the depth of your explanations is so well done, incredible. I don't know shit about sodium ion and after your video I have a broad and some technical understanding of the matter. It is entertaining too - the best! I am a teacher and the way you explain here is a true inspiration. Thank you! Proud patreon!!!
Geez, I can never get over how much work you put into these video for us. Considering how big this all is and how much is needed, I wonder why automotive analysts are not taking a closer look at supply chains and battery production far less new breakthroughs. Considering the time lines of the other OEM... I'm wondering how much they will be able to contribute by the time their factories are done and if they will manage to stay alive to improve scale if cost also don't come down on the raw materials they need for the current well known battery chemistries. Thanks Jordan.
Sodium ion for stationary storage and lithium ion for transportation appears to possibly be the future. Reducing the stress on the lithium supply chain by swapping to sodium for stationary storage batteries would be a good thing.
My thoughts as well as BESS systems don't really have the weight and power requirements for automotive, motive, and even standby systems. This would be huge for solar energy storage.
Note: In the video I said Sodium Ion will be poorly suited for vehicles. I didn't say it wouldn't be used in vehicles. Will we see sodium ion in vehicles? This actually requires its own video because there are half a dozen variables and those variables will evolve through time. That is, which country, which manufacturer, and which year do you want to know about? In the next 5-8 years, not for Tesla in the U.S. and Europe in my view. Also: How do you define vehicle? A golf cart is a vehicle. How will the CO2 profiles vary between the chemistries? How will the chemistry affect BMS systems? How will the energy density of sodium ion evolve over time? For Tesla, Sodium ion is unlikely this decade for vehicles because Tesla's priority is vehicles. Vehicles with LFP will be more efficient and require fewer kWh. So, they'll likely shift the LFP athat would be used for energy storage, use that for vehicles, and use the sodium ion for energy storage (as per Drew's comment about energy storage). This is exactly what's currently being done with Nickel and LFP. LFP is pushing Nickel out of the energy storage space and Nickel is pushing up the ladder to Cybertruck and Semi. So, could Sodium Ion be used for vehicles this decade? Yes Will it? Yes Will you drive one of those vehicles? Probably not, they'll be for low cost beaters in China and India who will take any scraps. This is exactly the way that LFP was used for 10 years before Tesla started using it. So, maybe you'll see Sodium Ion in a Tesla in 2030 if things go sideways. Will that likelihood increase with time? Maybe, maybe not. In the early 2030s there will be new lithium ion cathodes that drive down the cost of lithium ion so low that it could be competitive with sodium ion at much higher energy densities, plus huge volumes of recycled material will start to become available. So, I don't think anyone has the answer here on what chemistry will be dominant in the 2030s. It will likely be a mix of chemistries depending on the use case. Will it better for the environment to use sodium ion than LFP? No, because it'll be less efficient and the materials used for sodium ion will have higher CO2 emissions. As for the hybrid pack thing, I think it's kind of a BS gimmick like pack swapping. It makes more sense to use one chemistry that caters to the use case. I could be wrong, and my view could evolve, but that's my hot take. It generate unecessary complexity.
I agree with your take on the hybrid packs. It wouldn't really be one pack from an electrical point of view, more like having two separate batteries with different properties (and different aging behaviour). The power electronics for driving and charging would have to be more complex. Battery management would be difficult. The mechanical engineering of the pack would be a challenge. And, most importantly, the potential benefits are small.
Tesla Economist would probably like to know if you think it would be good for autonomous taxis outside of the US and EU. If a vehicle can be charged and put back into service in a reasonable amount of time and has vast cycles available, range may be less of an issue.
I'm interested in the potential of sodium ion for electric 2/3-wheel vehicles, since the market for "micromobility" has been exploding in size with a variety of docked and dockless e-bike and e-scooter shared rentals in urban areas. Range is not as large a factor for this use-case as charge time and longevity.
Thanks alot. I’ve been waiting for this video and now my understanding of the limitations of recently proposed sodium-ion battery chemistries have improved. This has been very helpful. I’ll be looking closely at the sodium ion battery manufacturing industry for improvements in cost efficiency for the energy storage market over the long term. 😃👍
Jordan, Excellent research and presentation. Sodium Ion is important and should increase cell availability, and reduce cost, towards the end of the decade.... unless another tech breaks thru happens - which is possible but unlikely. Thanks - the community needs you, Eamon
As usual, excellent video. I think Na based batteries around 190 to 200 Wh per kg could well serve cheaper cars with range of 300 km. This is good enough for many customers and will only accelerate the adoption of EVs. The only downside is the time to build new supply chains for the new chemistry.
