5 Electrical Code Lies DIYers Should Stop Believing!
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- There’s a lot of false information about NEC requirements and standards here on youtube. I’ve put together a list of the five most common false claims that I’ve seen and we’re go to clear them up right now. ✅ Get your 2023 Code Book Here: amzn.to/48IEyGY
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Some other electrical videos you may be interested in watching.
🔌 Wire stripper tips - ruclips.net/video/sLkZWObclF0/видео.html
🔌 Electrical Pigtails - ruclips.net/video/K3RIjUnrNTQ/видео.html
🔌 Receptacle Orientation - ruclips.net/video/3AAKEeDcZ34/видео.html
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I'm a retired 55 yrs. Master Electrician and am constantly amazed at the shade tree tradesmen giving poor and dangerous advice on RUclips. Your site is a very pleasant relief using facts and actual code references to point out the correct way to do electrical work.
I too have been in the electrical industry (mostly large industrial work) my whole life either as an electrician or electrical engineer. You have me on years though. I just turned 60 and spent 40 years in the trade.
I hate old crusty electricians that think they know everything because it was written in a document designed to keep people out of the market. Unions are the worst.
Way too many youtubers "dictate" you must do things their way. It's good to have someone who references the written code.
Thank you. Im certainly not perfect but I try to make sure to spread factual knowledge rather than opinion. Although electricians all seem to be opinionated. lol. Myself included.
BM is correct it is not a mandate and this is an old debate. The person who called me out on it was an engineer who was being a dick.
Depending in which city I worked in, I always ask inspector what he wants to see in his city. Saves me a whole lot of headaches.
I ask what you require. The answer is I'm not a teacher. What does the code say and I'm licensed
I have always have a problem with the power of building inspectors, they need to have their wings clipped. Just look at Lehtos law, you do all these things to make one inspector happy and the next one tells you none of it had to be done happens all the time. I had one inspector tell me on an out side door you can replace a window that keeps getting broken or you can put in a solid door , but you cannot put a wood panel in a door that did not come with one HE DROPPED IT WHEN I OFFERED TO TAKE HIM TO COURT AND MEANT IT !! ALL MALE BOVINE EXCREMENT !!!
That has always been my go to! Ask the inspector what he (or she)wants to see. They appreciate the nod to their "expertise"...
@@bobpawtucket1336 Well you probably better figure out sooner than later ... if you engage in pee'ing contests with them . For the most part they will be happy to oblige you and show you where the bear shiots in the woods .
Because their job is to clip your wings if you are not flying straight .
Other than a few odd cases , I can't say I have ever had much problems with inspectors. And most in my experience are actually helpful . Which is how I firstly learned most of the electrical requirements starting out in the jack of all trades handyman line of work I've been in for 40ish years .
Which I have installed nearly 2 dozen meter main service entrance setups and lots of branch work.
Permits taken out by the home owner or somebodies license they knew or general contractor I was working for at the time .
Less is more when dealing with inspectors , and usually it is always better to be there if they fail something rather than having to discern it from their paperwork.
Try and view them as helpful rather than adversarial would be the best advice I can tell you ;)
@@bobpawtucket1336 I'd say engaging in power struggles with an inspector is never a good idea , unless you enjoy those kind of contests and all the friction that come with them .
Try the less is more approach maybe ;)
When I get bored, I find an electrical youtube video and go to the comment section. 😁😁
Funny stuff here 😂
I used to be a jack of all trades. I settled into one trade and have subscribed to a few true tradesmen's channels that are run by knowledgeable and skilled in the trades that I used to think I was capable in. I've learned a lot since then and my biggest take away has been "just because I learned to do something, does not equate to doing it correctly. " Thanks for taking your time to help us Jacks to learn.
It's my pleasure Scott.. This channel is designed to help out people just like yourself. Thanks for watching.
anyone that says they know all, doesn't know chit, best advice I ever got from grandpa and dad
Great short video!
@@BackyardMainetalking about the Wago lever nuts in a wet location, can they be used by themselves when wiring a receptacle in a bathroom? Or do you need to place them in a Wago Gel Box to meet code? Thank you for any advice you can give me.
@@watup110875 Try 30 years as a general contractor. Hands-on That means all the trades.
As a licensed master electrician in Maine - I approve of this message!
33 year general and electrical contractor here. Totally agree with your points. Although not required, all my projects have 12 ga wire for outlets. Also I always have separate circuits for lighting and receptacles. It never seemed smart to have the lights go out if an outlet tripped a breaker. An observation, as I am now in my 70's very few inspectors even try to challenge my expertise. Most inspections last no more than 5 minutes.
Thanks for sharing
I'm similar to you. Most inspections are me giving him info he needs for the certificate and then talking about retirement. Well, he's talking, I'm just dreaming. I too used nothing but 12 for outlets most my career, without question. That was until the great reset of a few years ago and prices skyrocketed. Now I'll give them the option. In today's world I think it's foolish but if they want the lowest price then it's 14 wire everywhere but the exceptions. And BTW, did he miss a coup locations where 12 is required? I didn't hear dining rooms or garage. He did have a 2023 book in the picture but surely they didn't eliminate those, did they?
