Merphy, since you asked. Why not Tavore's POV? I'm afraid it will take until Book Ten for that to make sense. I closed the door on her. This is all building up to one line. In the meantime, hold onto your questions about Tavore. Rail at her, scream at her, hate her, doubt her, dismiss her, despise her. You're meant to. Thanks for your comments on the Malazan novels. As for the confusion you felt at times ... mea culpa. There are things set up here that don't resolve until much later. It's been a delight listening to your reactions and I do hope you enjoy reading the rest of the series. Cheers!
How is this comment flying under the radar??? LOL. Thank you Steve for your constant engagement with the community, it truly improves my experience with the books and helps me enjoy consuming content AROUND the books even more. Merphy Merphy look!!! It's Steve!!!
Best part from the book: "Monok Ochem paused, then cocked its head. ‘Trull Sengar, you have not begun your tale, yet already you weep.’ The Tiste Edur studied the bonecaster for a long moment, as the tears ran down his gaunt cheeks. ‘I weep, Monok Ochem, because he cannot.’" Trull weeping for Onrack because Onrack cannot cry - is one of the best things I have read from Erickson and one of the most heart touching and compassionate things ever.
It directly reminded me of the scene in Conan the Barbarian, when Conan burns the corpse of his lover Valeria and we see his friend Subotai crying, and the old sorcerer asks him why is he weeping, and he answers in a similar fashion "I cry because he is Conan. He is a Cimmerian, He won't cry, so I cry for him" or something like that. Very touching scene too.
Tavore probably see's herself as indirectly killing Felisin through her actions but if she ever finds out that it was in fact her hand that delivered the killing blow...wow.
The Scorpion sub-plot/sequence is one of my favourite ‘wee’ bits of Malazan. It’s funny and dark and character-driven and thematic and so much of what Malazan has to offer packed into something that could have easily been on the cutting room floor
@@frostburnwoof i finished the book yesterday,n i LoLed when stormy shouted CHEAT!!!!!!!!!! N that part where the other corporals swearing that they see nothing wrong with the scorpion but they know that something is wrong.
Strings is awesome! I cant pick a favorite between Karsa, Tehol, Bugg, Paws, Quick Ben, the crazy lucky alcoholic chic with the spider phobia who's name eludes me, Bottle, Ganoes, Hedge, Cutter...jesus I could keep this list going for way too long now that i think about it...Karsa, Tehol and Bugg!
As a Malazan superfan I love the exposure that Merphy brings to the series. Being her wonderful successful self puts it in front of people that wouldn't ever know it, keep up the good work
I completely agree w/ you on his very taxing writing style... Satisfying but I always feel like I'm not quite clear on the where this is going or WtF just happened!😅 I find after reading each volume that I've already 'read' it twice😊
Things you said you don’t understand: (1) the dragon: keep reading! (2) the sea filling in the desert - from what I recall, the whirlwind goddess actually perpetuated the desert with her anger. When she dissipated, the waters came back. (3) Heboric: keep reading! You’re doing fine. Malazan is my favorite thing ever - I’ve read it three times through in ten years. These reviews bring a bit a semi-nostalgic joy to me. I understand you need to take breaks, but I’m looking forward to the next one!
To be fair, when I read this book the dragon scene was not understandable not because I didn't know some lore or context, it was literally not understandble because the use of language and obfuscation in that scene is cranked up to a 999 and I couldn't understand literally what was going on on page. Like what is Erikson trying to depict here? What am I supposed to see in front of my eyes as I read this? I have a 10 page document where I basically dissect every fucking line in that scene and how I don't understand any of that. Kind Malazan veterans commented on that, making me understand what actually happened on page a bit, but Erikson's approach there was so confusing and obfuscated, it literally didn't make any sense. And some things wouldn't make sense after even finishing the series if not for kind and very smart people who explained to me some hints and hinted at laws of magic, that actually never even become important or repeat themselves over the course of the series. So no, I don't agree that dragon scene will make any sense after continuing the read. It didn't to me, and I tried very hard to understand, but without Malazan veterans it would have remained a total nonsense to me
Lol, wait, I was thinking about dragon scene in Deadhouse Gates. The dragon scene in House of Chains was confusing, but it was alright for understtanding. My bad
Persistent confusion about what one should or should not understand by now? Check. Loving to follow characters you actually would despise personally? Check. Feeling that empathy with some characters here is like a continuous stab wound? Check. Hating to read that specific trauma but also loving Erikson for writing it well and not shying from the harsh realities? Check. Being thankful for the revenge? Check. Yes, your review makes plenty of sense to me :) I'm getting to the end of the main saga, now reading some Esselmont in between and it's become my favourite fantasy series of all time.
It's wonderful to hear your thoughts on House of Chains, Merphy! I will be very interested to hear your thoughts on certain characters, such as Karsa, as you progress through the series. You are absolutely right about the way Malazan characters suddenly appear more complex or can appear in a new light that might be surprising. Cheers!
I loved hearing your thoughts on House of Chains, Merphy! You perfectly described what I loved about this book: Karsa's complex character arc, the dynamics between character pairs, Fiddler, and the tragic moment between sisters 💔. Your confusion is relatable, and I also regretted spacing out the first four books. You still had many meaningful things to share about what you did understand, and I'm enjoying your journey! Witness!
I hated Felisin but I cried when she died and her last thoughts were why her sister doesn't love her. Immediately made me feel like an asshole for being so harsh on her and how she dealt with her trauma. So well done.
I loved her and I am not even crying I’m just upset. Like, she had such a rough go of it. She just gets murdered by Tavore without finding out what happened and that her sister actually loved her? After all she’s been through and endured, she gets left unprotected in a fight she has no chance of winning and dies in a single blow? Like fuck man. Idk I feel like she deserved better than that. I know her whole character is meant to be tragic but fucking hell this was just awful. I just finished the book and I’m just so sad. Maybe by the end of the series I’ll appreciate it more but as of now it just feels like her character just existed to be abused and unceremoniously killed and I really hate it
Tavore gets one brief POV, like a page…in book 10. It’s very much an intentional choice by Erikson, similar to his approach with Anomander Rake. He’s talked about it various places, keeping the Tavore cards close to his proverbial vest. So at a meta level, the reader experiences the same thing the character around Tavore do: constantly wondering at and questioning her motives and actions. That leads to real repercussions with different members of her army throughout the series.
And I maybe the only one who thinks that was a mistake. I didn't give a shit about Tavore at the end of the series and it is not my fault, I want to say. But I am not a huge Malazan fan anyway, so I must be wrong
I couldn't stand Tavore when she was introduced. Even before book 10 she was one of my favourite characters. She is a bloody brilliant character (pardon the language). To my mind there is also a very good reason why Erickson didn't make her a POV character. He couldn't let the reader into her mind at this point in the story.
