I LOVE your channel. I am a City Building Inspector. The problem is EXPERIENCED and Highly qualified electricians don't write the codes. Electrical Engineers with limited field experience or common sense write codes. It is my job as an inspector to interpret the intent of the code and many times I will side with the aspects of safety combined with common sense! I learn so much from experienced electricians and I am not afraid to ask questions and get second opinions. Some issues are black and white with the code, but there is some wiggle room for interpretation for many issues.
On the topic of common sense why are you wasting your talents working as some paid slave at some municipal government? I gave that up and make TRIPLE what I used to in my own commercial and residential property inspection business. I never bad-mouth other professions either as it's juvenile. I'm a professional engineer that also holds three journeyman certifications. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
But that's the issue, there should not be any interpertation. It should be a yes or no not maybe. You could get 10 different interpertations from 10 people.
If they think I'm going to AFCI-protect a branch circuit dedicated to a sump pump, they're been smoking those short cigarettes again. No way do I want the sump pump motor to trigger an arc detection and get shut down and flood the house, just cause the code says so.
@@kenbrown2808 that would have been protected against with GFCI. AFCI is even worse at nuisance trips than GFCI, honestly it's rare that I ever see nuisance trips on GFCI, but my one AFCI circuit I can barely use reliably due to nuisance trips.
@@kenbrown2808 Truth. Oh, here's one for you - some Traeger grills had piss-poor wiring connections that arced and consistently tripped GFCIs in my experience, and customers would relentlessly beg me to just give them a regular receptacle outdoors and call it good.
@@Timocracy construction sites can be terrible. three extension cords with a splitter on the end and every plug lying in a puddle. "why won't the GFCI hold?"
As an appliance repair tech we have been factory trained to deny any warranty claims on these circuits if the appliance has an inverter in them. Most French Door and Side-by-Side refrigerator models cannot be on the “code” setups because the DC voltage conversion from the inverter is enough to trip the breaker or GFCI outlet. Some washers also have issues as they have MCUs acting as an inverter to run the Stator system. If it’s a Whirlpool or Frigidaire brand I highly recommend you avoid this code or pick a different brand if you’re trying to pass inspections on a new build. But I appreciate the video, it helps to show my trainees so they learn the other trades that we deal with before they quote out the wrong diagnosis and send the customer the wrong way 🤙🏻
Just had that happen to me in my house. Recent inspection, so a new GFCI, and got a new GE washer. Tripped every time the washer started. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I looked up the specs on the GFCI I'd installed, and the trip time was rated super fast. Something like 10milliseconds when approaching a quarter amp. So I replaced the receptacle with one that was just listed as UL rated (Based on a quick google right now, that appears to be 25milliseconds), seemingly solved the problem. Probably won't die in those 15 milliseconds :-)
Ugh... AFCIs are super annoying... inspector required them at all outlets of my basement development (including behind my fridge, microwave, etc.). I expected the technology to have evolved by now, in 2022. However, despite being brand new AFCIs, many would experience nuisance trips. Some were fixed right away by replacing with a different AFCI, others required a second replacement. Are some brands more prone to nuisance trips? I haven't been too happy with the Siemens Type Q AFCIs, but that's what the electrical contractor used by my homebuilder put in. As a final workaround, I've plugged in some WiFi smart plugs into outlets to monitor for loss of power, so that I get a notification on my phone if a circuit cuts out and food in my fridge/freezer is subject to going bad!
I'll just say that Siemens seem to be notorious for nuisance trips. It got so bad at my local supply house, that electricians all over were bringing them back in for replacements. When the supplier took them to Siemens, they were basically told to pound salt (they said that their electricians must not know how to install them).
So glad I don’t do residential anymore. Those AFCI GFCI combo breakers have nuisance trips all the time. Usually from vacuums or something with a motor. The code writers have to do something to validate their pay. Back in the 2000s any call back I got from tripping breakers from plug in equipment I would just install a regular breaker. Problem solved. If it was in a wet area the gfci would still have the life safety shut off.
About AFCIs, how do they deal with things like vacuum cleaners and electric drills that have brushed motors? Brushed motors create arcs as the brushes switch from one segment of the commutator to the next. That is what would tear up the picture or sound on every TV and radio in the house. In fact, it would often disrupt the TV in neighboring houses.
in reference to gfci protection for stoves and the 6 foot rule, i did not know it was talking about the receptacle, i thought it was a contact issue between the stove chassis and water or wet surface....i remember back in the day when you couldn't touch the stove and refrigerator at the same time without getting zapped...thank you for you highly appreciated show
I'm in the process of adding several new branch circuits and I was starting to think I should just always use arc fault breakers everywhere from now on. However, I've seen these breakers be over sensitive so now I'm rethinking this.
They are crazy sensitive, i wouldn't if i don't have to, we've been having lots of issues with them tripping just from turning your lights on. specifically Seimens brand (because that's what we use)
I would definitely not use them if you don't have to... I've heard of people going back after the final electrical inspection and swapping them out just because they're so annoying.
@@williambills3260 back then it was knob and tube, which is quite a lot more robust if done right, i would however advise you check it out every so often, and be sure you put the correctly rated fuses in! doing that, it'll last just about forever. oh and be careful with the insulation, it can be brittle
THanks. I was hoping you'd also touch upon some of the real world problems encountered with certain appliances like refrigerators and washing machines that tend to trip to GFCIs
As a residential helper, we always run the home run of one of the two 20a kitchen circuits to the fridge receptacle before the first GFCI so that it won’t trip it. Hope this sheds a little light.
@@daytonturner2265 That works, except in some jurisdictions the refrigerator must be GFCI protected. By the NEC it doesn't unless its plugged into a receptacle within 6 feet of a sink such as a countertop receptacle, but some municipalities require it.
thanks for the add. I was aware of the 6 foot rule but didn’t know some places required it. So I guess there’d be 2 solutions then, either pull a separate circuit for the fridge or pull the home run to a fridge gfci outlet first, then pull a jumper to your first kitchen receptacle and make that a gfci outlet as well. Put the jumper to the kitchen gfci outlet in the line side of the fridge gfci so that the fridge outlet trippin will still allow current to flow through the bottom line screw holes. (And the kitchen gfci the jumper goes to will protect the rest of the circuit) correct me if I’m wrong thanks
@@daytonturner2265 A separate circuit is certainly the ideal solution. My refrigerator was on the same circuit as my GFCI protected countertop receptacles and tripped the GFCI a couple times, so I just ran a new circuit and put it on its own AFCI only breaker. Hasn't tripped since, totally code compliant here, and cost me under $40 since I already had extra 12/2 Romex, outlets, boxes, etc and just needed a breaker. Totally worth it to not have to worry about it tripping again and spoiling my food. Since the refrigerator is grounded, I see no reason for it to be GFCI protected since a short from hot to the refrigerator's chassis won't energize it anyways, it would simply trip the breaker. The odds of someone using a refrigerator so old that it is ungrounded is virtually zero.
Most of the customers I have WILL NOT pay for AFCI breakers. They put some in where required and then after inspection they go back in the box and get returned and the standard $5.00 breaker gets put in🤷♂️🙄
My old electrical teacher knew a Electrician who would do that with every home project that he worked on and was being inspected. I dont remember how he got caught by an inspector doing it but the guy ended up losing his electrical license because of it.
Lots of people don't understand that GFCI and AFCI are protecting against _two completely different types of problems,_ which occur in different places and situations. GFCI is protecting against faults that can happen _in a piece of equipment_ or that humans can come in contact with. AFCI is about _protecting the building wiring._ It does not make any sense to "AFCI protect an appliance" because _the appliance is not where the problem occurs_ that AFCIs are intended to deal with. You AFCI protect _a circuit_ because it is the _circuit_ (wires in the wall) that the AFCI is designed to protect.
I'm planning a major electrical remodel and I'm concerned about AFCIs being required almost everywhere now. I do have one AFCI protected circuit and nuisance trips are *constant*. Motor surge current, speaker amplifiers, even LED lighting have caused trips either at power on or just randomly. If the circuit is idle it's fine, but run anything electronic on it and eventually it'll trip. Starting to wonder if I need to also get a UPS setup for my fridge and such... (Or just do what others say, buy the AFCIs just to pass inspection then swap them out for normal GFCI-only breakers at least on critical circuits...)
That's exactly what we do! The customers will not pay the high cost of the arc fault breakers. I keep some on hand for inspection when required and then the standard breaker goes back in.
I installed all AFCI breakers in my new home. Some have GGCI too. Haven't had a problem yet.. my washer and dryer are not in home they're in the utility shed with a regular breaker. No garbage disposal, I do have a dishwasher and a high end refrigerator plus a gas range. All lights are LED pod lights.
GFCI protection also requires resetting to be easily accessible. So, for ranges, built-in ovens, refrigerators pushed back against a wall between 2 cabinets, etc., what's your recommendation. These are going to be dedicated circuits so using a nearby GFCI outlet won't work. You don't want to have to pull the device out, so doing it at the breaker, which is not even in the same room, therefore not readily accessible, seems to be the only way. Also, if you have several pounds of meat in a freezer, you really don't want an easily tripped GFCI cutting power to it. So, recommendations? It seems as if the code has gone too far on some of this and the inspector you mentioned still had some common sense.
