@@spacedinosaur8733 pretty much their way of telling us how bad we are for not helping Mexicans and South Americans, because we don’t have enough time and money to help others before we help our selves. That’s the problem with with the nu trek or many new shows today. Yes you can bring up modern events and things happening today, but try not to lecture us and make us feel bad about things based on your own beliefs. It alienates a large portion of the viewer base. Everyone should be able to enjoy shows, and also be entertained and be able to escape. Otherwise we will just watch the news or documentaries
As bad as Kurtzman’s recent work is, and I’m not very fond of JJs recent work either, I recently rewatched Fringe which was Kurtzman and JJ, and it was great character driven SF. I wonder what happened.
I must confess I always enjoy these dark universe type episodes. Also included one of the best lines ever"Nobody acted like this, except maybe Mr Paris"
My thoughts exactly. Had this detail been alluded to in the episode* it wouldn't be given a 2nd thought. *Like: "Why did your ship have a backup EMH?" "The crew must of decided it nessesary after stardate >insert date
I figured the same thing! They created the backup module *because* of the deterioration incident, then later lost it to these folks and couldn't make another one for some reason
There were some truly magical moments during Voyager - sadly not enough IMO. Played a little ‘too safe’. However, I’d watch ‘Threshold’ on repeat for a week rather than entertain ‘Discovery’ for five bloody minutes. MORE of these ST themed videos please DAVE!!
To be fair, they might have made the “backup EMH” specifically because they realized how hard it was to try to recreate the doctor from scratch in that previous episode.
Or it could be that the Kirians attacked Voyager prior to the events of "Message in a Bottle", meaning Voyager had already lost it during the events in this episode and that's why Tom and Harry were trying to recreate a replacement.
Thats a Possibility I Had not considered. I Thought either they Lost the Module before that Episode, the One with Him in the Far Future dons't set when the Events discussed in it occure, or else Harry and Tom were simply unaware of it.
The question is, is the doctor special anymore, if they can create copy after copy after copy after copy, all of which just a sentient as the original doctor. They can create and replicate life at a godlike scale. This makes even data with his special positronic brain, No longer seem special at all. Who cares if you can’t replicate another android with his brain, if you can just create another doctor, with the current hardware we have, that is easy to make, even 70,000 light years from home.
@@jamesbizs I think the Doctor was made special by his individuality which he gained through his unique experiences and the opportunity he had to have agency over his own programming. It follows that any EMH would "be special" if granted to those rights, because they would become distinct individuals, which is a theme touched on in episodes that highlight the Doctors EMH right's activism. The episodes Flesh and Blood and Author, Author explore these ideas really well, imo!
Beware of those who claim that their ancestors were victims of another people, and who to try to evoke outrage against others living today. Surprisingly often, those who promote outrage do not desire justice. They want to spread hatred, humiliate others, and seek self-aggrandizement.
Victimhood narratives do seem to be outstandingly useful in maintaining a tight group identity if you're part of the ingroup and appear to provide a sense of fellowship and common purpose for said ingroup. You can see this now with black people and the slavery narrative, and also with the other peoples and narratives that must never be mentioned.
@Chicago Typerider Not really it's mostly an african-american thing exhasberbated by the commies in the government, ethnostates are just another purity cycle just another collectivism.
@Connection Lost Not "as opposed to". Do you think there can be only one Bad Guy? By concentrating on your preferred Boogey-Man, you lose sight of the threat your own party engenders. Keep your eyes and ears open.
It's quite a message in this episode, especially today when powerful forces are trying to consolidate their ability to set the "official" narrative on not only historical events, but present and ongoing events. They use censorship and smears to prevent alternative narratives or inconvenient facts from gaining prominence. I'm glad the episode proved The Doctor wrong by showing that the brutal, honest truth is what has the best chance to lead to good outcomes.
It´s funny really how often stories written 10, 20 , 30 or even more years back has come back to be quite relevant today. Yes history can be brutal especially when put into wider context and there are DEFIANTLY parts of it, that NOBODY is proud off and would rather forget ever existed and others chose to ignore. But again as shown here the honest brutal truth is often better in the long run, rather then the kind lie.
Define "good outcome". In this case, as is the case throughout most of actual real human history, "good outcome" is fully dependent upon the observer's goals, attitudes and values. While we might see the Confederate War as having a "good outcome"... those people whose way of life was destroyed, who for better than a century became a pariah culture might disagree. An objective observer, watching western civilization on the verge of collapse into socialist hell, watching the cities being burned and looted over false narratives of false history, might also disagree that the outcome was "good". Certainly sub-optimal. A second war where one or the other became victorious and imposed an empire, or exterminated the other species (not "race") might be considered a "good" outcome... depending on one's goals, attitudes and values. It appears to have been a "good outcome" that Suetonius defeated Boadicea from our perspective two thousand years later; but I don't think her people who had to live through the subsequent history would have agreed.
There's the 1619 Project by the New York Times, which aims the United States to be viewed as a profoundly racist country from it's founding with no redeeming qualities at all.
I think good history more or less needs to be unbiased and neutral. It shouldn´t take sides or exclude certain things display everything including the mindset at the time and let people judge it from ALL of the facts. A few examples could be WW2 many see the whole Aryan race thing as exclusively Hitler´s invention, yet in reality all he did was taking already existing beliefs of that time and turn them a bit more extreme. Eugenics was something that was prevalent in the Nordic countries around that time. And there are stories some people can tell of being brought to hospitals as youth and being sterilized, "for their own good". Since they where seen as not conforming to the eugenic standards. Same with Black slavery that the USA and most of Europe took slaves is a well known fact. Lesser known is that Africa was drinking from that cup just as deep if not deeper than Europe and USA did. In fact we have a statement from one of the African kings begging the British not to abolish slavery, as the joy of taking a captive tribe as slaves was a deeply ingrained part of their culture. Also a lot of African slaves where not captured by white slavers but captured and sold by their own people for a nice profit. Then there is the most recent of all the leftist screaming racist over black people killed by the cops. However here once again things are left out and it shouldn´t. Floyd was high on drugs and was making a scene even before he got arrested and his cardiac arrest can directly be contributed to a combination of stress and the amount of drugs he had taken. So once again history should remain unbiased and show the ENTIRE thing not just pieces of it.
doctor centric episodes were always the best when it came to voyager. this in particular is a fantastic one. i also really enjoy latent image and author, author
"Launch assault probes. Fire at will. Hail them." - said so casually that she seemed bored. From some other reviews of this episode, I heard that the cast was excited that they could play bad guys for once.