@@Rendrefnothing wrong with that. I cared deeply about Tavore from the moment she became Adjunct and sent her sister into prison/exile, but that’s only how I read the story. Almost any interpretation is valid.
Completed this book just yesterday. And finally I’m ready for your wonderful spoiler review like with every previous Malazan book ❤ It was good and compelling but for me not so much as 1-3 books. Still love every minute of Malazan. Friendship is the best thing that Erikson makes so solid and satisfying.
Thank you for your interesting reflections. Yes, definitely not a less dark book. The Felisin Younger scene was actually the one in the first four books that made me physically repulsed the most. What I think was harshest is that everybody wanted to protect her, but everybody had other priorities, which is actually a core vulnerability for children. And yes I also enjoyed the justice dished out and the poetic means. And yes, I cried for Felisin Older at the end. So sad. Stomach knotting.
Of the 3 specific things that you mentioned not understanding, they all have payoff, and never in the way you expect. This book does a stunningly good job of polishing off plot points set up in the first 3 while also doing a lot of heavy lifting in terms of setup for the next 6. Also I'm glad you also recognized just how incredible Erikson is at writing duos. If you were impressed by how he's done it so far, hold onto that hype; it only gets better from here.
First off, great review, and second, thank you for sharing my comment from the vlog video! There's a longer context for that quote but it involves spoilers from later books (so avoid at least for now). I'd say you are getting the understanding you are supposed to get. You are correct in picking up on the fact that Erikson does NOT use certain characters as POVs partly to misdirect the reader. And by virtue of the fact that we only learn things when characters know them, certain events are not going to make sense until you get more context. On the other hand, sometimes things are just "there" in the world as part of the world - not necessarily everything comes back again. So you just have to remember as much as you can.
i appreciated how Erickson wrote those Felisin Younger scenes with clear sympathy towards her. so many authors write stuff like that with the narrative primarily in mind, or the evildoer in mind, with disregard to the victim. but erickson really made his sympathy clear which rocks
I also felt that Thorfinn and Karsa has very similar themes. Especially when Karsa was on that Ship and he had that nightmare about everyone who he killed coming for him
I love how Karsa functions as a deconstruction of Conan (and the "noble barbarian" trope)--also love how his character gradually grows and learns better.
We've been reading Malazan at the exact same time (by pure luck) and I've been enjoying A LOT your reviews after I finish each book. I'm about to finish HOC and it's already one of my favorite books. Fantastic stuff!!!
The reason there are so many duos is coz usually they are one of eriksons characters and one of esslemonts as they role played alot of the world in the 80s as they built it together
(Commenting as you go through the video. This is my first real talk video and I'm excited.) I am super impressed that you got through Karsa's story arc and I don't think anyone expects to like him by the end and are super surprised when they do. He's still a very brutal character but his journey out of fanaticism is very, very interesting. I don't necessarily like the direction he's going instead but, hey, it's still an awesome ride. He has his own series now. The first book is out. I'm so sorry about Felisin. You said how much you loved her in one of your previous videos and I was like, "Oh No!" Felisin the Younger. Ouch. All the ouch. I cannot read most horror related things any more. However, with Erikson, I'm with you, I can read it and feel cared for and carried through as opposed to thrust in and left to flail. And oh yes... vindication was very, very sweet! That sleaze. With Apsalar, I don't think she doesn't believe Crokus. I think she does and that she sees him changing himself for her. She loved Crocus as he was, she loved him as the fisher girl, not as Apsalar the assassin. Seeing Crocus become Cutter, choosing to mold himself into an assassin because he thinks it's what she needs, tears her up inside. There is also a part of her that feels that, in doing so, he rejected the fisher girl in favor of the assassin which she absolutely loathes. Watching him become what she hates isn't something she can deal with. Fiddler/Strings is one of my favorite characters in the whole series. I adore him so much. For Erikson, please know... there are things that never, ever get tied up by him. Some of them are tied up with Esslemont so I don't know them either. I just don't like Esslemont as much so it's hard for me to read him. Spoiler free assurances: The dragon shows up later, this is a cameo. You do find out about the sea. It's in the next book. Heboric makes sense eventually. Book 5 is my favorite!
I haven't read the whole series so this isn't a spoiler, because I don't know what it means, but I know just from reading this book and hearing Erikson talk about it that one of his biggest regrets in the series is not showing from Tavor's perspective more early in the series.
Great review, Merphy. I especially enjoyed your thoughts on Karsa, Tavore, and Felisin. It’ll be interesting to see how your feelings on Tavore evolve. I think everyone feels overwhelmed by this series at some point during the first read but it’s definitely worth the effort in the end.
If I ever talk with someone who's reading HoC for thr first time, and they're struggling to understand what Erikson is doing with this new Tavore character - I'll point them directly to this video. When it comes to Tavore, you're asking all the right questions. Great video, especially the segment on Tavore.
Hey Merphy! Regarding that Karsa introduction, the story goes that some critic said that the reason that Erikson did not stick with one character's POV for long in his books was because he was not good enough to do so. That Karsa introduction was SE's answer to that. And I think every single Malazan fan had the same journey with Karsa that you did - from horror and contempt to interest and fascination and finally to becoming a fan. Sure, you don't forgive him for what he did earlier but you are still a fan nonetheless. Regarding, your overall view, HOC is one of my least favourite Malazan books too (along with the first one). I still don't understand that jade statue thing with Heboric. I remember that on my last reread (the 2nd time overall), there were a couple of minutes of clarity where things were falling into place regarding all this jade statue thing, but sadly, like a dream I lost that clarity soon after. I started my second reread a couple of months ago and am on the 2nd book right now and hoping that this time things will fall into place. Lastly, book 5 is sooo good! It has an awesome prologue and has my own persona favourite duo. They are awesome and ROFL funny!
Midnight Tides is the capstone for the whole series that sets the story on its path toward the conclusion in the last few books. It's also one of the most narratively focused books in the series.
Fantastic video. I appreciate the shout out! House of Chains is probably the book that I think would be so much better now that I have finished the series. I’m glad you’re enjoying these! And yes, Heboric is a constant WTF lmao
Karsa Orlong quickly became my favorite character in the series after that start. I don't think that it is as good as book 3, but I'd definitely put it in the same tier as book 2 with 1 below the two of them.
Great review! Some stuff makes sence now and some thung will make sence in the following books. Heboric is however another question that I'm still unsure about at book 10
For me, part of the fun of these books is that Erickson intentionally leaves you only with what the characters know. It's up to you to make hypothesis with what is going on, just as the character need to. Do the characters know what's going on with the jade statues? Of course not. Now you share in their struggle to understand a massively complex world.
Really neat watching you review these books at the same pace I’ve been reading them. Each one I read makes me need a little break from the series. But I love it.
