This is what happens when your EV doesn't have a heat pump
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- Опубликовано: 13 дек 2022
- This is what happens when your EV doesn't have a heat pump
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#vwID.4 #rangetest #heatpump #evscompare #softwareupdate #evprice #evsales #evcars
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My heat pump in my tesla model 3 is a gem!!! It's excellent on range barely burns the miles warming up the car!!, 7 days now finally charging it, it's like a gas powered 350 mile car no joke 👍🏻, this is with temps in the 30s, 20s
There is no range anxiety in the Netherlands, where I live. There is a charger at every corner of the street. I am enjoying the comfort, head up display and acoustic glass of my ID.4.
I currently have a 2023 M3 RWD. I was a bit reluctant going from AWD all the time as I live in central Canada and we get lots of snow and extreme cold temperatures here. I threw a set of winter tires on and I have to say I have not had any issues this winter. The heat pump has been great. I’ve driven in -35C so far and heat has been good. As for the range, when driving around 0C it’s great. Still not bad down to around -15C but after that it really takes a hit. I haven’t crunched the numbers but I’d say when it’s around -25C to -30C it’s easily a 30-40% hit if not more. Also to note I don’t keep the heat cranked it’s normally around 21C in cab with fan at around 4. Doing longer trips and better preconditioning would help winter range I’m sure too. It’s also a bonus you can preheat in a closed garage and won’t die from CO poisoning.
My Tesla heater emits heat immediately. I remain super impressed.
Same... I'm in North Carolina, which doesn't have particularly "extreme" winters, but when needed (usually around 30-40 deg F) I might run the heat a little bit... No problems even down into the 20's, but I haven't tested it much below that.
what ev doesn't? I cannot imagine that. my seats also heat up or blow cool my bottom right away, on top of the AC.
@qilu2004 My LEAF didn't, my Volt didn't
@@ConstanceCox The volt is like having no heat on any short trip.
It’s weird as my Tesla (2021 SR M3) in freezing temps only loses 10% or from .2 wh/mi to .22 wh/mi.
That’s of course with keeping it plugged in and preconditioning before leaving.
Actually Sam, your EV DOES have a Heatpump.
Heatpumps are standard equipment on the BYD Atto 3.
Why if its only useful in winter?
Sam very seldom read comments, to bad.
I also read that BYD EV do have heat pumps unlike other affordable EV
Yep checked, ATTO 3 uses heat pump. Essentially reverse cycle aircon, heats and cools as needed.
Uh am I missing something here? Your chart shows the Mustang MachE has the same 30% loss that the VW ID4 did but you did not mention that?
Just a thought. When was an ICE car tested comparing winter and summer fuel consumption?
When it's cold -10c to -40c a lot of people preheat their cars or the cars are plugged into car heaters or block heaters to keep the oil warm. At minus 40c people never shut off their engines when they do their shopping or grabbing a coffee or getting lunch.
BYD Atto 3 certainly does have a heat pump
The ID cars are optionally equipped with heatpumps in Europe it costs about 2000 Au$
In Sweden heat pumps is standard in all ID models.
and they help a lot in terms of consumption
Also in Canada
I can confirm, our Jag typically reported 260ish miles in 10+ degrees, when we went down to -3, we saw as low as 240ish miles. 292 book calue.
Not had Skoda Enyaq long (bought in this winter). It's estimating 200 miles when the 77kwh useable book value is about 330 miles. I think it has poor wheel alignment though.
Heat pump is an optional extra on the ID.4
For 2023 model, you must add the heat pump in canada for the ID.4
I order mine in oct 21, will get it in oct 23. 2 years wait.
There are several ways to generate heat - fire, crude but effective, I.C.E. vehicles use it via combustion. Next is electrical heat. EVs have lots of electricity. Then there is pressure - yes, squeeze liquid in a container and it heats up FAST, and offers finite control. If you store that pressurized heat in a thermos, you can access it at any time. Of course the opposite of heat is cold. Cold is air missing heat. A pressure system can control that as well. With little electrical energy a pressure pump can cool the interior while heating the batteries in prep for charging. TESLA has a PRESSURE pump.
My ten year old ICE car came a nice surprise. The climate control will switch between heating and cooling as needed. And before there's engine heat available? A wicked strong electric heating grid allows it to blow full hot air, the instant you start it up.
