Alternate History Special 001
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- In which we consider a number of possible alternate history scenarios, mostly about the Bismarck!
Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel
00:00:35 - Stalingrad vs 1940's Battleships
00:01:39 - Hornet and Enterprise at Coral Sea
00:03:33 - Electroboots 1 year early
00:05:08 - Alaska class vs Scharnhorst class
00:07:37 - Nelson Vs Iowa and Kongo vs Scharnhorst
00:10:59 - Japanese attempt to invade Hawaii in 1941
00:14:07 - What if Graf Zeppelin sailed with Bismarck?
00:16:31 - What is Bismarck made it to France?
00:19:49 - What if Germany had been able to maintain a proper fleet in the 1920's and 1930's?
00:22:12 - What if Hood hadn't taken the unlucky hit that sank it?
00:31:20 - Bismarck sails with Tirpitz and both Scharnhorsts?
There’s something deeply poetic about the entire Japanese fleet impotently trapped in their own successful invasion.
Aircraft carriers in battleship fights you say.
HMS Formidable: yes fellow battleships let us conduct the fighting on these Italians.
Cunningham: Formidable you're an aircraft carrier, get out of here!
What battle(s) are you referencing? I've only recently gotten naval history and my knowledge of the Mediterranean theater is lacking
@@basicpigeonbee battle of Cape matapan
@@basicpigeonbee British Fairey Swordfish torpedo bombers severely damaged the Italian navy at Taranto. Not bad for a plane that some say we’re obsolete. They were actually an effective STOL that could operate with a heavy ordnance load from carrier decks heaving over Atlantic swells. The Taranto raid was copied by Yamamoto at Pearl Harbor.
USS White Plains is off to one side chuckling with the rest of Taffy 3's Casablancas.
@@aaronstallings4852 "hold on boys, we're suckering them into 40 mm range
I can't even decide which type of your videos I like more. The Drydocks are amazing, the guides and specials are amazing, and now this.... You just keep making great stuff.
Who said you have to pick. Just sit back and enjoy. 👍
I hate to point it out, but "The (theoretical) worst-case scenario" for Hood was probably what happened historically...
Normally I'm deeply wary of alternate history discussions. But this was well reasoned and argued.
"Quantity has a quality all of its own"
*Laughing in T-34*
**snickers in Sherman**
LazerPig made a whole video about the failings of the T-34, and that between the natural failures resulting from poor construction/maintenance and the actual fighting with the Germans, they were actually loosing tanks faster then they were building them... which... is impressive?
@@RipOffProductionsLLC nice, finally someone who watch that vid, really, the meme need to stop here
I'm learning so much stuff!
I tried Bismarck, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Tirpitz VS KGV, PoW, Hood, Repulse in Atlantic Fleet as the British.
All four German ships sunk with heavy damage to KGV and PoW, medium damage to Hold and light damage to Repulse. A close battle just as you said and deffinately would have been closer in real life because I didn't control the fleet and German accuracy would have been higher than it was.
Atlantic fleet is even worse historically than WoWs.
The final fight - don't forget the RN would have brought all the fleet DDs with torps......
Just played your scenario in Atlantic Fleet... I got very lucky finding the range and scoring at least one hit in my first salvo with every ship... The AI focused only on the KGV and at the end of the match it was scuttled only having its rear turret capable... MVP was the Repulse having hits on all German ships and getting the killing blow on the Gneisenau and sinking the Prince Euigon in only three salvos... The scenario would play out very differently if I didn't let the AI play the other side in my opinion
Andrew Beers I once did a scenario to simulate the RN trying to sink he Bismarck, with several ships of many classes included.
.... And then I fired with Rodney’s guns(after doing everything else’s actions), went in right at the waterline near the bow, and detonated Bismarck’s magazines. On the first turn. SMH. I’m way too good at aiming battleship guns and way too bad at aiming everything smaller than a battleship gun. I can consistently straddle with 14” guns but can’t hit the broadside of a Bismarck at most ranges with 8” guns.
Did I mention I like Atlantic Fleet? Lol.
The AI in Atlantic fleet will pretty much always focus the closest ship to them regardless of situation, which makes it a little unrealistic. If there was a way to play it in multiplayer, it would be a lot better, but either way hit rates are far above what real life was.
I also played the scenario in that the Bismarck’s first salvo sunk Repulse, the Prince of Whales got broadsided by Bismarck in under a mile and the Hood got sunk in about 2 to 3 salvos.I Made a more detailed description on a separate comment
@@phoenixjz4782 per the manual you can do multiplayer in-
"Custom Battles
The first Single Mission is a scenario editor for setting up to 10 vs 10 ships in battle.
Here you may:
Adjust weather, time, ships on each side and number of land-based aircraft.
Select initiative (which navy acts first) and a navy to control.
Disable AI to allow multiplayer on the same device/hardware."
IMO it'd be a much better game without the arcade shooter element.
Prinze Eugene, after prince Eugene.
"that's a fight I would pay good money to see." - Drach.
That's the kind of statement that gets time travel invented
People confuse World of Warships with realism, don't fall into the trap ;)
World of Warships: Soviet ship is magically superior because Russia
CaptainDuckman LOL not at all buddy. "Muh russian bias"
@ both WoW and WT have been caught numerous times fudging numbers and giving Russian versions of other nations vehicles magical increases.
WT even fired a foreign fm dev back in like 2015 for exposing the extent of the bias.
Stop carrying water for insecure Russian devs.
remmebr the words of ADMIRAL ACKBAR.
@@IronWarhorsesFun *remember
I did the Atlantic fleet scenario
Whether you choice to read this or not is you choice, if you just want results they will be at the end (apologise for any spelling mistakes I cant spell very well)
Both fleets heading forward straight towards each other, plan of action for the british is for the battlecruiserd (repulse and hood) to target the the two scharenhorst class, and for the battleships (king george and prince of wales) to target the the two bismarks class, the germans do the exact same but to the british. Plan of action for the british Is for the battlecrusiers to reduce there range as they are only just in range to fire whilst the battleships fire a full broadside at the germans. The germans however all turn to fire a full broadside.
Repulse scores a lucky first hit when a shell slams downward into the c turret of scharenhorst causing a small explosion which starts a fire and also causes the c turret to be knocked out of action and also causing its ruder and propulsion to be severely damaged, causing her to head straight for the British fleet and to become a sitting duck for the time being.
Repulse on her second salvo somehow misses her target the scharenhorst and accidently hits the tirpitz c turret however no damage was caused
More hits from hood and repulse start to cause a severe list on the scharenhorst
Tirpitz causes a fire on king george
Guinessanau causes a fire on repulse
B turret on king george is briefly disabled by Bismarck
Guinesanu is forced to stop as it nearly collides with tirpitz during the battle
Tirpitz hits king george causing am explosion and a slight list
At this point in battle scharenhorst has still failed to get its ruder and propulsion back online and she is severely damaged, her fait shall soon arrive
King george causes a fire on tirpitz
Guinesanu hits a turret of repulse causing an explosion and knocking out the a turret, this is quickly followed by scharenhorst hitting repulse causing a much larger explosion on board which causes a severe list. Repulse and hood then turn to starboard so that they can both fire a full broadside. Until then only b turret on repulse is able to fire.
