The 4680 in Perspective // Battery Day Refresher + Competitors?
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2024
- This is a preamble to the 4680 Teardown Series to put the 4680 cell in perspective which will include a battery day refresher with new information + some brief notes on quote-unquote competitors like the BYD Blade Battery and CATL's Qilin Battery.
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Timeline
00:00 Intro
01:05 The Purpose of Battery Day
01:57 The Affordability vs Scalability Relationship
06:09 Achieving Affordability and Scalability
07:09 Why a Cylindrical 4680 Form Factor?
10:14 Tabless: What’s the Point?
12:56 Panasonic’s 5-Tabbed 4680
15:27 Why 46mm Exactly?
17:00 The Coating Bottleneck and DBE
18:56 The Formation Bottleneck
19:33 The Pack Bottleneck
20:36 Quick Summary
20:59 ‘Competitors’ BYD Blade and CATL Qilin
#BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said 
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Additional video notes 🤠:
1) I say the 4680 dimensions were somewhat arbitrary. In terms of technical performance, it appears that’s true. However, there could be of course other factors. Tesla may have chosen exactly 46mm due to the potential of off-the-shelf solutions or synergies within the line or for pack design.
2) I say that although the cell increased in size by 5x, the line speed increased by 7x, and therefore the larger cell isn’t fully responsible for the speed increase. How can I say that? Panasonic has lines that run at 300k cells/day and others that run at 600 cells/day. This is despite both producing a 2170 battery cell.
The pack has design parameters, too, such as voltage, and there will be a set of series-parallel solutions. Difference cell sizes will lead to different packing into the pack area, and it is best that the packing leads to a good series-parallel cell solution. 46 mm may have been the sweet spot for the packing strategy, taking into consideration the cooling structures.
@@davidharris7249 Good point
Mathemagical Financial Form factor.
despite both what? Don't leave us on a cliffhanger!
The size of the 4680 may have been somewhat determined by the width of the vehicles Tesla is intending to use it in, which determines size of the pack and then number of cells depending on the size of the cell.
My daughter is a Chemical Engineering major and I send her Jordans videos as an example of almost perfect deductive reasoning and Technical Presentation. The ability to master a technical subject with careful research, examining hard evidence, and avoiding conjecture. 😎
I could see Jordan teaching this to freshmen entering college as an introductory course to battery energy storage.
Jordan attributed the contributions to his Sister and Interviewed Scientists, but he has the innate ability to see things as they are, ie WYSIWYG corrected POV of the sum-of-all probability-histories that is how to see holography dimensionality in relative-timing ratio-rates Perspective. Excellent Teaching and Learning techniques for any of us.
In writing Wh/kg, the 'W' ought to be capitalized (i.e. uppercase). 24:47 . ..but your statement is correct for the most parts :) .
@@AdityaMehendale 🤗To us laypersons …we would know the difference…and anyone else who would…it should not be a problem 🤷♂️😁
He does a great job. His reasoning is sound, trustworthy.
Cylindrical vs Prismatic (Pouch):
As a side issue, what I realize more and more, for cylindrical cells there is no need to pretension them. They are stable in itself.
yes!
Battery day is 100% sales hype. Batteries won't even exist in less than 20 years.
Excellent, clear summary. Two years after battery day we are seeing the vision they had and how they're applying it. I marvel at how much they told us on battery day, and yet they kept back key points that are only becoming clear now.
The electrons pathway flow is arguably the most important part of this cells innovation. The drastically decreased internal impedence is so much more important than is realized.
Impedance is only measurably relevant if it creates a situation where a significant amount of waste heat is generated. Under typical driving loads, a Tesla 2170 pack will not generate significant waste heat due to the fairly trivial power being delivered to the motors, relative to the capacity of the pack, as a whole. If you were to drive a 300-mile trip at an average of around 50 MPH, that's a SIX HOUR discharge duration, which is what you would typically call 1/6C, which is so low that self-heating would be negligible and in colder climates the battery may need to heated(!) to optimize performance.
Ultra-low impedance is great for the dragstrip in your Plaid, but in most cases, not a relevant factor in discharge. Sure, it would also help at super-fast charging locations, but on the whole, EVs are charged at home, not at fast-chargers, the benefit would be one of a fairly trivial amount of time saved at the Supercharger.
