Moffat is genuinely obsessed with the concept of being "meta" about Doctor Who. Nothing can be straightforward. Every single thing needs to be an exercise in playing with the concept. I was sick of it then and I'm sick of it now.
14:10 Personally? I don't find the whole 'humans were the real monsters' thing derivative or repetitive like you're claiming it is, because we're seeing multiple different *types* of that trope. In Smile it was: Humans tend to act irrationally, and lash out when threatened Thin ice it was: Some humans are only concerned with themselves and gaining power and will trample on everyone just becuase they can. In Knock Knock it was: Some people are so depserate to cling to what they have, they are willing to go to extreme lengths to do it And in Oxygen it's not *humans* are the monsters it's: Capitalism turns human life into a number and if you can't meet the bottom line you are expendible. So I feel this whole 'repetitive' thing you're finding issue, is only an issue when you are looking specifically for that one thing, which I get with you because you clearly feel its an overdone trope, so you'll notice the negative more than the unique way its done each time to feel fresh.
My feelings exactly. It's the usual with a tried and true trope. Yes the trope itself is same, but it can be executed in different ways and have different outcomes and meanings to the audience. Basically yeah an Apple Pie is an Apple Pie, but HOW you make the pie is important. It determines how it tastes and what impact it has on you. And I'd say all the "humans are real monsters" TASTE very different and have a different impact.
Absolutely, especially because it's not like human villains only have a few archetypes, while I don't have the evidence to back this up. The majority of villains in stories are humans or explicitly human-like. The 'Humans are the real monsters' is just shifting from a monster to one of the endless ways human villains can be done.
I absolutely love the clash between Bill and the Doctor when she confronts him about his attitude towards death. It's one of my favourite Doctor-companion moments and definetly my favourite Bill scene (mabye apart from some Cyberman-scenes in the finale). It also reminds me a lot of a scene in Classic Who with my favourite Doctor Tom Baker. In the story "Pyramids of Mars", Sarah-Jane confronts the Doctor much like Bill here and Clara in "Mummy on the Orient Express". After one of the supporting caracters is killed, Sarah-Jane says something like "A man just died!", shocked that the Doctor won't let her grieve. But he replies "Four men, Sarah", reminding her of the bigger picture and that he does care but he has no choice but to continue in order to prevent more death. He showed Sarah-Jane and also the viewer how he is less limited by human emotion but that he is nevertheless always aware of people dying around him. This scene from "Thin Ice" is a very nice reimagination of that old scene
I like the Suttcliffe punch, not because of the message, but because it's funny. And I think a lot of other shows and movies forget about that. It's entertainment first, and education second, at least in fiction
Also it would have been a fun Easter Egg if there had been 11th Doctor and River Song lookalikes in the background for one of the Frost Fayre scenes (probably one of the early ones so the characters would have a chance to leave instead of viewers just questioning why they aren't helping).
@@dylanburton4955 I think both episodes specify that their respective event as taking place on the last day of the last frost fair but I'd need to double check. Also I'm not sure how far across the Thames the real frost fairs were so maybe they were just in a completely different area of London.
@@Jedi_SpartanWorth noting 12 would probably be very careful to avoid bumping into his past self so being physically as far as possible from the date would be a given.
How DARE you underplay the death of Pete, he was *the* single greatest companion of Doctor Who and then he’s so unceremoniously slaughtered all because he stepped on a bug that caused the meeting of his great x21 parents… How could you just gloss over that!
I know they do a lot of human antagonist here, but they do all feel somewhat different. Smile is about human collective anger, oxygen is more about the capitalistic system, knock knock is a scared boy taken to extremes. I do enjoy Sutcliffe here, he's such an unrepentant b@stard that's quite entertaining to watch and to get his comeuppance
Also, humans can be a monster doesn't feel derivative if you start seeing for what it is: the arc of this series. A lot of people say this series misses an arc, but this is it.
I enjoyed it and still do. I enjoyed Bill's story in the episode. I understand your points about the past too. I enjoyed the Doctor punching the antagonist, very satisfying. It is fun I agree, though I would have giving it a B, but I understand your reasoning
I love the verbal confrontation between Bill and the Doctor. He's so unapologetic about what he's done and really puts Bill's morally superiority...on ice...
Honestly on this review I realized I like this episode a lot more than I remembered. Yes, all your critiques are on the nose but the character work and breezier feel despite the depth of the issues explored makes it a nice comfort watch. Hell I find the pacing issues worse in Smile than here. I would have put it at a B for series 10- Never a skip, but not a standout.
