Lewis and Tolkien Debate Myths and Lies
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- A clip from EWTN's "Tolkien's 'The Lord of the Rings:' A Catholic Worldview" portraying a debate between C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien on whether or not myths are lies. This debate was ultimately instrumental in C.S. Lewis's conversion to Christianity.
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"Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again." - C.S. Lewis.
2:33 doesn't the fact that the prisoner is able to think of the easter bunny, suggest that the easter bunny does exist?
. . .
no, no it doesn't
Didn't you watch the video? The fact that it is a myth doesn't detract from the primordial joy that the Easter Bunny brings to children. It even was right at the beginning! And every prison has an outside. Even if it was placed in the middle of the Earth it would still have an outside. The second that you stop believing that there is more than just those walls, is when it becomes true, and all hope is lost.
the trouble is the people that believe the books, and then kill people based on what the book says.
dan b You can say that about anything.
No. But something like?
Tolkien's persistence made former atheist C. S. Lewis one of the most influential writers of Christian Apologetics. These two men are brilliant.
There were others as well, including one Charles Williams.
I honestly believe that Lewis was never a true atheist, only a self-proclaimed one because he didn't know what else to call it or in order to add more legitimacy to the claim of his conversion, as he himself wrote that it wasn't that he didn't believe God existed, but rather he was angry with God for not existing.
Also, and I don't mean any disrespect, I find Lewis' fiction very stale and second-rate, and his work of apologetics merely adequate at best. He basically took centuries' old arguments by much better philosophers and theologians like Atanasius, Augustine, Anselm and Thomas Aquinas, and rehashed them in a more readable manner. His own "original" propositions, like his famous trilemma on the nature of Christ, was more based on sophistry and fallacious reasoning than on solid arguments. And even Tolkien, his best friend and himself a proud and devout catholic, disliked Lewis' mediocre approach to writing fiction and apologetics.
@@CsnvLsRnst I guess there's a troll in every thread.
@@MaskedMan66 I think I had never been called a "troll" for respectfully offering my reasons to why I have a different opinion on a particular topic, so I'm very flattered :)
@@CsnvLsRnst I didn't see much (or any) respect in what you wrote.
"if the prison is all there is , how is it that we are able to picture things that exist beyond the prison?" exactly !
It is a very peculiar question, apparently asked by a person who has never pictured something which does not exist. It is difficult to believe that Tolkien of all people would think that imagination is so limited, but perhaps he somehow managed to convince himself that all his stories truly happened somewhere, despite him inventing them himself. Could he have thought that Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf all truly existed, and it was that sincere belief which motivated him to write so beautifully about them? He may have thought: if they don't really exist somewhere, how is it that I am able to picture them?
It did seem a strange line. Are we to assume the prisoner was born in the prison? (I realize it’s a metaphor, but the metaphor didn’t work for me.)
I was so confused until I realized that the guy who looked like Lewis was actually Tolkien
Josh Burns same here 😃🇦🇺
Josh Burns uh hi
No, he looks like Tolkien. The guy playing Lewis looks like Lovecraft.
I’m there with ya
This was when they were younger...
For people who love Narnia and Middle Earth, try GK Chesterton's The Ballad of The White Horse. It's an epic poem about the Saxon King Alfred's heroic struggle against the Viking Danes.
It's about faith, hope and courage in the face of insurmountable odds. Very powerful and uplifting.
It's funny that my two favorite authors were good friends in life
Fun fact: H.P Lovecraft and Robert E Howard were also good friends.
MetallicaMan76 not really, they were good friends, of course, but often debated on literature. And they seldom agreed. In fact, they were really only good friends while they were both professors, and they grew apart over the years. Not only literature, but also religion. On the night that Tolkien took a walk with Lewis trying to convert him to Christianity, he wanted him to be a Roman Catholic, not a Protestant. However, both of them were devout Christians and used many of their beliefs to base them inside some of their books, such as Tolkien’s Silmarillion, and Lewis’s Space Trilogy.
Glorfindel the Golden-haired Prince They we’re great friends and God used them both. They might’ve disagreed on literature but most writers and theologians quarrel on such things . But their love for God and fiction and the amazing stories they brought are results of God’s sovereignty and love, to remind us that he’s not just here in the corporeal universe but especially in the spiritual universe and even the fictional universes we create in stories.
YES AND THEY WERE BOTH ATHEISTS.....WHO GOT "SAVED "...
AFTER COLLEGE HAD TURNED THEM INTO ATHEISTS....!!!
COLLEGE STUDENTS TO DO THAT TURN FOLKS INTO HEDONISTS....
AND PRODUCTS OF HUMANISM...
THE GOD SPEAKS TO YOUR INNER SPIRIT TO ALL OF OUR SPIRITS..