Excellent point. A compact work van has ample volume and requires something around 120 miles of range for local service. This seems like a perfect application. An overlooked market in the USA. Good enough is perfect.
Wow, fantastic presentation! Well organized and clearly presented. But the background graphics tell a bunch of other interesting stories besides supporting the narration. I kept having to rewind and pause on the graphs to see fascinating content that goes beyond your story. Thanks for the great hard work putting together the supporting graphics.
The long life is exactly what I would personally like for powering the house. Don't care for volumetric density or even weight density if I can just dig a hole in the garden and put a ton of batteries there. I just need long life and the bonus of smaller risk of thermal run-away.
Loved this video. I didn't know that about volumetric density difference of Sodium ion. I really want to emphasize something you said about how the sodium batteries can't use table salt and that's a big one people miss. Battery grade materials are not the regular materials and take only the most pure and specialy processed forms. This is why nickel is such an issue as many forms of nickel just can't be used. My two cents are that lifepo4 will make sodium less important in the future as by the time sodium is becoming more relevant, the lithium supply will be becoming less constrained and prices will come down leading to competitive LiFePO4 prices with what will be a much more mature and probably better tech.
Maybe there will be some less constraint on Li due to circularity and production growth, but it will still remain inherently more constraint because of its orders of magnitude less abundance.
Good video as always. at time 2:07. "The basic assumption for Na is that it is more abundant than Li". While it is more abundant than Li, there is plenty of Li for battery consumption. Yes, there are costs associated with Li production, and there are costs associated with Na production. But there is sufficient Li for EV batteries so I'm surprised that's the driving force for Na batteries. Maybe the driving force is cost (due to abundance, cost is lower). And I agree it'll probably be used first for energy storage, freeing Li to be used for EVs, except for those markets that want a "low range" around town car as you mentioned.
One correction, Li is less abundant than Ni. Ni comprises roughly 90 ppm in the Earths crust, while Li is only 20 ppm. If you have a source to say otherwise I'm interested to see it!
I imagine one the main factors in the long term viability of any battery chemistry will be its recycability. This will greatly reduce the cost of materials long term and is the only way we can make them sustainable.
Excellent video. I have now adjusted by expectations, unfortunately. I now understand why Tesla hasn't been publicly very interested in Sodium ion batteries, even for grid storage.
Excellent take! I am excited to see if sodium based BESS systems will become commonplace in residential homes as the price drops. This will become more important as utilities shift towards intermittent renewable generation. Subscribed!
At 1:15 it says the capacity is 170 mAh/g theatrical. Is that what they say it is during a play on a stage? I'm curious what the play is called and what theater is showing it! Just teasing 😜. I suspect spell check goofed up "theoretical," but it made me chuckle.
Hi Jordon, thank you for another excellent video. Do you think the latest work on Lithium-Sulphur batteries will allow for greater olume due to their material abundance if the newer discovery can be scaled successfully?
@@thelimitingfactor do you think there may be parts of the lithium ion manufacturing process where Lithium-Sulphur production could be substituted? Albeit if the new research proves true... still a big stretch from bench to production.
I looked back at the 20:00 mark and if the 226 current and proposed battery factories in China as opposed to 78 in the rest of the world combined, we see who is going to win. The rest of the world is never going to catch up with that advantage. Somewhat scary.
Well, there are several high manganese cathodes. It can be added to most cathode chemistries. Each of those has a different use case and potential. Mn will be increasingly used.
A question I have had for some time. What do you predict the cost of battery materials will be once an efficient recycling process exists and how will this affect chemical choices made by battery manufacturers?i assume we will hit a tipping point where expired batteries will suffice for new needs. I am also assuming we will be using raw materials more and more efficiently and thus requiring less material per kWh capacity being made.
It should charge quickly just as they said. But there's always a trade-off between how much you fast charge a battery and cycle life. That's a business decision.
@@thelimitingfactor I'm guessing that a quickly charging, long lasting Na ion battery might be a killer in the low price + Robotaxi segment, even if range stays under 200 mi. I hope Tesla has this on their radar. Just finished reading the innovator's dilemma (great book!) and Na ion seems to qualify as a disruptive innovation that takes great companies off guard - maybe even Tesla.
It could be, but first you need the cells. And, that was the point of the video. No cells, no robotaxi. Regardless, just as Tesla easily switched to LFP, they can easily switch to sodium. There are a lot of chemistries out there. All have trade off decisions, even sodium ion. The issue is the volume of cells available, which will come in time to all parties.
Good Video as usual. Even though I think you should just explain technologies and how they work. Predicting the future is always a very tricky adventure.