Well the easiest method is a gfci breaker and for large appliance it's the only method. Otherwise we sometimes put them under the sink open the door reset it gfci switch not the outlet type (especially for dishwashers).
@@MOtherBoardFire Yep, that's what I figured. So, you essentially have to violate the code to follow the code by making the reset not readily accessible. Also, who really wants their freezer in the garage being on a GFCI since they have a tendency to trip for, what seems like, no reason? I could see a $1000 of meat going bad over that one.
Yeah and the sucky thing is some washing machines have “issues” when being plugged into a afci/gfci outlet…..some just hate it; while others don’t care. Anyone else have those fun troubles on service call and trying to figure why a homeowner’s new washing machine just won’t work, lol
not a washing machine, but i have had calls where customers are having breakers trip because they wanted to turn their lights on. apparently Seimens AFCI breakers don't like it when you turn your lights on
No problem with the washing machine, but the gas dryer tripped instantly. Plugged it instead into the circuit with the washer and a sanitary pump and the problem went away. Yes, the breaker then got changed.
concering dryers and gfci's, sometimes the nuetral is bonded to the appliance and will cause the gfci to trip. I can see this being done away with by appliance maufactures in the future, but that's how their designed so a homeowner can swap a chord rather than call an electrician.
Things that have motors that can shock you, it makes sense. But I think they are getting carried away with codes and ignoring nuisance trips. One- the GFCI/ACFI are not cheap. When you think two bucks a receptacle, then more for tamper-proof, and now 5-10x as much for GFCI and ACFI... hundreds of dollars for a single family home in outlets now. Sure, you can put a ACFI breaker in place, but again... for modern homes I can see that. BTW, lost several hundred dollars in meats and frozen produce to a nuisance tripped chest freezer. Happened once. Pulled that GFCI out and put in regular..I can as the home owner.
Egad, I'm currently living in a new apartment where I've called maintenance at least twice for flaky trips cause by AFCI's. Once on the dryer and once on the ceiling fan. Now I'm planning an off grid house, and trying to figure out a reasonably priced, resilient, expandable system, that gets past the inspector. One of the parts that I need is commonly available - in India - but not in America. A dang metal box where you can install a MCB!
Hi Dustin, I’m updating all countertop receptacles in a kitchen currently, and I have a question for ya. Right now the kitchen has no GFCI or AFCI protection. All kitchen receptacles are fed from 2 single pole 20A circuits with a shared neutral. So I’m wondering, is it possible to do 2 single pole 20A Combination Circuit Breakers when there’s only one grounded wire to work with? I would also use a handle tie in order to comply with code. Love your videos man, keep up the hard work.
As of now, and I've been doing extensive research on this matter because multiwire branch circuits for kitchens were very commonplace in the 70s and 80s, there are currently no manufacturers that have available dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers. You could make the kitchen safer, by using a two pole 20 amp GFCI breaker, but you definitely want to work with your local inspector because typically existing circuits fall under the grandfather clause, but if you do any additions or modifications that's when your likely required to bring it up to current code, which can get very expensive quickly. With the NEC seemingly adding locations which require GFCI and/or AFCI protection with each new code cycle I wouldn't be at all surprised to see dual function AFCI/GFCI two pole breakers come on the market before the end of the decade. To answer your question, no, you cannot share a neutral on two dual function breakers with a handle tie, because they would be constantly tripping due to the unbalance between L1 to N and L2 to N, the new code requirements for GFCI and AFCI made multiwire circuits a thing of the past despite it being a more efficient use of labor and material vs pulling two separate runs of 12/2 NM like we would in new construction.
Thx for your clear, concise, complete explanations. My issue: I recently installed a ceiling fan in the living room that's on the same breaker as the bathroom. The breaker is AFCI, and we get nuisance tripping occasionally. Could the ceiling fan motor be causing the tripping, or should I look elsewhere for the cause? Keep in mind the ceiling fan box is 18 ft up, so I want to check all possibilities before renting equipment to re-check the ceiling fan connection. Thx!
Depending on how the wiring is run, you might be able to move the source for the fan to a different circuit somewhere other than in the ceiling box. Otherwise you'll probably just have to leave it shut off for a long enough period to see if it affects the likelihood of false-trips. Did you get false-trips before putting it in? Was the AFCI installed at the same time?
To me, a GFCI isn't just to protect when plugging/unplugging but if a fault develops in the device plugged into that outlet. If the insulation on a wire in that stove/oven fails, the body of the stove/oven could be electrically energized. If one happened to reach for the faucet at the same time touching the stove that would be very bad.
That's not really what a GFCI is "for". That's what the ground itself is for, since that should cause a short to ground and trip the breaker. GFCI's primary purpose isn't as a backup to proper grounding (although it does function that way too), it's to protect against other paths from the hot directly through a person, for example via water.
@@sweepingdenver In a perfect world, the ground connection would take all of the current flow to ground, exceed the current rating for the breaker by a substantial amount, and the breaker would open. But what happens if one of those "perfect world" requirements doesn't happen? Keep in mind that the stove/oven might have a 30 or 50 amp breaker and anything over 0.005 amp (5 milliamps) can be fatal. That means that literally 99.99% of the current leakage current could be going to ground without tripping the breaker and the one part in ten-thousand that flows through a person's body could kill them. THAT IS WHAT A GFCI IS MEANT TO PREVENT.
I noticed your books include some on physics and particle physics. You must take an interest in the scientific side of electrical. I do too, but I'm not quite there yet, still need to master the basics.
We install gfci/arc fault breakers on everything except 220 v plugs or 120 volt furnaces. We do however have to gfci protect any 220 volt plug in garages. They are a headache and I would put regular breakers on anything like a refrigerator etc that that is the only thing being on that circuit and is not going to be exposed to water. That being said having to pull two separate kit circuits we used to homerun to fridge then catch couple kit plugs and thar would be 1 of our 2 kit circuits but now we dedicate the fridge. I recommend dedicating the fridge anyway because of what it is.
I just need to extend a 20A branch circuit from one outbuilding to another (via new underground line) for the sake of adding some outlets in that second building. No water or wet conditions in either building. I'll probably make sure the first outlet in the first outbuilding is an AF/GFCI outlet, I'll use 12-gauge wiring (because of the 20A breaker), I'll probably use 20A outlets in the second outbuilding. I think I'm all set for that, with a little more reading up on whether I need the AFCI feature at all. Now I just need to figure out the whole grounding thing (find out how the existing branch circuit is grounded and if I need additional grounding measures on the extension or just extend the existing ground wire through the new outlets).
LOL Then the home owner is hiring an electrician overtime that range needs replaced. With today's modern quality of appliances, the average would be 5-10 years at most.
GFCI protection for a receptacle of that size would come from the breaker and not locally at the plug like a normal nema 5-15 GFCI. So cutting the cord would do nothing because it's the breaker that would have to be reset
@@drewbrown9678 then, why are (90%) dishwashers not with a plug? Anyway, any homeowner is able to disconnect something, it's when they have to put a branch in panel, or reconnect something they call the electrician.
Yeah Dustin and the inspector both got this one wrong. The point of a GFCI is not just about people sticking stuff in the outlet. It's to protect people when metal becomes electrified. He also could have explained how the AFCI is to protect the wiring which is why you can't use an AFCI receptacle unless the home run is in conduit.
Isn't the point of the ground to deal with metal getting electrified? I'm guessing the stove if 240 electric, didn't have 4 prongs, just 2 hots an a neutral. I'm a bit disturbed by all the changes to electric code however. Thought we had all this figured out and standardized by the 1960s! The big problem besides cost to implement, is that average handyman is not updated on changes and their purpose, nor is the store selling the product.
@@roflchopter11 I deal with maintenance at my Church. All of our buildings are at least 50 years old and I've yet to see any of the 50amp 240v outlets for fryers or cloths dryers that weren't recently installed not have the third pin connected to anything other than the neutral buss. With the newer 4 pin outlets there are 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. Most of our stuff is grounded via the conduit and most panels don't have separate ground terminals. I understand the need for safety, yet we act like there have been so many accidents and have to change everything, yet most of these installations are troubled free. In the case of 240v, you turn the breaker off before unplugging. As for the guys wife getting shocked I can accept changing a 3 pin to a 4pin outlet so long as I can pull another wire. I can't however add arc-fault breakers to vintage Square D NQOB panels. The whole concept with arc-fault was to protect old knob and tube circuits, however since most share the same neutral it didn't work for the intended application. Speaking of knob and tube, the funny thing is some of those old systems originally fused the neutral as well as the hot. Now with the GFCI and AFCI breakers needing a neutral hook up we are back to the same.
