Projective Identification
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Here i try to explain the psychological defence called projective identification. Allsow projection is mentioned and splitting and introjective identification. This is extreme complex behaviours.
It's also possible that both the "subject" and "object" have a trait they are both unconsciously aware of, in which case they both act as the object and subject at the same time. It gets very confusing lol.
This happened to me. It was the most disorienting confusing thing I've experienced. Two years later and my reputation still feels tarnished. This was a good reminder to stay away from people this toxic.
@Untethered hi there, would you be interested to elaborate at all or no?
Like many others here, understanding this phenomenon in psychology has helped me tremendously in my personal affairs. Thank you.
I want to thank you again :-) Now I understand that others CAN manipulate my feelings and make me feel bad about myself, I have the ability to not to be manipulated. I have the control over my emotions that I want. You have helped me out of immense suffering. Bless you for your part in this.
Thank you Rune. Projective identification is something I've always struggled to grasp, but you have explained it simply and clearly.
Seeing it or not, they never admit to this traits. They live in the light of their false grandiosity. This has to do with nerve structures, and connections between neurons and synapses. Their traumatic starting point has as far as one know today little possibility of change. Change would imply reality understanding of them selves, which they don't. They really think their grandiose fantasy is reality!
Are you refering to narcissists. I seen it in psychotic depressives and bordeline personality disorder. Kernberg would say anyone with bpo
I've spent the last 2 hours desperately trying to understand this concept and,thanks to your video, I have finally mastered it! Thank you so much!!!! 😀😀😀😀😀
My pleasure Anna Boyd :-)
Rune, towards the end of this vid you touch on introjective identification in an interesting way....concerning Ns and Bdlines...which explains why people they target feel like they have been 'soulraped'...the predator 'steals' the core identity and qualities of the target. Thank you.
Oh the pains of maturing, I'm 46 and only just getting my head around this, nice job explaining it.
This is such a great little video. I often share it with clients and friends to explain this extremely complex behavior that is so devastating, particularly to children.
Thank you Isobel, its a behaviour that makes serious problem for many people in contact with this kins of behaviour. Learning about this can help many to avoid and at least understand.
Thank you so much for your videos. I believe this is what happened between my NPD mother and myself. I didn't know it at the time and I lived out what she kept telling me I was. Now several years later I have woken up. However she and my ex husband are still trying to convince me I am someone I am not. I realise it is their own unconscious shame. Trying to explain that to anyone is almost impossible. As a result my children suffer from parental alienation and psychological abuse. I have been shunned and scapegoated from my family. I wish I had woken up sooner. Thank you again
Each day is a new day. Its never too late to make a fresher and a better start.
My Family and also some very narc people I Unfortunately had to work with
Sickos
This is so interesting and completely endorses what I have been talking about for a long time...ie who the anger belongs to. The most interesting part for me is that the origins of the anger is not in the subject's awareness. I think this is critical in understanding and accepting this very popular behaviour!..I used to be that projecting person until I worked my way through and out of it completely, having realised all the negative and destrucive things in my life were coming from me, not to me. I and am now having karmic payback but finding it almost impossible to deal with as recipient. Thank you for this easy and wonderful explanation.
The context is essential in validating your hypothesis. Anger often can be caused by willing sadistic behavior (unduly exercise of power) by person B (the object). This happens very often when there is a power unbalance. The degree of anger triggered, is proportional to the tolerance for stress by person A.
@ Linda Middlemist
I'm sorry to hear that. What we give we receive back: I'm learning that too... not theoretically, as before, but in experience: and it may all just be what Dr Lee, who healed a hospital ward full of insane people, by Ho'oponopono, called his "data stream". Whatever around us, on our own particular life, is what we heal: outside of us as well as inside.
Thus we step out of karma.
Yes. Narcissists especially are masters of their craft, unbeknownst to themselves! Thank you for explaining this to the world.
1. Projective identification in this form is mostly seen in people with personality disturbance an psychothic persons. They often have described early traumas.
2. For most subjects this happens unconscious, it become concious for them when they identify with it in the object. The claims they make against the object is fantasy, because its not the object but the subject that has these traits.
My wife engaged in this behaviour with great detriment to me. I now have problems with the legal system.