Personally, for me, this is my absolutely favourite episode of any Trek, narrowly beating In The Pale Moonlight. I know that might be somewhat controversial, but like ITPM, this is a character piece challenging the easy resolutions. It doesn't have an easy answer, it asks uncomfortable questions and doesn't sugar coat the horrors of their stories. It's just so great.
The real genius of Voyager was for the later half of the show they decided to put Jeri Ryan in a figure hugging uniform so that even the sucky episodes were watchable
Pretty accurate take on things. Star Trek Discovery I would say: loved 0% of it, 10% painfully mediocre, 25% absolutely awful, 65% absolute woke trash.
For some reason I got hooked on Voyager first. The original Star Trek was before my time. I saw a few episodes of TNG and DS9 but didn't watch it often. When Voyager came out I guess because I caught the show at the start I ended up watching it all. I remember once a week when it aired my dad and I would be in the living room watching the next episode. Years later when Netflix was invented I caught up on TNG and DS9. I can't watch the original star trek in this day. It looks too old compared to what we have now.
I mean, yeah: despite what he says at 3:05, Voyager might actually still exist as a museum ship when this episode takes place. Given that they had a Voyager-J during the same time period.
I do like Voyager, yeah some of the earlier seasons were a bit crap but by season four it really got its act together, oh its got the best theme tune of any trek ( ducks for cover) Robert Picardo as the Doctor was always excellent.
Yeah, I started rewatching Voyager after watching DS9 again, and it feels like most of the episodes are just 'filler'... Lots of people being processed, or stranded somewhere. Too much twilight zone, not enough cool future space science stuff! And it was funny that Kess left the series on the SAME episdoe that Seven of Nine became a regular... Guess you can only afford to have 1 hot chick on the cast at once ;) I seem to remember Kate Mulgrew making a joke that she thought she was supposed to be the 'hot chick' :) And I guess Belana didn't count :)
@@stanlee5465 It's funny how people perceive things differently, and how different aspects of the same work attract different minds :) I'm at the end of 1.5 voyage through Star Trek universe (only Enterprise and 2 movies left unwatched) and so far Voyager is my favorite and DS9 is the worst. While I agree with too many fillers, STV and leaset fits into world-to-world canvas of the saga. DS9 however is static, depressing view of endless walls of the installation and filled with never-ending political references. And don't get me started on annoying Prophet and ridiculous portrayal of space travel in solar wind powered canisters (something that Star Wars would do).
Kim "Don't you remember? I tried to kill you with the pipe." Paris "I remember you saying, 'This is my friend. Nobody touches him.' I'm going to remember that for a long time."
the quiet melancholy that runs through this episode makes it one of the very best of all of voyager. i've watched the series many times on dvd and this very episode is one of my most beloved ones. remember the short sequence when the doctor nearly yearningly recalls the character of b'elanna; that's a beautiful scene.
If I was in the PR department of Star Trek, my answer would be the backup module was created because of the problems they had with losing the Dr earlier in the same season
Maybe with Voyager's current level of technology all it could do was restore faulty data files, but with the centuries of advancement the Kyrians had since then, they could create extrapolate it into a full-fledged hologram of its own.
One of my favorite episodes of Voyager. Really clever, thoughtful, and and important reflection on fixating upon a distorted past to justify current horrors.
A solid episode. Season 4 has “Year of Hell part 1 & 2” are good episodes So is “Message in a Bottle” & “One” I still think “The Omega Directive” is the best in the season. One of the best Voyager episodes ever. Season 5 was better. Episodes 2,3,4,6,9,11,16,19,20,23,24,25 (9, 11, & 23 are especially great)
Voyager was my second favorite series, next to TNG of course. This was one of the best episodes they created in all of Star Trek. It paints a poignant picture of the struggle with the past that Germany and Japan have with WWII and the struggle to maintain the past here in the USA. I am quite proud of the UK and its reconcilliation with its Imperial past and even the more conservetive groups accepting the lessons learned from it.
From this lesson: Don't believe in things without evidence. The bigger the claim, the larger the need for evidence to back up that claim. Mere stories don't suffice as a foundation on which to build your entire world view if you care about truth.
But also, the people of a culture need to believe in their culture and its values enough to not be rocked by seemingly unpleasant truths discovered in time. To borrow from Lindybeige; Nelson had an affair with an ambassador's wife... but he stuffed the French! Modern revisionists would relentlessly hammer and promote the idea of the affair and its immorality (hilarious considering their own amorality) and diminish the value of stuffing the French, without actually changing any _facts_ of history... merely their relative importance, and our awareness of them. I mean... he stuffed the French!
@@Hiraghm Some great points. There are some big risks of progressing too fast. But as much as religious fundamentalists will resist it, progress is indeed unstoppable. Though I'd like to think that no one who actually really cares about logical truth sincerely believes in silly stories of old and their tall tales. I also don't think beliefs in such Harry Potter-esque tall tales necessarily hold anyone to higher ideals. Bad people will rationalize bad behavior, no matter what. There are countless examples of that on all sides. Tons of horrible people and groups used the Bible as a means of rationalizing their terrible behavior when really they just had an irrational fear of different people of different culture and wanted to wipe them out. I see that with a lot of RUclipsr personalities on the right who want to preserve what they see as white culture, including ethno-state boy Sargon. I doubt many of these people actually give a flying quack about religion in any sincere way. They merely adopt it and use it as a battering ram against their lunatic fears. Tim Pool is another. But I digress.
