How Star Trek: Insurrection Could Have Been Vastly Improved
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- Опубликовано: 14 ноя 2024
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The deep space nine hook is great but O’Brien should come along as well.
O'Brian has to suffer!
Why would he come along? Yeah, they all knew each other, what would he be in the teleporter room? Lame.
Actually, neither should be going. The reason for Worf going is contrived at best. It's just SOME reason, which is better than the original film gave us. Really, the only reason Worf was in the film was because TNG movie. But in reality, there was nothing Worf could offer that Geordi couldn't.
Same goes for O'Brien. Don't forget that O'Brien held a much higher position on DS-9 and was, thus, integral to operations there. That would be like if in Star Trek VI, Kirk had asked Captain Sulu to leave command of the Excelsior because Enterprise needed an experienced helmsman for a tough mission.
Same goes double for Odo - head of security for Deep Space 9 - incidentally.
Ja kar did nothing wrong
@@TroyPacelli Party pooper lol. You're not wrong though
It's a shame we never saw Picard and sisko meet again
Yeah, Picard is probably someone Sisko needs to forgive.
@@CKN215 Actually Sisko did forgive Picard in the end of the DS9 pilot, but we never saw the 2 together again after that reconcilation which was kinda sad
If they used Dave's "we can't become evil to save good" that he suggests here for Picard to have, and then contrast that with Sisko's stance in the episode "In the Pale Moonlight".....ah, that movie would be a banger!
@jmwoods190 Sisko never forgave him, he just needed to cool the tension in order to get his command on DS9. Picard realized that he never forgave him, that's why Picard pretty much returned the tension and then both of them moved on.
@@CKN215 Ah no cause he shouldn't have even been holding a grudge in the first place
Picard did not choose to do those things. hold your grudge for the Borg not Picard.
This movie is fully documented and dissected in an eBook by the film’s writer Michael Piller: Fade In, found online (prior to his death). It walks through every step of story genesis and creation. The weaknesses (and strengths) are addressed and then some. You’re not wrong; connecting the story to DS9 and the Dominion War could have strengthened the story, and advertised DS9 to a larger audience.
Sadly Paramount and the franchise producers never really took full advantage (without going TOO far) of crossover episodes or interraction in the TNG film series - as such, they were mostly cameos (Janeway's in Nemesis, for example), passing references or convoluted contrivances more generally.
I think they were often too conservative in their approach to both the films and TV series, wasting several opportunities to make use of good writers to mostly flog the proverbial dead horse of certain subjects, characters (Data and Seven of Nine in particular, at the expense of fellow characters) and story arcs (e.g. the Borg) rather than take the time to find new ones that often could be the springboard to new TV series or film ideas.
The book series for TOS through to VGR was, at least until the wokeness and staleness started recently (again, about 4-5 years ago) to seep in, was far better at going down different paths, although even they could've done far more with a bit more imagination and courage.
I suppose it's a sign of the Western world where such things have been in decline (and now rapidly so) for some time now, probbaly starting around the mid-late 90s when this film was released. Ironically it followed a period of some of the best-ever creative TV and film making for decades - even when the SFX was discounted.
@@AndyG73 Can’t say I disagree. We’ve seen amazing storytelling, and then came off the mountain top. One can but hope and pray that we can recover good stories and storytelling again, to stave off any dark ages in the planning.
also in that eBook he describes that the movie's script suffered due to constant back and forths between Michael Piller/Rick Berman/Paramount/Patrick Stewart & Brent Spiner, I don't think anyone was 100% happy with the story, but it seems they ran out of time and had to start filming.
@@KABZProductions Yep, welcome to Hollywood, and the struggle with egos!
@@KABZProductions Bingo ! I think this explains the entire demise of Star Trek in its waning years ( I don't consider anything after 2005 to be true Star Trek).
Like most productions, there are always creative conflicts, but because Star Trek relied so heavily on writing, extended bickering was a death blow.
I think most of the "back and forth" was caused by Stewart/Spiner, emphasis on Stewart.
I fiercely disagree with you on two points.
One: The the Federation "owned" the planet and the Ba'ku were simply trespassing. This is false, at least in context. Firstly, the Baku have been settled on the planet for at least 300 years, yet the Federation, using the commonly accepted foundation date of 2161, hasn't been around for even 220 years. That would mean that the Baku would have had a prior claim of over 80 years! Now you could argue that the Briar Patch was owned by one of the Federation's founding members like the Andorians or Tellarites and thus it was brought into the Federation with an earlier claim. However, that would mean the Briar Patch was fairly close to the Federation core worlds, something that is never remote indicated, thus is unlikely. Secondly, if the Federation is even partially as 'just' as it is often implied to be (at least at the best of times), then they would respect prior claims to planets in their space. The claims the Federation have to their space are due to treaties and understandings they have established with civilizations and species such as the Klingons and Romulans. These agreements, however, are only between the Federation and these other participates, not with the Ba'ku, and as stated as before, if the Federation is as 'just' as it normally is implied to be, then they have no true legal claim to the planet by their own laws.
Second: Since the Ba'ku didn't evolve on the planet, only colonized it, the Prime Directive doesn't apply to them. That is not how the Prime Directive works! The Prime Directive is meant to prevent the Federation/Starfleet from interfering with the natural development of alien cultures and that doesn't simply end when the culture is warp capable. Remember, the Federation couldn't interfere with the Klingon Civil War, as it was officially an internal affair until Romulan interference was proven. Other examples are in episodes such as "Thirty Days" and "The Masterpiece Society". While these examples certain took place outside of Federation space, again I point out that what is established as Federation space is not necessarily total and unilateral, just what is most commonly agreed to in treaties with the various major and minor powers. People isolated on and sole possessors of single worlds that have never treated with the Federation would probably be under different rules.
Other than that, good video. I am a fan of your work.
The counter argument to the first objection is obviously that the UFP has fought costly and deadly wars - and are in the midst of one as this film takes place - which maintain the status quo that to whatever extent allowed the Ba'ku to remain unmolested for a good chunk of the time they lived on the planet. The counter-counter argument is that the Son'a do business with the enemy of the Federation at this point (The Dominion). They produce the White which is used to strengthen and subjugate the Jem'hadar, for God's sake. If the Feds hypothetically lost that war then the Son'a would be beholden to no one. Ru'afo displayed that this was a distinct possibility, considering that he murdered the Admiral as soon as his plans faced imminent ruin. A "partner" like that is plenty apt to stab the Feds in the back at the first opportunity while continuing to actively work with the Dominion against the Alpha Quadrant powers. The moral question and the movie in general isn't bad, but there are a lot of plot holes and problems with the premise, especially to those who know the wider state of the galaxy during the timeframe that Insurrection takes place.
I’d add that The Federation as a whole was not aware of the Baku’s history as an advanced race…the corrupt admiral may have been aware of this due to his involvement with the Sona leaders (I haven’t watch the movie in a long time), but it was not public knowledge in the Federation until it was discovered by Data and the crew of the Enterprise. Therefore it makes logical sense that the Federation would treat the Baku as a primitive race.
@@The_Lucent_Archangel Are you responding to my comments on this video or simply providing your own comment. If the first, I'm afraid I don't see how your response relates to my comment and I would like to have additional clarification. Please...
@@lanebowles8170 100% agree with you. The Federation's various member worlds join voluntarily and are equals in the Federation's democratic society. Those 600 Ba'ku have complete sovereignty over the entire planet, unless you consider the Son'a exiles participants in a civil war.
I completely agree. Instead of the squatters with corn it is more along the lines of the native Americans and their land. The Federation was not interested until there was something in it for them.
Story by Rick Berman & Michael Piller
Screenplay by Michael Piller
Additional Script Material by David Cullen
That would look great up on a 60 foot screen!
Can you imagine Admiral Dougherty confronting Captain Picard after he defied his orders and saying to him 'Sheer f*cking hubris!' ? No, neither can I.
i still have issues understanding what "hubris" means
@@Zontar82 Arrogance=hubris
I'd always taken it as read that in the Star Trek future, the stronger profanity was just no longer part of language or culture, and part of a bygone age.
Thanks Kurtsman for completely spoiling and tainting that.