1. She was born in a foreign country and her parents left her there as an infant while they came over here. Later, she was molested by an uncle.
2. Having done some research on BPD/NPD, I confronted her: "I know you know I know" and she dissociated. Blank eyed stare. There IS some core understanding of what she is doing, but she cannot admit or tolerate it.
3. She is a psychiatric nurse who must know this
The SUBJECT seeks answers, knowledge that "emotional immaturity" denies him...perhaps, even healing...most OBJECTS are incapable of giving (due to lack of understanding the situation),...The OBJECT should respond with calmness, (assuming object is aware of the subject's narcissism). demonstrating, good-will, convincing the (child)/SUBJECT that Aggression, soon evaporates when handled properly, with little anger or further exertion possible... Communication is key and the wanting to end rather than furthering negative AGGRESSION....the narcissist Projective Identification can be used to MODIFY or, manipulate, add structure with-in the narcissist inner, barren landscape, (the void between grandiosity and reality). You have explained this very well Doctor, Thank you very much!
Very well explanation of a very complex & complicated psychological matter.
Excellent, thank you! I realize that I see this happen all the time, after your explanation. Very, very true and very concerning what you say about miscarriage of justice due to protective identification.
Thanks for the explanation. Projective identification is indeed very subtle!
Very useful. Layers upon layers. Your clear definitions and articulation make a great basis for discussion. Thank you Rune.
This was such a helpful, useful video. It has been invaluable when I've worked with supervisees and we are all struggling with a clear understanding of this toxic dynamic. It really helps to protect the innocent.
I am so glad I found this information. It helps explain a lot and it is my opinion that every social worker should study this subject.
I endured a narcissistic " reign of terror " from infancy thru 17 yrs of age. I recall the symmetry between my Dad's own, brutal violence and his feral projectivity toward my Mother and myself. During his violent tirades, his words always painted an inadvertent "self-portrait " of his own feral cruelty, always projected outward onto others, where it remained un-examined. Since those days, I've dealt 24/7 with chronic, insidious clinical depression, Introjective identification and suicidal ideation: but I am still here.
I wish I had understood this dynamic sooner. I didn’t know what scapegoat abuse was in families and now I see my siblings do not have any awareness of what they are doing no matter how much they are confronted with the truth. We endured so much trauma growing up and they refuse to get help and instead want to blame me for things that are wrong just like our narcissistic parent did.
Jesus christ narcissism kills existing empathy in sacrifice for chronic pain-relief
I learned about projective identification in my social work masters program but I have to admit I never fully understood it. Your video is by far the clearest explanation I have seen yet for how this works. Thank you.
extremely well explained video. this is the best explanation of these complicated defense mechanisms i have ever heard, thank you so much, i am a second year psychiatry resident and this is really helpful for me especially when i am in my initial stages of psychotherapy training.
I think I've commented here before, but I had to watch it again. This is such an excellent explanation of such a complicated process! What really helps are the visuals. Thanks so much.
A helpful and lucid explanation of this complex phenomena - the diagrams are much better than the ones I drew many years ago when explaining this to a group! I admire you making the video in English - it can't be easy talking about these concepts in another language.
Thank you Rune. You made clear the concept and helped shed light on a situation in my own life. I am grateful for your sharing your knowledge. Be blessed.
+Rose Ann Vita My pleasure.
For a difficult and complex subject you did an excellent job of presenting the material in an understandable way to the layperson. Absolutely fascinating stuff.
Thank you Rune - this really helped me to understand. Graphics supported by your narrative did the trick.
I discovered this video today and was able to identify this as having happened to me very recently. Thank you for the video and the explanation!!
Thank you! Great video about projective identification.
I have recherched for such a long time to receive the understandable information you have given here, and not found these, for me, ultimate answers for a very complex situation. Thankyou so much for sharing this topic in such an understandable fashion..... And yes, 'miscarriage of justice' is the horror that follows inevitably, when the court system is poorly educated in, what seems, basic psychological knowledge.
From what you write i think the trauma of his fathers death may have brought about his behavior today. In a therapeutic setting you cant fight back on the projection, it makes things worse. What you can do is make him understand that his projected material hurts you (without blaming him). His aggression scares you and so on. He probably needs help from someone versed in and with a deeper understanding of PI. Normal therapeuts dont have this.