The thing that I like about malazan is that it is sort of like a history rather than a story in the way I read it. You're trying to figure out what happened, sometimes you get first person perspectives sometimes knowledge is just too old and you can just get fragments to try and price together. With the sea arriving, from my understanding I'm pretty sure the whirlwind goddess was originally an Imass. The imass's magic and Warren's are more tied to time rather than physical aspects. When Imass use their warrens, has a flavour of an earlier time. Now the whirlwind goddess evolved into what she became and when she died her magic that was tied to the past which for the desert meant that it use to be a sea, made it come back. I have no idea how well that really fits but it's where my mind took that story, which is half of malazan for me.
Erickson has said in some interviews that the most epic characters cannot possibly live up to expectations… therefore, use them less and perhaps show them through an outside view ie…Tavore. George RR Martin did this with some awesome characters also such as Rob Stark. BTW Tavore’s story is awesome and her decisions are epic going forward. Like you I just want more! But THAT is the point (I think). She is one of my all time favorite female characters in all of literature. Cheers
First of all I apologize for telling that this book is less intense (didn't say it was less dark though) . When I said it in your vlog it was in reference to Memories of Ice and Deadhouse Gates and the huge amount of epic battle scenes and war and killings that are there which is much less in this book. This rather finishes anticlimactically on a personal level. But I forgot to account for the sexual assault part in this book and I am really sorry for that, for setting the wrong expectations. Regarding Tavore, she has absolutely no idea where Felisin is, even when she is killing her, but Felisin does. That is the greatest tragedy here, that Felisin knows Tavore and is hurting, while Tavore has no idea. Tavore does love Felisin, which is why she separately sent Lostara and Pearl to search for her defying the empress, and she was finally told that Felisin is dead. Regarding the parts not understanding, the Heboric and Jade Statue stuff will be confusing till late in the series, so you can file that away.
Please don’t apologize! I expect these books to be dark no matter what, so you’re totally fine. And you’re right that it is less intense battle wise! Thank you for you’re thoughts on Tavore, she’s a character I’m excited to get to know better
That quote from eriksen's wife wasn't about felisin....it was after *another* extremely dark scene in a later book . That scene is literally the hardest thing I've ever read. When you get there, you'll see
House of Chains seems to have been written in no small part as a response by Erickson to what people thought he could not do. "Why does he never stick to one character?" Enter Book 1 being almost entirely Karsa. Who is, if you read SE's essays, an overt deconstruction of the "Noble Savage" archetype. HoC is definitely the most polarizing of the 10 (possible exception Toll the Hounds. Though that seems to have gone up in reader estimation over the years.) For me, it's firmly in the middle. Memories of Ice and Bonehunters being my 2 favorites. As to why no Tavore POV. I would suggest it's for a similar reason to why Anomander Rake is (almost) never a PoV. Tavore is, to the eyes of the soldiers, the Avatar of the Empress. She is not allowed to have her own personality. Her own grievances. She speaks for the Throne. And the Empress is remote, inaccessible, inscrutable. Tavore's personal armor is dependant on that distance. To show her PoV would give her a humanity, an identity, that she cannot allow herself even. At least not yet.
I have read the first 3 and this one up next. Not sure I can continue though. His writing style. Ugh. Appreciate your honest assessment. And no hearing the spoilers won't affect my read IF I ever continue as I seldom know what is happening in even the simplest of scenes. It's THAT convoluted. Good luck on your read through. I fear you'll need it.
Intresting tipbit I learned through Daniel Greene about Malazan as a whole which I think is why you are getting that "Harder to read upon first read but rereadable upon second read" feeling. Malazan origonally apparently was written based on a Dungons and Dragon's Game which they were building the world and putting in these world building elements. They wanted to write the books to build upon that even more so when the campaign ended. The trickling and alluding to infomation tactic is actually normal for Table Top Roleplaying Games. It's a bit based on the Oral story tradition and you're suppose to have the players explore these details as they play, and sometimes they never find the threads, but sometimes they do find the threads by accident. The Aurthors just found a way to give you that feeling in a format that works for novels. As for the part that wasn't fun for you to read.... I do apperciate that aurthor took the time to actually talk about the nuiance of it, the emotions, and the conversations. I do enjoy Beserk because it does actually talk about it in a *different* way, where the person is damaged so much by it that it causes that person to lash out in not so great ways, but as you continue on, Guts learns how to converse with others over time. As a survior and as someone processing it, it's hard to have people believe what you are going through mentally and how you see your own body, your own anger, your own self worth. It's why I also apperciate Deerskin, even though I think I struggled because I may not be ready yet, but I want to still back into it because it does actually explain the healing process so well, and how it's a back and fourth between seeing yourself worthy and not worthy of being loved and apperciated. Eventually I am considering starting the Malazan books if I can get through my origonal TBR, but It may take me a while as I have to take baby steps, but I am glad they don't just brush it under the rug.
My boys Trull and Onrack getting zero mention, aww. I get it though, they're new and their part has less overlap with the rest of the book. And about the jade stuff with Heboric, don't worry, you're not supposed to get it yet. That's a long term payoff thing.
I just finished up HOC 2 days ago (first read through). I agree with a lot of your points, these books can be incredibly uncomfortable to read at times. My one disagreement is about this being too confusing now. It's DEFINITELY confusing, but I am starting to feel like all of the elements are there to start pulling the story out of it. (HOC SPOLIERS BELOW) I don't fully get the flooded sea element either but there's so many hints to start forming an idea about it. - There's a warren flooded with water, there we find Trull Sengar, a Tiste Edur (beginning of the book) - Shaiks Camp is in Raraku, a desert that used to be a sea, throughout the camp are various elements of Shadow worshippers - Loric, a Tiste Liosan, searches for his father Osric, he breaks into a memory from another time and finds his father (a soletaken dragon) at the center of a large lake (sea?), there we find hounds of darkness, and what seems to be the Eres - there's an ongoing conflict for the throne of shadow between - Shadowthrone, the Tiste Edur, Tiste Andii, Shaik, the crippled god etc. all are battling in some way for this - we constantly hear Raraku holds the memories of it's past (osric was in a memory) - in the final battle, Ghosts (memories), help the malazans defeat Shaik\ - then the water returns to the desert My guess is something along the lines of... Raraku used to be connected to the Warren of Shadow, there was a sea there. Some big event caused that sea to drain into another warren or several warrens (fragments) and that's what we see in these memories. At the end of the book as Shaik is defeated, the sea is returned to Raraku. I could be totally wrong lol but I'm running with this hypothesis at the moment.
Great review! Love the character talk. Very interesting thoughts on Tavore and Felisin. I was devastated with how Felisin’s story played out in this book as well. I was also desperate to get into Tavore’s head and understand her, to see some follow up on what happened. I felt I just could not be satisfied with how things played out otherwise. Thusly, I was obsessed with Tavore going forward, and read as intently as I could when she was on page and it led to an immensely engaging reading experience. I hope it’s the same for you! She’s a tough nut to crack, but the process of trying to was one of my favorite parts of these books.