With tirpitz out of the way guinesanu starts to turn to fire a full broadside. After doing so he hits repulse severely which causes her to make an attempt at disengageing, her b turret is also disabled from this blow
King George's propulsion is damaged severely from tirpitz
Guinesanu hits repulse again causing a huge explosion causing even more of a list, this happens again a second time however she is still afloat.
Fires on board the tirpitz cause an explosion causing a sever list, however shortly after she fires a salvo at king george which causes an explosion which knocks out the a and b turret, with only 1 turret remaing she starts to fall back.
Hood hits scharenhorst b turret knocking it out, he cannot retreat as the ruuder and propulision is still damaged from the first hit from repulse. He is forced to stay and fight with 1 remaining turret
King george is severely hit from tirpitz, she is unable to disengaged due to the damaged to the propulsion caused earlier by tirpitz
Hood hits scharenhorst a turret knocking it out, with the rudder knocked out as well as her propulsion and no guns left to fight with she is nothing but a floating wreck and decides to scuttle, the first loss of the battle. With scharenhorst gone hood switches fire to guinesanu.
Repulse finally managed to escape the battle with severe damage, with repulse gone guinesanu switches fire to hood.
King George's Y turret is disabled by Bismarck briefly but not knocked out, so she remains in the fight, she also starts to pick up speed making a disengagement more likely.
King Georges y turret comes back online but another hit from the Bismarck further damages her propulsion
Hood hits guinesanu causing a large explosion to rock the ship.
Prince of Wales hits tirpitz b turret knocking it out and water begins to pour over on the port side of tirpitz. Any attempts of tirpitz disengageing are impossible as her propulsion is also severely damaged.
A hit from tirpitz causes an explosion on board king george which causes a list with water reaching up to turret y, king Georges rudder is also damaged by the shell, this would quickly come back online not long after
Guinesanu is forced to turn to starboard as she finds her self going head on too king george and prince of Wales. Doing so she switches fire to king george as he is no longer able to get a full broadside on hood, gunisanu is now left to with the task to finish what was left of king george whilst Bismarck and tirpitz begin to fire at prince of Wales, hood is no longer under fire for the time being.
Hood hits guinesanu causing a large explosion which caused a slight list
King george finally sinks to gunfire from gunisanu, gunisanu now switches back to firing at hood
An explosion on board prince of wales caused by tirpitz results in a port side list, another hit from bismarck results in severe damage on prince of Wales and she decides to disengage to prevent any further loss of British capital ships
Prince of wales b turret is knocked out by Bismarck, her propulsion is further damaged by tirpitz which makes it unlikely for her to disengage, she stays to fight and attempts to finish of the remains of tirpitz, however this plan is short lived as an explosion on board tirpitz caused by the fires on board causes it to capsize and sink. Prince of wales then switches fire to Bismarck.
Fires on board hood and Bismarck both cause an explosion roughly at the same time but hoods being more severe as it causes a list on the stern
Another explosion caused by fires occurres on bismarck being more effective as it causes a list to port
Prince of Wales y turret is knocked out by bismark, she is left only with a turret
Yet another explosion occurs on Bismarck which causes it to lean more to port with water now spilling onto the deck, another ocures moments later when bismarck is hit by prince of wales, followed by again, another explosion caused by fires with water now reaching Bismarck d turret
King george explodes due to fires with a slightly more list to port than before
Gunisanu is severely damaged, due to damage to the propulsion he is unable to disengaged
A turret on prince of wales Is briefly put out of action by Bismarck, a few moments later she is sunk by bismarck leaving only hood, gunisanu and bismarck left in the battle
Hood is only just in range of Bismarcks guns, hood turns to flee away so she is out of range of Bismarck whilst she can still fire at gunisanu to finish it off, however her damaged propulsion prevents this and bismarck is able to catch up
In an odd turn off luck for the hood the fires on board bismarck cause an explosion, this would be followed by a large magazine detonation onboard the Bismarck causing her to sink.
This luck would be short lived as the hood would surcome to the same fate as bismarck moments later. The battle had ended.
Battle results:
Britain:
2 battleships sunk
1 battlecrusier sunk
1 battlecrusier heavy damage
Germany:
3 battleships sunck
1 battleship heavy damage
Conclusion: draw
The Japanese invasion of Hawaii. One thing that Drach did not mention is that in the 1940's the Japanese army called the shots, the IJN did what it was told. An invasion of Hawaii was looked at as an alternate to the MIdway attack, and the Japanese army nixed it on the basis that they did not have the number of divisions required to invade and hold.
Actuall in 1939-41 the Scharnhorst were so overweight the max speed of both was effectively 30 knots!
Alternate history is _fun!_
Excellent video Drachinifel
All too many people rave about eh strengths of the Bismarck class yet ignore their weaknesses, yours is one of the few that point out the bad points of their armouring, especially the decks.
While the Scharnhorst class had thicker belt armour than Bismarck, their decks were only 50mm, making them VERY vulnerable to long range fire and as you pointed out, the main power and communication lines were above the deck armour, therefore any hits could cause massive problems.
Another point I have to bring up isn't a problem with the ships, but their ammunition. Few people comment on the very poor quality of heavy German naval shells in WW2.
German naval shells had a high rate of failure, many only partially detonating or failing to go off at all. This would significantly affect the battle but it's something no game would actually program in as the players wouldn't think it fair if they played the Germans.
Examination of PoW when to returned to harbour showed how little damage was caused by the poor quality of German ammunition. The most devastating hit was when a shell went through the bridge without exploding but killed most of the bridge crew.
I think they found a dud shell from Bismarck and carefully removed it.
Do you know where this picture of the super strong german BBs comes from? From most movies or war documentaries about these ships like "The Feared German battleship Bismarck - History Films
" or "Expedition Battleship Bismarck, James Cameron" . Who would be excited to watch it if they say: The british ships fought against weaker german battleships, which had plenty of design flaws, an outdated armor scheme and undependable shells. You could also say, that the allies wanted to make the germans really big badasses that they were able to defeat and the germans (like me at young age) believing this, to have at least sth positve that germany achieved at that time(high tech, good designes) until you get more information from neutral sources about it.
50 mm was only the upper weather deck, but there was another second armored deck which was 95 mm over the vital parts so it was actually 140 mm in total over the citadel, which isn't so bad, considering the KGV had 150 mm which was only 10 mm more than Scharnhorst... (the Bismarck had even 170-200 mm over the Magazine!)
American battleships at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941 should have a word with you about Bismarck's armor! Bismarck took 400 plus hits from battleship caliber shells alone, then add in 8 inch heavy cruiser shells, and destroyer shells AND a minimum of 8 torpedoes and the American battleships at Pearl Harbor would love to have Bismarck's armor instead ( ps - Tirpitz, Bismarck's brother ship took not one but THREE tallboys and still took 15 minutes to sink ! )
@@tommatt2ski You are showing you lack of understanding and pro German bias, The situation is totally different. The US ships at Pearl were at peace at not at action station ready for battle. Some even had water tight bulkheads open, ready for inspection that day.
Bismarck was at action station with all compartments sealed. And it did NOT take 400 heavy hits, That's pure German propaganda, what is really telling about her armour is how quickly she was silenced. As for the Torps, they were probably unnecessary but the RN wanted to make sure. And the US ships were hit by 16inch shells converted into bombs hitting their thinner deck armour.