ACTUALLY GOD NEVER STOPS TALKING TO US..
NO MATTER WHAT'S HAPPENING IF WE HAVE EVER HEARD THE NAME GOD.... HE WILL ALWAYS SPEAK TO US...
THE OXFORD DONS, OR THE BEGGAR ON THE STREET......
WE WILL HEAR FROM GOING ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT THE CONDITION IS THAT WE ARE IN..
THESE TWO REPRESENT HARDCORE ATHEISTS...
IT TURNED TO GOD....
AND THE REST WAS HISTORY.
If only G.K. Chesterton could have lived unnaturally long and given us his commentary of the Lord of the Rings.... that essay would be the things that dreams are made of...
“[Fairy tales] make rivers run with wine only to make us remember, for one wild moment, that they run with water.” -Chesterton
Tolkien gives us a world filled with Hobbits, wizards elves, and orcs; reminding us we live in a world of men, saints, sinners, angels, and demons
It would have been interesting, but the phrasing "lived unnaturally long" is just wrong: the first two books were released in 1954, with the third book being released in 1955 - he would have been in his 80s had he lived to see The Lord of the Rings book trilogy being released - and there's nothing "unnatural" about living to 80s.
Maybe we can get Peterson to do it. Iirc Pageau has already made a start on it.
Or to hear him debate with Richard Dawkins, especially around the comment at 7:14.
Lewis wrote a review of The Lord of the Rings. Probably the most glowing review anybody ever wrote.
I love how most of this is taken directly from Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories", no speculation, no investigation from other writings, but the words of the men themselves.
Have none of you who are claiming Tolkien never believed this way actually bothered reading his letters? If you don't like the fact that he did have a Christian faith then fine, but you can't deny the fact that he did.
i dont . in fact i greatly love and respect him for it. i have a great love and appreciation for catholism.)
@@cuchulain55 roman catholic, tolkien was specifically roman catholic which i used to be
@@kevinmorrice i know.:) and i love catholism and am a great defender of it. in the highest:) when i think of the beautiful christian faith tradion i i mostly just regard and think of oriental eastern orthdox and catholic in that order.:) no offense to protestents they are all geeat to of course in thier own way, but im just not in to that form of christanity.
@@cuchulain55 i left the church because of personal issues i had, ive been a buddhist for 15 years now as a result, i once even gave a 20 minute talk on buddhism at my old church
@@kevinmorrice thats awesome!:) i my self am a perrenial philosopher. the religio sophia perrenis which adheres to the transcendent unity of all faiths.:)
As both a Christian and a novelist, words can not describe how amazing this video is to me. Thank you for posting it!
C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity", "Hope" Chapter explains this concept... that our Hopes give us clues to wonderful things to come. “If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.”
- C.S. Lewis
I liked this clip, and the performances, but J.R.R and C.S were basically young at the same time, so it's kinda strange that Lewis is portrayed here as a young man and Tolkien as an old man
Luis Acosta Casanova also Jack Lewis Looked more like they have Tolkien looking
Actually, the old man IS Tolkien. He used to call C.S Lewis Jack - it's complicated...
Exactly, they were only six years apart
The particular production team that put these videos together has these same two actors who play multiple historical characters. They work on a shoestring budget. They do all these different roles more as a ministry than a living. I have seen these same men play roles as diverse as Charles Darrow, Socrates, G.K. Chesterton and Friedrich Nietzsche. So although they do their best to make them look more like the individual they are playing, the real point is to make them speak in the terminology and thought process of the historical figure being studied.
I have a friend whose hairline is far more gone than the actor in this clip. He's 27.
3:39 "What on earth is this truth you are *tolkien* about?" :D
lol funny pun
C.S. Lewis is actually the younger man. I can see how it is confusing as he goes by the name "Jack" but Lewis was actually commonly called Jack by his close friends and family - it was the name of his childhood dog (Jacksie).
Lewis's and Tolkien's work won't be forgotten.
Their better than GOT
One year and 35 likes later...They're* and Than*.
@@curiousgeorge7080
*Fixed*
I got it no worries.
I'm so glad someone agrees with me
GOT is pretty good come on but it doesn't beat the works of tolkein and cs lewis. even tolkein took his work from myths and legends of english folk history, welsh language and norse mythology
it's called a song of ice and fire not game of thrones
I cannot imagine the mental depravity necessary to give this a thumbs down
I can. Atheism.
I feel enlightened watching this.
well it is a very enlightening talk.:)
Enlightened is probably the wrong word unless you're being sarcastic. :)
what word would you use?
+Andrew Levin
Enlightened is fine if you've realized that on the subject of God, Lewis was little more than Ken Ham with vocabulary.
+blackmore4 whoever this Ken guy is you really seam to like him as you keep bringing him up. wasnt that the dude who argued with mr Bill Nye?