Big difference from an old four banger that usually took five miles or minutes before any heat could be produced. But the big classic Detroit V8s got toasty in thirty seconds, just from engine coolant.
A chinese media recently did a winter test for mainstream evs sold in china. Byd steamrolled every competitors while Tesla performed just slightly better than the industry average.
My EV6 AWD with set 21° interior at 0 to 5°C and of course HP consumes now instead of 16,3 kWh around 2 to 4 kWh more on 100 km. The Tesla Y Long Range is about equal with 20,5 kWh so both deliver more or less good results. Besides you have light on and windshield wipers working etc. Every ICE consumes also more in winter time so we cannot complain!😜😎
Geez, even our little Renault Zoe has a heat pump. It's not brilliant in really cold weather, but it doesn't affect range much either. The Zoe is a 10 year old design and it uses a heat pump, there is zero excuse for any new EV not doing the same.
Ok just gonna say it . Front wheel drives do amazing in the snow. I've been driving front wheel drives in the snow of west Virginia (its it's own state not the western part of virgina) in the twisty mountain roads sense I was 16 so 30+ years dont knock a front wheel drive in the snow you just have to know how to drive them and I'm sure a front wheel drive electric would be even better because of the weight distribution.. all I wanted to say love the show
the reason front wheel drive is better then rear wheel drive (for ICE vehicles) is because the engine is 8n the front and thus that's a good bit of weight on the drive wheels whereas if it was rear wheel drive they wouldn't have much weight 9n them. however with EVs the weight is split 50/50 (or biased toward the rear) so it makes more sense for it to be rear wheel drive plus in general rear wheel drive handles better
Sam, thanks so much for the video, thorough and professional as always. It's as if you're responding to an SOS from the 60% or so of the US hit with a deep freeze. I learn so much from your channel; you fill a large education function that we just aren't getting from the dealer as we drive away with our new EV.
I’m probably going to lease an ev next year. I live in a temperate climate so the cold/hot effects on battery performance is something I thankfully won’t have to worry about unless when on holidays.
As much as I absolutely love driving my BMW i3, even I've been shocked as to just how low the range has dropped in the recent sub-zero temperatures we've been experiencing here in the UK.
Over summer, I was regularly getting 140+ miles per charge (94Ah battery pack).
On typical, 'cold' winter days, that's dropped to around 110-120ish.
But, oh my goodness, in these -1 and -2 °C temperatures, I've been struggling to get 95 miles...!!
Based on those figures, that'd be a 32% reduction... 😲
Curious but how to the batteries heat up enough to allow a charge?
Why would anyone buy that when it costs as much as a Tesla buy is worse in every way imaginable
Tesla's do hold their range in cold weather better than most
Heat Pumps are bi-directional air conditioner units. They rely on transferring heat energy from one place to another. In Winter the earth is cooled and that displaced heat is put into the home. In Summer, they reverse and heat the earth while cooling the home. They do NOT generate Thermal Energy. They MOVE thermal energy from one place to another. Teslas GENERATE heat by compressing fluid to a specific pressure that equate to a specific temperature - AND move it - it's a pumping system. Very little electricity is used to compress fluids. LOTS required to electrically heat fluids.
That's also a heat pump , it contains a system that compresses gas to increase the temperature , the earth doesn't get warm enough to heat a housein winter (at least not uess you dig very deep) , so the thermal energy also needs to be compressed into higher temperature , and the tesla system must decompress the liquid after some time , and then warm it up , because it gets to lower temperature then outside after decompresion , it does not GENERATE heat , it also takes thermal energy from air into the liquid and from liquid to interior making the liquid colder than air outside meaning it can get "warmed up" from air Changing temperature from -30°C to -20°C is still warming up , temperatures that we consider cold and freezing still have a lot of thermal energy anything less cold than absolute zero has at least some , but the bigger difference between input temperature and output temperature the more compressing is needed so more electricity is needed
I did order ID 4 for my mother with the heat pump and it arrives next week. I do drive the model 3 LG since 3 months and love it.
I have Bolt 2LT an have been impressed with the output that seems to kick out heat or cool in no time..
I have a volt and the electric heat literally is useless. The engine has to run half the time just to keep up with the cabin heat. This means the bolt is not ever going to be on my shopping list. I'll be waiting for the equinox ev.