@@grantlandis2747 thanks :)
who's Admiral Doughy?
Dude, I like your videos in general, but there’s something about this one that I need to point out. If the Ba’ku were living on this planet for at least 300 years, then they’ve been there way longer than the Federation has been in that part of town. In fact, I think that might even predate the founding of the Federation. So there’s no way that the Federation owns this planet just because it’s now within Federation space. I always assumed that there are many planets with pre-warp civilizations within Federation space that don’t even know there’s anyone else out there. The Federation leaves them alone because of the Prime Directive. Also, there’s no reason why there wouldn’t be some planets with warp capable civilizations within Federation space that have not become members because they simply do not want to. You must be a willing partner to join. It cannot be forced upon you. Even if you’re surrounded by other willing members.
I do like your other viewpoints in this video though.
P.S.
Sorry for the heavy use of “Federation” in this comment. Lol 😆
Exactly, next he will be defending Oliver Cromwell. Northern Ireland was legally English land after all.
Also, they were not against sharing the planet if I recall. There was an option to create colonies/settlements on other parts of the planet that would also benefit from the radiation. What they didn't want was to leave the planet they've settled before the Federation even existed. The whole first half of the video is terribly argumented.
Yes, that's it. The Federation was founded in 2161 and this story was set in 2375, so only 214 years after the founding.
You’re right but that doesn’t detract from how much better this film would have been
It doesn't just predate the Federation, it's only 3 years after First Contact. I think United Earth government didn't even exist yet.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" was never the philosophy of Star Trek. It was something Spock said was a logic conclusion. However, the old Enterprise leadership mutinied to save Spock precisely because they believed the needs of the few (or the one) outweighed the needs of the many.
We so often quote the old Musketeer line "one for all and all for one" without really thinking about what it means. The "one for all" component we almost take for granted, but really think about what "all for one" requires. Potentially the sacrifice of hundreds to save a single individual.
Today, we are living through an age when increasingly authoritarian governments strip us of rights in the name of protecting the many. It may be counterintuitive, but the more a culture insists the good of the many outweighs the good of the few the worse off the many will be.
That's the way it is.
It is completely natural and human when a person chooses his family instead of many thousands or millions.
Today they want to convince us that this is all wrong. Especially in western civilization. That we have to give up our culture and peoples for the good of others.
This is nothing more than socialist tactics.
This is how the communists spoke 100 years ago and steered the masses, and today we do it again.
Anyone who insists on individuality is now anti-social and must be fought and is supposedly the problem. All manipulation by a few in order to have control over the masses.
Back then it was kings and emperors and dictators and today it is politicians and their backers.
I don't think there is any clear moral answer to these ongoing questions. It's always a compromise between the needs of the many and rights of the individual.
I so love this message. It parallels what I have been saying for decades.
In Star Trek III, they mutiny for the needs of the one. In Star Trek IV, Spock's mom rubs his nose in it, and by the end of that movie, Spock is advising for the rescue of Chekov in spite of it endangering the many, even the mission.
The correct phrase is: "The _rights_ of the one outweigh the needs of the many".
This is perhaps core to the cultures of western civilization.
The key to this is, imo, is that Man is a tribal animal. Not socialist, not solitary. We are neither bees, nor ants, nor tigers.
Our natural social form, imo, is the tribe; a small group, say 600, where everyone can be acquainted with everyone else, and where everyone matters to everyone else (because they know them, personally).
Where the 599 will go to war with the Federation for the sake of the 1.
cool and fun anti-mask take at the end lol
I caught that too, but since the Ba'Ku were arrogant #%^$ then I really don't care what happens to them.
The original ST: Insurrection could've been easily solved by just making medical/physical therapy stations outside a 100 mile radius of where the Baku were.
There's only 600 of them after 300+ years so they're not breeding quickly (and in some cases not at all) and they as a species have fully committed to a ludite existence, so the expansion out if that 100 mile radius is likely never going to happen and if it does it'll take multiple centuries to occur.
Yep - The Federation has been duped by the Sona'a! There's no reason to go through the rigmarole they go through.
Remember though that the story actually hinges on the lead Sona'a's hatred of and need for revenge against his parents.
@@franohmsford7548 But that still doesn't make sense because the Briar Patch is well within Federation space. Normally, Ruafo would've been compensated by Federation higher-ups for him discovering it and then said higher-ups would dispatch Starfleet to oversee any operations. At best Ruafo would've been brought in as something of a consultant, at worst his involvement would've ended with the compensation.
@@punishedbearzerker5400 The Federation Commodore {he was a Commodore right?} is clearly 1. Not abiding by Federation rules and regulations and 2. At the very least in the Pay of the Sona'a {getting kickbacks}.
I would say that this operation has not gone through proper oversight!
Hell, set up on the opposite side of the planet, or in orbital stations. If the Federation was too squeamish about asserting its rights, they could utilise more than enough space for some clinics without the Ba'ku ever even knowing they were there.
@@franohmsford7548 Admiral Dougherty wasn't taking kickbacks. Bribery as we understand it wouldn't even be worth trying in the Federation's post-scarcity liberal democracy. The So'na were exploiting Dougherty's existential despair over the death of his wife and his own mortality.
the entire movie plot could have been avoided if the federation built a hospital and convalescence resort for wounded war veterans to heal in a remote area of the planet, they could still have their star base off world, for military purposes, while not committing atrocities themselves. or even train the baku to be a medical apothecary type culture that takes in wounded and suffering people, heals them and sends them on their way.
The problem with this idea is that it take years for the radiation to work according to the Ba'ku and Son'a. Through it seems to work much faster on the Enterprise crew, so that a contradiction between what the Ba'ku say and what the Enterprise crew experience. That could be down to different physiology.
I think they missed a golden opportunity to explore this in Picard, Riker and Troi should have took their son to this planet to try and save him. An then Picard could have met up with Anij, who has remain ageless.
Riker an Troi stays on the planet to bring up their daughter.
They could have even weave in Artim into the wider story about AI and how he started studying AI and positronic nets after he met data and became a authority on in the subject in the last 20 years.
The Baku have like 1 village. On an entire planet. Unless that's the glory zone where it works, I should think something 50 miles away wouldn't bother them at all. Make that planet the next Risa except for a zone of 200 miles surrounding their village and you've solved their problems.
If the Prime Directive doesn't apply to the Ba'ku because they aren't indigenous to their planet then it shouldn't apply to the Romulans either since they aren't indigenous to theirs.
Yeah but the Romulans are a little more difficult to move.
Why would the prime directive apply to the romulans, they are a warp capable spacefaring civilisation?
That’s an iffy one, Romulans migrated thousands of years ago and have populated both romulas and Remus. It would break treaty and end in bloodshed
You're being too literal. It doesn't apply not simply because their are not indigenous to the planet, but because 1: they are a space faring species, on par with the Federation technologically. And 2: The fact that they originated elsewhere means it is not their natural evolution to be immortal. They acquired that ability by settling this planet. Not being from this planet alone is not what makes them ineligible to the protection of the Prime Directive.
The prime directive has 2 parts.
1) Dont interfere with the natural evolution of pre-warp societies that are indigenous to a planet.
2) Dont interfere in the internal affairs of a post-warp society. As long as these affairs are strictly internal. (see Klingon Civil war, where the Federation only joined, when the Romulans started aiding one side, when it became a galactic issue now and not internal)
I would also add Sisko and the DS9 crew and turn it into a hybrid DS9/TNG film. Sisko, whose been on the front line takes the "win the war" attitude that could contrast with Picard's "not this way" view. Doing this could give some more depth and a better means of closure for the Sisko-Picard relationship.
Exactly, Picard's "not this way" vs Sisko's "in the pale moonlight".....😮
I like the storyline... it would tie in with the events of the time on DS9.
F. Murray Abraham could've played a captain of another Sovereign class, making the battle in the Briar Patch a mirror match. Maybe even referred to as the Enterprise E's sister ship. The internal conflict of Starfleet given clear visual representation. In order to visually diverge the two, Abraham's Sovereign class could have the first prototype technology from the planet, changing its color scheme.
This, Especially if you took the time to show how the new "Columbia" Sovereign was fresh out of space dock with a willing and eager decorated 1st officer. To contrast the weary, battle trodden riker and enterprise.