Ah, the good old days when people actually had conversations about something worth talking about. Now days everyone just wants to talk about sports, how to make more money, and gossip.
Cancel your cable subscription! The worlds' I.Q.'s declined collectively as T.V.'s proliferated. There are so few with original thoughts because so many share the same and still fewer read to know any better. So-called "mass media" and consumerism are only delaying us from realizing the new Renaissance!
To lose so many souls, so many great minds to a holocaust of aimless distractions at the expense of the future is surely more horrific than any holocaust of the flesh! We must always pray for God's Saving Grace!
I don't even watch TV, if i do it's the news or i'm popping a movie in. Network television absolutely disgust me, and the commercials are very simplified and childish. In my free time I read Tolkien's works or a non fiction article of some type. Being a writer I also do that. The desire to have a conversation like the one in this video is overwhelming and unfortunately hardly anyone in my generation has the interest or the intellect to do so. Not saying i'm better than any of them, but I wish the world was more literate than what it currently is.
Winston Bay
I cancelled my SKY subscription when I saw my little girls watching drivel on Cartoon Network. It was utter brain rot. We are all made in the image of God and we have free will. We all have the ability to think. The game is distraction and thinking can be quite burdensome to be honest, especially living around zombies.
I try to point them to read certain things and I have found that they do it without pressure in their own time. I don't force my will but, they can be shepherded.
deepheart100 Don't be so hasty to go and slander everybody. Theres always people around dying for opportunities to share their passions and discuss the possible Truth etc
Or just talk about the 'good old days'
I kept waiting for one of them to call the other a racist or a Nazi but didn't happen. They just keep exchanging ideas.
Wasn't it Tolkien who just said that all myths really point to the true myth of Christ? Accidental allegory is inescapable. Have you ever read or seen Legends of The Fall? Tristan goes away and writes back home that he is "dead". His loved ones think he will never come back. but, one day he does, in a dramatic way. He reconciles with his father and takes a bride (the Church). All "original stories", at least have a hint at the Real Original. We are all wired for God. We can't get away from him.
I enjoy all the research that was put into this:
C. S. Lewis was called "Jack" by Tolkien.
The actor who played Tolkien (if anyone knows who that is, please let me know, thank you) managed to capture Tolkien's speech patterns very well.
They used a word Tolkien coined: eucatastrophe (such a pretty word, to me at least)
And I'm sure there are many more, but that's all I noticed.
The actor who played Tolkien is Kevin O'Brien. There is another video that showcases his acting titled "Socrates meets Jesus", in which he plays the titular philosopher transported to a modern university's world religions class. It's quite entertaining.
Ah, I see.
Thank you good sir.
surely it was lewis who called tolkien jack
@@TheWeepingDalek Jack really was Lewis's nickname, from his childhood and all his life. You can look it up easily - it's a well-known fact.
Lewis was called jack by anyone with whom he was on a first name basis because he hated the name Clive Staples
I love the story told by Tolkien's grandson about his grandfather's consternation at the post-Vatican II changes to the liturgy. In particular, he objected to the liturgy being done in English and would, as a protest, give his responses rather loudly in Latin. Heaven only knows what Tolkien would make of some the masses that are celebrated in Catholic parishes today, especially in England and the United States. It's probably for the best that he didn't live to see such things.
I wonder if he would of converted to eastern orthodoxy. a friend of mydads did because of the vactican 2 changes
***** wow! really I didn't know that before. so the british at that time would of been even more against Christian orthodoxy.
***** saying responses in latine isn't heresy.
***** Not likely: Catholicism does have a controversial legacy in Britain, but by Tolkien's time converts to the Church of Rome were not unusual. While such things did occasionally take place until about 100 years ago, there was never any hostilely towards the Orthodox due to the absence of sheared history. The perception was that they were foreign and a bit odd, but not something to be feared. Catholicism on the other hand had threatened the very existence of England a number of times, and inflicted much carnage - hence catholic converts were traditionally seen as being traitors - while the British were heavily invested more than others to build up the greeks for independence as an Orthodox nation, and merging royalty into the devoutly Orthodox Romanov family.
Rather Notsay The whole English Civil War was brought about because King Charles I favoured Roman Catholicism. Catholics in Britain since Henry VIII's creation of the Church Of England were seen as traitors to the state and were arrested and killed just by practising their religion, because there were strict laws against it. There was the huge exclusion crisis in Charles II's reign, because his brother who would later become James II was a well known catholic and the people refused to have a Catholic on the throne. The Royal family, even today still can't convert to Catholicism or marry a Catholic as one of the titles the monarch accepts is Defender of the Faith as the Head of the Church of England. So yeah there is bit of an anti-Catholic history going on there :).