Have they figured out how to fix these things so RF doesn't trip them? Even after doing a lot to try and avoid it I am still tripping GFCIs randomly when I pull into the driveway talking on a 25-50 watt VHF radio...I hear AFCIs are even worse.
Yes i know we are supposed to GFCI protect refridgerators and freezers but I think its a dumb thing and try to avoid it. I had a lot of customers loose food when the GFCI nuisance tripped.
@@drewbrown9678 hard to fault the installer when code requires it. Sue the government. But they'll fight you with an unlimited warchest stocked by your tax dollars.
Can you comnent on a how a fridge might react with an AFCI if it has an inverter? My french door fridge is broadcasting serious RFI into multiple rooms. Thanks
Of course....we are talking about adding new circuits....not existing circuits. What I absolutely LOVE is these damn Home Inspectors who start testing circuits and then they start quoting NEC codes. I literally had a heated argument about counter recepticals requiring GFCI protection.....in a house built in 1981.......Anyway he said to me this counter needs to be GFCI protected(keeping in mind it it 15 ft from any water source).....I told himit doesn't but if he would've looked at the panel, he would've noticed Breaker #31 was an AFCI/ GFCI Breaker....it was my house and put that in when I replaced the panel 3 years ago! Ya'll stay safe and sane out there!
I'm going to make this simple. The code refers to where you HAVE to use one of these devices. Often you'll come across situations where you don't have to use one, but it's probably a good idea for peace of mind. Personally I'd rather spend the extra money so I can sleep better. A code is only written when a problem has come up from result of some condition or unforeseen factor, hence the changes in codes from year to year. I know arc fault devices are sensitive. Use them accordingly. One day GFCI is going to be required for every application. It's just a matter of time. I hate to say this but safety is no accident. On a personal note I'd like to see any extension cord smaller than 14 gauge be banned. Party on dude.
@@larryroyovitz7829 The problem I have with extensions is that a 15 amp circuit uses a 14 gauge wire. then someone plugs in a 16 gauge extension and tries to power a window ac or other high current device and causes a fire while they are in bed sleeping. For a single lamp it's just fine. I think anything smaller than. #14 connected to a 15 amp circuit is dangerous.
@@rickhunt3183 I agree, that's the same problem I have. I wasn't being sarcastic, I literally mean there are 16 gauge, 100 foot extension cords made in China. I've seen them...scary ass shit.
Ever feel how warm a vacuum cord gets? They are often 16 or 18 gauge wire! Who thought that was ok? I'm also perplexed by 20 gauge from the ballast in fluorescent lights.
@@johnruskin4290 while wires can typically operate at temperatures over 150 degrees. Any heat produced by wire resistance is wasted power. If a 14 gauge is hot bumping it up to a 12 isn't a bad idea. Sometimes you'll find a hard ass inspector that insists a 15 amp circuit needs a 14 gauge wire and I'll say, but this wire is bigger so it's safer, and runs cooler, and he'll say pull it all the 12 and install 14.. Hard to believe I know, because an inspector is an electrician, and knows this stuff. Always start off being nice and respectful even if they are an idiot.
Out of curiosity why do campgrounds RV receptacles not have to be gfci'd. Numerous times I've been zapped when touching the metal frame of my camper after plugging into a faulty receptacle. When I installed a 50 amp RV receptacle at home I used a GFCI and never had a problem.
check your state's specialty code. AFCIs are being pushed hard by manufacturers, and the consequence I'm seeing is people are overloading general lighting circuits in order to reduce the number of breakers they have to buy. some states are choosing to only require AFCI protection on general lighting circuits and specifically NOT require it in kitchens, laundry rooms, garages, etc. and the fact of the matter is, more problems are happening because of overloaded circuits, and sometimes because the handyman comes in and replaces the AFCI breaker with an oversized standard breaker.
In Arkansas the fire marshal said we had to put them in dwelling units... but that he only counts dwelling units as where someone actually sleeps. Anywhere else he only cares about if it requires GFCI protection.
Arc faults are nothing but a NUISANCE! Sometimes can't even use a vacuum cleaner as it trips let alone turn a light on as it reads the arc signature of the switch being flipped with a load on it. One customer with a whole house reno went out of his mind as we explained it won't pass inspection unless these breakers are installed. He replaced all the nuisance ones after the job was finished and all final inspections. Its a RACKET!
I don't think it was mentioned, but AFCI is only required on 120V, 15A and 20A circuits. Not required on any 240V circuits (210.12(A)). Also, 210.12(A) says that circuits require AFCI protection when there's an outlet OR DEVICE in one of the specified locations. So, for example, a circuit that supplies outdoor lighting doesn't need AFCI, BUT if the switch that controls those lights is in a hallway, or living room, or kitchen, or some other area that DOES require AFCI, then you need to AFCI protect it, since the device (switch) is in an area that requires AFCI.
actually, unless they changed the verbiage, an outside light switched from an AFCI required location doesn't have to be AFCI protected. but - are you going to run a dedicated circuit to take that one light off the AFCI circuit? considering that with modern LED lighting, a good electrician will run two light circuits, so if one needs to be shut off for service or modification, half of the house will still have light.
@@kenbrown2808 I read 210.12(A) again, and it doesn't mention an exception for outdoor lighting. It simply says "All 120V, single phase, 15A and 20A branch circuits supplying outlets or devices in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms (etc...)....shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6). There's an exception at the end for fire alarm circuits, and that's it.
@@jonclark1288 they may have changed the verbiage, then. as I said, it's a moot point because I'm not going to waste my time running a dedicated unprotected lighting circuit across a house to supply one outside light.
@@kenbrown2808 I was just using outdoor lighting as an example. My point was, if a switch is in an area that needs AFCI, you need to AFCI protect it, even if the load that it controls doesn't need AFCI. Another good example is a detached garage with an outdoor light mounted on it. The garage has its own subpanel, which feeds the light. That doesn't need AFCI, but what if you want to also be able to control the light from the house? You run some travelers from the garage to the house and install a 3-way switch right next to the back door in the kitchen. Boom, now you need an AFCI breaker in your garage subpanel.
@@jonclark1288 and my point was that originally, switches were not included in the rules. they may have changed the verbiage when they expanded AFCI coverage to everything they could get away with. as for your garage light, just put a line voltage RF switch in and no travelers needed.
I wonder if my house wouldn't have burned down if the outlet my portable AC unit was on had an AFCI breaker. The inspector said the fire started somewhere up in the attic where the wires were ran.
@@jeffkardosjr.3825 I don’t know I have them in my home and they seam to trip with out rime or reason may go 6 months with out then 3 trip in one week on 3 different circuits. Won’t use one on a critical circuit.
If the ground is touching the neutral anywhere past the main point of disconnect in a circuit or will cause what is known as "nuisance" tripping. I do lots of service work and install AFCI breakers all the time on old panels and rarely have issues.
I’ve opened a lot of receptacles where ground and neutral were joined. I feel like in my area there must have been a sparky who thought that was the way to do it.
I have couple questions for you I have a new house built in 2021 and I’m in the process of finishing the basement and I pulled the cover off the main breaker panel and found that 99% of my breakers are AFCI two pole breakers and the neutral and power wires are both Terminated on the breaker with a jumper going from the neutral wire to the neutral busbar in the panel 60 and the grounds and neutrals are separated in the panel There is no other service disconnect other than the main breaker in the panel From the main service feed My question is are the neutrals and grounds separated in the main panel because of the AFCI Breakers or am I missing something Thanks in advance…
Find out the code book used in your area. 2020 may be the latest but your county inspectors may be using older 2017. In that case you would not have to do what's in 2020.
How about a dedicated circuit that is hard wired? Example: An electric heater in a garage. 240v 30a run directly from a breaker to a box mounted on a wall stud with a whip from the box to the heater that is permanently bolted to the ceiling.
The thing is I wouldn't want things like refrigerators or freezers on GFCI circuits because if it nuisance trips when you are at work or not going to be home for some time, you might come home to a refrigerator or freezer full of spoiled food. I would never put these appliances on these types of circuits in the first place.
IMO these appliances should be required to have built-in GFCI that is smart enough to automatically reset after say 15 minutes to an hour, thereby both providing protection (by being a GFCI) AND eliminating the problem of nusicance tripping (by resetting itself after some time). Shouldn't even require that many additional components, the circuit is just "a little bit different" and requires maybe one supercapacitor to provide energy to the "reset" solenoid (or you know just make the "breaker" part of the GFCI a toggle relay instead of a normally open relay, that way it only takes a pulse of current to turn it on OR off). I'm an electronics hobbyist, if I can figure this stuff out, certainly they can, and there's some reason they're not doing it. It would be nice if someone could explain that reason to me (and if it's just cost, then it's time for a code change).
Hey could you possibly clear up the terminology in code "or fraction thereof" I have dealt with in show window outlets. Also in Island and peninsular countertops and work Surfaces .Definitely confuses me.
Most of appliances do have surge protection on the input on the inside there is blue disk type capacitors from phase to cpc and from neutral to cpc. They can some times fool some people doing PAT testing. This is in UK stuff all metallic casing is straped to earth cpc.