The guy on a good YT channel says electrons don't flow, they just kind of wiggle around. It is magnetic fields that flow. I'll find the channel and edit this.
It's not just waste heat. It's also efficiency. Also, time saved at a supercharger is important for some consumers, especially for skeptical late adopters of EVs.
Higher C-rate capabilities generally leads to a longer lasting battery, along with better output and charging capabilities.
YT channel: Veritasium > The Big Misconception About Electricity 8mos ago 15m views
Glad you got into the tab-less name... I was one of those infinite-tab name guys... ;)
I'd been under the impression that the tab was always simply a part of the anode/cathode electrode, I hadn't made the connection that the tab(s) were welded on.
Now that I've realized that, thanks to your getting into it more, it seems even more obvious that welding on a tab is far from ideal.
I can't believe they have continued to use this method to this day. It's so obvious to simply extend the conductive part and slice the anode/cathode electrode and fold it over and contact it all with a simple compression or welded collector plate.
Perhaps it's not obvious until someone does it and we evaluate it in retrospect.
So I'm happy to put to rest my objection to the tab-less name, seeing as how there literally are no longer any welded on tabs... It's so obvious now, so happy to stand corrected... Thank you once again.
You wrote, "I can't believe they have continued to use [a welded tabs] method to this day. It's so obvious to simply extend the conductive part and slice the anode/cathode electrode and fold it over and contact it all with a simple compression or welded collector plate." I think it falls into the "obvious but only in hindsight" category. I recall reading that, for many years, batteries were made with a cardboard casing, and leakage of battery chemicals through the cardboard casing was a common problem. Then one day an employee at a battery manufacturer mentioned this problem to his wife and she suggested using a metal casing instead. His company tried it, found it worked well, patented it, and their batteries started to gain significant market share. Some competing battery companies brought out similar products and were taken to court for violating the patent. They argued that using a metal casing was too obvious to be patentable, but the judge disagreed on the basis that cardboard casings had been used for many years, thus suggesting the use of a metal casing wasn't obvious.
Disclaimer: my source for that anecdote about the introduction of metal casings for batteries was a children's book filled with lots of "one-page summaries of important inventions", so the anecdote might be overly simplified or inaccurate.
@@CiaranMcHale yup.. 20/20 hindsight. Exactly like you always find that thing your looking for in the last place you looked...
... Cause why would you keep looking after you found it there... ;)
It seemed very obvious after that mustachy guy found some patent and made a video with a roll of toilet paper ...
Before, not so much.
Tabbed -> Tabless. This is an interesting conversation. Panasonic had little interest to change their production technique from what was acceptable for the laptop industry, but not optimized for EV (or Storage) cell production. How long would it have taken the industry to change if Tesla did not lead?
I appreciate these deep dives. The clarity and depth show how hard you work to educate us !
That's a great video! Battery Day was all about production and cost. Unfortunately only 1% got this message. Let's keep on spreading great information!
🤜🤛🔥
@@thelimitingfactor I manage a Tesla forum in Italy, and the funny thing is that people only remember the slide with +50% range and -50% cost thinking about a Model 3/Y with 500 miles range for $30k 😂
@@lampiditesla I would say it is a translation issue, but native English speakers also dont seem to understand the difference between cost and price. 🤣
@@patreekotime4578 Trust me, it is not about language. Just listening only to what people want to listen to... 😅
I remember being a bit disappointed with the general lack of understanding of what was presented on battery day. However I guess it's inevitable - most people do not have the technical knowledge and understanding to work out the implications and see it only from a range and cost (edit: I meant *price* of course) of final product perspective, also known as "what's in it for *me*".
Awesome walk thru Jordan. Super enlightening. Having attended 2020 Battery day in person - you’ve observed and articulated more value than what is understood on the surface
Jordan you are a blessing. Just awesome material, love it. Proud patreon as always
Thanks for the support Julian! 🔥
This is explained very well. Like one of those rare excellent teachers you just enjoyed listening to and learned a lot more at the same.
i've been waiting for this! finally! thank you
Thank you so much for all of your hard work you do. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Thanks Jordan! The importance of this series grows as we start to understand the scope and scale needed to make the transition happen. The more we know and understand the better prepared we will be.
