It is explained in a line of dialogue from The Doctor Falls that the Master is in disguise because he was the one who ran the society of Mondasians into the dirt. The Doctor deduces that he crashed his TARDIS on the ship, set himself up as ruler of the society, destroyed everything and then was overthrown by the people, which is why he has to survive by pretending to be a little hospital goblin.
And the fact Moffat is seemingly making fun of Simm's Master writing all this BUT IS ALSO BEING ACCURATE is so fun, he would totally do that, that would totally happen, gobling hospital is what you getting 😂
Bill spends around 10 years on the ship despite it only being a minute or two from The Doctor’s perspective, so The Master presumably saw The TARDIS on the video feed of the bridge decades before she arrived at the bottom of the ship, and in that time, he presumably guessed correctly that The Doctor’s companion would be from 21st century Earth and would remember him being the British prime minister.
I feel Moffat knew how to write Cybermen (for the most part) in the same vein as how RTD knew how to write the Daleks (for the most part). Yet RTD didn't know how to write The Cybermen and Moffat didn't know how to write the Daleks.
The whole bit about the good tea and the bad tea is one of my favourite Who moments. "Good attitude, will help with the horror to come" "What horror?" "Mainly the tea". Also, I've always enjoyed the bit where the Master says he loves disguises. Reminded me of Delgado and Ainlee spending half their time pretending to be someone else.
The makeup for John Simm as Mr. Razor is really good, and I actually didn't know he was coming back for Season 10, so I was genuinely surprised by this twist.
I knew Simm would appear because of the trailers but I had totally forgotten about it until Mr Razor revealed he was the Master so that still surprised me
I don't know, I always thought that the Master's presence in Bill's story was very important, especially because the Master loves to mess with the Doctor's companions (which in turn messes with the Doctor by proxy). He's basically trolling Bill the whole time and I think that's an important part of the story, myself. If it was just a random guy, I really don't think it would have as much of an emotional gut-punch to it once he's revealed to be the Master. The Master was playing a long game with the Doctor through Bill and it was brutal af.
And his messing is strengthened even further when you find out that that the Master basically helped Bill restore her hope only to take it away and convert her to a Cyberman...
I also always felt that Bill’s storyline and the two contrasting Masters complemented each other in terms of a theme of ‘identity change’. Bill experiences the horrific prospect of ‘degenerating’ (so to speak) into an entity much lesser than her normal self which will eventually erase her feelings and individuality, whilst the Master has to confront him/her selves and the differentness of both ‘regenerations’, Missy being potentially the more morally mature, but eventually scuppered in her tracks (admittedly in the next episode) by her past. Also, in terms of explaining how Simm’s Master knew when and where to be in order to carry out his plan with Bill, we maybe make the (understandable) mistake of assuming Missy’s Master is chronologically after Simm’s. It could be another of Moffatt’s paradoxes whereby Simm-Master knows to be when/where he needs to because Missy was chronologically before him and therefore already experienced this. Of course, that brings up a number of other problems, not least of which is how Missy survives being ‘killed’ in TDF in order to regenerate into whomever she did prior to Jacobi/Simms. But then, it’s sci-fi fantasy - it’s not like show can’t just pluck an imaginative explanation out of thin air for that :-D
@@iancossey105 I thought this episode and TDF made it fairly clear that Missy was after Jacobi/Simms. The Master's reveal has him spouting the line "I'm very worried about my future" meaning he is worried about what Missy is becoming. The Doctor Falls expands on that by showing that the Master is dead against ever helping the Doctor or even the idea that a future regeneration might do that.
@@dansharp2860 Also, despite Missy first claiming she didn’t remember being there before, she clearly did. And that is pointed out in more than one exchange between her and The Master in the next episode. As she does remember being there before, she already knew she would be shot in the back so presumably had already figured out a way to prevent her “death”. Far less complicated story telling-wise than Missy being a version of The Master that came before Simm.
Yes the Master was spoiled. Yes the Mondasian Cybermen were announced (Which I never thought of as a spoiler if I'm honest, just some great marketing as Capaldi had been vocal about loving them). However, even knowing Simm was returning I spent the entire episode wondering when he was going to turn up, even while watching Razor. I only realised when he began to talk to Missy and I was like Ohhhhhhhh! I do rlly like this finale, and this series as a whole needs way more love, but I always forget how much of a Doctor-Lite episode this first part it. But the atmosphere and tension is done perfectly. Capaldi and Gomez are on point, but Mackie sells the whole thing!
To my memory pretty much all the questions got answered at the start of the next episode. Given that Simm was just revealed at the END of this story that seems perfectly reasonable. I will defend the fact that the Master and the Cybermen have to share a story when they could have been separate because the story is dealing with a lot of preservation Vs evolution themes. Missy wants to change, Simm doesn't, Mondasions want to change into cybermen, Bill didn't want to change, the Doctor doesn't want to change. There's a lot of metacommentry here, the show has to ask itself all the time: How much do we need to change Vs How do we keep being the show we are.
I believe the Doctor mentions in the next episode that the Master basically landed with a damaged Tardis on the ship, sort of took control before the people revolted therefore forcing him into a new identity Mr Razor (while he presumably planned an escape using the cyber men). Then Bill came and it became or important to keep you the false identity as she would recognise him. The former prime minister line was a nod to Bill and the audience - but also the entire colony on the ship. He was the leader at one point. Unless I am remembering The Doctor Falls conversation wrong?
FYI the black hole slowing down time is pretty accurate. I have a very big physics friend who doesn’t like Satan pit/impossible planet because of how broken the physics are around the black hole in that story. Yeah physics can be fun/terrifying/really weird
This was my favourite episode of series 10... it had a proper classic who mystery and body horror vibe going on and I had almost forgotten about John Simm being confirmed for S10 until his genuinely surprising reveal!
I could have sworn there was a line where The Master says he's in the disguise because he used to rule the Mondasians and they overthrew him at some point. Maybe that's in the next episode though
6:06 genius. Pain isn't an emotion; it's external as opposed to internal. And your brain prioritises external threat; pain cancers out emotion, therefore. This is why people self-harm. To have these Cybermen be living in constant pain just says so much about their existence.
This is EASILY the best Cybermen story of the revival, it’s not even close. I think this is the only story that fully understands them as antagonists and it’s conclusion to Missy’s arc was a true Greek tragedy. The Sci-Fi elements are great, it’s directed brilliantly and the acting is top notch. I prefer The Doctor Falls to World Enough and Time but they’re both fantastic. If I had to rank the finales this would be my choice: 1. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang 2. World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls 3. Heaven Sent/Hell Bent 4. The Name of the Doctor 5. Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways 6. The Wedding of River Song 7. Dark Water/Death in Heaven 8. Army of Ghosts/Doomsday 9. Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords 10. The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End 11. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos 12. Ascension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children
While I haven't watched the entire episode recently, I HAVE watched the final scene DOZENS of times! I just LOVE the reveal of the Master and of how Bill is a Cyberman know. Add the reaction from the Doctor to the Master coming into the room, and it's a perfect cliffhanger for me, second only to the cliffhanger in Army of Ghosts. Both are AMAZING to watch over and over again :)
So this episode is a masterpiece i mean that.This isa perfect example of pg 13 horror.Amazing internam mechanic the best use of time dilation ive ever seen in fiction.The cybermen are done here better than anywhere else except maybe spare parts.This is THE BEST CYBERMAN STORY as a complete package. Epic intro and some heart twisting moments Now its comparision to Spare parts Doctor:-12 wins this easily .His 10 minutes of screentime beats 5 in this story. Companion:- As great as nyssa is Bill wins this one cause this is her story. Side characters:-I love missy,nardole,razor,etc but this one goes to spare parts and it isnt close. World building :-Very very very close but i gotta give to spare parts just because we see more of the world. Atmosphere:- WEAT wins this because the 1st 2 parts are weak in comparision to parts 3,4 and WEAT Amazing moments:-Spare parts has The convo between the daughter and her family,the doctor being converted and the ending.WEAT has many more, so it wins this one Sci fi concepts:-Id give this to Spare parts if we only include this episode,but if the idea of cybermen evolving at the bottom of the ship from the doctor falls WEAT will win this one. So i prefer WEAT mainly beacause i care more about bill than Yvonne and it is much more condensed whereas spare parts drags in the begining. I feel Spare parts should be recreated as a 1hr 40 min story in the show. This would make it a great viewing experiance imo. 9.5/10 and the 2nd part is even better ,but qbout that next week
Sadly the time dialation effect from the black hole is backwards. The back of the ship would think the front of the ship was moving at super speed, and the front would see the back almost stopped
This two-part finale is not just the best Cybermen story of Modern Who, but one of the best Cybermen stories ever. These two episodes offer the perfect examination into what makes the Cybermen a true threat; 'World Enough and Time' shows us the grotesque body horror, while 'The Doctor Falls' shows us how truly relentless and never-ending they are. Bringing back the original 1966 Mondasian versions was a stroke of genius by Steven Moffat, taking what can be considered a ridiculous old design and making it sting, and that design is probably now my favourite Cyberman design alongside the 80's versions. Also, bringing back John Simm's Master and pairing him with Michelle Gomez's Missy was a great bonus. This was a great start to Capaldi's final adventure.
