I've always wondered how it's possible for my Catholic court priest to "fabricate a claim" on literally the Vatican. Wouldn't this be considered, like, at least a tiny bit sacreligious at the time?
Give enough of a reason and you’ll have supposedly faithful and devoted knights of god ransack another Christian town. Back when there were two popes that would have been the most realistic time for a fabricated claim on the Vatican.
Canterbury: the buff on diplomacy is actually tied to the first petty king of Kent to convert to Christianity, the agreement with the franks was that they would offer him to marry into French nobility if he allowed his bride to remain Christian. She later persuaded him to become Christian and to erect the church in Canterbury (one of England’s first post-Roman cathedrals).
And we can't forget about St. Augustine of Canterbury who was a missionary giant in Southern England. The letters exchanged between him and Pope St. Gregory the Great formed the basis for a lot more standardization of practices within the Catholic Church in terms of lay practice, if not liturgical standardization. One of my favorites is that Augustine encountered the practice of women being forced to abstain from receiving the Eucharist when menstruating. Gregory was having none of this and essentially wrote, "Menstruation is natural, let them receive". This led to that particular folk practice to die in western Christendom pretty early on where it was being practiced.
Concerning cologne: cologne was an immensely important christian sight even as far back as the 9th century. Cologne was the sight of the martyrdom St. Ursula and her (supposedly) 11,000 maiden companions in the 4th century, and was immensely important in the christianization of the Saxons under Charlemagne. Their archbishops where for a time the highest ecclesiastic authority in Germany (think like the archbishops of Canterbury in England). And most importantly: Cologne was a flourishing mercantile city, many people visited which in turn made it more popular as a pilgrimage destination for the common folk. I think its status as a holy sight in CK 3 is very much deserved, the city didn't became a holy sight after the bones of the 3 wise were brought there, they were brought because of colognes importance as a cristian sight.
Also Cologne is still a Catholic city. Only about half of Germany converted to Protestantism (primarily the North and the East). While Germany is much more secular today, there are still a great number of Catholics in Germany today.
yeah but that dont make it a more important place for catholicisme than other city. for instance paris had its bishop martyrised too and he did miracles
Santiago's bonus on hiring Holy Order's is mainly because of the Order of Santiago, one of the most important holy orders in Iberia that still exists nowadays. Would like to add that the 3 wise men are very popular in Spain too, we have a holiday the 5th of January, where men dressed as the 3 wise men parade on all towns giving candy and gifts to the kids.
A candidate for a Catholic holy site could be Trondheim/Nidaros as it became a really popular destination for pilgrims of the Northern Catholic world after King Olav Haraldsson was delcared a saint and martyr. There is still a pilgrim road and home in the city as it still receives Catholic pilgrims to this day.
I think that in the 1066 start date, either a cathedral is built or can be built by Catholics, making it the same in practice the Swedish Norse holy site. 867 start makes no sense for it to be build able.
@@Apollo1989V Maybe some kind of trigger related to the christianization of scandinavia event that makes it buildable when whoever owns it becomes catholic?
I think you can also add that the reason for the -10% for the hiring of military orders for holding Santiago is because that is the only holy site that was connected with a military order. Although the site for the seat of power of the order was contested in Ucles and Leon and not in Santiago de Compostela.
Not to mention that Saint James is the Saint of the Reconquista. The Catholic warriors believed that he came to their aid against the Muslims at the (mythical) Battle of Clavijo, hence his aspect of Santiago Matamoros/Saint James the Moorslayer.
10:54 Just a quick heads-up. Although it is true that large parts of Germany have been protestant since the reformation, this is not true for Cologne, as the Rheinland including Cologne has stayed Catholic throughout. Therefore saying that just like Canterbury, Cologne is no longer in “Catholic hands” isn’t quite true. As an added fun fact, this Catholic heritage is also why Cologne/the Rheinland’s most famous festival, carnaval, is celebrated here and not in protestant areas.
Tbh the Rhineland was more mixed. Most states on the left bank of the Rhine, like the Electorate of Cologne, the City of Cologne and the Duchy of Julich, were Catholic The Electorate of Cologne was highly contested in the 16th century as three of their archbishops converted to Protestantism at some point, with the last of them (von Waldburg) even trying to declare himself the Duke of the state and turn it into his own personal dynastic domain, leading to the Cologne War where he was utterly crushed and ever since then, the title of Archbishop of Cologne was given to the younger children of the Bavarian Wittelsbach family. The city of Cologne was separate from the Electorate of Cologne (the Archbishop of Cologne in fact resided in Bonn) and it run its own religious policy which tolerated a large Protestant minority (which was rather rare for a Free Imperial City at the time). The right bank of the Rhine on the other hand was more mixed. You see, at the eve of the reformation, the duchies of Julich, Cleves, Mark and Berg were ruled by the same Duke belonging to the La Marck family. This family, influenced by the principles of humanism, allowed Catholics and Protestants to worship freely across their realm, resulting in a more mixed population. The Dukes themselves were all Catholic, but many of their relatives converted to Protestantism. Berg was mostly Catholic though Protestants were common in both the Southern parts of the Duchy as well as in the city of Düsseldorf. Meanwhile, Mark was largely Protestant, as were the two imperial cities of Dortmund and Essen in the middle of them. Cleves (on the Lower Rhine and covering both banks) largely became Protestant too due to its proximity to the Netherlands. After the death of the last La Marck duke, an inheritance dispute started. You see, the last duke had two sisters, the eldest was married to the Prussian Duke and was Protestant, while the younger was married to the Count Palatine of Neuburg who was also Protestant, but her son was a very devout Catholic convert and went on to claim the duchy on his own with Spanish support. War broke out and eventually they agreed to give the future Count Palatine of Neuberg the Catholic areas (Berg and Julich) while giving the future Duke of Prussia (at the time just the Elector of Brandenburg) the Protestant areas (Mark and Cleves) And yes, I am a huge HRE nerd.
