Interesting video. The old cops I know all swear by the .357 Mag. That said, I tend to be with the “know what you’re carrying and practice until you shoot it well” crowd.
I think that's it. My uncle is former law enforcement (30 years) and we went shooting together, him with his Glock (can't remember which model, but it could switch between .40 and 9mm) and my Beretta 92 clone (Girsan Regard MC). I love love love my Girsan, but he didn't care for it at all. I hated the snappy recoil of his Glock, and he hated the weight of my Girsan. I think he carried that Glock for 20 years, though. Different strokes for different folks, for sure.
I know an old cop who worked in Chicago back in the day and had a dude holding a woman hostage who charged at him and other cops with a knife and the dude took 12 rounds of .357 mag and fell on round #11
Based on my dad's first hand experiences in the Korean War, and the stories he told me, if he were still here, I suspect his vote would be the .30-06 from an M1 Garand.
If he had experiences in the Afghan or Iraq war he would choose a different weapon. He might still choose the .30-06. In WWI Marines used the M1903 Springfield .30-06.
Mine said same , he loved the Garand, fired expert with it and said its just hard to miss with it. From a family member that shot a German during WW2 multiple times with the M1 carbine he just kept coming so he didn't care for the round. The .45 ball was respected for a pistol round. The handgun wasn't always loved though due to loose tolerances and wear on some of them. But if I has a choice between .45 ball and 9mm at close encounters its a no brainer to me.
Spoiler alert: The most effective caliber is whatever you happen to have at the time it's needed. The "perfect" gun is of no value when it's locked in a safe at home
There is always that one guy that had to post this beaten to death cliche. Yes, you have to have a gun on you in order to use it for SD. One would think that this is too obvious to have to state, but apparently that isn't the case. So knowing that, choose the gun that has the best chance at being effective. Then practice with that gun until you are proficient. Then carry that gun with you whenever you can.
@@anthonyjohnson100 - there aren't any absolutes in a gunfight. People have succeeded with guns they've bought, loaded, and thrown in a sock drawer without ever firing, and veterans who shoot thousands of rounds a month have failed miserably. It just depends on the situation, and sometimes even random chance. Yes, plenty of practice does help ensure you'll hit what you're aiming at... IF you don't fall apart under pressure. But it doesn't guarantee success. ...especially if you're caught flat-footed before you're even aware of the threat. I just shake my head at all the people I see, walking around with their noses glued to their phones, or who otherwise just aren't paying attention to who or what is going on around them. Those are the kind of people that a submachine gun and a half-million rounds of practice a year won't help... because they'll be knocked in the head before they ever know there's a problem.
Great review! I keep a Remington 870 Police Magnum leaned up against my safe right next to my bed at night and a Smith & Wesson 686+ under my pillow. Both of which seemed to do quite well according to this data......
Those who choose 9 do so because of the higher round count compared to 40 and 45-understandable. For those who live in states that limit round capacity to 10, stats say that a huge majority choose 40 or 45 over 9.
The Clinton AWB was in effect back when I first started shooting firearms. Magazines over 10 rounds were more difficult to find and absurdly priced if you could get ahold of them. This negated the capacity advantage 9mm has today and heavily influenced me to lean towards more powerful calibers. With the AWB being history, I can understand why young men find 9mm so alluring.
still, a heart-shot (or heart stabbed) perp will usually take 10-15 seconds to go inactive, twitching, 'fetal position' on the ground; animals, same, (bullet or arrow) double-lung-shot animals, i've seen 28-30 seconds before downed, bullet, arrow
Only if shot are placed accurately, I have never had a hog fail to drop with a single 22 short rimfire between the eyes. This is why 22 lr does so good, people who carry a 22 can afford to practice more, and they are more likely to be concerned with shot placement. Personally I am too old to be lugging around a shotgun, and in the home any larger caliber is going to be devastating to the ears, with magnum calibers the concussion will be disorienting. From my own investigations of two teens using a bow against home invaders the bow was 100% one shot stop, and both cases fatal. There are so many things that trainers with NO experience leave out when discussing self defense. It is amazing that they wear ear protection on the range, in a close room without ear protection multiply that by 10 times. As far as caliber, LG, or handgun, pick what you want it's your choice, remember that most bad guys do not want to get shot. And yes there are statistics to back that up.
@@walkingwolf8072 Shot placement goes without saying. Even a broadhead to the leg much less likely to be fatal than a torso hit. That said, I'd rather take a pistol hit in most body locations, over taking a good broadhead arrow in the same spot. HUNTING quite a bit different than being HUNTED in your own home though. I doubt your assailant will stand still while you decide to take that perfect shot or not, or let you know how many of them broke in your house, or where they all are in your home. If you live in a free state, you'll have more discretion on when to take the shot. Even shots in the back can be defensive, depending on circumstances. You might get multiple shots. You might get one. They might run, thjey might not Something a bit more powerful than a 22lr or 22 short recommended, even if lots of people have died from it over the years. You won't be getting to call a timeout to switch weapons if what you brought isn't enough gun.
There's always 12GA 000 buck, so... or 0 buck if you believe slightly smaller is deadlier. there might even be 0000 buck im not sure but i thing 000 is the largest buckshot.
Yes for sure. But it will over penetrate in a urban area home defense. Number 8 birdshot. I saw on the news. A love triangle something. A guy walked up a dude. And shot hime in the leg but birdshot. Took the leg off at the knee. Another incident. Bird shot to the chest. Peeled everything back to the sternum. Now that will take the fight out of anybody.
One of the things that must be taken into consideration is an aggressor who seems incapable of being incapacitated by the weapon you have on hand. Initially during the gunfight your best option may have been to fight. Though after time has elapsed different options may present themselves. Perhaps at first you experienced tunnel vision and your focus was entirely on this threat. The attacker may have switched from advancing on you to moving away and taking a place of concealment/cover. Look for avenues of escape. If one is available, it may be wise to take it(with haste) rather than continue to engage in the fight. The goal of self-defense is that you come out of the situation alive.
Very very insightful. See the video entitled why One Cop carries 145 rounds; an epic near Point Blank gun fight. I find the physics of this curious but beyond that it's moot to me and my country. Guns are pretty much disallowed. In our case we r much safer this way. Granted this wouldn't work in the US where there is a proliferation of guns. Isaac case in point, it does work in Japan though. A few years ago they registered nine gun deaths that year, with apopulation of near 130 million.
@@jamesharris184 I have seen that actually. That cop's ability with his pistol and the tactics he used got him through that situation. His choice to carry so many rounds afterwards I personally disagree with. In my opinion he should remember to utilize a long gun(shotgun or rifle) whenever possible and continue carrying the .45. The criminal he fought that day was unique.
Surprise, surprise , according to this study, the dying 40 S & W is second only to the 44 mag in stopping power. I'm happy to know I'm not carrying a dead round.
The recoil of a 40, is not like a 44, but it is enough to discourage mag dumps. Same principle as using a 22lr is effective but for different reason. People who train, and do mag dumps in real life shootings is what skews these stats so badly. Over a hundred years ago single shot muzzle loading squirrel gun were deadly to the Mexicans, why? When you got one opportunity you make the best of it. The Sharps single shot rifle almost made the buffalo extinct, and in comparison the 45/70 loaded with black powder is anemic compared to modern rifles today.
@@walkingwolf8072 What the hell are you talking about. If a man can't control the recoil of a 40 in a mid to full size handgun, he has not dam business carrying.
@@ArmedAndIndigenous9mm fanboy here. I have nothing against the 40. We have enough people trying to disarm us both. Let’s not fight amongst ourselves. Have a great day.
@@PatAdams-c6uAnd the fact that no matter what caliber you have from 380 to 45 there is only very small % between ANY of them. I know you big badass 40 caliber guys are top dog, but are any of you willing to step in front of Any caliber pistol including a 22 LR and be the guinea pig? Thought so. So much for your machismo!
My neighbor was on a local city police force and a group of us (about half LEO, a few of us former military) were shooting 3-shot timed. Two for center mass, one head, at 3 targets. When I went and matched their top times he said "but you shot the head first. You're supposed to shoot the body first". I said "that body was for effect. One to the dome and the threat no longer exists". He looked at me and said "fair point" LOL.
That's very logical but I was in the ER and watched a fully conscious man, who looked like a unicorn, come in. He told the medical staff he was shot in his forehead with a .22 handgun. I know many people have died from those rounds but it wouldn't be my first choice.
My EDC is a Springfield Mod 2 .45. loaded with Hornady polymer tipped hollow points in my 13 round mag. 14 rounds should be enough. I want the round to stop in the target if at all possible. 850 fps and that heavy round is going to smart.
During my 30 yr career I was forced into three OIS, all w/my issued thirty-eight revolver. In two instances the suspect was stopped right away but in one it took several center mass hits before it was over b/c the suspect was “coked up”. The first two were w/standard pressure 158 grain round nose & the last was w/158 grain +P hollow points (FBI rounds).
During my wife’s time wearing a badge in the 90’s, she permanently retired a child rapist (after he had stabbed her) with a .357 125 JHP. Handguns are not rifles, but the ones that deliver the most energy while still being controllable are our best choices.
@@lanedexter6303 I remember back in the early 90's the .357 Mag was the king of one stop shots. Snowe & Marshell had several books. Then there was the French Goat test.
@@joeltowle2737 THAT takes me back. The 1991 Strassbourg Tests were I think the most scientific yet. And they did seem to correlate with Marshall & Sanow’s work (I have all three of their books). 👍
@@lanedexter6303 I sorry I misspelled Sanow's name. I remember the Federal full power 357 mag 125 gr jhp had like a 95% one stop shot percentage and the federal Hydra shock 45 ACP 230 gr jhp had a 92%. Just awesome power. The 40 S&W was pretty good too and it was brand new.
@@joeltowle2737 yep, I like the .45 I’ve been carrying for 40+ years, but I can’t fault my wife’s revolver preference. She still has her old M66 duty gun. 👍😁
I remember years ago someone did a study shooting Goats to find the best semi-auto caliber. They shot dozens of goats, the .380 won hands down over 9mm .45 and whatever else they used. They concluded by scratching their heads in disbelief.
@@anton1949 I think you're referring to the Strasbourg Goat Tests. They are widely believed to be a fraud, though I have yet to find any hard evidence either way.
.380s are usually pocket guns, they are generally used at a much closer range. 22lr have good ratings because they are the easiest to shoot well, and are generally more accurate at longer ranges than most pistols.
A lot of variables - small calibers used as "back up or belly guns" ranges generally end up muzzle on perp to 2.5 feet have to "factor in" the muzzle blast. Small list of variables- distance, clothes / layers, body type/fat density, mind set / drugs, type of bullet. There's no magic bullet caliber/type.
Some bullets are too fast some are too slow caliber velocity and composition of bullet materials all have to be considered consider a fmj green tip5.56 can zip right through at 7 yards but at 200 yards it will tumble in a human or deer sized animal causing more damage than at a close range
Yes, this was the summary of his report: The deviation in pistol caliber performance is too small to be significant. When I was in the Marines, the .45 was the issue sidearm, and for most of my life I had a .45 simply because of familiarity. These days I prefer .38/.375 for home defense and I have never felt that I would have a need for 17 shots. I also like the reliability of a revolver. I have never owned a semi-automatic pistol that didn't have some misfeeds, but I have never ever ever had a revolver not go bang when I pulled the trigger. For home defense, a revolver is very difficult to beat. My best friend was an 0331 when we were in the Marines and the only thing he keeps for home defense are revolvers. If Purple Heart winning Marine machine gunner feels protected by a .38 Special, that should tell you something. His choice was instrumental in my eventual move to the .38/.357. If I have to use my revolver for home defense, I am 100% confident that it will fire when it needs to fire and if I need a second shot, it will be there even if I limp wrist it.