Throwback to the time that I used my Masters in Mathematics to calculate the actual time dilation that space ship would have been under - long story short, yes the science behind it is there, and time dilation would occur, but they didn't quite get it right, particularly in The Doctor Falls (the time dilation between the level the cybermen were on and the level that the Doctor et al were on would be negligible, so the rapid advancement of the Cybermen is unlikely.) You're welcome.
Pearl Mackie has been amazing this whole series as Bill, but these last two episodes were phenomenal for her in particular. I remember when I first saw this that I knew the Master was supposed to be in the series, but at no point during the episode did I think Mr. Razor was him in disguise - not until he started talking to Missy. That was when my brain went, wait, wait.... It's such a lovely throwback to Anthony Ainley's Master to have the disguise be that elaborate - it's like when he disguised himself for Castrovalva or for The King's Demons (albeit with less makeup on the latter). And the long game with Bill.... Again, it reminds me of Ainley, when he pretended to be Nyssa's father Tremas in Logopolis since he stole Tremas's body, only this was on a grander scale. The only issue I really have with the story is that Missy and the Cybermen serves as the series finale twice during Capaldi's era, and each time, we take a Black character connected to the Doctor and convert them into a Cyberman that, yes, is able to subvert the conversion to some degree, but, seriously? I was so, so happy in The Haunting of Villa Diodati that the Doctor, once she realized she was dealing with a Cyberman, shut down Ryan's desire to go after it with her, because my first reaction was, "Seriously, again?!"
Yeah, I always have such mixed feelings about your second point -- on the one hand, I love that they took the main companion and converted her into a Cyberman because it subverts our expectations that the companion always basically 'safe' from that sort of thing happening to them, but on the other hand, as you said, it's again being done to another black character, which I HATE seeing and especially hate how that's handled in the next part. :( TL;DR -- I love that story took a big chance and converted the main companion into a Cyberman, but nooooo. not Bill!
2:18 Well daaang! How did I miss her saying "darling, those are genders" ??? I've re-watched this episode countless times. Thank you Vera for showing this particular clip! (I'm gonna re-watch it this weekend - need some of that good ol' Missy-ness 💜💜🌂🥰)
Yeah, I have a couple qualms with this thing too - after having seen it six times - but it's the initial viewing that's important. And, I mean, it's not as though it falls apart on rewatch, it's still incredible. You just notice more things to not like as opposed to the opposite.
My biggest issue is the implication that time is moving normally at the front of the ship, and quickly at the other end. I can only assume this slightly misleading explanation of spaghettification is to cover plot holes. Namely, the ship sent a distress call. This means - at the top of the ship - the distress call has been sounding for a few days. But at the bottom...it's been millennia. You're telling me, in all that time, only two ships arrived to help? And - with so much time - you'd think those at the bottom would have developed shuttles and rockets of their own to escape the colony ship. They've just been sitting there, for thousands of years. Their only aim to move up the ship, towards the black hole, when surely they understand that they ought to be moving _away._
I figured the Mr. Razor persona was for the Mondasians, he'd escaped Galifrey, found this refugee ship and took over, like he did on earth, like he always does, but when things went south, everything devolved into cyberpunk body-horror hell and the populace turned on him he put together and hung around the hospital, in the background until he could take over again or escape, and then the doctor shows up and sends him a companion and he thinks 'ah, what's another few years, this should get things moving at least'
I love this episode, it's great. I personally prefer The Doctor Falls but this one is still amazing. Also the stuff with John Simm gets explained next episode
A simple change that would have helped a lot with this season would be to make the Monk trilogy a two parter. Have blowing up the lab be what defeats the Monks, and find a different way to fix his blindness. That would free up the extra episode to tackle the Mondasian Cybermen and Missy at different times, and would make the Monk's story order's of magnitude better.
Yeah, I really could have done with an episode between this and The Doctor Falls. Like, we spend all this time exploring and developing this dystopian society and culture...and then leave. World Enough and Time is very much a Cyberman story. The Doctor Falls is very much a Doctor story. I feel like Missy (and Simm's Master) needed an episode of their own to breathe. What Steven did with that character in The Doctor Falls is pitch perfect, don't get me wrong. I only wish we got more.
I LIVED this episode (yes yes, lived). Realizing they were making Cybermen little by little... The experience was amazing. Rewatching it will never be as good because now I know what's gonna happen but still... The memory still makes this my favorite story
The prime minister line is an inside joke for the tennant era, but next episode they say he crashed his tardis there and toke control of the ship but in time the mondasian rebelled, so he was the prime minister of the ship and now he has to hide from them.
To your question about the science - yes, it is 100% valid, it's been experimentally verified that time passes slower for objects moving at velocities close to the speed of light (as per special relativity) or for objects in proximity of large gravitational fields (as per general relativity). The second effect is even observed in GPS satellites, where the clocks run marginally faster than on Earth, and you have to correct for that in order to make them work properly. Now for the gushing-over-the-awesomeness-of-the-episode part: This _was_ one heck of an episode, but like you said, it needed to be stretched out over two parts because _everything_ in this episode had sooooo much potential! I really wish Bill's story and the decay of the Mondasian colony could've been shown in greater detail, cause we only ever really get to see the _tiniest_ sliver of what was going on. There was just _one_ scene outside of the hospital and we never got to properly know anyone besides the Master, which is honestly a shame. I really wish we could've seen more of that society. Same with Missy's arc - that definitely deserved an episode of its own. So, yeah, this episode was totally awesome and left me really hungry for more of the same!
"Time Lords, bit flexible on the whole man/woman thing then?" "We're the most civilised civilisation in the universe! We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes!" "But you still call yourselves Time *Lords*?" - - - "Yeah, shut up." This might be one of my favourite Twelve/Bill interactions, not only does it lay out how mundane and normal it is for Time Lords to change gender during regeneration, but we also get one last instance of their typical routine of the Doctor acting all high and mighty about himself, and Bill completely undercutting his pomposity with a well-placed observation
Moffat finales as opposed to Davies finales which kept escalating the stakes (sometimes too far like in S3), would start with high stakes and then go low key and focus on the characters. A problem with this that happened in Big Bang is that the more low stakes half has to resolve the high stakes because without it we can't have the status quo, we need the universe back so the show can continue. Here we watch a civilisation collapse and next episode it doesn't have to be saved for the show to continue so we're free to focus on the characters.
Yes my favourite two parter reviewed again. John simm did so well even knowing he would be in the episode I never guessed first time it was The Master in disguise. But yh this episode made me fear the cybermen and that kind of technology so much. But yh re-watching can destroy an episode.