@@Mineav Thinking you know why you behave as you do gives you all sorts of excuses for extraordinary behavior. ~ Duncan Idaho - FRANK HERBERT, the Dune saga Even hard core atheistic societies like the USSR & China still killed millions in the name of "logical necessity". "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." - Spock (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan) "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many." - Kirk (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)
This episode ranks with the very best of ST and all of sci-fi and all of television!! Robert Picardo is a fantastic talent, criminally underrated. His character travels emotional arcs that Data couldn't and Spock intentionally wouldn't. EMH is a wonderful character and deserves his own spin-off, even now!
If you can overlook the 38 torpedoes being fired 200 times, the regeneration of shuttles for 7 years, and the crew that stays 140-150 for 7 years without reinforcements.... why not.
perhaps a more subtle way would have been to have the Kyrian curator figure out the actual events by himself, maybe through a newly decrypted set of logs.
This was always in my top 3 of Voyager's episodes. It's one of those they got right... I always loved the Doctor though. He will always be my favorite Voyager character, what a classy EMH.
Yeah, this episode always stuck with me. The Doctor essentially being capable of time travel blew my mind as a kid. Then the whole mirror world and historical revisionism story line. A beautiful achievement for the series.
This probably one of my favourite episodes of Voyager. The plot and how it cleverly portrays revisionist history is only matched by the talent of the actors. Robert Picardo is especially excellent and I’ve always found it moving. It’s certainly more relevant today than when it was written and, ironically, particularly pertinent to modern Star Trek. Thank you for revisiting this episode. And, yes, I’ve often wondered about that version of The Doctor too. FYI: I always told myself that they built the EMP backup module because of nearly loosing the Doctor in Message in a Bottle. I mean, they wouldn’t just create a McGuffin for this episode without any thought would they?
Star Trek Picard taught us that post TNG is actually quite racist against non-humanoids. The good (backup) doc probably would have been intercepted before reaching Earth and put to work as a janitor or whatever without anyone caring about his story.
I saw something with Patrick Stewart apologizing to people and going on about DRUMPH! and BREXIT!, but as far as I know, Star Trek ended when Enterprise was cancelled.
Actually, according to the episode, "Backup Doctor" didn't leave for Earth for several hundred years, (at least), meaning it wouldn't be too much of a stretch that he would make it home around the time of Discovery...
@@kynikersolon3882 ST:Picard is one of the two current Live Action CANON Star Trek shows, made with the FULL SUPPORT of the greatest actor to ever appear on any Star Trek show or film - Sir Patrick Stewart. In other words, I would love to see one of you Trek haters walk up to Sir Patrick and tell him HIS show is 'bad fan fiction". You wouldn't have the balls, and we both know it.
This is precisely what "hyena of Europe" is doing right now, portraying themselves as an innocent victim in WWII, while erasing all the mentions of their own pogroms and genocide.
In this episode, the victors were heavily implied to be the Vaskans. On the planet, the Vaskans were firmly in charge and allowed privileges forbidden to the Kyrians. The story of the warship Voyager was written by the losers, as a sort of "stab in the back myth", to explain their current situation.
A timely analysis of a good episode. We are still trying to come to terms with the pasts of our countries. Truth (as far as we can accurately determine it) is ultimately the most important goal, followed closely by a reasonable contemporary perspective on that truth. Meaning, of course, that if our forefathers (or whatever gender-neutral term one feels good with) were imperfect vessels, that does not necessarily make everything they did back then wrong. Pat, in Chicago
Dave, I'd like your opinion: If "Star Trek" can have an alternative timeline, the Kelvin timeline, then couldn't "Star Trek" also have an alternative timeline, and instead of there being "Star Trek: Voyager" there was "Star Trek: Equinox"? An alternate, and much more realistic Star Trek tv series based around the adventures of the crew of the Equinox, wherein they weren't painted as the bad guys and didn't meet such an ignominious end? That is a Star Trek series I would thoroughly enjoy watching, _if_ and _provided that_ it was properly cast and had non-woke (preferably culturally vintage) writers. If Voyager had, or Equinox would, learn from a science fiction book series called "Midshipman's Hope", they could have told some compelling stories.
"When diplomacy fails there's only one alternative: Violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." That never fails to crack me up.
I just watched this episode and yes, its pretty damn good. I can see why this is could be considered the best of Voyager. Those uniforms with the black tunic looked bad-assed.
I Enjoyed This Episode Immensely Myself, as I Have always seen how Historical Revisionism and Twisting Facts is used in Our World. It speaks to me at that Level.
This is one of my favorite episodes of Voyager for the same reason I love every episode of Futurama that looks at what people in the year 3000 think life was like in the 20th century. There's some vague points that are almost right and yet so fundamentally wrong that it makes you (or me at least) question our own view of history. A lot of what we know is from educated guessing and can be influenced by politics and culture of the time. Its interesting because not only could we be incredibly far off but realistically we'll probably never really know what the truth is.
I wasn't a big fan of Voyager when it first aired in the 1990s. I didn't hate it but I never really got into it. So I missed a lot of episodes. I'm glad now that I did. Now I get to watch Voyager as if its a new ST series and so much better than Picard or STD.
Voyager was the Star Trek I adored. I was 12ish when it would come on at 1 am on fox 56 and I'd stay up and watch it as late night was practically the only time I got to put on what I wanted to watch.
They learned their lesson and made a backup of the Doctor once they got him back. Far easier to make a backup than to create one from scratch. Though to be honest, that still begs the question of the Doctor's matrix, the one that started to fail while Kes was still on board, and they had to sacrifice the Doc's diagnostic hologram of Doctor Zimmerman to transplant his matrix into the Doctor.
This is one of my all time favorite trek episodes, I will be thinking about this one for a long time. Kinda hope to see this potential backup of the doctor in a later season of discovery. Making it back to federation space.
So good to hear positive reviews of the great Star Trek that was made years ago, because let's be honest there has been no good Star Trek since 2005. Thanks for your retrospective discussion this great episode. I hope you do more TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT reviews.
Well technically she wasn't cold-blooded. More like lukewarm-blooded killer. She was somewhat reluctant about laying waste to hundreds of ships throughout the series.
