spare was not the right word to use in response to your comment , but he wouldn’t have “lightened the punishment” either because of an apology, is what I was saying. The hole asking for an apology doesn’t seem to be as important as it’s being made out to be, especially given the musical’s main theme as a hole is ruthlessness.
Fun fact: The name of the person who plays Poseidon is named Steven Rodriguez Jr. The person who plays Polites is Steven Dookie. The two people who represent both sides of the Ruthlessness vs. Open Arms debate at the center of EPIC's theme are both played by someone named Steven.
And I find that hilarious.
Try tea with honey in it for a sore throat!
Also:
Odysseus had 593 people with him when he encountered Poseidon.
... Poseidon killed 550 people.
8:14 gives Aang (from the last avatar cartoon)
22:56 Fun fact - Posedao (Poseidon Mycenaean Greek) his form looks kinda like horse that would run on the waves of the ocean to bring storms and bring the souls of the dead to the underworld
One thing is that Odysseus didn't have to stay awake for nine days, he could've had shifts with Eurylochus. I don't think he'd be irresponsible enough to fall for the treasure scheme.
"Deal"
-Mortius immediately gets mad 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I meannnn am I wrong
@@officialmortius nope, and I think that's the best part 😂
28:24 I love this because the dude threw me off guard I literally said "WHAT???" Only to hear poseidon be as confused as I am lmaooo