Fantastic! Just absolutely fantastic!! Thank you. I’m going to have to watch this several times more to begin to understand it 👍🏻
Most of this went over my head, but the functional implications are clear. Thank you for breaking this down!
Sure thing man!
Highly informative and well explained, even for a non-technical Tesla investor like myself. Many thanks. Subscribed.
I think that in the long run, there will be a closed loop supply of raw materials for batteries. Meaning that as today's batteries are retired, their recovered materials will be fed back into the supply chain which means there will be almost no cost involved except for what is required to process the battery into its individual elements. This will greatly reduce the price of new batteries.
Definitely. We’re a ways out from that though since cars last ten or more years and current production run rates are far greater the production ten years ago. If Tesla keeps up a 50% growth rate it’ll be a while until cell recycling contributed meaningfully to new production. It’s wonderful that we’re able to recycle old batteries to reduce environmental impact though!
the cost of processing batteries is the main cost of batteries overall and recycled materials are currently more expensive than getting fresh raw materials so overall the cost would at best be the same.
Battery day is 100% sales hype. Batteries won't even exist in less than 20 years.
thanks Jordan, really like these deep dives into 4680
I am here to remark how amazing this channel is and how unbelievably epic is this new style of communication/education/information on youtube has become. Disintermediating traditional media and allowing for curiosity unbound.
😊
Brilliantly executed study of a very complicated subject. Thanks
Jordan can explain the complex technical stuff in a way easier for dummies like us to understand. Thank you professor. Felt like I am back to college again.
A best in class presentation, thank you
I will enjoy watching this many times over to help figure everything out
Very informative. Thank you!
Great video! Thanks, Jordan.
Wow very interesting on materials cost reduction potential from vertical integration and local production
Excellent video. So informative :)
Perfect timing as Giga Berlin is getting BYD Blade Batteries shipped.
Excellent content. Thanks.
Thank you
Thanks!
13:50 props for pronouncing Shen Li's name right!
Thank you!
Professional! Well done.
Great video once again! :p
Solid analysis!
Now I can't wait for the DBE part!
Well spoken, logic. First Principals. Team Tesla has no time for us vs them, they are too busy accelerating.
Thanks, I have learned a lot!
🙏
Thanks Jordan! 🙏
🤗👍😎THANKS JORDAN…FOR SHARING THIS UPDATE 🤗👏👏👏💚💚💚
AND WE ALSO WANT TO GIVE A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO YOUR PATRON SUPPORTERS. 🤗👏👏👏
thanks
Great work!
Thanks man!
What’s a great video!
Thank you for highlighting the drawbacks in pouch cells. This demonstrates GM and Ford’s hindrances by relying on LG and SK pouch cells, respectively. Tesla’s competitive advantage is secured by the structural 4680 pack by being physically superior in energy density, cost, and safety.
Thank yoooou
Your channel is a very, very good example how to present stuff. You must have given tons of Powerpoint presentations in the past or written articles/books before.
Nope! Just finally found my niche 🤠
@@thelimitingfactor I might have said this before... but when the smoke settles and there is nothing more to learn about batteries.. Consider being a audiobook reader.
The genius of Tesla supply chain is that they can vertically integrate without directly competing with their vendors. If their vendors provide more value for the dollar (or even if they don't!), they continue to buy up cells
🙌
Good to hear that Tesla decision making is excellent
LiMFePO batteries will be very interesting interface/comparison for your last table of advantages and disadvantages
Tesla 4680 cells being built inhouse including the Battery pack and being a structural part of the car eliminates many other costs plus weight and other parts like frames or unibody construction , not sure how legacy and even new startups can compete on costs if they dont adopt these technologies , along with Gigacasts pieces, some have already seen the light , like GEELY / Volvo and possibly VW and Foxconn. Teslas margins are going to be hard to replicate as they transition to BEVs , we will see in about 2-3 years from today as the BEV world unfolds. Thanks Mr Jordan Giseggi, you have one of the best sites when it comes to Lithium Batteries and their challenges and production and rampups , easy for the ordinary guy to digest.
As adhesively-bonded structural components, perhaps the cell can dimensions and material type/thickness of the 4680 form factor were important considerations.
Jordon is the man.
Give this guy a like!
NOICE!
Fantastic video, nearly as fantastic as your mustache. Seriously, though, well done presentation indeed.