This Is Interesting Video. Not Sure If AFCI Is Same As Industrial Arc Flash Study, But A Few Years Ago I Was Involved With An Industrial Arc Flash Study For My Employer. The Original Was Done When Plant Was First Built (Finished In 2000/2001). Our Safety Director Insisted On A New/Updated One Since There Had Been Some Expansion Through The Years. It Was My Responsibility To Gather Info (Wire Size & Distance/Breaker Size And Settings/Connected Loads). Consultant Said To Only Include 480 And Above For Study (I Believe They Said 208VAC Cannot/Does Not Carry Enough Capacity/Energy For Sustained Arc Flash). Has 70E Been Updated (2015 Was When We Completed Study)To Include Lower Voltage In Residential Setting?
Other than cost, is there any reason to _not_ use AFCI and/or GFCI even if code doesn't _require_ it? Just thinking of the home owner who may be getting one or two more circuits run, why not have the electrician put in the protected breakers when the new branch circuits are run?
People's freezer get shut off due to AFCI or GFCI failure. Thousands of dollars of meat lost each time. GFCI and AFCI do not belong on freezers or fridges.
Well...a other note....about 20 years ago.....I had the home run receptical go bad and started to smoke in my Family Rm....an AFCI Breaker would've prevented that situation..so yes, they are not scams and do work!
So in areas that specify "Branch circuits rated 125 volts 15 or 20 amperes supplying OUTLETS or DEVICES (I would interpret that as receptacles, switches, light fixtures, basically anything that mounts to an electrical box) in SPECIFIC AREAS are required to have AFCI protection" Note we are not talking about appliances in this context. My interpretation is kinda mixed. Example #1. I have a dedicated 120v NEMA 5-20R for a professional grade treadmill in my living room. I know that must be AFCI protected because it's a branch circuit supplying a device, a receptacle in this case. Example #2. What if I have a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp circuit supplying a 120 volt 1500 watt baseboard heater that is hardwired, in a bedroom addition, without a line voltage thermostat which I interpret as a device which then would require AFCI. Would the hardwired 120 volt baseboard heater in this example require AFCI protection if I were just using the heater's built in thermostat? I would love to hear thoughts and comments
I brought up article 210.12 on your EV charger video. I researched the different Tesla chargers. They have built in GFCI. That problem is solved. If the EV charger is hanging in a garage, the charger has a plug and might also plug into a 650 or 14-50 receptacle. I assume the charger has to be AFCI protected?
AFCI protection is not required in garages at all. In areas where it IS required, only 120V, 15A and 20A circuits require AFCI. 240V circuits don't need AFCI at all. 210.12(A)
It remember its location location location. Damp locations like basements and garages were within 6' of watersource GFCI.. If it's in the garage you don't need AFC I. When you cross the threshold into the house through the garage it becomes AFC I from there on out that means if your washing machine is garage located GFCI is only required is only required not AFC I
Can't I just ground/arc fault the entire breaker box? Instead of individually having to purchase GFCI/AFCI, why not just straight up add it to the box? Is there such a thing?
IN OTHER WORDS...Each cycle, the equipment manufacturers pay off the right people at NFPA to get more of the pricey stuff made mandatory. In time you might see arc fault flashlights become a code requirement if the flashlight makers throw a few bucks their way.
So the user of that 50 amp service oven will be safe, but the electrician who may come to perform service on the oven (and may have to pull the oven out from the wall) won't have any GFCI protection??
For those complaining - on this 2yo video - about unwarranted tripping of AFCI, isn't that more an issue of manufacturers figuring out how to make their devices better, rather than the code being written ignorantly? Google tells me that the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) estimates that 30-40,000 home fires a year - 50-75% of them - are caused by arc faults. Sure, those are squishy numbers, but even 10k per year seems well worth the effort and inconvenience.
What’s the point of even making regular breakers anymore? If I have a “branch” to a washing machine, it may be an appliance, but the that appliance is fed by a branch. At this point, just install all afci/gfci breakers in the panel. Before everyone gets upset with the cost, labor is expensive and people spends thousands on a counter top. Maybe if we go 100%, the device cost will come down.
My window A/C that was brought in early 2020 has GFCI, built into the plug. I believe that most appliances that would want that protection have them included in the plugs nowadays. Not to say that it wouldn't be a bad idea to include it in the wiring of the home. It seems that most manufacturers are getting to the place where they include them on the appliances nowadays. I believe that the electrical codes in America do the bare minimum to protect the user and leave it up to the manufacturer. The unfortunate cost of having better protection is higher cost to build a home! It's a double edge sword as far as that kind of stuff goes. I believe they think it's a cheaper alternative to let the manufacturer include the protection in the product you buy instead of just making it safer in the new homes!
My window ac from 2007 has it in the cord so having gfci on every circuit is just silly. I have an older house with some floor outlets. They now are a big No no with out gfci protection and the outlets have to have those tamper proof gates and a cover when not in use.
Yah plugging a GFCI into a GFCI isn't going to work. And how many people are sticking paper clips in outlets? Plus if tamper-resistant is code, how come I can still buy regular outlets at the home center?
@@johnruskin4290 the tamper proof thing is to prevent kids from putting things in the outlet that's what I understand. Well here goes... we didn't have those when I grew up. Our parents taught us not to do things like that and they also watched and disciplined us more than parents do now. No parents are too busy on social media or playing video games to parent.
I still think arc fault protection is a scam. I'm not sure how you would test such a thing. I've seen RUclipsrs trying to trip an AFCI by simulating a frayed cord and fail to trip it. I'm not even sure why an electric dryer needs AFCI protection. The cords rarely move.
I lean towards this opinion. I tried to find out the stats on house fires caused by arc-faults and I could not find anything that suggested this is some huge problem requiring a whole new type of expensive breaker. Maybe the plug and outlet system could be made to fit more securely??
I LOVE your channel. I am a City Building Inspector. The problem is EXPERIENCED and Highly qualified electricians don't write the codes. Electrical Engineers with limited field experience or common sense write codes. It is my job as an inspector to interpret the intent of the code and many times I will side with the aspects of safety combined with common sense! I learn so much from experienced electricians and I am not afraid to ask questions and get second opinions. Some issues are black and white with the code, but there is some wiggle room for interpretation for many issues.
On the topic of common sense why are you wasting your talents working as some paid slave at some municipal government? I gave that up and make TRIPLE what I used to in my own commercial and residential property inspection business. I never bad-mouth other professions either as it's juvenile. I'm a professional engineer that also holds three journeyman certifications. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Don’t forget the insurance companies and manufacturers sit on these boards as well
But that's the issue, there should not be any interpertation. It should be a yes or no not maybe. You could get 10 different interpertations from 10 people.
If they think I'm going to AFCI-protect a branch circuit dedicated to a sump pump, they're been smoking those short cigarettes again. No way do I want the sump pump motor to trigger an arc detection and get shut down and flood the house, just cause the code says so.
Bonus points if its a sewage ejector pump and not just rainwater
There you go with that common sense again…jeez! LOL! Who writes these codes?
Sump pump, fridge, and kitchen counter receptacles get afci exemption in Canada. So do light circuits as long as they have no receptacles.
Gone are the days where code writers cared about nuisance tripping on things like freezers.
that ended when a commercial cleaning service had a guy get a severe shock from a malfunctioning commercial refrigerator.
@@kenbrown2808 that would have been protected against with GFCI. AFCI is even worse at nuisance trips than GFCI, honestly it's rare that I ever see nuisance trips on GFCI, but my one AFCI circuit I can barely use reliably due to nuisance trips.
@@fdmillion change the breaker. if it still nuisance trips, there is a bad connection or a crossed wire, somewhere.
@@kenbrown2808 Truth.
Oh, here's one for you - some Traeger grills had piss-poor wiring connections that arced and consistently tripped GFCIs in my experience, and customers would relentlessly beg me to just give them a regular receptacle outdoors and call it good.
@@Timocracy construction sites can be terrible. three extension cords with a splitter on the end and every plug lying in a puddle. "why won't the GFCI hold?"
As an appliance repair tech we have been factory trained to deny any warranty claims on these circuits if the appliance has an inverter in them. Most French Door and Side-by-Side refrigerator models cannot be on the “code” setups because the DC voltage conversion from the inverter is enough to trip the breaker or GFCI outlet. Some washers also have issues as they have MCUs acting as an inverter to run the Stator system. If it’s a Whirlpool or Frigidaire brand I highly recommend you avoid this code or pick a different brand if you’re trying to pass inspections on a new build.
But I appreciate the video, it helps to show my trainees so they learn the other trades that we deal with before they quote out the wrong diagnosis and send the customer the wrong way 🤙🏻
Just had that happen to me in my house. Recent inspection, so a new GFCI, and got a new GE washer. Tripped every time the washer started. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I looked up the specs on the GFCI I'd installed, and the trip time was rated super fast. Something like 10milliseconds when approaching a quarter amp. So I replaced the receptacle with one that was just listed as UL rated (Based on a quick google right now, that appears to be 25milliseconds), seemingly solved the problem. Probably won't die in those 15 milliseconds :-)
Maybe get the inspection passed, then once inspector is gone, remove these stupid things.