You do know that a .357 Magnum has a significantly higher muzzle velocity than a 9mm, with a typical .357 Magnum round traveling at around 1,200 - 1,500 feet per second, while a standard 9mm round travels around 1,100 feet per second; meaning the .357 Magnum delivers considerably more force upon leaving the barrel.@@jordanwiser4192
Shot placements. If one is more accurate w a lesser round, you are still hitting a perp w a really fast traveling piece of lead that the body does not like.
As long as you can reasonably place shots, what matters is the bore size and penetration. It all depends your task. YOUR TYPE OF BULLET MATTERS! If you need more penetration, get the bullet for it. If you need less penetration, more expansion to cause maximum tissue damage and avoid over-penetration… get a bullet for that. At the end of the day, of those that will penetrate (as I stated earlier) and you can shoot well (reiterating) , the edge goes to the bigger bullet (reiterating).
Hostage situation makes a shotgun a less than desirable choice. Rifles are far more accurate, less recoil for intermediate cartridges, greater round capacity, greater range. Police over the years have moved from the shotgun to a tactical rifle.
@@M60gunner1971 And they can keep drinking hateraide from that sippy cup too. 🤣 Learning how to tactical 12 gauge is a good skill set to have and it's fun to learn too.
Good info and well presented. There are so many variables involved in actual shootings and this video managed to pretty much cover the most prevalent dynamics. Human physiology, drugs / alcohol, training and mindset are all important factors. I was in law enforcement for 22 years and thankfully, was not forced to discharge my firearm. As far as what to carry, LEO's have to consider portability, weight, recoil and capacity. A five pound .50 cal. revolver may be powerful but, not very practical and your back will hate you. It was interesting to note that the .44 magnum, one of my favorite cartridges, lived up to its reputation as the best fight stopper in a reasonably sized revolver.
It matters how quickly something takes effect. Not coming to the same result a lot later and calling it the same. Most of the data with .22lr is askew based on how common it is and is said to be so deadly by coroners cause they got a lot with .22lr holes in the freezer. Tons of videos with people running around till they collapse 2 blocks down the road or even returning to a store they tried to rob 15 minutes later with 6 hits of .357 Magnum. 5 seconds are enough if one takes a few steps before the stabbing ensues. The time to incapacitation matters.
Of the usual defensive handgun calibers, .357Mag (or 10mm Auto) are the best actual one-shot stops AND lowest failures to stop. They're at that sweet spot of maximum penetration that can still be handled safely and accurately. Best at one-shot, and fewest number of required follow-ups.
@@pkjdm I'm not sure but my memory is telling me the WWB 158 grain loads were measured at around 650 ft./lbs of energy or so by Gun Tests magazine. That's 100 more than what is typically rated these days (535 ft./lbs).
My main carry (unless I’m in the forest) is a Walther PPK/S loaded with a Buffalo Bore +P rounds. Bulky clothes in the Winter makes a 357 snubby concealable
@@lukewarmwater6412 - people would be shocked at how many times just having a gun runs the bad guy/gal off, without the need to fire even one shot. Criminals are cowards, and prefer victims that can't or won't fight back. So showing any "teeth" at all will usually make 'em decide to go somewhere else rather quickly.
The first caliber that lands a crippling wound. There's a good reason why smaller calibers are useful, (1) the weapon is lighter and quicker to use, (2) it is easier to be accurate, (3) you can carry more rounds for less weight, so have less fatigue, and less risk of running out of ammunition in a fire fight. Also if you can carry something with a stock instead of a handgun, your accuracy will be far better. Most of all you need to know (1) where will you use it, (2) what do you need to stop ?
After almost five decades of carrying concealed firearms I’ve learned one thing, the best firearm is the one you’re comfortable carrying everyday. Stopping power is a mute point when your firearm is at home, in the car, or oops I forgot it…. My firearm of choice? LWS Seecamp.
I sometimes carry the Seecamp in .32 as I couldn't even imagine how firing the .380 one would be like. I mostly carry the Sig Sauer P238 .380 with 2.7" barrel. It's a good compromise between size and power. I love small guns.
.380 IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN 9MM in ALL but one metric, according to these charts. I find that incredibly amusing, with all the .380 haters out there. According to this information, one would be much more protected with a .380 than a 9mm handgun. I personally own both and view them interchangeably, except for capacity and concealability. With Xtreme Defender ammo in them they BOTH punch above their caliber in the amount of damage they inflict passing through tissue.
You have to consider why, 380 is a up close and personal gun, just like a derringer used to be when Lincoln was assassinated. It's not difficult to have good shot placement when you can actually touch your threat. Also many people who carry a 380, or 22 are less likely to do mag dumps, which is why the 9mm has such poor statistics.
@@walkingwolf8072 I think the reason the 9mm has such poor statistics is that it is used by so many LEOs who can’t shoot worth crap and have hit ratios less than 15% on average.
@@walkingwolf8072 The chart isn't primarily selecting by caliber, it's selecting by scenarios where just one round hit, then sorting out calibers. It doesn't say what % of shootings were multi-shot affairs for each caliber, it just show one-shot shootings without context. Are we not to expect more "double tap" scenarios with a 9mm or .22LR than with a 44 magnum?
The problem with 380s is that very few of them have decent sights. I carried pocket rockets for years. Then I realized the truth was that I couldn't make the 40 yard shot with one if that's what I had to do. So I switched to something a little bigger with good sights and more capacity. I'm not going back to the 380.
The ultimate Home Defense is not a pistol or rifle. It's a 20 gauge semi-auto shotgun with the rifled/short barrel and pistol grip stock. Deer slayer slugs will drop a moose,blows holes thru armor vest and if not the force is so strong it will push the vest to your backbone destroying internal organs. To take out multiple attackers use double 00 buckshot. If you only want to Hurt then take out the BB'S and replace it with Rock salt.
SUPERB option is the 20 gauge shotgun for home protection I 100% agree with you ... However, if you need to get up at 3 a.m. in the middle of the night to use the bathroom you may also want to buy a handgun to take with you ..Just on the off chance that the home invader decides to attack your home as you are in the bathroom or on the way to the bathroom. A 2-inch barrel snub nose six-shot .38 SPL revolver using a good quality hollow-point round will give you some basic protection while you are vulnerable to attack. It won't have the RAW "Knockdown" power of the shotgun... But it is compact and very portable while you are walking around your home to use the bathroom. Revolvers tend to be very reliable also. A .38 SPL revolver may not be the ultimate home defense firearm... But it can be used as a "Backup" weapon for the reason stated above.
There's another study based on 1500+ events -- numbers are not identical but relative numbers are quite similar (i.e., .380 vs 9mm, 32 ACP unexpectedly effective, etc).
Show the occurrences with each round because if 1 round has 1000 data points but another round only has 20 data points then an adjustment needs to be made
Interesting how 32acp has the 3rd highest incapacitation from 1 shot. Either its super deadly or its a round used by maybe older people who only fired a single round before the bad guy stopped doing bad things.
For automatics, the 45 acp has the best stopping power. The 10mm has the best penetration. Revolvers, it's obviously the 44 magnum, but not everyone can handle the recoil. A 357 mag is hard to beat! What really matters is putting bullets on target. If you can't hit it, it doesn't matter what you carry. Buy a pistol you can control, and practice, Practice, PRACTICE!!! Buy a case of ammo, and use half of it to master your weapon!!!
Nothing beats the ability to out right shock or open up internal cavity. Either with speed or width. No free lunches in physics. Besides the most important one of those fancy grafts was incapacitate. Yes xx.x percent of ppl die by xx round. Sometimes it takes 2 seconds. Sometimes it takes 2 minutes…. A loooooong and now mutually deadly 2 minutes. No replacement for displacement. Literally.
Considering this is a science based analysis the word “probably” was used in almost every sentence. Probably this, probably that. I guess that is probably how science works, probably.
A lot of "probably" be ause while the info can present objective results, it doesn't tell you the subjective issues. For example, 38 Special and revolvers in general seem slightly better than a lot of autoloader calibers, especially 9mm. I would speculate that, on average, revolvers are easier to shoot accurately, and people who favor revolvers tend to be better shooters. Am I right? No way to tell, can't be measured by this study. But I think I'm probably right.
Actually the word "probably" is a fine word to use when doing science-based analysis, because science-based analysis is based on probabilities. Statistics (which is based on probability) is the language of science. We have some data that represents a sample set. From this sample set we can see some correlations. We're trying to infer whether these correlations are statistically significant and also what the possible causations are. For example, he's making an inference from the data that one of the reasons revolver rounds have a higher One shot stop is because they're slower to shoot. That may be the case based on the data, but it's not a certainty. In this case the term probably is a good choice. He's making an inference that has some basis in the data.
@@mcjon77 I agree ... I would added that it is used because there are NO absolutes ... you cannot say with 100% that this or that will happen.. thank quantum mechanics and Schrodinger cat and throw in a little Murphy's Law for those without science ... "a miracle"
The two guns I use when I need stopping power are: 6-inch 357 magnum Smith & Wesson model 27-2 revolver 6-inch .45 caliber HK USP Elite pistol I also use .25 acp, 380 acp, 9mm acp, and 38 special.
Montra during Police / Military firearms training "safe handling, and shot placement" a lot of variables on bullet types of various calibers that change end results. Just hand gun ammo - issued "45" round and blunt nose bullets , 357 issued wadcutters, round, blunt, and hollow point, 9s issued round, blunt and hollow point, etc. A round nose will not be as effective as a hollow point. 40 plus yrs ago - knife slashing drugged up perp took something like 7 - 45s, another 10 - 9s to the body and finally stopped with a shotgun to the abdominal/hip area. Kept swinging knife till he bleed out. A lot of unknowns in real life.
44 full magnum rounds are devastatingly destructive but the recoil is too much for most people. 41 magnums are just as deadly but recoils far less. If I had to choose 2 handguns, it’d be Glock 30 chambered for 45 ACP or Smith and Wesson Model 41 Magnum in 4 inch barrel.
You know it, makes me feel good about my old Model 15 combat masterpiece stoked with FBI load and my 870 police magnum loaded with 00 buckshot, couple police trade in guns, I figure if they worked for the KCMO police they should work for me just fine.
I’m guessing the revolver shots were from old salts who knew how to shoot. This kind of data is interesting but lacks context of range, hit locations, skill level of the shooter, etc.
I did some work at a hart surgeons house, and we got to talking about which is best. He said he sees far ( like not even close) fatality’s from shot gun wounds then any other caliber. And they are far more versatile. Talking home defense distances in general of course.
I'd bet some calipers are mainly used by older, more experienced shooters, while others are more popular to new gun owners as well. That's probably half the reason 9mm has worse scores than 32 & revolvers
To be honest I carry a 9mm auto on a daily basis, but during winter months I carry a 40 cal. As my edc. But my best handgun is my 357 magnum. It's probably the best defensive combination of preformance and power in any handgun caliber, with a 4inch barrel. It's downside is it's a heavy weapon to carry. And although in a good duty rig it can work really well. The shoulder holster is the most comfortable for me. But unfer most circumstances I'm not a big fan of shoulder rigs. Before I retired from federal lsw enforcement I was interested by the glocks. But I'll admit it took me sometime before I got one. And as the saying goes, I haven't looked back. I also got a glock 23 to add to my glock19, and it's become my cold weather edc weapon of choice. We're I'm from we get all four seasons and in winter it can get downright cold and everyone's layered up in clothing. And I carry the 40 caliber for that ability to punch through heavier clothing in colder weather. And I really appreciate how carrying a glock is easy year round. It's a dependable accurate defensive weapon. But to be realistic any handgun is basically a defensive weapon at best. That's why I also have a ar15 carbine and a ar9 carbine. The ar15 is what I'll have as my main carry weapon for most armed incidents. My ar9 carbine is my main home defensive weapon. I added a streamlight HLX to both as well as freeflote handguards, and dot scopes to both. I did add a magnifier to the ar15 for longer distances and for precise shots. But to be honest a hundred yards will probably the longest distance I'll ever have to engage a hostile target. And as a federal law enforcement officer we very seldom encountered situations passed 50 yards. And from the latest information I've read it's still the same. And although my ar9 is my primary home defensive weapon. It still is more efficient and effective that my handguns in any type of armed situation, due to it's longer site radius and three points of contact. I'm considering a ar9 pistol as well. But I'll admit the mp5 even in simi auto is and will be my all time favorite sub caliber long gun. But my ar9 carbine just might be a hair better.