As for Tirpitz, ONE hit was enough to doom her, but the Lancs were lined up for bombing runs and were notgoing to wait around to see if more were needed. Remember there were large fighter airfields close by and a bomber isn't going to wait around. The difficulty in destroying Tirpitz was more about defeating the massive shore based defences to get at ship cowering behind them. Of all the WW2 built ships, the Bismarck class were the worst, especially when yu take into account how they violated the Anglo-German naval treaty about displacement.
During D Day the German Snorkel Submarines had a few successes, U-984 damaged a Frigate and 4 Library Ship's in a Channel Convoy, the U-763 Attacked a Convoy, was Depth Charged for nearly 30 hours, got lost and checking the surface with it's periscope found it was surrounded on three sides by land and had numerous Ship's anchored near by, soon realizing they were in Spithead, the Great Naval Anchorage off Portsmouth, one of the most Heavily Defended Harbors in the World, sat silently on the bottom until night and slipped out in the wake of a Convoy and back to France, having used more than it's share of Luck and been damaged by the Depth Charging as well. These could run just as fast under water during the night as the Electro U-boats, when their Snorkels couldn't be seen and weren't swamped by Waves. There were just too many AntiSubmarine Ship's for even the Electro U-boats to get by the Massed sonars.
Could you please enlighten me as to what a Library Ship actually is?
@@Brecconable I think he means Liberty ships. A library ship is a charitable organization vessel that offers reading material on loan or for sale at ports of call.
Something for your next Alternative History. I have a scenarios with regards Midway and Hawaii.
Firstly Attack Pearl Harbour as before, this time making sure they destroy the fuel storage tanks. Then fall back on Midway to support the invasion forces. The advantage of this is that the US Navy is going to have to sort out its ships before it can intervene and without fuel it is not going to be able to go very far. You could put a submarine screen between Midway and Hawaii to act as an early warning for the carriers ind any ships trying to intervene.
Then after the Japanese take Midway it can then be used it as a jumping off point for Hawaii. This would have put Hawaii in range for an invasion fleet and with many US Navy ships out of commission or possibly having to pull back to the mainland there would be less opposition. Japanese submarines positioned to the east of Hawaii could deal with any warship coming or going with a priority in sinking tankers.
Then the third stage would be the invasion of Hawaii.
The advantage with this scenario is you will not need to split your forces as at the Battle of Midway. Yes it will be in two parts initially but the attack on Midway will involve all of the forces as no diversion would be needed.
Done quickly enough there would be little time for the US forces to recover from the attack on Pearl Harbour. Though it would be a major commitment from Japanese forces it would prove much harder for America to be the threat it became to Japan.
Only one problem: this scenario is based entirely on hindsight. We know now that the American carriers were nowhere near Pearl Harbor, but Nagumo didn't. His decision to not launch the third wave was based partially off of the fact that he didn't know where the American carriers were. In his mind, they could be steaming into attack range at any moment. Very often, a battle is not decided by what is known, but by what is not known.
In addition to the previous comment.
The force sent to Pearl Harbor was massive.
The vessels involved, particularly the Kido Butai, were needed for other operations soon.
Plus if you're attacking Midway you need a fleet of transports.
In late 1941 simply put there were targets of a MUCH higher priority than Midway.
The transports for that operation would slow the advance in the Dutch East Indies and you can bet that the IJA would damn sure not go along with that plan. Plus if you stick around for THAT long the US carriers in the area actually have something to strike at.
Now, the Kido Butai would likely be able to deal with them, but I think it's pretty obvious that it would be the US carriers who would get the first strike in, since they would be the ones chasing.
All things considered, the scenario is unrealistic in its totality
And most of all the IJN did not have the oil for that kind of attack.
The idea of the Kaiserlichemarine sticking around is pretty interesting, a bunch of Mackensens, Ersatz Yorcks and triple-gun-turret Bayern's floating around would be pretty cool from a historian's standpoint
Hey Drachinifel, love the video as always. I simulated KGV, Prince of Wales, Hood and Repulse vs Bismark, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisnau and Prinz Eugen in Altantic Fleet as you suggested. Ended with all German units sunk. The British units lost KGV and Repulse with Hood taking medium damage and Prince of Wales taking light damage.
Was that with the more accurate enemy fire enabled?
I'm not sure that exactly to make of Atlantic fleet's historical accuracy though, they list the Bismarck's belt armour as something like 17", rather than the 12.6" it was in real life.
@ the navweaps.com tends to have pretty good armour penetration tables.
My biggest problem with the engagement model is that because its turn-based, a 16" gun will fire at the same rate as a 6" one.
Im not sure how they could fix that in a turn-based game, but perhaps each turn a 6" gun cruiser could fire 4 volleys (an 8" one, 3...etc.).
@@sergarlantyrell7847 Yeah, as I said it isn't flawless for simulating wars but for one on one ship battle 16" vs 6" it likely doesn't matter how often a 6" would fire there's very little that a 6" gun could do to the sort of ship that carries 16" guns, I'm looking at you WOWS...
Navweaps do the best they can, they have all the table data that testing allowed for in one place and this is likely where everyone gets their data from Atlantic Fleet did I think as did Rule The Waves. But in the cases where they don't have testing data they just rely on anecdotal and approximated information. "Two shells from this gun probably struck this armour and didn't penetrate" which is a problem as I'm sure you know, small sample size, could've been duds, could've been more angled, might not have even been those shells, etc, etc.
Navweaps is probably our best bet for the time being, until some mystery billionaire wants to pay to reconstruct from scratch all these guns and shells and then test them against all the thicknesses and angling and ranges...hmmm
@ I'm not suggesting that cruisers take on a battleship by themselves.
Say for example in the battle of the Denmark strait, if the heavy cruisers, Norfolk and Suffolk had been close enough to take part, their much faster firing 8" guns, would be able to knock out Bismarck's rangefinders and spotting equipment, setting fires around the superstructure and secondary batteries and giving the bridge crew a significant emotional event with all the explosions going on around them.
@ or they could take out Prince Eugen, maybe force Bismark to split it's fire giving Hood and Prince of Wales a better chance of dealing some hard damage to Bismarck. It's an interesting scenario but I wouldn't say a pair of 8" gunned heavy cruisers would be useless in this scenario but any stretch
What would be the evolution of the Imperial German Navy if they managed to continue existing after WW1 (if you have to split it into DD, CL, CA, BB, CV, etc. portions)? I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
The Bismark scenarios ignore the most important question, does Johnny Horton still write a song about it?
Johnny Horton was killed in a car crash not long after his songs were being played on radio. His sings were consider4ed to be just stories to music not history
I really wish Nelson had the torp tubes in WoWS. I wanted to shoot Nelson torpedoes at Bismarcks XD.
Wonder now, how would the fictive battle between Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau go against british forces, not only if the Germans had their full strength of modern battleships ready, but also having Scharnhorst and Gneisenau being armed with 15" guns, they were initially supposed to have, making them essentially much stronger armored, more modern armed versions of the Renown class, and having guns, that could dish out much more damage to the british adviseries. I believe, british will ultimatly win, because the battle takes long enough, to have the slower british battleships arriving, or the 8 ships hammer each other, and after some time will disengange with all ships damaged to some degree.
The probably worst cards would have Tirpitz and Prince of Wales, while strong ships, they are very new, and have a very inexperienced crew (which was contributing to the losses of ships like Blücher in WW2 or SMS Lützow, while Seydlitz with an experienced crew was ultimatly saved).