@@snakeinthegrass7443 I did say Garages but not dining rooms. They are not required in dining rooms and thats not a change. Ive been in the electrical industry to 4 decades and I don't think the code ever required 20A circuits there. I do have the 2023 code and I took the 15 hour update as well.
@@BackyardMaine I apologize about the garage, geez I guess I missed it. Thanks for your credentials but it's unnecessary bc I know a pro when I see one. I've been around for almost 40 years myself. I wasn't questioning your knowledge, I simply did not hear you say those locations and was asking the other poster if you said them or if code changed. (not worded very well)
Anyway, I never looked it up before bc I was always told by coworkers and inspectors alike that dining rooms require 12 wire. Since my book is in the truck and it's nasty outside, I tried my luck on the internet and it appears this is one of those grey area that gets interpreted differently. I was searching some forums and such and it seems to come down to 210.52 (1) which refers to the small appliance circuits serving all receptacles covered by 210.52 (A) Pantry, Dining Room, etc. By default, then, they would also be on a 20 amp circuit. I have never seen anyone or certainly haven't done it myself, and that's pulling ANYTHING off the countertop outlets except other countertop and island receptacles. That's crazy, imo.
So in short from what I've found in a few minutes of searching, that section says the small appliance circuit "must serve" those other outlets in those locations. IMO that means a 20 amp circuit - and from my understanding it's bc of things like buffet tables with hot plates and other meal-related appliances. I do know that even inspectors disagree on codes from time to time. I've been frustrated several times over conflicting interpretations. So if your people pass 14 wire in the dining rooms, great. Maybe it's a geographical thing as well. I'm in upstate NY, near Albany, so maybe they're a little stricter, Idk. I just do what they tell me. So no hard feelings. I sensed you were a little upset with my post and I'm sorry if it came across as offending. Peace and blessings
That is how I, a DIYer, do it. Just makes sense. I began rewiring parts of our 85 year old house after my mother had the fuse box replaced with a breaker panel (by a professional, of course) and breakers started tripping. Left all the overhead light fixtures and most receptacles on one circuit. Was a rats nest to untangle. We're all conduit, so that did make some things easier.
Thank you!! So glad to see someone debunk this misinformation. Too many youtubers ot checking their facts before spreading it all over fhe world !! Subscribed.
Well said! Welcome to the channel.
If you think RUclipsrs are bad, think of all the electricians that have been misled by a poorly informed inspector who "interpreted" the code the wrong way....
I've never done anything with electrical but watched anyway just because I'm curious. I appreciate the concise video and not just ramble on making it 15 minutes long like many other channels do. You get right to the info. Very helpful. 💛
I appreciate that! Thanks for watching.
I'm impressed.. you kept your presentation concise, to the point, and actually gave something informative! Yes on the Equipment listing vs. NEC! As a former compliance officer for Electronic products, I can tell you that Certification was law in the companies I worked for. So, I look for that UL, CSA, TUV, CUL, and ETL marks on what I purchase and use. Great Video, Thanks!
Subscribed! Great video. No mumbling, no long intro asking us to smash the like or subscribe, good graphics, camera in focus, clear sound. Short and informative. Thanks.
Wow thank you and thanks for the sub!
I very much enjoy the straightforward presentation format you use. It's a nice antidote to the wasteful and erroneous content that floods RUclips.
Thank you very much!
Thank you for the videos and the correct information. There is a lot of false info out there and most won’t take the time like you have. Thanks again. Keep up the good work.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching and commenting. 👍
Subscribed! I've done a lot of electrical work as a DIYer over the years and a couple of these were definitely myths I had fallen for. Monday I'm finally getting my 1960s vintage Federal Pacific panel replaced (by a highly recommended, licensed electrician) and have been browsing around trying to get a better understanding of things. So glad I found your channel today.
Awesome! Thank you!
Good to know that my "codes for homeowners" book is right about these 5 things!
Thanks for posting! The misinformation other RUclipsrs upload also puts lives at risk because of fire, electrocution, or other bodily injury.
Excellent video. It's obvious you put a lot of work into the content prior to the filming. That resulted in a lot of great content presented in a concise manner. Thank you.
Much appreciated! Making content is actually a lot of work but it's all worth it when I read comments like this. Thank you.
Interesting, how I learned all of this back in the 80s, and it still hasn’t changed.
I still have all of the rules from back then in my head.
I still do a lot of electrical, and I always go toward the side of safety for ANY project.
I’ve had a lot of arguments over the years, and always win with the Safety First argument.
When in doubt, over engineer it!
Works in plumbing and carpentry, too!
Well said John. And by sticking to the NEC Standards, one is more likely than not, to perform safe work that will pass inspection. If someone sites the code, tell them to show you where. Make them prove it. Well done John. Thank you.
Thank you my friend.. I have asked for the code reference a few times but either they don't reply or reference the wrong article. Like article 81.. lol
Good, clear video. The NEC is a minimum standard, it is not a design guide. As consulting design engineer, I've come across some inspectors who are retired contractors who have been doing things wrong for years.
Thank you.
I've seen the exact opposite of what you described electrical engineers that think they know it all when it comes to the NEC 40 years of hands on in the trade is more viable than four years of book learning
How about the "certified home inspectors" who never worked a single day in the trades? They cause more problems than anyone.