Sorry but him blowing up the creature to eat the people makes total sense, the creature eats more people, and it shits more fuels so he makes more money
I don’t think it’s been explained this way in the show, but the Doctor’s rationale (particularly 12’s) is exactly the same in concept to “put your own oxygen mask on before helping kids”. It sounds heartless and unsympathetic; but if you, as the more capable person, lose consciousness or die then there’s no way the kid is going to be helped , now or in the future. The one who is best able to fix the situation is the one crucial to survive. Now imagine being in essence the one capable to save everything all the time! The Doctor must ensure their own survival before anyone else’s. That’s why I occasionally have a problem with how flippantly they sometimes take the self-sacrifice option, which often hurts the story for me.
While I personally love THIN ICE (a literally and figuratively chill Victorian story with a not-so-bad kaiju and the Doctor unambiguously punching a racist in the face, all my personal checkpoints), I can see where you're coming from with the overuse of Victorian times in British television, like how all American time travel or period works in 1980s fiction almost always centered around the 1950s, and the even more annoying overuse of the 1980s in modern time travel or period works here in the states.
Set design is great, the monster is cool but used to forward yet another “the real monster is man” and the Series 10 addendum “the real monster is man AND CAPITALISM” Despite this, Evil Buisness McGee is a decent villian and the Doctor and Bill’s moral conflict is incredible.
The Doctor's speech about not having time for outrage is why Ncuti's Doctor doesn't work; he doesn't have _time_ to cry because people are counting on him.
You know how like... each season will have that one Doctor Who episode... where it just like... "yeah, this ain't it" I wanna say Love & Monster for Series 2, but I know for a fact that many people will defend that episode, as that is not bad, just weird. So for Series 10, the episode that "ain't it" for me... is The Eaters of Light... cause let me tell you... that... I can't tell you anything, cause I don't even remember what happen in that episode...
I think what’ll end up happening is that we’ll have something similar to Series 5 A strong Series made up of weaker episodes. Seriously, there’s a lot of good individual moments that appear so consistently throughout the series, but overall there aren’t many standouts aside from a few. Still, I just really love Series 10, a lighthearted Series that slowly descends into the most depressing reality one could imagine
I don’t know. I think The Pilot, Thin Ice, Oxygen, Extremis, and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls are pretty fantastic. Then again I also think a large chunk of Series 5 is outstanding.
I can see the kids and villain plot as undercooked, but I just have to roll my eyes at criticism of pacing. Nothing wrong with the pace of the story. I feel like that's become a critique people float to sound like a posh reviewer rather than an actually statement that means anything. Like Ford Prefect trying to rate Vogon poetry and overdoing it. I loved Thin Ice, and I think I gave it a 7 or an 8 on IMDB, I'm too lazy to go check.
I know it’s got a lot in common with The Beast Below, but it’s a favourite of mine for several reasons. Firstly Peter looks stunning in his Victorian outfit. Pearl looks so beautiful too. And the punch is hilarious. I think there’s so much to love in this episode.
Cassandra was human. The 'consortium of banks' were humans. Van Statten is human. The point isn't that 'humans are the real monsters' or that 'space monsters are misunderstood' any more than it ever was, and that's just a bad take on this series.
The mix of an episode in the past and one in the future series opener isn't just for new companions, it's a rule for every single series of doctor who since 2005. They're all like that.
as a longtime black dw who fan i literally skip shakespeare code human nature/family of blood because it makes me too uncomfortable. but this episode ill gleefully watch knowing 12 punch’s a racist
When I was a kid I used to hate it when kids died in things, especially Doctor Who, but now I’m a cynical adult who believes children should be seen and not heard, I love this episode even more 😂
Keep the Series 10 reviews alive!
www.patreon.com/c/harbowholmes
Having four straight “misunderstood monster” stories almost feels like this is how Twelve becomes convinced Missy can be good
does Knock Knock HAVE A misunderstood monster ?
@@lasseehrenreich5502 Well according to him so I just went along with
Wouldn't be surpised if that was the intent.
Moffat is genuinely obsessed with the concept of being "meta" about Doctor Who. Nothing can be straightforward. Every single thing needs to be an exercise in playing with the concept. I was sick of it then and I'm sick of it now.
@@lasseehrenreich5502
Mother?
14:10 Personally? I don't find the whole 'humans were the real monsters' thing derivative or repetitive like you're claiming it is, because we're seeing multiple different *types* of that trope.
In Smile it was: Humans tend to act irrationally, and lash out when threatened
Thin ice it was: Some humans are only concerned with themselves and gaining power and will trample on everyone just becuase they can.
In Knock Knock it was: Some people are so depserate to cling to what they have, they are willing to go to extreme lengths to do it
And in Oxygen it's not *humans* are the monsters it's: Capitalism turns human life into a number and if you can't meet the bottom line you are expendible.
So I feel this whole 'repetitive' thing you're finding issue, is only an issue when you are looking specifically for that one thing, which I get with you because you clearly feel its an overdone trope, so you'll notice the negative more than the unique way its done each time to feel fresh.