Pretty sure House of Chains is a challenge for all Malazan readers lol The first portion with Karsa absolutely disgusted me and I almost quit reading, but pushing through was worth it. I look forward to your review of Midnight Tides!
Your criticisms are Legitimate. When I read it, I had some issues keeping things straight as well. Karsa has become one of my favorite characters of the series. Along with Fiddler. You are right in that Midnight Tides is different from the first four, since we will be seeing brand new characters. I've been anxious to see your review of House of Chains. Great video as always.
I'm a little late with this, but the dragon, alongside the Forkrul released by Karsa near the beginning are two of the longest 'long games' of the entire series. Don't worry!
i read it as it was published (yes I'm that old ) so I was forced to have a big break between the books I thinks that short break is better ( a month ) And don't worry on things you don"t understand the answer will come in the end , not all off the answer occurs but most off them
House of Chains was my least favourite as well, and it just went up from there. Looking back, it has the most lore and I think I will absolutely adore it on reread. You don't need to understand much of the dragon, just that it's there and put a pin in it, it will become relevant in later books. Frankly, the jade statues, the flooded land, all of these will get explained later (some sooner and some... well, later) and it will feel so satisfying!
Heads up for Midnight tides: It's like reading Gardens of the moon for the first time. However, the next books are way easier because it's the continuation from the three previous story arcs
That was such an interesting read, to me. I loved SO MUCH about it, but I also had a lot of things just not paying off yet. And I know a lot of it isn't meant to pay off, but they took a pretty sizeable chunk of the book anyway, so it was kinda annoying when it jumped from a perspective I was really into to one of those purely setups. Still, I was intrigued by them and am following them closely, so that was not nearly as much a problem as it might read from the way I worded it. It's just that I hadn't felt that as much in the previous books. Karsa is awesome, though. Like, I was finding him pretty terrible in the beginning (in a good way, not as in "bad character"), but I actually love him, now. Like, it's not even that I kinda like him - I love him. Fiddler really got into my heart as well. Specially with the gesture of turning the omen of the child leading the army to their deaths. Quick Ben, though, went very quickly (pun not intended) from my number 1 character to a (still undecided) much lower spot. That Lostara flashback was not one I wanted Quick Ben to have been a part of, in that way. I was really disappointed in him. I was like "oh, I recognize Delat, Quick Ben is the one that dismantled Bidithal's Rashan cult!" and then "wait, is this really implying what I think it's implying?" and, yeah, I guess it was. Which is not cool. And 100% agreed on Tavore. I'm very intrigued by her (and by Grub, lol). And YES, seeing Bidithal get it from Karsa and in the way he did was PERFECT. I was so happy reading that. Like, just perfect. That quote from his wife is just incredible, too. I loved it very much. Also, I'll also be watching that video from the Fantasy Nuttwork. I don't have that many problems with it, but the more appreciation the better anyway, right? I really want to read Midnight Tides immediately, though. I won't, because I need some days to end processing House of Chains and I still need to read The Healthy Dead (following the wiki's suggested reading order), but I'm very excited. For the wrong reason, probably: I want to get to Night of Knives (the first Esslemont) and I want to get to The Bonehunters, because I noticed an epigraph from _The Bonehunters_ in Deadhouse Gates about Coltaine's Chain of Dogs and I've been dying to know what they are since then, lmao. ALSO ALSO, I'm pretty sure Traveller was Dassem Ultor, which was really fun. And the Keeper was interesting, too (but this one we saw first and then heard about later, so the AHA came in the reversed order)
Karsa is a great character. Looking forward to when you get to midnight tides. Erikson writes pairs of characters so well and imo book 5 introduces the best pair.
RE the sea flooding into the desert: the sea is the desert, least that's how I understood it from my first read (on my second now). Because with the death of the Whirlwind goddess Ruraku can finally live again.
Great review! Loved your thoughts. In terms of "understanding" and things "clicking into place", in my experience I didn't start seeing the puzzle pieces coming together until like book 7. Even now, on book 9, I still have questions about things introduced in this book hahah. Also I love your observation about Erikson's ability to write compelling duos! Trull and Onrack were a highlight for me for sure. I hope you enjoy Midnight Tides! It's definitely on the top of my personal pile.
We really have no business liking Karsa but at the same time eagerly await for him to show up again and in some ways root for him. As for intentionally holding back, well yes. All authors do this. If Erickson explained everything that is going on while it happened they would be insanely long and would not have the same impact. A lot is foreshadowed, you just don't kniw what was until the events actually happen. But the pieces on the board are moving and gaining momentum. And yeah, nobody understands a lot of Heboric and sometimes takes you out of the moment. AP does do a close reading of the final duel that makes it seem even more intense and personal.
While it is one of the more challenging of the Malazan books there is still so much to like in House of Chains. The character arc for Karsa is an achievement in itself, considering how unlikeable he is at the beginning. But I especially loved the scenes on the island, where we get to see Cotillion do some work, and we get the introduction of Traveler. So many storylines start falling into place, and now you get to shift perspective again and read Midnight Tides. More amazing characters to come. Hope you enjoy it.
you guys and gals should listen to the audio books. the narrators do an amazing job bringing all the characters we all love to life! karsa is hilarious in the bonhunters which is what i am listening to right now. i plan to re read all ten books of course. all hail to karsa!!!!!!
Heboric will not make sense until literally the last book so don't worry about him that much! The dragon (I assume you're talking about the Otataral Dragon that Pearl and Yostara Yil find? Is also something just being set up. Treat it as just a cool landmark random encounter they find. Book 5 is definitely quite different, and also one of my favourites. There's another great duo you'll love there. ;) My absolute favourite is book 6, and book 7 is close too so you're in for a treat!
It is a brutal world inhabited by many who are indifferent to that brutality and a few who are driven by compassion to fight against that brutality. Understanding that is understanding the series. Everything else is just the mechanics. Most of which you will understand by the end🤣. Then a little bit more on a reread etc.. Tbh it is good to use the excellent wiki to keep track of the 500 odd pov characters
Hi, it is nice to hear from you and malazan. You can start book 5, it is less hard than House of Chains. I think. I remember that I was constantly laughing with that one. Even if there are some amazing/hard things around. But not like the Felising kind.
I've read the entire series three times and still don't understand half of Heboric's shenanigans... Also, I didn't even like Felisin at all, but her words "Why did you not love me when I loved you?" touch me deeply on each read; a perfect ending to her story arc and one of the best moments of the series.