@@keegobricks9734 To be fair, she may have become cold-blooded in Threshold, after a mutated Tom Paris turned her into a lizard thing and she laid eggs.
EMH backup modual took the place of the EMH Repair program. When they patched the doctor with the graft. the EMH repair modual was blanked, and the doctors program was moved into the backup modual.
the doctor is my favorite character, i think my fav was the one where he sings, it says alot about self actualization, and personal self worth.. also the song is touching
What a coincidence. I just watched a video that made me comment this quote. "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
this episode is a gleaming jewel sandwiched between 3 incredibly dull episodes in either direction. its message still resonates today, and will likely continue to do so until we sort ourselves out as a global society.
I’ve watched this episode like 100+ times! Every time I’m 100% sucked in..totally entertained and it blows my mind! Such a brilliant episode! These days this is like a feature film compared to the nonsense modern trek is! 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Joe Libra I mean makes a massive difference! That’s why TOS, twilight zone are still rewatched and endlessly discussed! They had proper SF writers! These days to me old trek eps are like feature films, they are so well written, mind bending and entertaining. These new trek shows are completely disposable, forgettable ! They don’t understand what made trek so good! I don’t even consider them as Star Trek! 🤯🤯🤯🤯
Ultimately it's about how people from different cultures can eventually come together to form cohesive societies - once they are willing to accept the damage they have done to each other in the past, and how those event still impact their present.
Certainly an excellent example of Picado's acting chops on the series, as well as Empericism vs Distortionism ^_^ . The 'Warship Voyager' is still one of the coolest designs from this era of Trek; rather a pity that no model kit thereof exists. And getting to see Seven as a Drone again, kicking arse with company... damn that was a great moment :D .
2:30 maybe they made the backup after having to make another emh from scratch. After all, you only get burned by not having a backup one time, after which you create multiple backups.
The only thought I have about Voyager developing a EMH backup is when the Doctor was abducted in season 7's critical care (EMH vs HMO)... there wasn't a working backup then. Hell... it would have been a twist if the EMH stolen wasn't "Doc", but the Equinox EMH left in "the Recycle Bin" since Equinox II.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
More themes and ideas to ponder in this episode than the whole season of Picard.
but Federation BAD! Humans naughty for not saving Romulans & something....something about androids or borg slaves double plus not good...I think.
@@spacedinosaur8733 but good people see five lights!
@@spacedinosaur8733 Don't forget Seven of Nine ditching men like Chakotay to be a rogue lesbian. Lol
Picard is the transformers of Star Trek.
@@spacedinosaur8733 pretty much their way of telling us how bad we are for not helping Mexicans and South Americans, because we don’t have enough time and money to help others before we help our selves. That’s the problem with with the nu trek or many new shows today. Yes you can bring up modern events and things happening today, but try not to lecture us and make us feel bad about things based on your own beliefs. It alienates a large portion of the viewer base. Everyone should be able to enjoy shows, and also be entertained and be able to escape. Otherwise we will just watch the news or documentaries
I also have happy memories of when Star Trek was both optimistic and worth watching. That's what they are... memories.
Another part of Star Trek, that Klurtzman would never understand.
As bad as Kurtzman’s recent work is, and I’m not very fond of JJs recent work either, I recently rewatched Fringe which was Kurtzman and JJ, and it was great character driven SF. I wonder what happened.
"The Doctor was an android. I saw it in the first few minutes of that one episode. Now I'll make him a major part of this season!" - probably Kurtzman
What if Dave tried to explain this to Klutzman using simple words & lots of crayons?
@@BTC909 Are you trying to make Kurtz choke on crayons?
@@dandare9055 Yes.
I must confess I always enjoy these dark universe type episodes. Also included one of the best lines ever"Nobody acted like this, except maybe Mr Paris"
Apparently, the cast really enjoyed this episode too since they were a little tired of playing goody-two-shoes all the time.
They probably built the back-up after "Message In A Bottle."
@@daveross2265 Me too.
My thoughts exactly. Had this detail been alluded to in the episode* it wouldn't be given a 2nd thought.
*Like:
"Why did your ship have a backup EMH?"
"The crew must of decided it nessesary after stardate >insert date
I figured the same thing! They created the backup module *because* of the deterioration incident, then later lost it to these folks and couldn't make another one for some reason
@@indigosteel5702 Aye; or made another yet ended up not having to use it.
@@jimtaylor294 Precisely!
My favorite line in this episode is when the Doctor says - "Except for Mr. Paris, these are all lies!" Lol!
along with "watch your mouth hedgehog!" XD
Yep. Objective version regarding Tom 🤪
The closing scene where a visitor asked what became of the doctor, came out of left field. It was an unexpected gut punch that brought me to tears
There were some truly magical moments during Voyager - sadly not enough IMO. Played a little ‘too safe’.
However, I’d watch ‘Threshold’ on repeat for a week rather than entertain ‘Discovery’ for five bloody minutes.
MORE of these ST themed videos please DAVE!!
To be fair, they might have made the “backup EMH” specifically because they realized how hard it was to try to recreate the doctor from scratch in that previous episode.
Exactly
Or it could be that the Kirians attacked Voyager prior to the events of "Message in a Bottle", meaning Voyager had already lost it during the events in this episode and that's why Tom and Harry were trying to recreate a replacement.
One could say the doctor's backup module came about *because* of Harry and Tom's attempt to make a new EMH.
Thats a Possibility I Had not considered. I Thought either they Lost the Module before that Episode, the One with Him in the Far Future dons't set when the Events discussed in it occure, or else Harry and Tom were simply unaware of it.
exactly, well said.
The question is, is the doctor special anymore, if they can create copy after copy after copy after copy, all of which just a sentient as the original doctor. They can create and replicate life at a godlike scale. This makes even data with his special positronic brain, No longer seem special at all. Who cares if you can’t replicate another android with his brain, if you can just create another doctor, with the current hardware we have, that is easy to make, even 70,000 light years from home.