I was always annoyed at the distinct lack of Sovereign-class starships shown in DS9, and especially zero crossovers with the Enterprise-E - though I suspect that was mainly down to 'Sir' Patrick Stewart (and perhaps Brent Spiner) not wanting to 'lower themselves' to doing TV work guest-spots - at least not without them being paid (then) ridiculous amounts of money.
@@AndyG73 I also found it annoying and a waste that we never got to see any of the Enterprise E's sister ships such as for example the Sovereign (it seems to be tradition for Starfleet to name the first ship of its class after the class) appear on Deep Space Nine.
The model existed, the sets exist, why not use them.
And I remember prior to the release of Insurrection that a lot of fans really wanted to see the USS Prometheus again that first appeared in the Voyager episode "Message in a Bottle".
Imagine how cool, though perhaps a little ridiculous, a fight between the Enterprise E and the Prometheus using her multi-vector assault mode would have been.
@@AndyG73 unfortunately you are probably right. And paramount wanted the E to only be a movie ship.
Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner lent their voices to many, many games and media for fans. Off the top of my head, I can think of a half-dozen games in this time period in which Patrick Stewart voiced Picard and games were most certainly lower-prestige.
I think that some random pRick thought audiences would be confused by "another Enterprise...". They only did the Intrepid one time.
I quite liked the villain but he was severely underused and the whole film was far too bright! The DS9 addition and the backdrop to the Dominion War is a great shout :)
"Why would Starfleet go through the trouble of deceiving the Baku with invisible suits, a duckblind, and a large holodeck ship with a cloaking device if they knew the Baku had warp capability and weren't indigenous to the planet?"
Because they didn't know. They assumed the Baku were just like any other primitive race until one of them told Picard their story.
I like your changes to the story. However, instead of the Enterprise having to fight simply other Federation ships in the Briar Patch, they send Sisko and the Defiant...who aren't exactly fully aware of the situation and they force a conflict until a third Federation ship shows up and inadvertently exposes everything to Sisko who then helps the Enterprise.
Sending the Defiant to battle the Enterprise is a brilliant idea.
Yes. This. Sisko vs Riker would be awesome and then they team up against a heavy fleet. Would make it 10x better along w the suggestions in the video.
I agree with you 100% except about sending the Defiant. While that would have been a fun thing to watch, the Defiant as awesome as she is, is no match for a Sovereign class Starship. The Enterprise shouldn't break a sweat fighting a tiny ship like the Defiant.
@@mark2038 I highly doubt the Defiant can do much here. Remember, the Lakota went shot for shot with the Defiant, and that was a 100-year-old design (though refitted with upgrades), while the Sovereign is newer, meaner, and a hell of a lot bigger.
The Defiant class packs a strong punch (for its size), the Sovereign class is just too big and durable. Unless the Defiant uses the cloak to launch an effective surprise attack while the Enterprise's shields are down, the Enterprise will take this with only minor damage...
Even though Sisko was a badass, and deserved his own movie !
have the defiant leading a pair of Akiras maybe, since that ship class was a fan favorite at the time, and is functionally that time period's successor to the trusty Miranda Class? the point of having the defiant there is making the fight more personal, we don't want to see either side loose.
also, instead of making the metaphasics weaponisable as a bomb or something, make them specifically toxic to the Jem'Hadar. maybe it's regenerative effect is disruptive to their rapid aging and natural healing facor, and the federation want to use it to disable a number of breeding worlds the dominion have set up, destroying the dominion's ability to rapidly replenish manpower. (as just building bigger bombs is a bit out of character for the UFP).
The Ba'ku Planet may be in Federation Controlled space, but the Ba'ku never joined the Federation. Doesn't a planet and people have to apply and be vetted to join. Also, if Ba'ku settled the Planet 300 years prior that would predate the formation of the federation by nearly a century.
The Federation has the authority to claim space and uninhabited planets, so long as those planets aren't inhabited by a native population. If there *are* natives, then they need to be warp-capable to officially join the Federation as a mutual partner. Otherwise, the Prime Directive applies and Starfleet goes on it's merry way. The problem here stems from a few factors, mostly being that while the Ba'ku may have been on the planet for 300 years (which is only two generations for them apparently) they WERE warp capable, but never layed claim to the planet officially and simply settled there.
The planet doesn't belong to them in the eyes of the Federation unless they made an actual claim from some form of authority, like say the government of their Homeworld. Think if... Columbus tried to claim the new world in his OWN name instead of that of Spain, set up his own little colony and stayed there for one generation. No government in the world would've recognized that claim, even if said government didn't exist at the time he found it, and would've happily kicked out Chris and his buddies to set up their own claim to the land.
This is what I was thinking
The baku were there first... so fuck the feds
@@ericchung3177 So, the Federation should go Full Colonialism? Hey guys! You've lived here longer than our country exists, but we own your land/planet now (because we say so- and because we have this big phasers that also say so), and guess what? We want those shiny resources- so get the fuck out!
That's what you think the UFP should've done?
@@Sephiroth144 I’m giving an alternate perspective from the standard by which an actual situation like this could be addressed. I don’t give a shit what the Federation should or shouldn’t do, I prefer the Dominion anyway.
I love the fact that someone had finally called First Contact exceptional
Only when compared to the other TNG films. But there is a lost TNG film that perfectly captured the feel of the TV show, and IMO was the best TNG film ever made, far better than First Contact. It was called "Interstellar"
It was exceptionally annoying.
@@apreviousseagle836 Two years late. Someone who thinks like I do. Chris Nolan or his clone should have taken over the franchise instead we got JJ. Star Trek: Interstellar sounds right. I wanted Nolan to create a new visual language for ST. Keep the exploration and the human condition. Jettison everthingelse. No more holodeck, replicator, Klingons, colour uniforms, federation, warp, etc..... Keep it grounded like Interstellar, BSG, Lost in space, and expanse.
@@sitoudien9816 The Expanse was great. It had things I didn't like, but it hit more than it missed. It still didn't keep to the spirit of Star Trek though, which Interstellar did in spades. Star Trek writers forgot that Star Trek is about the desire of human beings to explore the unknown, and some of the best TNG episodes deal with this idea (Where No One Has Gone Before, Q-Who, Where Silence Has Lease, Remember Me, etc etc). Trek since the TNG movie, and especially with the garbage Trek after Enterprise is all about overbloated space battles and juvenile relationships in the crews of their ships, and cringe attempts at "sci-fi" storytelling when there is any at all.
I would have loved to see Chris Nolan give Star Trek a shot. A trilogy from him would have been outstanding.
I love your ideas! I was disappointed they did not include any DS9/Dominion war connection. It was a difficult movie to sit through after seeing First Contact.
What is so good about First Contact? Nothing happens and they just sit in the woods.
13:13 What if Section 31 had some involvement here? Replace the Sona with Section 31 as the devil Admiral Dourty (if I spelled that right) shakes hands with and you have a truly malicious entity that we've seen before in DS9 that will stop at nothing to achieve their goals and we know has friends HIGH up in Starfleet.
It would be a huge tie in with DS9, a theme you would have already established, and if the actor was available maybe even Miles Obrien could have joined them as a temporary return to the Enterprise and having already had some experience with Section 31, well, this thought gives me the chills!
Good idea and it’s makes sense.
In fact, why wasn’t this done? Section 31 can be explained to those who hadn’t seen Ds9
I totally agree with you here. Man, giving this some ties to DS9 and the Dominion War would have rocked.
I just have a love hate relationship with this film. It puts the main characters of the Enterprise as hippocrates. The story and situation is exactly if not then very similar to the situation that birthed the Maquis. The same people with the same thoughts and reactions that Picard was acting upon. Yet in the last season of TNG season he utterly despised the Maquis. So its basically showing insurrection is bad if you do it, but its morally ok when I do it....? Did the writers intentionally wanted to make the Enterprise crew look like Aholes?, because it worked.
"I'm surprised at you Mr Dickenson; a rebellion is never illegal in the first person, 'OUR rebellion.'; it is only illegal in the third person, 'THEIR rebellion'. "- Ben Franklin, "1776"
It's different when Picard can get his duck wet with a hot milf
The fact we never got a Dominion War movie 😢
It is hard to believe these moves came out a quarter of a century ago. It makes me feel so old.