I’m pretty sure these are pre recorded so you would of already rewatched doctor falls by this time but why the master is here gets answered next episode where the master explains his tardis landed on the ship and broke down. It is a big coincidence the doctor landed here however I guess the master was on the ship for decades before the doctor got there
About Razor not needing to be the Master for Bill's story...I always felt they dropped the ball on that one. Because what needs to be mined, and really wasn't for more than fleeting moments, was the reaction from both about the Master's betrayal of Bill as Razor, to facilitate her being made into a Cyberman. Because it's much worse than Razor's innocently misguided motivation of doing it for Bill's own good; the Master knows better. The Master as he thinks of himself, as he's always been, shouldn't care. But he DOES. Even from the little bit we saw. Make it more pronounced and it feeds perfectly into the final showdown with Missy and why he takes that drastic of action. Love your idea of another ep with Missy though (And not just because any additional time with Missy is to be fervently hoped for). I'd take it farther and have THAT missing episode be her initial trial run, where she solves the problem at hand but is pretty ruthless about it, so the Doctor wants to try again. Then Bill's hesitation would be justified. Also, the coincidence didn't bother me. The Doctor tends to show up where he's needed. He was trolling for distress calls, and this ship was calling in distress. Canonically, the Tardis plays a huge part in this. It was strange that the Master didn't seem to have a plan or end goal. But also, he's great at setting up elaborate ploys with major issues shifting direction if it goes awry. That's why the Doctor always manages to stop him.
The Master pretended he was Bill’s friend for 10 years! All to betray her and arguably sabotage Missy’s relationship with the Doctor, who he believes would never forgive her for what she’d done to Bill (though she doesn’t remember).
@@TheBlackSaint That's the point I was making. They did the ten years betrayal thing. But never really explored how it affected Missy, the Master, and Bill once she got made into a Cyberman. A couple of moments, an odd line--that's it. Enough to bring up what places they stopped short of going.
I knew Simms was coming back, the BBC promos spoiled it before the series aired. However until about 30 seconds before the reveal he had me totally fooled.Loved him as Mr Razor and I thought Bill's Cyberman crying was effective and horrifying. We kind of lose that blue skin character. We never see him again after he shoots Bill, that was a weakness, esp since he's the only person the Cybermen wont convert. And seeing the Doctor take apart his sonic because it's also a marker and probably always has been was a hoot!
I love this episode, but I love the next episode even more. And I actually really needed the opening, because the producers (against Moffat’s wishes) spoiled all of the twists of this episode in promoting it. By adding that weird opening, I was genuinely engaged in a way that simply watching the episode from the introduction of the spaceship wouldn’t have done. Just a weird thing that helped me.
I always thought missy calling nardole comic relief was a reference to the charity show that happens every two years in the UK (i think it was every 2 years) but hey it could mean two things. Matt Lucas has been involved with the comic relief shows in the past
Yes, it could be taken as a reference to the biennial Red Nose Day telethon, but it works as a meta reference to the much older concept of a comic relief character itself.
It’s nearly 3 AM, I’m not supposed to be awake right now even though by being so I could be watching whatever new streaming releases come in at that time. But I was on my RUclips front page and on it was your “Doctor Who is Political” video. It was seemingly made back when series 10 was new. And it clicked: Take Two isn’t just for completionism, updates and corrections. It’s so you can cover the topic not only as you currently present yourself mentally (refined opinions), but physically. You were much more male-presenting then than you are now. The opinions and form you are most comfortable in.
It seems unfair to ding the first episode of a two-parter because some things that aren't explained until the 2nd episode. The Master was disguising himself from the Mondassians... MASTER: Meh. You wouldn't understand. DOCTOR: Well, let's see how I do. Your Tardis got stuck. You killed a lot of people, took over the city, lived like a king until they rebelled against your cruelty. And ever since then you've been hiding out, probably in disguise, because everybody knows your stupid round face. MASTER: Round?
Well the Master would have had time to prepare for the doctor and company coming by him seeing the tardis land on the TV and bill get taken, plus I always thought that the reason for the disguise is was that he must've gotten stuck on the Mondas ship, tried to take over, and got over thrown so now he is in hiding. Would love to see the events that led to that though Love it when the master returning is spoiled 2 seconds before I can watch the episode due to the BBC immediately posting about the twist when it aired
Great review. Nathaniel mentioned in his original review that the Master’s inclusion in this episode isn’t justified. The other story weakness I don’t agree with. Bill had sufficient reason to worry about Missy. Bill is putting her life in her hands just like she trusts the Doctor to keep her alive. Not to mention we’re talking about a woman who has been kept locked up by the Doctor for most of the series and isn’t a people person (when it comes to humans anyway)
I assumed the Master was onboard to ensure the Mondasian Cybermen get created. This fits with the John Simms Master character being an agent of chaos. I agree that there are two stories going on in this and the next episode, but it did not bother me as much. However, I did not think the next episode lived up to the promise of this one. Perhaps this is due to the two stories not quite fitting together.
I had all the same questions about the Master's purpose and disguise on watching, that were never answered, but didn't spoil the episode. But now I'll be calling the episode World Enough And Time-Flight from here on. :)
I could be pulling things out of thin air here, since it's been a year since I watched this one, but didn't Saxon!Master have access to a video feed of the upper level? Couldn't he have been aware of Bill arriving with the Doctor well before she arrived down at his level? Alternatively, we could just cite Time-Flight as evidence that the Master sometimes dons an unnecessary disguise possibly just for fun.
The only 12th Doctor story that I like. Not just because I'm a fan of the Cybermen and this is probably the only time Nu-Who has done their entire concept justice. But the tone is exactly as it should be right from the time Bill gets shot. If only Moffat didn't back-peddle on the ending to this story, next episode.
Just for reference, gravity can actually impact time. It’s called time dilation. It’s really complicated so i wouldn’t be able to explain it. Conveniently, I actually asked my physics teacher about this today and he confirmed it
Trouble is they got it the wrong way round. The "very fast bottom" Razor refers to should be a "very slow bottom", as time passes more slowly the closer you are to a black hole.
@@ftumschk - I think both are wrong actually. Time at the top of the ship is moving slowly, however time at the bottom is moving at a normal rate. Relatively, you could see this as "Fast", but really it's just normal.
@@nightowl8477 I'll use the "Alice and Bob" example beloved of some physicists... From a safe distance, Alice watches Bob approach a black hole; because Bob is in a very strong gravitational field, Alice will see time pass more slowly for Bob than it does for her. In this story, "Bob" (Razor and Bill) sees time pass more slowly for "Alice" (the Doctor, Missy and Nardole), which is the the wrong way round, unfortunately.
@@nocturne8333 I thought the bottom of the ship (where Bill and Razor are) was the end closest to the black hole... otherwise, why would it be referred to as the 'bottom' of the ship?
He did know he was going to meet the Master, he just didn't know what the "master" looked like "Hello Missy, I'm the Master, and I'm VERY WORRIED ABOUT MY FUTURE" But I do agree with your statement that it needed another middle part for Bill and Missy's arcs
He knows when he meets her, I'm talking about before the Doctor arrived and trying to parse if meeting his future self was supposed to be the plan all along. And for the record, it wasn't, as confirmed in the next episode.
I kind of agree with you about the missing episode. and I also feel they chose the wrong point in the series and the wrong connected story to be the 3 parter. Instead of the Monk trilogy the finale should have been a trilogy. Set out like how you said with part one being about Missy, part 2 being about Bill and the cybermen and stuff and then part 3 being about Missy and the Master and the conclusion and stuff.
At this point, it seems like the show has baked in the fact that there can/will be multiple origins of the Cyberman (unlike the Daleks) by making them something that will inevitably turn up sometime in human history no matter what anyone (including The Doctor) does. So, even if one incarnation of the Cybermen is pegged on one specific person, that doesn't mean every other time we have seen/will see the Cybermen, he has something to do with it. It is very Terminator-like thinking, really, since that series seems to ultimately decide (though in this case for money's sake) that Judgement Day will inevitably happen no matter what anyone goes to the past and changes. Those changes may change the day, change where the technology that causes it is from, but the event still ultimately happens anyway.
Oh, and does Missy literally not remember decades of her life? She doesn’t recognize the ship when the TARDIS lands there. I know the rules about what happens when Time Lords meet themselves but this would mean she doesn’t remember being on the ship ever or that her TARDIS had crashed there, etc.