I'm learning more about home electrical in your vids than I have my whole LIFE!
THANKS!!!!! 🤩
Ugh... AFCIs are super annoying... inspector required them at all outlets of my basement development (including behind my fridge, microwave, etc.). I expected the technology to have evolved by now, in 2022. However, despite being brand new AFCIs, many would experience nuisance trips. Some were fixed right away by replacing with a different AFCI, others required a second replacement. Are some brands more prone to nuisance trips? I haven't been too happy with the Siemens Type Q AFCIs, but that's what the electrical contractor used by my homebuilder put in. As a final workaround, I've plugged in some WiFi smart plugs into outlets to monitor for loss of power, so that I get a notification on my phone if a circuit cuts out and food in my fridge/freezer is subject to going bad!
I'll just say that Siemens seem to be notorious for nuisance trips. It got so bad at my local supply house, that electricians all over were bringing them back in for replacements. When the supplier took them to Siemens, they were basically told to pound salt (they said that their electricians must not know how to install them).
Absolutely, if you don't mind them not working half the time.
So glad I don’t do residential anymore. Those AFCI GFCI combo breakers have nuisance trips all the time. Usually from vacuums or something with a motor. The code writers have to do something to validate their pay. Back in the 2000s any call back I got from tripping breakers from plug in equipment I would just install a regular breaker. Problem solved. If it was in a wet area the gfci would still have the life safety shut off.
Let’s not forget that the Manufacturers have a hand in writing code as well.....
More so insurance companies
@@OdinsThirdRaven Thats It.
im a diy er......all my breakers are AFCI GFCI....i used 12 gauge wire even for lighting.....i like things over spec a bit LOL
About AFCIs, how do they deal with things like vacuum cleaners and electric drills that have brushed motors? Brushed motors create arcs as the brushes switch from one segment of the commutator to the next. That is what would tear up the picture or sound on every TV and radio in the house. In fact, it would often disrupt the TV in neighboring houses.
in reference to gfci protection for stoves and the 6 foot rule, i did not know it was talking about the receptacle, i thought it was a contact issue between the stove chassis and water or wet surface....i remember back in the day when you couldn't touch the stove and refrigerator at the same time without getting zapped...thank you for you highly appreciated show
I'm in the process of adding several new branch circuits and I was starting to think I should just always use arc fault breakers everywhere from now on. However, I've seen these breakers be over sensitive so now I'm rethinking this.
They are crazy sensitive, i wouldn't if i don't have to, we've been having lots of issues with them tripping just from turning your lights on. specifically Seimens brand (because that's what we use)
I would definitely not use them if you don't have to... I've heard of people going back after the final electrical inspection and swapping them out just because they're so annoying.
@@williambills3260 yup $50+ per breaker.😳
@@williambills3260 back then it was knob and tube, which is quite a lot more robust if done right, i would however advise you check it out every so often, and be sure you put the correctly rated fuses in! doing that, it'll last just about forever. oh and be careful with the insulation, it can be brittle
@@williambills3260 i haven't heard about that, it should be fine for normal use, that seems a bit weird
THanks. I was hoping you'd also touch upon some of the real world problems encountered with certain appliances like refrigerators and washing machines that tend to trip to GFCIs
I have the same question!
As a residential helper, we always run the home run of one of the two 20a kitchen circuits to the fridge receptacle before the first GFCI so that it won’t trip it. Hope this sheds a little light.
@@daytonturner2265 That works, except in some jurisdictions the refrigerator must be GFCI protected. By the NEC it doesn't unless its plugged into a receptacle within 6 feet of a sink such as a countertop receptacle, but some municipalities require it.
thanks for the add. I was aware of the 6 foot rule but didn’t know some places required it.
So I guess there’d be 2 solutions then, either pull a separate circuit for the fridge or pull the home run to a fridge gfci outlet first, then pull a jumper to your first kitchen receptacle and make that a gfci outlet as well. Put the jumper to the kitchen gfci outlet in the line side of the fridge gfci so that the fridge outlet trippin will still allow current to flow through the bottom line screw holes. (And the kitchen gfci the jumper goes to will protect the rest of the circuit) correct me if I’m wrong thanks
@@daytonturner2265 A separate circuit is certainly the ideal solution. My refrigerator was on the same circuit as my GFCI protected countertop receptacles and tripped the GFCI a couple times, so I just ran a new circuit and put it on its own AFCI only breaker. Hasn't tripped since, totally code compliant here, and cost me under $40 since I already had extra 12/2 Romex, outlets, boxes, etc and just needed a breaker. Totally worth it to not have to worry about it tripping again and spoiling my food. Since the refrigerator is grounded, I see no reason for it to be GFCI protected since a short from hot to the refrigerator's chassis won't energize it anyways, it would simply trip the breaker. The odds of someone using a refrigerator so old that it is ungrounded is virtually zero.
Great information as always - I had the same discussion with my inspector about GFCI on the dedicated refrigerator plug.
Most of the customers I have WILL NOT pay for AFCI breakers. They put some in where required and then after inspection they go back in the box and get returned and the standard $5.00 breaker gets put in🤷♂️🙄
My old electrical teacher knew a Electrician who would do that with every home project that he worked on and was being inspected. I dont remember how he got caught by an inspector doing it but the guy ended up losing his electrical license because of it.
I did it on my own home. I got final and literally returned 1400 dollars worth of breakers. Replaced with 200 dollars worth.
Lots of people don't understand that GFCI and AFCI are protecting against _two completely different types of problems,_ which occur in different places and situations. GFCI is protecting against faults that can happen _in a piece of equipment_ or that humans can come in contact with. AFCI is about _protecting the building wiring._
It does not make any sense to "AFCI protect an appliance" because _the appliance is not where the problem occurs_ that AFCIs are intended to deal with. You AFCI protect _a circuit_ because it is the _circuit_ (wires in the wall) that the AFCI is designed to protect.
I'm planning a major electrical remodel and I'm concerned about AFCIs being required almost everywhere now. I do have one AFCI protected circuit and nuisance trips are *constant*. Motor surge current, speaker amplifiers, even LED lighting have caused trips either at power on or just randomly. If the circuit is idle it's fine, but run anything electronic on it and eventually it'll trip. Starting to wonder if I need to also get a UPS setup for my fridge and such... (Or just do what others say, buy the AFCIs just to pass inspection then swap them out for normal GFCI-only breakers at least on critical circuits...)
That's exactly what we do! The customers will not pay the high cost of the arc fault breakers. I keep some on hand for inspection when required and then the standard breaker goes back in.
I installed all AFCI breakers in my new home. Some have GGCI too. Haven't had a problem yet.. my washer and dryer are not in home they're in the utility shed with a regular breaker. No garbage disposal, I do have a dishwasher and a high end refrigerator plus a gas range. All lights are LED pod lights.
GFCI protection also requires resetting to be easily accessible. So, for ranges, built-in ovens, refrigerators pushed back against a wall between 2 cabinets, etc., what's your recommendation. These are going to be dedicated circuits so using a nearby GFCI outlet won't work. You don't want to have to pull the device out, so doing it at the breaker, which is not even in the same room, therefore not readily accessible, seems to be the only way. Also, if you have several pounds of meat in a freezer, you really don't want an easily tripped GFCI cutting power to it. So, recommendations? It seems as if the code has gone too far on some of this and the inspector you mentioned still had some common sense.
Well the easiest method is a gfci breaker and for large appliance it's the only method. Otherwise we sometimes put them under the sink open the door reset it gfci switch not the outlet type (especially for dishwashers).
@@MOtherBoardFire Yep, that's what I figured. So, you essentially have to violate the code to follow the code by making the reset not readily accessible. Also, who really wants their freezer in the garage being on a GFCI since they have a tendency to trip for, what seems like, no reason? I could see a $1000 of meat going bad over that one.
Yeah and the sucky thing is some washing machines have “issues” when being plugged into a afci/gfci outlet…..some just hate it; while others don’t care.
Anyone else have those fun troubles on service call and trying to figure why a homeowner’s new washing machine just won’t work, lol
not a washing machine, but i have had calls where customers are having breakers trip because they wanted to turn their lights on. apparently Seimens AFCI breakers don't like it when you turn your lights on
Big roasters don't work on GFCI either.
No problem with the washing machine, but the gas dryer tripped instantly. Plugged it instead into the circuit with the washer and a sanitary pump and the problem went away. Yes, the breaker then got changed.
I should add that the GFCI outlet was not a problem. It was the AFCI breaker that would trip.
concering dryers and gfci's, sometimes the nuetral is bonded to the appliance and will cause the gfci to trip. I can see this being done away with by appliance maufactures in the future, but that's how their designed so a homeowner can swap a chord rather than call an electrician.