No, the hype train died out and hydro quebec is playing with it last I heard. But I do know they were basically claiming it broke the laws of physics, so something was off. I don't believe in any breakthrough unless it's commercialized, even from a laureate.
I do think something worth considering is that it will likely be a far easier task environmentally to source sodium than lithium, as it can potentially be extracted from sources such as seawater desalination, taking what would be a waste product and turning it to productive use, and would shorten supply chains which can take the sources in places where people already live.
@TheLimitingFacor Just FYI, on mobile it looks like there is a thin red line along the bottom that RUclips uses to indicate that video has already been viewed. My brain didn't even read the title or anything, I just saw the line and didn't read anything else because I assumed I already saw it.
Professional and well done! As a supply chain professor, I 100% concur with your conclusion. Even if sodium is better and cheaper (and that is a big if) The supply chain will take a long time to mature to compete with lithium.
Also, solid state or something else, might come along in the next few years that will be better than these 2 chemistries. Will be interesting. Thanks Jordan, I look forward to each new video.
By the time Sodium Ion ramps past the Lithium Ion capacity, we should be well into the first (second) round of recycling the Lithium Ion cells. I wonder how that will affect the cost differential?
Before I watch the video, my previous understanding of the Sodium Ion battery ia that it is much more suited to stationary storage than the Lithium Ion battery. By utiising Sodium for stationary staorage it will allow Lithium to be used for transport where weight and mass becomes a more important issue. Besides which, there will eventually be a far greater requirement for stationary storage batteries than for transport. From this time perspective, the economic numbers will just fall out in the way that Sodium will be the major stationary battery, and Lithium will be best for transport. I'll watch the video and digest...
@@entwine Of course, but we cannot write in length and detail, and also summarise our understanding of the present situation, re: sodium ion batteries and lithium. Jordan does a brilliant job to encapsulate everything into a relatively easy to digest video.
What is the case for Sodium-Sulphur? There are some reports saying that CATL are producing this chemistry at an energy density that is 4x Li-Ion. However, these are just reports at this stage.
Good video. Regarding Li vs. Ni abundance does your analysis consider the feasibility of the extraction of known reserves? I am less familiar with Ni, but I have heard that there is lots of Li wrt long term EV requirements, but there is not a lot of easily recoverable reserves.
I wanted to disagree with you heavily from the getgo, but ended up fully agreeing with you mostly. Good job. The only disagreement was semantics. Having a scaled up output of Sodium Ion batteries by 2025 would be very early in my book, while it seemed that you suggested 2025 is far away. Also CATL said that scalability should be easier as they can use most of the same processes of LFP production. Sure this still leaves a ton of issues as you said. I enjoy constructive sceptecism you displayed.
Thanks man! Yeah, CATL was showing a bit of bravado there, and there was truth to what they were saying. It's not like they're making a 4680 DBE line or a solid state line. It's all established tech on the cell front. However, it's the full supply chain and validation that will be the challenge. Hysteresis at low voltages, etc. Chemical eceentricities with sodium, etc.
It's not a literature review. Rather, it's publicly available information. The bibliography is visual. I note all sources where applicable on each slide.
Great work! That's quite a research. What are your thoughts on aluminium ion battery when compared with LFP? Aluminium is cheaper has more availability and comes with more energy density. Let me know your thoughts on this, please.
@@thelimitingfactor I was just going through some articles that mentioned Phinergy ( A Israel based company) has already started testing some of these battery units, though it's in pilot phase right now but yes I have seen some of these samples currently being with an Indian Car maker company(Tata Motors) in recent times. In case if you find this interesting in future are you considering Doing in depth comparison on this in the near future? Thanks for your response again!
Could sodium batteries help me ease the drought in the Mountain West? If California got their water from the ocean through desalination, the waste product could be sold to make sodium batteries. Desalination is expensive but if you could sell the ‘waste’ product, it makes the economics better.
The Ford Mach E base RWD/AWD Trim is now produced with a CATL LFP battery pack, 78 kWh in size (Munro got a pic of the label on the side of the battery), 72 usable. If a sodium Ion battery pack has a roughly 33% higher volumetric energy density than LFP, that means you can theoretically fit a 58.5 kWh sodium battery pack (around 55 usable) in a Ford Mach E, and a 60 kWh sodium pack in the slightly larger Model Y, around 57.5 usable. At the same 160 LFP efficiency level of a Model Y RWD, you can theoretically get 280 WLTP miles of range or 250 EPA Miles in a RWD Model Y with a 60 kWh sodium pack (57.5 usable), or with AWD about 250 WLTP miles or 225 EPA Miles. You're saying that we currently cannot get more than about 180 miles of range using the higher volumetric density of sodium ion. Am I missing anything or does sodium ion actually currently have the capability of 250 EPA Miles?
