But, does it sound analog? Denafrips Terminator Review!
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- Опубликовано: 21 июл 2024
- #review #denafrips #terminator #DAC
Vinshine Audio: bit.ly/34WMchc
$5000 DAC!? What EXACTLY do you get? Denafrips Terminator Review!
Start: 0:00
Sponsored Mention: 1:06
Exclusive Content: 1:53
General Information 2:13
Fit and Finish 3:10
RTR Topology 4:40
Digital Noise 5:20
Source First 6:21
Time Domain 6:54
Listening Impressions 8:03
Bass Impressions 9:34
Midrange Impressions 11:34
Treble Impressions 12:46
Soundstage Impressions 14:24
Final Thoughts 15:20
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I don't have a Terminator DAC, but I do have some Denafrips gear and I can say that Alvin at Vinshine was very easy to work with. I would buy from him again without question.
Great review. Appreciated the insights. I have the Ares 2 and will continue to look what Denafrips releases as they do sound analog
Ron, just recently found your channel while researching audio components but I have to say you seem to be one of the most informed, unbiased, and knowledgeable enthusiast reviewers out there! I much rather watch one of your videos than read a 3-4 page review on stereophile or the absolute sound! Keep up the good work! I'm not super knowledgeable about circuit board topology and electrical components but your reviews help cut through the all the entracacies of the tech talk and just get to the heart of the issue! I just like great sounding music so thanks for breaking it down in dummy terms for us guys who didn't get an electrical engineer degree. This review of a ladder DAC was of particular interest to me bc Ive been looking at the new MAY DAC from Holo audio! I'm currently running a Lumin T2 which is a Saber chipset based DAC and it sounds great (very detailed and precise) but Im told that some ladder DAC's just have a better overall musical presentation that chipset DACs can't compete with. Almost like a solid state amp vs. a tube amp. Less precise but just sounds better!
What a kind thing to say! I appreciate that!
Ron, you’re so right regarding the crucial importance of speaker placement. There is a strong correlation between people who think that all DACs sound the same and people who have their speakers slammed against the wall
Preach it!
Moving your speakers a few inches in any direction will make more difference than the sound of any DAC.
@@brydon10 Well changing speaker position will change frequency response, soundstage, and imaging. All DACs except really crappy ones will have a dead flat frequency response, so changes you'd perceive by changing your DAC would be a change in soundstage & imaging, but mostly a change in overall character.
There is also a correlation between those who believe in the massive difference between transparent DACs and those who spend $1000s on cables with silly names. I am sure you have a wide array of cables, dacs, amps, cable raisers, power conditioner, upgraded power cables, and so on.
Agreed, nothing, absolutely nothing makes a bigger difference to your sound (once you have half decent components) than your room and the placement of the speakers in this room. Then again how many of us can afford to have loudspeakers 2m from each wall, or have diffusers and absorber panels on the wall. I don’t know about most, but my wife would much prefer a painting on a living room wall and even bookshelves are relegated to either a guest room, under a stair well, or some less visible area.
So unless you can afford a dedicated listening room or a room whose primary function is for listening and is treated to serve this function, spending $4000 on a DAC or $6000 on loudspeakers is a waste of money.
Excellent review Ron. My Dad is considering an upgrade to his older Bryston BDA-1 Dac. This one could be a very good candidate. Going to check out what you have on Patreon next.
The time domain section is really key. You simply will not hear all the good stuff if your setup/room/acoustics are not sorted out. I have a friend who has a stereo as expensive as my house and he thinks he has to buy the most expensive Pass amplifiers out there to get his rig to produce 'micro detail'. The rig is setup in an unfinished basement (no Sheetrock...). I keep saying he could get the sound right with about 300$ in temporary acoustic treatments..... but he simply will not think like a physicist, but instead insists on thinking like an audiophile (i.e. buy new shit until you get something that works... instead of just fixing the room).
To be clear, bad setup/bad acoustics can and will disappear musical content, alter tone, mess up bass, all in all, completely change the sound for the worse if not sorted out correctly. It's physics, not snake oil.