I'm a BIG 1911 fan, but... The increased likelihood today of encountering multiple BGs is what prompted me to switch from a 9mm 1911 Commander holding 10+1rds, to my Walther PPQ M2, with 15+1rds, and a 21+1rd CZ P10F in my vehicle's console.
Back in the early '90s my father was in a fist fight that quickly turned into a gunfight. My father was winning the fight until the guy he was fighting decided to pull out a . 38 snubby. He shot my father towards his mid section but my father twisted side way and the bullet hit him in the right shoulder, knocked my Dad to the pavement. Then the guy turned his attention back to the woman (my dad's girlfriend) to continue beating her. My dad had enough energy to reach his ankle holster to retrieve his 5 shot. 38 snubby and shot the guy in his stomach. Dad had plain round heads(full metal jacket) in his gun. He shot once and passed out . My dad shoulder was really in bad shape, the guy shot him with a hollow point. Dad lived but had to spend months in the hospital and learn how to function his arm and hand again. The guy who shot my Dad stayed in the hospital a day or two. The shot dad gave him went straight through him without damage to his inside. I can remember advising dad to make sure he load hollows after his range time. But that day he must have forgotten... Hope this real-life story helps someone out. By the way, my father put up his s&w . 38 and bought a Charter Arms . 44special.
A .25 ACP hit is better than a .45 ACP miss. Shot placement is a must. Call me old school, but I use a .45 ACP and train under strenuous conditions. Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotgun with the appropriate load and range spray big pieces of meat on the wall.
Besides the magnum rounds, shotgun, and rifle rounds, the smaller calibers will depend on what type of ammo used. I've seen sooo many ballistic gel test of H/P ammo that didn't even open up, and acted much more like a FMJ. Using high quality ammo that has been proven to perform as adverstised makes a huge difference. Shot placement also makes a huge difference as well with the right ammo.
Shot placement = stopping power. The best caliber is the one that you can manage the recoil and hit the target 99.999% of the time. The definition of best caliber is different for everyone.
My warm weather EDC is 9mm, but I have noted a large number of OIS in which it took more 9mm rounds to effect a stop than expected, and the suspect did not expire as would be expected. In the past, Departments using larger calibers, 357 Magnum, 357 Sig, 40 Smith, and 45 ACP, would not have to make as many hits to incapacitate the thug, and he usually died. The 357 calibers, I recall, only needed less than two torso hits to effect a stop. 40 Smith wasn't far off either. My jacket weather EDC is the 40 Smith.
Another thing that supprised me was how well the 9mm preformed from a handgun. And I relise it's going to be hard for some to accept. 9mm with a 124grain. Hollowpoint bullet especially useing a plus p or plus p plus load is a very effective round. And the 40cal is a effective round also. Basically I carry a 9mm on most occasions. But during the winter I carry 40cal for deeper penetration through heavier winter clothing. And as much as I like my Ruger security six revolver. The Miami shootout was a wake-up call for law enforcement. And gave rise to most departments across the country switching to highcapacity 9mm, and despite what any says the ammo capacity in 40cal is a plus in my opinion. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer and trained firearms instructor I've never heard anyone complain about haveing to much ammo. And as my primary defensive pistol caliber now is my 9mm carbine, useing 124grain grain plus p plus hollowpoints. And my all time favorite pistol caliber weapon will always be a mp5. I've come to really like the 9mm ar9 platform a lot. And my ar9 uses Smith and Wesson md76 magazines, which has last round bolt open. And I really like that feature. And I've got to research if anyone makes a ar9 pistol useing md76 magazines. It's just a feature that gives a ar9 a slight advantage over a mp5, and this from a guy who really likes the mp5. And if any ar9 manufacturers happen to see this think about a ar9 magazine with last round bolt hold open. And by way of a thabk you I would be happy to check how well they work.
Worth noting that Ellifritz explicitly stated that a disproportionately high amount of the data he gathered for 9mm involved ball ammunition as compared to the other service pistol calibers. He expressed a belief that if the data had been purely JHPs, its numbers would have likely been better by at least a few percentage points.
What this data cannot tell you is what percentage of shooters were crappy shots. That is an unknown. I say that those who are good shooters, have trained well, stay sharp, will probably have better numbers than those who are not trained or have little instruction and do not practice shooting very often. Lastly, if you can use a long gun (rifle or shotgun) for home defense, I recommend it. Why? More lethality and more points of contact with the firearm which makes accuracy easier to achieve with all sorts of adrenaline flowing. In my 28yr career in the Army infantry, I never used a handgun in a fight when rounds were inbound. Proper ammo in both is important. Also, a shotgun takes some effort if you are a novice. An AR is a simple weapon to get good with quickly. Look at basic training. Young guys come in, have never touched a rifle. At the end, they can now do quite well. The learning curve is not crazy for a shotgun, but with lower round count, you definitely need to be able to run that gun WELL. I love an AR because I know it like the back of my hand after using the M16A1, M16A2, M4. The handgun. If you are going to carry one, put the time in to be the most accurate shooter you can be. Forget shooting quickly if you are inaccurate. Crawl, walk run. When speed overtakes accuracy, you are wasting time and hope is a poor course of action. Go back and look at the info in this video of the 44mag and 357mag revolver data. You do not have many rounds, so accuracy counts a lot. When you are accurate, slowly increase speed. When accuracy starts decreasing, back off and try again. It takes time and patience. Sorry for an old man's ramblings. I want those who watch this video to be the best they can be. Stay Frosty!
I conceal carry 357sig, I have some 50gr Liberty Defense rated at 2300fps from a 4 inch barrel, I keep a Ruger57 with fragmentation ammo in the glove compartment and a Ruger LC Carbine in the trunk, velocity is more deadly than caliber size, a 5.56 is a .22 caliber, but 22LR is nothing compared to 5.56, I'd like to convert my AR9 into 357sig, it just makes sense to me to have a rifle and pistol with the same caliber and magazines, you can literally hear the higher velocity produced by the carbine compared to the pistol
Could the effectiveness of the .44 mag metric be correlated to the skill of a person who is able to effectively wield that weapon? I don't think most people just pick up a .44 mag revolver without knowing what they are doing.
I think there are a few factors behind the statistics. For example, people who carry 44 Magnum and 32 caliber probably tend to be experienced "niche" shooters, and may have better shot placement. There also are many fewer cases with these calibers, so the average and standard deviation is impacted more by a couple of cases. People who carry 45 and 357 tend to be confident shooters, and the extra power versus 9mm gives some margin for error. 22, in my guess, tends to be carried by people who shoot a lot and pretty skilled. Low recoil gives quick follow up. If a defender puts three in the Perp's chest in two seconds, was it the first shot or third shot that stopped him? And close up head shots or chest shots seem common with a 22. 9mm probably has the most incidents, but is that "kind of sort of average shooter" who may not have lots of practice time, unlike a 44 guy, and who is using a 115 grain round nose bullet. Let's be honest, a 115 round nose ain't the same as a 230 grain HP, don't care what the industry tells you. I'm not saying there aren't lots of good 9mm shooters, just a lot of "I got my first gun and practice once every three years" have a 9mm. A 44 Magnum is usually not your first handgun.
One-Shot STOP (not kill shot) to the mid-section is not so much on a specific large caliber, but on the Ft. Lbs. of energy (shock force) on the hit that is delivered leads to a faster outcome in general. In general means that there is a load of variables involved. 😏
Always an interesting discussion. I saw another discussion where a guy who worked in a morgue in a large city who said, on average, if the victim was shot two times or less the caliber started with a four. Three or more the caliber started with a three or less. He also stated that calibers starting with a three or less had a bigger chance of being deflected. All his data was only personal observation and most his observations compared 45ACP, 40SW, 9MM and 380. It seems this report validates his claims.
Maybe he hasn't seen very many .22 cal victims, but you can bet the hospitals and police have seen plenty of them. This analysis here was about ending a confrontation, not necessarily ending a life. If you want to end a life, use a 12 gauge shot gun with a slug. If you want the bad guy to no longer be a threat, but you don't want to deal with a murder trial, use a .22 with high velocity hollow point ammo. You can be very deliberate about your shot placement. Most men will quit after one .22 bullet hits them in the balls. One 40 grain .22LR traveling at 1400 fps, has the same energy as a baseball bat, swung by Reggie Jackson. Take that to the balls.
@@timhallas4275 I shoot with a retired cop. He swore he had a suspect survive a 12-gauge slug to the abdomen and went on to sue him although the suit was tossed. It was difficult to believe anyone could survive that but it happened. Moral of the story is that there are no absolutes in these encounters.
Notice how when the stats benefit 9mm everyone is glorifying the findings, but when the data shows the 9mm actually sucks, it's "take it with a grain of salt" or the data really doesn't mean that much.
@@TierThreeTactical soooo 9mm is no more effective than it was 100 years ago????? Why does everyone say today’s projectiles? Advances in bullet design etc etc?
@@TierThreeTactical tell that to a hunter lol. Or the fbi. You not thinking bullet design is somehow irrelevant throws all this charts and blah blah right out the window. I call bs on your whole video just for that comment.
10mm seems cool, but it falls into the realm of diminishing returns. It isn't even close to rifle performance, so 'energy deposit', and other high velocity effects arent applicable. Its relying on expansion and penetration, like everything else and a 40 will already expand to the same size as a 10mm and penetrate 100% with the right bullet. So, 10mm doesn't really give you anything but a louder bang and lower probably of a second hit. To do better than a 40, hou have to skip up to 357 and even there, only one or two particular loadings, is going to be significantly better.
@@springbloom5940 @Spring Bloom I get what you're saying, 10mm may have "diminishing returns" as seen from a rifle cartridge perspective, but ALL pistol calibers do in that respect. 10mm is much better than the .40 S&W, just like the .357 Magnum is to the .38spl. As a reloader I have Chronoed the 10mm and have seen the benefits first hand. As a "one shot stop caliber" I have also seen that happen first hand while hog hunting.
@@springbloom5940 A man has to know his limitations..... I'll take that 10mm. the Sirius dog sled Patrol carries 10 mm for polar bears, read some of their stories, the G20 I believe and you will take the 9mm and throw it in the river. Also some great stories in Alaska. The 10mm has proven to be adequate Firepower to take down some of the largest meanest game in Africa, just look up Razor Dobbs hunts, cape buffalo, using double tap ammo, I have the Delta full rail, The Rock Island Armory Commander and also the Glock 29, also Underwood Ammo makes a 1850 ft per second 10mm round
So, basically, if you need to stop a threat the data shows a clear preference for a rifle or shotgun. In the home, I don't think there's an excuse if the budget allows for one of the two. However, for pistols, which you could actually carry on your person discretely, it looks like the major calibers perform closely enough that they don't make much of a difference. 40 seems to have a slight edge, but 9mm is more economical for training, and 44 is clearly dominant, but comes in a large package that probably isn't ideal.
Range of target makes a major play here. Deploying a 380 shot is not done from at a 25 yard target. It is most likely less than 1 to 3 yards. Same for the 22 cal rounds. Shooting paper is one thing, add a full adrenaline rush to a tactical requirement to defend your life is another.
