There’s a proliferation of videos and articles out there produced by homespun ‘relationship gurus’ who label all kinds of perfectly harmless traits and behaviours as ‘red flags’. We’re given a never-ending list of bogus, frivolous reasons to cut people out of our lives, encouraging alienation and isolation. My hope is to encourage a more cautious approach - one that takes appropriate measures to guard against destructive individuals but doesn't throw out good folks like trash.
As a wounded person who has operated from a place of harsh judgement for most of my life, learning these subtleties feels essential. I am just starting to learn, until 5 days ago I lived only in blame and judgement, even when I refused I was, or acted justified when I was caught in it... a hard thing to see at 39 years old, but I could never have started healing without admitting it. I threw a lot of good people away, including on the advice of some of these gurus. It almost feels, looking back, like I just wanted to stay that way because then I never had to take any responsibility for my healing, "they broke me, they are evil" even though the abuse stopped in my life years ago. Thank you ❤
This is how I've always understood the idea of red flags, not an immediate "get the f* out of here" but just a mental note to pay attention to something that could be a patern
Yes. I've read it on another comment here but I've found that setting boundaries - especially around maybe harmless, maybe "red flag" behaviours with people and seeing if they're respected is one way to navigate in sussing out new people.
I think what people consider red flags now should really be called yellow flags. To me, a red flag should mean to run and it should include things like crime, pushing boundaries, hard drugs, etc Or if you have some strange things that make you want to run, just don’t flaunt them online so everyone else doesn’t start thinking they also need that same boundary
@@youre764 I think you're describing what the video called "red lights". Red flags are things that _aren't_ immediately bad, but just get you worried that something bad might be coming later. You're right to call red flags "yellow" in the sense that the best response to them is to slow down and think more (according to the video anyway, which is probably right). So when you first spot a few red flags, that would be a "yellow light" i.e. slow down. But the red flags can stay forever, and that doesn't mean you need to stay slow forever.
@@solarydays I meant if you happen to discover the person has done things like that, not if they do it to you. That’s a valid red flag to me and 99% of all humans, nobody is trying to debate that and my list was not exhaustive
@@solarydays as I said, the red flag you stated was completely valid. As for more serious things (and I’m not victim blaming and saying people should notice if someone is this way, this is just an example if someone is so lenient with red flags and it gets to this point), generally, people can tell from their own observations if someone is addicted to some kind of hard drug. You’ll definitely be able to tell if they’re under the influence and when they’re not, they have distinct traits. If someone is a registered ess offender (which includes things like indecent exposure), their neighbors are required to be alerted, at least where I live. And I never said to brush off red flags, I directly stated that if you have seemingly strange red flags (and by that I meant things like “she breathes weird”), just don’t flaunt them on the internet, you’re not required to date someone you don’t like. And this really isn’t that serious, just my personal opinion. I don’t think I was clear enough, sorry about that, I think you just misunderstood what I’m trying to say
As a neurodivergent person with a tendency to become intensely attached to people, the discourse on “love bombing” has always made me uncomfortable because I know my behavior could be interpreted that way, even though I have no manipulative intent and never feel like the person I’m “love bombing” owes me anything in return. Thank you for talking about the nuances here.
You definitely make people uncomfortable with your "love bombing" though. That's for sure. Unless you monitor the person you're love bombing for feedback silently when they look uneasy to you and try to do it differently next time. Neurodivergence is not an excuse/license to make people serve your personal preferences.
I'd urge caution. Unless you can see the actual situations in real life themselves, don't just assume based off of definitions alone, that you know a real life person's behaviors or intentions. We are using the right words, reacting correctly; but as anyone in psychology understands, there's a difference between the presentation of a real world scenario, and the scenario itself. What assumptions are being made here...? Are there biases and personal experiences informing the judgment? "Love bombing", "toxicity", "neurodivergent"...etc. Message sent isn't always message received. Being charitable to the situation is better than to assert or condemn.
@@noiJadisCailleach While you're correct that neurodivergence is not an excuse for inappropiate behaviour, you don't know anything about this person and it's not your place to use a criticizing, accusatory writing style. From their comment, I can see no indication they think they're vindicated of all responsibility, they simply state appreciation for the nuance in the video. Also, for all we know, the people they get attached to could be perfectly fine or even preferential toward their behaviour.
Same! Sometimes, when that rare person undeerstands me, I am just so thankful. I want them to know how much I appreciate their company. I have a VERY small circle.
It's comforting to believe that we can always see harm coming, but that leads to inevitable victim blaming when one of these "clear signs" slips through the cracks. The truth is that we can't always see things coming. What's important is not having perfect armour, but having the tools to recover and heal when something slips past us.
often when others say "i knew that person was bad" it comes off as "i knew that person was bad, why were you stupid enough to not recognise it" to their victims
Yeah, sometimes this idea that we should have seen it coming is just another version of that New Age sort of Calvinism that says that you "created" everything that happened to you, or unconsciously "mocked it up" or "pulled it in." Just BS. We are not all-powerful. We don't know everything. We miss things. We make mistakes.
Not only that, but people change! If you have a long relationship it's possible for someone to fall into abusive tendencies they didn't have or at least didn't have as prominently before, but that can be enhanced by really harsh circumstances.
@@laiag4854 true, sometimes, tendencies they didn't even know they had. Went through that with my ex-husband. We got together very young, and it was the first major relationship for both of us. We both discovered some major flaws in our personalities. Our relationship did not survive, but our friendship did. Now, several years later and 2 kiddos later, we are thankful to each other. We might not have stayed together, but we helped one another find those flaws and start to fix them. No more trying to change who we were to fit inside the other person's box. We went and found the right persons and Co-parent well. Knowing when to walk away is a valuable skill. We wouldn't have known that if not for eachother.
Theramin Trees is full of hidden comedy. I was too nervous to say it before, but in spite of all the very serious stuff that goes down in these videos I find it easy to channel certain moments in a different light that makes them weirdly funny. It's my dream to watch or make Steamed Hams But It's TheraminTrees.
The popularization of "Therapy Words" from those that misapply them, has severely blemished their positive effect. I know as slang evolves it can take on new meaning, but losing the impact of the past meaning without good replacements really sucks.
I feel psychology needs to be rewritten from the ground up. It’s far too convoluted and confusing at the moment. It’s like wading through medieval grimoires. Being diagnosed with something is like being told one is possessed by a demon still!
@@n0b0d1-rc6dz ehhh, not neccesarily. It’s somewhat weird and vague because humans are somewhat weird and vague. As a psychology nut myself there’s definetly shit and misconceptions and even pretty bad stuff today, but only about as much as any science really. Science, and psychology, isn’t broken, it’s just really hard. In fact I’d say most of psychology’s inaccuracies and misdiagnosis rates etc is simply because it’s relatively new compared to many other science subjects. Environmental science is similarly new
I create illusions of connection every time I go to work. I am a nurse. I try to find a point of connection with someone quickly to establish a bit of rapport to start an instant connection with someone other than their presence in the hospital. I like to make people feel as comfortable as humanly possible during the short time I work with them. I never fully develop that. I will forget their names in a matter of days. While they’re here, they’re one of the centres of my world.
This is a very kind and considerate thing for you to do, and I think it's a prime example of how kindness and empathy is a part of human nature and shows in different ways. ❤
Is that really an illusion so much as it is just ephemeral? Within that context, I think it's reasonable for a connection to be 'real' without being longstanding
I wouldn't call that a lack of connection at all; its brevity doesn't negate the existence of one. For a moment in time, you may very well have been the brightest light in someone's world for doing just that... that means something. don't undersell yourself ❤and respect for what you do. (citations: multiple relatives who've been everything from nurses aid's to the head of a maternity ward)
Yeah. Its always important to remember that red flags NEED to be treated as simply signals. Part of a bigger picture. A bonfire and a house fire both put up smoke. Ignoring it outright or treating it as inherent proof of danger are both bad ideas.
Yeah, exactly. "Overreacting badly to a question" and "threatening self harm if you leave" can both be called red flags by relationship gurus on Reddit, but while one is an instant dealbreaker, the other could easily have a benign explanation.
Problem is as stated, overused or even used up to equal degree as deal-breaker. Let's be reasonable, when you're trying to live a life, you as individual wouldn't want to waste time into clearly off-putting things even if that's just the facade. You'll get tired from merely in the moment seeing them, thus attentively getting away from them, probably constructed by past trauma or biased tendency, etc, thus why our mind treat them beyond as red-flag. Not because they're threat to us, but also liability and nuisance to us detrimental against our need to preserving and forwarding own selfish interest no matter what, dealbreakers also not really limited to manipulation and violence intended being done to you, can also be avoidance of disabilities/risk that you don't want to subscribe into within the trade-off. People want to have established relationship with high-valued person, but this by itself is also highly intoxicating trait alike perfectionism, not everyone can be positive value that's useful and important for own growth, likewise there won't be such thing as casual 'ships, this can be understood because we're living in modern life that demand efficiency utmost.
I hate that love bombing is used so often as leverage. I shower my loved ones in affection for the sake of showering them in affection. It has driven off a few people in the past but when I love someone I just can't help myself. It feels good to comfort and be comforted, and so that's what I do. I don't expect anything for it, but it always comes off as buttering someone up. I'm unfathomably lucky to have surrounded myself with loved ones who understand this and reciprocate it.
I'm the same. My girl is the same too. We were both miserable in our past relationships, and we've been together for 14 years now. I think "love bombing" is a pretty rare thing irl, but it's the perfect clickbait so it garnered way more attention than it should. So please, don't stop spreading the love! This world really needs it ❤
As someone who gets easily overexcited in social settings (especially around the holidays) I really hate what seems to be the mass vilification, of what, for me, is just normal friendly behavior. Some people can barely be bothered to bring a veggie tray or six pack of cola to a potluck; I'm the sort of person who will bring half a buffet's worth of food with me, on account of I couldn't choose what dish to make (what can I say, I like to cook). There's no need to assume some sort of nasty ulterior motive, but for some reason some people do (I like to think it's cause they are just too bitter to understand why someone would WANT to go through the extra effort, but that's just my pet theory). All in all I'm usually the one getting taken advantage of, seeing as how I am so easily willing to go the extra mile, but I learned pretty early on in life not to over-extend myself for strangers, so it's still a pretty rare occurrence and definitely doesn't happen twice.
See, I think the sudden and inappropriate displays of affection don't necessarily need to be a premeditated attempt at manipulation to be potentially problematic. A lot of people have a tendency to put new people on a pedestal, and if someone you literally just met is suddenly showering you in compliments and gifts and attention, that can be a sign that they're idealizing you and you could be in trouble when you don't live up to their expectations.
It's dumb but humans do it with dogs Did it with wolves also then when the wolf went back to the pack it got attacked back to its level Because you give off either praise scold energy
@@biohazardbin No way. You're telling me people aren't into depressed nihilists? The nerve of some people! And you say you HATE them for this?? I can't see how you may not be liked by some people, man...!
It's not the same as mirroring but us autistic folks do something similar in an attempt to relate to people. We don't lie about our experience, but if we see similarities between our experiences and others experiences then we feel compelled to share it as a way of saying "I've been thru similar stuff", either to try and comfort them or make them feel included. For us, it's never a "making it about me" type of thing, but rather a "I know what that's like" thing.
Right, and a lot of people are like "well, but think about if someone did that to you!" yeah, I do, and that's why I'm doing it. That would be great. I actually avoid telling people things because they just keep responding with "wow haha" or "awww that sucks :(" instead of actually engaging in the topic with similar anecdotes or discussion about the wider issue presented. have an actual conversation with me instead of being performative all the time ! >_>
@@reidleblanc3140 Yeah, that's the thing, we like it when people do it to us. When you do it to an autistic person, we perceive it as helpful because of how our minds work. The neurotypical way of expressing empathy/ relating to people is usually perceived by autistic people as being patronising, and as expressing shallow platitudes. That's why most autistic people do it that way, because from our perspective it feels genuine and caring, whereas doing it the neurotypical way feels shallow, dishonest and morally wrong. For an analogy, imagine you shared a really traumatic experience, and the other person replied with "oh well, everything happens for a reason!" or "it is what it is, move on!". That's how neurotypical style empathy statements often come across to autistic people. Just one of many reasons why the "golden rule" doesn't really work when explaining social concepts to us, because our way of thinking and feeling is just too different to most people and the way we want to be treated and the way others want to be treated are quite different and often opposed to each other. Same thing with direct, clear communication which we like and need, but neurotypicals usually don't, perceiving it as "rude", "pedantic" or even "challenging".
Isn’t mirroring also a form of autistic masking? I find myself mirroring mannerisms and even accents subconsciously. I also would not make claims that I believe to be false, but if I don’t know what to say in response to something without coming across as a complete weirdo, I might passively agree or make broad ambiguous statements in an effort to move the interaction past an uncomfortable topic.
what's annoying about is that i've been taught multiple things that all clash with each other :/. it's "relate to others and show empathy" but "don't do it like that bc we think ur being flat out narcissistic and we won't tell exactly what ur doing wrong. but also don't respond dryly to a convo bc it shows ur not listening and don't actually care" it's literally like what am i supposed to do i hate saying "that sucks" or something bc it feels so forced and fake. i also hate getting it back :/. that was actually a problem with my ex bestie bc i felt like she didn't care bc she always responded so dryly. guess its a thing most people do 😭
wait what? that's an autistic trait? i've been doing that a lot my whole life and i like when people relate to me by doing that... i'm not sure if i am autistic tbh
I've been "too" earnest cheerful and open since I was little. People often treat my overly nice and optimistic personality with suspicion. It's a defense reaction from a childhood filled with CPTSD. I may be a codependent people pleaser, but I'm also a peacemaker and a problem solver. I really do mean the sweet things I say, but also I mentally melt down during conflict, so I avoid it desperately. I'm in therapy, and my friends and family are impressed by my self awareness, but it's still a struggle. I learn so much from your videos. Thanks❤
I thrive on conflict. I think I’m at my best when things are stressful and people are losing their shit. Slowing down and relinquishing control in everyday situations has been a multi-decade undertaking. Any success is entirely due to other people’s influence, particularly the missus. The grass isn’t greener on either side. It’s eye opening to realize you’ve been actively working against your own self interests. Cheers!
Something I appreciate about this channel is that, despite belonging to a therapist, being on RUclips, and exploring abuse, the videos do not market themselves to the point of contortion. It's not popcorn psychology hinging on why someone who hurt you is a narcissist or otherwise pathologizing people or the viewer to explain the viewer's experiences-it does not need excessive ethos (the creator's credentials, the wholesale invalidation of the abuser or validation of the viewer) or pathos (here's what your feelings mean, or: CLICK HERE TO HAVE ALL YOUR SUFFERING EXPLAINED AND SOLVED GOING FORWARD). So often it feels as if the easily marketable, uncritical and incautious dissemination of therapeutic/psychological ideas arms abusers with the authority of "therapy talk", isolates the abused by encouraging them to act on any prescription of when someone should be cut out, and ultimately works against the appeal of the ideas. This channel avoids that, being emotionally resonant enough to be appropriate and appealing in its content, but not abusing the authority of its ideas and making sure to constantly maintain thoughtful, critical reasoning. It's a breath of fresh air.
@@TheraminTrees 🍻I really appreciate your work! This video caught me at a perfect time in the wake of a very relevant breakup, and this is one of the few things I've heard/read/watched that could resonate with the experience.
This is one of those comments i agree so much with but wouldnt know how to put it into the right words myself. The only thing i would add is that despite ideas on the channel being complicated and nuanced they are very well presented in a clear and digestable way through stories, visualisations and logical explenations. Presenting ideas in overly simplified way could be harmful both because it could lead to simply wrong views (ex. red flags = red lights) or leave an impression on the viewer that the idea is so black and white that they would never fall for anything similar (people who believe they could not be manipulated are probably the easiest to)
Yeah the whole narcissist thing is cringe. I'm much more understanding when a lay person uses that word, because they typically just mean "this person is selfish and inconsiderate to the point of hurting others". It becomes a problem when you try to actually link it to a real diagnosis or make it a Type Of Guy, because anyone is capable of acting that way and basically everyone has people who they dehumanize to some degree.
This is an exceptionally good video. I had an abusive friend that leveraged red flags, and my own internal shame and scarcity mindset helped her control my behavior. Anytime I ticked a "red flag" box I would get reprimanded, and I would feel like garbage, then avoid it. Then I would hit the next one. The entire time I was confused, like how is any of this abusive? I don't understand! What I did, I learned, wasn't abusive. "you loved bombed me" no, I was just loving, and maintained it for the entire friendship. "you threatened suicide if I left", no, I earnestly talked about my suicidality and depression, she personalized it. "you stalked me!" No, I simply checked in when you were giving me the silent treatment. The list can go on about the ways she leveraged "red flags" to abuse me. And I see this, extremely commonly among my generation, that oh so loves thought crime and simple labels. One of my favorite personal slogans is "love bombing is not about the love, it's about the withdrawal of love"
This is the exact same set of things that happened with me and my previous friend. We bonded so fast and it was like magic, the best friend I ever had...it could never get any better. And then it got abusive, slowly over time. Silent treatment, then he would come back and scream at me for abandoning him if I didn't try to contact him when he was ignoring me, threatening to end himself, then saying that I was threatening the same thing when I never did. He made me feel guilt, shame, and complete confusion. I cut him off last August, next month will be one year away from him.
Yeah. Unfortunately their insecurity and need for control drives them to weaponize therapy speak. They’ll literally say anything to keep you in a subordinate position to them.
Ha! I know someone just like that. They're still talking about having a stalker ex to people I know despite me 100% cutting off contact. I don't even have social media. Some people just need to be the victim, even when they're the one who got cut off for being abusive.
These are the very people misusing the terms and insisting that their behaviors belong to us. I don’t care who will reprimand me about labeling my former best friend some version of sociopath. If they knew what I knew of the way she treats people and plans it out, they’d understand. That said, I didn’t call her out for these behaviors per se. I observed for decades, withdrew in stages, and finally used one of her attacks to end it all and walk away for good. I reread my journal entries to remind me that I cared for her but she took advantage of me and treated our friendship like some sick game. I’m glad to be well rid of the flashing red flag that I thought was a friend.