Very good review! I'm a musician getting studio monitors from Danny at GR. He just recommended Denafrips to me as a better DAC than my Motu M4. But I'm caught between between the RME ADI-2 DAC and Denafrips Ares 2. Speed and accuracy vs musically engaging and more fleshed out sonic qualities? Tough call for me. Also, CANT WAIT for your puffin review!!!!!!!!!!! 🐧 🐧 🐧 🐧 🐧 🐧 Both the denouncers and supporters of DSP can huff and puff all they want, don't let them stop you from speaking your mind on that puffin! Cheers bro!
Hey Ron, new sub here from Canada. Enjoying your folksy styled David Cross voice and will be trying out some of your gear recommendations and am considering Patreon. Thanks for this review!
great review bro i will check out that dac .thank you very much.....
Very good review. Thanks Ron👍😎
Working on re-arranging my speakers, before committing to an expensive DAC. You are awesome Ron!
Good man!
I'm super stoked with your journey of discovery leading to R2R DACs Ron. I've been enjoying R2R DACs for a long time and have always wondered at why more people haven't caught on to it, seeing as how it is one of the earliest high end DAC topologies. I would love to see you getting a hold of more R2R DACs from Audio-gd, Holo Audio, Metrum Acoustics, etc - as well as multibit DACs in comparison.
Dude thanks! Just got the Holo May DAC! Momma Mia, it’s good!
@@Newrecordday2013 Looking forward to the review!
@@Newrecordday2013 Do you prefer the Holo May DAC or the Terminator? hmm?
Will you review the Soundaware D300 music streamer to go with the terminator? recommended by Alvin at Vinshine Audio.
Lol!....that was a great rant, which hit the damned nail on the damned head. Excellent and comprehensive review, so nice you applied such dimensionality to what a good piece of equipment can offer. This helped, regardless of what DAC we might be considering after our current one. Consider my noodle baked.
Nice review, Ron! Thanks. Is there a comparison with Schiit Yggdrasil in your Patreon vid?
Edit: So glad you pinpointed the placement and the source problems! A lot of folks don’t realize this at all. Spend a bunch of money and wonder where’s their quality.
how does this compare to the Holo Audio May?
It’s important to note every environment is different...& the heard results of speaker placement varies based on environment & speaker design. I have front ported Salk Song3 Encore’s…and after trial and error with placement in my personal space…these speakers sound ‘right’…near the wall (one foot or less)…with no toe in. It provides the best tuning and the widest soundstage. It also centers the midrange such that it doesn’t sound like the vocals are approaching me from the left/right speakers….it sounds closer to being at a live venue. The music envelops the space best in that position to my ears. My space is a bonus room with hardwood floors and no room treatment.
Okay, good review and great presentation! But I'm still no further ahead in deciding which DAC I'm going to buy. Be interesting to know how the Terminator compares to the Nuprime EVO and the Sonnet Morpheus? Don't know much about the Nuprime but I've read some say they prefer the Sonnet to the Denafrips.
which f. terminator is? T or T+??
I agree my Yamaha AS-1100 sounds best when i leave it on all weekend ! 😃
Thanks for the review Ron !
Hi Ron I see you have heard the terminator and the lampizator amber 3 dac, both are similar price range dacs, how do they compare, and which is better? Thanks!
I have heard both and I find that the Lampizator amber 3 sounds much more warmer and "analog like" than the terminator. In my humble opinion, the Terminator does not sound anything like analog. No doubt its super clean and does exactly what its supposed to do (D-> A), but to me, the amber 3 sounded more engaging, and I was drawn to the music.
Iam using a Sprout 100 and only use the dac,later i added a Crown XLS 1002 and it transformed the sound best upgrade ever at a low cost.
What happens if just 1 resister fails?
interesting video. are you ever going to review the Parks Audio Puffin preamp?
...you promised me Ron!
Nice video. since we talk about fundamentals, worth mentioning that vast majority of contemporary vinyls were mastered on digital gear so what do you actually hear as analog sound. Talk to people who master vinyl stuff and you'll know why vinyls sound different (some peple prefer it). They are mastered in different way due to mechanical limitations of master cutting process and also due to mechanical limitations of readout of the record.