The 40 is consistent. When you look at the average for 40 verse 9. The 40 appears to be the better round. I have 9 and 40 but, lean more towards 40 and 10mm….😁
It depends on so many variables that it's hard to analyze. You can increase your odds with a better caliber, but it doesn't mean that your particular rounds will stop the person without good shot placement and depending on the perp's physiological condition (drugs, adrenaline, and psychological condition). A friend working as a Highway Patrolman was shot with a 25 ACP at close range with several shots (he walked away because he was wearing a thick winter jacket). Another friend (off duty) was shot with a 357 Magnum in the chest and killed his assailant after being shot (he survived). Another friend (also a LEO) working undercover used a 25 ACP hideout gun and stopped a drug dealer with one round in the chest. Having trained Military and Law Enforcement Shooters a good part of my life, one of the biggest factors is hitting someone in the right place. Many cops are not very good shooters and only practice when mandated by their departments. We had one shooting between one of our younger LEO's and a perp at 15 feet. Almost 37 rounds were fired with reloads by both shooters. The perp was finally put down by an off-duty Detective coming out of a bar, ending the fight with one shot from a 38 Special snub nose revolver. There is no magic bullet. One of the main reasons for the development of the 10mm (later the 40 S&W) was the infamous FBI Shootout in Miami. One suspect took a 9mm to the chest and it didn't do enough damage to put him down immediately, but he was bleeding to death internally and would have died in a few minutes. He kept shooting anyway, until killed by a badly wounded FBI Agent with a shotgun and handgun. One of the most effective gunfighters of the 20th Century, Delf "Jelly" Bryce, used a 44 Special Revolver (and later a .357 magnum). First as an Oklahoma Lawman and later when he was FBI, he would just show up to deal with a suspect and announce himself. The Perp would usually surrender, it was called the "Bryce Effect". His shots were so precise and so fast that other guys usually never had a chance to get off a shot. Bryce was a one in one million shooter. Many cops are more like our young LEO and hits were luck, more than skill.
The LEO in the Miami shootout was firing 115 grain Winchester Silvertips. IIRC, it stopped penetrating 1" from the heart. If he was using 147 grain Silvertips or WWB 147 grain hollow points, the hear would have been penetrated. 115 grain rounds mushroom out quicker. I don't know if those two 147 grain loads existed back in '86 but they are old loads.
I was surprised at how the 40calber did as well as the 45acp. And the 40cal has a higher amount of magazine capacity. And can be found in a lighter platform. Between my colt 1911, I almost don't carry it anymore. But my glock23 is my second most carried weapon just behind my glock19. And as a concealed edc weapon for my needs I'm happy with both glocks. I also have a sig 320c and while I haven't had any problems with mind, I'm going to trade it for a glock 45 or a glock 17. And i own other handguns. But with the exception of my Browing highpower, none of them is as comfortable as my glocks. Lightweight and reliable and can be carried for extended amounts of time. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer for most individuals the one big giveaway for a armed individuals is the constant rearranging and adjusting of a heavy bulky handgun on their side. And so far both my glocks have been and still are reliable and accurate, my glovk23 came with Trijicon night sights on it and I added them to my glock19. I also added a streamlight 8a weapons light to both. As well as to my ar15 and ar9 carbines. My first experience useing a weapon mounted ligh war wit a surefire 6p light. It did find for building searches and clearing and worked well enough for certain outdoor use. But after using the streamlight, I'm quite satisfied with it's preformance and I'll stick with them. And as my ar9 carbine is my primary home defensive weapon and it's performed well over the four years I've owned it. And both lights work well at about a hundred yards. I'm satisfied with my setup for both my handguns and both ar carbines. But this is set up for my personal needs. And might not be for others. It depends on your location and needs and experience. As for me I got to thinking about weapons mounted lights for use in Vietnam, and came to the conclusion that they might not have been that great idea. And besides the lights advalible we not that great anyway. And besides they would draw return fire like a magnet.
I have done some talking with brothers that came back from the sand box and that have experience with the 9mm, .40 and .45. Except for special units the .45 is almost gone in the military, surprisingly the .40 is alive and well although the 9mm is the standard issue. Still in all they almost uniformly stated that the .40 (with the heavy 180gr) rounds did as well maybe better that the old .45's and several troops that left the military who have extensive experience with house to house fighting now carry .40's exclusively. Having seen several .40 caliber rounds shooting results on the street, (as well as several DRT .22 short shootings :) 35 yr LE) I concur with the assessments. Bigger is not always better but, in handgun bad breath range gun fights it helps but as always shot placement is king.
10 mill is awesome. But by design it will shoot through multiple walls in your house and likely into your neighbors house. The penetrating power is crazy.
I can relate personally a known issue with the fire arm, the magazine springs are too weak so it will ftf on the 14th round. Springer precision makes stronger mag springs, but turns it into a 14+1 that is reliable
Thanks for the video. These kinds of studies are important, but how he classifies and uses the data is just as important. Based on the numbers that you shared, I don't think he's distinguishing between physical stops and psychological stops. As you mentioned, he may not be distinguishing between ball ammunition and hollowpoint ammunition. If I understood correctly, there were differences in the percentages of shots that hit the head or torso. If larger numbers of 9mm shots aren't hitting the head or torso, then we shouldn't expect 9mm to be making stops. I agree with you that in real-life shootings with semi-automatic pistols, many shootings will involve two or three bullets hitting the person who is shot. With a revolver, the number of shots that hit are more likely to be only one or two. I think we should also look at differences among different types of shootings. In most self-defense shootings involving a citizen, the attacker is not necessarily going to be highly motivated to press the attack to some final solution. If the citizen hits the attacker once, the attacker is more likely to try to escape the situation and seek help somewhere. The attacker often has no reason to keep fighting. In a law enforcement shooting, the attacker is often being arrested. If the attacker gives up, he's going to jail. That provides more motivation to keep attacking until he's either dead or has escaped. In the case of a criminal shooting someone, a few circumstances could apply. Gang members shooting at each other in turf wars may want to kill one another, but they are more likely to be taking longer shots from moving cars or in other odd situations. Those circumstances will often mean that their shots aren't in the center of the torso or head. They don't necessarily need to incapacitate the other person. They just want to do some kind of harm and then escape. Other criminals are trying to kill people in order to steal from them. An armed robber may kill a store clerk in order to steal money and not be identified. The armed robber is more likely to be taking a few shots from close range and then escaping the area. Each of these is a different scenario with different purposes. We might get very different results if we didn't group them together. For most people, the best choice in today's world is likely a 9mm because the ammunition is readily available and less expensive than the ammunition for other calibers. If I had to defend myself against human attackers, I'd feel equally confident with 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357 Magnum. I really doubt that there is any difference in these calibers except for how each individual shooter can shoot each individual gun in any of these calibers. I tend to see .380 ACP and .38 Special as being just behind these four.
Interesting video. The old cops I know all swear by the .357 Mag. That said, I tend to be with the “know what you’re carrying and practice until you shoot it well” crowd.
I think that's it. My uncle is former law enforcement (30 years) and we went shooting together, him with his Glock (can't remember which model, but it could switch between .40 and 9mm) and my Beretta 92 clone (Girsan Regard MC). I love love love my Girsan, but he didn't care for it at all. I hated the snappy recoil of his Glock, and he hated the weight of my Girsan. I think he carried that Glock for 20 years, though. Different strokes for different folks, for sure.
I know an old cop who worked in Chicago back in the day and had a dude holding a woman hostage who charged at him and other cops with a knife and the dude took 12 rounds of .357 mag and fell on round #11
Most people with 357s shoot 38 special for self defense. At least those that like follow up shots
Based on my dad's first hand experiences in the Korean War, and the stories he told me, if he were still here, I suspect his vote would be the .30-06 from an M1 Garand.
If he had experiences in the Afghan or Iraq war he would choose a different weapon. He might still choose the .30-06. In WWI Marines used the M1903 Springfield .30-06.
@@Adamorevo while not the 30-06 we still used the m14 all day in Afghan 🤘
an American solider in ww 2 killed 14 germans in a confined space with only 2 shot's
Because it's a very powerful round. But also because it's a heavy platform it is not very useful to carry in your waistband holster! ;)
Mine said same , he loved the Garand, fired expert with it and said its just hard to miss with it.
From a family member that shot a German during WW2 multiple times with the M1 carbine he just kept coming so he didn't care for the round.
The .45 ball was respected for a pistol round. The handgun wasn't always loved though due to loose tolerances and wear on some of them.
But if I has a choice between .45 ball and 9mm at close encounters its a no brainer to me.
Spoiler alert: The most effective caliber is whatever you happen to have at the time it's needed. The "perfect" gun is of no value when it's locked in a safe at home
Any gun is only truly affective with real and regular training.
There is always that one guy that had to post this beaten to death cliche. Yes, you have to have a gun on you in order to use it for SD. One would think that this is too obvious to have to state, but apparently that isn't the case. So knowing that, choose the gun that has the best chance at being effective. Then practice with that gun until you are proficient.
Then carry that gun with you whenever you can.
Say it again please... #Truth
@@anthonyjohnson100 - there aren't any absolutes in a gunfight.
People have succeeded with guns they've bought, loaded, and thrown in a sock drawer without ever firing, and veterans who shoot thousands of rounds a month have failed miserably.
It just depends on the situation, and sometimes even random chance.
Yes, plenty of practice does help ensure you'll hit what you're aiming at... IF you don't fall apart under pressure.
But it doesn't guarantee success.
...especially if you're caught flat-footed before you're even aware of the threat.
I just shake my head at all the people I see, walking around with their noses glued to their phones, or who otherwise just aren't paying attention to who or what is going on around them.
Those are the kind of people that a submachine gun and a half-million rounds of practice a year won't help... because they'll be knocked in the head before they ever know there's a problem.
@@guarddog318 , so true!!! Very underated post!
The most effective caliber is the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately.
Accurately in a string if need be. Double taps and hammers may be needed.
Spread the wealth. Shooting in one area of the body is most likely the problem.
S&w 500
@@johngregory4801 it's the most effective for you. Others may not share your limitations
Largest? Why largest? Don’t you mean highest energy output?
9mm is larger than 223/556.
45 is is larger than 357 & 44 magnum.
Great review! I keep a Remington 870 Police Magnum leaned up against my safe right next to my bed at night and a Smith & Wesson 686+ under my pillow. Both of which seemed to do quite well according to this data......
Those who choose 9 do so because of the higher round count compared to 40 and 45-understandable. For those who live in states that limit round capacity to 10, stats say that a huge majority choose 40 or 45 over 9.
If I was in Cali, NY or Chicago where I HAD to have 10 round mags, I'm going 45, 357 Sig or 10mm all the way!
@@357Franknitty dude what ev, all you should ever need is a .25 acp.
@@M60gunner1971 😄😄😄😄 Better off with a 22lr!
The Clinton AWB was in effect back when I first started shooting firearms. Magazines over 10 rounds were more difficult to find and absurdly priced if you could get ahold of them. This negated the capacity advantage 9mm has today and heavily influenced me to lean towards more powerful calibers. With the AWB being history, I can understand why young men find 9mm so alluring.
What are the odds you can CCW in a state with 10 round mags or get in a defensive shooting without being charged?
Shot placement reigns supreme.
still, a heart-shot (or heart stabbed) perp will usually take 10-15 seconds to go inactive, twitching, 'fetal position' on the ground; animals, same, (bullet or arrow)
double-lung-shot animals, i've seen 28-30 seconds before downed, bullet, arrow
There is no doubt that double 00 buck out of a shotgun is the most devastating of all.
Only if shot are placed accurately, I have never had a hog fail to drop with a single 22 short rimfire between the eyes. This is why 22 lr does so good, people who carry a 22 can afford to practice more, and they are more likely to be concerned with shot placement. Personally I am too old to be lugging around a shotgun, and in the home any larger caliber is going to be devastating to the ears, with magnum calibers the concussion will be disorienting. From my own investigations of two teens using a bow against home invaders the bow was 100% one shot stop, and both cases fatal. There are so many things that trainers with NO experience leave out when discussing self defense. It is amazing that they wear ear protection on the range, in a close room without ear protection multiply that by 10 times. As far as caliber, LG, or handgun, pick what you want it's your choice, remember that most bad guys do not want to get shot. And yes there are statistics to back that up.