Hey, Drachinifel, love the channel and it’s great to see someone else out there loves naval history as much as I do. I have a humorous question that I asked a Canadian friend of mine and I’d like to see how you would respond to it. If Canada had ever built a battleship, what do you think it would have been called, and in what role do you think they would have tailored the vessel for? I know it’s all purely speculation, but let’s just assume that the Canadian government had the time and resources for building it. I’ll let you decide on the specific time period. Enjoy!😉
Well, they very nearly did fund three additional members of the Queen Elizabeth class, but the bill to do so was defeated in the Canadian parliament.
Here's "what if" on the Bismarck. Norfolk & Suffolk don't lose contact so Holland gets to engage the way he planned to, and with his destroyers not having had
to break away to refuel .......
Q&A are you going to a special on alternate leyte gulf scenarios? like task force 34 staying behind, halsey staying with his entire fleet, japanese Centerforce forming a battle line etc?
I would’ve brought out Rodney, Nelson and Ramillies (and any other R-class battleships available) and made a 2nd group of ships that could be used as a second element in the operational context.
Basically use them as a chess piece whose existence and location can be a threat, ironically, much like the Bismarcks and Scharnhorsts were meant to be.
As a citizen and history buff living in hawaii, we had a bunch of coastal defenses here for threat of invasion, the army museum in waikiki was known as Fort derussy/Battery Randolph had a 14 inch naval gun (essentially a battleship gun) to repel invading ships
27:00 - 28:35 with the Hood being my favourite ships this was sadly joyful.
Just saying Rule Britannia was playing in my head while hearing the idea of the Hood sinking the Bismarck
Q&A How would a modernized Mackensen or Ersatz Yorck fair against HMS Hood in 1941?
I wonder how HMS Hood would have done had she recieved her long overdue overhaul/refit with all of the upgrades she was due to recieve. The trouble with Hood is that they kept delaying the time she would spend in the dockyard because .....?
Hey thanks for answering my Alaska vs Scharnhorst question. Great video as usual. But another question for ya, let’s redo the initial Bismark battle, but instead of Hood and Price of Whales, you have the Alabama and maybe Repulse or Renown going up against the Tirpitz and Prinz Eugen. Or even more interestingly, Tirpitz and Bismark coming up against the Bama and SoDak which were at one point in England for the Tirpitz. Thanks and keep up the good work
Regarding the Alaska vs Scharnhorst question, I feel like the firepower disparity is really pronounced. Those 12" guns on the Alaska's were so incredibly powerful and the Scharnhorst is obliged to get within 20 km to actually hurt the Alaska with any reliability as a result of throwing shells that are under 750lbs. Plunging fire won't do it for the Scharnhorst at that range either, it needs to smack that belt. Meanwhile those 12 inch guns can really damage the Scharnhorst from beyond 20 km, firing a shell that is 400lbs heavier from a superior range.
Nice job of adding some realistic, but fantisfal thoughts to the "what if" world. So many historical outcomes, could have changed our world. Thank you for exploring them. Keep it up. big fan. If I get a bit ahead in life, I'll support you. Sorry but I'm just a poor watcher for now.
remember the soviets in ww2 didn't have much large shipbuilding or user experience. so most of their designs had little practical data to back up the blueprints.
one of the German H class super-battleship vs one of the Tillman classes of battleships
I have a good one: What if the American Military Intelligence had NOT cracked the Japanese coms codes leading into Midway?
Japan would have taken Midway, no question. The U.S. would certainly have had to respond, but given that Halsey was laid up in the hospital, I doubt they would have recklessly thrown the fleet at Midway (which is precisely what Yamamoto would have wanted). I don't know the technicalities of Japan's fuel availability or consumption rates, but I feel fairly safe in saying that the Japanese would have been hard pressed to keep their fleet in the Midway area for too long; they would have eventually had to slip home for supplies. Add to that the predictable U.S. submarine campaign which would have been launched immediately, and the Japanese presence in the area becomes even more problematic. I haven't read anything which has discussed Yamamoto's military plans after a victory at Midway, but I don't see an invasion of Hawaii being realistic (it might have been dreamed about, but I doubt it was do-able). The plan had always been to beat the American Fleet, and then negotiate an end to the hostilities.
All of that being said, even if Japan had inflicted a major loss on the U.S. at Midway, I still don't think the U.S. would have capitulated. The most it would have done is lengthen the war in the Pacific, and forced the U.S. to make the European theatre less of a priority than it was (at least for a while).
My 2 cents!
@@rpryce2140 - I'm not so sure about that "no question". Watch - ruclips.net/video/YZZHejsF0ao/видео.html
Another alternate history questions - what if Hood had actually targeted Bismarck rather than mistakenly targeting the Prince Eugen?
To make it even more interesting, add a couple of the "pocket battleships" and Admiral Hipper. That'd be a heck of a slug fest!
A German fleet that size could not sneak out of the Baltic. Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were not able to to do it without being seen.
Now that was a cunning plan! It never fails to amaze me how effective diversions can be when carried out well. That being the proviso.
Have watched quite a few Drach vids lately - they are really good. My area of interest has generally been the European land war. Obviously the great battles on the Eastern Front mostly - its such an epic struggle
I wonder if the HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales, with HMS Prince of Wales leading, if the battle might have had a different outcome. She would have drawn the fire first allowing them to get into range and turn broadside. In effect HMS Prince of Wales could have "screened" HMS Hood from some of the Plunging fire. Initially HMS Prince of Wales could have called the fall of shot for Hood until they completed the turn.
Totally agree with this. Also what if the British cruisers has engaged Prince Eugen.
In this fight I would place my money on the German ships. HMS Hood and Repulse were heavily armed and weakly armored battle cruisers. Most people point out the most glaring weakness on these ships were a weak deck armor, but the same could be said for the hull armor as well. If the Bismarck and the Tirpitz prioritized on the two battle cruisers there is a high chance of both of them being destroyed early on. People do not give enough credit for the rate of fire on the 11inch guns on Sharnhorst and Gniesenau. While true they would struggle to do significant damage to the King George and Queen Elizabeth's hull they could render them near combat ineffective.
@@gloccry2184 1. Repulse was not engaged in the Battle of Denmark Strait - Hood and PoW were. 2. Tirpitz was not engaged in the Battle of Denmark Strait - Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were. 3. There were no 11" guns involved on either side during the Battle of Denmark Strait. 4. Hood's side armour was comparable to that of Bismarck.
I am interested to know your sources for saying that British armour was inferior to that of German or any other country - it is a well recognised fact that British armour was outstanding.
Scharnhorst's 11" guns did little against Duke of York and the Graf Spee could not even sink an 8" heavy cruiser or 6" light cruisers at River Plate. Why are you rating the 11" gun so highly?
@@nnoddy8161 He's refering to the alternate battle with Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau [with Prinz Eugen] against KGV, POW, Hood, Repulse and some Brit heavy cruisers.
Q & A: USS Washington vs the Tirpitz. In July 1942, the Tirpitz was ordered to intercept arctic convoy PQ-17 and the Washington; and some escorts, were relatively close by. (I think they were described as a covering force, though as far as I can see they weren't close enough to really cover anything.) The convoy was ordered to scatter, the Tirpitz never came out to play and the scattered convoy was slaughtered by U-boats and the Luftwaffe.
Now I know the Washington had at least two cruisers with her, plus some destroyers, and I believe the Hipper and perhaps a few destroyers were supposed to accompany the Tirpitz. You can either analyze the probable task force vs task force engagement or concentrate on battleship vs battleship or perhaps look at both.