Tolkien is arguing what I’ve been trying to argue for years now but so much better than I ever could.
I do not believe in relegion, but I'm with Tolkien on this one. There is far more to our lives and the universe than we know. It would be stupid to think we got it all figured out already.
jordilop15 I can appreciate the that.
May I suggest the lectures by Ryan Reeves on Lewis and Tolkine
But to make stuff up and then profess it to be true is nothing like the same thing. That's propaganda at best, malice at worst.
True, we don't know everything, but we're learning quickly, and not because our myths proved to be true.
Rather because...science!
Materialism never posits that everything is already accounted for and understood, just that nothing is beyond human comprehension. Anything can be quantified, we need only advance far enough to find the means.
@@daltongarrett3393 Very logical. However what you have stated is pretty much metaphysical justification to materialism's potential. Materialism denies metaphysical concepts. At least what I am led to believe.
I once thought RUclips was merely a website abused by children containing nothing but meaningless videos and music. That is, until i stumbled upon this hidden treasure
RUclips is far from being what it was ten years ago. There is so much high quality content on all sorts of topics these days.
Yep !
Jordan Peterson.
Not all Catholics priests abuse children. Shame on those who did, however.
Look up C.S. Lewis Doodle
Rationality has become a human religion. What we as humans consider rational can potentially be the laughing stock of 100 years from now.
Possibly but today you and I would not know which conclusions would turn out to be true and which would be false. So it would be pointless to wonder about that, except leaving all options open.
Human wisdom is time bound, while God's Wisdom is timeless.
Dodec84
But the issue is that they hold those things to be absolute instead of saying "thats the best guess so far".
SetsunaAngel99 a good example of that, would be how the Soviet Union taught the Sciences. Keep in mind, that the Soviet Union was an officially atheist state.
Why don't you find out what it even means before you knock it. You just used it in a small way to put down those words. And the device you wrote on is the product of it. Go live in the woods with no clothes and every time you have a coherent thought bump yourself on the head with a rock to break the habit and see where that all takes you. I think you'll find that you won't be doing quite as well as the birds in the field ...
Plato used a similar allegory of "The Cave" in "The Republic" Thank you for putting this up for us to watch.....I knew one of these conversations helped Lewis find his faith....he was content to be an Anglican for his life on earth till his death....I know this as I have met family members...
This is truly a great video; such a treat for the brain! Two great man with great ideas. I've always been a Tolkien fan, but it wasn't before I delved deeper into my faith that I realised how inspiring he is. Thank you for posting this!
at the time, Lewis was barely a Deist, so Tolkien, like Paul in Athens, was arguing at that level. And Tolkien, being a Catholic Christian, doesn't limit his intellectual life to a magic book with all the answers, but sees God in the Bible, in the church, in nature, and in everything good, beautiful and true...
We create because we where created
God is amazing
Reading Tolkien talking about faith and religion will make you shed a tear.
“But,” said Lewis, “myths are lies, even though lies breathed through silver.”
“No”, said Tolkien, “they are not.
...just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth.
“We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.”
“You mean”, asked Lewis, “that the story of Christ is simply a true myth, a myth that works on us in the same way as the others, but a myth that really happened? In that case”, he said, “I begin to understand.”
-J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography
"... just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth." ... So then why do you speak and why should I listen to you?
@@KevinOBrien101660 think Tolkien lays it out fairly well, don’t you think? Not sure if you’re asking me personally or rhetorically. I watched the video and it reminded me the part in the book where this taken.
The actor for Tolkien is doing a surprisingly good impression of him
CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien the two greatest influences on my life to date.
CS Lewis more but if it wasnt for Tolkien Lewis probably wouldve never written theological books.
If the four walls was all there were, then why would we imagine and dream of anything else? That's the image of God in us. Brilliant.
Started to write my comment to share my ideas, then it became too long for a comment so I continued on a notepad, and before realising it I was writing a full several-pages essay on the question and all its implications. Damn this is so interesting !
Good debates are like that.
Welcome to the rabbit-hole of Tolkien. One of the smarts blokes I know.
same
Best Mentalism Christopher Hitchens and CS Lewis
So where's your essay?
This is so interesting. I'm Mexican, and even though I understand most of it, I'd appreciate a lot if someone could write down in a comment the entire dialogue, so I could translate it to Spanish and show it to a couple of friends. That would be great. Thanks.
"We make things by the law in which we are made."
I've watched this video countless times and used it in apologetics work toward Christians of other denominational views. (I'm Reformed Presbyterian.) I did a commentary/reaction video on it on my channel. Thanks so much for keeping it up, it's one of my favorites.
I remember reading a Tolkien Tresury and at one point in the short biography about J.R.R Tolkien was they were debating once in a pub and one man finally asked C.S Lewis what they were talking about since it had been more then four hours and he simply replied "Dragons" then went right back to the converstion.