The BYD Atto 3 HAS a heat pump, Viking so does the BYD Dolphin.
Love the “estimated” range, complete BS . The Jaguar is nearer to 50% from what I have heard & Audi is not much better.
@The Electric Viking so Why was the ID4 last and not the Mach E? Why are they not tied for last? Did all tests have preconditioned cars?
I just slow a bit and use recirculation as much as possible with my Kona Electric but would like to have a heat pump
Leaf was one of the first to adopt heat pump tech.
Do tell. Why was the battery passively cooled then?
The 2023 ID4 had a heat pump as an option. All 2024 will have one. The 2024 also has a 10% range increase due to better engine efficiency. In Canada that is.
8:34 Front wheel drive is to prefer on icy roads. Not as fun as a back wheel driven car, but more stable on the road.
Why did you not mention the ford. It had 30% less range too. Was it an oversight?
Anti VW maybe...😕
If you view all video of this channel there is a kind of biased opinion against European cars (and the opposite for Tesla and Asian constructors ). Once you know this , videos are quite interesting overall 😁
My Kia EV6 has a heat pump as an optional extra, at about £1000, if you just look at the energy saving it will take 10-15 years to save me £1000 of electricity.
If you need every bit of range in a very cold climate, then yes, it is very beneficial. Where I live it is rarely below freezing so I declined the HP.
I get 270 range in summer 240 in winter on the AWD version with 20 inch wheels.
I live in northern Ohio near Lake Erie and front wheel. Drive is much better in the slippery conditions than rear wheel.
Do the BYD cars have one very hard to find any specs on their website
Old S and X didn't have heat pump either. The new generation should be much more efficient in winter.
Sadly, the availability of transportation qualified reversing valves has a rather dramatic lead time of at least 3 years compared to off the shelf availability before Covid. This is impacting Aptera and likely other companies as well. The higher r value of the Aptera bodies will help compensate for some of this comparative loss.
I love these tests and charts! According to the chart at 70 degrees the ID.4 beat all the Teslas or is that estimated? In winter according to the chart the ID.4 beats or equals three Teslas. The ID.4 gets a little over 175 miles and the Model Y looks like it gets maybe a bit over 185 miles. Similarly equipped the 24 Model Y is $2771 more than the ID.4. As far as charge rates the Model Y 250kw ID.4 175kw and of course the Tesla charging network which will become available to the ID.4. Yes the 24 ID.4 does have battery conditioning. I own a 23 ID.4 Pro S AWD which I paid $29,395 for with 961 miles on it. It hasn't had a single issue in the additional 1500 miles I've driven.
I have had a VW ID.4, Chinese version in the UAE NOT covered by VW Warranty as its imported via car dealers not the Authorized Agents. VW has clearly stated it will NOT provide any support to the car owners. Yet its very successful in UAE, selling thousands and generally in ME region without VW support. Some of Infotainment system do not work (lane assist, maps, adaptive cruise control, etc.) yet people buy it because of price differential between TESLA model 3 (nearly USD 15-20k more expensive) and availability. So thje Chinese sales of VW includes the ones being sold in ME !!!
I live in the Macedon rangers north west of Melbourne and I have had a model 3 sr+ for 3 years now it doesnt have a heat pump I can confirm that in the winter I will use the 25% more energy that during the summer I know this as I drive the same route to work each day at the same speed the only thing that changes is the weather.
Just as a comparison my 2014 Jeep patriot awd 4 cylinder auto 6sp gets around 23/24 in town in the summer and around 19/20 in the winter......Would love to trade it in on a EV awd some day.
Your new background lights look really good Sam.
Thanks!
I live in Canada, waited 26 months for my 4X4 ID4. dealer just got it, but guess what. NO heat pump. VW ID4 are being shipped to Canada without a heat pump due to semiconductor shortage.
I will not buy the car without heap pump. ( 40% loss of range , its crazy and we have a cold winter )
last year VW did call me , to say that for Canada I must buy the heat pump for 1500$ , and now they are trying to sell the car without one .
Heatpumps are extremely ineffective in very low temperatures. 40% loss in range in cold temperatures is perfectly normal. I get that in winter in Sweden with my Volvo XC40 with a heatpump
The heat pump is why ponied up an extra $48/week for my Polestar 2 which I have on a lease to own plan. It might not be the best vehicle but it’s still pretty good.