I like the idea that there should have been another episode in this series focusing on the Doctor testing out whether Missy could turn good. But I think the comments regarding John Simm's Master are a bit harsh on the writer. Most of those questions raised do get answered early on in the next episode, The Doctor Falls. But I don't think it's reasonable for that information to have been revealed in the first part since, as the audience, we only begin to engage with the Master as his true self right at the end of the episode.
While I can't say for all your questions, your point about if the Doctor didn't know the Master was there then that's a hell of a coincidence......to be fair, that happens all the damn time, in classic AND modern Who. The end of the universe in Series 3, hell even both Master appearances in Series 12! The Doctor is almost always running into the Master by sheer coincidence with no foreknowledge of his whereabouts. Now if this feels different from those instances because of the Master's unclear purpose in this story, that's fair, just pointing out that it's not the first time they've run into each other by coincidence.
I assumed the master saw the tardis land on the monitor. He assumed that his companions would be from 21st century earth because well they usually are. Saw her being brought down so disguised himself. Also the ship had humans on before the doctor got there. So probably thought they could recognise him. It says in the next one the masters tardis got stuck there. Remember the tardis will always take the doctor where /she needs to go. Although admittedly for a time machine her timing was probably wasn't great.
The thing that I realized a few hours after watching was that time should be moving faster on the side further away from the black hole, not on the side closer to the black hole. As you approach a body of great mass, time slows down (as per general relativity). The episode got it kind of backward. Still one of the most amazing episodes Doctor Who has ever put out.
That is happening on the episode. That’s why 10 years pass at the “bottom” of the ship where Bill is, and only a few minutes pass where the Doctor and co is.
@@UgandanPrinc3 Exactly. The "bottom" of the ship is closer to the black hole. Time should be passing slower near the bottom, not faster. They got general relativity backward.
@@sparshjohri1109 I’m not sure how you’re still getting it switched up? The Tardis lands at the side closest to the event horizon. We’ll call that “normal” time for now. Where the Cybermen are is at the furthest point of the ship away from the event horizon (“cyber time”). The show states and shows multiple times that cyber time is progress faster than normal time. Which matches your statement that “time should be moving faster on the side further away from the black hole”. So what did the show get wrong? They state once they land on the bottle ship, that the ship currently is reversing away from the black hole. Hence the front/top of the ship is the side of the ship closest to the event horizon and the back/bottom of the ship is the side furthest away, if that further clarifies it for you.
I absolutely love World Enough and Time. There is however one thing that I cannot understand... Why did the original crew of the ships not come back to the top through the lifts. Why did they decide to stay at the bottom and become the first settlers? This makes no sense to me because we see the cybermen use the lift to get to the top of the ship so you can obviously use them to go up...
Really late to the party, but the master is here for the sake of not only Missy's bit the doctor and Bills story arcs (mostly the doctor's). Bill points out it is a bad idea to allow Missy as much freedom as the doctor is giving her at the start, and that she scares Bill. The ending of this episode is the worst case scenario possible, and it is because the doctor (inadvertently) left Bill in the care of a Master before he "turned good". Its to give the doctor guilt.
Isn't it possible that the reason The Master is on this spaceship is because he is just as good/bad at piloting a TARDIS as The Doctor? It was designed to be piloted by six people, so The Master is also going to struggle and end up in some strange places by mistake. The 'coincidence' of The Doctor frequently running into The Master can also be explained bt the ability of the TARDIS to take The Doctor to where he/she needs to be rather than where they want to be!
The episodes, I love the most, contain the exact opposite of what Nathaniel says here at the beginning. Like, I *HATED* The Return of Doctor Mysterio on first viewing. I was in the wrong mood. Especially after one year without any Doctor Who, I wanted something else... Today it's my #1 most favorite episode of all time...
Yeah I never really liked or understood the Mr. Razor thing. Like, looking at Bill's life as it is presented here she has spent WAY more time with Razor than with the Doctor. She should really have a bond with him by now as it seems like they get along alright and have lived together for years. It would have been interesting to examine that further but they really gloss over just how much time Bill has been waiting in the ship and living with this random guy. I think Moffat really likes the idea of "this person waited for years" but never really explores what that /means/ to the psychology of a character. Missed opportunity imo
A yes the two genders. Exposition and comic relief. Info dump bc I'm autistic, but I also make lots of jokes bc adhd, so this makes my agender heart very happy. Almost enough to convince me to watch this one again, despite the pain and anger this episode puts me through. I still think shooting bill was in poor taste. Of all the ways to kill her character of, that's the one they chose? This episode wasn't make that long ago. Pretty sure Ferguson had already happened.
The coincidence of the first time the Doctor tests Missy, he winds up encountering a previous version of her (the Master) is just too much for me to accept and I don’t think the episode does a good job explaining it. I know the TARDIS sometimes takes the Doctor to where he needs to be but the Master is hiding in obscurity. It’s not like he’s plotting some grand scheme to take over the galaxy. I wish there was a clearer plan.
There is something that bothers me here... I hate how villainous the surgeon and the nurse act. They shouldn't. It's such childish writing. I'm saying this, because if it was "mature" writing, there wouldn't be any super evil surgeons who seem to be deriving pleasure from freaking out their patients. Like the greatest, most horrifying thing about the cybermen is that they have good intentions. They were created with good intentions. It's not some evil scheme, this is just a necessary. It's survival, not malice. That should be the scary part, that these people aren't even trying to hurt Bill, they think they're helping her.
I mean hospitals are scary as it is, you need doctors and nurses just being casual business in an uncanny way to be scary and frame it in blurry. Just doing your job is more scary in a twisted hospital than being a sadist. I mean its valid that the surgent lost it a long time ago, but still casual uncanny is more scary.
Do you have any issue with the line _"Every star! We were going to see them all. But he was too busy burning them...I don't think she ever saw anything."_ Cos I've seen it get flagged up as deadnaming...which is a valid criticism. I just love it, it says everything about where that character's at right now. She isn't burning stars anymore, but the air's still too murky to see clearly where she's at.
It is explained in a line of dialogue from The Doctor Falls that the Master is in disguise because he was the one who ran the society of Mondasians into the dirt. The Doctor deduces that he crashed his TARDIS on the ship, set himself up as ruler of the society, destroyed everything and then was overthrown by the people, which is why he has to survive by pretending to be a little hospital goblin.
And the fact Moffat is seemingly making fun of Simm's Master writing all this BUT IS ALSO BEING ACCURATE is so fun, he would totally do that, that would totally happen, gobling hospital is what you getting 😂
Bill spends around 10 years on the ship despite it only being a minute or two from The Doctor’s perspective, so The Master presumably saw The TARDIS on the video feed of the bridge decades before she arrived at the bottom of the ship, and in that time, he presumably guessed correctly that The Doctor’s companion would be from 21st century Earth and would remember him being the British prime minister.
I feel Moffat knew how to write Cybermen (for the most part) in the same vein as how RTD knew how to write the Daleks (for the most part). Yet RTD didn't know how to write The Cybermen and Moffat didn't know how to write the Daleks.
Exactly! Thank you for mentioning it.
You hit the nail on the head. Though both Moffat and RTD knew how to write Davros IMO
@@SomeRandomGuy908 and the Master
@@JP-yf2fk Pretty much except for End of Time Part 1 and Death in Heaven
Episodes like these are always my go-to examples to justify series 10 being massively underrated
It is such a great series one of the shows most solid runs
The whole bit about the good tea and the bad tea is one of my favourite Who moments.
"Good attitude, will help with the horror to come" "What horror?" "Mainly the tea".
Also, I've always enjoyed the bit where the Master says he loves disguises. Reminded me of Delgado and Ainlee spending half their time pretending to be someone else.
The makeup for John Simm as Mr. Razor is really good, and I actually didn't know he was coming back for Season 10, so I was genuinely surprised by this twist.
I *did* know that Simm appears in this series, and still didn't recognize him.
I knew Simm would appear because of the trailers but I had totally forgotten about it until Mr Razor revealed he was the Master so that still surprised me
I don't know, I always thought that the Master's presence in Bill's story was very important, especially because the Master loves to mess with the Doctor's companions (which in turn messes with the Doctor by proxy). He's basically trolling Bill the whole time and I think that's an important part of the story, myself. If it was just a random guy, I really don't think it would have as much of an emotional gut-punch to it once he's revealed to be the Master. The Master was playing a long game with the Doctor through Bill and it was brutal af.