Love is much more than a feeling. it is much more than the chemical reactions in our bodies. it is a choice to put others needs ahead of our own among other things. to say it is just a feeling is an ignorant conclusion to a much greater reality.
What at load of romanticist rubbish haha
It does continue on in the actions taken outside of oneself. It is a force of will that proves itself it when challenged.
That's fine. How do you know that? By what method did you determine that to be true ...
Love is a decision.
Without being free to choose it you can’t have it
Wow these are two smart men
Lmao
Proverbs1-For gaining wisdom and instruction, for understanding words of insight;for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,doing what is right and just and fair;for giving prudence to those who are simple, knowledge and discretion to the young let the wise listen and add to their learning,and let the discerning get guidance for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Wow....what a sublime and insightful video. It covers such a treasure trove of transcendent truth. Watching this together with Jordon Peterson’s biblical series can really be a transformative gateway. I also just read Chesterton’s Orthodoxy which has a similar affect in altering and questioning the pervasive worldview of materialism, rationality, and relativism.
Same man, when i started reading myself, just some C.S Lewis His Lectures, Articles, and books. That blew away, a lot of what modern academia teaches today. And watching this, even though not the real convo. Really was intellectually Stimulating that's for sure. Wish we had more men like them in Modern Universities/Colleges.
Same here, guys: Peterson for the last year or so, and a couple runs through Chesterton's 'Orthodoxy,' thanks to my friend Pastor John. Chesterton is one of the greatest. Glad to see fellow travelers on the Journey. Wish we could get together for a meal sometime.
I think that Pratchett captured the answer the best. "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
"MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT!"-J.R.R. Tolkien
To take LOTR as an allegory of Christianity would be to disagree with him too:
"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author" - JRRT.
However you cannot ignore the nuances.
Is quite strange to see writers that have such different beliefs from the opposite end of the Pendulum yet they remain good friends
CS Lewis was known by his nickname, Jack, among most of his family and friends for most of his adult life. His character in the biopic Shadowlands is even credited as "Jack Lewis".
Tolkein was born in 1892, Lewis in 1898 but here they could be father and son.
I have not read so much Tolkien (though I am, continue to be, and will always be Catholic), but, I've been reading A LOT of CS Lewis lately. He was a very good writer.
They didn't write fiction. They wrote myths. Myth and fiction aren't synonomous. And, neither of them would've conceded with the statement that their myth was their own.
Good! Catholic, agnostic or just a dreamer, one can easily appreciate this :)
or jewish and muslim or A Hindu or buddhist or sento or animistic or paganistic and even an atheist
And a Christian, just like me . Anyone who is not a fool
Absolutely! I was raised a Catholic, am now a respectful agnostic, and have always been a dreamer haha. I think the only dislike of this video could be by those disrespectful... not that all atheists are disrespectful by nature.. but I posit that they are disrespectful of reason.. for to be an atheist is a logical fallacy in that you are using the same faith in something you do not know to assert the otherside of the existence of a supreme being. I should clarify, this in and of itself is not disrespectful, but to militantly assert that you are correct in your assumption/belief and all others heretics is no better than the fanatical theist starting wars over doctrine that these same people so often cast aspersions upon. This one mans opinion, anyways :)
Imagination, Creativity, Morality...
Meanings are spiritual issues.
We are indeed living in the "Matrix," and the Divine Storyteller has created all of this in order to share His love beyond the limits of this "History." That's why our reality appears finite, so that He can train us to desire infinity, and His meaningful Story gives us a context for living happily ever after.
Such a great act to watch
Starting immediately with set up for arguement between two legendary literary figues.👍🧡
"Surprised By Joy" ~ CS Lewis
Whatever you might say about that, and there are a number of significant flaws in the film adaptation, among all the cinematic beauty and great performances -- the films have sent a lot of people back to the books who might never have read them. And that's hard to complain about.
anyone has the specific sources that inspired this scene? I know it takes from Tolkien's "on fairy tales" but what else?
It's a famous conversation, it happened in the early hours of September 20, 1931 in the grounds of Magdalen College Oxford. There was another man, Hugo Dyson, present. If I know anything of the form here (FWIIW my parents met at Oxford in this period, they were Catholics, and I grew up with the legend of Tolkien) it followed an evening's hard drinking ---
@@pwmiles56 Thank you so much!