@@jamesbizs same could be said for transporters
@@jamesbizs I think the Doctor was made special by his individuality which he gained through his unique experiences and the opportunity he had to have agency over his own programming. It follows that any EMH would "be special" if granted to those rights, because they would become distinct individuals, which is a theme touched on in episodes that highlight the Doctors EMH right's activism. The episodes Flesh and Blood and Author, Author explore these ideas really well, imo!
Beware of those who claim that their ancestors were victims of another people, and who to try to evoke outrage against others living today. Surprisingly often, those who promote outrage do not desire justice. They want to spread hatred, humiliate others, and seek self-aggrandizement.
Victimhood narratives do seem to be outstandingly useful in maintaining a tight group identity if you're part of the ingroup and appear to provide a sense of fellowship and common purpose for said ingroup.
You can see this now with black people and the slavery narrative, and also with the other peoples and narratives that must never be mentioned.
@Chicago Typerider Not really it's mostly an african-american thing exhasberbated by the commies in the government, ethnostates are just another purity cycle just another collectivism.
Yes, exactly, beware of the Trump Zombies and their Death Cult.
@Connection Lost Not "as opposed to". Do you think there can be only one Bad Guy? By concentrating on your preferred Boogey-Man, you lose sight of the threat your own party engenders. Keep your eyes and ears open.
Hmm, sounds like the people of Kurtzman and Abrams. Expelled how many times? (but it was always the host nation's fault)
It's quite a message in this episode, especially today when powerful forces are trying to consolidate their ability to set the "official" narrative on not only historical events, but present and ongoing events. They use censorship and smears to prevent alternative narratives or inconvenient facts from gaining prominence. I'm glad the episode proved The Doctor wrong by showing that the brutal, honest truth is what has the best chance to lead to good outcomes.
It´s funny really how often stories written 10, 20 , 30 or even more years back has come back to be quite relevant today.
Yes history can be brutal especially when put into wider context and there are DEFIANTLY parts of it, that NOBODY is proud off and would rather forget ever existed and others chose to ignore.
But again as shown here the honest brutal truth is often better in the long run, rather then the kind lie.
Define "good outcome". In this case, as is the case throughout most of actual real human history, "good outcome" is fully dependent upon the observer's goals, attitudes and values.
While we might see the Confederate War as having a "good outcome"... those people whose way of life was destroyed, who for better than a century became a pariah culture might disagree. An objective observer, watching western civilization on the verge of collapse into socialist hell, watching the cities being burned and looted over false narratives of false history, might also disagree that the outcome was "good". Certainly sub-optimal.
A second war where one or the other became victorious and imposed an empire, or exterminated the other species (not "race") might be considered a "good" outcome... depending on one's goals, attitudes and values.
It appears to have been a "good outcome" that Suetonius defeated Boadicea from our perspective two thousand years later; but I don't think her people who had to live through the subsequent history would have agreed.
@@Hiraghm _Define "good outcome"._
No. You'll have to 'sperg out with this digression into moral nihilism on your own.
There's the 1619 Project by the New York Times, which aims the United States to be viewed as a profoundly racist country from it's founding with no redeeming qualities at all.
I think good history more or less needs to be unbiased and neutral.
It shouldn´t take sides or exclude certain things display everything including the mindset at the time and let people judge it from ALL of the facts.
A few examples could be
WW2 many see the whole Aryan race thing as exclusively Hitler´s invention, yet in reality all he did was taking already existing beliefs of that time and turn them a bit more extreme.
Eugenics was something that was prevalent in the Nordic countries around that time.
And there are stories some people can tell of being brought to hospitals as youth and being sterilized, "for their own good".
Since they where seen as not conforming to the eugenic standards.
Same with Black slavery that the USA and most of Europe took slaves is a well known fact.
Lesser known is that Africa was drinking from that cup just as deep if not deeper than Europe and USA did.
In fact we have a statement from one of the African kings begging the British not to abolish slavery, as the joy of taking a captive tribe as slaves was a deeply ingrained part of their culture.
Also a lot of African slaves where not captured by white slavers but captured and sold by their own people for a nice profit.
Then there is the most recent of all the leftist screaming racist over black people killed by the cops.
However here once again things are left out and it shouldn´t.
Floyd was high on drugs and was making a scene even before he got arrested and his cardiac arrest can directly be contributed to a combination of stress and the amount of drugs he had taken.
So once again history should remain unbiased and show the ENTIRE thing not just pieces of it.
doctor centric episodes were always the best when it came to voyager. this in particular is a fantastic one. i also really enjoy latent image and author, author
Evil Janeway and Superintendent Kira would have made one hell of a duo.
Ah yes, as close as Voyager got to the Mirror Universe, and Janeway finally acting as she was always written!
I always liked those Insaneway moments
"Launch assault probes. Fire at will. Hail them." - said so casually that she seemed bored.
From some other reviews of this episode, I heard that the cast was excited that they could play bad guys for once.
It's like someone gave her the personality of the mad Kirk after the transporter split him into different versions of himself. :D
As someone from the Balkans .... Show this episode to everyone from the Balkans
I know exactly what you mean. :)
@@majork7115 We're lunatics not idiots. People would understand it.... And probably got pissed off
That is the Voyager we would get if Janeway was never able to replicate coffee.
Personally, for me, this is my absolutely favourite episode of any Trek, narrowly beating In The Pale Moonlight.
I know that might be somewhat controversial, but like ITPM, this is a character piece challenging the easy resolutions. It doesn't have an easy answer, it asks uncomfortable questions and doesn't sugar coat the horrors of their stories. It's just so great.
Where do you rank ‘Duet’ from S1 of DS9?
This reminds me of that saying: History is written by the Victors
The defeated allso keep their history to.
Episodes like this helped to teach me about the value of doing my own research and not to just accept things at face value.
I actually really love pretty much 70% of Voyager. 15% are painfully mediocre and 15% are absolutely awful.
The real genius of Voyager was for the later half of the show they decided to put Jeri Ryan
in a figure hugging uniform so that even the sucky episodes were watchable
Pretty accurate take on things.
Star Trek Discovery I would say: loved 0% of it, 10% painfully mediocre, 25% absolutely awful, 65% absolute woke trash.