And his messing is strengthened even further when you find out that that the Master basically helped Bill restore her hope only to take it away and convert her to a Cyberman...
I also always felt that Bill’s storyline and the two contrasting Masters complemented each other in terms of a theme of ‘identity change’. Bill experiences the horrific prospect of ‘degenerating’ (so to speak) into an entity much lesser than her normal self which will eventually erase her feelings and individuality, whilst the Master has to confront him/her selves and the differentness of both ‘regenerations’, Missy being potentially the more morally mature, but eventually scuppered in her tracks (admittedly in the next episode) by her past.
Also, in terms of explaining how Simm’s Master knew when and where to be in order to carry out his plan with Bill, we maybe make the (understandable) mistake of assuming Missy’s Master is chronologically after Simm’s. It could be another of Moffatt’s paradoxes whereby Simm-Master knows to be when/where he needs to because Missy was chronologically before him and therefore already experienced this. Of course, that brings up a number of other problems, not least of which is how Missy survives being ‘killed’ in TDF in order to regenerate into whomever she did prior to Jacobi/Simms. But then, it’s sci-fi fantasy - it’s not like show can’t just pluck an imaginative explanation out of thin air for that :-D
@@iancossey105 I thought this episode and TDF made it fairly clear that Missy was after Jacobi/Simms. The Master's reveal has him spouting the line "I'm very worried about my future" meaning he is worried about what Missy is becoming. The Doctor Falls expands on that by showing that the Master is dead against ever helping the Doctor or even the idea that a future regeneration might do that.
@@dansharp2860 Also, despite Missy first claiming she didn’t remember being there before, she clearly did. And that is pointed out in more than one exchange between her and The Master in the next episode. As she does remember being there before, she already knew she would be shot in the back so presumably had already figured out a way to prevent her “death”. Far less complicated story telling-wise than Missy being a version of The Master that came before Simm.
Mickey knew his role.
"Oh my god...I'm the tin dog!"
Yes the Master was spoiled. Yes the Mondasian Cybermen were announced (Which I never thought of as a spoiler if I'm honest, just some great marketing as Capaldi had been vocal about loving them). However, even knowing Simm was returning I spent the entire episode wondering when he was going to turn up, even while watching Razor. I only realised when he began to talk to Missy and I was like Ohhhhhhhh! I do rlly like this finale, and this series as a whole needs way more love, but I always forget how much of a Doctor-Lite episode this first part it. But the atmosphere and tension is done perfectly. Capaldi and Gomez are on point, but Mackie sells the whole thing!
:)
To my memory pretty much all the questions got answered at the start of the next episode. Given that Simm was just revealed at the END of this story that seems perfectly reasonable.
I will defend the fact that the Master and the Cybermen have to share a story when they could have been separate because the story is dealing with a lot of preservation Vs evolution themes. Missy wants to change, Simm doesn't, Mondasions want to change into cybermen, Bill didn't want to change, the Doctor doesn't want to change. There's a lot of metacommentry here, the show has to ask itself all the time: How much do we need to change Vs How do we keep being the show we are.
I believe the Doctor mentions in the next episode that the Master basically landed with a damaged Tardis on the ship, sort of took control before the people revolted therefore forcing him into a new identity Mr Razor (while he presumably planned an escape using the cyber men).
Then Bill came and it became or important to keep you the false identity as she would recognise him. The former prime minister line was a nod to Bill and the audience - but also the entire colony on the ship. He was the leader at one point.
Unless I am remembering The Doctor Falls conversation wrong?
FYI the black hole slowing down time is pretty accurate. I have a very big physics friend who doesn’t like Satan pit/impossible planet because of how broken the physics are around the black hole in that story. Yeah physics can be fun/terrifying/really weird
This was my favourite episode of series 10... it had a proper classic who mystery and body horror vibe going on and I had almost forgotten about John Simm being confirmed for S10 until his genuinely surprising reveal!
I could have sworn there was a line where The Master says he's in the disguise because he used to rule the Mondasians and they overthrew him at some point. Maybe that's in the next episode though
I thought the reason was because bill would recognise him as the former PM
@@alextherichardson @All Students - Both explanations are applicable.
It's quite early in the next episode :D
I'm sorry Mr. Niel Gaimen, but this is the story that made the Cybermen scary
6:06 genius. Pain isn't an emotion; it's external as opposed to internal. And your brain prioritises external threat; pain cancers out emotion, therefore. This is why people self-harm.
To have these Cybermen be living in constant pain just says so much about their existence.
Can't stop laughing at "Mr. Razor" I forgot that was his name
This is EASILY the best Cybermen story of the revival, it’s not even close. I think this is the only story that fully understands them as antagonists and it’s conclusion to Missy’s arc was a true Greek tragedy. The Sci-Fi elements are great, it’s directed brilliantly and the acting is top notch. I prefer The Doctor Falls to World Enough and Time but they’re both fantastic. If I had to rank the finales this would be my choice:
1. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
2. World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls
3. Heaven Sent/Hell Bent
4. The Name of the Doctor
5. Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways
6. The Wedding of River Song
7. Dark Water/Death in Heaven
8. Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
9. Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords
10. The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End
11. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos
12. Ascension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children
While I haven't watched the entire episode recently, I HAVE watched the final scene DOZENS of times! I just LOVE the reveal of the Master and of how Bill is a Cyberman know. Add the reaction from the Doctor to the Master coming into the room, and it's a perfect cliffhanger for me, second only to the cliffhanger in Army of Ghosts. Both are AMAZING to watch over and over again :)
So this episode is a masterpiece i mean that.This isa perfect example of pg 13 horror.Amazing internam mechanic the best use of time dilation ive ever seen in fiction.The cybermen are done here better than anywhere else except maybe spare parts.This is THE BEST CYBERMAN STORY as a complete package.
Epic intro and some heart twisting moments
Now its comparision to Spare parts
Doctor:-12 wins this easily .His 10 minutes of screentime beats 5 in this story.
Companion:- As great as nyssa is Bill wins this one cause this is her story.
Side characters:-I love missy,nardole,razor,etc but this one goes to spare parts and it isnt close.
World building :-Very very very close but i gotta give to spare parts just because we see more of the world.
Atmosphere:- WEAT wins this because the 1st 2 parts are weak in comparision to parts 3,4 and WEAT
Amazing moments:-Spare parts has The convo between the daughter and her family,the doctor being converted and the ending.WEAT has many more, so it wins this one
Sci fi concepts:-Id give this to Spare parts if we only include this episode,but if the idea of cybermen evolving at the bottom of the ship from the doctor falls WEAT will win this one.
So i prefer WEAT mainly beacause i care more about bill than Yvonne and it is much more condensed whereas spare parts drags in the begining.
I feel Spare parts should be recreated as a 1hr 40 min story in the show. This would make it a great viewing experiance imo.
9.5/10 and the 2nd part is even better ,but qbout that next week
Sadly the time dialation effect from the black hole is backwards. The back of the ship would think the front of the ship was moving at super speed, and the front would see the back almost stopped
Correct. They got it the wrong way round.
This two-part finale is not just the best Cybermen story of Modern Who, but one of the best Cybermen stories ever. These two episodes offer the perfect examination into what makes the Cybermen a true threat; 'World Enough and Time' shows us the grotesque body horror, while 'The Doctor Falls' shows us how truly relentless and never-ending they are. Bringing back the original 1966 Mondasian versions was a stroke of genius by Steven Moffat, taking what can be considered a ridiculous old design and making it sting, and that design is probably now my favourite Cyberman design alongside the 80's versions. Also, bringing back John Simm's Master and pairing him with Michelle Gomez's Missy was a great bonus. This was a great start to Capaldi's final adventure.
I somehow missed the "next time on Doctor Who" thing at the end of the first episode so the John Simm reveal was awesome.
When I first saw this. I forgot the Master was going to be in this season and I didn’t see through his disguise. The reveal got me good at the time.