Thank you for presenting this complicated issue in simplified terms. The visuals are very helpful!
Thank you for descriping this behavior to me. It opened my eyes to alot of what is happening with myself and my family members. Please keep doing this good work. Connie Carmona
Story of my life. Mum borderline, Dad narc, 3 breakdowns on way to fourth!
Thank you so much. I just experienced this and was accused of the behaviours I was pushing back on, and did not back down on it, and was discarded in a cold, unfeeling way. It was confusing and created self-doubt but this has explained the situation so clearly and given me peace in my heart and mind. It is also scary to think what type of person I was dealing with. Who knows how bad it could have gotten? :O
Sounds like a diagnosis for racism. So we can say that being racist is projection & racism (stereotyping, racial profiling & prejudice) are projective identification.
Unfortunately, believe this or not, licensed professional therapists are not allowed to speak on the matter of RACISM.....
Dear sir, Thank you so much for sharing your precious knowledge with us. This video has proved to be a break through for my research thesis. The character I am analyzing seemed innocent till i watched this video, and now i know he was projecting his aggression due to a repressed memory. This has totally changed the direction of my character analysis. Thank you. Whether you like it or not, i will surely thank you in "Acknowledgments".
You sir, are a legend for giving this explanation. I thought I knew what projection was, but this is more in-depth and this gives an exact portrait of what my sister does to me. I could not explain it to her. (Not that she would listen to anything I would have to say anyway) Especially stealing my features (and ideas, anything good I do) and puts all the bad (of her) onto me. My sister does this to me ALL the time! But worse has her puppet friends and also gets other people to hate me whenever she can. Practically everyone in my family are narcissists. I have always been the quiet one and just tried to stay invisible/keep out of their way. One amazing thing my sister said to me once was "At least I get help for *MY* problems" ( I honestly had NO idea what she was talking about). I knew she had therapy but honestly I think it has made her behaviour WORSE! She is a lot more aggressive. (does that happen? This was when she cornered me, got me alone, went into a narc rage, after I had got away from her and not talked to her for about 10 mths) Anyway I will just end by saying I just LOVE this video. Especially from 8:00 - taking your good qualities too - I didn't know that was part of it, I thought that was a whole separate thing.:-)
Thank you. This is a very complicated behavior that involves many different processes. "Splitting" is one defense important for this deviant behavior. As you can se these people have serious problems about their own borders go Self. The division between ME and YOU (subject/objekct) is disturbed.
Rune Fardal That's what I often said to others: don't get angry about it, it's MY business! I'M responsible! So WHY does your boss get angry with you while I did something? It doesn't make sense! And why don't you allow me to grieve over the end over our friendship? IT"S MY GRIEVE!!
Thank you for this. Excellent Job with your explanations and creating an easy example to follow.
Thank you for your explanation. It was easier to understand than you think. I appreciated the step-by-step diagrams.
Excellent work. It is indeed an extremely complex dynamic and it is not easy to get to the core of it. I wish he had given more examples. I am always on guard when people use the trick question "do you know what I mean?" It's a very dangerous and easy trap to fall into. Like in everything else in psychology, pathology is a matter of degree and appropriateness to time and place, but that little question immediately puts me on guard about what is coming.
Tusen takk for gode videoer. Det er generelt lite god informasjon om dette på youtube. Ser frem til mer :)
My older sister does this, but mainly on one topic. She's insecure and vain, but yesterday when she was going on I (diplomatically) tried to tell her it's a family of origin theme, that appearance is very important, and she ended up saying vanity is my issue when it's not. If it's mostly unconscious there is no way of correcting her ways. She can be quite aggressive in obsessing about it, but comes across like a hyper cheerleader. Really gets on my nerves. Wish she would get therapy, but she believes there's too much of a stigma attached to it, plus she's heavily into magical thinking not self-reflection.
I lived, unknowingly, with a narcissist for 10 years. I recognized early in the marriage that my ex had a mother issue. Again, not knowing anything about psychopathic behavior, I struggled with my once happy life. He killed two of my chihuahuas (one in front of me) and the authorities did nothing because he lied to them.
Then his attempt at extorting money from me did work in his favor and was part of the divorce settlement. BUT, after the divorce my discovery of his three felonies and one charge of “theft by deception “ went unheard by the court (miscarriage of justice).