For some reason I got hooked on Voyager first. The original Star Trek was before my time. I saw a few episodes of TNG and DS9 but didn't watch it often. When Voyager came out I guess because I caught the show at the start I ended up watching it all. I remember once a week when it aired my dad and I would be in the living room watching the next episode. Years later when Netflix was invented I caught up on TNG and DS9. I can't watch the original star trek in this day. It looks too old compared to what we have now.
70% is... A bit too generous
@@eviljoshy3402 give the original a shot. It's pretty good but it does feel dated with the sets and costumes.
Remember watching this episode live. Considered it one of the best I'd ever seen - and it still holds up. Robert Picardo is a masterful actor.
my fave episode of voyager is the episode called "Blink of an eye" season 6
one of my favorites too :D
Great episode, almost TNG quality
I'd love to see a spin-off about the doctor making his way home.
I wonder if the doctor will show up in Discovery, in the 32nd century....
I mean, yeah: despite what he says at 3:05, Voyager might actually still exist as a museum ship when this episode takes place. Given that they had a Voyager-J during the same time period.
I do like Voyager, yeah some of the earlier seasons were a bit crap but by season four it really got its act together, oh its got the best theme tune of any trek ( ducks for cover) Robert Picardo as the Doctor was always excellent.
The best opening sequence too 👍
@@Henry-jp3mc Absolutely. It made TNG's look like boring 💩.
(I love the 💩 gigget - 💩 💩 and more 💩.) 💩!
It was the same with TNG and DS9. The first two seasons were a bit crap, but by season 3 they were hitting their stride.
One of the actual good Voyager episodes
Yeah, I started rewatching Voyager after watching DS9 again, and it feels like most of the episodes are just 'filler'... Lots of people being processed, or stranded somewhere. Too much twilight zone, not enough cool future space science stuff!
And it was funny that Kess left the series on the SAME episdoe that Seven of Nine became a regular... Guess you can only afford to have 1 hot chick on the cast at once ;) I seem to remember Kate Mulgrew making a joke that she thought she was supposed to be the 'hot chick' :) And I guess Belana didn't count :)
@@stanlee5465 It's funny how people perceive things differently, and how different aspects of the same work attract different minds :) I'm at the end of 1.5 voyage through Star Trek universe (only Enterprise and 2 movies left unwatched) and so far Voyager is my favorite and DS9 is the worst. While I agree with too many fillers, STV and leaset fits into world-to-world canvas of the saga. DS9 however is static, depressing view of endless walls of the installation and filled with never-ending political references. And don't get me started on annoying Prophet and ridiculous portrayal of space travel in solar wind powered canisters (something that Star Wars would do).
Kim "Don't you remember? I tried to kill you with the pipe."
Paris "I remember you saying, 'This is my friend. Nobody touches him.' I'm going to remember that for a long time."
@@Serahpin
Other way round but that was an awesome line.
@@brianbraddock32 Fixed and thanks. I was going off of memory.
the quiet melancholy that runs through this episode makes it one of the very best of all of voyager. i've watched the series many times on dvd and this very episode is one of my most beloved ones. remember the short sequence when the doctor nearly yearningly recalls the character of b'elanna; that's a beautiful scene.
If I was in the PR department of Star Trek, my answer would be the backup module was created because of the problems they had with losing the Dr earlier in the same season
Maybe with Voyager's current level of technology all it could do was restore faulty data files, but with the centuries of advancement the Kyrians had since then, they could create extrapolate it into a full-fledged hologram of its own.
Exactly. Far easier to make a backup than to create a new one from scratch.
One of my favorite episodes of Voyager. Really clever, thoughtful, and and important reflection on fixating upon a distorted past to justify current horrors.
A solid episode.
Season 4 has “Year of Hell part 1 & 2” are good episodes
So is “Message in a Bottle” & “One”
I still think “The Omega Directive” is the best in the season. One of the best Voyager episodes ever.
Season 5 was better.
Episodes 2,3,4,6,9,11,16,19,20,23,24,25
(9, 11, & 23 are especially great)
I loved this episode. Thanks for featuring it!
Just watched the episode. This is the voyager we want, this is the voyager we need!
Voyager was my second favorite series, next to TNG of course. This was one of the best episodes they created in all of Star Trek. It paints a poignant picture of the struggle with the past that Germany and Japan have with WWII and the struggle to maintain the past here in the USA. I am quite proud of the UK and its reconcilliation with its Imperial past and even the more conservetive groups accepting the lessons learned from it.
So true it hit me very hard back then and its so relevant now in these times.....
One of my favorite Voyager episodes
One of my favorite episodes!!!
From this lesson: Don't believe in things without evidence. The bigger the claim, the larger the need for evidence to back up that claim. Mere stories don't suffice as a foundation on which to build your entire world view if you care about truth.
But also, the people of a culture need to believe in their culture and its values enough to not be rocked by seemingly unpleasant truths discovered in time. To borrow from Lindybeige; Nelson had an affair with an ambassador's wife... but he stuffed the French!
Modern revisionists would relentlessly hammer and promote the idea of the affair and its immorality (hilarious considering their own amorality) and diminish the value of stuffing the French, without actually changing any _facts_ of history... merely their relative importance, and our awareness of them.
I mean... he stuffed the French!
@@Hiraghm Some great points. There are some big risks of progressing too fast. But as much as religious fundamentalists will resist it, progress is indeed unstoppable. Though I'd like to think that no one who actually really cares about logical truth sincerely believes in silly stories of old and their tall tales.
I also don't think beliefs in such Harry Potter-esque tall tales necessarily hold anyone to higher ideals. Bad people will rationalize bad behavior, no matter what. There are countless examples of that on all sides. Tons of horrible people and groups used the Bible as a means of rationalizing their terrible behavior when really they just had an irrational fear of different people of different culture and wanted to wipe them out. I see that with a lot of RUclipsr personalities on the right who want to preserve what they see as white culture, including ethno-state boy Sargon. I doubt many of these people actually give a flying quack about religion in any sincere way. They merely adopt it and use it as a battering ram against their lunatic fears. Tim Pool is another. But I digress.