@@kd9856 One reason I retired early was a school project where none of the electricians read or spoke English. So none of the drawing notes were followed and the work met "NEC minimums" but not the specific State requirements for educational facilities shown on the design drawings.
Great, concise content. I was an electrician 20 years ago, having given up the trade to pursue other options. Let's face it, I was tired of pulling wire in an attic when the outside air temp was 100 to 107 with 70 to 90 percent humidity. I specialized in re-wiring whole houses during flip renovations. Seeing the changes to the NEC is amazing
Thanks my fellow electrician. Crawling through attics is a nightmare.
THANK YOU FOR BEING CLEAR AND PRECISE
You are so welcome! Thanks for watching.
Thank you for the attempt to point out the difference between code requirements and installer preferences. Being a former code inspector I have always been infuriated by the "experts" providing misinformation about the code requirements. I personally think some of this school of thought originated by way of uneducated inspectors thinking they know better and put their own spin on the requirements. The trades cave into these "requirements" rather than face a failed inspection since many of these items do no actual harm.
That's an interesting point and may be a contributing factor. Since I stared this channel I have learned that there are a lot of electricians that are confused about code requirements. I think many just go by what they were told by their superiors or maybe inspectors as well.
Had a City plans reviewer fail my plans on an industrial project. Said all the CB sizes exceed the wire ampacity, duh, they were motor circuits, had to educate him on the Code for motor circuits.
I have run into similar issues in the past. lol
That would fail in europe too, thats why they use "type D curve" circuit breakers for motors.
@@bladeoflucatiel we use those as stand alone breakers in panel boxes we build. if it's a premade panel 120/240v 3 phase it uses standard breakers which don't have different curves .
Very nicely presented John. I only have one pet peeve that wasn't mentioned. The use of the word "Illegal" to point out a code violation. That would mean I could be charged with a crime and receive a fine or jail time! AHHHH!! " Non-compliant" would be proper and even then everything is "subject to the interpretation of the authority having jurisdiction" Meaning, You do it the way the AHJ wants it regardless of what the code says.
DIYer. These videos are very helpful. Love having such an experienced and calm voice to guide me. Thank you sir.
Thank you so much.
Data-driven, to the point, efficient with your words. Subscribed! Well done and thank you.
Awesome, thank you!
Good content John! I have been blessed with an Electrical instructor as one of my best friends, and now my son is a licensed Journeyman. I know most of the code, but not all. I don't argue with folks about electrical; I simply ask if they are a licensed Journeyman like my son is; the rest is a moot point. My most recent inspection of my new shop building got a passing approval, with a smile by the inspector, he pointed out one upgrade I might think of, but other than that - "Good Job" was his final comment.
That’s awesome. Good work. I’m retired now but I spent my whole career in the electrical industry as a licensed electrician and eventually an electrical engineer.
Number 6 is the 15 amp duplex receptacle on a 20 amp circuit.
Great video, thanks.
I graduated from electrical trade school 50 years ago back in the old county, I'm not licensed in the US 🇺🇸. I learned a lot from your videos. Thank you 👍
That is awesome! Thank you.
You do a great job of getting to the point. Thanks!
I appreciate that! Thanks for watching.
I'm a non electrician that has done a fair bit of wiring over the years and I worry about code compliance all the time when I do it. I was happy to see in the video that I didn't believe "the lies that DIYer should stop believing". One area that I remain confused about is what cable type is required for garages?I just finished a job where I added a lot of new electrical features to our garage and I used MC partially because I think it's better for garages where the wires are exposed and partially because I thought it was a code requirement. Mostly I kept the wire in the stud bays but there were a few places for convenience we ran the wire outside the stud bays near the top plates.
There seem to be a lot of factors on the wiring type required in garages
1. Attached vs. Non attached
2. Kept in the study bay or not
3. NM vs. MC vs EMT
It always amazed me how some building inspectors, with little or no actual training, were surprised when I would quote or quickly find the NEC reference on circuits they said were under/over amperage. I would always split the lighting/outlet circuits with outlets 20 amp and lighting 15 amp on separate breakers.
This would be very helpful, if I were wiring my house. Unfortunately, I'm wiring my boat, prepping it as a liveaboard. ABYC requirements are very different than NEC.
For one thing, you never use solid wire on a boat. Sometimes the toughest part of the job is knowing which standard applies.
You can find a code restriction against a cord with dual male ends, i.e. plugs on both ends.
I must say I’ve never heard of any of these misconceptions; though that may be because I’m an electrician and learned through the code. I’ll ad that some devices may be bared by municipal ordinance even if allowed under NFPA 70, NEC; for example all of the devices we hardwire must be UL listed.