I enjoyed it very much, thank you!
Got an idea as to how the Japanese to Tan Go the Hawaiian islands, they’d likely send in lesser warships, older more expendable warships along with both a small force of their elit marines and a larger force of decent troops, once the air attacks are done the main fleet can leave while the older ships stay behind to provide the Japanese troops with fire support once that’s done, the small elites are evacuated on the ships with fuel. The others told to hold
Bismarck design was based on Bayern class BB of ww1 since Germany didn't have the technology to get an updated ship
That was great. I like your analysis (and humour, when you occasionally do so). I'm new to your channel, the factual stuff is great - this speculative stuff was interesting. I'm sort of rambling, so I'll comment on other vids later. Thanks.
So Bismarck got really lucky in it's fight with the Hood.
The easiest What if might be: "What if that rudder killing torpedo had missed the Bismarck?"
Along with that we might ponder what would have occurred if KMS Bismarck had been able to take on her full load of fuel at the start. That Oil Processing system was a factor in KMS Graf Spee's fate, too, though in result of other factors.
After that, however, it all sort of falls apart. For Bismarck to achieve her brief (the guerre du course) she needed to reach her first operational area undetected. Part of the plan was to draw reaction into the wake of her sortie, to stay one move ahead. She was meant to follow the shipping lanes, finding convoys by code--breaking (back home) and patrolling, heading from operational area to operational area. Once she was "made" (detected) she was already trapped, being too close to coast to break through into the Atlantic.
The one chance, now that her cover was blown, was for Bismarck to run for the French coast. And that single torpedo ended that hope.
Even had she made it into the Atlantic with Tirpitz and the two Battlecruisers (yeah, yeah, I know-they're battleships with teeny little peckers), she could only survive one fight . . . before needing replenishment and refueling. And the Eleven Allied Battleships arrayed against her would've been in her way. Bismarck needed sisters, large and small, and really foul weather. And improved Seetakt.
Consider this idea: if Bismarck and her mates could draw off the whole of the capital ship roster into the south Atlantic, she would remove them from the map of Europe for at least a week and a half. If Hitler had launched Seelowe, while the Home fleet was gallivanting around elsewhere in a search for national prestige . . . but, of course, he was not ready.
Kampfgruppe Bismarck and the three Panzerschiffe were supposed to be in their operational areas when the war began. That would start the stern chase to bring them to "justice". That would draw off the Home fleet and pretty much everything else in a hunt for the raiders (The cost of that effort was incredible in the event). The warships would romp through the Atlantic, spreading havoc, splitting up to head for friendly bases in far away Nihon for scraping and a bit of topping off (in return for technical plans and schematics). And all of those allied pursuers would be low on fuel and worn out, too, needing refit and rotation of their crews. As they fell back on Home ports, Hitler's cunning plan would be revealed: his ten merchant raiders, already in position (and innocent as sleeping lions) would then begin their murderous cosplay along the "lone wolf" lanes.
Why this and not something better--say, Grosserkampf Ost--suited for a racial Gotterdfamurung? I have the secret.
If Hitler could cause maritime insurance premiums to rise high enough, his enemies would wither on the vine from lack of sea trade. Loyd's had come to a similar crisis in the Great War. The USA was interventionist only as long as her factories were exporting overseas. If the great manufacturies had lost money, they would have lobbied against further involvement in a "European War".
And, his other great geopolitical delusion was that he could "handle" France and Great Britain, while kicking in Soviet "Russia's" so-called rotten door. The only way I see he could've dealt with the strategic problems at his doorstep (widescale unemployment, runaway inflation, and national disunity in perilous times), was to charm France, CzechoSlovakia, and Italia, into joining a unified crusade against his greatest peeve . . . cigarette smokers . . . wait! I mean Jewish-Bolshevism. With the fleets of Italy and France in step with his policies of economic . . . er . . . rationalization, the Mediterranean would've been an Axis bathtub and all African Oil would be his.
Except: "I dunno, Yogi. Mister Poland's not gonna like this!"
But it would cover hairy Hitler's strategic arse.
yes, Drachinifell you may ask me stuff, if needed :)
You mean like "Where is Task Force 34?"
@@MakeMeThinkAgain The world wonders.
Remember when 40 minutes was considered a short video?
Q&A How would the Tennessees hold up against the Queen Elizabeths in a battle should the "war between the US and Britain" ever have started? Also how would the post WW1 Royal navy vs US Navy have turned out?
If this takes just after [say 1 to 3 years] WW1 the Royal navy would easily have the numbers in warships. Don't forget the Royal Navy would have much more battle experienced crews and many lessons would have been learned from WW1. The US fleet though powerful would not have the experience to fight as effectively as the brits. A Jutland 2 in the Atlantic would easily favour the Royal Navy. The sheer numbers of capital ships would overwhelm them. Also the brits have a large fast battlecruiser squadron [which the US don't have] which would scout ahead and easily deal with the US scout cruisers of the time. With no Washington treaty then the US builds the powerful South Dakota class along with the Lexington class battlecruisers. However these won't be available just yet and the Brits will probably build the 4 fast Hood class battlecruisers [with mods learned from WW1] along with the mighty G3 class. Though financially broke Britain would always find the money to build new ships and don't forget the US would end up fighting the entire British commonwealth [Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India etc]. I'm not saying the US ships won't hurt the Royal Navy [they would] but overall it's difficult to see them coming out on top. At best I see a stalemate
@@fyorbane Dont underestimate the US wartime industry, the UK cant keep up with the naval shipyards of the US
@@coreygibson15 Are you saying that the US would fight a war of attrition with Britain which is the only situation where the industrial base would come into play? If Vietnam is considered an unpopular war...
@@arpitakodagu9854 No, I'm saying in an all out war, the US has the infrastructure and the manpower to beat out the UK in the long game. All you need to do is look at the wartime industry of WW1 and WW2. As the US built up it's navy, the UK wouldn't have the resources on the brittish isles to keep up, they would rely heavily on imports, which would be harder on them as the war progressed. the US however, doesnt need to rely on imports as much. UK would have to end the war very quickly to win.
Corey Gibson While the British Empire may not be able to match the US industrial base at this time, remember that the British are starting with a huge lead in numbers alone, and they do have significant shipbuilding industry of their own, remember that they built multiple new capital ships per year in the lead up to WW1, and that industrial base hasn’t gone anywhere. Yes, the US could likely overtake the British in the long term, but you would be talking a matter of years to do so, giving the RN all the time they need to steamroll the USN of the early 1920s, and ensure a victory at sea.
Bismarck making it to a port in France would have led to Mers-El-Kebir Part 2: This Time with More Taranto. In that situation, you have pretty much the entire combined force of German capital ships all cooped up in various French ports. Removing Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Bismarck from the equation all in one fell swoop is a strategic move too good to pass up on. You could expect to see every available carrier called up for the attack, and the RAF would probably have learned to use mass aircraft tactics far earlier than they actually did since such a huge and ambitious attack would necessitate a large-scale fighter and bomber sweep.
Or you know just move up the date of the whole "let's crash DDs filled with explosives into French ports" deal.
Great Video, with great analysis.
Played Denmark Strait on Fighting Steel win95, nasty both ways but even got a magazine hit on Bismarck. Got a whole lot worse when I started combining multiple squadrons against each other like you suggested.
About that "Graff Zeppelin" question ... first of all, that would mean that trailing by Norfolk and Suffolk would end far sooner.