I think Canterbury's buff is similar to the Vatican's buff, as the most likely reason Canterbury is lost is because it was captured by one of the various vikings. I imagine a Norseman holding a county so close to the HRE and France would cause a lot of blame gaming across the Catholic north. "How did we let Canterbury fall? Why hasn't anyone reclaimed it?" And obviously, religious vassals would be quite upset with a raiding band of vikings being so close to their churches, and who is responsible for fending them off?
I think that the holy sites need to be stratified in each of their own religions. 2 of them should be major sites and something that is "closer" to the source of the religion with massive bonuses and the others as minor sites that give fervor.
cologne was already a major pilgimdestination since charlemagne. Canterburys status as a holy site seems a lot more premature to me, since the whole Thomas Becket story took place over 100 years after the 1066 start date as you explained yourself in the video. A much bigger problem with the christian faiths in general would be the fact that before the 11th century the great schism between catholic and orthodox church had not even happend yet and the position of the bishop of rome was still far less dominant.
When the game was launched, the Asatru would reform their religion too early in the game. Their holy sites used to be Uppsala (in Sweden), Lejre (in Denmark), Paderborn (in Saxony), Zeeland (in the Netherlands), and Ranaheim (in Norway). Three of these begin as Asatru in the earliest start date with the other two being easy to claim. They replaced Lejre and Zeeland with Jorvik (in England) and Kiev (in Ruthenia) due to the latter two's distance from Scandinavia (meaning that they're less likely to come under the control of the same ruler).
It could be argued that there would be no seperate Orthodox or Catholic religions at the 867 start, as it was before the Schism officially. But, it could also be argued that the seeds for their division had been there for centuries prior when Iconoclasm was rampant in the East.
I feel like some religions there should be local "cults". for catholics as a whole the holy sites should be Jerusalem, the holy sepulcher, the vatican, damascus Ephesus, corinth etc etc. But for Germans and Franks, Cologne and Aachen should be holy sites. For spanish Santiago. Norsmen Nidaros. Maybe allow for new local holy sites to be created depending on saints, Crusades and other such things
This exactly . The reforming of religion is interesting but a huge part of the expanse of Christianity was how it incorporated local culture . Almost all big kingdoms and cultures have constructed a local holy site that might not be as important as Jerusalem but I'd wager that for Italians cologne was not essential or Santiago for the polish especially in the 9th century
I think one area the game lacks is that holding the holy site of another religion, particularly a hostile or evil faith should grant some bonuses when fighting that faith too perhaps. As well as give you some kind of policy choice on whether or not to allow pilgrims of that religion to pass through your lands unharmed.
I just pressed a claim on Roma as Matilda and the pope sent me a long ahh message excommunicating me the second I declared war 😂 shoutout to to HRE Kaiser Heinrich IV tho, he was like “I got you, fifth cousin. You’re safe, just don’t go try to reform the western Roman Empire”
10:01 Not only in Germany, in many Christian countries (mainly Catholic) during the Christmas season an altar is made where stone or clay figures are placed as a recreation of the birth of the baby Jesus. IIRC this tradition was created by Spain.
@@historyinbits yeah, we do the signs on doors in England too. the letters are for Caspar, Melichor and Balthazar (the three wise men). Its a sign of good luck
It's a thing in most Catholic countries. In Brazil people aren't as thrilled by the 6th of January, but it still marks the end of Christmas, it's not a holiday (like Easter, Christmas or Corpus Christi are), but it's the date when everyone takes off their Christmas decorations :)
Holy order hire costs could also be because north German and English crusaders tended to stop off in Santiago/Christian Iberia to resupply. There sometimes aiding them in the reconquista
It's meant to represent the Sagrada Familia, a large basilica located there. However, it didn't begin construction until the 1880s, so I'm not sure why Paradox even considered adding it.
This is amazing! I would love to see you cover the holy sights of other religions too. Only got the game about 2 months ago and expected it to be a bit more like civ. As a history buff it exceeds my expectation. This video really compliments the game. Subbed and going to binge watch the rest now. Oh and also love the music you use.
As a Muslim I find it weird how the 3 biggest Muslim faiths are Ashari which Is a Aqidah Ibadi which Is a sect and Ismaili which is a Madhab which are different things.
@@TZMPaquette Sunni, Shia,Quranist and Ibadi. I dont mind wether they decide on sects madhabs or Aqidah but I just find it weird that they use a mix as a Ibadi can be a Ashari at the same time.
@@Riskofdisconnect That’s in CK3, in CK3 is more divided, Sunni for example: is divided into Ashari, Maturidi and Muwalladi. The first two are Schools of Theology, but ironically both the founders are either not born yet or too young in the game start dates, while Muwalladi is just a term used for muslims in Iberia.
the orthodox holy sights would be pretty easy to explain. they’re jerusalem, rome, constantinople, antioch, and alexandria. the pentarchy, the seats of the five most important bishops in early christianity (at least according to emperor justinian)
at a guess the idea is to attempt to create interesting gameplay. for instance the scandinavians taking kent helps to destablise the entire of christendom; making further expanding on the british isles and even the continent easier.