Excellent content! Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
My pleasure! Thank for watching
Clear and concise presentation! Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Wow all of these were great! I followed along with my 2023 NEC book, with newly installed tabs, man that was a workout placing all of them. To be honest it actually makes it harder to get to sections of the book...oh well. Anyway, not only are your videos very well edited, your way of speaking and camera presence is top notch. My wife and I live in a modular home, manufactured in 2004. As far as I know all of our receptacles are 14 gauge with 15 amp breakers. I could be wrong, I need to pull the panel cover off again, but I'm pretty sure the only 20 amp breakers are the ones I installed. That does become a problem when you try to run two heating appliances at the same time. For instance our tv stand electric fireplace the front room and a hair dryer in the master bathroom. Trips the breaker every time, also why would they put two rooms on opposite ends of the home on the same circuit. I wonder if a 12 and 20 setup would allow that to operate. Last year we pulled out a large garden tub, and I added a couple of 20 amp circuits and receptacles since I knew we would be running a freezer as well as a second fridge in that area. I am totally subscribed to this channel. I watch a lot of Electrician U, but you could become my favorite YT channel. Thanks for all your hard work, I know its really time consuming to put these videos together including editing everything.
Thank you so much. I love reading comments like this. It makes all the hard work worth doing. Dustin over at Electrician U does a great job with his videos as well. He's a very knowledgeable electrician. I have been an electrician and then an electrical engineer for my whole career. I'm retired now. I started making videos for a hobby and now it's become more of a business. lol. Welcome to the channel my friend.
Good video, sounds like "discussions that may have come up with inspectors". NES is basic framework document with many exceptions listed. Intent is to do best practices that keep the next guy alive. In TX, very little training required before Electrician on their own. My top two worst finds: 2) septic pumps wired w Romex. Needs water proof type of insulation on conductors. 2) Stoves not wired with 3 cond+grd. Old style 220 v 2cond+grd wiring short lifes the newer smart ovens or stoves. Thank you.
Refreshing to see a video that is specific and truthful!!!!👍
I appreciate that!
I would love to see more of these!
I can think of several "codes people should stop believing" - even seasoned electricians!
I have been hearing that. I am going to keep make code videos since they are performing very well on the channel. I don't know if you saw my latest video about a new code change for 2023.
@@BackyardMaine no I did not... I will look for it... I'm currently studying for my license I'm on 2020... your video came up ... good stuff!
not sure what's made it to your list but I was shocked no pun intended about three-way switch requirements...
About to help with some wiring at my local makerspace, your vids were a great, very quick and concise way to check what I needed to know about code. Thanks!
Awesome.. thanks.
Finally a well informed correct explanation of current n.e.c. well done sir !!!
Thank you..
Thx for the clarification. Sparkies can really get into it over code.
The house I live in has the upstairs bathroom light and plug, kitchen light, range hood fan, downstairs bathroom light and outlet, kitchen light, range hood fan, patio light, dining room outlet, and three living room outlets all on one 15 amp breaker. The landlord doesn't care that it often trips. I've tried to tell him that just knowing the circuit is overloaded means his fire insurance is voided. He just laughed. I have three months left on my one year lease and am looking for a place to move to.
Good idea to move. Regrettably, his insurance will likely not be voided, however. Many, many fires are caused by human error, stupidity, or cheapness, and are still likely valid claims. The insurer would have to know that the circuit was overloaded, and then find out that the landlord knew it well ahead of time. These are both hard to determine after a fire.
Every year at Christmas there are dozens of house fires caused by "octopus" outlet multipliers for light strings on skimpy extension cords. Most people know or could know that this is hazardous, but the resulting fire is likely a covered claim.
Even if it is overloaded, that's what the overcurrent protection device is for - so it can't start a fire. I mean after all, you can at any time overload any outlet in your house, and that doesn't magically void your insurance.
That's not only dangerous but just plain stupid.
Codes change and what was allowed yesterday may not be tomorrow. If your circuit is overloaded then the breaker will trip, no need move and make a scene.
If it was grandfathered in that way and was allowable at one time, you may be out of luck. Lots of older houses from the 40's and 50's only had four or six circuits total. If it was a modern hack job done without a permit though, you may be able to withhold paying rent until it is fixed. You will have to do your own research to find out what your rights are here.
Very useful video! Thank you!
Thank you. 👍
Thanks, I was one of the folks who believed the pigtale lie. I hadn't taken the time to look it up, but I can certainly see where folks would make that mistake since multi-wire circuits are not well understood.
I'm going to make a video about multi-wire branch circuits because you're correct that many people don't really understand them or all the requirements for using them.
Required or not, I still find it a bad idea to run all your current through that dinky little tab on the side of the receptacle. I was advised against doing that by an instructor and have removed at least a couple receptacles that were hooked up like that and showed heat damage. One to the point of failure.
@@Wrencher_86 if you are seeing the tabs get that hot, something else is wrong. Likely, the circuit has been significantly overloaded. (space heaters, coffee pots, microwaves, and hairdryers are common culprits). I would ask if they have been resetting the breaker a lot. It could also be a manufacturing defect; many builders opt for the cheapest junk. I would also be skeptical of the overcurrent device. The tabs should handle 20 amps continuously, even on 15-amp devices. (mind that you can't legally pull the total rating for over 3 hours without derating.)
Anyone who buys the cheapest receptacles at the big box store is rolling the dice.
Service loops are code to have now here in Canada. We have done them for many years now, regardless. They have saved a lot of headaches over the years by having them!
Thank you, from a retired master electrician. There so many crazy ideas and beliefs in this trade.
No doubt! I'm retired now as well and I love it..
Well done, right to the point, direct to the point. Cheers!
Thank you..