@@StudlyFudd13 I went through something similar, though she never screamed at me for leaving. We would hit periods of intense connection, I would get too close and then she'd withdraw. Not with a fight or something, but grow quiet. I let her do her thing and over time, she picked it up again and I made sure I was welcoming. I made sure not to depend on her too much, as she was flakey with appointments and not hold it too much against her when she flaked out. This changed when I told her that I trusted her. That was when the abusive tactics started, I imagine the thought pattern was something like 'since she isnt gonna leave, I am going to be honest with her' and we know what we say about honesty without tact. That is just cruelty. And she flipped the fuck out when I refused her cruelty. When I wanted to be treated with kindness and grace. And no, I didnt 'deserve' that because she was right, I was wrong and I needed to work on my.... Dylectia, PTSD, CPTSD and autism to comform to the standard she was setting for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. No. Pointing her behavior out led to more explosive rage and she treated me like I was an entitled child instead of an adult with disabilities. Her monologue ended with an 'I HOPE YOUR THERAPIST SHINES SOME LIGHT ON THIS' and my therapist bursting into laughter by the phrase alone. She hoped another authority would punish me for rejecting the 'help' from her. It was wild.
It’s been frustrating seeing Red Flag spammed across the internet like a witch hunt. People jumping on a trend for clicks and attention, even if they have to spread misinformation and distrust to do it. Your level-headed and well-worded assessments always bring me so much satisfaction.
The double binds video is a great video on witch hunter behavior. I've seen these clout hunters use Kafka traps when dealing with people who are accused with things like grooming even if the evidence is clear that it's not their intention, they are trapped in these "no win arguments." It's like watching a murder, it bothers me how shameless those clout chasers are.
I appreciate this video a whole lot as an "AuDHDer" because that sort of pop psychology ostracizes neurodivergent people even more than they already are. Prescriptive red flags just encourage even more Othering. While I may not always be compatible with other people, it's one thing for them to set boundaries between me and them, it's a whole other thing when they treat me like a monster because I missed some of their unspoken rules.
From a learning perspective, it seems like a classification problem. We want to remove the bad actors, but not at the cost of throwing out every relationship.
Thanks for putting it that way. Now I can objectively see that false positives and false negatives are inevitable instead of my personal failing in not being dumb/oblivious
I feel like there is also a problem of knowing the threshold of when somebody is a bad actor. Internet dating advice is full of red and green flags but no human is perfect so knowing what imperfections are acceptable becomes complicated, and how do you even know if your own expectations are healthy? I think if internet dating advice was followed to the max, most people would never be in relationships at all. Not enough people are perfect enough.
@@roymarshall_ There is a great deal of easy profit to be made with lonely people desparate to fill a void. The less human needs someone has met, the more succeptible they are to advertisers. Algorithms governing what advice gets to be heard likely have figured that out. Most brands have abusive relationships with thier customers, and it is getting worse a lot in our current time.
just wanna say, thank you for the gay representation without drawing any attention to it. so often people are afraid to paint any lgbt people negatively due to it having a knock on effect (i've legit been dm'd with that take away by a trans friend regarding the recent mr beast drama) or romanticising them as being far more caring due to the added hardship of being oppressed. but in actuality we're no different from anybody else, you get manipulators all the same and you get people far too on gaurd or recklessly attatched. so having a video describe a gay mans experiences the exact same as a straight man or a woman is refreshing. just allows you to fully empathise with them as a person instead of being asked to look through a pointless perspective which obscures it.
My cousin works 80 hour weeks to find cures for understudied diseases. My former best friend is a meth addict who tried to kill her last girlfriend on multiple occasions. Both of them are trans. It's almost like we're just people
@@bodinian yeah, one of the many amazing quotes of the show, would suggest it but it gets really really dark the more you go through. I do not suggest it to people that are mentally in a dark place, but its one of the best shows out there
After an intensely abusive relationship, I've come to realize I'm not ready to be in one. No matter to whom I talk to with romantic intent, I have this deep-seated fear inside me of "What if she's going to be abusive too?". I see even small signs as potential red flags and just leave. Even if she would have turned out not to be abusive, she'd deserve a better partner than I can be right now. Maybe in the future I'll have healed enough to give love a second chance. Maybe not.
As someone who was in the same position: when you meet the right one it'll be obvious you won't be abused again. You're so used to the idea of an abuser that you can't imagine a truly virtuous person. But they do exist. We just forget, became jaded and pessimistic because we normalised the abusers behaviour as "everyone will have these imperfections". But it isn't true. It's actually really easy not being abusive.
@@neotronextremCan you help me understand if I'm being abused real quick? I'm 99% sure, but I see things like this and get really really sad because I love my abuser still and she has a lot of past trauma I'm pretty sure isn't fake. I can buy she does the hurtful stuff out of brokenness and mental illness, except I still don't deserve that. I've offered her to just step out take a break from marriage to heal, but she doesn't want to work on the relationship at all so divorce is continuing as scheduled. She love bombed while we dated. Cold harsh rejections, rolling of the eyes, etc with sex after first 2 or 3 weeks into marriage. Excuse was past "sexual trauma" from abusive partners except she was totally hyper sexual when dating and during honeymoon.. Cried whenever we had relationship talks about how this/that hurts me, or if we could work on improving this/that. Tears turned to anger and guilt/shaming me for communicating. Would do this weird "stop bottling it up and communicate more" while I would say I'm literally doing that now, and if you want me to communicate more like I'm trying to do stop getting angry every time I do which only encourages me to communicate less. She got warm again when we started to conceive baby. After getting pregnant turned into an awful person. Was badly morning sick, but didn't listen to me, to doctor's, put me down constantly, was extremely demanding of all my attention etc. Manipulated me into buying a van, then leaves me with said van plots divorce, has BIL threaten me, posts on FB pictures of herself tagging me with baby bump emotionally blackmailed me. Projects all the abuse onto me, denies all responsibility or knowledge of BIL threats, though I saw messages of her laughing about my family being scared I'd get hurt. She coldly hangs up when I'm in the ER very depressed due to her abuse. When we reconcile she manipulates me into buying new wedding ring and taking her on extravagant anniversary trips. Changes baby name to hurt me. Can't offer good explanation to why eventually changes it back. Never really changed herself. Never helped with bills. Terrible housekeeper. Attempts suicide, uses sex and shame to get me not to talk about it. Family gaslights me to not take the suicide seriously. Guilts me for talking about out marriage with family. Leaves me again and kidnaps our baby. Falsely alleges emotional/verbal abuse to her doctor. I file divorce after she ignores my begging to see/hear my son. She then falsely alleges domestic violence physical assault when she tries to forcibly move back in with me. Tries to get me falsely arrested (cops saw exculpatory evidence proving she lied). Still guilting me wanting to do family and movies nights to co-parent well with our son after I say no I don't feel safe with her any more. Like I'm being selfish not doing what's best for our child to have him see us "get along". She made him miss doctor appointments and still has not apologized or owned up. Now I feel bad because I don't know if she actually loved me, or if she's always just had bad motives. Interspersed are good times, she's done kind things for me. Painted me sweet gifts, rubbed my back, of course we have shared close intimate time together. Bonded watching movies and shows. Played games together. She says nice things most of the time. Acts supportive. Has acted remorseful in the past but I don't know if that was just a tactic to get back in good graces so she could exploit me more. No idea. Is she just hurt and does this stuff defensively? I don't get it. I've racked my brains over how it could possibly be my fault. The 1st time she abandoned me was after a phone call where she had, what I believe, was a fake panic attack. After I supportively calmed her down I felt hurt, played with, and told her directly I needed to know where she stood on our marriage and if she was coming home or staying with parents to let me know so I could stop feeling jerked around and support her how she needed. That was construed as me "yelling at her" because I was crying a bit and emotional. The 2nd abandonment I still don't know what set her off. At first I thought it was me "overreacting" because she triggered my abandonment trauma SHE GAVE ME when she canceled plans to come home on time with our son which canceled plans I had with our son. I communicated my hurt, was very clear, but also direct and understandably harsh where she got defensive. Turns out that was NOT why she refused to return home, she plotted that before there was any clear argument. I can only speculate it was maybe because of a phone call where she wanted to get on weight loss drugs and I shot her down insurance wasn't going to cover it because she isn't diabetic we don't have $1,000/mo for that, it wouldn't be a long term solution any way, but please go talk with your OB/GYN and see options I want you to feel better. She's super insecure and I felt like I was maybe too critical in that? No idea. Sorry that was way too long of a story. I still struggle thinking maybe I didn't support her right. How could she not know I love her unconditionally when I stood by her after her suicide attempt and her disclosure of intrusive sexual thoughts towards our baby? Like, I struggle really hard to see how it's my fault but I know I was stressed and we were tight on cash in this economy. I know it was hard for her just like me. I wish she was better 🙏💔
@@LilJbm1 Hey, I'm not who you responded to, but I also don't think they read that wall so I'll take over for a sec. Get your kid and get out. You're trying to cover for your abuser way too much. The fact you're questioning it means you're not sitting right with it. If your child wants an emotional relationship with your partner when they're old enough to understand, let them have it, but imho distance yourself from this person before more is inflicted on you. You've done enough and staying still in this situation is only going to damage your child's emotional well-being too. Run.
at a time where self help and psychological content is being co-opted by malicious actors who cater their harmful content to dissected people, this channel is massive relief. always high quality and congruent with current academic work on related subjects.
Something I find frustrating about the language we use around "abusers" and their "tactics" is that although it correctly describes the action and the response that action is intended to evoke, it sort of paints a picture where abusers are like... a discrete group of malevolent people who intentionally sit down and plot how they will ensnare and manipulate their victims which is ... almost never the case. Victims of abuse are already primed to view the world as dangerous and hostile because of how trauma rewires the nervous system, so it makes complete sense to me that as a traumatized person hearing the way people talk about abuse, it makes sense to believe that these people are "out to hurt you" or "just narcissists" or whatever, but that isn't exactly helpful and I feel that it relinquishes a lot of our own agency going forward. The reality is that the vast majority of abusers aren't setting out to ensnare and manipulate you, they're just clueless insufferable people (likely victims of something themselves) who have no real self-awareness, acting from their own desperation and hanging out with the only people who will put up with them. The thing is, anyone with a functioning nervous system will notice bad behaviour and stop putting up with them long before there's any kind of attachment. By healing your own nervous system, it's possible to become one of these people that lets attachment develop slowly and is put off by bad behaviour long before it has a chance to become abuse. It doesn't matter who you attract, it matters who you're attracted to in return. I think the picture of the manipulative evil genius abuser pulling the strings of a helpless innocent not only takes agency away from someone who is trying to heal and primes us to see ourselves as perpetually victimized, but it also sort of... separates us from them in a way that makes it psychologically advantageous to see ourselves as the victim - because victims aren't perpetrators. People like to believe that we are incapable of harm, and in feeling like we are always the victim we get to also be that clueless insufferable person who doesn't see the impact of their actions on others, and anyone who puts up with us in this state is in for similar treatment.
I think this is a dangerous myth. Abuse is more or less always intentional. The abuser is seeking to get as much as they can from a relationship and give aw little back as possible. That's the crux of abusive relationships. People might do this because they're preoccupied with their own suffering. That suffering might even be severe or genuine. But not everyone who suffers turns to abuse as a solution. As weird as it might sound to you, yes, there really are people out there who are cruelly planning how to take as much as they can from the world and other people. And they aren't uncommon, either. It's the core of the dark tetrad, which makes up a significant amount of the population. Abusive people are really only able to form relationships with vulnerable people. People who have been abused are often more vulnerable to abuse. People who are simply oblivious can be corrected and will be sorry for hurting others. Abusers aren't open to serious correction, because the abuse in the relationship is the point for them. They don't view other people as human beings. They view us as objects to be used for their own gain. That's where abuse comes from. If they aren't doing that, they aren't abusers.
@@lucyferos205 Very strongly disagree with this on like a personal experience of myself and others level but I'd love to see a study supporting it if you've got one handy. Prepared to be convinced.
@@lucyferos205 To quote you, I think *this* is a dangerous myth, and frankly I'm very put off by the way you've written this comment because the phrasing is very reminiscent of what I hear from folks set on demonizing certain mental health disorders. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but I am letting you know that you've worded this in a way that's quite similar. Your description is of a fairy tale villain. Real life is rarely so black and white. While some people like this may exist, they are NOT the majority whatsoever. People who are oblivious often *can't* be corrected so easily, but it isn't because they secretly know what they're doing and are doing it purposefully. It's quite simple, really: humans do not like to be wrong, and will often rationalize their behavior even when they have decisively screwed up so they don't have to feel guilty about it. Abusers usually feel completely justified in their actions because of their own flawed perception of reality. Abusers are most often people who have trauma and mental illness themselves, and are dealing with it in maladaptive ways. Someone who threatens suicide to get their partner to stay, for example, is unquestionably abusive; but they likely aren't intentionally and maliciously trying to hurt their partner for funsies, they're dealing with a fear of abandonment and lashing out unhealthily as a result. "They don't view other people as human beings. They view us as objects to be used for their own gain. That's where abuse comes from. If they aren't doing that, they aren't abusers." This is false. The mindset of an abuser is not the defining feature. The behaviors are. To second the other comment, I'd love to see a study if you have one, because your argument goes against the general scientific consensus. I get that it's easier to think of abusers as evil, irredeemable monsters, but that doesn't actually help anyone. In doing this, you achieve two things: 1, you write off any possibility of rehabilitation and growth, and 2, you create a framework that allows many abusers to continue by thinking "well, I'm not like THAT, so I'm all good." The fact is that mental health and relationships are complex and nuanced things, and while abuse is absolutely terrible, we need to address the reality of it in order to make change, not make up some boogeyman of pure evil and shadows and pretend that's the reason people hurt others.
Like others have said, it's much more useful to categorize abusers by their actions and consequences than their motive. If you define abusers as Evil Villains then anyone who has a half-believable excuse about how they had good intentions will cause you to be vulnerable to abuse. On one hand you'll develop a healthy paranoia about strangers, but on the other hand you'll be vulnerable to something like an alcoholic father who only mistakenly beats his children while drunk, and always means well with a heart of gold.
The way you switch between straight and gay relationships is so validating. It's cold and matter of fact, not special or different in any way, just "Isak and greg".
A year ago today, my father died. A cruel, abusive narcissist finally dead. I was his favorite toy and at the same time the most disgusting person to exist to him. Silent treatments happened for reasons I couldn't understand, his abuse of the sexual variety at times violent and others a sick mockery of proving his "love" for me. I've never had a successful relationship with men because of him. Because while I dated terrible men, he continued to tell me that my misfortunes were my fault, and I deserved it all, all the while he was sexually abusing me. He called me a monster and a manipulator and made me question my sanity, calling me a narcissist and an abuser toward the end of his life, right after begging my forgiveness for his abuse. Now I spiral, unsure of who I am and if I'm truly the monster, and I avoid relationships of any kind with anyone.
I'm so, so sorry you had to go through that. Him trying to turn things around right when he was about to die sounds terrifying, honestly. I don't know what your life or relationships look like, but I can tell you're here. You're sharing your experiences and being honest about it. I can tell you're listening and being open, and so, that is the most important thing right now. That's the first step of healing.
The victim always crosses to become the abuser at some point. Gradually or dramatically. For now, what you need to do is sit down and analyze yourself how you are one or the other. You can do this by yourself or with help. I have definitely been an abused. But i am willing to admit i have definitely become an abuser at some point too. Now that i am wiser, i catch myself before i "choose" to act like an abuser to not let it happen. This process takes a very, very, very long time.
There is a lot to say and I think most other people will say the more, obvious stuff... But I think you should hear the obscure but deeply helpful stuff too. Sexual activity... Is understood by the body as physical affection... The reason it's so wrong for incestuous things to take place, is precisely because of what you're going through. There's a lot of guilt, shame and confusion. Your body would have felt both loved and abused... Although there IS a part of you, that would have felt loved because of it. It's so badly manipulative, because you will come across people who will unintentionally shame the part of you that felt at least some shred of love that way! I'm not saying that it was a huge or small part of you. I'm not saying that you didn't hate it and him for it either... All I'm trying to point out, is that the confusion you're expressing is very commonly associated with the sexual side of things. I've seen it more than I'd like to admit. I'm NOT saying that what your father did was loving by any measure, just to be clear! I'm just wanting to shine a light on a dynamic that is very often handled in a way that impedes victims from fully understanding themselves and then healing. I'd recommend trying or looking up a therapy called "IFS" (Internal Family System). You can learn how to do it alone too, so you don't actually have to see a therapist. Seeing a trained therapist would be good though (if you can), just because they can sometimes notice "parts" of you that you might not. I'm recommending IFS because it can really help to separate and untangle complex emotional entanglements. I hope you understand what I'm saying and don't think I'm making any kind's of excuses for your father or blaming you for a shred of it. I hope you find your path to peace and healing. 😔
I feel like a good way to detect bad people is to see how they respond to being told "no"/boundary setting and disagreement. That's how Devon showed his true colors in the story.
No to me makes me so happy to hear. 1. The person isn’t a pushover 2. They feel comfortable around me to express a negative emotion or something they disagree with healthily 3. They have autonomy and don’t just simply agree.
statements like these worry me though because there is a person in our frien groups that has been enforcing his boundaries/saying no more often lately, but doing so in quite a harsh/ sudden/ unexpected way, like saying it very firmly in a way that tends to make everyone kind of silent and uncomfortable for a long time, and over things that oftentimes noone could reasonably know of ahead of time, or sometimes things that i do not feel are justified, or dont seem like an actual boundary, and moreso just- something that they personally cant deal with very well emotionally, but isnt anyone's fault (such as telling me off and getting offended on my friends behalf for something i did, that my friend themselves said they were not bothered by in the slightest, or being very clingy/nervous over friends doing things without them) I thought at first that i was just being sensitive and that i shouldnt say anything because of statements like these because who am i to tell someone how to enforce their boundaries? But it kept happening to other people as well, who were also very taken aback and quite uncomfortable by the way they acted. Talking to this person often feels kind of tense and a bit like walking on egg shells, because i worry that any second they may suddenly out of nowhere coldy and firmly tell us not to do something that to us could be completely innocuous. So i dont know we're not being unreasonable right?? I dont think he is a bad person but i feel like if there is something you arent comfortable with people doing, that they couldnt know would be something that affects you so strongly, you should match the energy and ask a bit more gently, no? At least thats what i would do if someone accidentally made me uncomfortable, because how could they know? Im not just gonna harshly confront them and call them out out of nowhere for something they could not possibly know would affect me so badly. PLUS i feel like some stuff just is not reasonable to expect of others to do, and is something you need to work on yourself no? Like i handle rejection badly, but that doesnt mean i should call out people for rejecting me, it means i should work on myself because my self esteem is too poor and i am too sensitive, and need to get batter at handling this.