Sam, thank you for your regular updates in the EV industry. Quick question?
Does heat pump add significant value in warmer climate?
I live in Melbourne, Australia where we don’t reach sub-zero temperatures (Celsius).
I’m considering my first EV but heat pump is optional with a high price tag! Thanks in advance
ID 3 and ID 4 delivered in Norway come stock with heatpumps. However, VW decided to pay those owners 285 euros as compensation for its lackluster performance in cold weather.
I have an ID4 GTX, it comes as standard with a heat pump. Maybe it is not included in other countries though. Heat is immediate.
Does the heat pump just heat the passenger compartment or does it also heat drivetrain components?
20 to 30°F isn't even that cold if you are one of the millions who live north of the Maxon-Dixon line in the U.S. It's downright balmy if you live in Canada. Do the same test at 0 or -20°F and let's see the results there. The "waste heat" of ICE cars is of tremendous value in northern winters.
Range range always about range. How about comfort and reliability? In my experience, my egolf heat pump compressor started making loud noise due to unbalanced fan. In colder weather, heat pump is useless and weak and makes loud vibration and pumps out little heat
Exactly that. Heatpumps are extremely ineffective in very low temperatures and noisy when they kick in.
G’day Sam, just an FYI, atto3 specs list a heat pump
Thought the new y and 3 long range had 82 kw ternary battery's with 75 usable.
What year model x did they start using heatpump?
Love the ever changing picture of you on your right behind you (your right!). :)
Sam mate. Your EV does have a heat pump! If you're talking about the BYD Atto 3 that is. Please explain.
I understand that Volvo XC40 Recharge is going to be loosing the heat pump in 2024 by looking at the international site. Have you heard anything?
It’s not just the EVs themselves but also the charging stations that have problems in cold weather.
Id 4 drivers say, when the display freezes, you need to press the on / off button and hold for 40 - 60 seconds and then it will reboot
Heatpumps are extremely ineffective in very cold temperatures. So I’m not sure what the fuss is about.
I would never buy a new ev without pump, it's a must.
Sam, the Atto 3 does have a heat pump. Why do you think it doesn't?
VW perform badly in cold weather range due to their software using a lot of power to heat car and battery. Newer software reduces heating loads and I assume range. Tesla probably have this sorted. Maybe VW should just copy what a Tesla does.
New Niro EV now does not have heat Pump. Heat Pump in ID3 is a extra, like in new e-niro
VW ID cars do have heat pumps as option.
I looked very closely at buying an EV and was turned off by the broad lack of a heat pump and the impact on range.
Please see my post on this
kona ev master race reporting in!
Bit confused here. The model 3 in the chart you put on screen shows 17% loss but you were talking about 22%. Did I misread something?
Is it possible to retrofit an electric car with a heat pump? I would love to see someone install after market heat pumps for the chevy Bolt.
Yes a heat pump is only a compressor and a couple of radiators/heat exchangers. Problem is it’s going to be hard as all car manufacturers make cars in the cheapest way possible so their designed to go together as efficiently as possible but coming apart not so much. Typically the heating systems are put in 1st so you’ll end up taking a vast amount of the car apart to fit it. Not worth the effort, just go buy another car.
Are heat pump systems more reliable? Are they cheaper to repair?
What is that picture of behind your left shoulder ?
Most EVs have heat pumps because they have air conditioning, what most don't have is a reverse circle heat pump and rely on heated elements to heat cold-air for the cabin comfort. If a car has battery precondition they have a reverse circle heat pump. Tesla EV scavenger heat from the motors and battery to heat the cabin.
I’m pretty sure they used a model 3 with a heat pump. The heat pump came with the model Y and then got implemented in the model 3. So I bet they used a model 3 with not heat pump just like they used the older X and S without them.
Great info
Don't heat pumps have a relatively narrow range of effectiveness that fails as temps fall below 10 degrees F?
no
Nope
Yes, they have to be designed specifically for the temperature range you are using them in. As a vehicle example the heat pump in the new 2023 Outlander only works down to about freezing and then goes back to engine heat below that.