The god stories being the main one.
@@Hiraghm Which isn't that hard. They're French.
@@Mineav Thinking you know why you behave as you do gives you all sorts of excuses for extraordinary behavior. ~ Duncan Idaho - FRANK HERBERT, the Dune saga
Even hard core atheistic societies like the USSR & China still killed millions in the name of "logical necessity".
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." - Spock (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan)
"The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many." - Kirk (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)
This episode ranks with the very best of ST and all of sci-fi and all of television!! Robert Picardo is a fantastic talent, criminally underrated. His character travels emotional arcs that Data couldn't and Spock intentionally wouldn't. EMH is a wonderful character and deserves his own spin-off, even now!
I’m willing to forgive the “EMH backup module” continuity flaw just because the ep was so good.
If you can overlook the 38 torpedoes being fired 200 times, the regeneration of shuttles for 7 years, and the crew that stays 140-150 for 7 years without reinforcements.... why not.
perhaps a more subtle way would have been to have the Kyrian curator figure out the actual events by himself, maybe through a newly decrypted set of logs.
Or, its possible they got new ones by trading technology? Color me surprised that ammunition is replenishible via trading!
This was always in my top 3 of Voyager's episodes. It's one of those they got right... I always loved the Doctor though. He will always be my favorite Voyager character, what a classy EMH.
Yeah, this episode always stuck with me. The Doctor essentially being capable of time travel blew my mind as a kid. Then the whole mirror world and historical revisionism story line. A beautiful achievement for the series.
This bad simulation reminds of the bad simulation in the Enterprise finale.
Trip is not dead.
Voyager was my gateway into Star Trek, and I will always have an enormous place in my heart for the series.
This probably one of my favourite episodes of Voyager. The plot and how it cleverly portrays revisionist history is only matched by the talent of the actors. Robert Picardo is especially excellent and I’ve always found it moving. It’s certainly more relevant today than when it was written and, ironically, particularly pertinent to modern Star Trek. Thank you for revisiting this episode. And, yes, I’ve often wondered about that version of The Doctor too.
FYI: I always told myself that they built the EMP backup module because of nearly loosing the Doctor in Message in a Bottle. I mean, they wouldn’t just create a McGuffin for this episode without any thought would they?
Star Trek Picard taught us that post TNG is actually quite racist against non-humanoids. The good (backup) doc probably would have been intercepted before reaching Earth and put to work as a janitor or whatever without anyone caring about his story.
What is this Star Trek Picard you speak of? Sounds like bad fan fiction.
what are you talking about, that show never existed
I saw something with Patrick Stewart apologizing to people and going on about DRUMPH! and BREXIT!, but as far as I know, Star Trek ended when Enterprise was cancelled.
Actually, according to the episode, "Backup Doctor" didn't leave for Earth for several hundred years, (at least), meaning it wouldn't be too much of a stretch that he would make it home around the time of Discovery...
@@kynikersolon3882 ST:Picard is one of the two current Live Action CANON Star Trek shows, made with the FULL SUPPORT of the greatest actor to ever appear on any Star Trek show or film - Sir Patrick Stewart.
In other words, I would love to see one of you Trek haters walk up to Sir Patrick and tell him HIS show is 'bad fan fiction".
You wouldn't have the balls, and we both know it.
I thought you were going to say: "This looks like Alex Kurzman Yaneway." ;)
Still cant believe that brannon braga wrote this episode , he always was good with the more light hearted episodes and amazing with stinkers
I’m shocked too, I agree his writing was usually pretty terrible.
These actors are brilliant, amazing how they can completely change character
"The crew weren't psychotic."
Heh heh heh. Had a good chuckle at that one :P
One of my favorite episodes also.
Oh I LOVE that episode...way before I was "red pilled" (I know cringe)...this episode really got me thinking about history being written by the victor
Not really cringe.
This is precisely what "hyena of Europe" is doing right now, portraying themselves as an innocent victim in WWII, while erasing all the mentions of their own pogroms and genocide.
@@solidoffortitude isn't that referring to Poland? What did they do?
In this episode, the victors were heavily implied to be the Vaskans. On the planet, the Vaskans were firmly in charge and allowed privileges forbidden to the Kyrians. The story of the warship Voyager was written by the losers, as a sort of "stab in the back myth", to explain their current situation.
this is one of the best episodes. Daves and voyagers. it is more relevant today as it ever was. i need to rewatch this.
This episode is excellent. No need of big explosions or stabbing. Just acting, and a nice script.
That’s what Star Trek always was ! 🤯🤯🤯
a brilliant review. Thank you
Obsessed with voyager growing up. My favourite episode
A timely analysis of a good episode. We are still trying to come to terms with the pasts of our countries. Truth (as far as we can accurately determine it) is ultimately the most important goal, followed closely by a reasonable contemporary perspective on that truth. Meaning, of course, that if our forefathers (or whatever gender-neutral term one feels good with) were imperfect vessels, that does not necessarily make everything they did back then wrong.
Pat, in Chicago
Yeah - This episode had quite the effect on me as a young man. It's something todays writers and producers wouldn't understand.
Dave, I'd like your opinion:
If "Star Trek" can have an alternative timeline, the Kelvin timeline, then couldn't "Star Trek" also have an alternative timeline, and instead of there being "Star Trek: Voyager" there was "Star Trek: Equinox"?
An alternate, and much more realistic Star Trek tv series based around the adventures of the crew of the Equinox, wherein they weren't painted as the bad guys and didn't meet such an ignominious end?
That is a Star Trek series I would thoroughly enjoy watching, _if_ and _provided that_ it was properly cast and had non-woke (preferably culturally vintage) writers.
If Voyager had, or Equinox would, learn from a science fiction book series called "Midshipman's Hope", they could have told some compelling stories.
"When diplomacy fails there's only one alternative: Violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." That never fails to crack me up.
I just watched this episode and yes, its pretty damn good. I can see why this is could be considered the best of Voyager. Those uniforms with the black tunic looked bad-assed.