@@scribblecloud I get that. You telling them how their behavior is effecting you and others would itself be boundary setting and I certainly wasn't trying to say that setting boundaries was itself bad. That would be contradicting myself. I don't know this person but they sound exactly like the kind of person that may not respond well to being the one having boundaries set against them. They've decided they're entitled to more social control than they actually are. They also sound like someone who expects other people to *not* care about his own boundaries, so he feels like has to be overly harsh in order to be listened to, someone who's been brought to their breaking point in their own silence. I guess you do raise a good point on the question "What boundaries are people actually entitled to set?" What do you "own" as your personal space? There are people out their that think they own their partner and that someone else talking to them is stepping on "their" boundaries. If I want a door or window closed in the living room because it's letting in cold air, do I get to demand people close it? Do people living in an apartment with me who aren't paying for the apartment get to demand that I do chores? Personally, I feel like the answer to these questions is no but the overall topic is complicated. Someone could conceivably ask for boundaries they have no right to ask for and than write people off as bad if they don't listen. I feel like oftentimes, these things should be discussed rather than declared and set in stone. The follow-up to my statement by another comment is that you can judge someone by how they react to being told their wrong. Using this as an example, that doesn't mean a good person says they're wrong when someone tells them they're wrong. It means they are generally someone who is able to consider the possibility they may be wrong. I think the spirit of my original statement is that decent people are open to listening to others, even if they are wrong, not that you're a bad person if you don't give in to someone making demands and calling them boundaries. Maybe some boundaries really are immovable, maybe some should be respected just because you respect the relationship you have with another person. It's a topic I certainly don't have all the answers to though, I'm navigating it myself. It's also worth noting that, as you yourself pointed out, boundary setting doesn't have to be harsh. Perhaps you could inform this person of the effect they're having on others and reassure them that they don't need to be so harsh to get others to listen to them, and ask them to be a bit gentler.
@@scribblecloud I know I already left you a TED talk of a comment but to put my original criteria another way; "Do they listen to other people's needs?" You're not ignoring someone's needs by asking them to be more gentle. You're not even invalidating their boundaries. You're just putting forward your own.
You're one of the only persons who talks about modern social issues in such a magnificently well thought out way. Which is not only getting harder but also being supressed by a growing culture of emotionaly centered non sequiturs. Your work is much needed in your time and for that I thank you. ❤
I see a lot of myself in the "rush to commit" - growing up isolated gave me intense FOMO that made me feel like I had to "make up for lost time" with other people. Another part of me feels like if I don't rush in and immediately show passionate interest, I'm going to be passed on. That's probably an abandonment issue, I have reactive attachment disorder and I feel like I need to learn the proper expectations and timelines of relationships to repair that. This video gave me pause to reflect, thank you for explaining these traits so concisely.
@@solarydayswhat do you mean by “trying to form the type of relationships you missed out on as a kid”? What type of relationships are those, how are they different from adult relationships? I feel like I do that too, but I’m not sure if I fully understand what that means
I think it is important for people to simply set healthy boundaries in all of their relationships. It is tough to stand firm on your boundaries sometimes though.
I agree. People who truly care about you will respect your boundaries. If your boundaries make someone annoyed or angry, that's their problem and they can get lost if they don't like them. It's hard learning to say "no" when you've said "yes" most of your life, but each "no" gets easier the more you do it.
@@LimewirePirateand it’s even harder to relearn how to say “yes” again when you’ve fully learned how to say “no”. Spent my 20’s saying yes. My 30’s learning to say no. Now mid-40’s and realized I need a healthy split 60/40 yes/no.
@@Stolat79 If you don't mind some constructive criticism, I'd like to suggest, that it's not really about yes or no ratio's. With all the respect possible... I think most people don't actually see the person in front of them. At times, we even struggle to really know and see ourselves too. People aren't made of stone. We change and every single day, is a new day. Maybe it's a yes one day and a no the next... Usually because of the surrounding circumstances. I think the unfortunate truth is, that it's not just about "bad" or "good" labels or "flags" that we give people or isolated actions. It's about the circumstances and dynamic that we find it all within. That is very hard to fully see and understand, so maybe just take more time to think about what the current circumstances are for you and your partner, with each yes and no? That's my advice, for what it's worth... 😊
Because a great deal of it glorifies an awful culture in a very literal way to a degree other music just doesn't. Some rapper just got murdered recently and his most famous song was just him listing and mocking every single person who didn't like him who had been murdered up to that point. "Not all rap is like that" I'm speaking about the middle of the normal distribution. There are good reasons to dislike rap. And there is a reason why quite frequently, at least in the US, the worst people you will ever meet always happen to listen to rap. And no because I know people will go with the easy comebacks: this has nothing to do with race. All the biggest white assholes I've known... listened to rap. It's not a random coincidence.
Well, give yourself a pat on the back. I am constantly appalled by just how many of those who say they "embrace science and reason" can't manage to do that.
I was in the same boat until I realized the thing I hated (the assumption that you only hate something through lack of understanding with the cure being more exposure) is not exclusive to rap enjoyers.
The "zabaglione effect" reminds me of this one time when I was working at Raising Cane's Chicken Fingers, when we had a mandatory meeting for everyone who worked there. The general manager decided to ask everyone, "What is your favorite Disney movie?" for no legitimate reason (just an unnecessary "icebreaker"). Well, the first 5 or so people all said "Mulan". Sure, that movie's okay, but there's no way it's everyone's favorite. It was obvious that no one wanted to answer honestly.
I think I disagree with this method. I guess I understand where this rule of thumb comes from but in the case of long term relationships, is it really smart to think of the other party as unchanging ? We constantly change and neglecting that seems unhelpful to me.
@@user-dj9du6or1n I think the best way to look at it is "If they never change from this, would that be permissible?" And if not, end things. And then when they inevitably do change, apply the same system of judgement. It keeps you and your partners on your toes being your best and not decaying.
When people say "red flag" these days, it often means they're so full of themselves and their world is so filled with narcissistic nonsense that there's no room left for anything different, unfamiliar, or challenging; so they simply dismiss things that dont perfectly align with their narrow perspective. Love this channel! quality content, no BS!
I think another dimension to this is the world isn't as simple as two categories of people: bad and good. We're all on a spectrum and behavior depends on the circumstances as well. My relative might berate me when they are in a bad mood, but the relationship might still be worth it in the end to maintain despite their flaws. I'm sure we can all think of examples of edgecases like this in our lives. It just gets so much more complicated when covert tactics are used, so it's up to you to both predict how a person will actually behave in a relationship and then to know if it's worth it to you. It's really tough.
i feel like a lot of "red flag focused" mindsets become self-fulfilling. "oh he doenst treat women right overall, i can tell bc _____. I hate men who don't treat women right" then they don't like him when he didn't really do anything and he understandably doesn't like being around them, thus 'affirming' her beliefs in herself and her red flag spotting you gotta be a real strong individual to spot negative patterns in a group and yet refrain from over-presumption
A trait I find to be a red flag that seems to go unregarded by a lot of these types of people is when they wait egregiously long times to bring up problems with you. I had someone I thought I got along really well with wait a *YEAR* to bring up that I did some things that made them uncomfortable, and when I tried asking for specifics, they couldn't provide any. Being an addict of diplomacy I asked them to bring this stuff to my attention sooner. Then, a few months later, I realized I didn't relate to any of the people in their friend circle, and felt uncomfortable there myself because of some of their behaviors and negging. So I left.
@@solarydays I'm sorry, but no, everyone is owed honesty to some degree. It's not a matter of whether or not they're a casual acquaintance. If your reason is petty and personal then just own it. Otherwise you lock yourself into a myopic worldview where you place your personal opinion on a pedestal of morality. If I did something that upsets someone I fully expect them to make their discomfort clear so I can actually address it. I'm not a mind reader, nor is anyone else, and it's unhinged to expect people to be.
@@solarydays I should clarify that this person and I were alone together, so it's not like there was anyone outside to peer-pressure them into silence. They could've easily told me to ease up like they did with other things, and I respected that.
@@solarydays Gamer The only time I hung out with this person and I made them uncomfortable was explicitly when we were alone together. If what I did was THAT bad that this person was uncomfortable, they should've been able to remember it after a goddamn year. And this person let me into their circle of friends, even if I didn't fully integrate The onus is on the person with the goddamn problem to bring it up, not me to be a fucking mind reader It's really not rocket science It's being a mature adult, NOT A TEENAGER
@@solarydays It's people like you that turn everyone into socially inept babies incapable of establishing any sort of healthy boundaries with people, who create a web of lies and misunderstandings that only lead to more pain and suffering.
The problem has always been how “red flags” are often conflated with “behaviours differing from the norm”, which ends up filtering out a lot of people with good reasons to differ, like neurodivergence. I have pretty severe social anxiety, and it’s never felt great how large the overlap is between my more extreme symptoms and common “red flags”. Mirroring, inconsistency, lack of outward emotion and more are all things I cannot easily stop myself from doing, and are commonly seen as worrisome traits. You can imagine how this spirals with the anxiety itself into me trying desperately to mask these traits, which may help outwardly but does me absolutely no favours internally, mostly just making the anxiety worse. The type of person that always looks for the most unfavourable possible interpretations is unfortunately rather common online, and it’s a mindset that seems to be spreading. We always, always need to go in depth when it comes to other people. Surface level behaviours are almost never enough to gauge another person’s motivations. Be cautious of course, but for the love of god we don’t need to be jumping at every tiny thing. The worst outcome is when these things start becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. I’ve had a few friendships where I worried about not showing emotions enough, and since just exaggerating my honest emotions isn’t an option, I tried to work around the issue by being much more emotional in ways I didn’t actually internally feel. This successfully bypassed the anxiety, since it dodged the worry of being too open with my feelings, but it was also genuine and deliberate manipulation. It wasn’t malicious by any means, but it also wasn’t healthy for either party. And this kind of manipulative behaviour is slowly growing into a pattern. I have no interest in controlling other people in the way that may be dangerous here, but becoming so accustomed to false and manipulative relationships isn’t exactly something I want to happen. And that process has stemmed directly from this paranoia about people being manipulative.
I've had the Is An Only Child 'red flag' put upon me on day one joining a new work placement, from what later became apparent was the main clique of about 80% of the staff. The real red flag to me was the childish, group thinking, racist, misogynistic behaviour from them which I observed over the next few days to which I removed myself from the system.
i don't think i've ever been this early to a video before but it genuinely jumpscared me to see another upload so soon after the cluster B parent video perfect timing too -- the past year or so has been really bad for me due to an abusive relationship, and i've been trying my hardest to not let myself be mistreated like that again. rewatching your stuff over and over, and internalizing the messages that there's nothing inherently "wrong" or "abusable" about me, has helped me get past everything in a healthier way
Man dating is so complicated. I have been single all my life because I have ASD and trying to keep track of healthy behaviors and unhealthy behaviors is just overwhelming, especially in a world where people are so willing to misconstrue your behaviors. I’m glad I have people like Trees who can boil it down.
As a heavily neurodivergent person who struggles with social interaction, I'm always very confused and unsure about what's happening in my relationships with people. This video leads me to worry if I'm accidentally, or pershaps subconsciously feeding into these abusive behaviors
I relate to Isak's story so much. It's so hard to pull back and evaluate each sign for what it may be or is - and there's always the question of if you've made the right or wrong call. I'm still evaluating this now and worrying if I've made the right choices or not, but . . . if I trust my gut and go with the knowledge that I was given, and don't overanalyze, then I absolutely feel like I made the right calls.
I’m so so so glad you didn’t leave out “having the wrong phone” from today’s bogus red flag list. I have had android phones for ~8-10yrs because they’re cheaper and I don’t care, and people have legitimately shamed me for this. Even close friends. Got an iPhone recently simply because my phone broke and there was a deal on iPhone 14s.. people congratulated me. It’s very very disconcerting. Lol
For me it's the opposite. I immediately think less of someone when I learn they use Apple products. I guess that just shows I'm part of the lower class.
Man, just the information covered within TheraminTrees videos is enough to recommend it to others, it's always of such high-quality. But then couple that with a distinct, engaging, consistent animation style and a soothingly deep, matter-of-fact voice?! Just brilliant.
I'm curious how conscious these bad actors behave in their destructive behavior. Can you be an abuser without knowing it at all? How would one gauge themselves? Would love your insight on that.
I think there's a mix. I'd say we all behave in unthinking reflex ways sometimes - bad actors are no exception. Where we see someone confining misbehaviour behind closed doors, hiding/lying about it, behaving like a totally different person in 'polite company', we can say there's self-awareness. Many targets also recognise a familiar 'smirk' in their bad actors when they're stirring trouble. So some deliberate, some not.
Some forms of abuse are currently excused by society, so those people are often empowered thinking they're completely in the right no matter if they're hurting people. What comes to mind immediately are the "people pleasers" who never say what's wrong, give silent treatment, get angry at people for not guessing the problem, ghost people, etc. people with cluster B disorders frequently do the same things. if they're diagnosed, they think it gives them a free pass. But most abusers have mental illness at the root of their abuse... doesn't make it any better... they can heal and grow and stop hurting others.
My ex wife was mentally ill and raised wrong, she genuinely thought her behavior was always justified. Her ego couldn't take correction of any kind, and arguments were always on the other party according to her. Some people are genuinely delusional, and personally I think it's most of them :(
I so grateful to you for producing these videos. They must take so much time and effort. Tactics of abuse, Coercive Control and undue influence are so easy to label, but can be so ambiguous when faced with these behaviours in the real world. Your descriptions and stories illustrate what it can ‘look like’ and that is so important to break through the confusion and self doubt. Thank you.
It's a bit tough when an earnest, benign aspect of yourself is considered a red flag. Interrogation and love bombing are probably what I exhibit most. I both interrogate and reveal with ease, eager to connect and know the score. I want to know early on if there are any other red flags or red lights to address for either party, before committing. I also prefer open, candid conversations that get to the raw root of issues instead of caged responses to obtuse questions cause by a lack of information and understanding. As for love bombing, it's about as simple as a benign version could be. Showing ample external affection because I want my partner to feel good, appreciated and important just makes sense in my mind. Finding opportunities to be thoughtful is almost like a hobby in itself. I'm sure it comes across as overbearing.
Those aren't examples of interrogation and love bombing Interrogation is used to violate others' boundaries in order to have knowledge to use against them. It's used to make people doubt themselves rather than the abuser. Love bombing, likewise, is not earnest. It's not done to make people feel good. It's done to make people like and trust the abuser, even feel like the abuser is the only one who likes so much about them. You might unwittingly be crossing boundaries or coming on too strong, which can come across as a res flag, but that's social awkwardness and not abuse.
@@lucyferos205 yep yep. Though, I will say, people DO frequently interpret those as abuse/terribly rude. Recently in one of my online hobby groups a young girl was banned because she asked someone "too many" questions to get to know them, and everyone thought she was trying to stalk them (mind, she was asking about favorite color, hobbies, country of residence) and refused to accept she was being genuine. when I tried to defend her, they were like "no, we aren't discriminating against autistics." sigh!
@@reidleblanc3140There's not much we can do about other people's snap judgments. If it helps, everyone is disliked and unfairly judged to some degree. We just have to focus on the people who see us for who we are and appreciate us.
@@lucyferos205 The problem is, as slightly touched upon in the video, "Love bombing" is used to refer to any constant display of love, even if earnest due to somewhat death of the author through online discourse
I always fail to see red flags whether friendship or romantic relationship because I always intend to "understand" the person's behavior-in the end I get abused and mistreated. Some of my so called-friends told me that I'm the reason why I always end up to abusive relationship. I hope I can process my self and videos like yours.
i don't know you. But maybe it would help you to say "I'll need to think about that for a while" before saying or doing anything for people. It may give you time to consider how much you truly want to give, or helps to see if your boundaries get pushed.
Abusers almost always have mental health problems... that doesn't mean they're not abusers. Few people understand this... just because you can guess where their shitty behavior is coming from doesn't mean it's ok. like very few people will do evil stuff for the sake of doing evil stuff. Most of them have somewhere in their brain telling them it's acceptable. but they'll probably never learn it's not if you continue to validate them. "your mental illness is lying to you right now.."
Isaac is a giga chad. This video had some strong lines. "look at their behaviour, imagine it's never going to change, and ask ourselves if we would be prepared to live with that" is something I've felt for a long time and really liked how you put it in words. I find that often I have to ask this question with various partners, some abusive, most not but all so far simply not meshing with fundamental aspects of my life. It can be so discouraging to repeatedly find that the answer is no, and that it can even be a single bad trait or reoccurring issue. In the past I found myself very tempted to just shove down my misgivings and try to accept it. I don't know where it came from, self confidence, age, a quieter lifestyle, or just experience knowing I can still meet new people at any time. But that question has quickly become starkly contrasted with the flipside. "Continuing with my own behaviour, imagining I never change, would I prefer to live the rest of my life alone if I need to" and more and more I find the answer is simply, yes. It's sometimes disappointing to meet so many people that after giving them ample time I simply find I live a much nicer life without them. But I find it easier every time to start over again and open myself up, cautiously and optimistically, with low risks. And I hope that over time I will continue to meet a few more people that I could live with just the way they are. And I hope someday one of those people can be a partner, but until then. I can live with myself, as I am, even if I stopped improving, on my own. And that gives me strength to resist impulsive and regretful relationships of all types.
I find it interesting that previous generations love advice- showing interest, mirroring their positive body language etc, was seen as normal 10-20 years ago. Now the very same behaviours are called red flags by gurus.