Throwback to the time that I used my Masters in Mathematics to calculate the actual time dilation that space ship would have been under - long story short, yes the science behind it is there, and time dilation would occur, but they didn't quite get it right, particularly in The Doctor Falls (the time dilation between the level the cybermen were on and the level that the Doctor et al were on would be negligible, so the rapid advancement of the Cybermen is unlikely.) You're welcome.
Pearl Mackie has been amazing this whole series as Bill, but these last two episodes were phenomenal for her in particular. I remember when I first saw this that I knew the Master was supposed to be in the series, but at no point during the episode did I think Mr. Razor was him in disguise - not until he started talking to Missy. That was when my brain went, wait, wait.... It's such a lovely throwback to Anthony Ainley's Master to have the disguise be that elaborate - it's like when he disguised himself for Castrovalva or for The King's Demons (albeit with less makeup on the latter). And the long game with Bill.... Again, it reminds me of Ainley, when he pretended to be Nyssa's father Tremas in Logopolis since he stole Tremas's body, only this was on a grander scale.
The only issue I really have with the story is that Missy and the Cybermen serves as the series finale twice during Capaldi's era, and each time, we take a Black character connected to the Doctor and convert them into a Cyberman that, yes, is able to subvert the conversion to some degree, but, seriously? I was so, so happy in The Haunting of Villa Diodati that the Doctor, once she realized she was dealing with a Cyberman, shut down Ryan's desire to go after it with her, because my first reaction was, "Seriously, again?!"
Yeah, I always have such mixed feelings about your second point -- on the one hand, I love that they took the main companion and converted her into a Cyberman because it subverts our expectations that the companion always basically 'safe' from that sort of thing happening to them, but on the other hand, as you said, it's again being done to another black character, which I HATE seeing and especially hate how that's handled in the next part. :(
TL;DR -- I love that story took a big chance and converted the main companion into a Cyberman, but nooooo. not Bill!
2:18 Well daaang! How did I miss her saying "darling, those are genders" ??? I've re-watched this episode countless times.
Thank you Vera for showing this particular clip! (I'm gonna re-watch it this weekend - need some of that good ol' Missy-ness 💜💜🌂🥰)
Yeah, I have a couple qualms with this thing too - after having seen it six times - but it's the initial viewing that's important.
And, I mean, it's not as though it falls apart on rewatch, it's still incredible. You just notice more things to not like as opposed to the opposite.
My biggest issue is the implication that time is moving normally at the front of the ship, and quickly at the other end. I can only assume this slightly misleading explanation of spaghettification is to cover plot holes.
Namely, the ship sent a distress call. This means - at the top of the ship - the distress call has been sounding for a few days. But at the bottom...it's been millennia. You're telling me, in all that time, only two ships arrived to help? And - with so much time - you'd think those at the bottom would have developed shuttles and rockets of their own to escape the colony ship. They've just been sitting there, for thousands of years. Their only aim to move up the ship, towards the black hole, when surely they understand that they ought to be moving _away._
I figured the Mr. Razor persona was for the Mondasians, he'd escaped Galifrey, found this refugee ship and took over, like he did on earth, like he always does, but when things went south, everything devolved into cyberpunk body-horror hell and the populace turned on him he put together and hung around the hospital, in the background until he could take over again or escape, and then the doctor shows up and sends him a companion and he thinks 'ah, what's another few years, this should get things moving at least'
I love this episode, it's great. I personally prefer The Doctor Falls but this one is still amazing. Also the stuff with John Simm gets explained next episode
Im fairly certain master showing up is explained next episode
A simple change that would have helped a lot with this season would be to make the Monk trilogy a two parter. Have blowing up the lab be what defeats the Monks, and find a different way to fix his blindness. That would free up the extra episode to tackle the Mondasian Cybermen and Missy at different times, and would make the Monk's story order's of magnitude better.
I mean the Master has sort of always just showed up out of nowhere, imo that's what makes them fun
Jo Grant and Three basically lampshading it in season 8/9, love that :D .
Then again that was partly because the Timelords were controlling the Doctor's TARDIS a lot of the time. Still...
Yeah, I really could have done with an episode between this and The Doctor Falls.
Like, we spend all this time exploring and developing this dystopian society and culture...and then leave. World Enough and Time is very much a Cyberman story. The Doctor Falls is very much a Doctor story. I feel like Missy (and Simm's Master) needed an episode of their own to breathe. What Steven did with that character in The Doctor Falls is pitch perfect, don't get me wrong. I only wish we got more.
Most of your questions are answered in the next episode
I LIVED this episode (yes yes, lived). Realizing they were making Cybermen little by little... The experience was amazing.
Rewatching it will never be as good because now I know what's gonna happen but still... The memory still makes this my favorite story
WOW I wish I had been like you and didn't know they were already gonna be Cybermen bc trailers/promos...
Still amazing tho
@@WiloPolis03 that's exactly why I've been running away from the bbc's trailers for years
They took the habit of ruining the mysteries :/
The TARDIS (a.k.a. "Sexy") often takes The Doctor where he *needs* to go, usually without him knowing beforehand.
The prime minister line is an inside joke for the tennant era, but next episode they say he crashed his tardis there and toke control of the ship but in time the mondasian rebelled, so he was the prime minister of the ship and now he has to hide from them.
The time difference in the ship wasn't an original idea, Red Dwarf did it decades ago.
Physics had the idea millennias ago
To your question about the science - yes, it is 100% valid, it's been experimentally verified that time passes slower for objects moving at velocities close to the speed of light (as per special relativity) or for objects in proximity of large gravitational fields (as per general relativity). The second effect is even observed in GPS satellites, where the clocks run marginally faster than on Earth, and you have to correct for that in order to make them work properly.
Now for the gushing-over-the-awesomeness-of-the-episode part:
This _was_ one heck of an episode, but like you said, it needed to be stretched out over two parts because _everything_ in this episode had sooooo much potential! I really wish Bill's story and the decay of the Mondasian colony could've been shown in greater detail, cause we only ever really get to see the _tiniest_ sliver of what was going on. There was just _one_ scene outside of the hospital and we never got to properly know anyone besides the Master, which is honestly a shame. I really wish we could've seen more of that society. Same with Missy's arc - that definitely deserved an episode of its own. So, yeah, this episode was totally awesome and left me really hungry for more of the same!
"Time Lords, bit flexible on the whole man/woman thing then?"
"We're the most civilised civilisation in the universe! We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes!"
"But you still call yourselves Time *Lords*?"
-
-
-
"Yeah, shut up."
This might be one of my favourite Twelve/Bill interactions, not only does it lay out how mundane and normal it is for Time Lords to change gender during regeneration, but we also get one last instance of their typical routine of the Doctor acting all high and mighty about himself, and Bill completely undercutting his pomposity with a well-placed observation
I love almost everything about this episode. Im a bit biased since the master twist wasn’t ruined for me but still. Pearl mackie’s acting is 10/10.
Moffat finales as opposed to Davies finales which kept escalating the stakes (sometimes too far like in S3), would start with high stakes and then go low key and focus on the characters. A problem with this that happened in Big Bang is that the more low stakes half has to resolve the high stakes because without it we can't have the status quo, we need the universe back so the show can continue. Here we watch a civilisation collapse and next episode it doesn't have to be saved for the show to continue so we're free to focus on the characters.
The Master disguised himself because he had been overthrown in response to his cruelty on the ship.
Yes my favourite two parter reviewed again. John simm did so well even knowing he would be in the episode I never guessed first time it was The Master in disguise. But yh this episode made me fear the cybermen and that kind of technology so much.
But yh re-watching can destroy an episode.
I’m pretty sure these are pre recorded so you would of already rewatched doctor falls by this time but why the master is here gets answered next episode where the master explains his tardis landed on the ship and broke down. It is a big coincidence the doctor landed here however I guess the master was on the ship for decades before the doctor got there
About Razor not needing to be the Master for Bill's story...I always felt they dropped the ball on that one. Because what needs to be mined, and really wasn't for more than fleeting moments, was the reaction from both about the Master's betrayal of Bill as Razor, to facilitate her being made into a Cyberman. Because it's much worse than Razor's innocently misguided motivation of doing it for Bill's own good; the Master knows better. The Master as he thinks of himself, as he's always been, shouldn't care. But he DOES. Even from the little bit we saw. Make it more pronounced and it feeds perfectly into the final showdown with Missy and why he takes that drastic of action.