I'd be more than ok with a low cost 180 mile EV. Especially if you can charge to 80% in 15 minutes, as CATL is saying. But if Sodium Ion batteries can replace lead acid reliably, then there's a huge market for them in everything from industrial backup batteries through to mobility scooters and golf carts. I mean, if you build out the UK national grid with batteries, it could be 100% renewable energy almost immediately, instead of being around 50% renewable. And energy costs would drop through the floor.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on sodium ion cathode scaling. I have an uneasy feeling that your assumptions about scaling up production relative to lithium ion and LFP are not set in stone. If the supply of sodium is abundant, then existing and planned battery production factories might be able to transition to using a sodium cathode and appropriate anode. 🤔
Not existing. Supply chains are locked in for existing. They'd lose a year of production. Planned - Unlikely as well. Planned supply indicates to the market what to supply. In order to have a planned supply of sodium, you need a planned supply of sodium ion battery factories.
It strikes me that as much as we need to increase the available storage capacity, we also need to concentrate very hard on general consumption of electrical energy, using increasingly more efficient, lower energy devices, in smaller numbers. (Just happen to be carrying out a "power audit" at home)
So true, few people really understand how much power is consumed and wasted in a home just with laundry.. Or my particular one the dishwasher. Full loads, lower temps and air drying.. And of course it goes on.
the depth of your explanations is so well done, incredible. I don't know shit about sodium ion and after your video I have a broad and some technical understanding of the matter. It is entertaining too - the best! I am a teacher and the way you explain here is a true inspiration. Thank you! Proud patreon!!!
🤜🤛 Happy to hear it!
Can you do a short update on this video? BNEF Nate Bullard is saying “new battery tech is here” referencing faradion.
Very well done. Especially the comparison to nature with Chlorophyll..
Thanks man! Yeah, the heme/chlorophyll thing is a fun factoid! Been itching to put that in a video, lol
I love these aggressively detailed videos.
thanks Jordan, as usual very comprehensive content. Looking forward to the deep dive.
Thank you Jordan. Your videos are so educational. Much appreciate you.
😊
Geez, I can never get over how much work you put into these video for us. Considering how big this all is and how much is needed, I wonder why automotive analysts are not taking a closer look at supply chains and battery production far less new breakthroughs. Considering the time lines of the other OEM... I'm wondering how much they will be able to contribute by the time their factories are done and if they will manage to stay alive to improve scale if cost also don't come down on the raw materials they need for the current well known battery chemistries.
Thanks Jordan.
Sodium ion for stationary storage and lithium ion for transportation appears to possibly be the future.
Reducing the stress on the lithium supply chain by swapping to sodium for stationary storage batteries would be a good thing.
My thoughts as well as BESS systems don't really have the weight and power requirements for automotive, motive, and even standby systems. This would be huge for solar energy storage.
Another insightful and enlightening video. You are the gold standard for unbiased information about batteries.
Agreed. A long video but the information density per minute was off the charts. There's clearly a lot of nickel in his brain cathode.
Thanks Jordan !! I'll only have to watch this 20 more times before I understand it all. The research you put in is amazing
This is the best video I've watched on sodium batteries and comparing to lithium batteries. Well done.
Thanks Rob 😊
Thank you. Cogent and clearly communicated. (Neither surprise as it follows your precedent.)
Thanks!
Best and most level headed coverage on the topic/science/commercial reality (that most don’t know about or talk about), thanks!
Thanks
Excellent analysis, again. Thanks for laying it out for us!
Tack!
🤜🤛
Thank you. Your research and production of these informative videos is really providing a great service to us.
Note: In the video I said Sodium Ion will be poorly suited for vehicles. I didn't say it wouldn't be used in vehicles. Will we see sodium ion in vehicles? This actually requires its own video because there are half a dozen variables and those variables will evolve through time.
That is, which country, which manufacturer, and which year do you want to know about? In the next 5-8 years, not for Tesla in the U.S. and Europe in my view. Also: How do you define vehicle? A golf cart is a vehicle. How will the CO2 profiles vary between the chemistries? How will the chemistry affect BMS systems? How will the energy density of sodium ion evolve over time?
For Tesla, Sodium ion is unlikely this decade for vehicles because Tesla's priority is vehicles. Vehicles with LFP will be more efficient and require fewer kWh. So, they'll likely shift the LFP athat would be used for energy storage, use that for vehicles, and use the sodium ion for energy storage (as per Drew's comment about energy storage). This is exactly what's currently being done with Nickel and LFP. LFP is pushing Nickel out of the energy storage space and Nickel is pushing up the ladder to Cybertruck and Semi.