I wonder if maybe you could do a video talking about the corollary idea of green flags. I think with both kinds of flags it’s the overall pattern that matters. If a person exhibits only one or two red flags, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a bad person, and if a person exhibits one or two green flags that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a good person. It’s when the flags start becoming abundant that you can start seeing the overall picture. But that’s something that takes time, and reflexively cutting someone out of your life because of one red flag (especially if it’s a stupid red flag) is only going to push away many potentially happy relationships. There’s no magic bullet to avoid getting hurt again apart from abandoning civilization and living by yourself away from all other people in a hut in the woods. But that has its own problems.
"Love bombing" is an annoying one. Some people are just very intense and powerful in their romantic feelings. Love bombing is only a problem (more so a symptom) when confounded with other more convicting red flags.
This has brought a lot of clarity into how I can better asses partners and also why it's a good thing that the current one was so hesitant with me. I exhibit Greg and Isaac behavior combined (honest love bombing + susceptibility) You've reassured me that it's okay to build trust over time and to have doubts. On both sides. I used to feel guilt for not trusting a potential partner quickly and evaluating them. But without doing that a leap of faith can be foolishness and a lack of care for one's own heart. Thanks a lot, love your work!
Thank you! It's funny isn't it. With any other big investment, we'd be encouraged to do our research. But with the person we might be spending our lives with, we're often feel we should just leap in.
This reminds me a lot of how neurodivergent people can be treated like outcasts because people think they're rude or unempathetic, when in reality they just lack social grace. I know several people like this who others treat awfully for this exact reason, and one of them is one of the kindest, most encouraging people I know. I wish people would be slower to judge others because they dont do or say the exact right thing all the time.
You have helped me through so much. I am a traumatized individual, you're videos helped me navigate a relationship with my older abusive (he's special needs) brother, helped me navigate relationships with my extended family (they're pretty religious and I'm a transgender atheist. We love each other a lot and they do know about my identity now but I was stressed for a while) and helped me leave a codependent relationship. You have saved my life. Thank you for your videos.
When I was 19 I dated someone with borderline personality disorder, and within the first month there were red flags that my dad (69 years old at the time, very wise man, especially regarding relationships between adults) saw clearly, and he tried to warn me, but I spent another month or so with him, before I realized that he had serious mental health issues, and ended things. He responded by threatening suicide, and for a minute I thought he had done so (since I hadn’t heard anything from him after he sent the suicide note) but it turns out he had been arrested, apparently some of his lies met the threshold of fraud, and eventually he was incarcerated in a mental hospital. The most traumatic thing wasn’t the relationship, or it’s end, or really anything about him, the lasting trauma came from when the police questioned me regarding him and my relationship with him, in their investigation to arrest him, I have no idea what he told them about me, but the questioning was extremely insulting, humiliating, and rude. Plus they threatened to arrest me if I didn’t cooperate. But I suspect that’s just SOP for police investigations. My point is, I never saw that same set of red flags again until I saw George Santos running for Congress, and immediately I knew this was someone else with borderline personality disorder, and I told everyone I knew not to vote for him, because everything he said would turn out to be a lie, just like it had been with the guy I dated all those years ago. I think it’s hard to recognize some sets of red flags as being a set of red flags, unless you have already experienced them in a different person.
not to sound like a douche but you appear to exhibit the exact kind of behavior this video is warning against. Personally I think wanting to end a relationship even in the dating phase after finding out they have mental health issues of any kind is ridiculous. Unless you (or i guess them) can give more info i cant help but from my own experience see that as a red light. Relationships are about helping each other grow more than anything. yes, people with poor mental health can be difficult but not everyone is on the extreme end and mutual problem solving is just part of how relationships work. Look at yourself you’ve categorized an entire group of people through no fault of their own with a condition they were born with, ALL OF THEM, as unsalvageable pathological liars who will just repeat the same kind of bad experiences you’ve had before. This is the kind of logic people who justify racism use. Not trying to white knight that guy, i know nothing about him, but neither you me or anyone else knows anything about all the other people with that stuff, only they do, so why do you feel the need to antagonize them?
dude, you mean to tell me that ON TOP of writing about and presenting the incredibly insightful information in this video that you animated it AND did the music?! if that isn't textbook quality content I don't know what is!
~2:00 This list of superficial "red flags" sounds a lot like the "ick" phenomenon. With Icks perfectly normal behavior is "revolting" and used to excuse abandoning relationships.
the "ick" is pretty plainly about personal preferences and attraction. I've never heard it as an excuse for "abandoning relationships". Certainly it's a reason to stop seeing someone casually though, if you're no longer attracted to them emotionally or sexually.
@@user-gg8tl5yt7d You do not understand the severity of what passes for "icks", like waiting in line, crying at a funeral, or using an umbrella. If actions like those legitimately make you lose interest, you're the one whose broken. Or more likely IMO, they are actually mate quality "red flags" picked up from others and backed by spurious logic (feigned disgust as an excuse to seek "better")
As the title suggests - I do one of these 'red flags'. I am a love-bomber. In my few past relationships, I always get overwhelmed with my feelings and feel the need to 'pass them on' and 'share' them by buying gifts and going out of my way to treat the other party. I would liken it to being smitten, though the emotion is generally stronger. It's happened every time, but I've never wished or desired to be controlling or manipulative. Fortunately, I am now in a loving and hopefully life-long marriage so this should never be an issue for me again ... I'm just lucky to have found my other half. Great video :)
Thank you. I realized finally that my redflag was I lovebomb and am very possessive. But with deeper introspection of late. It is illuminated the fact that I thought others deserved my love and trust, but because they continually betray my trust and support, that I became possessive, thinking that would help them improve, and be protected from their bad influences. But I also don't fight I also just take flight as soon as I feel unappreciated, I just set them free or set myself free. Lately, I don't even let anyone in unless it's a transactional relationship where a group of people benefits from our involvement, as in, community theatre and other similar projects to aid in progress within various communities. I no longer trust anyone and no longer let anyone into my life. This way I don't get disappointed and I can not disappoint another. If someone or a group, needs me and it feels like a good fit, I will jump into action but nowadays I am way more discerning and less likely to just jump in like a "fool rushes in"...
Sobering insights! Got me thinking about how many times I have unfairly judged red flags as red lights in new people I encounter, as well as the opposite, forgiving many red lights in people I chose to believe in. Most work setting situations.
Sometimes I feel like a manipulative love Bomber but I’m so sad after things get weird. I think really I’m just fearful and have attachment issues, leading to hot and cold and then desperate behavior. It took me months after a relationship to realize I’m not a narcissist, just a good bit traumatized and coping in some unhealthy ways.
Thank you for pointing out the difference between "red flags" and "red lights," amongst other things. A new relationship indeed, is a leap of faith, but it doesn't have to be a reckless one. We can slow down and have a nuanced view of the subject at hand. Thanks again; your videos never disappoint. They raise my respect for the work you do.
I read a book when I was young about some pilot-commandos who were infiltrating a base. The team hacker 'sliced' into the base's automated alarm system and noted that it worked on a flag system. Unusual conditions would raise flags, and if enough were raised, the base would alarm. He went on to explain that an unscheduled opening of the armoury door would raise a lot of flags, but the same at broom closet would raise fewer (but would still raise some). That's how I've always thought of red flags.
Having been raised by a Borderline, I had a completely messed up understanding of what love is and initially chased after Borderlines and Narcissists. So much of this story reminded me of those Borderlines. It wasn't until I became more ok being alone and gained some self-worth, that I found a good relationship that has lasted more than 20 years so far and that keeps getting better.
we are utterly blessed to have another TT video so soon. i hope you’re doing well, Link. as always, this was a thought-provoking watch. i recommend your channel to everyone i know. thank you for articulating and fleshing out these difficult topics.
As someone with a tendency to shower my loved ones with attention and personalized gifts, just to show my love, I often worry it could be seen as a red flag...
@@neolordie Bullshit, nobody does the dishes bad on purpose, this is insane paranoia. Maybe men just aren't as careful about the little things in general? Or are you gonna deny, idk, that men's living spaces are on average way less neat than women's?
Neurodivergence can look like weaponised incompetence. I get accused of it all the time around physical tasks because of my bad balance, but if I ask a typical NT to add 30 numbers together in their head and they fail, somehow I'm not allowed to complain and am being too demanding. Like dude, it's not hard, just picture the list, round up or down and subtract/ add the remainder. You know, do the thing that comes naturally.
Thanks, now I'm analyzing whether my past self was subconsciously abusive without trying or intending to be. I don't understand how showering someone with affection and meaning it can be considered a manipulative bomb, but here we are as a society.
To manipulate means to operate/control (neutral to positive in the context of inanimate objects, frowned upon in the context of livings) We always manipulate for as long as we breathe Just like with breathing, sometimes we do that consciously, sometimes by autopilot Holding ones breath is temporarily and even more concious attempt at control ontop of usual manipulation of how/when the air goes in/out Thank you for opportunity to think about this, suddenly something lifted off and something landed in
well, the key thing is the 'and meaning it' bit. a lovebomber doesn't mean it. outwardly, it appears the same as someone showering their favorite person with affection because they just want to make them smile, but the actual point of it isn't to make them happy as an end in and of itself, it's to make them happy so they're less likely to think you might possibly have bad intentions further down, and so that, if they find themselves considering leaving, they find themselves second-guessing the idea because surely someone who's been so affectionate (at least at some times) can't really be that bad... can they?
I rewatched all your videos recently and now a new video? Your breakdown of hazardous relationships, with people and groups is very eyeopening and helpful, and your video style uplifts them to masterpieces. Thank you!
Your thoroughness of following through with the "after" of the relationship is the kind of effort that demonstrates how much you care about psych education. Keep up the great work, you're doing people a service!
First time I'm here this early. Thank you for these ❤ I still use your 'Grooming Minds' video as the first homework assignment in my Communication Course at university. It always creates interesting conversations in class. Keep it going.
I love these series. The simple and clean yet detailed models, the thought provoking ideas, the concise scripting and dialog… just everything about these videos are wonderful.
This reminds me of how I used to misread some abusers as "co-dependents" or even fragile and vulnerable seeing their insecurity in a glimpse behind the mask at first meeting them and thinking "oh they are insecure like myself!" Well they were insecure but in any way like my SELF. At some point all personality disorders kinda overlap and have similarities but for very different profound reasons and with very different reactions, nowadays I strive to differentiate activity vs passivity. We humans are extremely complex and nuanced.
What a great video. Thank you! I've always rushed into relationships, speeding past the red flags and red lights. The headiness of a new relationship was too seductive for me to take it more slowly. A few years ago, I realized that taking your time - to see what comes to the surface because it will, eventually - is one of the best things you can do in a new relationship. Do not jump into things too deeply, living together, getting engaged/married, etc. Allow the seasons to come and go, as you explore the relationship. Once you're in deep, it's very hard to walk away. Also, please make sure you're healthy enough to be in a relationship. As the narrator said, "We need to scrutinze ourselves." We also need to make sure we're not the red flag or red light in these relationships.
This video came at the perfect time. I don’t care if the internet is spying on me, it dropped this in my lap to help. I just very recently came to the realization that both my boss and my ex boyfriend are essentially occupying the same role on my life: controlling, decisive, ultra-competent (in the ways the developed world appreciate), ultra-charismatic, pillars of their social communities. They both found a way to sink their talons into my insecurities and use them against me: valuing my creativity on one hand but also using it as evidence of my general incompetence surrounding anything linear, appreciating my enthusiasm but condemning me as “too emotional” when my enthusiasm is me advocating for myself, protecting but also infantilizing (how cute you just never remember to lock the door *boop*)…..and the ever closing world that felt like…I’ve been able to extricate myself from one of those relationships….its difficult though when there’s SO much security involved.
This video really got me thinking. I’m a bit of a combination of Isaac and Devon (hopefully not as bad as the latter) in that I have experienced that feeling of an innocent, spontaneous, carefree relationship like Isaac had with Greg and I feel very disappointed and deflated if they suddenly want to slam the brakes on as Isaac did. I don’t want to cut people out of my life unnecessarily, but I also worry about being a mug. As such, it’s interesting to hear the perspective of someone (Isaac) who genuinely wants to take it slow and isn’t just losing interest or whatever. A key difference in my case is that I recognise that something like moving in is a big commitment that presents serious practical obstacles, so I would understand being cautious about that. I’m less understanding about aversion to “putting labels on things”. Being honest with myself, my fear, perhaps wrongly, is that someone who displays the slightest whiff of hesitation is losing interest at best or deliberately taking me for a ride at worst. I feel like, if they really liked me, they would be as willing to throw caution to the wind as I am, and I’ve known people to do exactly that after claiming they were taking it slowly because of [insert reason here]. It probably doesn’t help that I’m a barrister by trade because I reflexively spot inconsistencies in their explanations for things. It also doesn’t help that I have many friends who really did have that whirlwind romance experience with someone they met while they were still fairly young and ended up marrying them. It makes it harder to accept that it’s normal to want to take it slower. Perhaps it’s just the availability heuristic rearing its head. I’ve also had several relationships with people who were previously abused or cheated on and they have a tendency to regard me with suspicion based on what their ex did, which I find really hard to take. I get quizzed about female friends and colleagues, for example. Maybe there is a line between sensible safety precautions and having unfair trust issues, but it’s a fuzzy one. Part of what makes it hard is that some people really swear blind that they are not doing/going to do thing X that you’re worried about and act highly offended that you would even think that of them, then you apologise and they end up actually doing X. I guess the best path is for both partners to be cautious in the early stages and (this is the key point for me) not take their partner’s caution personally.
Barrister!? Red flag!! :8) Yep, it's a complicated picture isn't it. A lot of ambiguity and fuzziness to navigate - which are of course magnified by elements like attraction. I'm sure many of us remember feeling completely pummelled with all the signals we experienced - real and imaginary - from our first loves/crushes.
Love this channel, thanks for the content. I remember this channel helping me get out of very bad mental situation in life and I still return to it from time to time.
The longer i watched this video, the more i realized how many behavior one of my former friend displayed checked the box of abusers. She was smart, humorous (still to this day one of the most funny person i have ever met) and we clicked so hard. But there existed too the silent treatment, the unspoken expectations,… And when i leave her for good, she told me she wanted to be friends again. I admire her and know she can change for the better, but our relationship was such an emotional rollercoaster that i would never want to experience that ever again.
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![respecting beliefs | why we should do no such thing [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r_5yUXjXizQ/mqdefault.jpg)
There’s a proliferation of videos and articles out there produced by homespun ‘relationship gurus’ who label all kinds of perfectly harmless traits and behaviours as ‘red flags’. We’re given a never-ending list of bogus, frivolous reasons to cut people out of our lives, encouraging alienation and isolation. My hope is to encourage a more cautious approach - one that takes appropriate measures to guard against destructive individuals but doesn't throw out good folks like trash.
thank you for this.
🎉 thank you. Nigerian fan
Everyone does something stupid unintentionally.
As a wounded person who has operated from a place of harsh judgement for most of my life, learning these subtleties feels essential. I am just starting to learn, until 5 days ago I lived only in blame and judgement, even when I refused I was, or acted justified when I was caught in it... a hard thing to see at 39 years old, but I could never have started healing without admitting it. I threw a lot of good people away, including on the advice of some of these gurus. It almost feels, looking back, like I just wanted to stay that way because then I never had to take any responsibility for my healing, "they broke me, they are evil" even though the abuse stopped in my life years ago. Thank you ❤
but why 'like trash' dramatization? I would say trust your gut, there is no simple formula.
This is how I've always understood the idea of red flags, not an immediate "get the f* out of here" but just a mental note to pay attention to something that could be a patern
Yes. I've read it on another comment here but I've found that setting boundaries - especially around maybe harmless, maybe "red flag" behaviours with people and seeing if they're respected is one way to navigate in sussing out new people.
I think what people consider red flags now should really be called yellow flags. To me, a red flag should mean to run and it should include things like crime, pushing boundaries, hard drugs, etc
Or if you have some strange things that make you want to run, just don’t flaunt them online so everyone else doesn’t start thinking they also need that same boundary
@@youre764 I think you're describing what the video called "red lights". Red flags are things that _aren't_ immediately bad, but just get you worried that something bad might be coming later.
You're right to call red flags "yellow" in the sense that the best response to them is to slow down and think more (according to the video anyway, which is probably right). So when you first spot a few red flags, that would be a "yellow light" i.e. slow down. But the red flags can stay forever, and that doesn't mean you need to stay slow forever.
@@solarydays I meant if you happen to discover the person has done things like that, not if they do it to you. That’s a valid red flag to me and 99% of all humans, nobody is trying to debate that and my list was not exhaustive
@@solarydays as I said, the red flag you stated was completely valid. As for more serious things (and I’m not victim blaming and saying people should notice if someone is this way, this is just an example if someone is so lenient with red flags and it gets to this point), generally, people can tell from their own observations if someone is addicted to some kind of hard drug. You’ll definitely be able to tell if they’re under the influence and when they’re not, they have distinct traits. If someone is a registered ess offender (which includes things like indecent exposure), their neighbors are required to be alerted, at least where I live. And I never said to brush off red flags, I directly stated that if you have seemingly strange red flags (and by that I meant things like “she breathes weird”), just don’t flaunt them on the internet, you’re not required to date someone you don’t like. And this really isn’t that serious, just my personal opinion. I don’t think I was clear enough, sorry about that, I think you just misunderstood what I’m trying to say
As a neurodivergent person with a tendency to become intensely attached to people, the discourse on “love bombing” has always made me uncomfortable because I know my behavior could be interpreted that way, even though I have no manipulative intent and never feel like the person I’m “love bombing” owes me anything in return. Thank you for talking about the nuances here.
You definitely make people uncomfortable with your "love bombing" though. That's for sure.
Unless you monitor the person you're love bombing for feedback silently when they look uneasy to you and try to do it differently next time.
Neurodivergence is not an excuse/license to make people serve your personal preferences.