Ugh, I’m glad someone enjoyed it because I HATED it. It feels like her character just existed to be abused and killed. She had barely any agency in anything she did, and does unceremoniously in the most tragically ironic and unsatisfying way possible, never knowing her sister loved her. I get that it’s grimdark but fuck man, I hoped she’d get *some* solace or closure or *something*. Having her go out like that after all she went through just feels bad
You’re so on point here! And I wanted to hyper-focus on the grim dark genre, in particular, because it’s a genre that I love and hate at the same time. Why can’t we see other struggles in these world that aren’t surrounded around explicitly torturing women (and children)?!?! It’s just always the same thing regurgitated over and over again often used for shock value, I mean women struggle with hundreds of other problems in this world. And I mean I understand the grim dark sub-category, trust me I do, but I want to see some variety out there… Take for example Slasher movies that constantly show naked women running from the perpetrator and then being gruesomely stabbed, why aren’t there more naked men running for their lives in the same way 🤔 It’s just irritating sometimes to see the same thing over and over again…
@@joshuasmith8695 That’s true (though I haven’t read it yet), the reason why I hyper-focused on Grimdark is because Merphy mentioned Grimdark in the video and at the time I just felt the need to expand on it 😂
So this ended up being my favorite book so far in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. I really do not know why I found it a good read since the story kind of gets blurry after the halfway point. SPOILERS!!! and long comment The book starting with Karsa was interesting, but his heinous acts were disturbing. Although, his story and the Teblor culture were very clear to follow and did add a bit more to an already complicated world. Eventually, the book gets to Tavore and the troops she commands for the sort of re-taking of the seven cities. Or at least that is the goal. Gamet showing up again was a surprised since I got the impression he was perhaps a bit too old to be in a military commanding role. Strings was nice to see again. Then the book gets to the returning Crokus/Cutter and Sorry/Apsalar. Interesting that Apsalar got to her home with her dad, and then her dad died. Then they do some assassin jobs and then eventually go on a mission from Cotillion. I am ultimately confused on what the Shadowthrone plan was. In the end Apsalar disappears and Cutter got a new mission (or that was the goal idk). Kalam also is in the book and does what he does best. Travel around and do some things. Also sent by Cotillion, and the goal probably was to investigate the whirlwind to confirm something for the Shadowthrone. I really do not know if it was worth it for the Shadowthrone since the whirlwind seems to get disbanded. Was Quick Ben part of the plan too? idk Sha'ik Felisin and her Whirlwind army of the Apocalypse were definitely an interesting element of the book. Since all the factions were a bit disjointed, it was little hard to follow what was going on. How that Army got dealt with and Felisin's demise was a surprise to read. I did not really notice the lack of emotion or thought from Tavore, I assume it might be cause an adjunct has to work as the will of the Empress. So, I thought the lacking emotions was just something of her training or an expectation. Trull and Onrack had a nice story till the end. I knew they were going to the "first throne" or stopping someone from reaching it towards the end of the book, but they encountered something and I was confused in the epilogue. I do expect at this point to get confused, so it is not so off putting at this point in the series. I see this series at this point as a world with many mysteries to discover and hopefully find the truth about. Although, finishing a book with more questions than answers can in itself be satisfying to think about. Hood's Balls, House of Chains is a complicated book.
I genuinely liked this book a lot, but I am SO UPSET about the ending with Felisin (Paran). She went through so much, had her agency stripped away at every turn, and at the very end loses all the boons she got and faces the most tragic fate against her sister imaginable. She deserved a better end, some sort of solace, something. It was a beautiful tragedy and I hate it so much. And to clarify, I am NOT saying it’s bad, I’m just saying I hate it and I’m sad
Can anyone explain to me what happened to Calm? She said shed be there when Karsa was going to unite the people but then... nothing. I feel like I missed a whole lot there.
Heboric doesn't know what is going on with him either.... so you likely aren't feeling anything there that you shouldn't. His arc is one of the more difficult to wrap your head around though and you'll likely still have questions once the series is over.
Book 4 was my least favourite in the series up till now (just finished book eight). Book 3 remained my favourite till then, but was solidly defeated by book 5. I cannot wait for your review of that one!
Same dude. It's my least favorite but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were the most important of the series. But there were parts in it that I definitely enjoyed. Karsa's story being one of them. The next two books are my favorite so far so get excited.
This series is much more daunting and difficult in audiobook because these are so very dense. There will be times when you need to reread a para or a section, or sometimes go back few pages and chapters to read something again. Thats very difficult in audiobooks. You can use the audiobooks as supplementary to normal reading where you listen to it while you read, but solely audiobook will be more difficult.
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This is objectively lighter than the first three volumes because of the Tiste Liosan.
Merphy, since you asked. Why not Tavore's POV? I'm afraid it will take until Book Ten for that to make sense. I closed the door on her. This is all building up to one line. In the meantime, hold onto your questions about Tavore. Rail at her, scream at her, hate her, doubt her, dismiss her, despise her. You're meant to. Thanks for your comments on the Malazan novels. As for the confusion you felt at times ... mea culpa. There are things set up here that don't resolve until much later. It's been a delight listening to your reactions and I do hope you enjoy reading the rest of the series. Cheers!
How is this comment flying under the radar??? LOL. Thank you Steve for your constant engagement with the community, it truly improves my experience with the books and helps me enjoy consuming content AROUND the books even more.
Merphy Merphy look!!! It's Steve!!!
@@slidenaway kinda get the feeling the penny isn’t dropping, right? 😂
Hopefully she’ll notice this comment at some point.
Man I can't tell you how cool it is to see you casually commenting on reviews of your books. I'm absolutely loving this series!
I love your books and love you for bringing them into the world. Sincerely, thank you.
Best part from the book:
"Monok Ochem paused, then cocked its head. ‘Trull Sengar, you have not begun your tale, yet already you weep.’ The Tiste Edur studied the bonecaster for a long moment, as the tears ran down his gaunt cheeks. ‘I weep, Monok Ochem, because he cannot.’"
Trull weeping for Onrack because Onrack cannot cry - is one of the best things I have read from Erickson and one of the most heart touching and compassionate things ever.
It directly reminded me of the scene in Conan the Barbarian, when Conan burns the corpse of his lover Valeria and we see his friend Subotai crying, and the old sorcerer asks him why is he weeping, and he answers in a similar fashion "I cry because he is Conan. He is a Cimmerian, He won't cry, so I cry for him" or something like that. Very touching scene too.
Malazan is definitely a series that slaps so much harder on the second read. If you like Erikson’s duos then hoo boy get ready for the best one!
Tavore probably see's herself as indirectly killing Felisin through her actions but if she ever finds out that it was in fact her hand that delivered the killing blow...wow.
The Scorpion sub-plot/sequence is one of my favourite ‘wee’ bits of Malazan. It’s funny and dark and character-driven and thematic and so much of what Malazan has to offer packed into something that could have easily been on the cutting room floor
I have not read the book in over ten years, but I remember that scene so well. Stormy’s reaction was pure gold.
@@frostburnwoof i finished the book yesterday,n i LoLed when stormy shouted CHEAT!!!!!!!!!! N that part where the other corporals swearing that they see nothing wrong with the scorpion but they know that something is wrong.