So, could Sodium Ion be used for vehicles this decade? Yes
Will it? Yes
Will you drive one of those vehicles? Probably not, they'll be for low cost beaters in China and India who will take any scraps. This is exactly the way that LFP was used for 10 years before Tesla started using it. So, maybe you'll see Sodium Ion in a Tesla in 2030 if things go sideways.
Will that likelihood increase with time? Maybe, maybe not. In the early 2030s there will be new lithium ion cathodes that drive down the cost of lithium ion so low that it could be competitive with sodium ion at much higher energy densities, plus huge volumes of recycled material will start to become available. So, I don't think anyone has the answer here on what chemistry will be dominant in the 2030s. It will likely be a mix of chemistries depending on the use case.
Will it better for the environment to use sodium ion than LFP? No, because it'll be less efficient and the materials used for sodium ion will have higher CO2 emissions.
As for the hybrid pack thing, I think it's kind of a BS gimmick like pack swapping. It makes more sense to use one chemistry that caters to the use case. I could be wrong, and my view could evolve, but that's my hot take. It generate unecessary complexity.
I agree with your take on the hybrid packs. It wouldn't really be one pack from an electrical point of view, more like having two separate batteries with different properties (and different aging behaviour). The power electronics for driving and charging would have to be more complex. Battery management would be difficult. The mechanical engineering of the pack would be a challenge. And, most importantly, the potential benefits are small.
🙌 Here here!
Tesla Economist would probably like to know if you think it would be good for autonomous taxis outside of the US and EU. If a vehicle can be charged and put back into service in a reasonable amount of time and has vast cycles available, range may be less of an issue.
🤗 THANKS JORDAN …I HOPE THINGS ARE GOING WELL 🤗👍
And for explaining the LIMITING FACTOR 😁 on this technology
🧐😎😍😍😍
I'm interested in the potential of sodium ion for electric 2/3-wheel vehicles, since the market for "micromobility" has been exploding in size with a variety of docked and dockless e-bike and e-scooter shared rentals in urban areas. Range is not as large a factor for this use-case as charge time and longevity.
wow...excellent video Jordan. I learnt a lot. Thanks
Extremely informative. Very nice! Kudos. This is very informative, and excellent.
Thanks for all your research and hard work
Awesome Video, technical and down to earth. Really like your comparison of heme and Chlorophyll.
Always so well researched & clearly explained. Thanks!
I'm in 8 minutes and you have provided such a wealth of information. Thank you.
Information density ftw, lol
Thanks alot. I’ve been waiting for this video and now my understanding of the limitations of recently proposed sodium-ion battery chemistries have improved. This has been very helpful. I’ll be looking closely at the sodium ion battery manufacturing industry for improvements in cost efficiency for the energy storage market over the long term. 😃👍
Jordan, Excellent research and presentation. Sodium Ion is important and should increase cell availability, and reduce cost, towards the end of the decade.... unless another tech breaks thru happens - which is possible but unlikely. Thanks - the community needs you, Eamon
Thanks for the support Eamon!
The right kind of complexity in this video. I wish you'd make all your videos like this one. I lose focus in your most complex videos. Thank you! 👏🙌
As usual, excellent video. I think Na based batteries around 190 to 200 Wh per kg could well serve cheaper cars with range of 300 km. This is good enough for many customers and will only accelerate the adoption of EVs. The only downside is the time to build new supply chains for the new chemistry.
Most people are poor. If car makers produce much cheaper electric cars, people will choose sodium cars.
Excellent point. A compact work van has ample volume and requires something around 120 miles of range for local service. This seems like a perfect application. An overlooked market in the USA. Good enough is perfect.
CATL says they can says they can produce sodium ion batteries with almost the same facilities as their lithium batteries actually
@@violinmaker4271 They can be built with the same production equipment.
Wow, fantastic presentation! Well organized and clearly presented. But the background graphics tell a bunch of other interesting stories besides supporting the narration. I kept having to rewind and pause on the graphs to see fascinating content that goes beyond your story. Thanks for the great hard work putting together the supporting graphics.
Hey thanks man! I put a lot of effort into the visuals.
These projections are still great for lots of non-stationary use cases.Trains , boats, trucks ...
The long life is exactly what I would personally like for powering the house. Don't care for volumetric density or even weight density if I can just dig a hole in the garden and put a ton of batteries there. I just need long life and the bonus of smaller risk of thermal run-away.