Love your idea of another ep with Missy though (And not just because any additional time with Missy is to be fervently hoped for). I'd take it farther and have THAT missing episode be her initial trial run, where she solves the problem at hand but is pretty ruthless about it, so the Doctor wants to try again. Then Bill's hesitation would be justified.
Also, the coincidence didn't bother me. The Doctor tends to show up where he's needed. He was trolling for distress calls, and this ship was calling in distress. Canonically, the Tardis plays a huge part in this. It was strange that the Master didn't seem to have a plan or end goal. But also, he's great at setting up elaborate ploys with major issues shifting direction if it goes awry. That's why the Doctor always manages to stop him.
The Master pretended he was Bill’s friend for 10 years! All to betray her and arguably sabotage Missy’s relationship with the Doctor, who he believes would never forgive her for what she’d done to Bill (though she doesn’t remember).
@@TheBlackSaint That's the point I was making. They did the ten years betrayal thing. But never really explored how it affected Missy, the Master, and Bill once she got made into a Cyberman. A couple of moments, an odd line--that's it. Enough to bring up what places they stopped short of going.
Jamie and Zoe/Victoria also fit the Comic Relif and Exposition genders!
I think I've finally found my gender identity: Exposition.
I'm always overexplaining myself. I babble. I'm a babbler.
I knew Simms was coming back, the BBC promos spoiled it before the series aired. However until about 30 seconds before the reveal he had me totally fooled.Loved him as Mr Razor and I thought Bill's Cyberman crying was effective and horrifying. We kind of lose that blue skin character. We never see him again after he shoots Bill, that was a weakness, esp since he's the only person the Cybermen wont convert. And seeing the Doctor take apart his sonic because it's also a marker and probably always has been was a hoot!
I love this episode, but I love the next episode even more. And I actually really needed the opening, because the producers (against Moffat’s wishes) spoiled all of the twists of this episode in promoting it. By adding that weird opening, I was genuinely engaged in a way that simply watching the episode from the introduction of the spaceship wouldn’t have done. Just a weird thing that helped me.
I always thought missy calling nardole comic relief was a reference to the charity show that happens every two years in the UK (i think it was every 2 years) but hey it could mean two things.
Matt Lucas has been involved with the comic relief shows in the past
Yes, it could be taken as a reference to the biennial Red Nose Day telethon, but it works as a meta reference to the much older concept of a comic relief character itself.
Breaking Band’s first episode was good for the ‘cold open is a flash forward’ thing.
It’s nearly 3 AM, I’m not supposed to be awake right now even though by being so I could be watching whatever new streaming releases come in at that time. But I was on my RUclips front page and on it was your “Doctor Who is Political” video. It was seemingly made back when series 10 was new. And it clicked: Take Two isn’t just for completionism, updates and corrections. It’s so you can cover the topic not only as you currently present yourself mentally (refined opinions), but physically. You were much more male-presenting then than you are now. The opinions and form you are most comfortable in.
He's there because his TARDIS crashed.
A lot of the time the master and the doctor run into each other it's a coincidence
It seems unfair to ding the first episode of a two-parter because some things that aren't explained until the 2nd episode. The Master was disguising himself from the Mondassians...
MASTER: Meh. You wouldn't understand.
DOCTOR: Well, let's see how I do. Your Tardis got stuck. You killed a lot of people, took over the city, lived like a king until they rebelled against your cruelty. And ever since then you've been hiding out, probably in disguise, because everybody knows your stupid round face.
MASTER: Round?
The explanation of General Relativity was one of the better ones in popular television.
6:24 so what you're saying is, it may not have stopped you noticing issues in the first watch, but it did stop you from caring about them...
10:40 haha.. the "a-bill-ity"
Well the Master would have had time to prepare for the doctor and company coming by him seeing the tardis land on the TV and bill get taken, plus I always thought that the reason for the disguise is was that he must've gotten stuck on the Mondas ship, tried to take over, and got over thrown so now he is in hiding. Would love to see the events that led to that though
Love it when the master returning is spoiled 2 seconds before I can watch the episode due to the BBC immediately posting about the twist when it aired
Great review. Nathaniel mentioned in his original review that the Master’s inclusion in this episode isn’t justified. The other story weakness I don’t agree with. Bill had sufficient reason to worry about Missy. Bill is putting her life in her hands just like she trusts the Doctor to keep her alive. Not to mention we’re talking about a woman who has been kept locked up by the Doctor for most of the series and isn’t a people person (when it comes to humans anyway)
I assumed the Master was onboard to ensure the Mondasian Cybermen get created. This fits with the John Simms Master character being an agent of chaos. I agree that there are two stories going on in this and the next episode, but it did not bother me as much. However, I did not think the next episode lived up to the promise of this one. Perhaps this is due to the two stories not quite fitting together.
I had all the same questions about the Master's purpose and disguise on watching, that were never answered, but didn't spoil the episode. But now I'll be calling the episode World Enough And Time-Flight from here on. :)
I could be pulling things out of thin air here, since it's been a year since I watched this one, but didn't Saxon!Master have access to a video feed of the upper level? Couldn't he have been aware of Bill arriving with the Doctor well before she arrived down at his level?
Alternatively, we could just cite Time-Flight as evidence that the Master sometimes dons an unnecessary disguise possibly just for fun.
The only 12th Doctor story that I like. Not just because I'm a fan of the Cybermen and this is probably the only time Nu-Who has done their entire concept justice. But the tone is exactly as it should be right from the time Bill gets shot. If only Moffat didn't back-peddle on the ending to this story, next episode.
gravity can infact slow down the progession of time relative to another body due to its ability warp spacetime and create pockets of relativity
Just for reference, gravity can actually impact time. It’s called time dilation. It’s really complicated so i wouldn’t be able to explain it. Conveniently, I actually asked my physics teacher about this today and he confirmed it
Trouble is they got it the wrong way round. The "very fast bottom" Razor refers to should be a "very slow bottom", as time passes more slowly the closer you are to a black hole.
@@ftumschk - I think both are wrong actually. Time at the top of the ship is moving slowly, however time at the bottom is moving at a normal rate. Relatively, you could see this as "Fast", but really it's just normal.
@@nightowl8477 I'll use the "Alice and Bob" example beloved of some physicists...
From a safe distance, Alice watches Bob approach a black hole; because Bob is in a very strong gravitational field, Alice will see time pass more slowly for Bob than it does for her.
In this story, "Bob" (Razor and Bill) sees time pass more slowly for "Alice" (the Doctor, Missy and Nardole), which is the the wrong way round, unfortunately.
@@ftumschk this might be me being really stupid, but wouldn’t Bill and Razor be “Alice” as the Doctor and co. are 400 miles closer to the black hole?
@@nocturne8333 I thought the bottom of the ship (where Bill and Razor are) was the end closest to the black hole... otherwise, why would it be referred to as the 'bottom' of the ship?
He did know he was going to meet the Master, he just didn't know what the "master" looked like "Hello Missy, I'm the Master, and I'm VERY WORRIED ABOUT MY FUTURE"
But I do agree with your statement that it needed another middle part for Bill and Missy's arcs
He knows when he meets her, I'm talking about before the Doctor arrived and trying to parse if meeting his future self was supposed to be the plan all along. And for the record, it wasn't, as confirmed in the next episode.
@@CouncilofGeeks Oh! I think I misinterpreted what you said, sorry about that.
I hope the next episode lived up to your expectations
I kind of agree with you about the missing episode. and I also feel they chose the wrong point in the series and the wrong connected story to be the 3 parter. Instead of the Monk trilogy the finale should have been a trilogy. Set out like how you said with part one being about Missy, part 2 being about Bill and the cybermen and stuff and then part 3 being about Missy and the Master and the conclusion and stuff.