Regarding the Catholic holy sites, the flavour does check out somewhat. Cologne increasing control and cultural development represents it being the core of the Franks under Charlemagne. Santiago decreasing Holy Order cost makes a ton of a sense as the spiritual home of the Reconquista etc.
I think the purpose of the buff for Canterbury is to reference how virtue works in most religions, a scenario or past event is met with sin and the faithful are therefore called to the virtue whichs fight said sin i.e wrath being supplemented with kindness
Your definitely underselling Canterbury, Thomas Beckett was quite late, Canterbury was already a massive center for religious worship as it had the tomb of St Augustine, who bought Christianity to England and St Agustine Abbey, and who also founded the Kings schools which is the oldest continually open school in the world, founded in 597, the school and the cathedral share the same buildings. So beckett reinforced a canon but it was already the Holiest site in England before Becketts Death, and continues you to be a place of religion even today, source, Its my home town, Canterbury cathedral is my nearest church (and that includes all the other small chruches and shrines that scatter around the city, most of which are over 1000 years old)
Id also like to note that from a gameplay perspective canterbury, Santiago, Jerusalem and to a far lesser extend cologne are all places under threat by foreign faiths, for cantubury the invasion of england in 761 start date by the norse and the asatru faith, Santiago being under underthreat in the struggle for iberia, and cologne by both asatru and slovenskian/vlidist faiths whilst Jerusalem being occupied by the umayyads, losing places like Canterbury would probably make people lose some sense of faith in the religion
1- problably rome is not as strong as it should be since its a holy site that is pretty much always in catholic hands unless there is player intervention (in fact i dont think i have ever seen any ruler christian or otherwise declare war on the pope). So buffing it might make it to OP since it would always stay eith the catholics 2- its possible that the cantebury buffs might be an ironic buff, since it became a holy site thanks to disagreements with the church so kinda as a joke having this holy site makes them like you 3- i think some nice bonus for jerusalem would be faster convertion, better opnion of other catholics, better demage against faiths considered hostile or worse or better terrain supply/movent/buffs overall to armies in arid terrain (as a way to represent the ease of travel catholics gained from conquering jerusalem, both for pilgrims but also since the kingdom of jerusalem helped the movement of troops in the following crusades)
It would be cool if you did this with the major faiths too, for instance Ash'ari and Ismaili (the only difference being Ash'asri has Baghdad and Isamilia Kufi). Hinduism (maybe Buddhism too) and Judaism too. I've always wondered why Hindus and Jews value those sites. Honestly just wish PDX just added a short description.
For insular Christianity, I'd argue Lindisfarne would be more important to them rather than Canterbury. Lindisfarne being founded by one of their own, St. Aidan, who's see essentially became a place of learning and produced many more saints.
Just checked it and I think it'd be cool if Medhamsted in England was a holy site as in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles 675AD it says Pope Agatho made the Church there a place where those unable to go to Roma whether by illness, poverty or infirmity could go to receive the same forgiveness of Christ and St Peter that he should have had he gone to Rome, though then again I have not played the game in question myself but would be a cool historical detail
One city I kind of wish were actually a Holy Site (over Canterbury which was honestly, not that important for the greater Catholic world) is Paris. Why you ask ? It's simple : during the Middle Ages (especially the late one), outside of being the center of what was dubbed "the eldest daughter of the church", it's mostly because of it's University of Theology which was the greatest in Europe by a MASSIVE margin. You may think it's an odd reason but let me explain : I think it's widely known that Paris was by far the largest western city of the era, growing to somewhere between 150-200k before the plague (most probable estimates), well ...... around 10-15k of those were theology students. That's basically where the upper echelons of the Catholic clergy got their education and it was of central interest to the church, so much so that there once was a conflict hetween them and the authorities (sorry, my course on these was a few years back so memory is kinda fuzzy on the details) and the teachers and students in protest decided to go on a strike, and the Pope and cardinals freaked out, because that could potentially cut them off an entire generation of clergymen. Normally I'm not sure I would argue a Holy Site would be the best for that one, I'd rather have something more towards Universities and rheir relationships with the clergy and other "learned" professions, but until then I think it's a better approximation (plus, I don't know you, but even in terms of gameplay, I think the catholics would freak out a bit moee about the loss of France than that of England ......)
I want to see the holy sites become much more dynamic: They SHOULD be able to change over time, and that includes diminishing the significance of certain sites. In 867 for example, it makes MUCH more sense for Catholicism to have Iona as one of their holy sites than either a Cambridge or Cologne. Over time though, Iona diminished in significance as a holy site. Likewise, Baghdad lost a lot of its religious significance to Sunniism when the Mongols pretty much razed it.
Could you do a CK3 Caliphate hisrory video on the 2 Caliphate titles of the Muslim faiths from Muhammad to the present but can you please unclude the 867 start date please because they are also deserve some coverage
The whole notion of needing 3 holy sites in your domain to reform the religion was always a bit weird (and limiting, from a gameplay perspective), and likely historically inaccurate. Might be interesting to compare this mechanic against the historical examples.