@@walkingwolf8072 Shot placement goes without saying. Even a broadhead to the leg much less likely to be fatal than a torso hit.
That said, I'd rather take a pistol hit in most body locations, over taking a good broadhead arrow in the same spot.
HUNTING quite a bit different than being HUNTED in your own home though.
I doubt your assailant will stand still while you decide to take that perfect shot or not, or let you know how many of them broke in your house, or where they all are in your home.
If you live in a free state, you'll have more discretion on when to take the shot. Even shots in the back can be defensive, depending on circumstances.
You might get multiple shots. You might get one. They might run, thjey might not
Something a bit more powerful than a 22lr or 22 short recommended, even if lots of people have died from it over the years.
You won't be getting to call a timeout to switch weapons if what you brought isn't enough gun.
There's always 12GA 000 buck, so... or 0 buck if you believe slightly smaller is deadlier. there might even be 0000 buck im not sure but i thing 000 is the largest buckshot.
Absolutely
Yes for sure. But it will over penetrate in a urban area home defense. Number 8 birdshot. I saw on the news. A love triangle something. A guy walked up a dude. And shot hime in the leg but birdshot. Took the leg off at the knee. Another incident. Bird shot to the chest. Peeled everything back to the sternum. Now that will take the fight out of anybody.
One of the things that must be taken into consideration is an aggressor who seems incapable of being incapacitated by the weapon you have on hand. Initially during the gunfight your best option may have been to fight. Though after time has elapsed different options may present themselves. Perhaps at first you experienced tunnel vision and your focus was entirely on this threat. The attacker may have switched from advancing on you to moving away and taking a place of concealment/cover. Look for avenues of escape. If one is available, it may be wise to take it(with haste) rather than continue to engage in the fight. The goal of self-defense is that you come out of the situation alive.
Very very insightful. See the video entitled why One Cop carries 145 rounds; an epic near Point Blank gun fight. I find the physics of this curious but beyond that it's moot to me and my country. Guns are pretty much disallowed. In our case we r much safer this way. Granted this wouldn't work in the US where there is a proliferation of guns. Isaac case in point, it does work in Japan though. A few years ago they registered nine gun deaths that year, with apopulation of near 130 million.
@@jamesharris184 I have seen that actually. That cop's ability with his pistol and the tactics he used got him through that situation. His choice to carry so many rounds afterwards I personally disagree with. In my opinion he should remember to utilize a long gun(shotgun or rifle) whenever possible and continue carrying the .45. The criminal he fought that day was unique.
@@jamesharris184how many die by poison?
IIRC, Col. Jeff Cooper stated '...a handgun's purpose is to fight your way to a long gun'.
Surprise, surprise , according to this study, the dying 40 S & W is second only to the 44 mag in stopping power. I'm happy to know I'm not carrying a dead round.
The recoil of a 40, is not like a 44, but it is enough to discourage mag dumps. Same principle as using a 22lr is effective but for different reason. People who train, and do mag dumps in real life shootings is what skews these stats so badly. Over a hundred years ago single shot muzzle loading squirrel gun were deadly to the Mexicans, why? When you got one opportunity you make the best of it. The Sharps single shot rifle almost made the buffalo extinct, and in comparison the 45/70 loaded with black powder is anemic compared to modern rifles today.
@@walkingwolf8072 What the hell are you talking about. If a man can't control the recoil of a 40 in a mid to full size handgun, he has not dam business carrying.
@@RCSTILE I second this. This 🐺 character resides in lollipop land.
@@M60gunner1971 What can you say, gun nuts are gun nuts. their opinions are all over the place
Notice 10mm isn't in the study.
Nice to see 40SW did so well. EDC is P229 in 40
@Z06C5, I dig .40
9mm fanboys hate it😂. My edc is a Glock 27.
@@ArmedAndIndigenous9mm fanboy here. I have nothing against the 40. We have enough people trying to disarm us both. Let’s not fight amongst ourselves. Have a great day.
@PatAdams-c6u I agree. Merry Christmas
@@PatAdams-c6uAnd the fact that no matter what caliber you have from 380 to 45 there is only very small % between ANY of them. I know you big badass 40 caliber guys are top dog, but are any of you willing to step in front of Any caliber pistol including a 22 LR and be the guinea pig? Thought so. So much for your machismo!
Me: "I prefer FNX-45 in .460 Rowland, in case an army of grizzly bears break into my house."
Also me: Pocket carrying LCP Max
😂
My neighbor was on a local city police force and a group of us (about half LEO, a few of us former military) were shooting 3-shot timed. Two for center mass, one head, at 3 targets. When I went and matched their top times he said "but you shot the head first. You're supposed to shoot the body first". I said "that body was for effect. One to the dome and the threat no longer exists". He looked at me and said "fair point" LOL.
The one that is aimed properly. A well placed .22 shot will be better than a bad .45 shot.
...of course...
That's very logical but I was in the ER and watched a fully conscious man, who looked like a unicorn, come in. He told the medical staff he was shot in his forehead with a .22 handgun. I know many people have died from those rounds but it wouldn't be my first choice.
Bad shot in leg by 45 do much more than bad 22
Absolutely right. The best caliber is the one YOU can put on target.
@steimy stein, not true and this is proven in the short film: the grumpy ole caliber gimp
My EDC is a Springfield Mod 2 .45. loaded with Hornady polymer tipped hollow points in my 13 round mag. 14 rounds should be enough. I want the round to stop in the target if at all possible. 850 fps and that heavy round is going to smart.
I own the same Springfield. Great weapon
How many days a year do you spend at the range?
The round you describe sounds like the Critical Duty which is 220 grain at 990 FPS.
During my 30 yr career I was forced into three OIS, all w/my issued thirty-eight revolver. In two instances the suspect was stopped right away but in one it took several center mass hits before it was over b/c the suspect was “coked up”. The first two were w/standard pressure 158 grain round nose & the last was w/158 grain +P hollow points (FBI rounds).
During my wife’s time wearing a badge in the 90’s, she permanently retired a child rapist (after he had stabbed her) with a .357 125 JHP. Handguns are not rifles, but the ones that deliver the most energy while still being controllable are our best choices.
@@lanedexter6303 I remember back in the early 90's the .357 Mag was the king of one stop shots. Snowe & Marshell had several books. Then there was the French Goat test.
@@joeltowle2737 THAT takes me back. The 1991 Strassbourg Tests were I think the most scientific yet. And they did seem to correlate with Marshall & Sanow’s work (I have all three of their books). 👍
@@lanedexter6303 I sorry I misspelled Sanow's name. I remember the Federal full power 357 mag 125 gr jhp had like a 95% one stop shot percentage and the federal Hydra shock 45 ACP 230 gr jhp had a 92%. Just awesome power. The 40 S&W was pretty good too and it was brand new.
@@joeltowle2737 yep, I like the .45 I’ve been carrying for 40+ years, but I can’t fault my wife’s revolver preference. She still has her old M66 duty gun. 👍😁
Good relevant information from credible sources, ill be watching your stuff every time it comes out
Thanks for the kind words!
I can’t believe out of all the graphs, how .380 performed so well, for a round that’s hated so much by many.
I remember years ago someone did a study shooting Goats to find the best semi-auto caliber. They shot dozens of goats, the .380 won hands down over 9mm .45 and whatever else they used. They concluded by scratching their heads in disbelief.
@@anton1949 I think you're referring to the Strasbourg Goat Tests. They are widely believed to be a fraud, though I have yet to find any hard evidence either way.
.380s are usually pocket guns, they are generally used at a much closer range. 22lr have good ratings because they are the easiest to shoot well, and are generally more accurate at longer ranges than most pistols.
A lot of variables - small calibers used as "back up or belly guns" ranges generally end up muzzle on perp to 2.5 feet have to "factor in" the muzzle blast. Small list of variables- distance, clothes / layers, body type/fat density, mind set / drugs, type of bullet. There's no magic bullet caliber/type.
Some bullets are too fast some are too slow caliber velocity and composition of bullet materials all have to be considered consider a fmj green tip5.56 can zip right through at 7 yards but at 200 yards it will tumble in a human or deer sized animal causing more damage than at a close range
Yes, this was the summary of his report: The deviation in pistol caliber performance is too small to be significant. When I was in the Marines, the .45 was the issue sidearm, and for most of my life I had a .45 simply because of familiarity. These days I prefer .38/.375 for home defense and I have never felt that I would have a need for 17 shots. I also like the reliability of a revolver. I have never owned a semi-automatic pistol that didn't have some misfeeds, but I have never ever ever had a revolver not go bang when I pulled the trigger. For home defense, a revolver is very difficult to beat. My best friend was an 0331 when we were in the Marines and the only thing he keeps for home defense are revolvers. If Purple Heart winning Marine machine gunner feels protected by a .38 Special, that should tell you something. His choice was instrumental in my eventual move to the .38/.357. If I have to use my revolver for home defense, I am 100% confident that it will fire when it needs to fire and if I need a second shot, it will be there even if I limp wrist it.
@shénmi shenshõu, Marines know quite a bit about limp wristing.
Used to have a Smith in 357 Mag, now i have two Glocks, one in 40 S&W which i carry and a large frame in 357 Sig
I also keep a 357 for the home. Ill take a revolver over semi any day.
You do know 9mm is .355 diameter and .38 is actually.357 diameter
You do know that a .357 Magnum has a significantly higher muzzle velocity than a 9mm, with a typical .357 Magnum round traveling at around 1,200 - 1,500 feet per second, while a standard 9mm round travels around 1,100 feet per second; meaning the .357 Magnum delivers considerably more force upon leaving the barrel.@@jordanwiser4192
It's surprising to see how well ammo under 9mm did. People always talk crap about 22 but this shows it can still stop someone very well.
I work with someone who thinks 22lr is equivalent to shooting a bb gun. And he wasn't being sarcastic. He also thinks its just as quiet.
Shot placements.
If one is more accurate w a lesser round, you are still hitting a perp w a really fast traveling piece of lead that the body does not like.
As long as you can reasonably place shots, what matters is the bore size and penetration. It all depends your task. YOUR TYPE OF BULLET MATTERS! If you need more penetration, get the bullet for it. If you need less penetration, more expansion to cause maximum tissue damage and avoid over-penetration… get a bullet for that. At the end of the day, of those that will penetrate (as I stated earlier) and you can shoot well (reiterating) , the edge goes to the bigger bullet (reiterating).
.22 and 380 came out pretty good
Real life data 👍🏻 One of the best analysis of its kind on RUclips.
This is one of the reasons I personally emphasize tactical shotgun familiarization and training. Not much survives a shotgun at close range.
Hostage situation makes a shotgun a less than desirable choice. Rifles are far more accurate, less recoil for intermediate cartridges, greater round capacity, greater range. Police over the years have moved from the shotgun to a tactical rifle.
@@TexasHoosier3118 They make rifled barrel shotguns and slugs for that reason too.
@@dwighthayes4738 these two are haters maaaaan
@@M60gunner1971 And they can keep drinking hateraide from that sippy cup too. 🤣 Learning how to tactical 12 gauge is a good skill set to have and it's fun to learn too.
@Brian Mouton Situation always dictates.
Good info and well presented. There are so many variables involved in actual shootings and this video managed to pretty much cover the most prevalent dynamics.
Human physiology, drugs / alcohol, training and mindset are all important factors. I was in law enforcement for 22 years and thankfully, was not forced to discharge my firearm.
As far as what to carry, LEO's have to consider portability, weight, recoil and capacity. A five pound .50 cal. revolver may be powerful but, not very practical and your back will hate you. It was interesting to note that the .44 magnum, one of my favorite cartridges, lived up to its reputation as the best fight stopper in a reasonably sized revolver.