However i would take these TNG movies over anything we have seen these last ten years.
Prime Directive applies. The Baku had been there for Decades with Federation knowledge and apparent approval. Indigenous or not, it was their planet.
The problem with your suggestion Dave is that we know that the Federation wouldn't commit the crimes you suggest, even if the rewards were huge. Whilst their acts in Insurrection are deliberately logical and reasonable, and the whole movie is built on a moral standpoint that Picard takes against them. Ultimately Picard is *right* that a core ideal of the federation is that it should respect the rights of individual ahead of the common good. But it's hard to argue that in this case that the ideal shouldn't be bent.
God forbid they should start by trying to negotiate with the Bakku.
plot twist:
the warmongering Federation admiral suggested towards end of the video is actually a Changeling
O:
I’m with the Baku here. Destroying them to ‘grow the population’ artificially has disaster wrote all over it
i agree
The sci-fi reviewer SFDebris had an interesting suggestion: have Riker and Worf arrive in the movie having come back from the front of the Dominion War, grim from seeing the conflict up close. And along with LaForge, who's all for new regenerative healing technologies, to be all for uprooting the Ba'ku if it can help so many people recover from horrific wounds. Meanwhile, Picard, Data and Troi are each against it for their own reasons; Picard comes to believe the idea violates Starfleet's oaths, Data for moral reasons, and Troi for empathetic ones.
This leads to some tense conversations, which lead to arguments, and eventually Picard, Data and Troi go rogue and assist the Ba'ku in evading capture. Meanwhile Riker, Worf and LaForge on board the Enterprise trying to help bring them in... with Crusher unsure who to support, likely staying on the Enterprise because she sees the value of new medical science, but eventually decides to help Picard out of ethical reasons. Turning the story into a kind of 'family fight'. Riker vs. Picard, Picard vs. Crusher, Riker vs. Troi, Worf vs. Troi, Data vs. Geordi... friends and mentors, now on opposite sides.
In this version, the So'na have a place as the eventual antagonists that Picard and Riker team up again at the end to stop - Riker discovering how far they're willing to go, and this eventually pushes him into going against Admiral Dougherty too.
Damn! That's a great idea!
That sounds better than the actual movie.
A point about the Baku being on "Federation land":
1) The planet they are on is in the Briar Patch. Considering some Baku are over 300 years old, if their regular pre-"special radiation" life span is similar to humans, we can assume that they moved to that planet about 200 to 250 years ago
2) 200 to 250 years ago would be around the NX Enterprise time, at which point the Briar patch was uncharted (but known to exist) by the Klingons, and totally new to Starfleet/Earth. Federation didn't exist yet
3) Thus we can assume that the Briar Patch became Federation space well AFTER the Baku settled on that planet
4) Another reason why the Federation was there later than the Baku was that the Federation obviously had no clue that the Baku were originally a highly technological society. If the Federation were there at the time of the Baku settling there, they would probably know the Baku are warp capable. But the Federation obviously assumes the Baku are the native civilization on the Planet.
Hence, the Baku, by any measure of today AND in fictional Federation law, would have what we would today call the right to self determination. Their planet doesn't "belong" to the Federation. If the Federation took control of it, it would be colonialism/imperialism, i.e. taking land from native indigenous people.
On top of that, why cant' the federation just scan it for a decade, and learn to replicate the them, and then help billions that way?
Yeah.
The opening argument was so bad it undermined the rest of the video for me.
From an ethical pov The Ba'ku could be held to have some obligation to share their healing radiation, but The Federation have no right to coerce them into sharing, still less to deceive them and then steal it.
I want to stress that I always enjoyed Insurrection, even back in 1998. That said, I agree, the biggest thing it was always missing was a stronger connection to the Dominion War.
Further, in my opinion, O’Brian should have been on the Defiant with Worf in First Contact and Sela should have been either the villain or a side villain in Nemesis, which also should have featured Spock and been more about the Romulans. Adding the Remans felt shoehorned after 35ish years of history already established.
The TNG films were as a whole not as strong as the TOS films, but I miss that era of Star Trek so much. The franchise will never be that good ever again. It’s too broken to be fixed at this point.
Interesting you've mentioned Sela- I've always thought that she should've been the co-antagonist to Soran(instead of Lursa & B'etor) in Generations helming a Romulan Warbird- a formidable enemy to the Enterprise D. Since Data defeated her twice during the TNG series, her resurgence would've greatly enhanced Data's emotional chip storyline.
It was always criminal that the Enterprise E played so little part in the Dominion War.
Ok the Baku inaligy also doesn’t make sense a the Baku we’re their way before the federation was even formed, a proper inalogy is if a bunch a settler found a new land but then discovering their was a crap ton indinous people already living their
Ok so u really don’t get what indigenous means do you think that the all native Americans literally just magically appeared in America without originating in Asia when Russia and Alaska were connected in the frozen ocean? Literally every human originated from the same people
But it also really doesn’t make sense why they want to relocate the Baku being that it is seen to be a pretty huge planet so theirs no reason why they couldn’t just live in coexistence
Then again CF would probably just whine about wanting to enforce cultural cleansing or what ever bull crap he thinks
Slavery is also the needs of the many without the needs of the few as long as their is less slaves than citizens than it must be fine
Thank you for the brilliant video about Star Trek. I love Star Trek with all my heart and soul! I love all Trek "New and Old"! If you are a Trekkies you do too!
The federation weren't an empire. Planets requested to join. They weren't taken or annexed just by virtue of being located within a border star fleet could conquer and control by force. The foundation of your whole argument isn't just flawed. It's completely wrong. As is your analogy about trespassers stealing corn. It's whole inappropriate for this situation.
I don't think the Federation "owns" any of the planets within their "territory." They aren't feudal lords. The planets are part of the Federation, enjoying the protections of the collective. The Federation just doesn't march in and "take" what they think they need, and kick anyone off of any planet., so your premise the Federation can just kick the Baku off their planet is incorrect.
Apparently Michael pillar wanted Insurrection to be tied to the Dominion War, but Rick Berman said no
Berman was always an idiot...
Damnit Rick Berman
Berman probably also said no to connecting Shinzon to Tasha Yar. How else would the Romulans have known to clone the great Picard a couple decades prior, when he was only a lieutenant?
@@michaelcroff7097 apparently there were talks of including her in the film, but they decided to cut it out
I can see why the decision was made to keep the Dominion war out of the movie. Here are a few reasons:
1. It would tie the movie to a particular time in Trek history, which might have made it seem quickly dated or irrelevant. Removing this makes the movie more timeless.
2. It adds unnecessary complication to the story. Good storytelling should always strip away any elements that don't directly affect the main story.
3. Bringing the "Dominion war" into this film undermines the film's plot. Even if this film has a 'happy ending', it reminds us that there isn't really a happy ending. So it's depressing.
4. It creates a barrier to the mainstream audiences who don't watch DS9. It excludes them unnecessarily.
5. People don't watch movies to get 'more of the same', they watch movies for something NEW and DIFFERENT. So even hardcore DS9 fans may not want to see "more Dominion war" when they watch this. They come to this for a change of pace.
6. I believe each Trek series works best when it has its own themes and identity, rather than encroaching on each other's storylines and creating one big, confusing, interconnected continuity!
7. Finally, we must consider the tone and brand of TNG franchise. It's lighter and gentler than DS9, associated with optimistic utopian escapism, rather than gritty hardship. So this movie keeps the TNG franchise on-brand and on-tone!
This would also call back to _Errand of Mercy,_ when the Federation attempted to prevent the Klingons from using a neutral planet as a military base... by setting up there first.
I’d suggest, instead of the radiation in the rings as a weapons-grade material, that the radiation instead has deleterious effects on changelings. The planet would, instead, be a Raven Rock for Federation and Starfleet higher-ups to conduct the war in total secrecy and security.
It would also double as a safe haven for at risk Federation civilians.