I'd urge caution. Unless you can see the actual situations in real life themselves, don't just assume based off of definitions alone, that you know a real life person's behaviors or intentions. We are using the right words, reacting correctly; but as anyone in psychology understands, there's a difference between the presentation of a real world scenario, and the scenario itself. What assumptions are being made here...? Are there biases and personal experiences informing the judgment? "Love bombing", "toxicity", "neurodivergent"...etc. Message sent isn't always message received. Being charitable to the situation is better than to assert or condemn.
"That's for sure" is an inappropriate thing to assert here.
@@noiJadisCailleach While you're correct that neurodivergence is not an excuse for inappropiate behaviour, you don't know anything about this person and it's not your place to use a criticizing, accusatory writing style. From their comment, I can see no indication they think they're vindicated of all responsibility, they simply state appreciation for the nuance in the video. Also, for all we know, the people they get attached to could be perfectly fine or even preferential toward their behaviour.
Same! Sometimes, when that rare person undeerstands me, I am just so thankful. I want them to know how much I appreciate their company. I have a VERY small circle.
It's comforting to believe that we can always see harm coming, but that leads to inevitable victim blaming when one of these "clear signs" slips through the cracks. The truth is that we can't always see things coming. What's important is not having perfect armour, but having the tools to recover and heal when something slips past us.
often when others say "i knew that person was bad" it comes off as "i knew that person was bad, why were you stupid enough to not recognise it" to their victims
Yeah, sometimes this idea that we should have seen it coming is just another version of that New Age sort of Calvinism that says that you "created" everything that happened to you, or unconsciously "mocked it up" or "pulled it in." Just BS. We are not all-powerful. We don't know everything. We miss things. We make mistakes.
Not only that, but people change! If you have a long relationship it's possible for someone to fall into abusive tendencies they didn't have or at least didn't have as prominently before, but that can be enhanced by really harsh circumstances.
@@laiag4854 true, sometimes, tendencies they didn't even know they had. Went through that with my ex-husband. We got together very young, and it was the first major relationship for both of us. We both discovered some major flaws in our personalities. Our relationship did not survive, but our friendship did. Now, several years later and 2 kiddos later, we are thankful to each other. We might not have stayed together, but we helped one another find those flaws and start to fix them. No more trying to change who we were to fit inside the other person's box. We went and found the right persons and Co-parent well. Knowing when to walk away is a valuable skill. We wouldn't have known that if not for eachother.
Red flag culture has been coopted to repackage "choose better men" by redpill Twitter bros
17:12 I love how the abuser blasts off, and Isak turns his head to the camera like: "get a load of this guy."
Absolute cinema
LMAO
Theramin Trees is full of hidden comedy. I was too nervous to say it before, but in spite of all the very serious stuff that goes down in these videos I find it easy to channel certain moments in a different light that makes them weirdly funny. It's my dream to watch or make Steamed Hams But It's TheraminTrees.
It feels like an Office moment lol
The popularization of "Therapy Words" from those that misapply them, has severely blemished their positive effect. I know as slang evolves it can take on new meaning, but losing the impact of the past meaning without good replacements really sucks.
I feel psychology needs to be rewritten from the ground up. It’s far too convoluted and confusing at the moment. It’s like wading through medieval grimoires. Being diagnosed with something is like being told one is possessed by a demon still!
Reminds me of how 'Theory' doesn't mean "well substantiated explanation that is used to make predictions in science" anymore.
@@n0b0d1-rc6dz ehhh, not neccesarily. It’s somewhat weird and vague because humans are somewhat weird and vague. As a psychology nut myself there’s definetly shit and misconceptions and even pretty bad stuff today, but only about as much as any science really. Science, and psychology, isn’t broken, it’s just really hard. In fact I’d say most of psychology’s inaccuracies and misdiagnosis rates etc is simply because it’s relatively new compared to many other science subjects. Environmental science is similarly new
@@WorkFest it does mean that but people didnt pay attention in school and think it doesnt
@@Ozone946 I think I should have specified that it doesn't mean that in _common usage_ ...
I create illusions of connection every time I go to work. I am a nurse. I try to find a point of connection with someone quickly to establish a bit of rapport to start an instant connection with someone other than their presence in the hospital.
I like to make people feel as comfortable as humanly possible during the short time I work with them. I never fully develop that. I will forget their names in a matter of days. While they’re here, they’re one of the centres of my world.
This is a very kind and considerate thing for you to do, and I think it's a prime example of how kindness and empathy is a part of human nature and shows in different ways. ❤
Is that really an illusion so much as it is just ephemeral? Within that context, I think it's reasonable for a connection to be 'real' without being longstanding
I wouldn't call that a lack of connection at all; its brevity doesn't negate the existence of one. For a moment in time, you may very well have been the brightest light in someone's world for doing just that... that means something. don't undersell yourself ❤and respect for what you do. (citations: multiple relatives who've been everything from nurses aid's to the head of a maternity ward)
@@jackuval9362 exactly this. I couldn't think of the word, but exquisite lexical choice.
Nurses rock.
Yeah. Its always important to remember that red flags NEED to be treated as simply signals. Part of a bigger picture. A bonfire and a house fire both put up smoke. Ignoring it outright or treating it as inherent proof of danger are both bad ideas.
Fantastic and underrated analogy!
Yeah, exactly. "Overreacting badly to a question" and "threatening self harm if you leave" can both be called red flags by relationship gurus on Reddit, but while one is an instant dealbreaker, the other could easily have a benign explanation.
Problem is as stated, overused or even used up to equal degree as deal-breaker. Let's be reasonable, when you're trying to live a life, you as individual wouldn't want to waste time into clearly off-putting things even if that's just the facade. You'll get tired from merely in the moment seeing them, thus attentively getting away from them, probably constructed by past trauma or biased tendency, etc, thus why our mind treat them beyond as red-flag. Not because they're threat to us, but also liability and nuisance to us detrimental against our need to preserving and forwarding own selfish interest no matter what, dealbreakers also not really limited to manipulation and violence intended being done to you, can also be avoidance of disabilities/risk that you don't want to subscribe into within the trade-off. People want to have established relationship with high-valued person, but this by itself is also highly intoxicating trait alike perfectionism, not everyone can be positive value that's useful and important for own growth, likewise there won't be such thing as casual 'ships, this can be understood because we're living in modern life that demand efficiency utmost.
A cluster of red flags all at once is a bonfire in itself.
This gives me an idea: Dark Souls, but instead of reaching a bonfire you just commit multiple accounts of arson.
Six Flags: A physical rollercoaster
Red Flags: An emotional rollercoaster
At least six flags is fun
Six Red Flags: Probably both, in more ways than one
Silly!
Hundreds of red flags? Look at the date, oh it is 1st of may!
@@homeopathicfossil-fuels4789😂😂😂
I hate that love bombing is used so often as leverage.
I shower my loved ones in affection for the sake of showering them in affection. It has driven off a few people in the past but when I love someone I just can't help myself. It feels good to comfort and be comforted, and so that's what I do. I don't expect anything for it, but it always comes off as buttering someone up.
I'm unfathomably lucky to have surrounded myself with loved ones who understand this and reciprocate it.
Sometimes you just have to accept it's not a good fit and it's no one's fault really. One man's trash is another's treasure as they say.
I'm the same. My girl is the same too. We were both miserable in our past relationships, and we've been together for 14 years now. I think "love bombing" is a pretty rare thing irl, but it's the perfect clickbait so it garnered way more attention than it should.
So please, don't stop spreading the love! This world really needs it ❤
As someone who gets easily overexcited in social settings (especially around the holidays) I really hate what seems to be the mass vilification, of what, for me, is just normal friendly behavior. Some people can barely be bothered to bring a veggie tray or six pack of cola to a potluck; I'm the sort of person who will bring half a buffet's worth of food with me, on account of I couldn't choose what dish to make (what can I say, I like to cook). There's no need to assume some sort of nasty ulterior motive, but for some reason some people do (I like to think it's cause they are just too bitter to understand why someone would WANT to go through the extra effort, but that's just my pet theory). All in all I'm usually the one getting taken advantage of, seeing as how I am so easily willing to go the extra mile, but I learned pretty early on in life not to over-extend myself for strangers, so it's still a pretty rare occurrence and definitely doesn't happen twice.
See, I think the sudden and inappropriate displays of affection don't necessarily need to be a premeditated attempt at manipulation to be potentially problematic. A lot of people have a tendency to put new people on a pedestal, and if someone you literally just met is suddenly showering you in compliments and gifts and attention, that can be a sign that they're idealizing you and you could be in trouble when you don't live up to their expectations.
It's dumb but humans do it with dogs
Did it with wolves also then when the wolf went back to the pack it got attacked back to its level
Because you give off either praise scold energy
A girl I dated once said that it’s a red flag that I don’t smile whenever I see baby ducks. Yeah, i’m depressed.
I hate people like this. I'm a depressed nihilist who loves dark humor. Most of the women in my life hate that. :/
Wtf that's not a red flag, at most it points to ya not finding cute things appealing, that is literally all :/
@@biohazardbin No way. You're telling me people aren't into depressed nihilists? The nerve of some people! And you say you HATE them for this?? I can't see how you may not be liked by some people, man...!
@chonkychonk
The only red flag is your pfp bro im horrified
Hahahaha felt
It's not the same as mirroring but us autistic folks do something similar in an attempt to relate to people. We don't lie about our experience, but if we see similarities between our experiences and others experiences then we feel compelled to share it as a way of saying "I've been thru similar stuff", either to try and comfort them or make them feel included. For us, it's never a "making it about me" type of thing, but rather a "I know what that's like" thing.
Right, and a lot of people are like "well, but think about if someone did that to you!" yeah, I do, and that's why I'm doing it. That would be great. I actually avoid telling people things because they just keep responding with "wow haha" or "awww that sucks :(" instead of actually engaging in the topic with similar anecdotes or discussion about the wider issue presented. have an actual conversation with me instead of being performative all the time ! >_>
@@reidleblanc3140 Yeah, that's the thing, we like it when people do it to us. When you do it to an autistic person, we perceive it as helpful because of how our minds work. The neurotypical way of expressing empathy/ relating to people is usually perceived by autistic people as being patronising, and as expressing shallow platitudes. That's why most autistic people do it that way, because from our perspective it feels genuine and caring, whereas doing it the neurotypical way feels shallow, dishonest and morally wrong. For an analogy, imagine you shared a really traumatic experience, and the other person replied with "oh well, everything happens for a reason!" or "it is what it is, move on!". That's how neurotypical style empathy statements often come across to autistic people.
Just one of many reasons why the "golden rule" doesn't really work when explaining social concepts to us, because our way of thinking and feeling is just too different to most people and the way we want to be treated and the way others want to be treated are quite different and often opposed to each other. Same thing with direct, clear communication which we like and need, but neurotypicals usually don't, perceiving it as "rude", "pedantic" or even "challenging".
Isn’t mirroring also a form of autistic masking? I find myself mirroring mannerisms and even accents subconsciously. I also would not make claims that I believe to be false, but if I don’t know what to say in response to something without coming across as a complete weirdo, I might passively agree or make broad ambiguous statements in an effort to move the interaction past an uncomfortable topic.
what's annoying about is that i've been taught multiple things that all clash with each other :/. it's "relate to others and show empathy" but "don't do it like that bc we think ur being flat out narcissistic and we won't tell exactly what ur doing wrong. but also don't respond dryly to a convo bc it shows ur not listening and don't actually care" it's literally like what am i supposed to do
i hate saying "that sucks"
or something bc it feels so forced and fake. i also hate getting it back :/. that was actually a problem with my ex bestie bc i felt like she didn't care bc she always responded so dryly. guess its a thing most people do 😭
wait what? that's an autistic trait? i've been doing that a lot my whole life and i like when people relate to me by doing that... i'm not sure if i am autistic tbh
I've been "too" earnest cheerful and open since I was little. People often treat my overly nice and optimistic personality with suspicion. It's a defense reaction from a childhood filled with CPTSD. I may be a codependent people pleaser, but I'm also a peacemaker and a problem solver.
I really do mean the sweet things I say, but also I mentally melt down during conflict, so I avoid it desperately. I'm in therapy, and my friends and family are impressed by my self awareness, but it's still a struggle. I learn so much from your videos. Thanks❤
Same!
Me too!
I thrive on conflict. I think I’m at my best when things are stressful and people are losing their shit.
Slowing down and relinquishing control in everyday situations has been a multi-decade undertaking.
Any success is entirely due to other people’s influence, particularly the missus.
The grass isn’t greener on either side. It’s eye opening to realize you’ve been actively working against your own self interests.
Cheers!
Preach!
Learn to be comfortable with confrontation and you're set
Something I appreciate about this channel is that, despite belonging to a therapist, being on RUclips, and exploring abuse, the videos do not market themselves to the point of contortion. It's not popcorn psychology hinging on why someone who hurt you is a narcissist or otherwise pathologizing people or the viewer to explain the viewer's experiences-it does not need excessive ethos (the creator's credentials, the wholesale invalidation of the abuser or validation of the viewer) or pathos (here's what your feelings mean, or: CLICK HERE TO HAVE ALL YOUR SUFFERING EXPLAINED AND SOLVED GOING FORWARD). So often it feels as if the easily marketable, uncritical and incautious dissemination of therapeutic/psychological ideas arms abusers with the authority of "therapy talk", isolates the abused by encouraging them to act on any prescription of when someone should be cut out, and ultimately works against the appeal of the ideas.
This channel avoids that, being emotionally resonant enough to be appropriate and appealing in its content, but not abusing the authority of its ideas and making sure to constantly maintain thoughtful, critical reasoning. It's a breath of fresh air.
Really appreciate that comment. Cheers!
@@TheraminTrees 🍻I really appreciate your work! This video caught me at a perfect time in the wake of a very relevant breakup, and this is one of the few things I've heard/read/watched that could resonate with the experience.
This is one of those comments i agree so much with but wouldnt know how to put it into the right words myself. The only thing i would add is that despite ideas on the channel being complicated and nuanced they are very well presented in a clear and digestable way through stories, visualisations and logical explenations. Presenting ideas in overly simplified way could be harmful both because it could lead to simply wrong views (ex. red flags = red lights) or leave an impression on the viewer that the idea is so black and white that they would never fall for anything similar (people who believe they could not be manipulated are probably the easiest to)
Yeah the whole narcissist thing is cringe. I'm much more understanding when a lay person uses that word, because they typically just mean "this person is selfish and inconsiderate to the point of hurting others". It becomes a problem when you try to actually link it to a real diagnosis or make it a Type Of Guy, because anyone is capable of acting that way and basically everyone has people who they dehumanize to some degree.
Yes. People will use ideas for their ends. That happens in everything.
This is an exceptionally good video. I had an abusive friend that leveraged red flags, and my own internal shame and scarcity mindset helped her control my behavior. Anytime I ticked a "red flag" box I would get reprimanded, and I would feel like garbage, then avoid it. Then I would hit the next one. The entire time I was confused, like how is any of this abusive? I don't understand!
What I did, I learned, wasn't abusive. "you loved bombed me" no, I was just loving, and maintained it for the entire friendship. "you threatened suicide if I left", no, I earnestly talked about my suicidality and depression, she personalized it. "you stalked me!" No, I simply checked in when you were giving me the silent treatment.
The list can go on about the ways she leveraged "red flags" to abuse me. And I see this, extremely commonly among my generation, that oh so loves thought crime and simple labels.
One of my favorite personal slogans is "love bombing is not about the love, it's about the withdrawal of love"
This is the exact same set of things that happened with me and my previous friend. We bonded so fast and it was like magic, the best friend I ever had...it could never get any better. And then it got abusive, slowly over time. Silent treatment, then he would come back and scream at me for abandoning him if I didn't try to contact him when he was ignoring me, threatening to end himself, then saying that I was threatening the same thing when I never did. He made me feel guilt, shame, and complete confusion.
I cut him off last August, next month will be one year away from him.
Yeah. Unfortunately their insecurity and need for control drives them to weaponize therapy speak. They’ll literally say anything to keep you in a subordinate position to them.
Ha! I know someone just like that. They're still talking about having a stalker ex to people I know despite me 100% cutting off contact. I don't even have social media. Some people just need to be the victim, even when they're the one who got cut off for being abusive.
These are the very people misusing the terms and insisting that their behaviors belong to us. I don’t care who will reprimand me about labeling my former best friend some version of sociopath. If they knew what I knew of the way she treats people and plans it out, they’d understand.
That said, I didn’t call her out for these behaviors per se. I observed for decades, withdrew in stages, and finally used one of her attacks to end it all and walk away for good. I reread my journal entries to remind me that I cared for her but she took advantage of me and treated our friendship like some sick game. I’m glad to be well rid of the flashing red flag that I thought was a friend.
@@StudlyFudd13 I went through something similar, though she never screamed at me for leaving. We would hit periods of intense connection, I would get too close and then she'd withdraw. Not with a fight or something, but grow quiet. I let her do her thing and over time, she picked it up again and I made sure I was welcoming. I made sure not to depend on her too much, as she was flakey with appointments and not hold it too much against her when she flaked out.
This changed when I told her that I trusted her. That was when the abusive tactics started, I imagine the thought pattern was something like 'since she isnt gonna leave, I am going to be honest with her' and we know what we say about honesty without tact. That is just cruelty.
And she flipped the fuck out when I refused her cruelty. When I wanted to be treated with kindness and grace. And no, I didnt 'deserve' that because she was right, I was wrong and I needed to work on my....
Dylectia, PTSD, CPTSD and autism to comform to the standard she was setting for me.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.
Yeah. No.
Pointing her behavior out led to more explosive rage and she treated me like I was an entitled child instead of an adult with disabilities. Her monologue ended with an 'I HOPE YOUR THERAPIST SHINES SOME LIGHT ON THIS' and my therapist bursting into laughter by the phrase alone. She hoped another authority would punish me for rejecting the 'help' from her.
It was wild.
It’s been frustrating seeing Red Flag spammed across the internet like a witch hunt. People jumping on a trend for clicks and attention, even if they have to spread misinformation and distrust to do it. Your level-headed and well-worded assessments always bring me so much satisfaction.
The double binds video is a great video on witch hunter behavior.
I've seen these clout hunters use Kafka traps when dealing with people who are accused with things like grooming even if the evidence is clear that it's not their intention, they are trapped in these "no win arguments."