He does operate “under the radar” as I then discovered I was his 5th wife!
He hoodwinked me, and his betrayal stole 10 years of my life.
He is currently searching for #6…at the age of 79. A freeloader extraordinaire.
I truly enjoyed your video
Trobble with PI is that this often is unconscious, meaning your boyfriend does not se any projection coming from him. He only identifies whit the projected material in his object-representation of you. His mental picture of you, consisting of the aggression he projected.
Problem is, you cant talk about the aggression. The reason he project is that this material is unbearable to him. He will deny it. Its not part of his conscious picture of him selves.
Yes, the lack of object/subject constancy is a prerequisite for projective identification. Perception of your own behavior as belonging to others, has an element of not so healthy boundaries. Very confusing for the surroundings.
Fantastic video, it is naturally like you said a hard to identify phenomenon but you managed to explain it very well
A wonderful explanation. Very helpful. thank you.
Very useful for me in my relationship. Thank you so much. With more clarity and awareness of these dynamics I can learn to respond more positively instead of being reactive.
An extremely helpful explanation of a difficult subject. Thank you..
I really enjoyed your video. You manage to explain a very complex theory in simple and easy to understand terms. As a social science researcher, I hope this will help me to develop better and more reflexive understandings of my relationship with my research participants. Thanks :)
My pleasure.
Very well put,...Very well explained!!!
Thank You.
Do you have any insights into what is happening in the psyche of the person projected upon and why? EG becoming confused and unsure of my own reality , questioning ...perhaps he is right. In the moment it feels like hell, like a kick in the gut, and I "collapse' and loose my sense of self.
To my knowledge, what happens is the subjects (unconscious) need to identify with the unbearable behavior in them selves, connected to their own trauma! As long as the negative traits stays in the object (projected) it does not threaten the subject. The subject is able to ACTIVATE emotions and affect in the object, similar to the projected material. This leads to confusion in the object because the object normally has self-insight enough to se that this behavior they have been manipulated into, is not coming from their own self. Thats why they question themselves, "Am i the crazy one"? Asking this question is also a sign of normality. Narcissists don't ask this questions about themselves.
Rune Fardal
Thank you. I am most grateful for your imput.
@@rufa Doctor,I think I may be narcissistic. How can I improve?
Many thanks. A good clear description of this phenomenon.
That was a very clear explanation of a difficult concept, thank you
Thanks for this! If you are a therapist, Robert Waska talks about how to deal with projective identification in his many books. I am learning and I would love to hear more about techniques for therapists when they become the receptacle of PI. For therapists: you would have to maintain empathy with the client while slowly introducing him/her to disowned material.
Thank you very much for this important contribution!
Thank you for this detailed explanation!!
This is fascinating!
Thank you for this video, it does explain it quite well.
Thank you dear... I understand the complicated picture with your sincere and clear explanation.
Excellent video! Thank you !
Iv always been interested in the language of denial and types of behaviours. I'm starting my masters in Pyscothreapry in sept and this helps with understanding my mothers toxic behaviour. Great video ! I'm from London
Im not sure if one can say the subject dont see these traits, is in denial og if they are displaced. That is maybe not the most important. What is important is that the subject denies these traits in them selves at the same time as they identifies with these traits in the object. The importance for the subject is that these traits is not associated by their own selves. And if they are, its because of the object. The subject is not held responsible.
Thank you for the visuals as well; very helpful.
Very clear Sir,
Thank you thank you. Excellent explaination
This is an excellent explanation for such a complex phenomenon that is usually difficult to understand. It is very helpful. Very well drawn and explained. Thank you. :)
Do you have other videos on different defense mechanisms?
thanks alot for this amazingly clear video. i've been struggling for a while with this concept. not knowing if i thruely grasped it. until now.
a question. how does this mechanism relate to empathy deficits in the subject? or to put it differently, if the subject were yo have no deficit in emphathy towards the object, would the subject then still be able to play this projective identification game with the object?