I can't compete with that broom you're sporting, lol. Thanks man
I’ll be very interested when we learn what the difficulties/delays have been in ramping up the 4680 production process.
In my opinion, what matters more than anything is longevity in the form of cycle life and overall durability so it can remain on the road in 50 years
You never engineer to one design point because there's always a trade off.
Ok,
So the best way to increase longevity is remove stress from the system?
If heat is a major cause of stress in cells, remove the heat ... Or rather, don't produce heat that requires removal?
Tabless for the win.
Average car in the U.S. is put in service for about 12 year's. If evs could last 4x that like you are saying and robotaxi/autonomous taxis could reduce total car count even further by increasing the average utilization rate to 5x what the average car is used for daily now?
Even tesla at 20,000,000 unit's a year is more than the U.S. alone would need. 🤔
@@4literv6 20M is worldwide, not just US production.
CATL also is working on LFMP Chemistry in addition to thier LFP.
Can you talk about them (CATL's LFMP) in your next video?
Great presentation BTW, I enjoy watching your videos :)
I believe he already touched on LFMP in a prior video.
I'll get into LFMP in a future video. I've mentioned it in the past, but I've learned a lot since then.
Thanks Jordan for another well prepared presentation. One question about the tabless design: does this design reduce charging speed given the reduced path for electrons and ions during charging? I thought that might be an important element. You continue to earn my patreon support. Thanks
Hi Ed! The energy from the electrons moves at near the speed of light. Charging speed is dictated by the power of the charger and the amount of lithium ions that can be set in motion and aborbed by the anode.
@@thelimitingfactor thanks for responding Jordan. I hope all is well with you. I get your answer and perhaps that solves my question but help me understand a little better if you can ( sometimes it takes a while to get things right in my brain). When you charge a conventional tabbed battery you have only one pathway for the electrons to follow (this is me thinking out loud) so any resistance in the circuit and any ions that have to flow to or from the electrodes have to essentially line up and move as required. I always thought that that was why it takes so long to charge a battery. For some reason I thought the tabless design would allow for faster charging. Is that not correct?
@@thelimitingfactor
Jordan.
I was (am?) of the opinion that generally speaking, a major limitation of charging rate was heat, caused by resistance, causing more heat, causing more resistance....... etc, leading to the so far inevitable throttling of charge rate as the process continues?
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Hence the advantage of the tabless construction?
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It would seem logical that the tabless design resulted in the quoted "6 times power" from a cell with "5 times capacity".
Essentially a 20% increase in not just energy output rate, with less energy converted to heat, but potentially similar ability to receive energy (charge)?
As you say
"Lithium ions set in motion and absorbed by the Anode"...... Without generating heat (which then needs to be removed).
Thanks again Jordan for all your sacrifice and devoted research! Side note, is there anyway to buy your intro music as a ringtone on iTunes?
🤠 The name of the song is in the video description. It's free music from RUclips that anyone can use for anything.
Solvent free is a huge deal for manufacturing in the USA.
20:00 "and uses epoxy" - at Munro they were talking about urethane resin
My understanding is that Tesla is using 2170 and non-cylindrical cells in China and Europe: CATL for China made Model Y and contracted with BYD for Berlin made Model Y. Austin 4680 production should be substantially ramped up by end of year, but the Berlin battery factory is still under construction. So in 2023, maintaining Austin 4680 production and ramping Berlin are going to be critical. But, 4680 design is a journey, your test results suggest that Tesla is not yet increasing the Silicon content.
Well, Sandy Munro recently expressed "surprise" at the low calculated cost, a d the better than expected performance of the 4680 cell during their examination.
"Critical" may be pessimistic.
5 Tabs is an improvement of a 1-tab Design. But a "100% area of contact" design like Tesla is using is superior.
I would believe that a 21/70 Cell with Tabless would perform even better. Since it's able to cool from the sides more efficiently than a thick cell. Important for performance in a Plaid for example.
A note, bringing the performance up (decreasing resistance = heat generation) is also good for cars like standard 3, Y since it would need to carry less cooling equipment like channels, water, pumps and so on. Less weight better efficiency and better economics.