You are amazingly helpful! Thank you!!
Thank you... Happy to help!
Wow.. 2 of these I myths I believed because of others on RUclips (the double wiring, and the outlet up/down orientation). Thank you.
Glad it helped. Thanks for watching.
John, I’m a retired teacher. It’s nice to listen to someone who knows what their talking about!
Thank you.. I spent my whole career in the electrical industry both as an electrican and an electrical engineer. I used to teach electrical safety and LOTO as part of my engineering responsibilities. I love teaching but it's not easy. I have a lot of respect for teacher. Now, I try to teach with youtube videos. lol
Wow, if I had moved any faster I would have broken the sound barrier by moving so fast to hit the like button!!!! Because number one was the biggest argument I had with another electrician I was working around on a job site a while back!!! Thank you for this video!!! 👍🤜
Wow, thanks! Glad it was helpful my friend.
John, great video. A few comments though. You mentioned local codes. You're right. In LA city, pig tailing is required and 14AWG is no good. And, you are sometimes victim to snooty inspectors. The inspectors can require whatever they want. And, I should mention that the NEC is written by the NFPA, the National Fire Prevention Association. Great video
They can NOT require whatever they want. If they are “interpreting” something a certain way, sure, they can say they want something done that way. Buuut, An Inspector can't just come onto a site and start “requiring” things to be done the way they want it, all because they like it that way. There's a code for a reason. I have been involved in a couple different projects where the inspector was failing a 4-way inspection on one project and another inspector failed the C of O inspection on another project. Both times the Inspector was requiring a totally bogus way of doing things just because they thought it was “better”. When reasoning with the inspectors failed to work all while saying that their request was not written out in the IBC. We had to get the head Building official involved, which worked out in our favor both times. It probably goes without saying but, you don't win any friends by going this route. It comes down to picking your battles like always.
Yes for sure and thank you.. I have taught classes on the NFPA-70 and NFPA-70E..
@@savage6394individual cities absolutely can have their own electrical code that is stricter than the NEC. It's also how ALL residential wiring in Chicago and most of its suburbs is required to be in metal conduit.
Now, an inspector can't just make stuff up. But if the city's electrical code requires something, it's required, even if it's stricter than the NEC.
Thank you for dispelling some of the mis-information out there represented as "code" by many content creators on RUclips. I see all too often, and DIY'er just watching for guidance take it as gospel
I see it more in the comments on my videos but I’m sure there are creators that get it wrong as well. It’s not an easy book to navigate if you don’t have much experience.
The issues I see with the NEC is that old work never has to be upgraded. Houses built 50 or 60 years ago were wired with maybe 10 or 12 circuits and still function today. Even though we are using more electrical items today we are drawing less current due to modern electronics. If I turned everything in my house on I might draw 50 to 60 amps on a 200 amp service.
MN Master Electrician Great video it's nice to see someone get it right. Keep sending out the great content
Thank you my friend.. Much appreciated.
The way I understand it regarding pigtails at a receptacle is the receptacle would have to be listed as a splicing device. It has nothing to do with the NEC. You would have to contact the manufacturer of the receptacle to find out if their device was listed for splicing.
You kind of right which is why the statement about pigtails being required is false. Also all UL listed 120v receptacles sold in the US are listed for pass through. As a matter of fact 15A receptacles have a 20A pass through current rating.
Excellent video, and I agree with all 5 points!
I do have one observation, but I don't have the NEC text:
Service loops - I'm assuming it states a 'maximum' of 12" for staple (secure)?
If for example you staple a 12" length of cable loop at 4" from the box, you would then have 8" of slack...
[you could have around 16" of slack if you stapled 18" at 2" from the box, if you wanted to be absurd]
(I don't like the loop illustrated, as it can twist and kink pulling it into the box; I like a flattened 'S', but then, I don't do new installs)
Mr K L
That's a great point.. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, great information.
Glad you enjoyed it.. Thanks for watching!
Did a lot of wiring and problem that sometimes arises with making pigtails they add to the box volume and often create a violation for not having a large enough box. Have used spec grade receptacles and when the customer ordered a last minute add on had to run a third 12/2 NM to an existing wall case then use approved spec grade receptacles that each screw can accept two wires under the pressure plate ( one on each side ) and only use a wire nut for the ground wires.Will use the green wire nut with a pass thru hole to save a wire that could make you add to cubic inch space needed .
Lol, I caught flack in one of my videos for saying the receptacle is upside down. Working in a hospital as an electrician for 45yrs I was used to putting them ground up as metal cover plates are used and when a plate screw came loose and fell out the metal plate would hang on the ground instead of the hot/neutral prongs. Seen it happen many times even though all receptacles are checked as per code periodically! Never hurts to go the extra mile when safety is a concern.
This is why I always lookup the codes myself, to make sure that I am following code. On top of this I research local codes as they may have additional requirements.
Great plan my friend.
I’m a master electrician her in Maine. I agree 100%. Thanks. I hear the #12 thing all the time.
Where are you located? I think Ive heard of your company. I retired a few years back from Texas Instruments in South Portland. I was their facilities electrical engineer.