The heat pump on my house works down to about -25C (-13F) but it uses a huge amount of energy and only outputs about half the heat that it does if it was 0C (32F). It's still far better than a regular resistive electric heater at that low of a temperature though, with a COP of about 1.8 there.
Heat pumps that I'm familiar with depend on a refrigerant like freon to change phase or boil and condense into liquid. That becomes next to impossible at really cold temps where your needing heat the most..... In a temperate climate I can see it's value but not when it's below 15 F?
In my experience heat pumps work well down to about 0C. Below that they need a heat source on the evaporator side to maintain efficiency. Typically this is an Ohmic heater that demands a lot of energy. In a well designed system waste heat from the motor or batteries can be used instead.
My Tesla is so good I leave in garage and only drops one mile
Not sure the relevant factor here is the heat pump. Probably what’s more reliant is that IC vehicles lose significant efficiency in low temps as well.
I have a pre-heat pump Tesla Model 3 that I’ve taken out to Jackson, WY many times in both summer and winter. Jackson is quite cold in winter, as is the trip through Idaho and Nevada. Typically between -10 and +15F. Prior to the Tesla I did this trip in a 2017 Prius Eco and prior to that in a VW Jetta turbo diesel.
What I’ve found is that the Tesla loses 15% range in these temps, which is actually slightly better than the range loss in my IC cars. While a heat pump Tesla would be better, the fact remains that even with resistive heating the Tesla is no worse than a similar IC vehicle. Oh, and the heater in the Tesla is much better than the ones in my IC vehicles because it doesn’t require the IC engine to heat up…which takes forever at -10F. In fact most of the IC drivers in this part of the world start their cars 5+ minutes before they drive and leave the cars idling while going into stores. By comparison I can warm up the cabin of my Tesla in the garage while plugged in and can just shut it down while shopping. Driven the way most IC drivers do in these temps, fuel economy is truly abysmal.
Conclusion? The oil industry hit piece cited failed to compare relevant stats. While EVs lose range in cold temps, so do IC vehicles…so the whole argument is specious.
Once diesel engines are up to normal operating temperature, both engines and transmissions, they are just as efficient in icy conditions as in temperate ones. Since diesel is injected by volume and the volume of diesel shrinks in cold weather, the potential power output is actually higher when the fuel is cold. Not sure whether that is as true of common-rail injection as it most certainly is for mechanical injector pumps and injectors.
Does Hyundai have a heat pump?
The heat pump is more efficient producer of heat then a resistive heater so you loose less range in the cold. Buy one serious problem with the heat pump is in window defogging performance in high humidity conditions. It is dangerously dysfunctional in these conditions. A capable winter car like a Volvo will clear the windows immediately any conditions because it runs the air conditioning and the heat simultaneously to dry the air as well as heat it. While the heat pump can both heat and cool it can't do both at the same time. So the defog performance is fatally doomed. Even full blast you just circulate warm saturated air which can't dry anything. You need a roll of paper towels at hand for defog emergencies. I have been driving Teslas for 8 years and have owned 4 of them. I've seen a lot of improvements, I hope they fix defog one day because it is dangerous as it is. JY
To do that you just have to run the path of the air across the cold side of the heat pump and then over the hot side to warm it up, exactly like how an ICE runes it through the AC and then to the heater. It would just be less efficient since you need to cool the air and warm it, but still better than if you had AC and a resistive heater.
Live in Florida, cold?
I am not sure recurrent has enough data points to make these conclusions.
Heat pump in Australia not as importatant
Volkswagen should not have exposed it's genitalia
My resla is doing greeeat in Winter! I had 18 Kwh!!! on 100 km, at -3 Celsius! greeaat!
In the norwegian winter test the BYD Tang has the best result with only lost of 11% from the WLTP, and the Tang do not have a heating pump.
BYD EV supposedly have heat pumps BYD atto 3, dolphin, seal etc have heat pumps
Tang has a heat pump.
So BYD EV all have heat pumps its confirmed.
One of the *affordable EV* that comes with a heat pumps, that's a plus
No, BYD Tang has no heating pump and I own one of them myself.
I searched net on *arenaev site BYD Tang 2021 spec listed to have a "heat pump"* the model was announced in 2020, May;
However Tang has few variants, Hybrid etc
And may be different platforms with Hybrid and may be early models isn't the new plateform e3.0
The Hyundai Kona is way better than any Tesla !!!