Just like Paganism it's for Historical accuracy reasons, like the Roman Byzantine Emperors were all Hellenic until Constantine I & Julian the Apostate who was the last Hellenic Emperor of Rome. But also if you create a CK3 character you can make your faith be Hellenism
i imagine that the English holy site would better represent how after the Anglican Shyzsm catholicism "lost those bonuses" Rome is also a home of education and administration that no douth would improve catholics human and economic development, consider how the church was almost a bank
Thankfully irl Jerusalem has remained a de facto neutral zone so the Temple Mount and related holy structures remain standing unmolested even as the city shifts around them
I liked the create new religion mechanic,but it lacks some aspects still.For example you cant chose your holy site in your wish,you will still use the main holy sites the religion you have created from. 2nd chosing a symbol for your religion is very limited and need to be added more,especially for a game like Crusader Kings 3.
Colonge and Canterbury were far more regional than anything else A Catholic from Poland or Italy for example wouldn't know much of or care about places like Canterbury
@historyinbits the hire cost reduction in Santiago for holy orders, might be due to the Knights of Santiago whom were founded in 1170, whilst they were not situated in Santiago, it is the resting place of their patron saint, and they hired themselves out to protect local pilgrims. so that does make somewhat sense of the holy order hire in that regards .
Jerusalem wasn't an important holy site for the muslims for most of history in real life. The exceptions were Umayyad and early Ottoman periods. Pilgrimage to it was mostly a local phenomenon.
@@1992zorroThe symbol of Christianity is Jesus suffering in the cross tho, not him resurrecting, in fact people in general underestimates what happened after the resurrection.
What! Köln/Cologne and/or Germany is not catholic? Cologne is one of the most Catholic cities in Germany, and Germany is traditionally half Catholic, half Lutheran! The west and south of present-day Germany is predominantly Catholic, the north and east Protestant. While faith and church membership declined and immigrants brought their religions with them, the history and culture are still strongly CATHOLIC AND LUTHERAN!
It is usually utilized to designate the Latin Catholic Church, which represents 99% of all Catholics, the rest being apart of the 23 sui juris Catholic Churches of the East, all in full communion with Rome. But yes, it’s also misused a lot.
I've always wondered how it's possible for my Catholic court priest to "fabricate a claim" on literally the Vatican. Wouldn't this be considered, like, at least a tiny bit sacreligious at the time?
Give enough of a reason and you’ll have supposedly faithful and devoted knights of god ransack another Christian town. Back when there were two popes that would have been the most realistic time for a fabricated claim on the Vatican.
Court priest: "Anti-pope time"
In my current run the last pope had the Nickname of "The Devil", so he was the sacreligious one, not me XD
Good question indeed
One of the downsides of changing it from a chancellor's job in ck2 to a priest's job in ck3 lmao
Canterbury: the buff on diplomacy is actually tied to the first petty king of Kent to convert to Christianity, the agreement with the franks was that they would offer him to marry into French nobility if he allowed his bride to remain Christian. She later persuaded him to become Christian and to erect the church in Canterbury (one of England’s first post-Roman cathedrals).
Super interesting, thank you for the info!
And we can't forget about St. Augustine of Canterbury who was a missionary giant in Southern England. The letters exchanged between him and Pope St. Gregory the Great formed the basis for a lot more standardization of practices within the Catholic Church in terms of lay practice, if not liturgical standardization. One of my favorites is that Augustine encountered the practice of women being forced to abstain from receiving the Eucharist when menstruating. Gregory was having none of this and essentially wrote, "Menstruation is natural, let them receive". This led to that particular folk practice to die in western Christendom pretty early on where it was being practiced.
Concerning cologne: cologne was an immensely important christian sight even as far back as the 9th century. Cologne was the sight of the martyrdom St. Ursula and her (supposedly) 11,000 maiden companions in the 4th century, and was immensely important in the christianization of the Saxons under Charlemagne.
Their archbishops where for a time the highest ecclesiastic authority in Germany (think like the archbishops of Canterbury in England).
And most importantly: Cologne was a flourishing mercantile city, many people visited which in turn made it more popular as a pilgrimage destination for the common folk.
I think its status as a holy sight in CK 3 is very much deserved, the city didn't became a holy sight after the bones of the 3 wise were brought there, they were brought because of colognes importance as a cristian sight.
Very good input, thank you!
Also Cologne is still a Catholic city. Only about half of Germany converted to Protestantism (primarily the North and the East). While Germany is much more secular today, there are still a great number of Catholics in Germany today.
yeah but that dont make it a more important place for catholicisme than other city. for instance paris had its bishop martyrised too and he did miracles
I often wish that there would be a small description of the various Holy Sites.
They often are or seem obscure
Kiiing
@@historyinbits Gotta support my boys out here💪
would it be better if Paradox gave their own flavor text of these description, or to simply just put in the related religious text containing them?
@@javelin1423 the former
On a pilgrimage to poopskria 🔥🔥
They are nowhere in the holy book but i assume they lit 🔥🔥🔥
Technically, Charles Martel was not even a king, but the mayor of the palace, a de facto but not de jure king.
You are right, thank you!
But mayors didn't only rule towns, he was something between a regent and a prime minister, I think
@@pc_suffering6941 mayor of the palace was a title for the prime minister.
no technically he was a HAMMER
@@AvidanTheExpositor True
Santiago's bonus on hiring Holy Order's is mainly because of the Order of Santiago, one of the most important holy orders in Iberia that still exists nowadays.