Speaking of pure analog rigs, I am building a pure analog rig. I have next to me a Don Sachs phono stage and I have a Decware amp a few months away. My issue is I didn’t order a preamp from Decware when I should have. Now I am stuck trying to figure out what would go well between a very neutral amp with a very nice phono stage upstream. Also, btw, the Decware community likes Denafrips DACs paired with Decware amps.
You said exactly the right thing!...
How does it compare to the Terminator Plus? You showed the T+ briefly on the Vinshine website near the start of this video - thank you.
I haven’t heard the T+ so I’m not sure
@@Newrecordday2013 thank you for your prompt reply:-)
You've already had experience with an R2R ladder DAC, Ron! The Schiit Bifrost 2 is an R2R ladder DAC. The Denefrips DAC's are discrete component R2R ladder DAC's where the Schiit multibit DAC's are chip based R2R ladder DAC's (the resistor ladder network is inside DAC chip).
Learn something everyday! I thought multibit and r2r were two totally different things!
@@Newrecordday2013 Ha ha. Great review as always, Ron!
@@Newrecordday2013 It's complicated. Not all current multibit designs use the traditional R2R ladder method, and if they do, there's usually some customizations. The Schiit implementation is rather cool - they repurposed medical DAC chips to do R2R ladders. 'Course, the big chip makers (Burr Brown/TI, Philips, Analog Devices) have stopped producing R2R DAC chips so designers invested in R2R have had to improvise and create their own. If you can find DACs based on new old stock PCM1704UK and TDA1541A chips, by all means, jump on them!
There is a distinction to be made between discrete R2R ladder DACs and chip based R2R DACs. There are actual resistors in discrete Resistor2Resistor ladder DACs, while the R2R DAC chips approximate the functionality of R2R ladders digitally.
@@infn the TDA1541A uses Dynamic Element Matching.. Multibit but not R2R Ladder.
@@rickg8015 I stand corrected. Thanks!
"Does the DAC sound analog?" Exactly.
Dude! I see the Kinki Studio below the Terminator. When is the review coming? :-) (I have one. Would love to hear what you think about it)
Due to his review, I bought the Kinki.
I absolutely love it!
It replaced my Marantz PM10.
I totally agree that your speakers should breathe, your sound can go from good to amazing, one of the system changing activities and for the best.
Great Ron. I wonder how the review impression would had gone if we did not have the mighty sapphire speakers in house..
I guess that you are well covered by the mighty gear from Dany R anyway.
But anyway that highlights the problem that one of the more important things like the speakers is changing in your test bed.
So why should we care what you are saying if you use "better" speakers when reviewing components X and it may get a little better review because of that. And you use "not THAT good" speakers for review of component Y (that might be better sounding)..
What I am saying maybe it is time to get a base line of your test bed?
Thanks for your great review!
Thank you!
The source is so critical to get the most out of your high end DAC
Really should be a 50/50 split spend wise
Looks like Terminator plus?
I live in AZ too... are you enjoying these triple digit temps in mid October like I am!? X_X
Yes 100+ degree Thanksgivings and Xmas's are awesome
When can we see the Holo Audio review?
Pretty soon
I love Darko's ambient, post modern Berlin, neue techno, next level beats. But Ron... Your intro tunes Rokk my Kef Coda III's. Nuf respekt. 🏴🐙🐉
Is it twice as good as the American juggernaut the Schiit ( Ska-heet) Yggdrasil ?
Yes
audio is never a linear relationship of $ invested to % improvement... It's log scale.
Would love to see you get a hold of the new SMSL SU-9 ...curious to know how it handles MQA with tidal. And it's overall sound. Most of us are ballers on a budget and a price tag of $439 on Amazon is tempting
Agreed. The market for a sub $700 DACs is several times larger than for $4000+ DACs. Just as the market for sub $2000 loudspeakers is several times larger than for $5000+ loudspeakers. It is my belief that one can make/build a very very good product for $600-600 when it comes to DACs and $2000-2500 when it comes to loudspeakers. So good that unless one has exceptional source material and room acoustics one can’t tell the difference between these and components 2x or 3x the price.
A decent DAC ( $300-$1000) ..the rest of budget should be put into pre/ amp and speaker.
As always placement of speakers for great sound/ soundstage/ imaging .