My feelings exactly. It's the usual with a tried and true trope. Yes the trope itself is same, but it can be executed in different ways and have different outcomes and meanings to the audience. Basically yeah an Apple Pie is an Apple Pie, but HOW you make the pie is important. It determines how it tastes and what impact it has on you. And I'd say all the "humans are real monsters" TASTE very different and have a different impact.
Absolutely, especially because it's not like human villains only have a few archetypes, while I don't have the evidence to back this up. The majority of villains in stories are humans or explicitly human-like. The 'Humans are the real monsters' is just shifting from a monster to one of the endless ways human villains can be done.
Literally all of this
It's the episode where the Doctor punches a racist... it is great: end of review.
I absolutely love the clash between Bill and the Doctor when she confronts him about his attitude towards death. It's one of my favourite Doctor-companion moments and definetly my favourite Bill scene (mabye apart from some Cyberman-scenes in the finale).
It also reminds me a lot of a scene in Classic Who with my favourite Doctor Tom Baker. In the story "Pyramids of Mars", Sarah-Jane confronts the Doctor much like Bill here and Clara in "Mummy on the Orient Express". After one of the supporting caracters is killed, Sarah-Jane says something like "A man just died!", shocked that the Doctor won't let her grieve. But he replies "Four men, Sarah", reminding her of the bigger picture and that he does care but he has no choice but to continue in order to prevent more death. He showed Sarah-Jane and also the viewer how he is less limited by human emotion but that he is nevertheless always aware of people dying around him. This scene from "Thin Ice" is a very nice reimagination of that old scene
I hate how this episode killed of pete and just glossed over it like he never existed like he didnt save the day in the last episode
I like the Suttcliffe punch, not because of the message, but because it's funny. And I think a lot of other shows and movies forget about that. It's entertainment first, and education second, at least in fiction
Exactly. What's funny is that, now we have a black man in the role, the Doctor is suddenly completely helpless in the face of racism.
Also it would have been a fun Easter Egg if there had been 11th Doctor and River Song lookalikes in the background for one of the Frost Fayre scenes (probably one of the early ones so the characters would have a chance to leave instead of viewers just questioning why they aren't helping).
It could have been simply that 12 and Bill were there at a different point but I can’t remember if River specifies when abouts they went
@@dylanburton4955 I think both episodes specify that their respective event as taking place on the last day of the last frost fair but I'd need to double check. Also I'm not sure how far across the Thames the real frost fairs were so maybe they were just in a completely different area of London.
@@Jedi_SpartanWorth noting 12 would probably be very careful to avoid bumping into his past self so being physically as far as possible from the date would be a given.
How DARE you underplay the death of Pete, he was *the* single greatest companion of Doctor Who and then he’s so unceremoniously slaughtered all because he stepped on a bug that caused the meeting of his great x21 parents…
How could you just gloss over that!
Why did you have to say “7 years on”, your making me feel so old
Did you think you could sneak one second of Chase U past me?
I know they do a lot of human antagonist here, but they do all feel somewhat different. Smile is about human collective anger, oxygen is more about the capitalistic system, knock knock is a scared boy taken to extremes. I do enjoy Sutcliffe here, he's such an unrepentant b@stard that's quite entertaining to watch and to get his comeuppance
2:31 Is anyone going to point out the elephant in the room…
@@SpaceFluffDW That was a Gorornian Husky
Also, humans can be a monster doesn't feel derivative if you start seeing for what it is: the arc of this series.
A lot of people say this series misses an arc, but this is it.
I enjoyed it and still do. I enjoyed Bill's story in the episode. I understand your points about the past too. I enjoyed the Doctor punching the antagonist, very satisfying. It is fun I agree, though I would have giving it a B, but I understand your reasoning
I love the verbal confrontation between Bill and the Doctor. He's so unapologetic about what he's done and really puts Bill's morally superiority...on ice...
Honestly on this review I realized I like this episode a lot more than I remembered. Yes, all your critiques are on the nose but the character work and breezier feel despite the depth of the issues explored makes it a nice comfort watch. Hell I find the pacing issues worse in Smile than here. I would have put it at a B for series 10- Never a skip, but not a standout.
Sorry but him blowing up the creature to eat the people makes total sense, the creature eats more people, and it shits more fuels so he makes more money
19:20 Isn't it also similar to the Star Whale dilemma in The Beast Below with Matt Smith?
I would argue even more similar.
I literally thought that was the comparison he was going to make until he said Kill the Moon lol
I don’t think it’s been explained this way in the show, but the Doctor’s rationale (particularly 12’s) is exactly the same in concept to “put your own oxygen mask on before helping kids”.
It sounds heartless and unsympathetic; but if you, as the more capable person, lose consciousness or die then there’s no way the kid is going to be helped , now or in the future. The one who is best able to fix the situation is the one crucial to survive.