@@BackyardMaine newport. But nice worked all over there. Did a pizza place over near McCauley high school back in 06-7? And the Reebok store in Freeport years ago. Usually don’t go much past augusta
Ok! My love of 12 gauge wire to receptacles is a preference. But, please, can we stop wiring ceiling lights and wall receptacles on the same circuit? Plunged into darkness while running power tools….
I recommend DIYers purchase the NEC Handbook. It has the complete NEC in one color of print and explanations, examples in a different color. Also includes pictures and drawings. Therefore is about twice as thick as the NEC. Some of the NEC is confusing and having something written just a little different helps. Also a second source of information is helpful when dealing with someone that does not understand. I purchase the handbook every other cycle.
That's great advice..
Yeah, but unfortunately spending $280 for a huge printed book, just to replace an outlet is not really a reasonable ask for most DIYers.
It actually rather pisses me off that these are codes that are fundamental to doing work safely and in some cases could actually make the difference between a safe environment and a deadly hazard that could burn down a house and/or kill a family member, yet they're stuck behind several-hundred-dollar paywalls (and even then only provided in hard-to-use printed forms with no search ability, etc), pretty much guaranteeing that lots of the people who really _should_ be reading them will just not be able to, or won't want to.
There really should be a better and cheaper way for non-professionals to have access to this really important information, IMHO.
The series of Code Check books available at lumber yards is a great resource and reasonably priced.
@@foogod4237AFAIK, there is a PDF version, but it's also behind a paywall.
Source: I found such a file on the High Seas.
Thanks for the truth, and let it set others free.
Thank you, as a class 1 and 2 licenses holder in GA. for 25 years I too become frustrated by some peoples "Shared personal interpretation " of the N.E.C. it often makes me question the overall effectiveness of the reading skills taught in our public school system and our community colleges. :-) L8R G8R
I have actually told some commenters who insist they are right.. "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you".
@@BackyardMaine
Very true!
As with a drukard, you can always tell a dummy, ya just can't tell em much!
:-) L8R G8R
So, I'm new to this. Does this ever happen - an inspecting agent requires something even though it is NOT required by the NEC code. Has that happened to anyone? How do you handle that?
I hear it happens but I have only had it happen to me once when I was working a job in Vermont. I appealed to the state inspector and he said I was good to go. The local inspector was not happy though. It would have cost me $1000s to fix so I pushed back.
The local authority having jurisdiction is the final say provided he is following local ordinance. If he tells you something that is beyond what local ordinance requires you will have to go to the local board and argue your case, where if you cite local ordinance required you will win. Local ordinance can be more stringent than national code. It cannot be less than national code.
@@nooneyouknowhere6148 not true. a state is not required to adopt the NEC in its entirety. local codes can provide exceptions to NEC. case in point, in my state, it is acceptable to install a non GFCI protected single receptacle behind a refrigerator, washing machine, or other fixed appliance, if it is located in such a way that the appliance prevents ready access, and it is labeled as being not GFCI protected.
@@kenbrown2808 that used to be standard in the NEC.
I worked as a Sr. Electrical Design Engineer for a very large electrical contractor. Sometimes over 1000 electricians. I got calls often from electricians on jobs stating that they just failed an inspection. After drilling down to make sure what was done, and what the inspector said, there are a few methods to resolve it. First, call the inspector and request a written statement of the violation. Call the inspector and read the appropriate section of the adopted code and give your understanding of that section and “Why”. Get out your code book when told of the violation, and look it up with the inspector. If all else fails and there is a Chief Inspector, call them and discuss the install, the inspectors statement, the code section, and read your point to them. There are numerous situations that could be told, but would take too long. If you do your homework, and you are absolutely correct and have proof, you will win every time. Just “Make Sure” you are correct first!
I approve of this Video, and I Approve of your hat Sir! Thank You for Your Service!
Thank you kindly.. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
@@BackyardMaine You're Welcome!
“Into The Wild Blue Yonder!” 1980-1986 USAF WX Recon
My local inspector was code book crazy!
He measured the distance between staples and forced installation of cross supports to staple to!
Even though the branch had a 40A maximum load, he demanded a GFCI/AFCI 50A breaker on 6 gauge wire!
6 gauge is roughly what you want for 40A "power transmission" (an EV charger, for example), or if the cable needs to be derated due to being bundled. Were either of those things true? GFCI/AFCI ... if it was for an EV charger, then GFCI is needed somewhere on the circuit as of 2020 (it seems). Or a garage or kitchen and a few other places.
@@junkerzn7312 The line was a 220V buried feeder, in MN conduit, from the main breaker panel to a subpanel in the garage. The garage had it's own grounding rod, everything in EMT with metal boxes. He also made me move a counter outlet from one side of the stud to the other side of the same stud to meet separation distance requirements.
GFCI protection of the feeder serving a sub-panel cannot be defended using the 2023 NEC. That either is a misunderstanding between the two of you or a very bizarre and unnecessary local amendment. That stated, pretty much every branch circuit in the garage, including the EV charger, is supposed to be GFCI protected at the branch circuit level.@@Digidoc316
Thankyou, John!
My pleasure.. Thanks for watching.
Grampa had his own code for his shed, just wire nut together and wrap with plenty of tape, no box needed.