"Strings" is probably my favourite character in the whole series
I wonder who that might be
Strings is awesome! I cant pick a favorite between Karsa, Tehol, Bugg, Paws, Quick Ben, the crazy lucky alcoholic chic with the spider phobia who's name eludes me, Bottle, Ganoes, Hedge, Cutter...jesus I could keep this list going for way too long now that i think about it...Karsa, Tehol and Bugg!
@@abcarlson3293 That would be Hellian...
@@joshuasmith8695 I love Hellion 😅
I don’t know he just seems to be an older more bitter Fiddler🤫. Like come on can’t you think a new character design.😜
As a Malazan superfan I love the exposure that Merphy brings to the series. Being her wonderful successful self puts it in front of people that wouldn't ever know it, keep up the good work
If you love duos and characters, just wait until you meet Tehol and Bugg in the next book. Literally the BEST!
I completely agree w/ you on his very taxing writing style...
Satisfying but I always feel like I'm not quite clear on the where this is going or WtF just happened!😅
I find after reading each volume that I've already 'read' it twice😊
Things you said you don’t understand:
(1) the dragon: keep reading!
(2) the sea filling in the desert - from what I recall, the whirlwind goddess actually perpetuated the desert with her anger. When she dissipated, the waters came back.
(3) Heboric: keep reading! You’re doing fine.
Malazan is my favorite thing ever - I’ve read it three times through in ten years. These reviews bring a bit a semi-nostalgic joy to me. I understand you need to take breaks, but I’m looking forward to the next one!
Your understanding of #2 is correct.
To be fair, when I read this book the dragon scene was not understandable not because I didn't know some lore or context, it was literally not understandble because the use of language and obfuscation in that scene is cranked up to a 999 and I couldn't understand literally what was going on on page. Like what is Erikson trying to depict here? What am I supposed to see in front of my eyes as I read this? I have a 10 page document where I basically dissect every fucking line in that scene and how I don't understand any of that. Kind Malazan veterans commented on that, making me understand what actually happened on page a bit, but Erikson's approach there was so confusing and obfuscated, it literally didn't make any sense. And some things wouldn't make sense after even finishing the series if not for kind and very smart people who explained to me some hints and hinted at laws of magic, that actually never even become important or repeat themselves over the course of the series. So no, I don't agree that dragon scene will make any sense after continuing the read. It didn't to me, and I tried very hard to understand, but without Malazan veterans it would have remained a total nonsense to me
Lol, wait, I was thinking about dragon scene in Deadhouse Gates. The dragon scene in House of Chains was confusing, but it was alright for understtanding. My bad
Persistent confusion about what one should or should not understand by now? Check.
Loving to follow characters you actually would despise personally? Check.
Feeling that empathy with some characters here is like a continuous stab wound? Check.
Hating to read that specific trauma but also loving Erikson for writing it well and not shying from the harsh realities? Check. Being thankful for the revenge? Check.
Yes, your review makes plenty of sense to me :) I'm getting to the end of the main saga, now reading some Esselmont in between and it's become my favourite fantasy series of all time.
It's wonderful to hear your thoughts on House of Chains, Merphy! I will be very interested to hear your thoughts on certain characters, such as Karsa, as you progress through the series. You are absolutely right about the way Malazan characters suddenly appear more complex or can appear in a new light that might be surprising. Cheers!
I loved hearing your thoughts on House of Chains, Merphy! You perfectly described what I loved about this book: Karsa's complex character arc, the dynamics between character pairs, Fiddler, and the tragic moment between sisters 💔. Your confusion is relatable, and I also regretted spacing out the first four books. You still had many meaningful things to share about what you did understand, and I'm enjoying your journey! Witness!
I hated Felisin but I cried when she died and her last thoughts were why her sister doesn't love her. Immediately made me feel like an asshole for being so harsh on her and how she dealt with her trauma. So well done.
I loved her and I am not even crying I’m just upset. Like, she had such a rough go of it. She just gets murdered by Tavore without finding out what happened and that her sister actually loved her? After all she’s been through and endured, she gets left unprotected in a fight she has no chance of winning and dies in a single blow? Like fuck man. Idk I feel like she deserved better than that. I know her whole character is meant to be tragic but fucking hell this was just awful. I just finished the book and I’m just so sad. Maybe by the end of the series I’ll appreciate it more but as of now it just feels like her character just existed to be abused and unceremoniously killed and I really hate it
Tavore gets one brief POV, like a page…in book 10. It’s very much an intentional choice by Erikson, similar to his approach with Anomander Rake. He’s talked about it various places, keeping the Tavore cards close to his proverbial vest. So at a meta level, the reader experiences the same thing the character around Tavore do: constantly wondering at and questioning her motives and actions. That leads to real repercussions with different members of her army throughout the series.
And I maybe the only one who thinks that was a mistake. I didn't give a shit about Tavore at the end of the series and it is not my fault, I want to say. But I am not a huge Malazan fan anyway, so I must be wrong
I couldn't stand Tavore when she was introduced. Even before book 10 she was one of my favourite characters. She is a bloody brilliant character (pardon the language).
To my mind there is also a very good reason why Erickson didn't make her a POV character. He couldn't let the reader into her mind at this point in the story.
@@Rendref You're probably not the only one and you're not wrong for thinking that, completely valid opinion even if I don't agree.
@@Rendrefnothing wrong with that. I cared deeply about Tavore from the moment she became Adjunct and sent her sister into prison/exile, but that’s only how I read the story. Almost any interpretation is valid.
Completed this book just yesterday. And finally I’m ready for your wonderful spoiler review like with every previous Malazan book ❤ It was good and compelling but for me not so much as 1-3 books. Still love every minute of Malazan. Friendship is the best thing that Erikson makes so solid and satisfying.
Thank you for your interesting reflections. Yes, definitely not a less dark book. The Felisin Younger scene was actually the one in the first four books that made me physically repulsed the most. What I think was harshest is that everybody wanted to protect her, but everybody had other priorities, which is actually a core vulnerability for children. And yes I also enjoyed the justice dished out and the poetic means.
And yes, I cried for Felisin Older at the end. So sad. Stomach knotting.
Of the 3 specific things that you mentioned not understanding, they all have payoff, and never in the way you expect. This book does a stunningly good job of polishing off plot points set up in the first 3 while also doing a lot of heavy lifting in terms of setup for the next 6.
Also I'm glad you also recognized just how incredible Erikson is at writing duos. If you were impressed by how he's done it so far, hold onto that hype; it only gets better from here.
The next book is my personal fav, I can’t wait!
Tavore never has any POVs, but she’s such a good character. She really shines later on.
***Mild Spoilers tCG***
Doesn't she get like... one PoV at the very end of tCG?
Excited for your book 5 experience, its really amazing!
First off, great review, and second, thank you for sharing my comment from the vlog video! There's a longer context for that quote but it involves spoilers from later books (so avoid at least for now).