Refrigerator, dryers might be a problem. The surge will pop that breaker at start up. also try to find a. 2 pole 30 amp gfci/afci for the dryer...
Do they make a main panel breaker thats both an arck fault protedted to home run, as well as gfci protecked ?
Can you go over how you need to wire circuits so the AFCI's don't nuisance trip.
Things that have motors that can shock you, it makes sense. But I think they are getting carried away with codes and ignoring nuisance trips. One- the GFCI/ACFI are not cheap. When you think two bucks a receptacle, then more for tamper-proof, and now 5-10x as much for GFCI and ACFI... hundreds of dollars for a single family home in outlets now. Sure, you can put a ACFI breaker in place, but again... for modern homes I can see that. BTW, lost several hundred dollars in meats and frozen produce to a nuisance tripped chest freezer. Happened once. Pulled that GFCI out and put in regular..I can as the home owner.
Losing hundreds of dollars of freezer contents when a GFCI trips is extremely common. You made the right call by eliminating the GFCI.
if you're paying over $2.00 for non tamper proof receptacles, you need to change hardware stores.
Egad, I'm currently living in a new apartment where I've called maintenance at least twice for flaky trips cause by AFCI's. Once on the dryer and once on the ceiling fan. Now I'm planning an off grid house, and trying to figure out a reasonably priced, resilient, expandable system, that gets past the inspector. One of the parts that I need is commonly available - in India - but not in America. A dang metal box where you can install a MCB!
Hi Dustin, I’m updating all countertop receptacles in a kitchen currently, and I have a question for ya. Right now the kitchen has no GFCI or AFCI protection. All kitchen receptacles are fed from 2 single pole 20A circuits with a shared neutral. So I’m wondering, is it possible to do 2 single pole 20A Combination Circuit Breakers when there’s only one grounded wire to work with? I would also use a handle tie in order to comply with code. Love your videos man, keep up the hard work.
As of now, and I've been doing extensive research on this matter because multiwire branch circuits for kitchens were very commonplace in the 70s and 80s, there are currently no manufacturers that have available dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers. You could make the kitchen safer, by using a two pole 20 amp GFCI breaker, but you definitely want to work with your local inspector because typically existing circuits fall under the grandfather clause, but if you do any additions or modifications that's when your likely required to bring it up to current code, which can get very expensive quickly. With the NEC seemingly adding locations which require GFCI and/or AFCI protection with each new code cycle I wouldn't be at all surprised to see dual function AFCI/GFCI two pole breakers come on the market before the end of the decade. To answer your question, no, you cannot share a neutral on two dual function breakers with a handle tie, because they would be constantly tripping due to the unbalance between L1 to N and L2 to N, the new code requirements for GFCI and AFCI made multiwire circuits a thing of the past despite it being a more efficient use of labor and material vs pulling two separate runs of 12/2 NM like we would in new construction.
Was so excited I almost skipped the commercial.
Thx for your clear, concise, complete explanations. My issue: I recently installed a ceiling fan in the living room that's on the same breaker as the bathroom. The breaker is AFCI, and we get nuisance tripping occasionally. Could the ceiling fan motor be causing the tripping, or should I look elsewhere for the cause? Keep in mind the ceiling fan box is 18 ft up, so I want to check all possibilities before renting equipment to re-check the ceiling fan connection. Thx!
Depending on how the wiring is run, you might be able to move the source for the fan to a different circuit somewhere other than in the ceiling box. Otherwise you'll probably just have to leave it shut off for a long enough period to see if it affects the likelihood of false-trips.
Did you get false-trips before putting it in? Was the AFCI installed at the same time?
To me, a GFCI isn't just to protect when plugging/unplugging but if a fault develops in the device plugged into that outlet. If the insulation on a wire in that stove/oven fails, the body of the stove/oven could be electrically energized. If one happened to reach for the faucet at the same time touching the stove that would be very bad.
That's not really what a GFCI is "for". That's what the ground itself is for, since that should cause a short to ground and trip the breaker. GFCI's primary purpose isn't as a backup to proper grounding (although it does function that way too), it's to protect against other paths from the hot directly through a person, for example via water.
@@sweepingdenver In a perfect world, the ground connection would take all of the current flow to ground, exceed the current rating for the breaker by a substantial amount, and the breaker would open. But what happens if one of those "perfect world" requirements doesn't happen? Keep in mind that the stove/oven might have a 30 or 50 amp breaker and anything over 0.005 amp (5 milliamps) can be fatal. That means that literally 99.99% of the current leakage current could be going to ground without tripping the breaker and the one part in ten-thousand that flows through a person's body could kill them.
THAT IS WHAT A GFCI IS MEANT TO PREVENT.
I noticed your books include some on physics and particle physics. You must take an interest in the scientific side of electrical. I do too, but I'm not quite there yet, still need to master the basics.
We install gfci/arc fault breakers on everything except 220 v plugs or 120 volt furnaces. We do however have to gfci protect any 220 volt plug in garages. They are a headache and I would put regular breakers on anything like a refrigerator etc that that is the only thing being on that circuit and is not going to be exposed to water. That being said having to pull two separate kit circuits we used to homerun to fridge then catch couple kit plugs and thar would be 1 of our 2 kit circuits but now we dedicate the fridge. I recommend dedicating the fridge anyway because of what it is.
I just need to extend a 20A branch circuit from one outbuilding to another (via new underground line) for the sake of adding some outlets in that second building.
No water or wet conditions in either building. I'll probably make sure the first outlet in the first outbuilding is an AF/GFCI outlet, I'll use 12-gauge wiring (because of the 20A breaker), I'll probably use 20A outlets in the second outbuilding.
I think I'm all set for that, with a little more reading up on whether I need the AFCI feature at all. Now I just need to figure out the whole grounding thing (find out how the existing branch circuit is grounded and if I need additional grounding measures on the extension or just extend the existing ground wire through the new outlets).
So if your oven's receptacle need to be GFI, cut the cord, wire it permanently and you just saved about 200$! 😉
LOL Then the home owner is hiring an electrician overtime that range needs replaced. With today's modern quality of appliances, the average would be 5-10 years at most.
GFCI protection for a receptacle of that size would come from the breaker and not locally at the plug like a normal nema 5-15 GFCI. So cutting the cord would do nothing because it's the breaker that would have to be reset
@@zeddpilsner4 permanent wiring would mean no GFCI because it's the receptacle needing protection, not the oven...
@@drewbrown9678 then, why are (90%) dishwashers not with a plug? Anyway, any homeowner is able to disconnect something, it's when they have to put a branch in panel, or reconnect something they call the electrician.
@3:56 That was a bad idea !
My wife was washing the stove top put her hand on the sink and got a shock for some reason .
Yeah Dustin and the inspector both got this one wrong. The point of a GFCI is not just about people sticking stuff in the outlet. It's to protect people when metal becomes electrified. He also could have explained how the AFCI is to protect the wiring which is why you can't use an AFCI receptacle unless the home run is in conduit.
Isn't the point of the ground to deal with metal getting electrified? I'm guessing the stove if 240 electric, didn't have 4 prongs, just 2 hots an a neutral. I'm a bit disturbed by all the changes to electric code however. Thought we had all this figured out and standardized by the 1960s! The big problem besides cost to implement, is that average handyman is not updated on changes and their purpose, nor is the store selling the product.
@@johnruskin4290 hopefully you mean 2 hots and a ground, not 2 hots and a neutral.
Using a neutral as a safety ground can get you shocked.
@@roflchopter11
I deal with maintenance at my Church. All of our buildings are at least 50 years old and I've yet to see any of the 50amp 240v outlets for fryers or cloths dryers that weren't recently installed not have the third pin connected to anything other than the neutral buss. With the newer 4 pin outlets there are 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. Most of our stuff is grounded via the conduit and most panels don't have separate ground terminals. I understand the need for safety, yet we act like there have been so many accidents and have to change everything, yet most of these installations are troubled free. In the case of 240v, you turn the breaker off before unplugging. As for the guys wife getting shocked I can accept changing a 3 pin to a 4pin outlet so long as I can pull another wire. I can't however add arc-fault breakers to vintage Square D NQOB panels. The whole concept with arc-fault was to protect old knob and tube circuits, however since most share the same neutral it didn't work for the intended application. Speaking of knob and tube, the funny thing is some of those old systems originally fused the neutral as well as the hot. Now with the GFCI and AFCI breakers needing a neutral hook up we are back to the same.
Have they figured out how to fix these things so RF doesn't trip them? Even after doing a lot to try and avoid it I am still tripping GFCIs randomly when I pull into the driveway talking on a 25-50 watt VHF radio...I hear AFCIs are even worse.
Yes i know we are supposed to GFCI protect refridgerators and freezers but I think its a dumb thing and try to avoid it. I had a lot of customers loose food when the GFCI nuisance tripped.
We get this call all the time. Advise customers to sue who ever installed the AFCI/GFCI for food lost.
@@drewbrown9678 hard to fault the installer when code requires it. Sue the government. But they'll fight you with an unlimited warchest stocked by your tax dollars.