Mate from now on...In my head cannon...THIS is how that movie went down. Love it and thank you so much for sharing. Please do this with other movies
The federation didn’t know that they weren’t indigenous to the planet until picard discovered that the bacu and the sona were the same people. Secondly, when did the bacu colonize the planet? Did they move to the planet before the federation had expanded to include that part of space? if the bacu were there before the federation annexed that region of space, i would think that the bacu’s claim to the planet takes priority. it doesn’t really matter if the bacu were indigenous to the planet or not.
Yes, that's the point of the story. Does the prime directive count and how many are few enough to make it count. 600, 10.000 or 1 million. You ask all the right questions, but you don't get the story?
No, the Federation don't own the planet, it is in the area of the Federation, that is all. It's like a farm in Kansas is on the territory of the US, but it is owned by the farmer, only a single person. Yes, the US could take the land, but it's not that easy and it is not the decision of a single person or one member of parliament. And that is also, what the movie is about.
Last, the dominion is a DS9 story not TNG. Yes it is the same franchise, but TNG is TNG.
I think Insurrection is one of the best Star Trek movies beside Star Trek IV. It is not about war or a big evil villain, it is about normal (sci-fi) life problems. Look what are the best episodes of the TNG show. The inner light, the old Enterprise, even Borg, good stories don't need this stupid, evil villain like Nemesis or others. Insurrection is a deep story about life and doing the right things.
I love it. Were they trying not to require the audience to have seen DS9? That show is more appreciated now, but at the time that logic of separating from it probably made sense... but I totally agree about the missed potential from not including it.
In fact, given the lengths Sisko went to to "win the war at any cost" I.E. In the Pale Moonlight, there's a very compelling conflict between Sisko and Picard that could have been great (I mean, or awful if executed badly). Would Sisko bust out the Defiant and oppose Picard, and actually try to help relocate the Baku? How about a face-off scene strongly resembling when they "met in battle" when Picard was Locutis in the DS9 pilot. Would they each start to switch their thinking, as Sisko realizes that he's losing his humanity, and Picard comes to grips with the true cost of war, or maybe the threat of the Dominion invading the Briar Patch first. Loyalty issues for Worf.. I can see him like "you're both acting like children." A Guinan scene (I know) with Kira or Sisko. Data and Odo on being human. Fan service?
Ok so it's basically a DS9/TNG hybrid movie at this point, and potentially impossible to avoid being too dark with main characters fighting each other. Also with potential for Avengers-like character sprawl, too much fan service, and over-hyping. Still, I might re-watch that movie today... and I have no real desire to re-watch Insurrection now.
Very interesting listening, leaving a supportive comment.
I haven’t seen much of old Star Trek, still enjoy listening to fans talk about it.😊
I love this comment, as it is a reflection of generational changes.
As a man born in 1980, I still very much see TNG, DS9, VOY and to a lesser degree ENT as new Trek (certainly the first 3 as the golden age of Trek), with the original (Which my brother and I used to watch on a b/w TV prior to 1987) as old Trek.
And with STD, STLD, STP as new new Trek - although I’m not a huge fan of these new series. I watch them, but don’t really enjoy them as they lack the intelligence, the science, and fun of the original or golden age of Trek.
They look good in terms of effects, but has any thought gone into the stories? STD s2 is by far the best of the series and that’s mostly because of Pike and Spock - (and I am looking forward to Strange New Worlds) but it’s not without its many flaws. s1 was just messy (all first seasons take time to find their feet) and s3 really… I don’t have anything good to say about s3. It has some great actors and moments, but is overshadowed by not being Trek. Phasers and photon torpedoes does not a Star Trek series make (I intentionally phrased it this way).
STP - great character and actor, but a 10 ep arc that really could have been condensed to 3ep; as there was just so much nonsense thrown in. Bad French impersonations, unnecessary heists, positronic slaves races that serve the federation and ultimately rebel (With exception of an ep in Voy, Trek really doesn’t believe in the Battlestar Galactica’s or Terminators/ Matrix rise of the machine against humanity plot device), being able to reconstruct Data’s entire personality or OS from a single fragment (thats not how technology works), killing Bruce Maddox - for no good reason, the android race even knowing about this other race of machines hell bent on killing and wiping out everything in the galaxy… I mean - what??.
And STLD - has never made me laugh.
The new new series are just very un-trek (In my opinion) and going back to my point (which I slightly digressed from) it’s interesting to see how TNG, DS9 and VOY are now considered old Trek.
@@harrisonmassaro1199
Aww thank you for responding back and I’m glad you got amusement.
Back a long time ago my older brother loved to watch Star Trek on TV when it was airing. I was to little to know what season it was. But I do remember Captain Janeway. Whichever story arch that is in the Star Trek universe, I watched bits when he was watching.
I appreciate you telling me about everything, it’s all so interesting.
On Tik Tok I was also recommended to watch Star Trek from other fans and get caught up, starting with the original OG.
Imagine a ST version of the MCU. Cross overs and separate movies all intertwined oh man.
Lower Deck + Voyager crossover? Yay.....
@@dancooper4733 booooo
Star Trek during the TNG was essentially what the MCU is now.
@Newsbender a DS9 movie set after s7, a Voyager movie after it got home. Voyager sent through the Bajoran wormhole. The Titan movie, the possibilities were endless but the studio didn't have the vision
I don't know if I buy that analogy. Because for one thing the Ba'ku have been on that planet not only since before it was in federation territory, they were there before the Federation was formed. Furthermore, just because my house is in the United States, doesn't mean the United States owns my house. The Federation doesn't have the power to just annex inhabited planets just because they're in their territory. There's still a lot of autonomy in the Federation.
Confused Matthew, that's old school! I think another thing he said was that the Baku weren't even there specifically for the life-extending radiation, but rather, it was just a nice planet that fit with their simple living philosophy, so really they could have lived anywhere similar.
2:50 The Baku don't want to keep all the metaphasic radiation to themselves. They don't have a problem with other people visiting the planet. They just want theiir inherent right to not be kicked out of their home.
I don't agree with this video Dave, and here's why:
The Ba'ku were not some "squatters" in Federation Space that they just discovered, they lived there for 300 years before the Federation even knew the planet existed. They were also not "hogging the metaphasic stuff to themselves" they just didn't want to be moved off of the planet they've known as home for 300 years. Picard's moral philosophy toward the Ba'ku is entirely consistent with episodes like "Man of the People" when Ves Alkar justified killing Counselor Troi by saying that he was saving thousands of other lives. "You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think it's connected to some higher purpose" Picard said. I also dislike the idea of the Federation making territorial claims on planets with pre-warp civilizations as if they don't matter. Further, they didn't know that the Ba'ku were warp-capable until Picard actually talked to them, because that was their first time interacting with them.
Exactly. Beat me to it.
That's a fantastic idea and a much better and coherent story.
I never understood the hatred of insurrection. People moaned about First contact and Generations being too dramatic as it's a film, then complained that insurrection was too much like an episode rather than a film.
I enjoyed it for a nice feeling, well flowing film.
The Ba'Ku were @#$heads which is why I hate the film.
@@apreviousseagle836 won’t shit on the other guys opinion, I’m glad he enjoyed it and wish I’d enjoyed it more. I agree with you, The Baku seemed like a load of Apple Store employees on a weekend retreat.
@@andyelphick The reason I say it is because it is literally the one thing that completely makes the movie unwatchable for me. Not so much the "preppy white folks" stuff, which is kind of annoying, but the fact that these people are pompous arrogant pricks. They fix Data, and Picard looks surprised. So they go off on their little soapbox "What? Picard, you thought we were some backwater hicks? We're actually more advanced than you are. But we're so righteous, we gave it up for a peaceful life....." blah blah. Had I been Picard, I'd have go "Ok cool, enjoy your life. Crew, all to beam up back to the Enterprise, we're hitting Risa for a couple of weeks!" and let them defend themselves. The insult to injury was the fact that Picard was doing it all because he wanted to bone the Ba'ku lady. Who wrote this fucking nonsense? Oh yeah, Patrick Stewart.
I think its because there's more than one reason, and it depends on WHY you like Star Trek. You like it because of the action? Its an okay movie. You like it because of the way the Federation is a post-scarcity government based on the ideals of peace and cooperation? Then why are they so out of it here, and why can't they just make the radiation with their replicators?
You like it because its scifi and really sciency? Well, there's little science here. Its mostly political questions.