I'd say you are getting the understanding you are supposed to get. You are correct in picking up on the fact that Erikson does NOT use certain characters as POVs partly to misdirect the reader. And by virtue of the fact that we only learn things when characters know them, certain events are not going to make sense until you get more context. On the other hand, sometimes things are just "there" in the world as part of the world - not necessarily everything comes back again. So you just have to remember as much as you can.
i appreciated how Erickson wrote those Felisin Younger scenes with clear sympathy towards her. so many authors write stuff like that with the narrative primarily in mind, or the evildoer in mind, with disregard to the victim. but erickson really made his sympathy clear which rocks
I also felt that Thorfinn and Karsa has very similar themes. Especially when Karsa was on that Ship and he had that nightmare about everyone who he killed coming for him
I love how Karsa functions as a deconstruction of Conan (and the "noble barbarian" trope)--also love how his character gradually grows and learns better.
I've gone thru the whole series like 10 times. I love it each time!
We've been reading Malazan at the exact same time (by pure luck) and I've been enjoying A LOT your reviews after I finish each book. I'm about to finish HOC and it's already one of my favorite books. Fantastic stuff!!!
Get Erikson on the horn!! An interview with the man would be GREAT, and he’ll probably clarify some stuff for you!!
Yess and he would almost definitely agree to it as he is constaly appearing on small channels too!
Do a mid series one after 5, and a end of series one.
The reason there are so many duos is coz usually they are one of eriksons characters and one of esslemonts as they role played alot of the world in the 80s as they built it together
I'm glad you're taking breaks between the books. MBotF is not easy breezy binge material.
Karsa’s growth from his raids in Book 1, to the punishment he gave Bidithal for what he did to felisin younger. that’s growth!
(Commenting as you go through the video. This is my first real talk video and I'm excited.)
I am super impressed that you got through Karsa's story arc and I don't think anyone expects to like him by the end and are super surprised when they do. He's still a very brutal character but his journey out of fanaticism is very, very interesting. I don't necessarily like the direction he's going instead but, hey, it's still an awesome ride. He has his own series now. The first book is out.
I'm so sorry about Felisin. You said how much you loved her in one of your previous videos and I was like, "Oh No!"
Felisin the Younger. Ouch. All the ouch. I cannot read most horror related things any more. However, with Erikson, I'm with you, I can read it and feel cared for and carried through as opposed to thrust in and left to flail. And oh yes... vindication was very, very sweet! That sleaze.
With Apsalar, I don't think she doesn't believe Crokus. I think she does and that she sees him changing himself for her. She loved Crocus as he was, she loved him as the fisher girl, not as Apsalar the assassin. Seeing Crocus become Cutter, choosing to mold himself into an assassin because he thinks it's what she needs, tears her up inside. There is also a part of her that feels that, in doing so, he rejected the fisher girl in favor of the assassin which she absolutely loathes. Watching him become what she hates isn't something she can deal with.
Fiddler/Strings is one of my favorite characters in the whole series. I adore him so much.
For Erikson, please know... there are things that never, ever get tied up by him. Some of them are tied up with Esslemont so I don't know them either. I just don't like Esslemont as much so it's hard for me to read him.
Spoiler free assurances:
The dragon shows up later, this is a cameo.
You do find out about the sea. It's in the next book.
Heboric makes sense eventually.
Book 5 is my favorite!
Your analysis of Apsalar is spot on....
I haven't read the whole series so this isn't a spoiler, because I don't know what it means, but I know just from reading this book and hearing Erikson talk about it that one of his biggest regrets in the series is not showing from Tavor's perspective more early in the series.
Cried all over again thinking about Felisin and Tavore.
Great review, Merphy. I especially enjoyed your thoughts on Karsa, Tavore, and Felisin. It’ll be interesting to see how your feelings on Tavore evolve. I think everyone feels overwhelmed by this series at some point during the first read but it’s definitely worth the effort in the end.
If I ever talk with someone who's reading HoC for thr first time, and they're struggling to understand what Erikson is doing with this new Tavore character - I'll point them directly to this video. When it comes to Tavore, you're asking all the right questions. Great video, especially the segment on Tavore.
Loved hearing your thoughts on this book. Thank you
Hey Merphy! Regarding that Karsa introduction, the story goes that some critic said that the reason that Erikson did not stick with one character's POV for long in his books was because he was not good enough to do so. That Karsa introduction was SE's answer to that. And I think every single Malazan fan had the same journey with Karsa that you did - from horror and contempt to interest and fascination and finally to becoming a fan. Sure, you don't forgive him for what he did earlier but you are still a fan nonetheless.
Regarding, your overall view, HOC is one of my least favourite Malazan books too (along with the first one). I still don't understand that jade statue thing with Heboric. I remember that on my last reread (the 2nd time overall), there were a couple of minutes of clarity where things were falling into place regarding all this jade statue thing, but sadly, like a dream I lost that clarity soon after. I started my second reread a couple of months ago and am on the 2nd book right now and hoping that this time things will fall into place.
Lastly, book 5 is sooo good! It has an awesome prologue and has my own persona favourite duo. They are awesome and ROFL funny!
Midnight Tides is the capstone for the whole series that sets the story on its path toward the conclusion in the last few books. It's also one of the most narratively focused books in the series.
It's incredible how well a character like Karsa can be written.
Fantastic video. I appreciate the shout out! House of Chains is probably the book that I think would be so much better now that I have finished the series. I’m glad you’re enjoying these! And yes, Heboric is a constant WTF lmao
Im so excited for you to see the character duo that is prominent in the next book if you love Eriksons duos
Karsa Orlong quickly became my favorite character in the series after that start.
I don't think that it is as good as book 3, but I'd definitely put it in the same tier as book 2 with 1 below the two of them.
Great review! Some stuff makes sence now and some thung will make sence in the following books. Heboric is however another question that I'm still unsure about at book 10
For me, part of the fun of these books is that Erickson intentionally leaves you only with what the characters know. It's up to you to make hypothesis with what is going on, just as the character need to. Do the characters know what's going on with the jade statues? Of course not. Now you share in their struggle to understand a massively complex world.
Ha! Literally listening to House of Chains when I saw this was posted. Can't wait to watch!
Really neat watching you review these books at the same pace I’ve been reading them. Each one I read makes me need a little break from the series. But I love it.
The thing that I like about malazan is that it is sort of like a history rather than a story in the way I read it. You're trying to figure out what happened, sometimes you get first person perspectives sometimes knowledge is just too old and you can just get fragments to try and price together.
With the sea arriving, from my understanding I'm pretty sure the whirlwind goddess was originally an Imass. The imass's magic and Warren's are more tied to time rather than physical aspects. When Imass use their warrens, has a flavour of an earlier time. Now the whirlwind goddess evolved into what she became and when she died her magic that was tied to the past which for the desert meant that it use to be a sea, made it come back.