I forget the exact reason but many motors have problems with GFCIs.
Lets just get the poco rot provide AFCI protection with their supply and put the burden of callbacks on them. Good idea?
Can you comnent on a how a fridge might react with an AFCI if it has an inverter? My french door fridge is broadcasting serious RFI into multiple rooms. Thanks
Do they even make AFCI / Dual Function Breakers for 30A and up circuits? Can't seem to find any.
Of course....we are talking about adding new circuits....not existing circuits. What I absolutely LOVE is these damn Home Inspectors who start testing circuits and then they start quoting NEC codes. I literally had a heated argument about counter recepticals requiring GFCI protection.....in a house built in 1981.......Anyway he said to me this counter needs to be GFCI protected(keeping in mind it it 15 ft from any water source).....I told himit doesn't but if he would've looked at the panel, he would've noticed Breaker #31 was an AFCI/ GFCI Breaker....it was my house and put that in when I replaced the panel 3 years ago!
Ya'll stay safe and sane out there!
best explanations out there, thank you!
I'm going to make this simple. The code refers to where you HAVE to use one of these devices. Often you'll come across situations where you don't have to use one, but it's probably a good idea for peace of mind. Personally I'd rather spend the extra money so I can sleep better. A code is only written when a problem has come up from result of some condition or unforeseen factor, hence the changes in codes from year to year. I know arc fault devices are sensitive. Use them accordingly. One day GFCI is going to be required for every application. It's just a matter of time. I hate to say this but safety is no accident. On a personal note I'd like to see any extension cord smaller than 14 gauge be banned. Party on dude.
Yeah, those 100 foot 18 gauge extension cords, made in...who knows where...are sketchy big time.
@@larryroyovitz7829 The problem I have with extensions is that a 15 amp circuit uses a 14 gauge wire. then someone plugs in a 16 gauge extension and tries to power a window ac or other high current device and causes a fire while they are in bed sleeping. For a single lamp it's just fine. I think anything smaller than. #14 connected to a 15 amp circuit is dangerous.
@@rickhunt3183 I agree, that's the same problem I have. I wasn't being sarcastic, I literally mean there are 16 gauge, 100 foot extension cords made in China. I've seen them...scary ass shit.
Ever feel how warm a vacuum cord gets? They are often 16 or 18 gauge wire! Who thought that was ok? I'm also perplexed by 20 gauge from the ballast in fluorescent lights.
@@johnruskin4290 while wires can typically operate at temperatures over 150 degrees. Any heat produced by wire resistance is wasted power. If a 14 gauge is hot bumping it up to a 12 isn't a bad idea. Sometimes you'll find a hard ass inspector that insists a 15 amp circuit needs a 14 gauge wire and I'll say, but this wire is bigger so it's safer, and runs cooler, and he'll say pull it all the 12 and install 14.. Hard to believe I know, because an inspector is an electrician, and knows this stuff. Always start off being nice and respectful even if they are an idiot.
What section of the code bppk are the codes for lowvoltage wireing such sa eathernet cable and coax cable for the home
Out of curiosity why do campgrounds RV receptacles not have to be gfci'd. Numerous times I've been zapped when touching the metal frame of my camper after plugging into a faulty receptacle. When I installed a 50 amp RV receptacle at home I used a GFCI and never had a problem.
Anyone experience issues with computer/media/ gaming equipment on afci/gfci breaker? Heard some stuff doesn't like afci/gfci breakers.
check your state's specialty code. AFCIs are being pushed hard by manufacturers, and the consequence I'm seeing is people are overloading general lighting circuits in order to reduce the number of breakers they have to buy. some states are choosing to only require AFCI protection on general lighting circuits and specifically NOT require it in kitchens, laundry rooms, garages, etc.
and the fact of the matter is, more problems are happening because of overloaded circuits, and sometimes because the handyman comes in and replaces the AFCI breaker with an oversized standard breaker.
In Arkansas the fire marshal said we had to put them in dwelling units... but that he only counts dwelling units as where someone actually sleeps. Anywhere else he only cares about if it requires GFCI protection.
Arc faults are nothing but a NUISANCE! Sometimes can't even use a vacuum cleaner as it trips let alone turn a light on as it reads the arc signature of the switch being flipped with a load on it. One customer with a whole house reno went out of his mind as we explained it won't pass inspection unless these breakers are installed. He replaced all the nuisance ones after the job was finished and all final inspections. Its a RACKET!
did it on my own house. I passed and an hour later was replacing breakers. Returned the seimens afci/gfci for 1400 bucks.
I don't think it was mentioned, but AFCI is only required on 120V, 15A and 20A circuits. Not required on any 240V circuits (210.12(A)). Also, 210.12(A) says that circuits require AFCI protection when there's an outlet OR DEVICE in one of the specified locations. So, for example, a circuit that supplies outdoor lighting doesn't need AFCI, BUT if the switch that controls those lights is in a hallway, or living room, or kitchen, or some other area that DOES require AFCI, then you need to AFCI protect it, since the device (switch) is in an area that requires AFCI.
actually, unless they changed the verbiage, an outside light switched from an AFCI required location doesn't have to be AFCI protected. but - are you going to run a dedicated circuit to take that one light off the AFCI circuit? considering that with modern LED lighting, a good electrician will run two light circuits, so if one needs to be shut off for service or modification, half of the house will still have light.
@@kenbrown2808 I read 210.12(A) again, and it doesn't mention an exception for outdoor lighting. It simply says "All 120V, single phase, 15A and 20A branch circuits supplying outlets or devices in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms (etc...)....shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6). There's an exception at the end for fire alarm circuits, and that's it.
@@jonclark1288 they may have changed the verbiage, then. as I said, it's a moot point because I'm not going to waste my time running a dedicated unprotected lighting circuit across a house to supply one outside light.
@@kenbrown2808 I was just using outdoor lighting as an example. My point was, if a switch is in an area that needs AFCI, you need to AFCI protect it, even if the load that it controls doesn't need AFCI.
Another good example is a detached garage with an outdoor light mounted on it. The garage has its own subpanel, which feeds the light. That doesn't need AFCI, but what if you want to also be able to control the light from the house? You run some travelers from the garage to the house and install a 3-way switch right next to the back door in the kitchen. Boom, now you need an AFCI breaker in your garage subpanel.
@@jonclark1288 and my point was that originally, switches were not included in the rules. they may have changed the verbiage when they expanded AFCI coverage to everything they could get away with. as for your garage light, just put a line voltage RF switch in and no travelers needed.
Thank you Dustin.
I wonder if my house wouldn't have burned down if the outlet my portable AC unit was on had an AFCI breaker. The inspector said the fire started somewhere up in the attic where the wires were ran.
My portable A/C for my bedroom trips the AFCI constantly so I have to power it from the non-AFCI (GFCI'd) washroom circuit.
Due to the nuisance tripping of AFCI breakers their are certain circuits I would not use them Furnace,Refrigerator,Freezer.
Yeah, I imagine certain motors may be problematic.
Also I tried using a GFCI around a 50mhz ham radio of mine and it kept tripping off.
@@jeffkardosjr.3825 I don’t know I have them in my home and they seam to trip with out rime or reason may go 6 months with out then 3 trip in one week on 3 different circuits. Won’t use one on a critical circuit.
This is a good topic to bring up with Mike Holt. I'm certain he could provide some useful information and clarification.
id suggest you email ryan jackson. youll usually get a pretty quick reply. he also works closely with mike holt on occasion.
If the ground is touching the neutral anywhere past the main point of disconnect in a circuit or will cause what is known as "nuisance" tripping. I do lots of service work and install AFCI breakers all the time on old panels and rarely have issues.
I’ve opened a lot of receptacles where ground and neutral were joined. I feel like in my area there must have been a sparky who thought that was the way to do it.
I have couple questions for you
I have a new house built in 2021 and I’m in the process of finishing the basement and I pulled the cover off the main breaker panel and found that 99% of my breakers are AFCI two pole breakers and the neutral and power wires are both Terminated on the breaker with a jumper going from the neutral wire to the neutral busbar in the panel 60 and the grounds and neutrals are separated in the panel
There is no other service disconnect other than the main breaker in the panel From the main service feed
My question is are the neutrals and grounds separated in the main panel because of the AFCI Breakers or am I missing something
Thanks in advance…
“Tesla charger”
Love it.
Find out the code book used in your area. 2020 may be the latest but your county inspectors may be using older 2017. In that case you would not have to do what's in 2020.
How about a dedicated circuit that is hard wired?
Example: An electric heater in a garage.
240v 30a run directly from a breaker to a box mounted on a wall stud with a whip from the box to the heater that is permanently bolted to the ceiling.
Safety is our number 1 priority so the information is always welcome.
Safety is the buss word to sell you anything ,safety or not, and it works, Your comment (sheepee)
Does the bathroom Heat/Vent/Light have to be AFCI and GFCI protected?
Dustin, When installing SER cable do you recommend CU or AL? (copper or Aluminum)
copper.