I find the 22 information extremely interesting. I really don't care WHY the bad guy stops.
not sure how accurate this is but I have heard that a .22 will ricochet inside the body causing a lot of damage. Not sure how true this is.
It matters how quickly something takes effect. Not coming to the same result a lot later and calling it the same. Most of the data with .22lr is askew based on how common it is and is said to be so deadly by coroners cause they got a lot with .22lr holes in the freezer. Tons of videos with people running around till they collapse 2 blocks down the road or even returning to a store they tried to rob 15 minutes later with 6 hits of .357 Magnum. 5 seconds are enough if one takes a few steps before the stabbing ensues. The time to incapacitation matters.
So few talking about the .32 one stop and actual incapacitated. And the 22 numbers. The guy never really addressed this part of the data
Of the usual defensive handgun calibers, .357Mag (or 10mm Auto) are the best actual one-shot stops AND lowest failures to stop. They're at that sweet spot of maximum penetration that can still be handled safely and accurately. Best at one-shot, and fewest number of required follow-ups.
Eric (iraqveteran8888) also said that on a video and also mentioned that 40 s&w could be a one shot stop too
@@DLI002that’s why the saying 40 short and weak is dumb saying it’s stronger the the other calibers near it’s size
since they did not show 10mm.
your comment makes no sense.
@@grayman7208 10mm has comparable performance to .357, and the Ellifritz study did mention .357. So it does make sense.
@@texasbeast239 Ellifritz's data also shows that .22 is one of the best at % of incapacitations, outperforming .357. So what does that mean?
Always good stuff from you and Greg Ellifritz.
Thanks for the kind words!
125 grain at 1500 fps or 158 grain at 1300 fps, jhp or SJHP = sweet spot for "stopping power " in handgun
Darn right!
I think the .357 mag typically shoots a 158 grain bullet at 1250 fps these days.
@@filippocorti6760 yea its watered down just like 10mm and 44mag....
@@pkjdm I'm not sure but my memory is telling me the WWB 158 grain loads were measured at around 650 ft./lbs of energy or so by Gun Tests magazine. That's 100 more than what is typically rated these days (535 ft./lbs).
135@1550 10mm not making the list??? Sad….
A very popular opinion is that .380 is useless. This is probably the 5th video I've seen on the subject where the numbers prove otherwise.
My main carry (unless I’m in the forest) is a Walther PPK/S loaded with a Buffalo Bore +P rounds. Bulky clothes in the Winter makes a 357 snubby concealable
yep. there is a good reason it is used so much in european countries. (they call it a 9mm kurtz, or short.)
One study shows the 380 beating some of the larger service calibers. People are stupid sometimes.
@@a3300000 yep. most people, when they get shot with pretty much anything are like "ow, stop shooting me!" so a .380 will do just fine.
@@lukewarmwater6412 - people would be shocked at how many times just having a gun runs the bad guy/gal off, without the need to fire even one shot.
Criminals are cowards, and prefer victims that can't or won't fight back. So showing any "teeth" at all will usually make 'em decide to go somewhere else rather quickly.
The first caliber that lands a crippling wound. There's a good reason why smaller calibers are useful, (1) the weapon is lighter and quicker to use, (2) it is easier to be accurate, (3) you can carry more rounds for less weight, so have less fatigue, and less risk of running out of ammunition in a fire fight. Also if you can carry something with a stock instead of a handgun, your accuracy will be far better. Most of all you need to know (1) where will you use it, (2) what do you need to stop ?
After almost five decades of carrying concealed firearms I’ve learned one thing, the best firearm is the one you’re comfortable carrying everyday. Stopping power is a mute point when your firearm is at home, in the car, or oops I forgot it…. My firearm of choice? LWS Seecamp.
Moot. Not mute. Different words have different meanings. Love, Grammar Nazi.
I sometimes carry the Seecamp in .32 as I couldn't even imagine how firing the .380 one would be like. I mostly carry the Sig Sauer P238 .380 with 2.7" barrel. It's a good compromise between size and power. I love small guns.
.380 IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN 9MM in ALL but one metric, according to these charts. I find that incredibly amusing, with all the .380 haters out there. According to this information, one would be much more protected with a .380 than a 9mm handgun. I personally own both and view them interchangeably, except for capacity and concealability. With Xtreme Defender ammo in them they BOTH punch above their caliber in the amount of damage they inflict passing through tissue.
You have to consider why, 380 is a up close and personal gun, just like a derringer used to be when Lincoln was assassinated. It's not difficult to have good shot placement when you can actually touch your threat. Also many people who carry a 380, or 22 are less likely to do mag dumps, which is why the 9mm has such poor statistics.
@@walkingwolf8072 I think the reason the 9mm has such poor statistics is that it is used by so many LEOs who can’t shoot worth crap and have hit ratios less than 15% on average.
Xtreme defender is a beast!
@@walkingwolf8072 The chart isn't primarily selecting by caliber, it's selecting by scenarios where just one round hit, then sorting out calibers. It doesn't say what % of shootings were multi-shot affairs for each caliber, it just show one-shot shootings without context. Are we not to expect more "double tap" scenarios with a 9mm or .22LR than with a 44 magnum?
The problem with 380s is that very few of them have decent sights.
I carried pocket rockets for years.
Then I realized the truth was that I couldn't make the 40 yard shot with one if that's what I had to do.
So I switched to something a little bigger with good sights and more capacity.
I'm not going back to the 380.
The ultimate Home Defense is not a pistol or rifle.
It's a 20 gauge semi-auto shotgun with the rifled/short barrel and pistol grip stock.
Deer slayer slugs will drop a moose,blows holes thru armor vest and if not the force is so strong
it will push the vest to your backbone destroying internal organs.
To take out multiple attackers use double 00 buckshot.
If you only want to Hurt then take out the BB'S and replace it with Rock salt.
Thanks, I'm looking at the Mossberg or Benelli
I prefer 5.56 with 30 rounds
That’s funny.
SUPERB option is the 20 gauge shotgun for home protection I 100% agree with you ... However, if you need to get up at 3 a.m. in the middle of the night to use the bathroom you may also want to buy a handgun to take with you ..Just on the off chance that the home invader decides to attack your home as you are in the bathroom or on the way to the bathroom. A 2-inch barrel snub nose six-shot .38 SPL revolver using a good quality hollow-point round will give you some basic protection while you are vulnerable to attack. It won't have the RAW "Knockdown" power of the shotgun... But it is compact and very portable while you are walking around your home to use the bathroom. Revolvers tend to be very reliable also.
A .38 SPL revolver may not be the ultimate home defense firearm... But it can be used as a "Backup" weapon for the reason stated above.
Please tell me where you heard or learned you can take down “multiple attackers” with 20g 00 buck lol. Its soft lead in there.
There's another study based on 1500+ events -- numbers are not identical but relative numbers are quite similar (i.e., .380 vs 9mm, 32 ACP unexpectedly effective, etc).
what study?
Well, that confirmed all my biases.
Show the occurrences with each round because if 1 round has 1000 data points but another round only has 20 data points then an adjustment needs to be made
Excellent data presentation...
Interesting how 32acp has the 3rd highest incapacitation from 1 shot. Either its super deadly or its a round used by maybe older people who only fired a single round before the bad guy stopped doing bad things.
Wonderful info! Thank you for all of your hard work putting that together!!!
With small calibers, shot placement is quite important. Ie. head vs torso.
I still choose .40 or 357sig, if you need to punch threw barriers they offer an advantage.
Nice to see 32 S&W getting some love there. I've carried that most of my life.
32acp?
Stopping power for whom and where? Indoor, outdoor, close, medium, long range? Mountain, Jungle, Desert, Urban? Defensive, offensive?
For automatics, the 45 acp has the best stopping power.
The 10mm has the best penetration.
Revolvers, it's obviously the 44 magnum, but not everyone can handle the recoil.
A 357 mag is hard to beat!
What really matters is putting bullets on target. If you can't hit it, it doesn't matter what you carry. Buy a pistol you can control, and practice, Practice, PRACTICE!!! Buy a case of ammo, and use half of it to master your weapon!!!
Like the old saying, a sidearm is only good for fighting to your rifle.
Or shotgun
Yep, I told my pilots that all the time. "We carry pistols so when we're on the run we can get a rifle, any rifle"
Nothing beats the ability to out right shock or open up internal cavity. Either with speed or width. No free lunches in physics. Besides the most important one of those fancy grafts was incapacitate. Yes xx.x percent of ppl die by xx round. Sometimes it takes 2 seconds. Sometimes it takes 2 minutes…. A loooooong and now mutually deadly 2 minutes. No replacement for displacement. Literally.
Considering this is a science based analysis the word “probably” was used in almost every sentence. Probably this, probably that. I guess that is probably how science works, probably.
A lot of "probably" be ause while the info can present objective results, it doesn't tell you the subjective issues.
For example, 38 Special and revolvers in general seem slightly better than a lot of autoloader calibers, especially 9mm. I would speculate that, on average, revolvers are easier to shoot accurately, and people who favor revolvers tend to be better shooters.
Am I right? No way to tell, can't be measured by this study. But I think I'm probably right.
Actually the word "probably" is a fine word to use when doing science-based analysis, because science-based analysis is based on probabilities. Statistics (which is based on probability) is the language of science.
We have some data that represents a sample set. From this sample set we can see some correlations. We're trying to infer whether these correlations are statistically significant and also what the possible causations are.
For example, he's making an inference from the data that one of the reasons revolver rounds have a higher One shot stop is because they're slower to shoot. That may be the case based on the data, but it's not a certainty. In this case the term probably is a good choice. He's making an inference that has some basis in the data.
@@mcjon77 I agree ... I would added that it is used because there are NO absolutes ... you cannot say with 100% that this or that will happen.. thank quantum mechanics and Schrodinger cat and throw in a little Murphy's Law for those without science ... "a miracle"
gtate9: Maybe it's a S.W.A.G.??
(SCIENTIFICALLY Wild Ass Guess)
The two guns I use when I need stopping power are:
6-inch 357 magnum Smith & Wesson model 27-2 revolver
6-inch .45 caliber HK USP Elite pistol
I also use .25 acp, 380 acp, 9mm acp, and 38 special.
Montra during Police / Military firearms training "safe handling, and shot placement" a lot of variables on bullet types of various calibers that change end results. Just hand gun ammo - issued "45" round and blunt nose bullets , 357 issued wadcutters, round, blunt, and hollow point, 9s issued round, blunt and hollow point, etc. A round nose will not be as effective as a hollow point. 40 plus yrs ago - knife slashing drugged up perp took something like 7 - 45s, another 10 - 9s to the body and finally stopped with a shotgun to the abdominal/hip area. Kept swinging knife till he bleed out. A lot of unknowns in real life.
And yet soft hands hate on .40 all the time. Yet is had the best one shot stops aside from 44 mag..
44 full magnum rounds are devastatingly destructive but the recoil is too much for most people. 41 magnums are just as deadly but recoils far less. If I had to choose 2 handguns, it’d be Glock 30 chambered for 45 ACP or Smith and Wesson Model 41 Magnum in 4 inch barrel.
12 gauge is the undisputed king of one shot stops. Otherwise, it’s all about shot placement.
You know it, makes me feel good about my old Model 15 combat masterpiece stoked with FBI load and my 870 police magnum loaded with 00 buckshot, couple police trade in guns, I figure if they worked for the KCMO police they should work for me just fine.
I agree burley, 00 buckshot at close range is devastating !!
@@richardherring8220 mines good to 700 yards...
Rifle did just as well in this study, so no.
I’m guessing the revolver shots were from old salts who knew how to shoot. This kind of data is interesting but lacks context of range, hit locations, skill level of the shooter, etc.