It's like watching a murder, it bothers me how shameless those clout chasers are.
The double binds video was extremely helpful.
Yeah I agree. I like icks though. I think its funny when a woman makes a video about how theyre grossed out by how someone treads water
wake up babe, theramintrees dropped another banger.
Wide awake, even though it's 2 o'clock at night and I have to get up early! 🙈
Blessed
he'll be fired from the kitchen if he keeps doing that
Perfect excuse for a study break
@@Analysis_Paralysis Same
I appreciate this video a whole lot as an "AuDHDer" because that sort of pop psychology ostracizes neurodivergent people even more than they already are. Prescriptive red flags just encourage even more Othering. While I may not always be compatible with other people, it's one thing for them to set boundaries between me and them, it's a whole other thing when they treat me like a monster because I missed some of their unspoken rules.
THIS 100% !!! Thank you for sharing your expression.
From a learning perspective, it seems like a classification problem. We want to remove the bad actors, but not at the cost of throwing out every relationship.
JUSTIN
Wait no just someone with the profile picture ahhhh
Thanks for putting it that way. Now I can objectively see that false positives and false negatives are inevitable instead of my personal failing in not being dumb/oblivious
I feel like there is also a problem of knowing the threshold of when somebody is a bad actor. Internet dating advice is full of red and green flags but no human is perfect so knowing what imperfections are acceptable becomes complicated, and how do you even know if your own expectations are healthy? I think if internet dating advice was followed to the max, most people would never be in relationships at all. Not enough people are perfect enough.
@@roymarshall_ There is a great deal of easy profit to be made with lonely people desparate to fill a void.
The less human needs someone has met, the more succeptible they are to advertisers.
Algorithms governing what advice gets to be heard likely have figured that out.
Most brands have abusive relationships with thier customers, and it is getting worse a lot in our current time.
just wanna say, thank you for the gay representation without drawing any attention to it.
so often people are afraid to paint any lgbt people negatively due to it having a knock on effect (i've legit been dm'd with that take away by a trans friend regarding the recent mr beast drama)
or romanticising them as being far more caring due to the added hardship of being oppressed.
but in actuality we're no different from anybody else, you get manipulators all the same and you get people far too on gaurd or recklessly attatched. so having a video describe a gay mans experiences the exact same as a straight man or a woman is refreshing. just allows you to fully empathise with them as a person instead of being asked to look through a pointless perspective which obscures it.
UA flag and Sonic? Pff
this must be the funniest pfp I've ever seen
My cousin works 80 hour weeks to find cures for understudied diseases. My former best friend is a meth addict who tried to kill her last girlfriend on multiple occasions. Both of them are trans. It's almost like we're just people
being chronically oppressed breeds indifference and hatred, not the opposite.
@@clamhammer2463 i'm honestly surprised this is the first reply actually about my comment lol
“When you see everything through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags”
Wanda from Bojack Horseman
The author actually made a callback to this wonderful line in the end!
So that's where that quote comes from.
@@bodinian yeah, one of the many amazing quotes of the show, would suggest it but it gets really really dark the more you go through. I do not suggest it to people that are mentally in a dark place, but its one of the best shows out there
After an intensely abusive relationship, I've come to realize I'm not ready to be in one. No matter to whom I talk to with romantic intent, I have this deep-seated fear inside me of "What if she's going to be abusive too?". I see even small signs as potential red flags and just leave.
Even if she would have turned out not to be abusive, she'd deserve a better partner than I can be right now. Maybe in the future I'll have healed enough to give love a second chance. Maybe not.
You're just ruminating. You need to go out more and the world. See what interests you. Get into new hobbies if you have to.
As someone who was in the same position: when you meet the right one it'll be obvious you won't be abused again.
You're so used to the idea of an abuser that you can't imagine a truly virtuous person. But they do exist. We just forget, became jaded and pessimistic because we normalised the abusers behaviour as "everyone will have these imperfections". But it isn't true. It's actually really easy not being abusive.
@@neotronextremCan you help me understand if I'm being abused real quick? I'm 99% sure, but I see things like this and get really really sad because I love my abuser still and she has a lot of past trauma I'm pretty sure isn't fake. I can buy she does the hurtful stuff out of brokenness and mental illness, except I still don't deserve that. I've offered her to just step out take a break from marriage to heal, but she doesn't want to work on the relationship at all so divorce is continuing as scheduled.
She love bombed while we dated. Cold harsh rejections, rolling of the eyes, etc with sex after first 2 or 3 weeks into marriage. Excuse was past "sexual trauma" from abusive partners except she was totally hyper sexual when dating and during honeymoon..
Cried whenever we had relationship talks about how this/that hurts me, or if we could work on improving this/that. Tears turned to anger and guilt/shaming me for communicating. Would do this weird "stop bottling it up and communicate more" while I would say I'm literally doing that now, and if you want me to communicate more like I'm trying to do stop getting angry every time I do which only encourages me to communicate less.
She got warm again when we started to conceive baby. After getting pregnant turned into an awful person. Was badly morning sick, but didn't listen to me, to doctor's, put me down constantly, was extremely demanding of all my attention etc. Manipulated me into buying a van, then leaves me with said van plots divorce, has BIL threaten me, posts on FB pictures of herself tagging me with baby bump emotionally blackmailed me. Projects all the abuse onto me, denies all responsibility or knowledge of BIL threats, though I saw messages of her laughing about my family being scared I'd get hurt.
She coldly hangs up when I'm in the ER very depressed due to her abuse. When we reconcile she manipulates me into buying new wedding ring and taking her on extravagant anniversary trips. Changes baby name to hurt me. Can't offer good explanation to why eventually changes it back.
Never really changed herself. Never helped with bills. Terrible housekeeper. Attempts suicide, uses sex and shame to get me not to talk about it. Family gaslights me to not take the suicide seriously. Guilts me for talking about out marriage with family. Leaves me again and kidnaps our baby. Falsely alleges emotional/verbal abuse to her doctor. I file divorce after she ignores my begging to see/hear my son. She then falsely alleges domestic violence physical assault when she tries to forcibly move back in with me. Tries to get me falsely arrested (cops saw exculpatory evidence proving she lied).
Still guilting me wanting to do family and movies nights to co-parent well with our son after I say no I don't feel safe with her any more. Like I'm being selfish not doing what's best for our child to have him see us "get along". She made him miss doctor appointments and still has not apologized or owned up.
Now I feel bad because I don't know if she actually loved me, or if she's always just had bad motives. Interspersed are good times, she's done kind things for me. Painted me sweet gifts, rubbed my back, of course we have shared close intimate time together. Bonded watching movies and shows. Played games together. She says nice things most of the time. Acts supportive. Has acted remorseful in the past but I don't know if that was just a tactic to get back in good graces so she could exploit me more. No idea.
Is she just hurt and does this stuff defensively? I don't get it. I've racked my brains over how it could possibly be my fault. The 1st time she abandoned me was after a phone call where she had, what I believe, was a fake panic attack. After I supportively calmed her down I felt hurt, played with, and told her directly I needed to know where she stood on our marriage and if she was coming home or staying with parents to let me know so I could stop feeling jerked around and support her how she needed. That was construed as me "yelling at her" because I was crying a bit and emotional.
The 2nd abandonment I still don't know what set her off. At first I thought it was me "overreacting" because she triggered my abandonment trauma SHE GAVE ME when she canceled plans to come home on time with our son which canceled plans I had with our son. I communicated my hurt, was very clear, but also direct and understandably harsh where she got defensive. Turns out that was NOT why she refused to return home, she plotted that before there was any clear argument. I can only speculate it was maybe because of a phone call where she wanted to get on weight loss drugs and I shot her down insurance wasn't going to cover it because she isn't diabetic we don't have $1,000/mo for that, it wouldn't be a long term solution any way, but please go talk with your OB/GYN and see options I want you to feel better. She's super insecure and I felt like I was maybe too critical in that? No idea.
Sorry that was way too long of a story. I still struggle thinking maybe I didn't support her right. How could she not know I love her unconditionally when I stood by her after her suicide attempt and her disclosure of intrusive sexual thoughts towards our baby? Like, I struggle really hard to see how it's my fault but I know I was stressed and we were tight on cash in this economy. I know it was hard for her just like me. I wish she was better 🙏💔
@@LilJbm1 Hey, I'm not who you responded to, but I also don't think they read that wall so I'll take over for a sec.
Get your kid and get out. You're trying to cover for your abuser way too much. The fact you're questioning it means you're not sitting right with it.
If your child wants an emotional relationship with your partner when they're old enough to understand, let them have it, but imho distance yourself from this person before more is inflicted on you. You've done enough and staying still in this situation is only going to damage your child's emotional well-being too. Run.
Beautifully real
at a time where self help and psychological content is being co-opted by malicious actors who cater their harmful content to dissected people, this channel is massive relief. always high quality and congruent with current academic work on related subjects.
Dissected? What happened to them 😢 was it post or pre mortem?
@horstneitzche this isn't reddit bro
Something I find frustrating about the language we use around "abusers" and their "tactics" is that although it correctly describes the action and the response that action is intended to evoke, it sort of paints a picture where abusers are like... a discrete group of malevolent people who intentionally sit down and plot how they will ensnare and manipulate their victims which is ... almost never the case.
Victims of abuse are already primed to view the world as dangerous and hostile because of how trauma rewires the nervous system, so it makes complete sense to me that as a traumatized person hearing the way people talk about abuse, it makes sense to believe that these people are "out to hurt you" or "just narcissists" or whatever, but that isn't exactly helpful and I feel that it relinquishes a lot of our own agency going forward.
The reality is that the vast majority of abusers aren't setting out to ensnare and manipulate you, they're just clueless insufferable people (likely victims of something themselves) who have no real self-awareness, acting from their own desperation and hanging out with the only people who will put up with them. The thing is, anyone with a functioning nervous system will notice bad behaviour and stop putting up with them long before there's any kind of attachment. By healing your own nervous system, it's possible to become one of these people that lets attachment develop slowly and is put off by bad behaviour long before it has a chance to become abuse. It doesn't matter who you attract, it matters who you're attracted to in return.
I think the picture of the manipulative evil genius abuser pulling the strings of a helpless innocent not only takes agency away from someone who is trying to heal and primes us to see ourselves as perpetually victimized, but it also sort of... separates us from them in a way that makes it psychologically advantageous to see ourselves as the victim - because victims aren't perpetrators. People like to believe that we are incapable of harm, and in feeling like we are always the victim we get to also be that clueless insufferable person who doesn't see the impact of their actions on others, and anyone who puts up with us in this state is in for similar treatment.
I think this is a dangerous myth. Abuse is more or less always intentional. The abuser is seeking to get as much as they can from a relationship and give aw little back as possible. That's the crux of abusive relationships.
People might do this because they're preoccupied with their own suffering. That suffering might even be severe or genuine. But not everyone who suffers turns to abuse as a solution.
As weird as it might sound to you, yes, there really are people out there who are cruelly planning how to take as much as they can from the world and other people. And they aren't uncommon, either. It's the core of the dark tetrad, which makes up a significant amount of the population.
Abusive people are really only able to form relationships with vulnerable people. People who have been abused are often more vulnerable to abuse.
People who are simply oblivious can be corrected and will be sorry for hurting others. Abusers aren't open to serious correction, because the abuse in the relationship is the point for them.
They don't view other people as human beings. They view us as objects to be used for their own gain. That's where abuse comes from. If they aren't doing that, they aren't abusers.
@@lucyferos205 Very strongly disagree with this on like a personal experience of myself and others level but I'd love to see a study supporting it if you've got one handy. Prepared to be convinced.
Good grief does your third sentence describe me to a tee. Talk about depressing realisation…
@@lucyferos205 To quote you, I think *this* is a dangerous myth, and frankly I'm very put off by the way you've written this comment because the phrasing is very reminiscent of what I hear from folks set on demonizing certain mental health disorders. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but I am letting you know that you've worded this in a way that's quite similar.
Your description is of a fairy tale villain. Real life is rarely so black and white. While some people like this may exist, they are NOT the majority whatsoever.
People who are oblivious often *can't* be corrected so easily, but it isn't because they secretly know what they're doing and are doing it purposefully. It's quite simple, really: humans do not like to be wrong, and will often rationalize their behavior even when they have decisively screwed up so they don't have to feel guilty about it. Abusers usually feel completely justified in their actions because of their own flawed perception of reality.
Abusers are most often people who have trauma and mental illness themselves, and are dealing with it in maladaptive ways. Someone who threatens suicide to get their partner to stay, for example, is unquestionably abusive; but they likely aren't intentionally and maliciously trying to hurt their partner for funsies, they're dealing with a fear of abandonment and lashing out unhealthily as a result.
"They don't view other people as human beings. They view us as objects to be used for their own gain. That's where abuse comes from. If they aren't doing that, they aren't abusers." This is false. The mindset of an abuser is not the defining feature. The behaviors are.
To second the other comment, I'd love to see a study if you have one, because your argument goes against the general scientific consensus. I get that it's easier to think of abusers as evil, irredeemable monsters, but that doesn't actually help anyone. In doing this, you achieve two things: 1, you write off any possibility of rehabilitation and growth, and 2, you create a framework that allows many abusers to continue by thinking "well, I'm not like THAT, so I'm all good."
The fact is that mental health and relationships are complex and nuanced things, and while abuse is absolutely terrible, we need to address the reality of it in order to make change, not make up some boogeyman of pure evil and shadows and pretend that's the reason people hurt others.
Like others have said, it's much more useful to categorize abusers by their actions and consequences than their motive. If you define abusers as Evil Villains then anyone who has a half-believable excuse about how they had good intentions will cause you to be vulnerable to abuse. On one hand you'll develop a healthy paranoia about strangers, but on the other hand you'll be vulnerable to something like an alcoholic father who only mistakenly beats his children while drunk, and always means well with a heart of gold.
The way you switch between straight and gay relationships is so validating. It's cold and matter of fact, not special or different in any way, just "Isak and greg".
It's the inclusion without distinction that feels like a relief. I appreciate it too
Thanks for pointing out how ridiculous it is to call having the wrong flavor of cell phone a red flag
If their phone changes every month, I'm not impressed. Otherwise, I really don't care, even if I detest Apple products.
@@DarkVeghetta hell, if their phone _does_ change every month, that's at least a yellow flag imho
@@rhael42 At the very least because they might be clumsy af lol
Love when I get these videos at randomest of times
truly
Same, it's rare but much appreciated treat!
A year ago today, my father died. A cruel, abusive narcissist finally dead. I was his favorite toy and at the same time the most disgusting person to exist to him. Silent treatments happened for reasons I couldn't understand, his abuse of the sexual variety at times violent and others a sick mockery of proving his "love" for me. I've never had a successful relationship with men because of him. Because while I dated terrible men, he continued to tell me that my misfortunes were my fault, and I deserved it all, all the while he was sexually abusing me. He called me a monster and a manipulator and made me question my sanity, calling me a narcissist and an abuser toward the end of his life, right after begging my forgiveness for his abuse. Now I spiral, unsure of who I am and if I'm truly the monster, and I avoid relationships of any kind with anyone.
I'm so, so sorry you had to go through that. Him trying to turn things around right when he was about to die sounds terrifying, honestly.
I don't know what your life or relationships look like, but I can tell you're here. You're sharing your experiences and being honest about it. I can tell you're listening and being open, and so, that is the most important thing right now. That's the first step of healing.
You're definitely not the monster. But it makes sense to struggle with that feeling after so much abuse. Please don't give up on yourself. You matter.
The victim always crosses to become the abuser at some point. Gradually or dramatically.
For now, what you need to do is sit down and analyze yourself how you are one or the other. You can do this by yourself or with help.
I have definitely been an abused. But i am willing to admit i have definitely become an abuser at some point too. Now that i am wiser, i catch myself before i "choose" to act like an abuser to not let it happen. This process takes a very, very, very long time.
You’re not a monster fax_machine
There is a lot to say and I think most other people will say the more, obvious stuff... But I think you should hear the obscure but deeply helpful stuff too.
Sexual activity... Is understood by the body as physical affection... The reason it's so wrong for incestuous things to take place, is precisely because of what you're going through. There's a lot of guilt, shame and confusion. Your body would have felt both loved and abused... Although there IS a part of you, that would have felt loved because of it. It's so badly manipulative, because you will come across people who will unintentionally shame the part of you that felt at least some shred of love that way!
I'm not saying that it was a huge or small part of you. I'm not saying that you didn't hate it and him for it either... All I'm trying to point out, is that the confusion you're expressing is very commonly associated with the sexual side of things. I've seen it more than I'd like to admit. I'm NOT saying that what your father did was loving by any measure, just to be clear! I'm just wanting to shine a light on a dynamic that is very often handled in a way that impedes victims from fully understanding themselves and then healing.
I'd recommend trying or looking up a therapy called "IFS" (Internal Family System). You can learn how to do it alone too, so you don't actually have to see a therapist. Seeing a trained therapist would be good though (if you can), just because they can sometimes notice "parts" of you that you might not. I'm recommending IFS because it can really help to separate and untangle complex emotional entanglements.
I hope you understand what I'm saying and don't think I'm making any kind's of excuses for your father or blaming you for a shred of it. I hope you find your path to peace and healing. 😔
I feel like a good way to detect bad people is to see how they respond to being told "no"/boundary setting and disagreement. That's how Devon showed his true colors in the story.
To add to that, how they respond to “can you be wrong?” / “Is it possible for you to make a genuine mistake that is completely your fault?”
No to me makes me so happy to hear.
1. The person isn’t a pushover
2. They feel comfortable around me to express a negative emotion or something they disagree with healthily
3. They have autonomy and don’t just simply agree.
statements like these worry me though because there is a person in our frien groups that has been enforcing his boundaries/saying no more often lately, but doing so in quite a harsh/ sudden/ unexpected way, like saying it very firmly in a way that tends to make everyone kind of silent and uncomfortable for a long time, and over things that oftentimes noone could reasonably know of ahead of time, or sometimes things that i do not feel are justified, or dont seem like an actual boundary, and moreso just- something that they personally cant deal with very well emotionally, but isnt anyone's fault (such as telling me off and getting offended on my friends behalf for something i did, that my friend themselves said they were not bothered by in the slightest, or being very clingy/nervous over friends doing things without them)
I thought at first that i was just being sensitive and that i shouldnt say anything because of statements like these because who am i to tell someone how to enforce their boundaries? But it kept happening to other people as well, who were also very taken aback and quite uncomfortable by the way they acted. Talking to this person often feels kind of tense and a bit like walking on egg shells, because i worry that any second they may suddenly out of nowhere coldy and firmly tell us not to do something that to us could be completely innocuous.