Loved this video. I didn't know that about volumetric density difference of Sodium ion. I really want to emphasize something you said about how the sodium batteries can't use table salt and that's a big one people miss. Battery grade materials are not the regular materials and take only the most pure and specialy processed forms. This is why nickel is such an issue as many forms of nickel just can't be used. My two cents are that lifepo4 will make sodium less important in the future as by the time sodium is becoming more relevant, the lithium supply will be becoming less constrained and prices will come down leading to competitive LiFePO4 prices with what will be a much more mature and probably better tech.
yes . agreed.
Maybe there will be some less constraint on Li due to circularity and production growth, but it will still remain inherently more constraint because of its orders of magnitude less abundance.
Good video as always. at time 2:07. "The basic assumption for Na is that it is more abundant than Li". While it is more abundant than Li, there is plenty of Li for battery consumption. Yes, there are costs associated with Li production, and there are costs associated with Na production. But there is sufficient Li for EV batteries so I'm surprised that's the driving force for Na batteries. Maybe the driving force is cost (due to abundance, cost is lower). And I agree it'll probably be used first for energy storage, freeing Li to be used for EVs, except for those markets that want a "low range" around town car as you mentioned.
I will never park anything with a lithium battery in my garage or ever mount on on the side of my house.
Solid content
Incredible content I learnt soo much and I'm in class right now not even paying attention to the lecture 😂😂😂
Excellent video. What is your background? Your knowledge is extensive!😊
My degree is in management, lol. I just started doing videos and listen to feedback and ended up talking to experts and kept learning
Well done Jordan!
Very thorough. Thanks.
One correction, Li is less abundant than Ni. Ni comprises roughly 90 ppm in the Earths crust, while Li is only 20 ppm. If you have a source to say otherwise I'm interested to see it!
I imagine one the main factors in the long term viability of any battery chemistry will be its recycability. This will greatly reduce the cost of materials long term and is the only way we can make them sustainable.
Excellent as usual.
your video is so well rounded. most of your opinion is based on actual data and fairly accurate. thanks for all the analysis you've done
Sure thing Nedi! Thanks for watching
This is a really great video! My only note: "bout" vs "bought". It looks like you did your own subtitles (which I greatly appreciate).
Thank you!
beyond excellent video
WOW! thank you sir for your outstanding analysis!
🤜🤛🤠
Excellent video. I have now adjusted by expectations, unfortunately. I now understand why Tesla hasn't been publicly very interested in Sodium ion batteries, even for grid storage.
Excellent take! I am excited to see if sodium based BESS systems will become commonplace in residential homes as the price drops. This will become more important as utilities shift towards intermittent renewable generation. Subscribed!
🙌🏼🤠 thanks for watching!
Awesome content .. even if one does not agree with conclusion put across ..the quality is exceptional ..respect
🤜🤛
Thanks for another highly informative video on battery tech!! Do you have any content on flow batteries I would love to learn more about them!?
Excellent analysis
I thumbs up before watching the video.😀
Again, Giga interesting !
Excellent video.
At 1:15 it says the capacity is 170 mAh/g theatrical. Is that what they say it is during a play on a stage? I'm curious what the play is called and what theater is showing it!
Just teasing 😜. I suspect spell check goofed up "theoretical," but it made me chuckle.
Hi Jordon, thank you for another excellent video.
Do you think the latest work on Lithium-Sulphur batteries will allow for greater olume due to their material abundance if the newer discovery can be scaled successfully?
Viable, but won't be see commercially for 5 years. Then, many more years to scale.
@@thelimitingfactor do you think there may be parts of the lithium ion manufacturing process where Lithium-Sulphur production could be substituted? Albeit if the new research proves true... still a big stretch from bench to production.
6:19 he said it! He said the thing!
This answers many questions 🖖🏼
I looked back at the 20:00 mark and if the 226 current and proposed battery factories in China as opposed to 78 in the rest of the world combined, we see who is going to win. The rest of the world is never going to catch up with that advantage. Somewhat scary.
Really nice that youre correcting the misconceptions :) What are the drawbacks /challenges of using MnO2 as cathode?
Well, there are several high manganese cathodes. It can be added to most cathode chemistries. Each of those has a different use case and potential. Mn will be increasingly used.
Great understanding
A question I have had for some time. What do you predict the cost of battery materials will be once an efficient recycling process exists and how will this affect chemical choices made by battery manufacturers?i assume we will hit a tipping point where expired batteries will suffice for new needs.
I am also assuming we will be using raw materials more and more efficiently and thus requiring less material per kWh capacity being made.
That's over a decade away.
If I was a college professor your videos would be required watching.
Thank you!
I've been looking forward to your take on Na for months. Did you happen to find information about the charging speed of CATLs chemistry?
It should charge quickly just as they said. But there's always a trade-off between how much you fast charge a battery and cycle life. That's a business decision.