I have seen that and worse. I actually rewired a home after a fire that has started where someone connected zip cord to a 20A circuit using wire nuts and tape but no box. The zip cord fed an outlet for an electric heater on the bedroom. Luckily nobody was hurt.
Another thing to be aware of is that not every state accepts the most recent version of the NEC into law when it comes out. The service loops are legal in this version but aren't in older versions and might not be in the next version.
I posted a pic of what state have adopted what version of the NEC. But the 18” max cable length between the last support and the box is nothing new
@@BackyardMaine actually, it is very new code wise. It used to be required to be a 12" length of cable to the box. How we used to have to get these service loops is between staples with the one closest to the box being tight enough that it supports the cable but loose enough that you could slide it through the staple.
@@BackyardMaine The "within 12" I remember from older code cycles, but 18" max cable length was first included in the 2020 NEC. My 2020 book is highlighted as a change from the previous code. I think the length between the box and last support was previously undefined. I don't have an older version to look back at though. Good video.
@@michaelduy9055 Hmm, you may be right. My memory isn't what it used to be. I have a 2017 code out in the shop. I'll check it out and get back to you. Thanks.
@@ianbelletti6241 You're probably right. I have an older (2017) code book in the shop. I'll have to check. My memory isn't what it used to be. lol Thanks
I hang out at an electrical contractor's forum. Every once in a while, a newbie will come on seriously asking about ground up vs ground down. This immediately triggers a food fight in the comment section that makes the Civil War look, well, civil. All in good fun, of course.
Nice hat! Thanks for the information.
Any time! Go USAF 🇺🇸🇺🇸
Finally a RUclipsr that knows what he is talking about.
I was removing the 14 gauge wire out of my garage, House built in 2017 in North Carolina, replaced it with 12 gauge, and upgraded to a Combo GFCI/AFCI 20 amp breaker. I was taken by surprise that a house built in 2017 had a 15amp service non-GFCI in the garage and it passed inspection. I am the second owner and I had an inspection performed on the house before the purchase. I had a house built in Georgia in 2015 and every circuit was AFCI or GFCI protected and it had to be a 20amp circuit in the garage. I learned a very important lesson about states and the adoption of the NEC codes.
The issue is not all electrical inspectors have equal knowledge of the code and when you hire a home inspector to as a contingent to buying a home they are usually not as knowledgeable as a trained electrical inspector and they will miss things like a 15A non-GFCI circuit in the garage.
Under the NEC there are three locations where AFCI protection is not required in dwelling units: bathrooms, outdoors, and yes, garages. No need for a DF breaker on the garage circuit, although it might be more readily available than GFCI-only breakers in some areas.
@@steveloux4709 This is exactly the case here. I can find old-school breakers and Dual Function only Breakers where I can shop as a homeowner. I just checked Amazon for Square D QO, I can get GFCI only but pay more than I would for Dual Function
I think we were talking about GFCI rather than AFCI protection. GFCI protection is required in garages.. @@steveloux4709
@@steveloux4709 I thought bathrooms still needed AFCI in modern code but it appears I am mistaken. However there are definitely other places where AFCI isn't needed, notably unfinished basements and attics. 210.12(A) shows there they _are_ required and the omissions are where it's not. But it should also be noted that if the circuit has any devices (such as a switch) in the living area it needs AFCI even if the lights themselves are in area where they do not.
And unless they changed it only receptacles in a garage need GFCI protection. No need for a GFCI breaker, a standard breaker and common GFCI receptacle work just fine.
Nice video. Now do a video on the parts of the code that are unnecessary boiler plate that can be ignored without any compromise in safety or reliability. (I'm an electrical engineer, and I have met and worked with some of the IEEE guys who write the code, and I can tell you straight up that most of those guys have never touched a wire in their life. They are in their 60s and their useful life as engineers is over so they attend IEEE meetings and make up issues to "solve". )
I know what you mean. I was an electrician for over 20 years before moving into electrical engineering. There were some engineers that I knew that had no concept of the practical application of what they learned is school.
I understand the point that you are making but maybe you should rethink the way you are presenting it after acknowledging that the NEC and the Fire Code are 'written in blood '(as is said) and should be respected and followed. Just as unforseen conditions/ possibilities lead to tragedy and were afterwards backward engineered into Codes so we must humbly honor the Code admitting that we can't possibly know the genesis of every hard learned lesson built in to these codes. Yes, sometimes we see what looks like ill-advised new code or (worse) Manufacturer- influenced code but many times corrections are made in the next cycle. Despite misgivings I would definitely agree with on some things in the code, I think it wise to promote the NEC to other tradesman as a duty to abide by rather than anything less.
Personally when it comes to pig tailing outlets, I think the method is just better practice as the advantage it provides is if the outlet fails in the future it won’t kill everything else down stream
Would like to see a demonstration and your opinion on installing a GFCI in older homes with no ground. Will it actually help with electric shock or in helping to protect sensitive electronics.
Great Idea for a video. Yes a GFCI will still provide protection with no ground wire. It won't provide any protection for sensitive electronics though. For that you need a surge protector. They can be installed as a whole house unit of you can use them at the point of use.
Another great video thank you
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
You could make a whole series of videos on this topic! Like, how many receptacles per circuit in a dwelling unit. Many many grounding comments.