An interesting scenario to look would be the Graf Spree tries to break out instead of being scuttled.
As for KMS Graf Zeppelin, I always wondered how Bf109s would have performed as carrier aircraft.
There is a great book called Duels in the Sky by Captain Eric M.Brown. RN that covers this is a small way.
Captain Brown was a RN fighter pilot and test pilot during WW2 and holds the world record for the most different types of aircraft flown.
His assessment is that despite the changes to the bf109T it would have been a difficult aircraft to land on a carrier due to poor view and a tendency to drop a wing.
The bf109 also shares the same weaknesses of the Spitfire when converted to naval use. Weak landing gear which caused many accidents as well as a short range.
John Fisher : Yeah, thanks. I know that planes designed for land use don't necessarily do well on carriers. I thought about the view from the 109, perhaps a FW190 would actually been better. Even some planes made for carrier use were not real good, like the F4U. A great plane, but it took a special pilot for carrier use.
+@@johnfisher9692 Thanks for the book citation and Captain Brown's views. Had not heard of the book. I'd have thought the 109 a difficult choice for carrier duty due to its narrow wheel track, something fliers found tricky enough on land, never mind a heaving deck.
fw190 view over nose was prob as bad though its landing structure was much better
I love how he sounds like he was like gotta down this bottle of jack before I get to the Bismarck
What if Yamato had perfect construction, namely
1. All 25mm triple mounts replaced by twin Bofors, or quad Bofors if possible
2. All 127mm dual mounts replaced by the twin 5”/54
3. The two triple 155mm replaces by triple 6”/47 Mk 16
4. Fire control replaced by American counterparts
5. Torpedo belt actually built to design, with perfect welding
(I look at Yamato as a perfect design that was hindered by garbage construction and the lack of suitable flak, that basically fixes it)
Would it survive Ten-Go?
There's one way I see Scharnhorst and Gneisenau lasting a while in this scenario, repulse and hood both have fairly outdated fire control where they may have trouble finding the range and getting hits.
If hood and repulse are killing nothing but fish repulse is poorly enough armoured to be at risk if Scharnhorst or Gneisenau found the range first (opposite of renown which had modernized fire control)
Brilliant.
Vanguard vs Iowa (1946) configurations.
I'd say Iowa has the edge, more and bigger guns.
@@coreygibson15 Vanguard had better, heavier armour, massive redundancy in her fire control systems and her 15 inch guns were very, very effective and very well proven, as proved by Warspite, Queen Elizabeth and all the other 15 inch battleships and battle cruisers. She was also a better sea boat. Iowas were marginally faster but in practical terms this would probably not have counted for much. Vanguard also used the same fire control systems as the Iowas...
Or the uss Tillman vs yamato
On the idea that Bismark made it back to France. I think your idea holds as long as the Hood survived. But with the sinking of the Hood the British wanted blood. I think they would have bombed it like Berlin. With 4 of the biggest German ships in one port it would have been worth it to dedicate the resources to ensure their destruction. Then you add the PR/morale/pure rage effects from Hood and you got a recipe for everything being thrown at that port.
Wargamed that super-Denmark Straight in Atlantic Fleet, and a few semi-reasonable follow up battles.
Played with enemy could disengage, wind for all shells, AI controling Royal Navy, but no enemy elite gunnery (all ships were at 0% crew XP in all engagements).
I can not certify that this is plausible, merely at least very distantly possible under the distant hypothetical.
Battle of Denmark Straight with Hood, Repulse, PoW, & KGV engaged the 4 BBs and Prinz Eugen which was a decisive German victory because of initial high quality gunnery. Gneisenau and Scharnhorst engaged Repulse, Biz on Hood, Tirp on PoW. Formations close head-on, and split to port to form battle-blob formation. Within about 3 minutes PoW's A turret is detonated by Tirpitz at around 16 kilometers, and Repulse's turrets have begun missing salvos. Scharnhorst, leading the German formation, is torn up heavily by the modern British battleships already. Within about another 3 minutes the remaining british ships are forced to flee with medium to heavy damage.
I decided that the German squadron would give chase, and close to sink all 3 with their superior speed, but it could reasonably be argued the Germans would instead break to the Atlantic.
Sharnhorst and Prinz Eugen are forced to abort their mission, as Sharn will require repairs in Germany and Prinz Eugen is moderately damaged.
2 fleet CVs with Rodney and Nelson were given about 10 rounds to attack the 3 remaining BBs before they were considered to have hit air cover from France. Again a few torpedo hits were able to begin harming Bismark with impunity, especially because only DDs can actually dodge aerial torpedoes in Atlantic fleet, but the torpedo defense system allowed her to remain at 28 knots after 10 rounds. There are factors going both ways: the air strikes would have been hitting less often, with much lower sortie rates than Atlantic Fleet allows, while this British Carrier force would have been able to attempt interception for a much greater length of time.
Convoy Attack against Old Rs!
Bismark, Tirpitz, and Gneissenau were able to form a neat battle line at 30 knots as they came in to range of a British convoy with Revenge, Resolution, and Ramilies. The Rs were spead out across the convoy, and took time to assemble. This was only *partially* offset by the scenario starting the Germans at 15 km to Revenge, well inside the range they would have desired to begin fighting.
This was a slaughter.
The fast german line used its speed and glorious efficiency to keep out of the limited elevation of the other Rs, allowing them to fight a 2-v-1 battle of Bismark and Tirpitz against Revenge, then against Resolution, then against Ramilies. Gneissenau was also there if you want to keep track, but was minimally effective. The 15" guns were able to deal heavy damage, and eventually the Rs' ammo would cook off once their turrets had been extensively pounded.
They were able to hit Bismark with heavy shells that damaged her propulsion and dropped her speed to 22.4 knots. Her captain insists these hits were also responsible for disabling her fire control, but Tirpitz's Captain is adamant that Bismark did that herself.
The damage to Bismark, and the time required for this strategy allowed the entire convoy to run and disperse, and the Germans couldn't risk remaining in the area.
A super optimistic, near ideal, outcome of the game systems and there were still enough British capital ships to force the squadron running home after sinking/extremely damaging 7 of them.
Royal Navy O.P. please nerf.
With the Alaska class coming in up in WoW, players can test the idea out.
Thank you for this information Captain Obvious.
@@maddox0110 but the funny thing is that in the game she is as tough as scharnhorst. thanks to her non-existent citadel. despite the fact that her armor was designed to withstand only 203mm shells she can brawl with battleships there. facepalm. stupid yanks were screaming "i want my us scharnhorst" and there you have it.
Excellent show
I know you said no recent or controversial, but what if the Argentinians had sailed out to meet the British fleet at the Falklands.
they would been sunk by sub
@@daniellastuart3145 in the end yes, but would they have been able to damage the British fleet enough to postpone or cancel an invasion. Forcing all parties to the negotiating table and giving the Argentinians a few chips in those negotiations.
That depends on when ships were sunk, let say the Argentinian aircraft carrier was sunk early in the battle before shecould did any real damage to the RN task force. And G B is sunk as it was i think war over early with an Argentinean surrender
If the wind had been blowing steadily on May 1, 1982, as it normally does in the South Atlantic, the Argentine aircraft carrier Veinticinco de Mayo (former HMS Venerable) might have launched a decent attack against their Royal Navy counterparts. Supposedly a Gruman S-2 tracker from the Veinticinco de Mayo located the Royal Navy's carrier task-force. The Argentine vessel didn't have catapults or a ski-jump ramp, it relied on wind aided takeoffs to launch its A4 Skyhawks, maybe twenty of them. The carrier had engine trouble and couldn't get up to full speed, so she was able to launch the Gruman tracker which is a prop plane, but not her Skyhawks. If she had been able to launch it would have been the first aircraft carrier vs. aircraft carrier action since 1944.