Thank you for the video. It really seems that from engineering perspective there will be exciting times to come. How do you see other companies positioned? Will we see fragmentation or concentration (Old players like Panasonic, CATL, Samsung etc. coming out on top or do they get challenged by new players from Europe and the US)? - Tesla has a very uniqe position, also a little bit between the chairs - being customer and challenger.
I think people are still grossly underestimating the importance of the structural battery pack. It is still early days for this path, but in the long run it will mean a big change in how Tesla designs the structural and suspension characteristics of their vehicles. And obviously dramatically reducing assembly time and complexity. And that is all made possible by the 4680 cells, as they are now a structural element of the vehicle. The apparent randomness of Battery Day covering topics like gigacastings made it clear that this is all part of a very abmitious plan to totally transform how vehicles are designed and built. In a sense, the structural battery and gigacastings represents a whole new vehicle architecture, and 4680 is integral to that evolution. It will take time for people to understand.
The structural pack is a welcome consequence of the system improvements.
Unfortunately, it is also leaning more and more into an non-repairable, disposable, vehicle long before the mechanical components are past their useful life (corrosion, mechanical wear, etc). Munro & Associates already stated that the 4680 pack is utterly and completely non-repairable, that is not great...
If the economies of scale are not passed down to the consumer in any meaningful way in significantly lower vehicle costs, then all of these "advancements" are a fool's errand and only benefit the manufacturer and shareholders.
@@awebuser5914 it’s been said before - the economics & practicality of pack repair is poor. Ask gm re bolt packs. For ICE equivalent, consider replaceable "wet" cylinder sleeves vs hard chrome etc. Car manufacturers already moved away from repairable to "un-breakable" or at least long average service life.
@@awebuser5914
Munro & Associates stated you can't *remove* individual cells, not that the pack isn't repairable.
With the power electronics module on top of the pack, that can be removed.
Then consider that the tabless format will likely reduce load/ stress on each cell due to reasons well explained here.
You're into the "ifs and buts" realm of speculation.
Try "wait and see".
@@iandavies4853 An engine, regardless of sleeve design, can be rebuilt, that is trivial. Certainly, they are not targeting million-mile engines any more, but by and large, most modern ICE drivetrains will outlast the body and suspension in any kind of corrosion-inducing environment (road salt, snow, coastal, etc.) The overarching point is if a "structural" battery pack fails for some unpredictable reason, the replacement cost will be staggering, even if the vehicle is still perfectly fine otherwise. Packs WILL fail, that is a given, the question is does the rush to commodotize a car really benefit the consumer?
Since Berlin's cell factory is now just ending completion in theory it will be able to ramp up quicker as he problems have been happening in the American plants.
Jordan, I haven't watched this twice yet, but did you say an advantage of cylindrical is faster line speed? It is. I'm a ChE but worked in the packaging industry with MEs (I made the liquids that went into the packages). Can lines can go very fast compared to bottles, box, and pouch lines. Can lines are continuous. Prismatic cell lines look to have a lot of start-stop motion.
Agreed! I certainly could have spent more time on the topic
And then there is the blade battery...now going into Berlin Model 3's
All the CATL and BYD LFP news makes it seem that they are crushing Tesla in battery technology. I wish the last few minutes of the video was expanded into the whole video. The US and China are now in a battery war, and this video hinted at the winner.
It's a bit more complex than being a battery war, especially in the long term. But, that and "competition" are each worth their own video.
"Crushing"?
No, it doesn't.
.
As Jordan said, their technology "benefits" Tesla.
As the electrification niche continues to expand the demand for batteries is likely only going to go up and since not all those niches require the best battery running there is a fair amount of room for a variety of chemistries. Tesla is not making a 'better' battery as much as they're getting better at battery making. Their goal is to pump them out by the ton for cheap.
🍿
Have you seen the 4.6 v conjecture on the current 4680 flavor ? If so thoughts...
Not happening anytime soon.
Current batteries can barely handle 4.2 volts.
Voltage will increase, but it'll be incremental and slow
Jordan,
Could it be that 60mn diameter provides optimum torsional strength for the "honeycomb"?
A cylinder (effectively what the cell is?) of larger diameter may have more inherent flex?
That can be countered by greater wall thickness, though from Munroe's findings (thinner cell casing than they expected) it seems that maybe the foam encasing the cells play a bigger role in pack strength and stiffness than I expected (but then I'm by no means a structural engineer). I tend towards the explanation that cell dimensions (as in 46mm vs say 52 or 40) are a result of pack dimensions, voltage and flexibility in capacity, as larger cells means fewer strings and thus bigger steps in possible pack capacities.