This video seems confused about who was John Tolkien and who was Clive Lewis. Tolkien was six years older than Lewis; however the man who appears older refers to what appears to be the younger man as Jack. As for an account of this incident I found this online sullivanfiles.net/lewis/mythastruth.pdf ….I'm currently reading the fascinating volume, C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, by Joseph Pearce (with whom I had the pleasure of chatting over dinner one time). I was familiar with the general outlines of Lewis's conversion to Christianity (he being my favorite writer), but the way Pearce described it was very interesting and thought-provoking, in terms of my own (and Lewis's) interest in the relationship of Romanticism and Mythology to Christianity. I would like to cite some of it: -------------------------------------------------------------------
This meeting, which was to have such a revolutionary impact on Lewis's life, took place on 19 September 1931 after Lewis had invited Tolkien and Dyson to dine at his rooms in Magdalen College. After dinner the three men went for a walk beside the river and discussed the nature and purpose of myth. Lewis explained that he felt the power of myths, but that they were ultimately untrue. As he expressed it to Tolkien, myths were 'lies, even though lies breathed through silver.'
'No,' Tolkien replied emphatically. 'They are not.'
A decisive discussion between Tolkien, Dyson and Lewis did take place, but this is not a transcript of it. No transcript exists AFAIK, and the contents of this dialogue are pulled from other sources, as you supposed. See other replies.
The nearest you will get to a summary of the discussion is what Lewis writes in the autobiographical account of his path from childhood to conversion (never intended to be a full autobiography): "Surprised by joy".
In that book, Lewis gives his own technical definition of "joy". q.v.
It has nothing to do with Joy Davidman, whom he much later married, although it is an amusing coincidence.
Lewis's definition of joy:
ruclips.net/video/x21aTd36QMo/видео.html
well, it doesn't mean it has a secret and/or a precise meaning. Tolkien was against allegory. And he wasn't fond of religious education through books (like the fantasy precursors or Lewis). But it's a work of a pious catholic, and of course, the worldview, the velues, the Hope, the Sacrifice... are obviously christian themes he profondly believed in.
I like Tolkien's work and I like myths. I even do think there is on some level truth to myths and stories...but I can't deny watching this just served to remind me how painfully stupid even people with great imaginations can be. Or maybe especially people with great imaginations, if they're eager to fool themselves. What makes Christian myths more interesting or true than those about Dionysos? Well nothing really. Except maybe more surviving text and worshipers. The rest is personal preference.
Imagine a debate... Richard dawkins vs J.R.R. Tolkien... just imagine....:)
Tolkein's use of "myth" in a technical poetic sense was a mistake. It caused and causes people to focus on the wrong sense of the word, instead of on the point he was making. Of course Lewis understood. But most moderns, who literally cannot think, get hung up on this term and derive the wrong message. Sad, but true. Simply using different language would have resulted in his reaching a lot more people with this important truth. Surprising, since he was a profoundly brilliant linguist.
But the English word Myth is such a beautiful word though. why cant we
still use it to refer to something deeper.
He is referring to 1 (not 2) William, dear boy:
1.
a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
"ancient Celtic myths"
synonyms: folk tale, story, folk story, legend, tale, fable, saga, allegory, parable, tradition, lore, folklore; More
2.
a widely held but false belief or idea.
"the belief that evening primrose oil helps to cure eczema is a myth, according to dermatologists"
Right, but I believe he was only trying to reach Jack(CS Lewis), not everyone else. It's a personal conversation.
h0gg0
h0gg0,
I know. But few even know that definition, but rather automatically think of definition 2.
Sean Anthony
That's a good point. However, these conversations between Lewis and Tolkien have become quite famous. And when folks hear Tolkien use the word "myth" , they often just do not grasp what he meant, but infer almost the opposite. That's what I have seen.
I really love this. As I read the lord of the rings, I’m almost overwhelmed with how wonderful it is to read stories about courage and resisting temptation and truly good stories about Noble actions and heroism. Things I didn’t enjoy when I was a vapid atheist, I now enjoy with such childlike wonder. I wish so many people could be persuaded to see God and be fueled by these great stories of acting pleasing according to his will.
better than the Tolkien movie
The dialogue was also key in Tolkien's remaking Akallabeth into an Earth-remake; putting the Straight Road into/through Outer Space; and equating the quest for the Blessed Realm removed from the circles of the world to the quest to push out to the Final Frontier.
Another confusing factor here is that Lewis has come down to us as a pre-eminent Christian apologist known for his works like The Screwtape Letters and Mere Christianity, while Tolkien is known only (to most modern readers) by The Rings novels. Also, these actors/characters look very different in age, while Tolkien was just six years older than Lewis (1892; 1898 births respectively). This is a wonderful showing of mentoring, and witnessing to someone on their level and where they are at in life.
Beautiful conversation on the creation of spirit, how the thought of mankind in its free thinking form can become One with the universe.