So i dont know we're not being unreasonable right?? I dont think he is a bad person but i feel like if there is something you arent comfortable with people doing, that they couldnt know would be something that affects you so strongly, you should match the energy and ask a bit more gently, no? At least thats what i would do if someone accidentally made me uncomfortable, because how could they know? Im not just gonna harshly confront them and call them out out of nowhere for something they could not possibly know would affect me so badly. PLUS i feel like some stuff just is not reasonable to expect of others to do, and is something you need to work on yourself no? Like i handle rejection badly, but that doesnt mean i should call out people for rejecting me, it means i should work on myself because my self esteem is too poor and i am too sensitive, and need to get batter at handling this.
@@scribblecloud I get that. You telling them how their behavior is effecting you and others would itself be boundary setting and I certainly wasn't trying to say that setting boundaries was itself bad. That would be contradicting myself.
I don't know this person but they sound exactly like the kind of person that may not respond well to being the one having boundaries set against them. They've decided they're entitled to more social control than they actually are.
They also sound like someone who expects other people to *not* care about his own boundaries, so he feels like has to be overly harsh in order to be listened to, someone who's been brought to their breaking point in their own silence.
I guess you do raise a good point on the question "What boundaries are people actually entitled to set?" What do you "own" as your personal space? There are people out their that think they own their partner and that someone else talking to them is stepping on "their" boundaries.
If I want a door or window closed in the living room because it's letting in cold air, do I get to demand people close it? Do people living in an apartment with me who aren't paying for the apartment get to demand that I do chores? Personally, I feel like the answer to these questions is no but the overall topic is complicated.
Someone could conceivably ask for boundaries they have no right to ask for and than write people off as bad if they don't listen.
I feel like oftentimes, these things should be discussed rather than declared and set in stone.
The follow-up to my statement by another comment is that you can judge someone by how they react to being told their wrong. Using this as an example, that doesn't mean a good person says they're wrong when someone tells them they're wrong. It means they are generally someone who is able to consider the possibility they may be wrong.
I think the spirit of my original statement is that decent people are open to listening to others, even if they are wrong, not that you're a bad person if you don't give in to someone making demands and calling them boundaries. Maybe some boundaries really are immovable, maybe some should be respected just because you respect the relationship you have with another person. It's a topic I certainly don't have all the answers to though, I'm navigating it myself.
It's also worth noting that, as you yourself pointed out, boundary setting doesn't have to be harsh. Perhaps you could inform this person of the effect they're having on others and reassure them that they don't need to be so harsh to get others to listen to them, and ask them to be a bit gentler.
@@scribblecloud I know I already left you a TED talk of a comment but to put my original criteria another way; "Do they listen to other people's needs?"
You're not ignoring someone's needs by asking them to be more gentle. You're not even invalidating their boundaries. You're just putting forward your own.
Reminder for myself: Red flag means not to run, but to PAY ATTENTION.
and also, make sure youre not just setting up strikes against your personal preference with these "red flags". Like he said in the beginning.
You're one of the only persons who talks about modern social issues in such a magnificently well thought out way. Which is not only getting harder but also being supressed by a growing culture of emotionaly centered non sequiturs. Your work is much needed in your time and for that I thank you. ❤
I see a lot of myself in the "rush to commit" - growing up isolated gave me intense FOMO that made me feel like I had to "make up for lost time" with other people. Another part of me feels like if I don't rush in and immediately show passionate interest, I'm going to be passed on. That's probably an abandonment issue, I have reactive attachment disorder and I feel like I need to learn the proper expectations and timelines of relationships to repair that. This video gave me pause to reflect, thank you for explaining these traits so concisely.
Iconic Lain and Rei profile + a personal story I fully relate to
@@solarydayswhat do you mean by “trying to form the type of relationships you missed out on as a kid”? What type of relationships are those, how are they different from adult relationships? I feel like I do that too, but I’m not sure if I fully understand what that means
I think it is important for people to simply set healthy boundaries in all of their relationships. It is tough to stand firm on your boundaries sometimes though.
I agree. People who truly care about you will respect your boundaries. If your boundaries make someone annoyed or angry, that's their problem and they can get lost if they don't like them. It's hard learning to say "no" when you've said "yes" most of your life, but each "no" gets easier the more you do it.
@@LimewirePirateand it’s even harder to relearn how to say “yes” again when you’ve fully learned how to say “no”.
Spent my 20’s saying yes.
My 30’s learning to say no.
Now mid-40’s and realized I need a healthy split 60/40 yes/no.
@@Stolat79 If you don't mind some constructive criticism, I'd like to suggest, that it's not really about yes or no ratio's. With all the respect possible... I think most people don't actually see the person in front of them. At times, we even struggle to really know and see ourselves too. People aren't made of stone. We change and every single day, is a new day. Maybe it's a yes one day and a no the next... Usually because of the surrounding circumstances.
I think the unfortunate truth is, that it's not just about "bad" or "good" labels or "flags" that we give people or isolated actions. It's about the circumstances and dynamic that we find it all within. That is very hard to fully see and understand, so maybe just take more time to think about what the current circumstances are for you and your partner, with each yes and no? That's my advice, for what it's worth... 😊
“Simply”
There are also many people with unhealthy unempathetic rigid boundaries who will not give an inch for anyone
1:38 I feel called out. I was prejudiced against people who were listening to rap music until I asked myself why and came back empty.
Because a great deal of it glorifies an awful culture in a very literal way to a degree other music just doesn't. Some rapper just got murdered recently and his most famous song was just him listing and mocking every single person who didn't like him who had been murdered up to that point.
"Not all rap is like that" I'm speaking about the middle of the normal distribution.
There are good reasons to dislike rap. And there is a reason why quite frequently, at least in the US, the worst people you will ever meet always happen to listen to rap. And no because I know people will go with the easy comebacks: this has nothing to do with race. All the biggest white assholes I've known... listened to rap. It's not a random coincidence.
Well, give yourself a pat on the back. I am constantly appalled by just how many of those who say they "embrace science and reason" can't manage to do that.
I mean, I can actually think of a list of reasons why 😂
@@tyler.walker I'd like to hear said list
I was in the same boat until I realized the thing I hated (the assumption that you only hate something through lack of understanding with the cure being more exposure) is not exclusive to rap enjoyers.
The "zabaglione effect" reminds me of this one time when I was working at Raising Cane's Chicken Fingers, when we had a mandatory meeting for everyone who worked there. The general manager decided to ask everyone, "What is your favorite Disney movie?" for no legitimate reason (just an unnecessary "icebreaker"). Well, the first 5 or so people all said "Mulan". Sure, that movie's okay, but there's no way it's everyone's favorite. It was obvious that no one wanted to answer honestly.
This video has given me a lot to think about in terms of my marriage. That line “imagine their behavior is never going to change…” sticks with me.
I think I disagree with this method. I guess I understand where this rule of thumb comes from but in the case of long term relationships, is it really smart to think of the other party as unchanging ? We constantly change and neglecting that seems unhelpful to me.
@@user-dj9du6or1n I think the best way to look at it is "If they never change from this, would that be permissible?" And if not, end things. And then when they inevitably do change, apply the same system of judgement. It keeps you and your partners on your toes being your best and not decaying.
i think this process of observing and setting boundaries as necessary is something so important that everyone needs to learn how to do
When people say "red flag" these days, it often means they're so full of themselves and their world is so filled with narcissistic nonsense that there's no room left for anything different, unfamiliar, or challenging; so they simply dismiss things that dont perfectly align with their narrow perspective. Love this channel! quality content, no BS!
I think another dimension to this is the world isn't as simple as two categories of people: bad and good. We're all on a spectrum and behavior depends on the circumstances as well. My relative might berate me when they are in a bad mood, but the relationship might still be worth it in the end to maintain despite their flaws. I'm sure we can all think of examples of edgecases like this in our lives. It just gets so much more complicated when covert tactics are used, so it's up to you to both predict how a person will actually behave in a relationship and then to know if it's worth it to you. It's really tough.
i feel like a lot of "red flag focused" mindsets become self-fulfilling. "oh he doenst treat women right overall, i can tell bc _____. I hate men who don't treat women right" then they don't like him when he didn't really do anything and he understandably doesn't like being around them, thus 'affirming' her beliefs in herself and her red flag spotting
you gotta be a real strong individual to spot negative patterns in a group and yet refrain from over-presumption
A trait I find to be a red flag that seems to go unregarded by a lot of these types of people is when they wait egregiously long times to bring up problems with you.
I had someone I thought I got along really well with wait a *YEAR* to bring up that I did some things that made them uncomfortable, and when I tried asking for specifics, they couldn't provide any. Being an addict of diplomacy I asked them to bring this stuff to my attention sooner.
Then, a few months later, I realized I didn't relate to any of the people in their friend circle, and felt uncomfortable there myself because of some of their behaviors and negging. So I left.
@@solarydays It's possible, but I consider it scummy regardless.
I still associate with the person through friends but eh
@@solarydays I'm sorry, but no, everyone is owed honesty to some degree. It's not a matter of whether or not they're a casual acquaintance.
If your reason is petty and personal then just own it. Otherwise you lock yourself into a myopic worldview where you place your personal opinion on a pedestal of morality.
If I did something that upsets someone I fully expect them to make their discomfort clear so I can actually address it. I'm not a mind reader, nor is anyone else, and it's unhinged to expect people to be.
@@solarydays I should clarify that this person and I were alone together, so it's not like there was anyone outside to peer-pressure them into silence.
They could've easily told me to ease up like they did with other things, and I respected that.
@@solarydays Gamer
The only time I hung out with this person and I made them uncomfortable was explicitly when we were alone together.
If what I did was THAT bad that this person was uncomfortable, they should've been able to remember it after a goddamn year.
And this person let me into their circle of friends, even if I didn't fully integrate
The onus is on the person with the goddamn problem to bring it up, not me to be a fucking mind reader
It's really not rocket science
It's being a mature adult, NOT A TEENAGER
@@solarydays It's people like you that turn everyone into socially inept babies incapable of establishing any sort of healthy boundaries with people, who create a web of lies and misunderstandings that only lead to more pain and suffering.
The problem has always been how “red flags” are often conflated with “behaviours differing from the norm”, which ends up filtering out a lot of people with good reasons to differ, like neurodivergence. I have pretty severe social anxiety, and it’s never felt great how large the overlap is between my more extreme symptoms and common “red flags”. Mirroring, inconsistency, lack of outward emotion and more are all things I cannot easily stop myself from doing, and are commonly seen as worrisome traits. You can imagine how this spirals with the anxiety itself into me trying desperately to mask these traits, which may help outwardly but does me absolutely no favours internally, mostly just making the anxiety worse. The type of person that always looks for the most unfavourable possible interpretations is unfortunately rather common online, and it’s a mindset that seems to be spreading. We always, always need to go in depth when it comes to other people. Surface level behaviours are almost never enough to gauge another person’s motivations. Be cautious of course, but for the love of god we don’t need to be jumping at every tiny thing.
The worst outcome is when these things start becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. I’ve had a few friendships where I worried about not showing emotions enough, and since just exaggerating my honest emotions isn’t an option, I tried to work around the issue by being much more emotional in ways I didn’t actually internally feel. This successfully bypassed the anxiety, since it dodged the worry of being too open with my feelings, but it was also genuine and deliberate manipulation. It wasn’t malicious by any means, but it also wasn’t healthy for either party. And this kind of manipulative behaviour is slowly growing into a pattern. I have no interest in controlling other people in the way that may be dangerous here, but becoming so accustomed to false and manipulative relationships isn’t exactly something I want to happen. And that process has stemmed directly from this paranoia about people being manipulative.
I've had the Is An Only Child 'red flag' put upon me on day one joining a new work placement, from what later became apparent was the main clique of about 80% of the staff. The real red flag to me was the childish, group thinking, racist, misogynistic behaviour from them which I observed over the next few days to which I removed myself from the system.
Misogyny is a meaningless word.
i don't think i've ever been this early to a video before but it genuinely jumpscared me to see another upload so soon after the cluster B parent video
perfect timing too -- the past year or so has been really bad for me due to an abusive relationship, and i've been trying my hardest to not let myself be mistreated like that again. rewatching your stuff over and over, and internalizing the messages that there's nothing inherently "wrong" or "abusable" about me, has helped me get past everything in a healthier way
Man dating is so complicated. I have been single all my life because I have ASD and trying to keep track of healthy behaviors and unhealthy behaviors is just overwhelming, especially in a world where people are so willing to misconstrue your behaviors. I’m glad I have people like Trees who can boil it down.
As a heavily neurodivergent person who struggles with social interaction, I'm always very confused and unsure about what's happening in my relationships with people. This video leads me to worry if I'm accidentally, or pershaps subconsciously feeding into these abusive behaviors
I relate to Isak's story so much. It's so hard to pull back and evaluate each sign for what it may be or is - and there's always the question of if you've made the right or wrong call. I'm still evaluating this now and worrying if I've made the right choices or not, but . . . if I trust my gut and go with the knowledge that I was given, and don't overanalyze, then I absolutely feel like I made the right calls.
I’m so so so glad you didn’t leave out “having the wrong phone” from today’s bogus red flag list.
I have had android phones for ~8-10yrs because they’re cheaper and I don’t care, and people have legitimately shamed me for this. Even close friends. Got an iPhone recently simply because my phone broke and there was a deal on iPhone 14s.. people congratulated me.
It’s very very disconcerting. Lol
For me it's the opposite. I immediately think less of someone when I learn they use Apple products. I guess that just shows I'm part of the lower class.
Man, just the information covered within TheraminTrees videos is enough to recommend it to others, it's always of such high-quality. But then couple that with a distinct, engaging, consistent animation style and a soothingly deep, matter-of-fact voice?! Just brilliant.
I'm curious how conscious these bad actors behave in their destructive behavior. Can you be an abuser without knowing it at all? How would one gauge themselves? Would love your insight on that.
I think there's a mix. I'd say we all behave in unthinking reflex ways sometimes - bad actors are no exception. Where we see someone confining misbehaviour behind closed doors, hiding/lying about it, behaving like a totally different person in 'polite company', we can say there's self-awareness. Many targets also recognise a familiar 'smirk' in their bad actors when they're stirring trouble. So some deliberate, some not.
Some forms of abuse are currently excused by society, so those people are often empowered thinking they're completely in the right no matter if they're hurting people. What comes to mind immediately are the "people pleasers" who never say what's wrong, give silent treatment, get angry at people for not guessing the problem, ghost people, etc. people with cluster B disorders frequently do the same things. if they're diagnosed, they think it gives them a free pass. But most abusers have mental illness at the root of their abuse... doesn't make it any better... they can heal and grow and stop hurting others.
My ex wife was mentally ill and raised wrong, she genuinely thought her behavior was always justified. Her ego couldn't take correction of any kind, and arguments were always on the other party according to her. Some people are genuinely delusional, and personally I think it's most of them :(
The way I see it, if somebody truest loves you, they will respect your boundaries
wow I thought I was doing so well by cutting bad actors off but maybe they were just good people being weirdly open? got me revaluating life haha
Trees posted?!
I'm on it.
Thanks for being a great stop on my own road of discovery.
I so grateful to you for producing these videos. They must take so much time and effort. Tactics of abuse, Coercive Control and undue influence are so easy to label, but can be so ambiguous when faced with these behaviours in the real world. Your descriptions and stories illustrate what it can ‘look like’ and that is so important to break through the confusion and self doubt. Thank you.
It's a bit tough when an earnest, benign aspect of yourself is considered a red flag. Interrogation and love bombing are probably what I exhibit most.
I both interrogate and reveal with ease, eager to connect and know the score. I want to know early on if there are any other red flags or red lights to address for either party, before committing. I also prefer open, candid conversations that get to the raw root of issues instead of caged responses to obtuse questions cause by a lack of information and understanding.
As for love bombing, it's about as simple as a benign version could be. Showing ample external affection because I want my partner to feel good, appreciated and important just makes sense in my mind. Finding opportunities to be thoughtful is almost like a hobby in itself. I'm sure it comes across as overbearing.
Those aren't examples of interrogation and love bombing
Interrogation is used to violate others' boundaries in order to have knowledge to use against them. It's used to make people doubt themselves rather than the abuser.
Love bombing, likewise, is not earnest. It's not done to make people feel good. It's done to make people like and trust the abuser, even feel like the abuser is the only one who likes so much about them.
You might unwittingly be crossing boundaries or coming on too strong, which can come across as a res flag, but that's social awkwardness and not abuse.
@@lucyferos205 yep yep. Though, I will say, people DO frequently interpret those as abuse/terribly rude. Recently in one of my online hobby groups a young girl was banned because she asked someone "too many" questions to get to know them, and everyone thought she was trying to stalk them (mind, she was asking about favorite color, hobbies, country of residence) and refused to accept she was being genuine. when I tried to defend her, they were like "no, we aren't discriminating against autistics." sigh!
@@reidleblanc3140There's not much we can do about other people's snap judgments. If it helps, everyone is disliked and unfairly judged to some degree. We just have to focus on the people who see us for who we are and appreciate us.
@@lucyferos205 The problem is, as slightly touched upon in the video, "Love bombing" is used to refer to any constant display of love, even if earnest due to somewhat death of the author through online discourse
I always fail to see red flags whether friendship or romantic relationship because I always intend to "understand" the person's behavior-in the end I get abused and mistreated. Some of my so called-friends told me that I'm the reason why I always end up to abusive relationship. I hope I can process my self and videos like yours.
i don't know you. But maybe it would help you to say "I'll need to think about that for a while"
before saying or doing anything for people.
It may give you time to consider how much you truly want to give, or helps to see if your boundaries get pushed.