Love this episode, the voyager cast playing evil versions of themselves was very funny, fantastic writing...
I love the final spin of this episode so much. A fitting ending, to be sure.
Also, don't judge me to harshly...
but Evil Janeway just does it for me.
This is still one of my favorite episodes of Trek in general, so glad to see I'm not alone :=)
This was the best Voyager episode in line with TNG Yesterday’s enterprise I really enjoyed these types of episodes thought provoking stuff.
Voyager never went to the mirror universe fully, but this is close as it gets.
I Enjoyed This Episode Immensely Myself, as I Have always seen how Historical Revisionism and Twisting Facts is used in Our World. It speaks to me at that Level.
This is one of my favorite episodes of Voyager for the same reason I love every episode of Futurama that looks at what people in the year 3000 think life was like in the 20th century. There's some vague points that are almost right and yet so fundamentally wrong that it makes you (or me at least) question our own view of history. A lot of what we know is from educated guessing and can be influenced by politics and culture of the time. Its interesting because not only could we be incredibly far off but realistically we'll probably never really know what the truth is.
I wasn't a big fan of Voyager when it first aired in the 1990s. I didn't hate it but I never really got into it. So I missed a lot of episodes. I'm glad now that I did. Now I get to watch Voyager as if its a new ST series and so much better than Picard or STD.
I don't need to watch this all the way to know that I agree with you, Dave. Instant like!!
Voyager was the Star Trek I adored. I was 12ish when it would come on at 1 am on fox 56 and I'd stay up and watch it as late night was practically the only time I got to put on what I wanted to watch.
This was a gem of an episode.
I watched all of Voyager while it was originally airing and this is definatly the standout episode I remember the most.
They learned their lesson and made a backup of the Doctor once they got him back. Far easier to make a backup than to create one from scratch.
Though to be honest, that still begs the question of the Doctor's matrix, the one that started to fail while Kes was still on board, and they had to sacrifice the Doc's diagnostic hologram of Doctor Zimmerman to transplant his matrix into the Doctor.
I agree .and have always followed ST all the way back to the 70s
Good old Star Trek that actually made people think about episodes and what they mean
This is one of my all time favorite trek episodes, I will be thinking about this one for a long time. Kinda hope to see this potential backup of the doctor in a later season of discovery. Making it back to federation space.
I've watched this episode twice... and it reminds me of B5s 4th season finale The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars, especially the third act.
Always appreciate your breakdowns of what I’m sure we all miss so much.
So good to hear positive reviews of the great Star Trek that was made years ago, because let's be honest there has been no good Star Trek since 2005.
Thanks for your retrospective discussion this great episode.
I hope you do more TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT reviews.
This is my favorite episode
Always liked this episode, some great lines.
the days when star trek could do an episode about revisionist history.....and do a damn good job of it
"Kathryn Janeway was being portrayed as a cold-blooded killer"
so what's the problem here?
Well technically she wasn't cold-blooded. More like lukewarm-blooded killer. She was somewhat reluctant about laying waste to hundreds of ships throughout the series.
@@keegobricks9734 To be fair, she may have become cold-blooded in Threshold, after a mutated Tom Paris turned her into a lizard thing and she laid eggs.
@@BioGoji-zm5ph such a dumb episode
@@turbofan450
especially since it could be avoided if they buffer in the transporter after preparing for it.
@Connection Lost
#Justice4Tuvix
EMH backup modual took the place of the EMH Repair program. When they patched the doctor with the graft. the EMH repair modual was blanked, and the doctors program was moved into the backup modual.
Your videos are awesome and thought provoking Dave. Keep up the good work.
the doctor is my favorite character, i think my fav was the one where he sings, it says alot about self actualization, and personal self worth.. also the song is touching
Great EP ~ story , Thank You for showing this ;
Love these videos from you Dave it reminds us all of a time when Star Trek was great
What a coincidence. I just watched a video that made me comment this quote.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
this episode is a gleaming jewel sandwiched between 3 incredibly dull episodes in either direction. its message still resonates today, and will likely continue to do so until we sort ourselves out as a global society.
I’ve watched this episode like 100+ times! Every time I’m 100% sucked in..totally entertained and it blows my mind! Such a brilliant episode! These days this is like a feature film compared to the nonsense modern trek is! 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Joe Libra I mean makes a massive difference! That’s why TOS, twilight zone are still rewatched and endlessly discussed! They had proper SF writers! These days to me old trek eps are like feature films, they are so well written, mind bending and entertaining. These new trek shows are completely disposable, forgettable ! They don’t understand what made trek so good! I don’t even consider them as Star Trek! 🤯🤯🤯🤯
Love this episode 💓
You’re right, this is a great episode
Ultimately it's about how people from different cultures can eventually come together to form cohesive societies - once they are willing to accept the damage they have done to each other in the past, and how those event still impact their present.
Episodes like this must be so much fun to make, gives everyone a chance to twirl their moustaches :D
I'm just shocked that the Federation wouldn't have made it to that part of the Galaxy in 700 years...
you never know what kind of enemy they encountered after the Borg, Dominion, etc.
They further they go, the thinner they spread....
Yeah it's not like they'd get new members and resources...
Certainly an excellent example of Picado's acting chops on the series, as well as Empericism vs Distortionism ^_^ .
The 'Warship Voyager' is still one of the coolest designs from this era of Trek; rather a pity that no model kit thereof exists.
And getting to see Seven as a Drone again, kicking arse with company... damn that was a great moment :D .
a storytelling so deep that Kurtzman could have only dreamed about it. nothing like this is present in modern episodes
2:30 maybe they made the backup after having to make another emh from scratch. After all, you only get burned by not having a backup one time, after which you create multiple backups.
The only thought I have about Voyager developing a EMH backup is when the Doctor was abducted in season 7's critical care (EMH vs HMO)... there wasn't a working backup then.
Hell... it would have been a twist if the EMH stolen wasn't "Doc", but the Equinox EMH left in "the Recycle Bin" since Equinox II.
Superb episode. Thank You for this reminder. :)