Would like to add that the 3 wise men are very popular in Spain too, we have a holiday the 5th of January, where men dressed as the 3 wise men parade on all towns giving candy and gifts to the kids.
A candidate for a Catholic holy site could be Trondheim/Nidaros as it became a really popular destination for pilgrims of the Northern Catholic world after King Olav Haraldsson was delcared a saint and martyr. There is still a pilgrim road and home in the city as it still receives Catholic pilgrims to this day.
Could be one for the later start :)
I think that in the 1066 start date, either a cathedral is built or can be built by Catholics, making it the same in practice the Swedish Norse holy site. 867 start makes no sense for it to be build able.
@@Apollo1989V Maybe some kind of trigger related to the christianization of scandinavia event that makes it buildable when whoever owns it becomes catholic?
@@toasterofdoom9629 I don't think that holy sites are dynamic. Could be wrong, but I believe that you cannot change them in-game.
@@whitehawk4099They should be dynamic tho', events should add or remove Holy Sites.
I think you can also add that the reason for the -10% for the hiring of military orders for holding Santiago is because that is the only holy site that was connected with a military order.
Although the site for the seat of power of the order was contested in Ucles and Leon and not in Santiago de Compostela.
Super interesting, thanks for the input!
Not to mention that Saint James is the Saint of the Reconquista. The Catholic warriors believed that he came to their aid against the Muslims at the (mythical) Battle of Clavijo, hence his aspect of Santiago Matamoros/Saint James the Moorslayer.
10:54 Just a quick heads-up. Although it is true that large parts of Germany have been protestant since the reformation, this is not true for Cologne, as the Rheinland including Cologne has stayed Catholic throughout. Therefore saying that just like Canterbury, Cologne is no longer in “Catholic hands” isn’t quite true. As an added fun fact, this Catholic heritage is also why Cologne/the Rheinland’s most famous festival, carnaval, is celebrated here and not in protestant areas.
Tbh the Rhineland was more mixed.
Most states on the left bank of the Rhine, like the Electorate of Cologne, the City of Cologne and the Duchy of Julich, were Catholic
The Electorate of Cologne was highly contested in the 16th century as three of their archbishops converted to Protestantism at some point, with the last of them (von Waldburg) even trying to declare himself the Duke of the state and turn it into his own personal dynastic domain, leading to the Cologne War where he was utterly crushed and ever since then, the title of Archbishop of Cologne was given to the younger children of the Bavarian Wittelsbach family.
The city of Cologne was separate from the Electorate of Cologne (the Archbishop of Cologne in fact resided in Bonn) and it run its own religious policy which tolerated a large Protestant minority (which was rather rare for a Free Imperial City at the time).
The right bank of the Rhine on the other hand was more mixed. You see, at the eve of the reformation, the duchies of Julich, Cleves, Mark and Berg were ruled by the same Duke belonging to the La Marck family. This family, influenced by the principles of humanism, allowed Catholics and Protestants to worship freely across their realm, resulting in a more mixed population. The Dukes themselves were all Catholic, but many of their relatives converted to Protestantism.
Berg was mostly Catholic though Protestants were common in both the Southern parts of the Duchy as well as in the city of Düsseldorf. Meanwhile, Mark was largely Protestant, as were the two imperial cities of Dortmund and Essen in the middle of them. Cleves (on the Lower Rhine and covering both banks) largely became Protestant too due to its proximity to the Netherlands.
After the death of the last La Marck duke, an inheritance dispute started. You see, the last duke had two sisters, the eldest was married to the Prussian Duke and was Protestant, while the younger was married to the Count Palatine of Neuburg who was also Protestant, but her son was a very devout Catholic convert and went on to claim the duchy on his own with Spanish support. War broke out and eventually they agreed to give the future Count Palatine of Neuberg the Catholic areas (Berg and Julich) while giving the future Duke of Prussia (at the time just the Elector of Brandenburg) the Protestant areas (Mark and Cleves)
And yes, I am a huge HRE nerd.
I think Canterbury's buff is similar to the Vatican's buff, as the most likely reason Canterbury is lost is because it was captured by one of the various vikings. I imagine a Norseman holding a county so close to the HRE and France would cause a lot of blame gaming across the Catholic north. "How did we let Canterbury fall? Why hasn't anyone reclaimed it?" And obviously, religious vassals would be quite upset with a raiding band of vikings being so close to their churches, and who is responsible for fending them off?
Good point!
I think that the holy sites need to be stratified in each of their own religions. 2 of them should be major sites and something that is "closer" to the source of the religion with massive bonuses and the others as minor sites that give fervor.
Great video! I'd love to see more episodes exploring the other faiths' holy sites
Thank you for the good feedback!
Gonna need videos on all the other faiths! Pagen religions like Zoroastrianism would be super interesting!
Zoroastrianism is indeed fascinating
Zoroastrianism is Pagan?
@@caniblmolstr452 depends on your point of view, it’s isn’t Abrahamic & it isn’t modern (relatively) so pagen to me!
@@jasonyoung2160 there are some similarities with Indian faiths. Some say it influenced second temple Judaism.
It is monotheistic (ish)
cologne was already a major pilgimdestination since charlemagne. Canterburys status as a holy site seems a lot more premature to me, since the whole Thomas Becket story took place over 100 years after the 1066 start date as you explained yourself in the video.
A much bigger problem with the christian faiths in general would be the fact that before the 11th century the great schism between catholic and orthodox church had not even happend yet and the position of the bishop of rome was still far less dominant.