This is a great discussion and very well acted for such modest means. I was raised a Catholic, am now a respectful agnostic, and have always been a dreamer haha. I think the only dislike of this video could be by those disrespectful... not that all atheists are disrespectful by nature.. but I posit that they are disrespectful of reason.. for to be an atheist is a logical fallacy in that you are using the same faith in something you do not know to assert the otherside of the existence of a supreme being. I should clarify, this in and of itself is not disrespectful, but to militantly assert that you are correct in your assumption/belief and all others heretics is no better than the fanatical theist starting wars over doctrine that these same people so often cast aspersions upon. This one mans opinion, anyways :)
Well once you take into consideration, that Hobbits are closely related to Men, descendants, long since removed; it is said, that Gollum is "one of the river-folk" it can be assumed that, that he is of a race that has remained somewhere in between men and hobbits.
To learn from the master of myth from the beginning of time: Joseph Campbell.
Ah Tolkien and Lewis. Two greats in fantasy. My inspirations.
ok
& I believe the proper response is "thank you"
The presentation is more or less as described by Humphrey Carpenter--but the actors are all wrong physically. Lewis was heavy and balding; Tolkien was, in Lewis' words, "whispy" and with a full head of hair. The producer and director might have research this easily enough.
About that; I grew up reading 19th century authors , or those who still had a foot in that era: Edgar Rice Burroughs, James Fennimore Cooper, Jules Verne, A Conan Doyle, & JRR Tolkien. Even Marvel Comics when Stan Lee was still at the helm. I became addicted early to epic stilted prose. In fact, I tended to talk that way when I was young.
Pompous? Yeah; if the shoe fits, gotta wear it; stuffy, formal, ceremonial, archaic; kinda like LOTR (my fave book)
Tolkien is right. There is a fundamental truth encoded in various myths and legends of human cultures. Just recently we've discovered that Australian Aborigines and their stories of flood are in fact a memory of true event, which was a rise of sea level as far as 18 000 years to 7000 years ago. How many events still wait to be decoded or just acknowledged by science?
On the other hand, I don't agree with Tolkien that there is a supernaturality in the world. I think we are just extremly sophisticated machines of biology and there really is no higher purpouse in everything. Well, he is partialy right I think. What we percieve as "supernatural" is nothing but "unknown". This universe operates under certain laws, there may just be laws that we don't know about, or even those we can't percieve through our senses. Magic can be advanced technology, gods could be aliens. Is it supernatural? I don't think so.
Quite right, as Arthur C. Clarke once remarked "Any sufficiently advanced science/technology is indistinguishable from magic"
I doubt a very sophisticated machine can be creative, in the end it's just a machine.
Going past the suburban houses you could say that the Baggins with Bilbo and Frodo are like the British people in that they are excited to go adventures (the creation of the British Empire), but like to come home at the same time.
+Kelly Norman it's quite the opposit, Hobbits aren't supposed to be excited about adventures, they're supposed not to care about the outer world, outside their garden :)
Olorin Dreamer I didn't mean all Hobbits as you can see I put Frodo and Bilbo specifically as they are excited at the prospect of adventure, but, especially Bilbo, are quite happy when they go back to the comforts of home.
Kelly Norman well then we could say that of every empire that existed
+Kelly Norman I agree about the suburbs! (:D Love their fantasy books!
Hobbits didn’t go around slaughtering, enslaving, stealing land from and colonising indigenous people. The British Empire was an evil sickness and the opposite of Christianity.
"Should have wrote..."
Lewis and Tolkien both would have a word with you about your phrasing.
Oh, no, of course you can't trust the Jews to know their own history, especially since the tale of the Exodus was written down by the man who led it.
But if Jewish sources aren't good enough for you, I refer you to the Merneptah Stele.
That was pretty amazing actually. Seeing a transfiguration like that. Wish we had more people in academia like Tolkien. And the late C.S Lewis.
Just so you know, the old guy is Tolkien. Not Lewis.
In India they say " Play of Consciousness" this play of action can also be thought of as a Theater play
Who knows how imaginations gossamer wings impinge on the shape of things. John Cannon
I do recall JRR Tolkien believed the majority of the LOTR fan base did not grasp what the his books were truly about. The fact people dont look further into the mythos which they are reading is (I mean no offense) of their own fault. I myself, have been studying for a little over a week now on JRR Tolkien's writings, and there is a great deal of myths and biblical information, most seem to overlook. I strongly urge studying further on Mr. Tolkien's work.
Many of the points Tolkien makes can be found in his 1939 Andrew Lang lecture “On Faërie Stories”, easily found online and of course in his letters.
Just a thing around 1:40 , there are 4 dimensions (time is a very real dimension) & we have more than just 5 senses (detecting heat, pressure, sense of gravity etc. It’s just the traditional ‘five senses’ are the most easily identified)
Not a big deal for the video just wanted to share something interesting.