When she got back to port her A-4 Skyhawks were offloaded and flew from land bases. Argentine pilots were well trained, and they gave a very good account of themselves, sinking several vessels.
I say supposedly a Gruman S-2 tracker spotted the Royal Navy's carriers, because that sounds to me an awful lot like Mitsuo Fuchida's false claim that the four Japanese aircraft carriers at the Battle of Midway were turning into the wind to launch their strike at the American carriers when U.S. Dauntless dive bombers suddenly rained destruction down on them, when in reality they were a good forty-five minutes from being able to launch anything at the Americans. It has been speculated the Veinticinco de Mayo turned back to port because of the the very real threat from Royal Navy attack submarines. So both stories could have been a way to save face, after the fact. "We would have hit them really hard, if only..." Whatever the truth of the situation was, it's still an interesting might have been
"IF" is a vrey big word when come to military history
Regardless of damage, I expect Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would be forced to retire in short order. The two of them had been unwilling to face just Renoun. With them retiring, Hood could keep after them while Renoun joins the KG5 and PoW. Enough to tip the scales.
As for Hood question, all they had to do was harass Bismark and wait for help. Nobody wants an even fight.
VERY interesting documentaries and relevant commentaries.
Have TWO questions that have been buzzing around for a long time:
1) The Royal Navy were pioneers in naval aviation, building some efficient carriers, BUT, why were the aircraft of such sub-standard/obsolete quality?
2) The Royal Navy had MORE submarines than the Germans at the start of WW2, why were they so relatively anonymous (considering the numbers) throughout the war?
1. The RAF restricted the Fleet Air Arm aircraft to second rate types until the outbreak of war. It was a doctrinal decision...
2. The Germans were significantly less reliant on their merchant marine than the UK. The U-boat arm was key to German efforts to cripple the UK where the RN was escorting convoys and blockading Germany much as they did in WW1.
Very interesting points of view. Brought to mind a question for the Dry-dock. . Why was the Royal Navy so short of destroyers at the start of WWII. What if they had more destroyers would the British battleships put to sea and protected everyone during the evacuation from Norway?
It takes years to build the large capital ships. It takes months to build destroyers, or at least it did during WWII. It seemed to make more sense to build the large vessels slowly during peacetime and then build smaller vessels quickly during wartime.
That was the mentality of the "battleship admirals". When it became clear that submarines were a greater threat than surface ships, then the British were caught with the wrong 'force structure', as it became a war of attrition rather than a war of fleet engagements.
as the Japanese pilots often followed the Bushido code it could have led to a large amount of pilot losses if shokaku and/or zuikaku had gone down, Lexington's loss could have been prevented if more attention was paid to the co2 levels in the fuel tank storage, the carrier Taiho would suffer the same fate late in the war.
Scharnhorst is a battleship, it has battleship armour, and ww1 size battleship guns, remember these where supposed to be upgraded to 14 (356 mm) or 15 (380 mm) inch guns, any "large cruiser" or "battlecruiser" is no real match for the Scharnhorst, Duke of York had several cruisers and destroyers spotting and firing at Scharnhorst, and a lucky hit dramatically reduced Scharnhorst's speed and a 2nd one her gun director.
Graf Zeppelin with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen...no issue, as the germans never had long range destroyers to escort the Carrier, the few available cruisers where also not really long range and fuel would quickly become an issue.
I have an alternative history question. Let's say that FDR, upon learning the the Graf Spee captured the City of Flint, imprisoned her crew and took the merchantman as a prize, declared the Graf Spee a pirate and ordered the U.S. Navy to hunt her down and sink her. Match up the USS Houston and two Brooklyn class light cruisers against the Graf Spee off Montevideo. As to the possibility of the Japanese invading Hawaii during the Pearl Harbor operation, its nonexistent. The Japanese Army would have refused to provide the troops and the Navy command would have refused because the bulk of Army and Navy assets were committed to Southwest Asia. Japan had gone to war to seize the resources of the area. Any other endeavor was secondary. I really enjoy your videos, partly because of you film footage and pictures, but altos because of you reasoned approach (also your humor).
Great channel. Here's my Alternate History question. If the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but had struck the US forces in the Philippines and SE Asia instead, and then waited for the US Pacific Fleet to relieve the Philippines (a scenario which was in the pre-war plans of both navies), who would have won that encounter? This would mean pretty much the entire battle line and all available carriers of both fleets facing off.
the last scenario would be basically battle of Jutland 2.0
Boy you have to do a timeline with that last match up, as with the Battle of Texel, please in the name of Neptune!
3:43 The most decisive reason why the Type XXI boats were not effective was the manpower needs of the Wehrmacht, followed by fuel shortages. To "counterfactual" this class into a large and effective flotilla means coming up with a scenario in which the Third Reich doesn't need to cannibalize the Kriegsmarine for warm bodies and has enough fuel to keep the panzers moving and simultaneously train u-boat crews in the Baltic.
In the end, an internally consistent scenario with significant numbers of Type XXI boats at sea delays the end of the war just long enough to see Berlin nuked instead of Hiroshima.
Great video the only thing I seen that might have been left out about the Japanese invasion of Hawaii was the carriers coming into play
what if the Japanese had enough fuel and the willingness to deploy her entire battleship fleet for the Guadalcanal campaign
rly nis would’ve been a fucking bloodbath. But historically there’s almost no way. The us didn’t deploy their old battleships because of fuel issues
then the Guadalcanal campaign would have been a loss, but most of the us navy would have been able to escape, the fleet speed of Fuso and Yamashiro is only 23 knots, Ise and Hyuga can do 25, yamato + musashi 28, and only the 4 kongo's would be faster, however these 4 are battlecruisers with 9 inch belts, the 2 North Carolina's and 4 South dakota's could have made a mess of them .. even if it was 4 kongo's versus 3 nocal/indiana's.
but the us navy has a fleet speed of over 28 knots, and still had a fair share of destroyers with good guns (and bad torpedoes)and the dauntless dive bombers where a menace to the IJN... look at midway.
Task Force 38 Yamato and Musashi could have done a lot of Damage at Night, but would have to have gotten out of the range of the Dauntless divebombers before daylight, the Dauntless was a very good Divebomber, able to fly almost straight down in a dive with excellent Control, at that time of the war, both Ship's Anti-aircraft defense was far less than later in the war, and Against Radar equipped Destroyers and Heavy Crusiers at Night, they could have been in trouble, in one Night Battle a Japanese Battleship was engaged by Destroyers so close it couldn't lower it's Gun's enough to hit them, at that close of range, even the 5" gun's of the American Destroyers could do a lot of Damage, the Japanese Battleship limped off but had to be scuttled the next day. The Two Super Battleships of Japan would have attracted the Carrier's as a Priority Target, they would have been most effective at the beginning after the American Aircraft Carriers were pulled back, before Halsey was put in charge, if they had come in with the Cruisers at the Battle of Savo Island, they could have destroyed the Landing Ship's before most of the Supplies were unloaded and maybe caused the Marines Beachhead to fail. It's a Interesting Question.