I'd be interested in a video on how accurate the religion map is in both start dates and also the explanation of Ásatrú holy sites
We’ll look into it :)
When the game was launched, the Asatru would reform their religion too early in the game. Their holy sites used to be Uppsala (in Sweden), Lejre (in Denmark), Paderborn (in Saxony), Zeeland (in the Netherlands), and Ranaheim (in Norway). Three of these begin as Asatru in the earliest start date with the other two being easy to claim. They replaced Lejre and Zeeland with Jorvik (in England) and Kiev (in Ruthenia) due to the latter two's distance from Scandinavia (meaning that they're less likely to come under the control of the same ruler).
Ragnar's supposed death site for York.
It could be argued that there would be no seperate Orthodox or Catholic religions at the 867 start, as it was before the Schism officially. But, it could also be argued that the seeds for their division had been there for centuries prior when Iconoclasm was rampant in the East.
@@Cklert In this case, I think the main division of Catholicism is actually on Rites.
I feel like some religions there should be local "cults". for catholics as a whole the holy sites should be Jerusalem, the holy sepulcher, the vatican, damascus Ephesus, corinth etc etc. But for Germans and Franks, Cologne and Aachen should be holy sites. For spanish Santiago. Norsmen Nidaros. Maybe allow for new local holy sites to be created depending on saints, Crusades and other such things
This exactly .
The reforming of religion is interesting but a huge part of the expanse of Christianity was how it incorporated local culture .
Almost all big kingdoms and cultures have constructed a local holy site that might not be as important as Jerusalem but I'd wager that for Italians cologne was not essential or Santiago for the polish especially in the 9th century
The Cologne cathedral is still Catholic, as well as most of the Christian population of Cologne
I think one area the game lacks is that holding the holy site of another religion, particularly a hostile or evil faith should grant some bonuses when fighting that faith too perhaps. As well as give you some kind of policy choice on whether or not to allow pilgrims of that religion to pass through your lands unharmed.
I just pressed a claim on Roma as Matilda and the pope sent me a long ahh message excommunicating me the second I declared war 😂 shoutout to to HRE Kaiser Heinrich IV tho, he was like “I got you, fifth cousin. You’re safe, just don’t go try to reform the western Roman Empire”
10:01 Not only in Germany, in many Christian countries (mainly Catholic) during the Christmas season an altar is made where stone or clay figures are placed as a recreation of the birth of the baby Jesus. IIRC this tradition was created by Spain.
Also with drawing those weird signs on the doors?
@@historyinbits yeah, we do the signs on doors in England too. the letters are for Caspar, Melichor and Balthazar (the three wise men). Its a sign of good luck
@Benjamin Mitchell, actually, it's Christus Mansionem Benedicat (Christus segne dieses Haus) can't be bothered to translate it in English.
@@finnmuller9079 eh, thats just what we were told by our lay chaplain at school. enthusiastic man, but not always the smartest
It's a thing in most Catholic countries.
In Brazil people aren't as thrilled by the 6th of January, but it still marks the end of Christmas, it's not a holiday (like Easter, Christmas or Corpus Christi are), but it's the date when everyone takes off their Christmas decorations :)
We really want more of the videos about holy sites
Holy order hire costs could also be because north German and English crusaders tended to stop off in Santiago/Christian Iberia to resupply. There sometimes aiding them in the reconquista
Off-topic but the fact CK3 is already 3 years old and only now really coming into its own is wild to me.
Keep up the good work. Enjoying the videos.
Glad you like our content!
There's also an unimplemented holy site for Catholicism in Barcelona, a "Grand Church Under Construction" that's in the game but deactivated.
It's meant to represent the Sagrada Familia, a large basilica located there. However, it didn't begin construction until the 1880s, so I'm not sure why Paradox even considered adding it.
@@southronpapist Joke
This is amazing! I would love to see you cover the holy sights of other religions too. Only got the game about 2 months ago and expected it to be a bit more like civ. As a history buff it exceeds my expectation. This video really compliments the game. Subbed and going to binge watch the rest now. Oh and also love the music you use.
Thank you so much, we’re flattered!
Thank you for this video. I am a bit disappointed at CK3 but happy people like you are remarking this amazing complex and diverse time in religion.
Thank you for your support!
A video on the asatru and tengri faiths holy sites would be an interesting video as there isn’t a lot of information on them
As a Muslim I find it weird how the 3 biggest Muslim faiths are Ashari which Is a Aqidah Ibadi which Is a sect and Ismaili which is a Madhab which are different things.
What should they be? Sunnis, Shia, etc?
@@TZMPaquette Sunni, Shia,Quranist and Ibadi. I dont mind wether they decide on sects madhabs or Aqidah but I just find it weird that they use a mix as a Ibadi can be a Ashari at the same time.
@@anotherguycalled6253i might be misinformed but aren't the three biggest Muslim faiths in Crusader Kings 2/3 Sunni, Shia, and Ibadi?
@@Riskofdisconnect That’s in CK3, in CK3 is more divided, Sunni for example: is divided into Ashari, Maturidi and Muwalladi. The first two are Schools of Theology, but ironically both the founders are either not born yet or too young in the game start dates, while Muwalladi is just a term used for muslims in Iberia.
@@Riskofdisconnect Sunnis are not represented to my knowledge
the orthodox holy sights would be pretty easy to explain. they’re jerusalem, rome, constantinople, antioch, and alexandria. the pentarchy, the seats of the five most important bishops in early christianity (at least according to emperor justinian)
found your channel recently, quickly became I fan. keep up the great work.