Delving deeper into Christian Theology as a student I found parallels between Tolkien's theology and the theology of pre-monolatric Israel. Before Joshia, the twelve tribes worshipped "El Elyom" (The Most High) akin Eru Ilúvatar, while worshipping YHWH akin Valar like Manwé or Aulé. Sometimes they even associated Ashera (Varda or Yavannah) as YHWH's wife. Only through the YHWH-alone movement El Elyom and YHWH merged and became a middle thing between the absolutely transcendent and fairly uninvolved Eru (and the ONE time He intervened... Oh boy did He shake Arda up, literally!) and the immanent and ever-working Valar. The Valar, however stayed as the top tier of the divine order after YHWH. Many times the Bible tells us of "Sons of GOD" or of a "Divine Council". Jewish theology really saw a special council made up by gods (Capital G reserved for YHWH only), who are His advisors but also entirely answerable to Him. Suddenly "You shall have no other gods before me" makes sense: "You shall not prefer any other gods to me." That is: "YHWH alone deserves worship. And while the others may recieve reverence, the faithful shall not forget to worship above all else the One True God."
lewis's argument in this skit is just "if we can think of things that do not exist, is it truer to think that we can come up with new things or that we can think of them because they exist outside of the normal world we can see" and he just decides for some reason that they must exist somewhere instead of us just being able to create things in our minds. His arguments are all allegory and 1% logic that relies on "facts" that he presumes as true without any evidence of it being so. Sounds very nice and poetic but it's just a lot of assumptions
It’s just the ontological argument and an appeal to emotion. Perhaps, I am too much of a materialist to be swayed.
EEEAAHH!!! He's talking about Plato's Cave!!!
Jordan Peterson echoes Tolkien's lessons here. I'm glad we have people like him still alive.
TheLastAbacus I was looking through the comments here to see if anyone noticed the similarities between Jordan Peterson and this video. Glad to see I'm not alone.
Kyle Olsen JP can go and suck a fuck, he's an impetuous imp compared to Tolkien.
N T and Bishop Williamson is not as Good as Pius XII it doesn’t make him or his work worthless.
Jordan Peterson is an atheist commie shill.
Myths were part of elementary grammar and social studies for me.The teachers made it apparent that they were tools for literature and cultural storytelling.
please please this video is one of my favorite and I want to translate the subtitles in french so that I can share it with family and friends, but I can't, the contribution mode isn't activated !!!if you see this comment please activate the mode !
I enabled contribution mode. I also enabled French subtitles, though I don't know what that does. Thank you, Marie!
What movie is this from?
It's so funny how the way Tolkien talks, you can just hear his voice in the pages of the Hobbit.
And the debate goes ever on and on.
golden ratio. Also, the more symmetrical the object, the more beautiful it will be perceived by us.
Was this taken from actual dialogues of Tolkien or is this a Roman Catholic reinterpretation of his philosophy? I love this, so I do thank whomever the originator of this fine piece of theology was. Call it sillyness, for all you know I could be some heavily medicated patient, but as a lifelong atheist who grew up in Byzantine Orthodoxy and studied Anselm at university, I must admit, this sheds light on my thoughts. Thank you for this.
you do know Tolkien was a devout Catholic right? do some research before painting someones beliefs before making a video concerning such
I believe the dialogue is based on letters sent between the two. Also I don't see anything that would be contradictory. Any specific examples?
I'm assuming it's because Tolkein seems to be defending myths? unless he doesn't know which one is Tolkein and which is Lewis.
No no no, he is not defending myths, but the contents of said myths - the Truth! And when it comes to the 'ultimate myth', Tolkien claims it to be true! They are using the word myth not in the sense of a false idea but rather in its definition of being "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events." They know tolkein was a devout Catholic, and more so they know CS Lewis became a Christian also! You have misunderstood the conversation.
Stick-It Productions. He’s defending truth not myths lol this conversation went right over your head. He explains that the ‘myths/stories’ of the Bible are rooted in facts/history.
The Earth was created before the stars.
Jesus's contemporary sources include Matthew, Mark, and John, while Luke and Paul knew people who knew Him, and Flavius Josephus and Pliny the Elder also spoke of Him and/or His Church.
Amrthean, Science cannot study what it cannot measure. For example, love, beauty, reason, being. Do such things exist? Even for an atheist? If so, then there are some things science cannot study. If not, then atheism is mere materialism.
@Ashiman12 As the Greeks used to do in their tragedies. Now, you see, dogma doesn't necessarily require closing your mind, it merely embellishes the identity of the person. I myself am Catholic, as Tolkien, but there is more to it all than just a bunch of books and stories. I have been studying Norse mythology, does that make me a disciple of Odin or Thor? No, I merely open my eyes to the possibilities. But no religion, whether great or humble, comes without practice.