Ron...I'll take 5 of them....really @5000$...no thanks... i'll keep using the real analog deal...my 1980's vintage technics equipment with modern speakers...made in japan!!! enjoyed the review...thank you!!!
I'd like to see test data
Ethan Winer could use his null tester if you sent him a pair of DACs to truly see and hear the difference.
You think so?
@@Newrecordday2013 Yes. It compares the two signals in a way that cancels out all similarities.
If nothing is left, or it's just noise 100dB down, then we know it's transparent to the human ear.
@@stevenswall I think you may be underestimating the human ear. Check this out - everyone - ruclips.net/video/GddvjCHNxjU/видео.html
Ron it would be helpful to know what DAC mode your review is based on. The NOS mode for example sounds different than the OS slow filter mode,etc... What did you use ?
NOS
Lampizator vs. Denafrips vs. Holo Audio vs. Rockna vs. MSB vs. Linn vs. PSA vs. Chord.. the ultimate DAC shootout!
Need to add Aqua La Scala Optilogic to the list
@@RootsMusicHawaii Mola Mola Tambaqui, Esoteric, DCS Paganini, Aurender W20, Berkelely Audio Design, Jeff Rowland, EMM labs... we could go on for a day listing all the big hitter TOTL dacs to test. The list quickly becomes unmanageable
Yes. Dark compared the Terminator to several DACs in his review (jump to 11 minutes): ruclips.net/video/9tGmD6j8fC0/видео.html I'm curious how Lampizator and Holo Spring DACs stack up with the ones Darko compared.
@@aceofspades6667 but now we are taking Uber high end
Unable to hear a difference, between dacs. I have not every dac of course.
@@plcamp1 fun yes, most dac are almost perfect. Analog and digital circuits measures far under ear sensitivity. Reel to reel are beautiful 13 bits resolution beasts.
There are measurements on this vlog, what is fine. For electronics you need a really expensive stuff when it comes to 100dB -.
A - 65 dB turntable sounds fine so... Is it useful... Not for me.
Sorry to say it but DACs sound very different if you have a good setup.
@@MartinHAndersen fine if you can enjoy it.
Love how you told us your name as if you just discovered it. Lol
Haha
My Bifrost2 pairs with my tinnitus really well and, thusly, is good enough. 🙄 Ray Brown 👍
I agree, as a severe tinnitus suffer, some equipment gives me an ear splitting headache. I don’t know why some gear does this….
Just do you. Tried alot of DACS, but the RME DAC just seems to be the more balanced sounding DAC to me. I've not heard a Denafrips so can't comment or compare. The RME ADI-2 DAC is the best I've heard to date and I've tried alot. A good system requires proper setup. No need getting a quality component and feeding it with low quality source. I used to think things were all snake oil, but after really doing the hard work to set up my gear properly things are now beginning to fall into place. From a dedicated streamer to cables, to speaker type, and placement of speakers in relation to listening position. Most people want plug and play, if that's you, just get an all in one or active speaker system which you like the sound of and you're done!.
I still have my ADI2 FS and it has been relegated to 2 channel home theatre duty. It is impressive for a Delta Sigma DAC. Highly resolving, detailed and as you say, balanced. Compared to my R2R Audio-gd R7 though, which has all of that but on a higher level, what the ADI2 FS doesn't have is pinpoint imaging, palpable deep soundstage, layering and the ability to convince you that the performers are right there with you in the room.
Infn E i'm realy interested by the audio gd7 he , the only r2r i Heard is ares2, its good but clearly lacked in dynamics, but textures Layers of information was great and air between instruments was great, the audio gd seems a good choice but with the new terminator?
@@planchernewfinish I actually have an Ares2 too. Mine sounded so muted and lacking in dynamics on first power up that I thought there was something wrong with it. It took several days of 24/7 running to sound decent and even then it sounded veiled in comparison to an Audio-gd DAC-19. If it were my first R2R DAC, I might have been impressed. But the DAC-19 was in a completely different class and was the overwhelming winner for me.