That's what I was thinking too. I want to see how this one does to see if there's enough interest. So far it's preforming quite well.
@@BackyardMaine If you need some more ideas, I can make a list as I think of them. Let me know
@@KevinCoop1 I have a pretty long list now but sure I'm always open to ideas from my viewers. Thanks Kevin.
Great video!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it..
No application here. In plumbing they told me the label of the pipe had to be faced out so it could be read if the material type had been inspected. Like non usa type that wasnt would not pass inspection.
Certain situations I've worked in like hospitals did require ground up installation of receptacles.
Yes for sure but its not called out by code even in hospitals. Check NEC article 517. The reason ground up is common in healthcare facilities and their building specs often reference IEEE std 602.
A+++ Video!!! Thanks!
Glad you liked it! Thank you.
I often see on Reddit "15 amp receptacles cannot be used on 20 amp circuits" yet code allows this. In fact it is sensible! This way a large air conditioner with 20 amp 5-20P attachment plug cannot be plugged into a multi outlet circuit. (Those appliances need a dedicated circuit)
The 15 amp receptacles are designed to handle 20 amp pass through current, and the UL labeling sometimes confusingly says rated 20 amps on the 15 amp 5-15R configuration.
I mean it's partially true. You can't have a single 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit. If you have a standard double 15a receptacle (or multiple singles) it's fine.
Plug strips are often used as face-up receptacles on countertops. This was a fatal mistake for 33 passengers and 1 crew member on the dive boat Conception, where wet dive gear was being recharged.
A simple equation to remember: Saltwater + plastic + electricity = fire. And that applies to any water when it has something dissolved in it.
U.L. has minimum spacing requirements for high voltage circuit board traces. But when the surface is contaminated, those can still arc over.
I recently bought a new build in Michigan. The garage outlets are on a 15 amp breaker with 14ga wire. I'm not certain about the laundry room, but I believe it is also the same as the garage. The kitchen outlets and lights are on the same circuit. I thought those had to be separate circuits?
Sounds like someone didn't know the code unless it's a really old building.
@@BackyardMaine Nope it was built last year. That's annoying. I love how this stuff somehow passes inspections.
@@deeyadeli1435 A home built last year in Michigan should be following the 2017 NEC. That version definitely requires 20 amps in the garage. In my 1996 house (in Massachusetts) has the receptacle on the garage wall is the same shared 15 amp circuit as the bathrooms. It's stupid but I presume it was code-compliant only 30 years ago.
I'm looking at my copy of the 1981 NEC code on my bookshelf as I watch this.
My first code book was 1984. I think I still have it somewhere.
@@BackyardMaine1984 here too.
I learned to wire my own house under the watchful eye of a 3rd generation electrician from Lewiston Maine. I hung boxes, drilled holes and pulled wires during the day and he came by after work to inspect, explain my mistakes and discuss the remedies. One of his hard rules was 12 awg to all electrical outlets because you never know what someone might plug in, in the future. Another was lighting and outlets on separate circuits, ALWAYS. A third rule was never use cheap devises or the push-in connections - always bend the wire to fit around the screws and in the correct direction. There were many, many other things he taught me that I’ll never forget and I’ve passed on to others but the thing he’d say every night after finishing the free beer I gave him for his time was “now you know enough to be dangerous”. No truer words ever spoken. 😂
Thanks for the. Idea. Great info. And go Air Force!
Thank you.. 🇺🇸
I have several wall warts which require ground-down receptacles, without which they tend to fall out, creating an unsafe condition.
Hopefully this can be answered.. So for the past 2 years my outside outlets have been tripping the breaker even after replacing all the outlets, well i finally figured out a week or 2 ago that one of the outlets i replaced was faulty itself and was causing the problem, of which i have now THANKFULLY resolved.. So my original plan was to install 1 or more GFCI outlets but upon trying the box isnt deep enough because of the extra size of the outlet and the wiring so i just went back to a normal outlet, its unfortunately a recessed box thus my problem.
Now the thing is, my house was built in 2000 and when it was it never had any outside GFCI outlets (until i got a pool) but it had a GFCI Breaker to handle all that.. So how would i go about resolving the recessed box issue? would simply a deeper box fit in the current recessed place or would i need to have some kind of work done?
Note: Its POSSIBLE it would fit if i pushed back some of the wiring into the wall but i didnt want to risk doing that.. So any thoughts?
You could install a GFCI breaker and use a standard receptacle, install a deep box bits that’s going to be a bit of work. Leviton make a slim profile GFCI receptacle which is about the same depth at a standard one. That may be the cheapest and easiest solution.
@@BackyardMaineYeah id rather not have to go with the box route lol
The outside outlets are already under a GFCI Breaker but id rather a gfci outlet have control over it than always having to mess with the breaker if something happens.. I'll take a look at the Leviton, thanks :)
Right on, good video.
Glad you enjoyed it.. Thanks for watching.
well done. thanks for sharing
Thank you..
One thing that I feels like it should be a requirement is that inspectors tell you exactly what part of the code this or that violate. But "this is against code" and you have no way to know why beside looking through the full code plus state plus city amandements, and whatever other special cases that may occur, whouln't be the responsability of the electrician, but the inspector that claim it violate it.