At this point, it seems like the show has baked in the fact that there can/will be multiple origins of the Cyberman (unlike the Daleks) by making them something that will inevitably turn up sometime in human history no matter what anyone (including The Doctor) does. So, even if one incarnation of the Cybermen is pegged on one specific person, that doesn't mean every other time we have seen/will see the Cybermen, he has something to do with it. It is very Terminator-like thinking, really, since that series seems to ultimately decide (though in this case for money's sake) that Judgement Day will inevitably happen no matter what anyone goes to the past and changes. Those changes may change the day, change where the technology that causes it is from, but the event still ultimately happens anyway.
Oh, and does Missy literally not remember decades of her life? She doesn’t recognize the ship when the TARDIS lands there. I know the rules about what happens when Time Lords meet themselves but this would mean she doesn’t remember being on the ship ever or that her TARDIS had crashed there, etc.
I like the idea that there should have been another episode in this series focusing on the Doctor testing out whether Missy could turn good. But I think the comments regarding John Simm's Master are a bit harsh on the writer. Most of those questions raised do get answered early on in the next episode, The Doctor Falls. But I don't think it's reasonable for that information to have been revealed in the first part since, as the audience, we only begin to engage with the Master as his true self right at the end of the episode.
While I can't say for all your questions, your point about if the Doctor didn't know the Master was there then that's a hell of a coincidence......to be fair, that happens all the damn time, in classic AND modern Who. The end of the universe in Series 3, hell even both Master appearances in Series 12! The Doctor is almost always running into the Master by sheer coincidence with no foreknowledge of his whereabouts. Now if this feels different from those instances because of the Master's unclear purpose in this story, that's fair, just pointing out that it's not the first time they've run into each other by coincidence.
I assumed the master saw the tardis land on the monitor. He assumed that his companions would be from 21st century earth because well they usually are. Saw her being brought down so disguised himself. Also the ship had humans on before the doctor got there. So probably thought they could recognise him.
It says in the next one the masters tardis got stuck there. Remember the tardis will always take the doctor where /she needs to go. Although admittedly for a time machine her timing was probably wasn't great.
The thing that I realized a few hours after watching was that time should be moving faster on the side further away from the black hole, not on the side closer to the black hole. As you approach a body of great mass, time slows down (as per general relativity). The episode got it kind of backward.
Still one of the most amazing episodes Doctor Who has ever put out.
That is happening on the episode. That’s why 10 years pass at the “bottom” of the ship where Bill is, and only a few minutes pass where the Doctor and co is.
@@UgandanPrinc3 Exactly. The "bottom" of the ship is closer to the black hole. Time should be passing slower near the bottom, not faster. They got general relativity backward.
@@sparshjohri1109 I’m not sure how you’re still getting it switched up?
The Tardis lands at the side closest to the event horizon. We’ll call that “normal” time for now.
Where the Cybermen are is at the furthest point of the ship away from the event horizon (“cyber time”).
The show states and shows multiple times that cyber time is progress faster than normal time. Which matches your statement that “time should be moving faster on the side further away from the black hole”. So what did the show get wrong?
They state once they land on the bottle ship, that the ship currently is reversing away from the black hole. Hence the front/top of the ship is the side of the ship closest to the event horizon and the back/bottom of the ship is the side furthest away, if that further clarifies it for you.
The Mr. Razor character made me think of Zathras from Babylon Five.
Great episode!
Great impression!
Like, I'm impressed.....
Bill and Nardole are great. I wish 12 had spent more time with them, sort of like Amy/Rory/Doctor.
I totally forgot the snowy regeneration cold open, yeah that was pointless
I absolutely love World Enough and Time. There is however one thing that I cannot understand...
Why did the original crew of the ships not come back to the top through the lifts. Why did they decide to stay at the bottom and become the first settlers? This makes no sense to me because we see the cybermen use the lift to get to the top of the ship so you can obviously use them to go up...
the time distortion effect is exagerated, but scientificly accurate.
Loving your Capaldi outfit
Really late to the party, but the master is here for the sake of not only Missy's bit the doctor and Bills story arcs (mostly the doctor's). Bill points out it is a bad idea to allow Missy as much freedom as the doctor is giving her at the start, and that she scares Bill. The ending of this episode is the worst case scenario possible, and it is because the doctor (inadvertently) left Bill in the care of a Master before he "turned good". Its to give the doctor guilt.
16:16 RUclips's still busted 🤨🙄...
Mr. Razer sounds alot like Peter Jerasik who played Lindo Mollari on Babylon 5.
This two parter finale and Oxygen (and to some degree Extremis) are actually the only episodes out of series 10 that I really like.
Isn't it possible that the reason The Master is on this spaceship is because he is just as good/bad at piloting a TARDIS as The Doctor? It was designed to be piloted by six people, so The Master is also going to struggle and end up in some strange places by mistake.
The 'coincidence' of The Doctor frequently running into The Master can also be explained bt the ability of the TARDIS to take The Doctor to where he/she needs to be rather than where they want to be!
i had no idea that was John Simm as that dude. great twist!!
100% one of my fave episodes
Also i must disagree on thing.
WEAT doenst borrow much at all from spare parts
The episodes, I love the most, contain the exact opposite of what Nathaniel says here at the beginning. Like, I *HATED* The Return of Doctor Mysterio on first viewing. I was in the wrong mood. Especially after one year without any Doctor Who, I wanted something else...
Today it's my #1 most favorite episode of all time...
Yeah I never really liked or understood the Mr. Razor thing. Like, looking at Bill's life as it is presented here she has spent WAY more time with Razor than with the Doctor. She should really have a bond with him by now as it seems like they get along alright and have lived together for years. It would have been interesting to examine that further but they really gloss over just how much time Bill has been waiting in the ship and living with this random guy. I think Moffat really likes the idea of "this person waited for years" but never really explores what that /means/ to the psychology of a character. Missed opportunity imo
Yessss. It's an awesome idea which he never seems to fully appreciate the ramifications of.
I didn’t see the spoilers, John Simm genuinely fooled me as Razar
A yes the two genders. Exposition and comic relief. Info dump bc I'm autistic, but I also make lots of jokes bc adhd, so this makes my agender heart very happy. Almost enough to convince me to watch this one again, despite the pain and anger this episode puts me through.
I still think shooting bill was in poor taste. Of all the ways to kill her character of, that's the one they chose? This episode wasn't make that long ago. Pretty sure Ferguson had already happened.
i hadn't rewatched since properly realising i was genderfluid and the 'darling those are genders' line is so much funnier to me now
The coincidence of the first time the Doctor tests Missy, he winds up encountering a previous version of her (the Master) is just too much for me to accept and I don’t think the episode does a good job explaining it. I know the TARDIS sometimes takes the Doctor to where he needs to be but the Master is hiding in obscurity. It’s not like he’s plotting some grand scheme to take over the galaxy. I wish there was a clearer plan.
There is something that bothers me here... I hate how villainous the surgeon and the nurse act. They shouldn't. It's such childish writing. I'm saying this, because if it was "mature" writing, there wouldn't be any super evil surgeons who seem to be deriving pleasure from freaking out their patients.
Like the greatest, most horrifying thing about the cybermen is that they have good intentions. They were created with good intentions. It's not some evil scheme, this is just a necessary. It's survival, not malice. That should be the scary part, that these people aren't even trying to hurt Bill, they think they're helping her.
I mean hospitals are scary as it is, you need doctors and nurses just being casual business in an uncanny way to be scary and frame it in blurry. Just doing your job is more scary in a twisted hospital than being a sadist. I mean its valid that the surgent lost it a long time ago, but still casual uncanny is more scary.
@@marocat4749 I agree.
I love this story so much
But man, it really annoyed me when the Doctor was just standing there explaining things instead of going to save her.
My absolute favourite
Do you have any issue with the line _"Every star! We were going to see them all. But he was too busy burning them...I don't think she ever saw anything."_
Cos I've seen it get flagged up as deadnaming...which is a valid criticism. I just love it, it says everything about where that character's at right now. She isn't burning stars anymore, but the air's still too murky to see clearly where she's at.
Deadnaming? As in he referred to her old pronouns?