What if? What if the US had more tankers and felt they could deploy the old battleships forward for the Guadalcanal campaign? What if North Carolina hadn't eaten a torpedo from I19? What if Capt. Gatch hadn't run SoDak aground? Or been wounded? This is the problem with "what if." I had a history prof that would go absolutely ballistic if he heard "what if." The correct question was "why". Why did it happen like it did? Why didn't the Japanese seriously commit to neutralizing Henderson Field and reinforcing Guadalcanal? There are reasons. Not very good ones in retrospect, but they did what they did for reasons that seemed good to them at the time.
here's another what if issue, that was from what I could find is this. "What if the Japanese sent another wave of fighters to pearl harbor immediately after the first attack" like what the admiral wanted to do in the first place
Q&A. What if Hood had had her major refit before her engagement with Bismarck, would she have faired any better?
Why didn't the Royal Navy Heavy Cruisers, Suffolk & Norfolk, who were already on scene not join in the battle along side Hood and Duke of York?
They tried, but we're out of range of their guns and since all the capital ships were running at flank speed, they couldn't close the range quickly enough to take part.
@@Drachinifel Out of curiosity, did you ever get your game group together to play out the KGV/POW/Hood/Repulse vs. Bismark/Tirpitz/Scharnhorst/Gneisenau battle?
Bismarck's final battle is never an argument, because this was a clay pigeons schooting. The evaluate a battleship, which is not to steer and crawling with 7 knots, means an evaluation of an already sunk ship.
Really liked the video
There was a documentary or book I read somewhere that said the Germans had made the turrets on the Scharnhorst Class upgrade-able to 14 inch guns, two per turret.
Iowa vs Nelson: with Iowa's superior fire control it will destroy the Nelson at will.
14:30 isn't funny per-say, but at the same time. The mental image of a carrier commander standing on deck looking for all his aircraft in the fog dejectedly looking at his flight logs showing all aircraft released.
Thank you drac.i believe without the lucky shot hood and Prince of Wales would have emerged victorious
Additional question on Peral Harbor 1941, what is the Oil Tankers been destroyed by the air attack.
Honestly I think one thing that really would have put severe pressure on Bismarck if it had gotten to france safely is the Washington and North Carolina. Being commissioned right around the time that Bismarck was sunk in actual history. North Carolina already being in the American side of the Atlantic around that time to guard against Tirpitz, and Washington being sent there in early 1942. Bismarck would have likely caused the headaches you mentioned for some months between her being repaired after the duel with Hood, and Washington and North Carolina arriving in the theater likely in late 1941 after their propulsion issues were sorted. Having two very new American battleships just outfitted with radar and with strong anti-aircraft batteries present would have put substantial pressure on Bismarck as it did with Tirpitz. And a battle between the three ships would be one I'd be curious as to how it'd go. Even if I suspect it'd go to the North Carolina's. I've not watched all of these alternate history specials so I'm not sure if you've covered it. But I think it'd be an interesting topic.
I agree with you on the last one. I would pay money to see it.
Good video.
On Enterprise and Yorktown NOT doing the Doolittle Raid and instead participating in the Battle Of Coral Sea, one should bear in mind the major effect that the Doolittle Raid had on the Japanese High Command. True, the attack did very little, if any, actual damage, but the PSYCHOLOGICAL effect was enormous. Air and naval units that may have been decisive elsewhere were instead held back for home defence. Admiral Yamamoto himself became greatly preoccupied with the safety of Tokyo, checking on it frequently - it was said that he only ever relaxed when the weather report for Tokyo was cloudy or worse, and it was (theoretically) safe from air attack. Plus, the Doolittle Raid was one factor in the Japanese fast-tracking their entire Midway Operation- the entire thing was set up in great haste and with less preparation than the more astute commanders would have liked.
On the Japanese invading Hawaii during / after / instead of the Pearl Harbour Raid, one has to ask what would they have given up, or NOT be able to do, just to carry this one thing off? Most of the Japanese Army was in deep in China, and that was where the Generals wanted them (for Imperial Japan, it was All About China, absolutely everything else was secondary to that). They HAD to take the oil-producing areas down south in order to stay economically functional and to safeguard their own supplies - that was a major reason for their starting the Pacific War in the first place. To maintain their supply lines, they HAD to control the Phllippines, Malaysia and the Dutch East Indies. The troops they had to achieve all this, and the means to carry them, were in VERY limited supply. Later on, during planning for the Midway Operation, there were proposals to invade the Hawaiian Islands, but the Japanese Army straight-out refused to supply the required troops, citing their 'more essential' commitments elsewhere.
Q&A for alternate history situation. How do you think the grand fleet would have fared against a combination American fleet / high seas fleet if America had joined the central powers in 1917.
This still gives the grand fleet superiority because some American units would have to deploy in the Pacific.Japan was an ally of Great Britain and had declared war on the central power s.the US Navy had good battleship s,but not many modern cruisers or destroyers, although new dds would soon arrive in dozens.
Quantity has a quality of its own, I'm stealling this quote.
Justin Walker
I have heard for quite some time now that that phrase is associated with Stalin describing the T34
I heard this as Stalin talking about the Russians in general; in short, it sucked to be a Russian soldier.
Then Comrade Stalin will have you sent to Gulag or Shot or Shot and then sent to Gulag. It's his quote.
In Atlantic Fleet Repulse has no chance against a Scharnhorst due to lack of armour. Of course her sic 15“ guns hit harder, but after receiving two salvos from the nine 11“ guns she‘s usually dead in the water.
Repulse still had similar armor to Renown, Renown had fought Scharnhorst and Gneisenau at the same time and yet Renown was less damaged than the twins. Repulse could certainly hold her own even against Scharnhorst
@@KatyushaLauncher The question was how the result would be *in the game*. AF doesn‘t represent the bad seaworthiness of the Scharnhorsts und thus not the breakdown of Scharnhorst‘s A turret, and the AI gunnery solutions are quite a bit worse than mine. Had the real encounter had happened in good weather conditions, Renown wouldn‘t have won either due to 6 vs. 18 main guns and definitely weaker armour.
@@RayyMusik Whoops, sorry about that thought you were talking about reality
Enjoyed this alternate history, no outlandish what ifs. Here's a what if, what if the two shadowing British Cruisers advance and engage from the other side as the Prince of Wales and Hood engage from the south? Granted Bismarck isn't going to totally shrug off some 8 in shells, in fact they probably give her something to think about. At least it would keep Prince Eugene busy. Then place Prince of Wales in between Bismarck and Hood. Perhaps Hood firing obliquely over Prince of Wales to engage Bismarck wall Prince of Wales also engages Bismarck. Bismarck would have to take Prince of Wales Under fire because it's the closer threat. Meanwhile on the other side of the Bismarck you got the two heavy Cruisers engaging their secondary battery and the prince Eugene.
should've just torpedo drift their way through the swordfish lol
Not just the RAF trying to hit Bismarck, but eventually the USAAF will show up too.
The U-boat question: I think Germany realizing their communications were not secure would have had a greater effect. No matter how good your boats are, if the enemy knows where they are going to be and has radar and sonar you're going to lose.
just another Alternate History question: the battle of Samar - what would happen if the Halsey's Task Force 34 be, where it should be? How the clash between 4 battleships of the Center Force and 4 BB of Task Force 34 would look like, and how it would finish ?