Thank you very much for your support!
at a guess the idea is to attempt to create interesting gameplay. for instance the scandinavians taking kent helps to destablise the entire of christendom; making further expanding on the british isles and even the continent easier.
Good point!
Regarding the Catholic holy sites, the flavour does check out somewhat. Cologne increasing control and cultural development represents it being the core of the Franks under Charlemagne. Santiago decreasing Holy Order cost makes a ton of a sense as the spiritual home of the Reconquista etc.
I think the purpose of the buff for Canterbury is to reference how virtue works in most religions, a scenario or past event is met with sin and the faithful are therefore called to the virtue whichs fight said sin i.e wrath being supplemented with kindness
I really hope they expand religions and allow for more interactions in next expansions.
Your definitely underselling Canterbury, Thomas Beckett was quite late, Canterbury was already a massive center for religious worship as it had the tomb of St Augustine, who bought Christianity to England and St Agustine Abbey, and who also founded the Kings schools which is the oldest continually open school in the world, founded in 597, the school and the cathedral share the same buildings. So beckett reinforced a canon but it was already the Holiest site in England before Becketts Death, and continues you to be a place of religion even today, source, Its my home town, Canterbury cathedral is my nearest church (and that includes all the other small chruches and shrines that scatter around the city, most of which are over 1000 years old)
Id also like to note that from a gameplay perspective canterbury, Santiago, Jerusalem and to a far lesser extend cologne are all places under threat by foreign faiths, for cantubury the invasion of england in 761 start date by the norse and the asatru faith, Santiago being under underthreat in the struggle for iberia, and cologne by both asatru and slovenskian/vlidist faiths whilst Jerusalem being occupied by the umayyads, losing places like Canterbury would probably make people lose some sense of faith in the religion
Would really want to see a video on the coptic holy sites or muwalladi holy sites, otherwise, great video
I loved this video and I hope to see more about faiths and their holy sites!
Thank you!
Have you considered that the effects from holding Canterbury may have something to do with it also being the site of St Augustine’s monastery?
Children also dress up as the three kings and visit door to door in early January, blessing the household for the year, in the Czech republic
I can't wait to see you do the asatru holy sites
1- problably rome is not as strong as it should be since its a holy site that is pretty much always in catholic hands unless there is player intervention (in fact i dont think i have ever seen any ruler christian or otherwise declare war on the pope). So buffing it might make it to OP since it would always stay eith the catholics
2- its possible that the cantebury buffs might be an ironic buff, since it became a holy site thanks to disagreements with the church so kinda as a joke having this holy site makes them like you
3- i think some nice bonus for jerusalem would be faster convertion, better opnion of other catholics, better demage against faiths considered hostile or worse or better terrain supply/movent/buffs overall to armies in arid terrain (as a way to represent the ease of travel catholics gained from conquering jerusalem, both for pilgrims but also since the kingdom of jerusalem helped the movement of troops in the following crusades)
I would love to see a video on Orthodoxy
Fellow Aurelian enjoyer
@@mrscechy8625Sol Invictus
Keep this comin' big man; content like this is incredibly based
cologne is called "Köln" in germany
I didn´t recognise for a bit it, cause it´s not a toothpaste.
"cologne" that´s a toothpaste
It would be cool if you did this with the major faiths too, for instance Ash'ari and Ismaili (the only difference being Ash'asri has Baghdad and Isamilia Kufi). Hinduism (maybe Buddhism too) and Judaism too. I've always wondered why Hindus and Jews value those sites. Honestly just wish PDX just added a short description.
Fantastic video! Please do one for all the religions like Pagan, Tengri, and Islam too. Please more
I'd be interested in the Hellenic holy site breakdown.
at 9:57, the captions reveal that there was going to be a monty python clip about the three wise men in this video
Oops yeah you found a scrapped meme there - we were going to include this but bailed due to potential copyright infringement!
For insular Christianity, I'd argue Lindisfarne would be more important to them rather than Canterbury. Lindisfarne being founded by one of their own, St. Aidan, who's see essentially became a place of learning and produced many more saints.
Just checked it and I think it'd be cool if Medhamsted in England was a holy site as in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles 675AD it says Pope Agatho made the Church there a place where those unable to go to Roma whether by illness, poverty or infirmity could go to receive the same forgiveness of Christ and St Peter that he should have had he gone to Rome, though then again I have not played the game in question myself but would be a cool historical detail
Love this content
I figured the supply duration would be due to the militant nature of the area with the Reconquista
One city I kind of wish were actually a Holy Site (over Canterbury which was honestly, not that important for the greater Catholic world) is Paris.
Why you ask ? It's simple : during the Middle Ages (especially the late one), outside of being the center of what was dubbed "the eldest daughter of the church", it's mostly because of it's University of Theology which was the greatest in Europe by a MASSIVE margin. You may think it's an odd reason but let me explain :
I think it's widely known that Paris was by far the largest western city of the era, growing to somewhere between 150-200k before the plague (most probable estimates), well ...... around 10-15k of those were theology students. That's basically where the upper echelons of the Catholic clergy got their education and it was of central interest to the church, so much so that there once was a conflict hetween them and the authorities (sorry, my course on these was a few years back so memory is kinda fuzzy on the details) and the teachers and students in protest decided to go on a strike, and the Pope and cardinals freaked out, because that could potentially cut them off an entire generation of clergymen.