You commented that pouch cells have more manufacturing steps than cylindrical. Maybe, but the chart shows several quality checks that are not shown in the cylindrical manufacturing process. Surely there are quality checks, and they should be included so that we can compare apples to apples.
You don't need quality checks when there's nothing to check.
Pouch cells are just a mess.
@@thelimitingfactor Pouch cells may be a mess but there have to be quality checks in the cylindrical line. My point is to include them so that you are comparing apples to apples when it comes to the number of steps.
I think Tesla considered modern canning plant designs when selecting its 4680 batteries. The desire was to rapidly manufacture the new cells and if you have ever seen the speed with which modern canning factories operate you can see why they may have been the model for Tesla. ruclips.net/video/abakFWWTfqY/видео.html
Absolutely correct. Been there, done that.
Am I correct in thinking that Tesla can use all their whirly machines to roll and stuff the battery cases with annode and cathode sheets that are coated in different materials. Like LiFePo4 or Sodium or adding magnesium or silicone or whatever?
Are you planning to look into the graphene aluminum technology from GMG in Australia?
I already did and it's not worth covering.
amazing video, very informative!
Do you think the rumors about Tesla using BYD blade batteries on Model Y standard range in Germany are true? What about LFP with Manganese from CATL? do you think they have any credibility?
I did a video on the BYD blade battery. LFMP is credible. It's just LFP with some M doping.
@@thelimitingfactor thanks for taking the time to respond
I kind of assume that solving production needed added production stages and complexity. This is how engineering usually works.
The best engineering confirms to the "KISS" principle.......?
Jordan, I don't get it. Your graphics show positively charged lithium ions moving across the cell to the tabs. Isn't it electrons that flow through the tabs? All this time I had thought that the lithiumionsshittledback and forth between cathode and anode by way of the electrolyte. Are the graphics wrong or am I?
It doesn't show ions moving to the tab. It shows the positive ions being released...electrochemical hotspots. Meanwhile, the blue electricity moves to the tab.
@@thelimitingfactor If that is the case, then the graphics are very misleading as the ions look like they are all in a line ending at the tabs.
LFP is the future
I’ve been following Elon Musk since before the first biography in 2015 came out. I always knew he was exceptional. This video portrays the scale and scope of plans Tesla has like none I’ve ever seen. Thank you for presenting the thinking and process behind this unfathomable scaling problem. Now I have some idea of what is ahead. Best Tesla video I’ve seen in a long time. Thank you again.
Hope to see passenger airplanes (737) fully electric in my lifetime.
How old are you? :)
Jordan, are you planning a video covering the change in strategy regarding cooling the 4680s? The battery day announcement indicated plate cooling at the ends, but the Munro tear down still shows they they're still using corrugated channels between rows. Does the greater surface area per cell with the channels outperform the plate cooling? Or is the current pack configuration an intermediate solution that will be changed to plate cooling in the future?
Yup! I'll be covering that.
At the risk of jumping the gun, I would speculate that the tabless aspect simply means less heat is generated, so less cooling is needed per unit of anode/ cathode area......?
(This would of course mean that more energy remained in a useful, usable form)
.
System efficiency.
@@rogerstarkey5390 In addition, they need a path for nasty hot stuff to leave the cell in the event of a thermal runaway. Jordan mentioned that a little in this video.
@@patreekotime4578
Straight through the bottom.
You need to make a video regarding the ev tax credit; if you got info on the value of materials and which countries they are sourced from. Figure out which model Ev’s will qualify
They'll publish the information when it's available, I won't need to do anything.
seems like Tesla is having issues pumping the 4680's out tho. Elon said all the Austin model Y's would be 4680, and that only lasted for a few thousand cars. it was switched back to the 2170. We will see if they figure this out and get it going.
Will the 4680 hold it's voltage longer than the 2170? For instance, on the Model 3, there is a significant horsepower drop when you get below 60% SOC. Will the 4680 have a similar performance curve or will it be better?
The teardown on Munroe shows foam and not Epoxy for areas between batteries. I wonder if that's just temporary.