I haven't heard the Terminator, but for what it's worth, Ron uses the same descriptors that I would use for the R7. That said, if Denafrips maintains a house sound between the Ares II and the Terminator, my preference is for Audio-gd. The R7 was a revelation in my main system (Harbeth Super HL5+, Hegel H90, Tidal Hifi from PC). Pinpoint imaging, deep soundstage and layering, highly resolving and a natural, effortless presentation.
@@infn thx that gives me a very good understanding on the comparison, i sold my bryston bda-3 to a smsl m-400 which is great ,better in some ways than bryston, but the depth in sound stage is not as good . And i wanted to “invest” into something that gave me that sens of spacious and natural tones without sacrificing dynamics.. thx again !
Speaker placement is almost as important as room treatment. NOTHING will make a bigger difference than that when done correctly.
Wow, so refreshing!
There's nothing as impactful as the loudspeaker/room interface ... not only that, NOTHING even comes close!
THANK YOU RON!
Thank you Ron!
ᵀʰᵃⁿᵏ ʸᵒᵘ ᴿᵒⁿ
...... ... ...
(reverb trails)
I had the Denafrips Pontus II for about 6 months in 2021. I honestly couldn’t tell any difference between it and my Topping D90 (4499). My other gear: Crown XLS 2502, LS50 Metas, SVS 3000 Micro. Everything is connected to my PC for music and games. I ended up selling both dacs and bought the FiiO K9 Pro ESS. I’m happy with the audio and quite honestly am sick of the dac-go-round. This was a helluva great video. Consider me subscribed, mate!! Oh, you were spot on about Alvin. He’s a true professional who really cares about his customers.
Hey Ron, I don't see you at the daily hifi anymore, what happened
Nothing happened. I just decided to focus on my channel. Thanks!
Wow I was assuming $800 then $1500 then $3000 by the end.... But $5k... Fffucfkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
🥺
Denafrips has great DACs starting at $750. Check out Denafrps Ares reviews..
8:12 Arizona? I thought you were in Texas.
I am in Texas. I was in AZ.
@@Newrecordday2013 ah
Dude, just found your videos on RUclips, made me really happy looking through your post history. All was great till I hear you are doing more involved reviews and conversation with a Patreon subscription level. I get the reasons for getting paid subscriptions but in most cases paid Patreon videos get an early view, then become open to the general public after time. This is an extremely disappointing thing to hear. I guess I’ll still keep visiting for the entertainment but for any real in-depth audio reviews and reporting I’ll just have to dig and hunt elsewhere. All the best with your channel.
Well the videos for patrons are additional videos. I release all the reviews and main content to the public at the same time as when the patrons see it. Thanks!
try bacch sp adio
R2R is so BS. No one can select resistors that represent set of exact resistor values in a row (2^n)•base_resistance. While all deviations will count as distortion in any measurement.
Good products but no auditions and no U.S. distributor.
"All dacs sound the same"
Have you been on audio science alot 😂😂😂😂
Personally I really love the eye candy inside denafrips dacs
@SFG
I think you absolutely might not be possibly onto something maybe.
I have an intense dislike for that site and forum. Objective measurements have their uses as baseline indicators for hifi gear performance but relying on specs alone to decide on DAC or amp purchases is folly. Though I suppose for people who lack the ability to discern fine differences in sound quality, it's all the same to them anyway.
@@infn no they don't promote quantitative measurement ONLY. It is important given that audio field is full of unscientific concepts, dishonesy and snake oil.
Give me some good ol American made Schiit…many, many choices and great quality..and I’m not spending 5Gs for a DAC…my ears just ain’t that good anymore….so you want it to sound analogue? Those sources would be am/fm , tape , and Vinyl, everything else is digital..
But does Bob Dylan still sound like a man strumming A, E and D while singing A flat, E flat and D out of time?
Mola Mola
P7
How analogue it sounds basically means how little digital distortion does it have. From my limited knowledge there will always be digital distortion, because computers being mathematical machines can’t compute Pi, therefore can’t produce a perfect circle for example, it’s always an approximation, it can be a very good approximation but it’s never 100%. Maybe it will be one day, maybe not.
I hate it when a 200 dollar dac needs another 500 dollars to determine a one from a zero. Or, many many many zeroes on the end.
Who on god’s earth says this?
Says what?
It’s not a shot you! - what serious person into hifi thinks all DACS sound the same? It’s just lazy. Your reviews are fantastic.