@@apreviousseagle836 Tbh I never really noticed that. But I do actually agree with you now haha. It's not my favourite Trek movie, but I never really hated it, always been a good background film for me. But Patrick has always been a bit too preachy whilst completely missing the point, so I'm not surprised he had a hand in it.
I’ve always said that I would have scratched out the last eighteen years of Star Trek since ‘05 and had a full feature film at the end of each series to act as an addendum after DS9, VOY and ENT.
The Bak’u (sp?) lived on that planet prior to the establishment of The Federation, having colonized it before The Federation existed. It actually belonged to them. Also, it’s established that The Federation isn’t aware that this species is warp capable or even technologically capable until Picard and company beams down to gather their officers.
As far as I remember, one of the cases Star Trek Producer Rick Berman made against overtly connecting the movie to the ongoing DS9 arc was that unlike now where we often get TV fast-tracked from the US, back in 1999 international viewers could be anything from 3-5 years behind US audiences. I myself recall Season 4 only beginning to come out locally around 1998 where I live. Originally the script did feature a reference to Jadzia Dax's death, too, which was one reason Worf was taking a sabbatical from his DS9 posting and had come back to the Enterprise, but again it would've been a spoiler for non-American viewers so it was cut.
Ira Behr (DS9 showrunner) was consulted on Michael Piller's script, and gave some very honest feedback that was incorporated into it.
Random info warning.......
I was in this movie as a "live prop". Couple of fun nights running around the Ba'ku village in Lake Sherwood, Westlake while they blew up all sorts of stuff around us. Boom. Covered in cork rocks and dirt. Boom. Fantastic Now I am all wet and it's 3am and cold as....... You can actually see the explosion and drenched a few us as the clip at 0:48 ends 0:52 ish. Fun night.
I highly recommend checking out the world of Background Talent. The pay sucks but the food is good. Some actors are interested in working with you and get pretty talkative on the smaller sets. Others,... Well they can be real dicks and dickets.
Be prepared for LONG hours of doing absolutely nothing. Then spend hours doing the same thing over and over and over and over.........
I never wanted to be an actor. Just did it for fun. WARNING. Just like when you found out Santa really was boning your mom and you really did see something you repressed working on your favorite shows means you will forever be picking out all the bad props you never paid attention to just watching the show. Did all the scifi shows. Space Above and Beyond. Star Trek, Sliders, Tek War, FarScape, X Files (ran around with no face. That sucked) Babylon 5 ( the height of my "fame". I got to say yes sir then killed all of us crashing the ship into a green screen with a tennis ball hanging down. I killed that ball gud....)
If the world ever fully reopens sign up with some Extra casting agencies. It's a ton fun just below all the suck.
Thing about bad props that in older shows, that in my mind is something ALOT of producers do wrong when they upscale and re-release an old show on 4k Blue Ray or something like that.
They don´t go in and digitally clean up the props and effects.
Meaning where in the old show you couldn´t see the duct tape, holding together the cardboard cyberman helmet together or the piano wires used to hold up Vincent the robot alongside the crew when they supposedly where weightless..
Well now its ALL too obvious you can see wires the cardboard helmet and everything.
I am all for re-releasing old shows in an upscale version, but the producers really need to go in an touch up the effects, so that bad props and green screen effects are just as invisible as they where when they where first shown on tv or released on VHS..
That's cool, thanks for the little bit of info. I enjoyed reading it. I am watching Babylon 5 currently and i'm trying to imagine what scene you are describing.
@@Knight_Kin Can't remember the episode titles I was in as it was over 20 years ago but Tony Todd (Worfs brother from STNG) was guest starring in it. We rammed our ship into a station (Tennis ball on a string for us with det cord going off all over) and blew the crap out of it and our ship.
@@Erikjust Tech of the times right. I remember when the news went HD and it seemed like every anchor was getting work done on something. LOL
At the time it was fairly easy to get away with cheap props and let me tell you props can look like absolute garbage in person but look good in the show. Some shows you could see it was just painted plywood but looked perfect in the show. Everything is kinda rough with odd gaps, peeling, hand drawn displays, paint on top of paint on top of more paint. Props to the sound guys. Almost every set sounded like a community theater set when walking around. That hollow wood sound with creaks here and there and auto open doors that sound like baning closet doors together. Just goes to show how good a lot of actors our. Green screen only sets with odd objects for sightlines and ignoring the noise of the set takes talent.
@@lknanml Yes I remember William Shatner mentioned something like that in an interview.
If I recall correctly he said something like this.
First he took a piece of paper a d drew an x on it.
This is the monster we don't know what it will look like or how high it will be...
And now you have to act like its trying to eat you ..
Yeah i can imagine that takes some acting skills to make it beliverble.
I can say personally I always enjoy the behind the scenes stories more than the various marketing interviews.
The behind the scenes seems more beliverble to me.
Like when Michael Keaton mentioned why he moved like he did in costume.
Or Peter Weller mentioning the trouble he had with the original robocop costume.
Or documentaries like The death of superman what happened or Jodorowsky's Dune.
Also the way you describe the sets, it almost makes them sound like something you would see on various Live action roleplays except maybe for the latex/foam videos.
It's a very "spirit of the law vs letter of the law" kinda situation.
And it's depressing how many fans pick the wrong side. Talk about not learning a damn thing Star Trek tries to teach us.
The DS9 connection would've made perfect sense and tied in to everything very nicely. Could've seen both crews interact and stuff. They could've even focused on Sisko and Picard with Sisko forgiving Picard seeing as he kind of blamed Picard for Wolf 359. This movie was released a year before DS9's end run so they could've easily written this in to the ST universe at large easily. But one thing I have noticed about all the Next Generation movies is they're all written for an audience that doesn't know a whole lot about the Trek universe. It's a shame too if they had had good stories at the time of the show they possibly could've made more movies and had similar success as the MCU.
It was released 1 year before ds9 ended
Woops mixed this up with first contact. Either way they still could've written it like I described
And at the end we find out Sisko actually sent Odo disguised as Worf... for some reason
Star trek insurrection could've began with an army of Jem Hadar soldiers attacking the Baku Village and, after losing contact with the starfleet team stationed there, the enterprise e goes to investigate.
I would have LOVED this idea on screen!
More DS9 in a Star Trek Film is ALWAYS a Plus in my book
ANY DS9 in a Trek film would've been a plus (oh, wait, I think it got name-checked maybe twice
I really love your improved.
Hashtag Release The Cullen Cut!
This is SOOOO much better! Excellent work man!
in all seriousness though, you have some good ideas but just having that ceremony at DS9 and saying that the healing powers will help the war effort tremendously would be enough to turn this movie around, even if they kept in F Murray Abraham's screams and the face stretching and even Worf's purple space bazooka that Mr Plinkett is so fond of
Excellent! I didn't look at it that way, but you are 100% correct
The need for a DS9 hook is nice but ultimately forced in the end. I am fine if it was used to cameo Worf and O'Brian but a war is being fought. DS9 still needs its chief engineer and the Defiant her captain as the war rages on. I also wouldn't bother with making it about the Feds wanting to weaponize to gain an edge. The war was going very badly for a while. Picard might not be willing to cross that line but plenty of other captains and admirals would in a heart beat, Sisco included. In my opinion this should be taking place on the tail end of the war. Perhaps shortly after the peace treaty. The need for possible advancement in medical science makes sense to aid in the recovery after the war but not so important that a sacrifice would be easily made to gain it. You could then justify Worf being able to join.
If anything this is what they used to "poison" the changeling in that last season. Something they had found over there.
Wow! Completely agree. You should have been in that writing room!!
I've never hated ST Insurrection, but I'm intrigued by your suggestions. That's a movie I really wish I had seen instead.
I honestly wish Insurrection had been an adaptation of the Gorn Crisis comic instead.
First contact is the only TNG film I kinda like, the rest is pretty meh, especially Nemesis.
I remember being so disappointed that this didn't include the war as part of the plot. All Star Trek fans ad the time had spent years being told the federation was going through this horrible, dark time, almost obliterated in a war, and then this movie came out that showed life on the enterprise was light-hearted and fun. It didn't match. It was kinda worse that they threw in 1 line about the war, because that meant that the war WAS happening, the characters just didn't care much. It felt weird.