VW better start to get their act together and start fixing their issues with EV's, or they will quickly lose even more market share than they already are.
I bailed on a VW and am extremely glad I did.
Colleagues VW just shut down at 11% battery left in cold (for UK) weather. They were told that it was too little charge in the battery for cold weather - VW lies strike again.
Only thing Tesla dorsnt have id a spare tire/jsck.
ID4 Has the best heatpump in the market. A lot better than Tesla's.
I wish the ID buzz had better specs. Easily my favourite EV, but the specs are shite. When are Tesla making a campervan or VW making a better one. Man one can dream...
Enough of the elitist censorship!
"Theoretical real world." Jumbo shrimp. ;^) 🍤
Alyssa Milano: 😳
The largest problem with heat pumps is they do not perform as well as resistive in very cold climates generally. I would be interested in how well vehicles with heat pumps heat cabins in colder climates such as Norway, Sweden, and Canada in the winter. I would be very interested in tests performed. Otherwise for more moderate climates, most vehicle manufacturers could move to the more efficient heat pumps if they can truly heat cabins well enough as interior comfort does matter to most spouses and children.
Tesla uses the NAME heat pump, but the technology is a pressure control system with heat storage. See my comment as to its operation. Tesla does NOT use a conventional heat pump...
@@r.a.monigold9789 how is that different from heat pump ?
@@matejmotuz108 I've posted a new Comment that details the differences. Sorry if I was vague before.
People have tested the heat pump in newer Teslas all over youtube. Bjorn Nylan has done a few as well as many others
Heat pumps for houses are incredibly popular for home heating in all the countries you listed. They do lose efficiency as the temperature difference that you are moving gets wider but the one on my house still works fine down to -25C (-13F).
Test a Kia Niro EV, it is king with this. It will beat a Tesla
I heard heatpump will not work under -20 C?
It depends on the heat pump and how it's designed. Many cold climate heat pumps sold in Canada are rated to -25C or -30C. The one in the 2023 Outlander actually only works down to about freezing and then switches back to engine heat.
id4 or 3 wont be better in the next gen there updating the looks and ading an amazing slider light.
there not ading butons or turning nobs. not replaging the stearing blob glueon and the basic horrorshow of an infotainment system will remain the same. and all that for an amazing low price of
500-700€ per month if your willing to keep it for 8 years
Any one has got the right to be Anti EV, Since I Am Subsidizing Them By Force! What subsidies go to carbon fuel cars? None! But we pay for the subsidies on the tax on petrol!
This is not true - Oil companies get enormous subsidies in the billions every year - fuel prices would be higher otherwise.
What a load of biased nonsense. The FF industry is subsidised by a HUGE amount to keep gas prices down at the pump despite the tax.
The figures are crap , leaf has no heat or cooling of battery and these figures are just inaccurate
Not sure why you singled out the VW over the equally poor Ford in this video, or indeed the Chevy which is ‘estimated' to be even worse than those two.
Reviews on ecological nightmare waiting to happen. We should go to hydrogen fuel cell cars using ammonia as fuel which is hydrogen and nitrogen and it does not have to be under high pressure no infrastructure changes and ammonia is more naturally occurring they can GMO algae to produce more ammonia greener it is even in your urine
Until they can come up with a less volatile and toxic battery this is not a good path to go down so hydrogen feel so cars with ammonia is the way to go so they will not go that way.
@@1ntwndrboy198 Fuel cell vehicles are shockingly inefficient, they simply can't compete on cost per km, and they are so expensive that the few manufacturers of them lose money on every unit they sell. Add in ammonia, which is a lethal chemical if spilled (typical results of a spill: www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6904a4.htm ) and you are barking up the wrong tree. A few seconds of googling would tell you that ammonia fuel cell vehicles will never, ever happen.
seems to me, that directing some heat vents to the battery area, along with perhaps some sort of "cold" mode, could be implimented with keeping the battery from getting too cold and at an optimal working temp. "cold mode" could have some sort of insolation factor put into it... like perhaps after the average climate temp drops to X degrees, you simply clip on an additional cover that has insolation on it, to the battery. to help it maintain heat.
seems to me, just a few minor things could help with this issue pretty easily, without having to put a heat pump into it for cold climates. donno. just my thinking about it some atm
7:06 lmao