Amazing explanation!
wauwh really good. Thank you
Brilliant explanation, thank you
Thank you so much its becoming clearer now
Hi, thank you for a really good explanation. When I saw your video, all the pieces fell in place with my mother in law. She has had this behavior on and off for the last nine years, targeting different persons in the close family, and it seems to get stronger. Currently my partner is in the line of fire, and they just sink deeper and deeper into the conflict. Do you have any advice how to relate to this, being an object? I think she could have a borderline personality, but never had any help.
Great explanation!
Thank you for your time in making this
If I may suggest in any explanation videos show the pen first in a whole act then do the analysis
So far one of the clearest explanations for me in the confusing world of projection,transference, and all the other facets, techniques that get played out in psychotherapy that I am not sure are helpful or cruel. You are kind of seduced to the point of break down and dependency and then have to put ourself back together again without getting what you wanted, even a hug, leaving you maybe more worthless that when you started
I'm wondering if ANY subject has been trained to act more appropriately regardless of established neuron connections. I'm guessing it depends on severity of this diagnosis and the willingness to practice and then experience reinforcing outcomes . .
Introjection, projection and denial, as a Finnish analyst Veikko Tähkä put it. This is always the case when dealing with people with no object/subject constancy. They have no real boundaries, and that fact makes them very consuming in relationships of any kind. They are leeches.
Thanks for this presentation it was very helpful
Thank you so much for this video!
living as an expat in another country. i have forgotten the pincode for the atm card and went to the bank branch to get another one. the asistant told me that if i can't remember it, i would have needed to get a new card. i knew it was a rip-off. i got upset and raised my voice and lost my temper. the assistant didn't react likewise, simply asked to to try the possible code. it thankfully worked. i wish i could have keept my temper and calmly tackle the bullshit. not a projective identification case, but i still keep it with me. not good
this is so good explanation
Very interesting, thanks
Thank you very much for this explanation
Is the narcissist ever capable of seeing the reality in this situation, or are they forever stuck in this kind of thinking?
Oh my God, this is so complex, and yet clarifying so much. Now what if both are doing the same thing...
Glad i could be of help. Its very complicated in real life to expose this behavior, specially if one don't have the knowledge of this psychological defence mechanism.
what would cause a child to never move onto the depressive position from the paranoid schizoid? A person very close to me has had a very bad childhood (abusive parent, given up for adoption etc) and everything with her is "all or nothing", it's as if she was never able to leave the paranoid schizoid phase. It's extremely destructive and while I was taught it in class, it was only glossed over.
The visuals provide clarity.
Thank you for this clear explanation :)
Can a co-dependent that was the scapegoat of a narcissistic father do this when they think a relationship is ending?
It's a great video! Thanks a lot :)
How do we know if it is us or them doing it?
My step mother was emotionally abusive putting me down, insinuating I am unwelcome, worthless, contemptible, shameful . I took on the shame and hid as much as possible from her, to avoid more abuse then she accused me of being antisocial (not in the personality disorder sense but the introverted sense) and not trying in the family. The whole family ganged up on me in this way from age 7-17. Now I get bullied in workplaces. I’m not sure what I’m doing to perpetuate it. I don’t know what is me and what is others. It is so confusing.
Thank you, the person I married did this, Very dangerous deranged individual, put on me things I could never imagine to come up with, it’s a form of abuse that is so mind twisting consumes your every moment. They traumatize you, it’s hard to believe they really believe this.
He had it made, yes psychopath s difficult like living with demons.
Almost died of trauma panic high blood pressure.
Not only blame, they punish, steal,abuse you. They don’t know when to stop.
This is a very confusing explanation for me. But I was searching bc I learned about this from my therapist. My mother was badly abused- and she is a highly toxic sick woman who never got help. She has always been abusive. If she wants to fight there is no avoiding it. She will act in passive aggressive or even aggressive aggressive ways- she'd always do it when she thought I was all alone, when dad was gone, on the phone, in the car. After being bullied- and provoked- of course the natural response is to get defensive and fight back- and THEN! Oh boy- she's got you. When they sense they've gotten under your skin they sadistically ramp UP their efforts. Then in response to your defense- SHE is the VICTIM. Now you've sank to her level and YOU are demonized, & scapegoated. Ostracized- isolated... thank god for technology and iPhones because for the first time ever- I recorded her screaming at me- trying to provoke me to fight. I escaped and have it to bring to my therapist for help.
Good job, thank you