It's basically an epoxy foam is my understanding.
@@thelimitingfactor That makes sense. I was wondering how they would get the epoxy to spread out evenly but a foaming would make this much easier to accomplish. Never knew about Foaming Epoxy until now.
LOL "Here's why: firstly, this is what they named it so shut up gosh."
Hehehe
Jordan, as I recall, I may be mistaken, you did not have the cell you analyzed capacity tested?
We currently do not know specifically what the capacity of this cell is yet?
Typically lithium cells are charged fully to 4.2V, let rest for a specific time and then then discharged at a 1C rate to 2.5V to determine total capacity.
I dont recall you mentioning this and do recall that the cell may have been damaged, thus no testing for this? Is this accurate?
Is there a plan to actually capacity test the cell you will recieve from Munro?
LFP seems to be gaining ground fast even Tesla is buying Catl's LFMP battery. I wounder if they can put this in the 4680 form factor.
I believe they can. But not sure if they will. They get more 'cell' per volume with prismatic cells.
What you think about Gordon ? I imagine Elon bet on
1] really most efficient mass production with round cells and dry electrode[but not working yet] also for other usecases and
2] new chemestries with more silicon anode mix in NCA/NCM and LF[M]P and LNMO!
I guess from standpoint of expanding material while using mor silicon in the cells round form gives more space for volume change between the cells for expanding, like honeycombs of course - the best stable structur of nature. So you a stable form by itself and reserve in space for volume flexibility with new chemestries. Tesla try to use of course more silicon inside but not in production yet. After watching Sandy Munros team's torture with the foam nobody will try it onesmore next year. While mxing more silicon you could significant increase the energy in the cell. Nothing is more stable than honeycombs - like in nature in round process formed to hexagon naturally - only by charging/formating. Its speculation of course but has really charme and potential. I try to think like an Elon :)
3] the shortest way for electrons to pass for lower resistance and important for more performance: higher C-Rates with safety reserve to put it outside at 180°
4] despite using cheap chemestries based at LFP to have an argument for better pricing negotiations with the cell companies of course. Elon needs the own ones only for best perfomance and high nickel [and nickel for stainless steel plan too].
So he knows 3 years ago using more chemistries [announcement of 3] but we will have more of it for special purposes and tailormade for needs.
I wish we would have better CW-Rates with flat floors and more Aptera-Styles e.g. with cells under the seats and instead of a frunk but with more space as onebox-design. Perhaps we have 3 years ahead the robovan wth all plugin-home-el-support and full bed inside, driving me around the world with only solar filling in a week like aptera but in mass production with single-piece-casting and laminated with solarfoil for 20.000$ ?! But do you think ?
In the Chinese market there is currently a race and lots of innovation going around with high silicon technology and sodium batteries. Not much is being said about it in the western media but it’s something you should take a deeper look at. GAC group (SmLFP) and their 600 MILE(sic!) SUV and gotion (guoxuan) battery maker nr3 biggest in China
I did a series on silicon, LFP, and Sodium (1 so far, more to come). You should take a deeper look at it.
Do you think the aspect ratio is a performance consideration?
Not really. Low down on the list.
I believe the current limiting factor with regard to EV’s vs ICE is the charge time. EV’s are currently better in every aspect except for potentially battery longevity and replacement cost. Will the 4680 improve charge times?
There is no "one solution" to charge time. Charging speed will incrementally increase over time for all battery cells used in vehicles.
You don’t have any experience USING an EV, do you?
So 800v vs 400v architecture has no bearing on charge time?
So you agree, it’s a limiting factor
have u done an episode on vanadium batteries for larger grid level storage? just wondering why Tesla hasn't branched out into this for stationary/large scale applications. i would think you would want to diversify, leaving more valuable and supply constrained raw materials (i.e lithium, nickel, etc) for mobile and home applications.
No, because they're a niche product. It's a dead end.
Is this content released to Patreons at an earlier day?
90% of the time it's released to patreons early. Sometimes it's a day early. Sometimes it's a week early.
@@thelimitingfactor Excellent?
I mean, excellent. No question mark.
What level Patreon to receive your valuable content early?
I wonder if Tesla will later license its tabless 4680 cells and the Hibar autmation machinery as well,so we can move to sustainable and BEV World , maybe by 2028-2030?