I did some work at a hart surgeons house, and we got to talking about which is best. He said he sees far ( like not even close) fatality’s from shot gun wounds then any other caliber. And they are far more versatile. Talking home defense distances in general of course.
I'd bet some calipers are mainly used by older, more experienced shooters, while others are more popular to new gun owners as well. That's probably half the reason 9mm has worse scores than 32 & revolvers
WOW! Look at the little 380's results. Thats interesting.
To be honest I carry a 9mm auto on a daily basis, but during winter months I carry a 40 cal. As my edc. But my best handgun is my 357 magnum. It's probably the best defensive combination of preformance and power in any handgun caliber, with a 4inch barrel. It's downside is it's a heavy weapon to carry. And although in a good duty rig it can work really well. The shoulder holster is the most comfortable for me. But unfer most circumstances I'm not a big fan of shoulder rigs. Before I retired from federal lsw enforcement I was interested by the glocks. But I'll admit it took me sometime before I got one. And as the saying goes, I haven't looked back. I also got a glock 23 to add to my glock19, and it's become my cold weather edc weapon of choice. We're I'm from we get all four seasons and in winter it can get downright cold and everyone's layered up in clothing. And I carry the 40 caliber for that ability to punch through heavier clothing in colder weather. And I really appreciate how carrying a glock is easy year round. It's a dependable accurate defensive weapon. But to be realistic any handgun is basically a defensive weapon at best. That's why I also have a ar15 carbine and a ar9 carbine. The ar15 is what I'll have as my main carry weapon for most armed incidents. My ar9 carbine is my main home defensive weapon. I added a streamlight HLX to both as well as freeflote handguards, and dot scopes to both. I did add a magnifier to the ar15 for longer distances and for precise shots. But to be honest a hundred yards will probably the longest distance I'll ever have to engage a hostile target. And as a federal law enforcement officer we very seldom encountered situations passed 50 yards. And from the latest information I've read it's still the same. And although my ar9 is my primary home defensive weapon. It still is more efficient and effective that my handguns in any type of armed situation, due to it's longer site radius and three points of contact. I'm considering a ar9 pistol as well. But I'll admit the mp5 even in simi auto is and will be my all time favorite sub caliber long gun. But my ar9 carbine just might be a hair better.
S&W 640 is a good carry 357 or a Ruger SP101 3inch barrel. Mine is very shootable with 158s.
Lmao you're overthinking it bud just carry a 9mm and you're fine.
Think I'm gonna pick up that LCPII .22 I've been eye'n.
I'm a BIG 1911 fan, but... The increased likelihood today of encountering multiple BGs is what prompted me to switch from a 9mm 1911 Commander holding 10+1rds, to my Walther PPQ M2, with 15+1rds, and a 21+1rd CZ P10F in my vehicle's console.
Please don't vehicle console carry. Extremely easy to steal with a basic window smash while you park it and the storage is illegal in half the states.
Back in the early '90s my father was in a fist fight that quickly turned into a gunfight. My father was winning the fight until the guy he was fighting decided to pull out a . 38 snubby. He shot my father towards his mid section but my father twisted side way and the bullet hit him in the right shoulder, knocked my Dad to the pavement. Then the guy turned his attention back to the woman (my dad's girlfriend) to continue beating her. My dad had enough energy to reach his ankle holster to retrieve his 5 shot. 38 snubby and shot the guy in his stomach. Dad had plain round heads(full metal jacket) in his gun. He shot once and passed out . My dad shoulder was really in bad shape, the guy shot him with a hollow point. Dad lived but had to spend months in the hospital and learn how to function his arm and hand again. The guy who shot my Dad stayed in the hospital a day or two. The shot dad gave him went straight through him without damage to his inside. I can remember advising dad to make sure he load hollows after his range time. But that day he must have forgotten... Hope this real-life story helps someone out. By the way, my father put up his s&w . 38 and bought a Charter Arms . 44special.
A .25 ACP hit is better than a .45 ACP miss. Shot placement is a must. Call me old school, but I use a .45 ACP and train under strenuous conditions.
Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotgun with the appropriate load and range spray big pieces of meat on the wall.
So true. Just watch "The Deadliest Warrior" episode between Green Berets vs.Spetsnaz . Shotgun was blowing chunks of meat off of the pig carcass.
Shotgun... What gauge? What size shot? 2 3/4", 3", 3 1/2"? Rifle... What caliber? Bullet? Barrel length?
These questions are answered in the link in the description.
Besides the magnum rounds, shotgun, and rifle rounds, the smaller calibers will depend on what type of ammo used. I've seen sooo many ballistic gel test of H/P ammo that didn't even open up, and acted much more like a FMJ. Using high quality ammo that has been proven to perform as adverstised makes a huge difference. Shot placement also makes a huge difference as well with the right ammo.
Shot placement = stopping power. The best caliber is the one that you can manage the recoil and hit the target 99.999% of the time. The definition of best caliber is different for everyone.
Must be a great shot at 99.999999999999%
Shot placement is king
My warm weather EDC is 9mm, but I have noted a large number of OIS in which it took more 9mm rounds to effect a stop than expected, and the suspect did not expire as would be expected. In the past, Departments using larger calibers, 357 Magnum, 357 Sig, 40 Smith, and 45 ACP, would not have to make as many hits to incapacitate the thug, and he usually died. The 357 calibers, I recall, only needed less than two torso hits to effect a stop. 40 Smith wasn't far off either. My jacket weather EDC is the 40 Smith.
Another thing that supprised me was how well the 9mm preformed from a handgun. And I relise it's going to be hard for some to accept. 9mm with a 124grain. Hollowpoint bullet especially useing a plus p or plus p plus load is a very effective round. And the 40cal is a effective round also. Basically I carry a 9mm on most occasions. But during the winter I carry 40cal for deeper penetration through heavier winter clothing. And as much as I like my Ruger security six revolver. The Miami shootout was a wake-up call for law enforcement. And gave rise to most departments across the country switching to highcapacity 9mm, and despite what any says the ammo capacity in 40cal is a plus in my opinion. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer and trained firearms instructor I've never heard anyone complain about haveing to much ammo. And as my primary defensive pistol caliber now is my 9mm carbine, useing 124grain grain plus p plus hollowpoints. And my all time favorite pistol caliber weapon will always be a mp5. I've come to really like the 9mm ar9 platform a lot. And my ar9 uses Smith and Wesson md76 magazines, which has last round bolt open. And I really like that feature. And I've got to research if anyone makes a ar9 pistol useing md76 magazines. It's just a feature that gives a ar9 a slight advantage over a mp5, and this from a guy who really likes the mp5. And if any ar9 manufacturers happen to see this think about a ar9 magazine with last round bolt hold open. And by way of a thabk you I would be happy to check how well they work.
Worth noting that Ellifritz explicitly stated that a disproportionately high amount of the data he gathered for 9mm involved ball ammunition as compared to the other service pistol calibers. He expressed a belief that if the data had been purely JHPs, its numbers would have likely been better by at least a few percentage points.
Civil war stats had the 44 C&B had a real life 60% 1 shot stop
Which ever one you have on your hand when the gunfight starts
What this data cannot tell you is what percentage of shooters were crappy shots. That is an unknown. I say that those who are good shooters, have trained well, stay sharp, will probably have better numbers than those who are not trained or have little instruction and do not practice shooting very often.
Lastly, if you can use a long gun (rifle or shotgun) for home defense, I recommend it. Why? More lethality and more points of contact with the firearm which makes accuracy easier to achieve with all sorts of adrenaline flowing. In my 28yr career in the Army infantry, I never used a handgun in a fight when rounds were inbound. Proper ammo in both is important. Also, a shotgun takes some effort if you are a novice. An AR is a simple weapon to get good with quickly. Look at basic training. Young guys come in, have never touched a rifle. At the end, they can now do quite well. The learning curve is not crazy for a shotgun, but with lower round count, you definitely need to be able to run that gun WELL. I love an AR because I know it like the back of my hand after using the M16A1, M16A2, M4.
The handgun. If you are going to carry one, put the time in to be the most accurate shooter you can be. Forget shooting quickly if you are inaccurate. Crawl, walk run. When speed overtakes accuracy, you are wasting time and hope is a poor course of action. Go back and look at the info in this video of the 44mag and 357mag revolver data. You do not have many rounds, so accuracy counts a lot. When you are accurate, slowly increase speed. When accuracy starts decreasing, back off and try again. It takes time and patience. Sorry for an old man's ramblings. I want those who watch this video to be the best they can be. Stay Frosty!
I conceal carry 357sig, I have some 50gr Liberty Defense rated at 2300fps from a 4 inch barrel, I keep a Ruger57 with fragmentation ammo in the glove compartment and a Ruger LC Carbine in the trunk, velocity is more deadly than caliber size, a 5.56 is a .22 caliber, but 22LR is nothing compared to 5.56, I'd like to convert my AR9 into 357sig, it just makes sense to me to have a rifle and pistol with the same caliber and magazines, you can literally hear the higher velocity produced by the carbine compared to the pistol
Shot placement is the most important aspect of self defense shooting but center of mass shots are far more deadly with a higher velocity round
If I see a gun pointed in my direction I'm stopping, How's that for stopping power.
Hard to argue with that!
10mm closer to 44 mag numbers?
So does the .22 category in these studies cover 22 WMR (magnum) and as well as 22 long rifle? Or just one or the other?
Could the effectiveness of the .44 mag metric be correlated to the skill of a person who is able to effectively wield that weapon? I don't think most people just pick up a .44 mag revolver without knowing what they are doing.
.44mag only works if you preface each shot by saying 'Go ahead, make my day.'
Lol,how many events with a real 44 magnum round have ever occured?
I think there are a few factors behind the statistics. For example, people who carry 44 Magnum and 32 caliber probably tend to be experienced "niche" shooters, and may have better shot placement. There also are many fewer cases with these calibers, so the average and standard deviation is impacted more by a couple of cases.
People who carry 45 and 357 tend to be confident shooters, and the extra power versus 9mm gives some margin for error.
22, in my guess, tends to be carried by people who shoot a lot and pretty skilled. Low recoil gives quick follow up. If a defender puts three in the Perp's chest in two seconds, was it the first shot or third shot that stopped him? And close up head shots or chest shots seem common with a 22.
9mm probably has the most incidents, but is that "kind of sort of average shooter" who may not have lots of practice time, unlike a 44 guy, and who is using a 115 grain round nose bullet.
Let's be honest, a 115 round nose ain't the same as a 230 grain HP, don't care what the industry tells you.
I'm not saying there aren't lots of good 9mm shooters, just a lot of "I got my first gun and practice once every three years" have a 9mm. A 44 Magnum is usually not your first handgun.
One-Shot STOP (not kill shot) to the mid-section is not so much on a specific large caliber, but on the Ft. Lbs. of energy (shock force) on the hit that is delivered leads to a faster outcome in general. In general means that there is a load of variables involved. 😏
Always an interesting discussion. I saw another discussion where a guy who worked in a morgue in a large city who said, on average, if the victim was shot two times or less the caliber started with a four. Three or more the caliber started with a three or less. He also stated that calibers starting with a three or less had a bigger chance of being deflected. All his data was only personal observation and most his observations compared 45ACP, 40SW, 9MM and 380.
It seems this report validates his claims.
Maybe he hasn't seen very many .22 cal victims, but you can bet the hospitals and police have seen plenty of them. This analysis here was about ending a confrontation, not necessarily ending a life. If you want to end a life, use a 12 gauge shot gun with a slug. If you want the bad guy to no longer be a threat, but you don't want to deal with a murder trial, use a .22 with high velocity hollow point ammo. You can be very deliberate about your shot placement. Most men will quit after one .22 bullet hits them in the balls. One 40 grain .22LR traveling at 1400 fps, has the same energy as a baseball bat, swung by Reggie Jackson. Take that to the balls.