¿Las luces de techo de las habitaciones deben tener AFCI or GFCI?
Love your videos. Was wondering what your thoughts are on receptacles on peninsulas. Specifically the 12" horizontal interpretation. Whats that mean?
Did I hear that correctly all recepticals need to be GFCI regardless of exposure to water now?
I always install dual purpose AFCI/GFCI outlets?
The thing is I wouldn't want things like refrigerators or freezers on GFCI circuits because if it nuisance trips when you are at work or not going to be home for some time, you might come home to a refrigerator or freezer full of spoiled food. I would never put these appliances on these types of circuits in the first place.
IMO these appliances should be required to have built-in GFCI that is smart enough to automatically reset after say 15 minutes to an hour, thereby both providing protection (by being a GFCI) AND eliminating the problem of nusicance tripping (by resetting itself after some time).
Shouldn't even require that many additional components, the circuit is just "a little bit different" and requires maybe one supercapacitor to provide energy to the "reset" solenoid (or you know just make the "breaker" part of the GFCI a toggle relay instead of a normally open relay, that way it only takes a pulse of current to turn it on OR off).
I'm an electronics hobbyist, if I can figure this stuff out, certainly they can, and there's some reason they're not doing it. It would be nice if someone could explain that reason to me (and if it's just cost, then it's time for a code change).
I never do just for that exact reason!
Hey could you possibly clear up the terminology in code "or fraction thereof" I have dealt with in show window outlets. Also in Island and peninsular countertops and work Surfaces .Definitely confuses me.
Most of appliances do have surge protection on the input on the inside there is blue disk type capacitors from phase to cpc and from neutral to cpc. They can some times fool some people doing PAT testing. This is in UK stuff all metallic casing is straped to earth cpc.
This Is Interesting Video. Not Sure If AFCI Is Same As Industrial Arc Flash Study, But A Few Years Ago I Was Involved With An Industrial Arc Flash Study For My Employer. The Original Was Done When Plant Was First Built (Finished In 2000/2001). Our Safety Director Insisted On A New/Updated One Since There Had Been Some Expansion Through The Years. It Was My Responsibility To Gather Info (Wire Size & Distance/Breaker Size And Settings/Connected Loads). Consultant Said To Only Include 480 And Above For Study (I Believe They Said 208VAC Cannot/Does Not Carry Enough Capacity/Energy For Sustained Arc Flash). Has 70E Been Updated (2015 Was When We Completed Study)To Include Lower Voltage In Residential Setting?
Other than cost, is there any reason to _not_ use AFCI and/or GFCI even if code doesn't _require_ it? Just thinking of the home owner who may be getting one or two more circuits run, why not have the electrician put in the protected breakers when the new branch circuits are run?
People's freezer get shut off due to AFCI or GFCI failure. Thousands of dollars of meat lost each time. GFCI and AFCI do not belong on freezers or fridges.
Nuisance trips, especially if it spoils food or floods your basement.
Well...a other note....about 20 years ago.....I had the home run receptical go bad and started to smoke in my Family Rm....an AFCI Breaker would've prevented that situation..so yes, they are not scams and do work!
So in areas that specify "Branch circuits rated 125 volts 15 or 20 amperes supplying OUTLETS or DEVICES (I would interpret that as receptacles, switches, light fixtures, basically anything that mounts to an electrical box) in SPECIFIC AREAS are required to have AFCI protection" Note we are not talking about appliances in this context.
My interpretation is kinda mixed. Example #1. I have a dedicated 120v NEMA 5-20R for a professional grade treadmill in my living room. I know that must be AFCI protected because it's a branch circuit supplying a device, a receptacle in this case.
Example #2. What if I have a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp circuit supplying a 120 volt 1500 watt baseboard heater that is hardwired, in a bedroom addition, without a line voltage thermostat which I interpret as a device which then would require AFCI. Would the hardwired 120 volt baseboard heater in this example require AFCI protection if I were just using the heater's built in thermostat? I would love to hear thoughts and comments
I brought up article 210.12 on your EV charger video. I researched the different Tesla chargers. They have built in GFCI. That problem is solved. If the EV charger is hanging in a garage, the charger has a plug and might also plug into a 650 or 14-50 receptacle. I assume the charger has to be AFCI protected?
AFCI protection is not required in garages at all. In areas where it IS required, only 120V, 15A and 20A circuits require AFCI. 240V circuits don't need AFCI at all. 210.12(A)
Afci protection required on 240 Elec range and dryer?
It remember its location location location. Damp locations like basements and garages were within 6' of watersource GFCI.. If it's in the garage you don't need AFC I. When you cross the threshold into the house through the garage it becomes AFC I from there on out that means if your washing machine is garage located GFCI is only required is only required not AFC I
Very good to know.
Thank you.
good info. thank you
Good job man
Can't I just ground/arc fault the entire breaker box? Instead of individually having to purchase GFCI/AFCI, why not just straight up add it to the box? Is there such a thing?
IN OTHER WORDS...Each cycle, the equipment manufacturers pay off the right people at NFPA to get more of the pricey stuff made mandatory. In time you might see arc fault flashlights become a code requirement if the flashlight makers throw a few bucks their way.
I got one for ya…what about a toilet bidet? Separate circuit? I figure yes on Afci/GFCI.
So the user of that 50 amp service oven will be safe, but the electrician who may come to perform service on the oven (and may have to pull the oven out from the wall) won't have any GFCI protection??
That's funny. Only one state requires an electrical certificate to work on appliances, Washington. And even that is overkill.
Are these arc-fault breakers actually making homes safer? I'd love to see some data.
No
I guess it's not
There isn't any
I didn’t quite understand.
I thought the washer and dryer has to be on GFCI breaker cuz water hoses, drain is within 6ft.
Can some one explain that ?
Thank you for the great information you're awesome
How am I supposed to GFCI protect my 220V EV charging outlet on the exterior of my house when the charger also has GFCI built in?
For those complaining - on this 2yo video - about unwarranted tripping of AFCI, isn't that more an issue of manufacturers figuring out how to make their devices better, rather than the code being written ignorantly?
Google tells me that the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) estimates that 30-40,000 home fires a year - 50-75% of them - are caused by arc faults. Sure, those are squishy numbers, but even 10k per year seems well worth the effort and inconvenience.
Outdoor subpanel?
Now we have to get the appliance manufacturers to work on their design to prevent AFCIs from tripping.
What’s the point of even making regular breakers anymore? If I have a “branch” to a washing machine, it may be an appliance, but the that appliance is fed by a branch. At this point, just install all afci/gfci breakers in the panel. Before everyone gets upset with the cost, labor is expensive and people spends thousands on a counter top. Maybe if we go 100%, the device cost will come down.
A diagram of a residence would be helpful. I'm a visual learner.
My window A/C that was brought in early 2020 has GFCI, built into the plug. I believe that most appliances that would want that protection have them included in the plugs nowadays. Not to say that it wouldn't be a bad idea to include it in the wiring of the home. It seems that most manufacturers are getting to the place where they include them on the appliances nowadays. I believe that the electrical codes in America do the bare minimum to protect the user and leave it up to the manufacturer. The unfortunate cost of having better protection is higher cost to build a home! It's a double edge sword as far as that kind of stuff goes. I believe they think it's a cheaper alternative to let the manufacturer include the protection in the product you buy instead of just making it safer in the new homes!
My window ac from 2007 has it in the cord so having gfci on every circuit is just silly.
I have an older house with some floor outlets. They now are a big No no with out gfci protection and the outlets have to have those tamper proof gates and a cover when not in use.
Yah plugging a GFCI into a GFCI isn't going to work. And how many people are sticking paper clips in outlets? Plus if tamper-resistant is code, how come I can still buy regular outlets at the home center?
@@johnruskin4290 the tamper proof thing is to prevent kids from putting things in the outlet that's what I understand. Well here goes... we didn't have those when I grew up. Our parents taught us not to do things like that and they also watched and disciplined us more than parents do now. No parents are too busy on social media or playing video games to parent.
I still think arc fault protection is a scam. I'm not sure how you would test such a thing. I've seen RUclipsrs trying to trip an AFCI by simulating a frayed cord and fail to trip it. I'm not even sure why an electric dryer needs AFCI protection. The cords rarely move.
I lean towards this opinion. I tried to find out the stats on house fires caused by arc-faults and I could not find anything that suggested this is some huge problem requiring a whole new type of expensive breaker. Maybe the plug and outlet system could be made to fit more securely??
I've tripped a GFCI with a 50mhz ham radio. I wonder how problematic AFCIs are with radio transmitters.
Love your videos man, can you do some on motor controls and or temperature controls??
excellent video!!
Sounds like I need to Arch and Ground fault protect every circuit in the dwelling based on the direction things are going 😉
Indiana still operates under 2008 NEC. Hope these days continue until smart panels exist.
I know this is a forest for the trees comment, but I wanted to say that I dunno whose legs those are at 2:05 doing the laundry, but they are nice! :-)
Thank