Normally I'm not sure I would argue a Holy Site would be the best for that one, I'd rather have something more towards Universities and rheir relationships with the clergy and other "learned" professions, but until then I think it's a better approximation (plus, I don't know you, but even in terms of gameplay, I think the catholics would freak out a bit moee about the loss of France than that of England ......)
Very interesting take!
Было весело и приятно смотреть спасибо за интересный и позновательный прохождение
I want to see the holy sites become much more dynamic: They SHOULD be able to change over time, and that includes diminishing the significance of certain sites.
In 867 for example, it makes MUCH more sense for Catholicism to have Iona as one of their holy sites than either a Cambridge or Cologne. Over time though, Iona diminished in significance as a holy site. Likewise, Baghdad lost a lot of its religious significance to Sunniism when the Mongols pretty much razed it.
Quality RUclips content
i’d love a video on asatru holy sites
Could you do a CK3 Caliphate hisrory video on the 2 Caliphate titles of the Muslim faiths from Muhammad to the present but can you please unclude the 867 start date please because they are also deserve some coverage
The whole notion of needing 3 holy sites in your domain to reform the religion was always a bit weird (and limiting, from a gameplay perspective), and likely historically inaccurate. Might be interesting to compare this mechanic against the historical examples.
Can you do a video on Christian faiths other than Catholic or Orthodox
I think for England I would say Glastonbury Abbey would be a better holy site with bonuses tied to chivalry.
It'd be great if you could do one for orthodoxy. not just holy sites , but tenets, laws, etc etc, seeing how realistic
Tenets are correct but not full.
The whole sinod and patriarchies are reduced to only the holders of the holy sites
Do all holy sites
I’d love to see a video on þe asatru holy sites
Why is Hellenism in CK3?, a video about Hellenism would be great
I also stumbled across it while writing this, very mysterious
Just like Paganism it's for Historical accuracy reasons, like the Roman Byzantine Emperors were all Hellenic until Constantine I & Julian the Apostate who was the last Hellenic Emperor of Rome. But also if you create a CK3 character you can make your faith be Hellenism
In the history of title files, Frankish and other Germanic rulers have early title holders of Norse faith due to similarities
i imagine that the English holy site would better represent how after the Anglican Shyzsm catholicism "lost those bonuses"
Rome is also a home of education and administration that no douth would improve catholics human and economic development, consider how the church was almost a bank
2:16 I've heard this said about the mass.
CK3 lore is so cool i wish europe was real
can you please do hellenism
Thankfully irl Jerusalem has remained a de facto neutral zone so the Temple Mount and related holy structures remain standing unmolested even as the city shifts around them
I liked the create new religion mechanic,but it lacks some aspects still.For example you cant chose your holy site in your wish,you will still use the main holy sites the religion you have created from.
2nd chosing a symbol for your religion is very limited and need to be added more,especially for a game like Crusader Kings 3.
Loved this vid would love to see the Muslim and other versions
Colonge and Canterbury were far more regional than anything else
A Catholic from Poland or Italy for example wouldn't know much of or care about places like Canterbury
As i remember Crimean war started because some catholic and orthodox want key 🗝️ access to some church granted by Ottoman itself
Aachen seems like a more fitting holy site than Cologne given its status as the seat of German Emperors.
I would love to see similar video abouy Orthodox or Islamic faiths.
5:59 and irl it was not at the time.
@historyinbits the hire cost reduction in Santiago for holy orders, might be due to the Knights of Santiago whom were founded in 1170, whilst they were not situated in Santiago, it is the resting place of their patron saint, and they hired themselves out to protect local pilgrims. so that does make somewhat sense of the holy order hire in that regards .
Wow! 🎉
Кароче минусов не нашёл крутой ролик
Jerusalem wasn't an important holy site for the muslims for most of history in real life. The exceptions were Umayyad and early Ottoman periods. Pilgrimage to it was mostly a local phenomenon.
... I'm going to go watch kingdom of heaven now.
11:30
Alright, I'll stick to CK2...
Some random Jewish man: *dies in a random place of Asia*
90% of the religious people of the world: That's so deep.
The difference is he woke back from the dead
He got better
@@1992zorroThe symbol of Christianity is Jesus suffering in the cross tho, not him resurrecting, in fact people in general underestimates what happened after the resurrection.
Can't wait for the islamic ones.
be weird do Buddhist ones
Kurz Jumpscare
Jerusalem is also important to Muslims because Jesus was born there.
*so badly
What! Köln/Cologne and/or Germany is not catholic? Cologne is one of the most Catholic cities in Germany, and Germany is traditionally half Catholic, half Lutheran! The west and south of present-day Germany is predominantly Catholic, the north and east Protestant. While faith and church membership declined and immigrants brought their religions with them, the history and culture are still strongly CATHOLIC AND LUTHERAN!
first
👏👏👏
they liked my comment I feel so validated rn
"Roman Catholicism" is a misnomer made by English Puritans to slander the Church...
Not really. It claims to be the universal catholic church and its base of power is in Rome.
The pagan church of Rome is a more fitting name.
It is usually utilized to designate the Latin Catholic Church, which represents 99% of all Catholics, the rest being apart of the 23 sui juris Catholic Churches of the East, all in full communion with Rome.
But yes, it’s also misused a lot.
We do use this term to officially describe Catholics in Austria