Ranting most of the time🤧
with an average income (or a bit more) you really must be a fool on spending 5k on a DAC. A cheap 100$ one would do the same job
No, it won’t.
RE: your thumbnail: "All DACs sound the same. No they don't"
Agreed; poorly engineered DACs, and DACs which have a design objective other than sonic accuracy, can sound different.
RE: "It comes down to what matters the most... does the DAC sound analog".
Disagree on that point. It might be what matters most to *you*, but you can't generalize like that.
The more accurate DACs get (yes, from a measurement standpoint), the more they sound the same. That poses a problem for companies who want to differentiate themselves and justify high prices and margins for their DAC. Given that manufacturers can create extremely accurate DAC implementations for not much money, I can completely understand why another company might choose to create their own sound, or casework, or appealing marketing storey, in an attempt to justify high price tags and margins.
That’s fair. Thanks for the comment!
Through auditioning them over the years, I've come to the conclusion that super high end TT setups sound similar to super high end DAC setups and vice versa. What's analog and what's digital when both, at their absolute best, sound effortlessly natural and organic, yet highly transparent and resolving?
Now I know what mansplaining feels like. It's friggin brutal, man.
Sorry to say . I concluded Dacs are big scam and rip off . If u want analog sound, invest 2 k on records and 3 k on turntable. Do not fall in if anybody says dacs sounds like analog. I feel RME Ad2i fs dac more than enough . Actually we do not require Dacs. Matching respective brands always better way .
i sort of agree. i can hear the differences in speakers, yes. how about amps? sometimes yes but always think i am bias about price. can i hear the difference in dacs, i would say no so i really do not have a golden ear. i have a hard time going from a $200 dac to $750. i would rather get better speakers.
I disagree. To replace a dead R2R DAC, I got an ADI2 FS on impulse as a stopgap, having read/watched the hype about it. And while I was impressed by it as a Delta Sigma DAC, it was still lacking. After receiving my Audio-gd R7, I could instantly tell the difference. The ADI2 FS was clean and highly resolving but in comparison to the R7 which resolved on a yet higher level, the ADI2 was one dimensional and flat. The R7 made the soundstage and spatial cues feel tangible, provided pinpoint imaging and brought the singers and instruments firmly into the room. The room became the venue. The depth and layering of the instruments in the soundstage was incredible, I could easily tell how much further back or in front they were. And yes, the R7 sound is organic and natural, like high-end turntable setups I've heard.
Mind you, the resolving ability of the speakers and the rest of the system is critical to being able to discern these differences. The difference in DACs is more pronounced on my Harbeth Super HL5+ vs my Harbeth P3ESR and Elac UB5s. What Ron mentioned about how you feed the DAC is also absolutely true. I'm not quite at the point where I'm willing to invest in a specialist hifi music server/streamer, but I have had to optimize my audio streaming PC with a properly specced USB cable and a USB reclocker.
I came to make a similar comment. I'm not saying dacs are a rip-off, but I'm saying to spend $5k on a dac plus however much on a digital source to achieve 'analog' sound that you can get spending $3k on a turntable, $1k on a cart and $1.5k on a phono stage seems goofy to me. If you want analog, go analog. Now, if you want the best digital sound you can get, knock yourself out---but if you like the way analog sounds, you're not truly going to get there. And trust me, I've heard wonderful digital rigs... I'd just rather put the money into my analog source and buy records....
@@wa2368 what crap are you talking ? I said any one says dac sounds like analog .. that shit .. like your response to me . RME or delta sigma or meta material.. I do not give shit about it .. yes what I got is that best after burning my money . So to you . Because I know what I am talking. If you have any to share . Share it and face it . Do not ever never give shitty response.
@@infn agreed, a great DAC properly set up and with a great server/cables/switch/LPS etcetera can sound fantastic, people who speak in absolutes about hifi like the turntable fanatics who scream nothing digital comes close are best ignored. Had a turntable and records at the beginning years and years ago, but eventually succumbed to the lure of millions of artists and genres via streaming, and have no regrets, particularly now that digital tech is so quickly advancing that soon there will be zero qualitative sonic difference between analog and digital sources.