Some really great ideas here Dave. I particularly like the use of DS9 at the beginning of the film.
It’s such a shame they produced such an uninspired and boring film with Insurrection, their hearts clearly weren’t in it.
I think you nailed it. And you illustrate another problem the TNG films had. They existed at the same time as the DS9 storyline (arguably one of the most ambitious, brilliant, and risky episodic story arc ST ever attempted). There was an obvious discomfort I think among the producers of ST with the Dominion War storyline. Voyager was created to be "classic trek-style" in a different quadrant in case DS9 failed it could carry the load. Insurrection suffered from a desire to "lighten up" after the darkness of First Contact, and from a belief that the movie had to have a more "timeless" quality, because future watchers would never remember which season of DS9 was going on at the time.
And the funny thing was, in a sense, the producers were right. When it aired, I lost the thread of the Dominian War and stopped watching-- mainly because I had missed too many episodes. These were the days before streaming television. I later watched those episodes, and they were truly great.
The classic format of Trek (drop in anytime for a one shot adventure) still has an appeal to me, though the episodic arc of today's streaming shows also brings something to good visual storytelling.
TOS never had to worry about what was going on on TV because it was in a different "universe" so to speak. Anyone who remembers the DC Comics Star Trek will remember their brilliant shoehorning two years of stories in between ST III and ST IV, and of course, Paramount was free to ignore it entirely. (If you remember Kirk as captain of Excelsior, with the Klingon Bird of Prey as an auxiliary vehicle, you know what I mean).
I hate the story type of "we are peaceful and won't defend ourselves and hate you for using weapons to defend us"
Equating the Federation to a plot of land is not a very good analogy.
A better analogy would be:
The British Empire has declared itself to be the owner of all the oceans and every island in them. One day, an island is found, where a small tribe has extremely fertile land that they use to feed their people, but the British think it would be much better served feeding the entire Empire.
Oh Wait!
I think a DS9/TNG movie would've been better, your premise is something I would've been excited to see 👍
I would've personally loved a Dominion War epic, with the Enterprise E doing battle in space against the Jem'Hadar Battle Cruiser seen in DS9 episode Valiant, and the Enterprise officers trapped on a planet doing a ground war, and F. Murray Abraham would've made a fine Vorta for Picard to outsmart.
If the Baku, having grown dependent on the planet's regenerative properties, aged rapidly and usually fatally upon leaving the surface it would have injected a bit more into the moral conflict of the film.
No. Then what the Federation is doing becomes evil. It is better to make it a moral gray area.
@@grantlandis2747 I agree, it just would have spiced up the movie a bit.
The Ba'ku were colonists, who landed on a new world at least 100 years before the Federation was even formed and claimed it as their new home, much like early European settlers when they landed in North America--what gave them the right to go somewhere new and declare that it was theirs? It's been a while since I watched INS, but I always got the impression that the planet was hidden within the Briar Patch, the UFP had no clue it was there (and were tipped off about it by the Son'a), so simply because their territory expanded around the new anomaly wouldn't give them claim to the planet. The Federation may deem themselves a protectorate of pre-warp races that happen to reside/develop within their space as they expand, and when they develop interstellar travel extend an olive branch but the species may not want anything to do with them and ask the UFP to leave their system--what claim does the UFP have to it if after all.
Nothing was said about where they'd originally come from or why they'd fled, for all we know those 600 Ba'ku could be the last remaining group of a race as ancient as the Vulcans who wiped themselves out or lost some cataclysmic interstellar war, which would make them an endangered species which could make their new home essential a nature reserve.
There is one major flaw in your rewrite, once movie audiences had a taster of the sheer brilliance that is DS9 and its crew then they'd be wanting more of that than anything else, the PTB would need to go for a full TNG/DS9 crossover film and not just a cameo, which could open up a whole new plotline around Sisko, Kira and the gang fighting in one of the worst battles so far of the war, or hell even being ordered to go up against the E-E being fed lies about the ship having succumb to Changeling infiltration. Keep Worf with his new crew as the focal point there and then have him face the dilemma of firing on his old crew (of course, Sisko would very quickly switch sides and back up the E-E).
Now try: "How Star Trek: Nemesis Could Have Been Vastly Improved"
If your able to make that.
The movie was possible to make watchable:
1. Have Tom Hardy age rapidly, so that by the final 3rd of the movie, Patrick Stewart is playing the part.
2. Don't kill Data. Get rid of the whole B4 garbage. Instead, Data is just another character. He can "sacrifice" himself exactly the same. Have the crew "grieve" for him for a min or two....................but surprise! The Romulans detected him and beamed him out right before the explosion!! Tears of joy abound, in a triumphant reunion!
3. Have the whole wedding scene at the END of the movie! Finish it on a good note.
4. Bonus points for getting rid of that Troi mind rape garbage.
Definitely would have to do something to fix Shinzon's stairway introduction scene. He comes in in darkness and is revealed to be human. Then the lights come up and he's a younger Picard. A clone? A transporter duplicate, a shapeshifter? Is he a time traveler or from a parallel universe? Picard is wondering these things and we were obviously meant to be right there with him.
Except, we don't know Tom Hardy is supposed to be a younger Picard. All we get is "random bald human". Picard's looking at him weird, not sure what's up with that. Then we get vague talk about them being the same, but it's not until Dr. Crusher tells us he's a clone that we even know what we were supposed to have been thinking the last few minutes.
What we needed was some kind of introduction to Tom Hardy representing a younger Picard (maybe shoehorned into that deleted scene with Picard and Data talking about time).
Alternatively, don't make the movie until after X-Men First Class, and have James McAvoy be Shinzon instead. We'd know through Actor Allusion what that would mean.
@@balrighty3523 OMG James McAvoy would have been a 10x better young Picard. Not for a second did I ever believe Tom Hardy was Picard. They look zero alike other than being bald.
@@apreviousseagle836 Quote: *The Romulans detected him and beamed him out right before the explosion!! Tears of joy abound, in a triumphant reunion!*
This sequence of events stretches credibility too much. Even if for some reason their transporters were still working, how would they know what Data was about to do while he was aboard the Scimitar, and know to standby to beam him out? The Valdor barely had life support, let alone transporter power.
Data fired his phaser into the Scimitar weapon, and the explosion instantaneously enveloped the room. There's no way any transporter could have beamed him out before he got turned to vapors.
@@BigJwlz The same credibility that having a Soong Android end up on some backward planet because Shinzon magically found it, and took it apart and dumped it there? The same credibility that Shinzon was able to construct a huge incredibly powerful fanboy ship, with two hundred phaser banks, four hundred torpedo launchers, a perfect cloak, etc etc, when the guy (and his Reman friends) could barely get anything to eat. The same credibility that Star Fleet would carry around an All Terrain Vehicle with wheels that's completely unexposed and unprotected, and has a particle cannon that can only shoot backwards and has to be aimed manually. That same credibility?
Loved the DS9 crossover and the Dominion war connection, infact this whole film sounds better than what we got.
Federation would not own everything inside it's borders, even on our planet the EU does not own Switzerland and it would have many planets inside it's borders who are not members and thus not under it's control
Your analogy falls a bit flat when you remember that the EU has no sovereignty over all of Europe, just planets that join it. The Federation isn’t the EU.
@@jackdaone6469 Switzerland is smack bang inside the European continent that the EU controls mostly ATM , point is it doesn't own it which is my point about planets withing the borders of the Federation . There are many planets inside the federation that they do not control since i think its only 150 planets that are members, or something like that
Having grown up on Star Trek since the '70s, I always get the sense that several of the Star Trek movies, especially TNG, feel like 2hr TV episodes and not films. This film is a very good example of what I'm talking about. abour
Star Trek fans in the 90s: "Omg, more dark dystopian stories please, this is awsome!"
Star Trek fans now: "Can we please get the light hearted, family friendly stories back?"
Us Trek fans in a nutshell, lol.
Your ideas sound interesting, maybe one day the technologie is good enough so fans can do a edit of the movie and add stuff like DS9.