@@timhallas4275 I shoot with a retired cop. He swore he had a suspect survive a 12-gauge slug to the abdomen and went on to sue him although the suit was tossed. It was difficult to believe anyone could survive that but it happened. Moral of the story is that there are no absolutes in these encounters.
@@gustavgordon Most people will survive any bullet or slug to the abdomen. So what.
@@timhallas4275 - so you think you’ll be tried for murder but not tried for shooting someone in the balls? Knock yourself out!
Best gun fighter are those who actually know how to act when someone eles is dropping hammers back at you
The most effective caliber is the one that you can hit where. Your aiming repeatedly under stress
Notice how when the stats benefit 9mm everyone is glorifying the findings, but when the data shows the 9mm actually sucks, it's "take it with a grain of salt" or the data really doesn't mean that much.
For all in need of info on the effectiveness of ammunition we owe Greg Ellifritz a debt of gratitude. This is a fascinating study.
We sure do.
The particular bullet that is loaded into the cartridge is going to have a HUGE effect on the cartridges effectiveness.
No it isn't.
@@TierThreeTactical thank you for your wisdom.
@@TierThreeTactical soooo 9mm is no more effective than it was 100 years ago????? Why does everyone say today’s projectiles? Advances in bullet design etc etc?
You’re right 100% how would it not matter
@@TierThreeTactical tell that to a hunter lol. Or the fbi. You not thinking bullet design is somehow irrelevant throws all this charts and blah blah right out the window. I call bs on your whole video just for that comment.
This chart makes the .40 look good, imagine how the best mm would look on here. 😘 I ❤ 10mm
10mm seems cool, but it falls into the realm of diminishing returns. It isn't even close to rifle performance, so 'energy deposit', and other high velocity effects arent applicable. Its relying on expansion and penetration, like everything else and a 40 will already expand to the same size as a 10mm and penetrate 100% with the right bullet. So, 10mm doesn't really give you anything but a louder bang and lower probably of a second hit. To do better than a 40, hou have to skip up to 357 and even there, only one or two particular loadings, is going to be significantly better.
@@springbloom5940 @Spring Bloom I get what you're saying, 10mm may have "diminishing returns" as seen from a rifle cartridge perspective, but ALL pistol calibers do in that respect. 10mm is much better than the .40 S&W, just like the .357 Magnum is to the .38spl. As a reloader I have Chronoed the 10mm and have seen the benefits first hand. As a "one shot stop caliber" I have also seen that happen first hand while hog hunting.
@@springbloom5940 A man has to know his limitations..... I'll take that 10mm. the Sirius dog sled Patrol carries 10 mm for polar bears, read some of their stories, the G20 I believe and you will take the 9mm and throw it in the river. Also some great stories in Alaska. The 10mm has proven to be adequate Firepower to take down some of the largest meanest game in Africa, just look up Razor Dobbs hunts, cape buffalo, using double tap ammo, I have the Delta full rail, The Rock Island Armory Commander and also the Glock 29, also Underwood Ammo makes a 1850 ft per second 10mm round
@@lynch6642
Thats a penetration issue. That kind of penetration is unnecessary for Humans.
@@springbloom5940 I don't care. Then I guess the 12 gauge and rifle and the .44 Magnum are also ?
Something is better than nothing. Naive comments generally miss the idea that you must have it on your person always. SMH
So, basically, if you need to stop a threat the data shows a clear preference for a rifle or shotgun. In the home, I don't think there's an excuse if the budget allows for one of the two. However, for pistols, which you could actually carry on your person discretely, it looks like the major calibers perform closely enough that they don't make much of a difference. 40 seems to have a slight edge, but 9mm is more economical for training, and 44 is clearly dominant, but comes in a large package that probably isn't ideal.
Range of target makes a major play here. Deploying a 380 shot is not done from at a 25 yard target. It is most likely less than 1 to 3 yards. Same for the 22 cal rounds. Shooting paper is one thing, add a full adrenaline rush to a tactical requirement to defend your life is another.
The 40 is consistent. When you look at the average for 40 verse 9. The 40 appears to be the better round. I have 9 and 40 but, lean more towards 40 and 10mm….😁
NATO and US Army "Handbook on Human Vulnerability"...22LR, 9mm, 45ACP...no discernible difference. "Classified" live animal testing.
Been done (very thoroughly) before. See: Even Marshall stopping power list.
32 score as well 45acp. Beretta 32acp model 81 sure carry easier than my 1911.
LuckyGunner does a great video on 32ACP. He says it's the best big small caliber
You guys believe that a 32 acp is as effective as 45 acp because of this video? 🤣
It depends on so many variables that it's hard to analyze. You can increase your odds with a better caliber, but it doesn't mean that your particular rounds will stop the person without good shot placement and depending on the perp's physiological condition (drugs, adrenaline, and psychological condition). A friend working as a Highway Patrolman was shot with a 25 ACP at close range with several shots (he walked away because he was wearing a thick winter jacket). Another friend (off duty) was shot with a 357 Magnum in the chest and killed his assailant after being shot (he survived). Another friend (also a LEO) working undercover used a 25 ACP hideout gun and stopped a drug dealer with one round in the chest. Having trained Military and Law Enforcement Shooters a good part of my life, one of the biggest factors is hitting someone in the right place. Many cops are not very good shooters and only practice when mandated by their departments. We had one shooting between one of our younger LEO's and a perp at 15 feet. Almost 37 rounds were fired with reloads by both shooters. The perp was finally put down by an off-duty Detective coming out of a bar, ending the fight with one shot from a 38 Special snub nose revolver. There is no magic bullet. One of the main reasons for the development of the 10mm (later the 40 S&W) was the infamous FBI Shootout in Miami. One suspect took a 9mm to the chest and it didn't do enough damage to put him down immediately, but he was bleeding to death internally and would have died in a few minutes. He kept shooting anyway, until killed by a badly wounded FBI Agent with a shotgun and handgun. One of the most effective gunfighters of the 20th Century, Delf "Jelly" Bryce, used a 44 Special Revolver (and later a .357 magnum). First as an Oklahoma Lawman and later when he was FBI, he would just show up to deal with a suspect and announce himself. The Perp would usually surrender, it was called the "Bryce Effect". His shots were so precise and so fast that other guys usually never had a chance to get off a shot. Bryce was a one in one million shooter. Many cops are more like our young LEO and hits were luck, more than skill.
The LEO in the Miami shootout was firing 115 grain Winchester Silvertips. IIRC, it stopped penetrating 1" from the heart. If he was using 147 grain Silvertips or WWB 147 grain hollow points, the hear would have been penetrated. 115 grain rounds mushroom out quicker. I don't know if those two 147 grain loads existed back in '86 but they are old loads.
The best caliber is the one you have in your hand when the party starts!
I was surprised at how the 40calber did as well as the 45acp. And the 40cal has a higher amount of magazine capacity. And can be found in a lighter platform. Between my colt 1911, I almost don't carry it anymore. But my glock23 is my second most carried weapon just behind my glock19. And as a concealed edc weapon for my needs I'm happy with both glocks. I also have a sig 320c and while I haven't had any problems with mind, I'm going to trade it for a glock 45 or a glock 17. And i own other handguns. But with the exception of my Browing highpower, none of them is as comfortable as my glocks. Lightweight and reliable and can be carried for extended amounts of time. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer for most individuals the one big giveaway for a armed individuals is the constant rearranging and adjusting of a heavy bulky handgun on their side. And so far both my glocks have been and still are reliable and accurate, my glovk23 came with Trijicon night sights on it and I added them to my glock19. I also added a streamlight 8a weapons light to both. As well as to my ar15 and ar9 carbines. My first experience useing a weapon mounted ligh war wit a surefire 6p light. It did find for building searches and clearing and worked well enough for certain outdoor use. But after using the streamlight, I'm quite satisfied with it's preformance and I'll stick with them. And as my ar9 carbine is my primary home defensive weapon and it's performed well over the four years I've owned it. And both lights work well at about a hundred yards. I'm satisfied with my setup for both my handguns and both ar carbines. But this is set up for my personal needs. And might not be for others. It depends on your location and needs and experience. As for me I got to thinking about weapons mounted lights for use in Vietnam, and came to the conclusion that they might not have been that great idea. And besides the lights advalible we not that great anyway. And besides they would draw return fire like a magnet.
I have done some talking with brothers that came back from the sand box and that have experience with the 9mm, .40 and .45. Except for special units the .45 is almost gone in the military, surprisingly the .40 is alive and well although the 9mm is the standard issue. Still in all they almost uniformly stated that the .40 (with the heavy 180gr) rounds did as well maybe better that the old .45's and several troops that left the military who have extensive experience with house to house fighting now carry .40's exclusively. Having seen several .40 caliber rounds shooting results on the street, (as well as several DRT .22 short shootings :) 35 yr LE) I concur with the assessments. Bigger is not always better but, in handgun bad breath range gun fights it helps but as always shot placement is king.
the best stoping power is the one that hits a vital area no matter the caliber
With the pistols there is also a training caliber correlation, 10mm or 357 might be carried by more proficient shooter
I'm strongly considering the new Smith & Wesson 10mm in 4.6"
G29 sf. I love shooting this gun. I’m amazed how many people have an opinion on 10 mm sub compacts but never shot one.
10 mill is awesome. But by design it will shoot through multiple walls in your house and likely into your neighbors house. The penetrating power is crazy.
Not me, I'll stick to my 32 revolver with a 22 lr backup.
I can relate personally a known issue with the fire arm, the magazine springs are too weak so it will ftf on the 14th round. Springer precision makes stronger mag springs, but turns it into a 14+1 that is reliable
There is no doubt energy has a big impact on stopping power, I agree, placement is key.
I would be willing to bet that a 3” magnum 12 gauge sabot slug would be a definite one shot drop in the torso or head shot!!!
Thanks for the video.
These kinds of studies are important, but how he classifies and uses the data is just as important. Based on the numbers that you shared, I don't think he's distinguishing between physical stops and psychological stops. As you mentioned, he may not be distinguishing between ball ammunition and hollowpoint ammunition. If I understood correctly, there were differences in the percentages of shots that hit the head or torso. If larger numbers of 9mm shots aren't hitting the head or torso, then we shouldn't expect 9mm to be making stops. I agree with you that in real-life shootings with semi-automatic pistols, many shootings will involve two or three bullets hitting the person who is shot. With a revolver, the number of shots that hit are more likely to be only one or two.
I think we should also look at differences among different types of shootings. In most self-defense shootings involving a citizen, the attacker is not necessarily going to be highly motivated to press the attack to some final solution. If the citizen hits the attacker once, the attacker is more likely to try to escape the situation and seek help somewhere. The attacker often has no reason to keep fighting. In a law enforcement shooting, the attacker is often being arrested. If the attacker gives up, he's going to jail. That provides more motivation to keep attacking until he's either dead or has escaped. In the case of a criminal shooting someone, a few circumstances could apply. Gang members shooting at each other in turf wars may want to kill one another, but they are more likely to be taking longer shots from moving cars or in other odd situations. Those circumstances will often mean that their shots aren't in the center of the torso or head. They don't necessarily need to incapacitate the other person. They just want to do some kind of harm and then escape. Other criminals are trying to kill people in order to steal from them. An armed robber may kill a store clerk in order to steal money and not be identified. The armed robber is more likely to be taking a few shots from close range and then escaping the area. Each of these is a different scenario with different purposes. We might get very different results if we didn't group them together.
For most people, the best choice in today's world is likely a 9mm because the ammunition is readily available and less expensive than the ammunition for other calibers. If I had to defend myself against human attackers, I'd feel equally confident with 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357 Magnum. I really doubt that there is any difference in these calibers except for how each individual shooter can shoot each individual gun in any of these calibers. I tend to see .380 ACP and .38 Special as being just behind these four.
You mentioned not being able to shoot a revolver quickly. I suggest you read Ed McGivern’s book. Fast and Fancy revolver shooting.