Now imagine being in essence the one capable to save everything all the time! The Doctor must ensure their own survival before anyone else’s.
That’s why I occasionally have a problem with how flippantly they sometimes take the self-sacrifice option, which often hurts the story for me.
great video chief. I must say I miss how you used to emphasize the second syllable in Azbantium 😂
While I personally love THIN ICE (a literally and figuratively chill Victorian story with a not-so-bad kaiju and the Doctor unambiguously punching a racist in the face, all my personal checkpoints), I can see where you're coming from with the overuse of Victorian times in British television, like how all American time travel or period works in 1980s fiction almost always centered around the 1950s, and the even more annoying overuse of the 1980s in modern time travel or period works here in the states.
Okay that's actually a banger video title
Set design is great, the monster is cool but used to forward yet another “the real monster is man” and the Series 10 addendum “the real monster is man AND CAPITALISM” Despite this, Evil Buisness McGee is a decent villian and the Doctor and Bill’s moral conflict is incredible.
This is one of my favorite episodes from season 10 it's awesome the acting is amazing
This isn’t Season 10.
The Doctor's speech about not having time for outrage is why Ncuti's Doctor doesn't work; he doesn't have _time_ to cry because people are counting on him.
you forgot to explain the doctor was in frost fayre before ,as first,ten and eleven for example
I didn't forget, it just wasn't relevant
Actually really like this episode
I loved this episode. It's one I find easy to watch.
No it does not suck
Literally me everytime I try to defend a controversial DW ep
You know how like... each season will have that one Doctor Who episode... where it just like... "yeah, this ain't it"
I wanna say Love & Monster for Series 2, but I know for a fact that many people will defend that episode, as that is not bad, just weird.
So for Series 10, the episode that "ain't it" for me... is The Eaters of Light... cause let me tell you... that... I can't tell you anything, cause I don't even remember what happen in that episode...
I think what’ll end up happening is that we’ll have something similar to Series 5
A strong Series made up of weaker episodes.
Seriously, there’s a lot of good individual moments that appear so consistently throughout the series, but overall there aren’t many standouts aside from a few.
Still, I just really love Series 10, a lighthearted Series that slowly descends into the most depressing reality one could imagine
I don’t know. I think The Pilot, Thin Ice, Oxygen, Extremis, and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls are pretty fantastic. Then again I also think a large chunk of Series 5 is outstanding.
When the doctor sees a kid die 😐
When the doctor sees someone do a heckin racism: 🤬
I can see the kids and villain plot as undercooked, but I just have to roll my eyes at criticism of pacing. Nothing wrong with the pace of the story. I feel like that's become a critique people float to sound like a posh reviewer rather than an actually statement that means anything. Like Ford Prefect trying to rate Vogon poetry and overdoing it.
I loved Thin Ice, and I think I gave it a 7 or an 8 on IMDB, I'm too lazy to go check.
I love the part when the doctor punched the racist lord for Bill Potts.
I know it’s got a lot in common with The Beast Below, but it’s a favourite of mine for several reasons. Firstly Peter looks stunning in his Victorian outfit. Pearl looks so beautiful too. And the punch is hilarious. I think there’s so much to love in this episode.
Cassandra was human. The 'consortium of banks' were humans. Van Statten is human. The point isn't that 'humans are the real monsters' or that 'space monsters are misunderstood' any more than it ever was, and that's just a bad take on this series.
19:25 or the beast below...
Hot Take: _Doctor Who_ has been going downhill ever since Pete left.
The mix of an episode in the past and one in the future series opener isn't just for new companions, it's a rule for every single series of doctor who since 2005. They're all like that.
as a longtime black dw who fan i literally skip shakespeare code human nature/family of blood because it makes me too uncomfortable. but this episode ill gleefully watch knowing 12 punch’s a racist
I see Harbo sneaking in CHASE U. Cheeky lad.
I don’t rlly mind kitty being the only urchin with a main voice, it worked well in the doctor dances 🤷♂️
i forgot this episode existed
"7 years on" 💀 ouch
Sutcliffe is worse than the villains in smile or knock knock in persoanlity and attitude,i think
Neihter.... it burns.
Even under water. "No shi-" *Cut away*
The conflict between Bill and the Doctor is one of the many things that Series 14 was missing.
It's basically a remake of thin ice tbh
I don't think you realise what 'woke' means. This episode isn't it.
Personally, I think the whole Pete skit works better than the one in Space Babies because it's a joke that _doesn't_ exist at the cost of continuity.
Animals are not innocent or guilty as they are Animals
When I was a kid I used to hate it when kids died in things, especially Doctor Who, but now I’m a cynical adult who believes children should be seen and not heard, I love this episode even more 😂
more like thin nice
cos its good