@@thelimitingfactor I'm guessing that a quickly charging, long lasting Na ion battery might be a killer in the low price + Robotaxi segment, even if range stays under 200 mi. I hope Tesla has this on their radar. Just finished reading the innovator's dilemma (great book!) and Na ion seems to qualify as a disruptive innovation that takes great companies off guard - maybe even Tesla.
It could be, but first you need the cells. And, that was the point of the video. No cells, no robotaxi.
Regardless, just as Tesla easily switched to LFP, they can easily switch to sodium. There are a lot of chemistries out there. All have trade off decisions, even sodium ion. The issue is the volume of cells available, which will come in time to all parties.
Good Video as usual. Even though I think you should just explain technologies and how they work. Predicting the future is always a very tricky adventure.
High powered educational content, pun intended.
😁
Great title man! SO psyched to listen to this topic.
Lol, thanks 😁
@@thelimitingfactor Awe, you changed it!
Jordan, great work as usual.
Question: Do you know what the Limiting Factor is on the John B Goodenough’s mew Glass Battery?
No, the hype train died out and hydro quebec is playing with it last I heard. But I do know they were basically claiming it broke the laws of physics, so something was off. I don't believe in any breakthrough unless it's commercialized, even from a laureate.
@@thelimitingfactor If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
Thank you. M
I do think something worth considering is that it will likely be a far easier task environmentally to source sodium than lithium, as it can potentially be extracted from sources such as seawater desalination, taking what would be a waste product and turning it to productive use, and would shorten supply chains which can take the sources in places where people already live.
@TheLimitingFacor Just FYI, on mobile it looks like there is a thin red line along the bottom that RUclips uses to indicate that video has already been viewed. My brain didn't even read the title or anything, I just saw the line and didn't read anything else because I assumed I already saw it.
Professional and well done! As a supply chain professor, I 100% concur with your conclusion. Even if sodium is better and cheaper (and that is a big if) The supply chain will take a long time to mature to compete with lithium.
Also, solid state or something else, might come along in the next few years that will be better than these 2 chemistries. Will be interesting. Thanks Jordan, I look forward to each new video.
I appreciate your thoughts! Thank you!
Thumbs up for using the "one does not simply" meme :'D
😁 One of my favourites!
Best part is that I was listening from another room and when the meme vibes hit I had to look. Just in case.
10/10 did not disappoint!
Ha ha! I love your literary style. I haven't heard Deus ex machina or Cambrian explosion used in an EV video before.
lol! 😁
By the time Sodium Ion ramps past the Lithium Ion capacity, we should be well into the first (second) round of recycling the Lithium Ion cells.
I wonder how that will affect the cost differential?
👀 Exactly!
Nice video
Jordan, what do you have on Lithium Sulphur batteries?
Viable, but won't be on the market for another 5 years in any kind of commercial volume
Before I watch the video, my previous understanding of the Sodium Ion battery ia that it is much more suited to stationary storage than the Lithium Ion battery. By utiising Sodium for stationary staorage it will allow Lithium to be used for transport where weight and mass becomes a more important issue. Besides which, there will eventually be a far greater requirement for stationary storage batteries than for transport. From this time perspective, the economic numbers will just fall out in the way that Sodium will be the major stationary battery, and Lithium will be best for transport.
I'll watch the video and digest...
That's exactly what I was thinking. We are right, but the video gives so much more detail around this!
@@entwine Of course, but we cannot write in length and detail, and also summarise our understanding of the present situation, re: sodium ion batteries and lithium. Jordan does a brilliant job to encapsulate everything into a relatively easy to digest video.
What is the case for Sodium-Sulphur? There are some reports saying that CATL are producing this chemistry at an energy density that is 4x Li-Ion. However, these are just reports at this stage.
Too far away to speculate 😉
@@thelimitingfactor Yep, true, and it's a molten battery, so possibly not great for putting in vehicles at this stage.
Good video. Regarding Li vs. Ni abundance does your analysis consider the feasibility of the extraction of known reserves? I am less familiar with Ni, but I have heard that there is lots of Li wrt long term EV requirements, but there is not a lot of easily recoverable reserves.
CATL condensed Matter batteries, do you know about these?
Sodium Ion, the new LIFEPO4. They will be ideal for storage applications in their current form. The future? Who the heck knows...lol
What is the CATL Qilin battery? Is it truly a rise in efficiency and storage or did they just stack up more battery cells?
He is right. I only put on 45lbs of muscle mass when I was 10 years old.
I wanted to disagree with you heavily from the getgo, but ended up fully agreeing with you mostly. Good job.
The only disagreement was semantics. Having a scaled up output of Sodium Ion batteries by 2025 would be very early in my book, while it seemed that you suggested 2025 is far away.