I still like the original movie, i never hated it, but i would really like to see your version of it! :)
There is Federation precedent with "suspending" the Prime Directive (i.e. the episodes never mentioned it) with borderland episodes. I'm referring to the following TOS episodes:
1. Errand of Mercy
2. Friday's Child
3. A Private Little War (possibly)
In the first two, the Federation dealt with one apparent and one actual pre-industrial culture and revealed to them the existence of aliens and space travel. In the third, it's a little less clear. They don't mention the PD, but rather Kirk's original survey mission for the Federation not interfering. However, all three episodes include Klingons and Organia was specifically stated to be in a disputed territory.
From that, I always took it that the Federation suspended the PD in border planets where other powers that don't have a similar law have a claim. This makes sense as they couldn't prevent the Klingons (in the case of these episodes) from making contact, so the PD is moot.
I feel like your changes mostly work except for needing the radiation to be used for weaponry I think the advance in medical technology would be of enough strategic importance to warrant just about any action.
I'm more of a casual Star Trek fan and I had completely forgotten this was supposed to take place during the Dominion war and thinking back on it it really should have played a bigger part.
Based on Riker's line about Dominion negotiations and that Worf is still serving on DS9, I've concluded that Insurrection can only take place in the middle of the DS9 Finale between the final battle at Cardassia and the signing of the treaty on the station. It's the only thing that makes sense.
no . it was during the negotiations that started after the Dominion withdrew from DS9 and Damar took over as leader of Cardassia
@@NitpickingNerd possibly but Insurrection came out more than a year after that happened. In universe that happened in 2374 and Insurrection is accepted as 2375 based on precedent that whatever year the series is on when a movie releases is the year the movie takes place. My theory makes sense anyway, don't comment like I'm definitely wrong.
@@nickryan4126 Ruafo said the Borg attack happened 24 months prior that means first contact which was during season 5 of ds9. So this movie is during season 6 of ds9 . And in the middle of season 6 there were peace negotiations when the dominion was trying to buy time and get materials to make the drug for the jemhadar
Some where close to 300 years old, so they have been there a minimum of of around 200 years. The Federation likely annexed vast swaths of space over the years, without checking or caring about actual territories.
Look at the Gamma Quadrant. Even when the Dominion explained their claim, the Federation still invaded their space. They do not respect sovereign space. They simply annex outside of their core territory like the Tholians.
I doubt very much the Federation owned this planet, or even extended out this far 200 years ago. I'd like to see the NX Class that mapped the Briar Patch.
This needs of the many crap destroys so much. The Maquis, the Baku, how many more?...
*This comment is sponsored by the Obsidian Order Gang*
Good video. I do like the idea of a brief DS9 crossover/cameos. But I don't like the idea of tying this film in to the Dominion war and I can see why Rick Berman made the call not to do that. Here are 7 reasons I would give:
1. Trying the movie in to the Dominion war would be tying it to a particular moment in Trek history, which might have dated it very quickly, or made it seem irrelevant after a couple of years - even by the time the film was released. Removing this makes the movie more timeless :-)
2. Trying it to the Dominion war would add unnecessary complication to the story. Good storytelling should always strip away any elements that don't directly affect the main story.
3. Trying it to the Dominion war would undermine the film's own plot. Because even if this film has a 'happy ending', we'd be reminded that there isn't really a "happy ending" as the war is still on. So it's making a feel-good movie seem depressing!
4. Trying it to the Dominion war would create a barrier to mainstream audiences (or new Trek fans) who don't know all the details of DS9. It excludes them unnecessarily.
5. I believe each Trek series works best when it has its own stories, themes and identity, rather than borrowing from and encroaching upon each other's storylines, to create one big, confusing, interconnected continuity spanning decades. I'm a simple man and I like to be able to watch all the TNG episodes and movies WITHOUT having to worry too much about what's happening "right now" in other shows' timelines.
6. Also, people don't watch movies to get 'more of the same', we watch movies for something NEW and DIFFERENT. Even the most hardcore DS9 fans may not want "more Dominion war" when they watch this. We come to this for a change of pace.
7. Finally, we must consider the tone and brand of TNG franchise. It's generally lighter and gentler than DS9, associated with optimistic utopian escapism, rather than gritty hardship and neverending wars! So this movie keeps the TNG franchise perfectly on-brand and on-tone! It gives us a BREAK from the war! :-)
The original movie is still better than STD
A literal kick to the balls would be better than STD...
STD: Gives you The Burn in more ways than one!
Just because the planet is in Federation space doesn’t mean the Federation owns every planet in that space. The Baku were their first, therefore they had every right to be there and to not be moved.
In your version, even if Picard said he wasn't going to do it, Starfleet would simply get another captain and ship to do it
Exactly. A brand new weapon to help win a war they were losing? Sisco would have just ordered Worf to take it with the Defiant and the whole thing is resolved in one episode.
You can have a planet in your space but not be a member world.
The admiral's reasoning about the prime directive not applying is only after he hears Picard's investigative report that these are actually an advanced species. The admiral was happy that his case is now more resilient.
I would call this a commentary on moving an established people for access to their resources for the "benefit" of the majority. If a major oil well was found on a Lakota reservation (an independent region within a country's territory), you can surely bet the American federal government would turn up a bunch of Doughertys.
As much as I love DS9 it would have been perfectly fine without that whole Sisko being a prophet meant to have some divine destiny,
It's either the Salty Trekker or Darrin Wagner that did a rewrite of Favor the Bold and Sacrifice of Angels you should look into. I don't care for that aspect either, but the rewrite makes it MUCH better.
To me it felt like the writers were afraid to go all in on the Emissary/Prophets narrative until Season 7 and that riding the fence is what made it more annoying than anything.
This is absolutely simple. And therefore brilliant.
I like some of these changes. Particularly the use of the planet’s rings for highly advanced weapons production. The original film was just too bland and offered no real stakes. It could’ve easily been a two part TNG episode.
I do really love your alternate version!
While I agree that the prime directive probably doesn't apply, I do take issue with your analogy for acres for food.
If you own acres and then a country comes along and says "This is within our territory", then are you obliged to accept this? (You didn't know, they have never been there and for what it's worth, they could just have now arrived and claimed your land.) I would understand resistance, even if that country says "This is our territory and we can do as we please within." That is disputed though. So the UFP saying this planet is within their space excludes the opinion of the Baku. They might not consider themselves a part of UFP space, even if they are not primitives and descendants of Warp capable species.
Maybe they found out later that they are, in fact, Warp capable in theory (even though they live "primitive" lives), and had those encampments up previous to that knowledge.
It would come down to principle; forcing yourself upon people who do not consider themselves a part of UFP space. Yes, it would aid "the many", but it would violate rights to decide for themselves of "the few".
Being unaware of the governing body does not make one immune to its laws. They are lucky that it is the Feds that own the planet and not the Roms or Klings, they would have wiped the squaters out and be done with it. Besides we also have no idea if they actual were unaware that this planet was within Fed space when they colonized it. They could be playing dumb for sympathy. "Oh I had no idea this land was yours but I have people there now so it is mine, too bad so sad."
@@lordhawkeye I know not knowing doesn't save you from consequences. But it makes it understandable if you're told that apparently you're within someone's territory.
First- was it established that the Federation took possession of the Briar Patch before the Bakku? I don’t think it was and I would assume the opposite, seeing as how the Bakku don’t seem to know what the Federation is. Secondly, “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.”- this isn’t meant to be used as an excuse to violate other planets/ nations. By your logic, any sufficiently large nation can attack smaller nations as long as they genuinely need more resources. The ends don’t justify the means.
Great suggestions for a better story. I'll have to pretend this was the actual plot from now on. Oh yeah, and #AdmiralDoughertyDidNothingWrong
I summarily reject the notion that "the Federation owns everything". Property rights are for individuals only, not for non-person collective government structures, and even if you wanted to argue that property rights can extend to non-person entities like governments (which makes no sense since property is an application of individual bodily sovereignty, and a non-person organisation like a government doesn't have a body), any claims the Federation made would be fundamentally illegitimate since the only way an organisation like a government can acquire property is either through theft or coercion.
No, the situation with the Baku is less like squatters invading private property and more like the forced relocation of aboriginals in colonial territories. And, I think that was kind of the point of the movie.