Abusers almost always have mental health problems... that doesn't mean they're not abusers. Few people understand this... just because you can guess where their shitty behavior is coming from doesn't mean it's ok. like very few people will do evil stuff for the sake of doing evil stuff. Most of them have somewhere in their brain telling them it's acceptable. but they'll probably never learn it's not if you continue to validate them. "your mental illness is lying to you right now.."
Isaac is a giga chad.
This video had some strong lines. "look at their behaviour, imagine it's never going to change, and ask ourselves if we would be prepared to live with that" is something I've felt for a long time and really liked how you put it in words.
I find that often I have to ask this question with various partners, some abusive, most not but all so far simply not meshing with fundamental aspects of my life. It can be so discouraging to repeatedly find that the answer is no, and that it can even be a single bad trait or reoccurring issue. In the past I found myself very tempted to just shove down my misgivings and try to accept it.
I don't know where it came from, self confidence, age, a quieter lifestyle, or just experience knowing I can still meet new people at any time. But that question has quickly become starkly contrasted with the flipside. "Continuing with my own behaviour, imagining I never change, would I prefer to live the rest of my life alone if I need to" and more and more I find the answer is simply, yes.
It's sometimes disappointing to meet so many people that after giving them ample time I simply find I live a much nicer life without them. But I find it easier every time to start over again and open myself up, cautiously and optimistically, with low risks. And I hope that over time I will continue to meet a few more people that I could live with just the way they are. And I hope someday one of those people can be a partner, but until then. I can live with myself, as I am, even if I stopped improving, on my own. And that gives me strength to resist impulsive and regretful relationships of all types.
Thank you, Theramintrees and Qualiasoup, as always, for helping me better understand myself and those around me.
I find it interesting that previous generations love advice- showing interest, mirroring their positive body language etc, was seen as normal 10-20 years ago. Now the very same behaviours are called red flags by gurus.
Because a lot of "love advice" is actually "manipulation advice", and that hasn't actually changed at all.
I wonder if maybe you could do a video talking about the corollary idea of green flags.
I think with both kinds of flags it’s the overall pattern that matters. If a person exhibits only one or two red flags, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a bad person, and if a person exhibits one or two green flags that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a good person. It’s when the flags start becoming abundant that you can start seeing the overall picture. But that’s something that takes time, and reflexively cutting someone out of your life because of one red flag (especially if it’s a stupid red flag) is only going to push away many potentially happy relationships. There’s no magic bullet to avoid getting hurt again apart from abandoning civilization and living by yourself away from all other people in a hut in the woods. But that has its own problems.
"Love bombing" is an annoying one. Some people are just very intense and powerful in their romantic feelings. Love bombing is only a problem (more so a symptom) when confounded with other more convicting red flags.
2:32 me when my 2 best friends are literally mirroring💀"sorry guys you're way too similar to me so we cant be friends!!!"
The only form of mirroring that can reel me in now is: "I love TheraminTrees too!"
Thanks for your amazing work as always. ❤
This has brought a lot of clarity into how I can better asses partners and also why it's a good thing that the current one was so hesitant with me. I exhibit Greg and Isaac behavior combined (honest love bombing + susceptibility) You've reassured me that it's okay to build trust over time and to have doubts. On both sides. I used to feel guilt for not trusting a potential partner quickly and evaluating them. But without doing that a leap of faith can be foolishness and a lack of care for one's own heart. Thanks a lot, love your work!
Thank you! It's funny isn't it. With any other big investment, we'd be encouraged to do our research. But with the person we might be spending our lives with, we're often feel we should just leap in.
Soundtrack is simply amazing... the content is great and insightful, but the soundtrack is beyond greatness.
Thanks!
This reminds me a lot of how neurodivergent people can be treated like outcasts because people think they're rude or unempathetic, when in reality they just lack social grace. I know several people like this who others treat awfully for this exact reason, and one of them is one of the kindest, most encouraging people I know. I wish people would be slower to judge others because they dont do or say the exact right thing all the time.
You have helped me through so much. I am a traumatized individual, you're videos helped me navigate a relationship with my older abusive (he's special needs) brother, helped me navigate relationships with my extended family (they're pretty religious and I'm a transgender atheist. We love each other a lot and they do know about my identity now but I was stressed for a while) and helped me leave a codependent relationship. You have saved my life. Thank you for your videos.
Whoa TheraminTrees video OUTTA NOWHERE! 😯 What a pleasant and thoroughly unexpected surprise.
Three in a month! 🙌
When I was 19 I dated someone with borderline personality disorder, and within the first month there were red flags that my dad (69 years old at the time, very wise man, especially regarding relationships between adults) saw clearly, and he tried to warn me, but I spent another month or so with him, before I realized that he had serious mental health issues, and ended things. He responded by threatening suicide, and for a minute I thought he had done so (since I hadn’t heard anything from him after he sent the suicide note) but it turns out he had been arrested, apparently some of his lies met the threshold of fraud, and eventually he was incarcerated in a mental hospital. The most traumatic thing wasn’t the relationship, or it’s end, or really anything about him, the lasting trauma came from when the police questioned me regarding him and my relationship with him, in their investigation to arrest him, I have no idea what he told them about me, but the questioning was extremely insulting, humiliating, and rude. Plus they threatened to arrest me if I didn’t cooperate. But I suspect that’s just SOP for police investigations.
My point is, I never saw that same set of red flags again until I saw George Santos running for Congress, and immediately I knew this was someone else with borderline personality disorder, and I told everyone I knew not to vote for him, because everything he said would turn out to be a lie, just like it had been with the guy I dated all those years ago. I think it’s hard to recognize some sets of red flags as being a set of red flags, unless you have already experienced them in a different person.
Not everyone with BPD is like that.
@@ArtfulCosumDust I don’t doubt. And people with BPD are deserving of satisfying relationships. But such relationships will likely be challenging.
not to sound like a douche but you appear to exhibit the exact kind of behavior this video is warning against. Personally I think wanting to end a relationship even in the dating phase after finding out they have mental health issues of any kind is ridiculous. Unless you (or i guess them) can give more info i cant help but from my own experience see that as a red light. Relationships are about helping each other grow more than anything. yes, people with poor mental health can be difficult but not everyone is on the extreme end and mutual problem solving is just part of how relationships work. Look at yourself you’ve categorized an entire group of people through no fault of their own with a condition they were born with, ALL OF THEM, as unsalvageable pathological liars who will just repeat the same kind of bad experiences you’ve had before. This is the kind of logic people who justify racism use. Not trying to white knight that guy, i know nothing about him, but neither you me or anyone else knows anything about all the other people with that stuff, only they do, so why do you feel the need to antagonize them?
Why are so many people in the comment section being abeliest as fuck what the hell
dude, you mean to tell me that ON TOP of writing about and presenting the incredibly insightful information in this video that you animated it AND did the music?! if that isn't textbook quality content I don't know what is!
~2:00 This list of superficial "red flags" sounds a lot like the "ick" phenomenon. With Icks perfectly normal behavior is "revolting" and used to excuse abandoning relationships.
the "ick" is pretty plainly about personal preferences and attraction. I've never heard it as an excuse for "abandoning relationships". Certainly it's a reason to stop seeing someone casually though, if you're no longer attracted to them emotionally or sexually.
@@user-gg8tl5yt7d You do not understand the severity of what passes for "icks", like waiting in line, crying at a funeral, or using an umbrella.
If actions like those legitimately make you lose interest, you're the one whose broken.
Or more likely IMO, they are actually mate quality "red flags" picked up from others and backed by spurious logic (feigned disgust as an excuse to seek "better")
Red flags? No thanks, they look green when I’m acting dumb
When looking through rose tinted glasses, all the red flags just look like flags.
@@Irondragon1945 You not gonna credit that quote?
Felt af, especially when feral Corvid takes over.
Red flags don't look like red flags through rose tinted glasses.they just look like flags
I learnt this the hard way.
@@doublecorvidfine, you got me. Its from character actress Margo Martindale.
As the title suggests - I do one of these 'red flags'. I am a love-bomber. In my few past relationships, I always get overwhelmed with my feelings and feel the need to 'pass them on' and 'share' them by buying gifts and going out of my way to treat the other party. I would liken it to being smitten, though the emotion is generally stronger. It's happened every time, but I've never wished or desired to be controlling or manipulative. Fortunately, I am now in a loving and hopefully life-long marriage so this should never be an issue for me again ... I'm just lucky to have found my other half.
Great video :)
A while ago I started using the term yellow flag as opposed to red flag, yellow meaning to slowdown and observe. Thank you for the video.
Thank you. I realized finally that my redflag was I lovebomb and am very possessive. But with deeper introspection of late. It is illuminated the fact that I thought others deserved my love and trust, but because they continually betray my trust and support, that I became possessive, thinking that would help them improve, and be protected from their bad influences. But I also don't fight I also just take flight as soon as I feel unappreciated, I just set them free or set myself free.
Lately, I don't even let anyone in unless it's a transactional relationship where a group of people benefits from our involvement, as in, community theatre and other similar projects to aid in progress within various communities.
I no longer trust anyone and no longer let anyone into my life. This way I don't get disappointed and I can not disappoint another. If someone or a group, needs me and it feels like a good fit, I will jump into action but nowadays I am way more discerning and less likely to just jump in like a "fool rushes in"...
This video was healing, and helped me contextualize not only past relationships, but also my role and behaviors in them. Thank you.
Sobering insights! Got me thinking about how many times I have unfairly judged red flags as red lights in new people I encounter, as well as the opposite, forgiving many red lights in people I chose to believe in. Most work setting situations.
Sometimes I feel like a manipulative love
Bomber but I’m so sad after things get weird. I think really I’m just fearful and have attachment issues, leading to hot and cold and then desperate behavior. It took me months after a relationship to realize I’m not a narcissist, just a good bit traumatized and coping in some unhealthy ways.
Thank you for pointing out the difference between "red flags" and "red lights," amongst other things.
A new relationship indeed, is a leap of faith, but it doesn't have to be a reckless one. We can slow down and have a nuanced view of the subject at hand.
Thanks again; your videos never disappoint. They raise my respect for the work you do.
I read a book when I was young about some pilot-commandos who were infiltrating a base. The team hacker 'sliced' into the base's automated alarm system and noted that it worked on a flag system. Unusual conditions would raise flags, and if enough were raised, the base would alarm. He went on to explain that an unscheduled opening of the armoury door would raise a lot of flags, but the same at broom closet would raise fewer (but would still raise some).
That's how I've always thought of red flags.
Having been raised by a Borderline, I had a completely messed up understanding of what love is and initially chased after Borderlines and Narcissists. So much of this story reminded me of those Borderlines. It wasn't until I became more ok being alone and gained some self-worth, that I found a good relationship that has lasted more than 20 years so far and that keeps getting better.
we are utterly blessed to have another TT video so soon. i hope you’re doing well, Link. as always, this was a thought-provoking watch. i recommend your channel to everyone i know. thank you for articulating and fleshing out these difficult topics.
Lmao The title made me think it was someone replying to an old comment. 😂
As someone with a tendency to shower my loved ones with attention and personalized gifts, just to show my love, I often worry it could be seen as a red flag...
If I believe in my abilities, it’s “arrogance”.
If I question my abilities, it’s “weaponized incompetence”.
@@neolordie And when I do it badly despite my best efforts, I’m accused of doing it badly on purpose, because “the end result is the same”
:sigh:
@@neolordie Bullshit, nobody does the dishes bad on purpose, this is insane paranoia. Maybe men just aren't as careful about the little things in general? Or are you gonna deny, idk, that men's living spaces are on average way less neat than women's?
Neurodivergence can look like weaponised incompetence. I get accused of it all the time around physical tasks because of my bad balance, but if I ask a typical NT to add 30 numbers together in their head and they fail, somehow I'm not allowed to complain and am being too demanding. Like dude, it's not hard, just picture the list, round up or down and subtract/ add the remainder. You know, do the thing that comes naturally.
Thanks, now I'm analyzing whether my past self was subconsciously abusive without trying or intending to be. I don't understand how showering someone with affection and meaning it can be considered a manipulative bomb, but here we are as a society.
To manipulate means to operate/control (neutral to positive in the context of inanimate objects, frowned upon in the context of livings)
We always manipulate for as long as we breathe
Just like with breathing, sometimes we do that consciously, sometimes by autopilot
Holding ones breath is temporarily and even more concious attempt at control ontop of usual manipulation of how/when the air goes in/out
Thank you for opportunity to think about this, suddenly something lifted off and something landed in
well, the key thing is the 'and meaning it' bit. a lovebomber doesn't mean it. outwardly, it appears the same as someone showering their favorite person with affection because they just want to make them smile, but the actual point of it isn't to make them happy as an end in and of itself, it's to make them happy so they're less likely to think you might possibly have bad intentions further down, and so that, if they find themselves considering leaving, they find themselves second-guessing the idea because surely someone who's been so affectionate (at least at some times) can't really be that bad... can they?
I rewatched all your videos recently and now a new video? Your breakdown of hazardous relationships, with people and groups is very eyeopening and helpful, and your video style uplifts them to masterpieces.
Thank you!
That feel when you realize you've been a Devin.
Better late than ever to have genuine self-improvement
Me right now
Your thoroughness of following through with the "after" of the relationship is the kind of effort that demonstrates how much you care about psych education. Keep up the great work, you're doing people a service!
First time I'm here this early. Thank you for these ❤ I still use your 'Grooming Minds' video as the first homework assignment in my Communication Course at university. It always creates interesting conversations in class. Keep it going.
I love these series. The simple and clean yet detailed models, the thought provoking ideas, the concise scripting and dialog… just everything about these videos are wonderful.
This reminds me of how I used to misread some abusers as "co-dependents" or even fragile and vulnerable seeing their insecurity in a glimpse behind the mask at first meeting them and thinking "oh they are insecure like myself!" Well they were insecure but in any way like my SELF. At some point all personality disorders kinda overlap and have similarities but for very different profound reasons and with very different reactions, nowadays I strive to differentiate activity vs passivity. We humans are extremely complex and nuanced.
Your videos have been endlessly helpful, but this is the one that resonates with me the most. Thank you for doing what you do.
These videos are always so beautiful and educational, I've grown so much simply by watching them and even recognized my own behaviors and improved
What a great video. Thank you! I've always rushed into relationships, speeding past the red flags and red lights. The headiness of a new relationship was too seductive for me to take it more slowly. A few years ago, I realized that taking your time - to see what comes to the surface because it will, eventually - is one of the best things you can do in a new relationship. Do not jump into things too deeply, living together, getting engaged/married, etc. Allow the seasons to come and go, as you explore the relationship. Once you're in deep, it's very hard to walk away. Also, please make sure you're healthy enough to be in a relationship. As the narrator said, "We need to scrutinze ourselves." We also need to make sure we're not the red flag or red light in these relationships.
This video came at the perfect time. I don’t care if the internet is spying on me, it dropped this in my lap to help. I just very recently came to the realization that both my boss and my ex boyfriend are essentially occupying the same role on my life: controlling, decisive, ultra-competent (in the ways the developed world appreciate), ultra-charismatic, pillars of their social communities. They both found a way to sink their talons into my insecurities and use them against me: valuing my creativity on one hand but also using it as evidence of my general incompetence surrounding anything linear, appreciating my enthusiasm but condemning me as “too emotional” when my enthusiasm is me advocating for myself, protecting but also infantilizing (how cute you just never remember to lock the door *boop*)…..and the ever closing world that felt like…I’ve been able to extricate myself from one of those relationships….its difficult though when there’s SO much security involved.
there is something very dream like about the art style in its representation of reality that makes these rather complex concepts feel easier to digest
This video really got me thinking.
I’m a bit of a combination of Isaac and Devon (hopefully not as bad as the latter) in that I have experienced that feeling of an innocent, spontaneous, carefree relationship like Isaac had with Greg and I feel very disappointed and deflated if they suddenly want to slam the brakes on as Isaac did. I don’t want to cut people out of my life unnecessarily, but I also worry about being a mug. As such, it’s interesting to hear the perspective of someone (Isaac) who genuinely wants to take it slow and isn’t just losing interest or whatever.
A key difference in my case is that I recognise that something like moving in is a big commitment that presents serious practical obstacles, so I would understand being cautious about that. I’m less understanding about aversion to “putting labels on things”.
Being honest with myself, my fear, perhaps wrongly, is that someone who displays the slightest whiff of hesitation is losing interest at best or deliberately taking me for a ride at worst. I feel like, if they really liked me, they would be as willing to throw caution to the wind as I am, and I’ve known people to do exactly that after claiming they were taking it slowly because of [insert reason here].
It probably doesn’t help that I’m a barrister by trade because I reflexively spot inconsistencies in their explanations for things.
It also doesn’t help that I have many friends who really did have that whirlwind romance experience with someone they met while they were still fairly young and ended up marrying them. It makes it harder to accept that it’s normal to want to take it slower. Perhaps it’s just the availability heuristic rearing its head.
I’ve also had several relationships with people who were previously abused or cheated on and they have a tendency to regard me with suspicion based on what their ex did, which I find really hard to take. I get quizzed about female friends and colleagues, for example. Maybe there is a line between sensible safety precautions and having unfair trust issues, but it’s a fuzzy one.
Part of what makes it hard is that some people really swear blind that they are not doing/going to do thing X that you’re worried about and act highly offended that you would even think that of them, then you apologise and they end up actually doing X.
I guess the best path is for both partners to be cautious in the early stages and (this is the key point for me) not take their partner’s caution personally.
Barrister!? Red flag!! :8) Yep, it's a complicated picture isn't it. A lot of ambiguity and fuzziness to navigate - which are of course magnified by elements like attraction. I'm sure many of us remember feeling completely pummelled with all the signals we experienced - real and imaginary - from our first loves/crushes.
Love this channel, thanks for the content. I remember this channel helping me get out of very bad mental situation in life and I still return to it from time to time.
The longer i watched this video, the more i realized how many behavior one of my former friend displayed checked the box of abusers. She was smart, humorous (still to this day one of the most funny person i have ever met) and we clicked so hard. But there existed too the silent treatment, the unspoken expectations,… And when i leave her for good, she told me she wanted to be friends again. I admire her and know she can change for the better, but our relationship was such an emotional rollercoaster that i would never want to experience that ever again.