Also CATL said that scalability should be easier as they can use most of the same processes of LFP production. Sure this still leaves a ton of issues as you said.
I enjoy constructive sceptecism you displayed.
Thanks man! Yeah, CATL was showing a bit of bravado there, and there was truth to what they were saying. It's not like they're making a 4680 DBE line or a solid state line. It's all established tech on the cell front.
However, it's the full supply chain and validation that will be the challenge. Hysteresis at low voltages, etc. Chemical eceentricities with sodium, etc.
What is the nova processing method of Li...to get higher efficiency from ore.
CATL has begun production early this year
“One more entree added to the menu” Jordan rocks on.
Had to watch this again. Too much sodium hype at the moment.
I will be doing more videos on sodium.
The next one will be sodium ion for vehicles.
@@thelimitingfactor looking forward to it. 👍
Very nice literature review, would be great if you could list these in a comment.
It's not a literature review. Rather, it's publicly available information. The bibliography is visual. I note all sources where applicable on each slide.
@@thelimitingfactor understood, I was just referring to the literature included, would be nice to have the list.
What is your take on Altris and Amte Power?
Great work! That's quite a research.
What are your thoughts on aluminium ion battery when compared with LFP?
Aluminium is cheaper has more availability and comes with more energy density.
Let me know your thoughts on this, please.
Aluminum ion has yet to prove itself at commercial scale, all we really have is lab samples.
@@thelimitingfactor I was just going through some articles that mentioned Phinergy ( A Israel based company) has already started testing some of these battery units, though it's in pilot phase right now but yes I have seen some of these samples currently being with an Indian Car maker company(Tata Motors) in recent times.
In case if you find this interesting in future are you considering Doing in depth comparison on this in the near future?
Thanks for your response again!
Wait, did this video just come out or has it been online for a week, and I just missed it?
I release them a week early on Patreon.
I'm guessing you already heard this but as December of 2022, BYD is the company you are looking for in 24:38
🤜🤛
Could sodium batteries help me ease the drought in the Mountain West? If California got their water from the ocean through desalination, the waste product could be sold to make sodium batteries.
Desalination is expensive but if you could sell the ‘waste’ product, it makes the economics better.
The Ford Mach E base RWD/AWD Trim is now produced with a CATL LFP battery pack, 78 kWh in size (Munro got a pic of the label on the side of the battery), 72 usable. If a sodium Ion battery pack has a roughly 33% higher volumetric energy density than LFP, that means you can theoretically fit a 58.5 kWh sodium battery pack (around 55 usable) in a Ford Mach E, and a 60 kWh sodium pack in the slightly larger Model Y, around 57.5 usable. At the same 160 LFP efficiency level of a Model Y RWD, you can theoretically get 280 WLTP miles of range or 250 EPA Miles in a RWD Model Y with a 60 kWh sodium pack (57.5 usable), or with AWD about 250 WLTP miles or 225 EPA Miles. You're saying that we currently cannot get more than about 180 miles of range using the higher volumetric density of sodium ion. Am I missing anything or does sodium ion actually currently have the capability of 250 EPA Miles?
How about what will come faster to market for ev's, sodium ion or solid state batteries?
I'd be more than ok with a low cost 180 mile EV. Especially if you can charge to 80% in 15 minutes, as CATL is saying.
But if Sodium Ion batteries can replace lead acid reliably, then there's a huge market for them in everything from industrial backup batteries through to mobility scooters and golf carts.
I mean, if you build out the UK national grid with batteries, it could be 100% renewable energy almost immediately, instead of being around 50% renewable.
And energy costs would drop through the floor.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on sodium ion cathode scaling. I have an uneasy feeling that your assumptions about scaling up production relative to lithium ion and LFP are not set in stone. If the supply of sodium is abundant, then existing and planned battery production factories might be able to transition to using a sodium cathode and appropriate anode. 🤔
It's not a question of abundance, it's the actual industrial process. That's the part that can take time.
Not existing. Supply chains are locked in for existing. They'd lose a year of production.
Planned - Unlikely as well. Planned supply indicates to the market what to supply. In order to have a planned supply of sodium, you need a planned supply of sodium ion battery factories.
I see the sodium sulfur batteries getting going in a few years.
It strikes me that as much as we need to increase the available storage capacity, we also need to concentrate very hard on general consumption of electrical energy, using increasingly more efficient, lower energy devices, in smaller numbers.
(Just happen to be carrying out a "power audit" at home)
So true, few people really understand how much power is consumed and wasted in a home just with laundry.. Or my particular one the dishwasher. Full loads, lower temps and air drying.. And of course it goes on.
Amen!