I have no idea how well that really fits but it's where my mind took that story, which is half of malazan for me.
And when You reminded Me of how Karsa carried the Spirits of all He had killed, the first thought I had was...Thorfinn!
Erickson has said in some interviews that the most epic characters cannot possibly live up to expectations… therefore, use them less and perhaps show them through an outside view ie…Tavore.
George RR Martin did this with some awesome characters also such as Rob Stark.
BTW Tavore’s story is awesome and her decisions are epic going forward.
Like you I just want more! But THAT is the point (I think).
She is one of my all time favorite female characters in all of literature. Cheers
First of all I apologize for telling that this book is less intense (didn't say it was less dark though) . When I said it in your vlog it was in reference to Memories of Ice and Deadhouse Gates and the huge amount of epic battle scenes and war and killings that are there which is much less in this book. This rather finishes anticlimactically on a personal level. But I forgot to account for the sexual assault part in this book and I am really sorry for that, for setting the wrong expectations.
Regarding Tavore, she has absolutely no idea where Felisin is, even when she is killing her, but Felisin does. That is the greatest tragedy here, that Felisin knows Tavore and is hurting, while Tavore has no idea. Tavore does love Felisin, which is why she separately sent Lostara and Pearl to search for her defying the empress, and she was finally told that Felisin is dead.
Regarding the parts not understanding, the Heboric and Jade Statue stuff will be confusing till late in the series, so you can file that away.
Please don’t apologize! I expect these books to be dark no matter what, so you’re totally fine. And you’re right that it is less intense battle wise! Thank you for you’re thoughts on Tavore, she’s a character I’m excited to get to know better
I had a great time listening to this video.
That quote from eriksen's wife wasn't about felisin....it was after *another* extremely dark scene in a later book . That scene is literally the hardest thing I've ever read. When you get there, you'll see
This series as an anime would absolutely be epic.
House of Chains seems to have been written in no small part as a response by Erickson to what people thought he could not do. "Why does he never stick to one character?" Enter Book 1 being almost entirely Karsa. Who is, if you read SE's essays, an overt deconstruction of the "Noble Savage" archetype.
HoC is definitely the most polarizing of the 10 (possible exception Toll the Hounds. Though that seems to have gone up in reader estimation over the years.) For me, it's firmly in the middle. Memories of Ice and Bonehunters being my 2 favorites.
As to why no Tavore POV. I would suggest it's for a similar reason to why Anomander Rake is (almost) never a PoV. Tavore is, to the eyes of the soldiers, the Avatar of the Empress. She is not allowed to have her own personality. Her own grievances. She speaks for the Throne. And the Empress is remote, inaccessible, inscrutable. Tavore's personal armor is dependant on that distance. To show her PoV would give her a humanity, an identity, that she cannot allow herself even.
At least not yet.
I have read the first 3 and this one up next. Not sure I can continue though. His writing style. Ugh. Appreciate your honest assessment. And no hearing the spoilers won't affect my read IF I ever continue as I seldom know what is happening in even the simplest of scenes. It's THAT convoluted. Good luck on your read through. I fear you'll need it.
Intresting tipbit I learned through Daniel Greene about Malazan as a whole which I think is why you are getting that "Harder to read upon first read but rereadable upon second read" feeling. Malazan origonally apparently was written based on a Dungons and Dragon's Game which they were building the world and putting in these world building elements. They wanted to write the books to build upon that even more so when the campaign ended.
The trickling and alluding to infomation tactic is actually normal for Table Top Roleplaying Games. It's a bit based on the Oral story tradition and you're suppose to have the players explore these details as they play, and sometimes they never find the threads, but sometimes they do find the threads by accident. The Aurthors just found a way to give you that feeling in a format that works for novels.
As for the part that wasn't fun for you to read.... I do apperciate that aurthor took the time to actually talk about the nuiance of it, the emotions, and the conversations. I do enjoy Beserk because it does actually talk about it in a *different* way, where the person is damaged so much by it that it causes that person to lash out in not so great ways, but as you continue on, Guts learns how to converse with others over time. As a survior and as someone processing it, it's hard to have people believe what you are going through mentally and how you see your own body, your own anger, your own self worth. It's why I also apperciate Deerskin, even though I think I struggled because I may not be ready yet, but I want to still back into it because it does actually explain the healing process so well, and how it's a back and fourth between seeing yourself worthy and not worthy of being loved and apperciated. Eventually I am considering starting the Malazan books if I can get through my origonal TBR, but It may take me a while as I have to take baby steps, but I am glad they don't just brush it under the rug.
My boys Trull and Onrack getting zero mention, aww. I get it though, they're new and their part has less overlap with the rest of the book.
And about the jade stuff with Heboric, don't worry, you're not supposed to get it yet. That's a long term payoff thing.
I just finished up HOC 2 days ago (first read through). I agree with a lot of your points, these books can be incredibly uncomfortable to read at times. My one disagreement is about this being too confusing now. It's DEFINITELY confusing, but I am starting to feel like all of the elements are there to start pulling the story out of it.
(HOC SPOLIERS BELOW) I don't fully get the flooded sea element either but there's so many hints to start forming an idea about it.
- There's a warren flooded with water, there we find Trull Sengar, a Tiste Edur (beginning of the book)
- Shaiks Camp is in Raraku, a desert that used to be a sea, throughout the camp are various elements of Shadow worshippers
- Loric, a Tiste Liosan, searches for his father Osric, he breaks into a memory from another time and finds his father (a soletaken dragon) at the center of a large lake (sea?), there we find hounds of darkness, and what seems to be the Eres
- there's an ongoing conflict for the throne of shadow between - Shadowthrone, the Tiste Edur, Tiste Andii, Shaik, the crippled god etc. all are battling in some way for this
- we constantly hear Raraku holds the memories of it's past (osric was in a memory)
- in the final battle, Ghosts (memories), help the malazans defeat Shaik\
- then the water returns to the desert
My guess is something along the lines of... Raraku used to be connected to the Warren of Shadow, there was a sea there. Some big event caused that sea to drain into another warren or several warrens (fragments) and that's what we see in these memories. At the end of the book as Shaik is defeated, the sea is returned to Raraku.
I could be totally wrong lol but I'm running with this hypothesis at the moment.
Great review! Love the character talk. Very interesting thoughts on Tavore and Felisin.
I was devastated with how Felisin’s story played out in this book as well. I was also desperate to get into Tavore’s head and understand her, to see some follow up on what happened. I felt I just could not be satisfied with how things played out otherwise. Thusly, I was obsessed with Tavore going forward, and read as intently as I could when she was on page and it led to an immensely engaging reading experience. I hope it’s the same for you! She’s a tough nut to crack, but the process of trying to was one of my favorite parts of these books.
Pretty sure House of Chains is a challenge for all Malazan readers lol The first portion with Karsa absolutely disgusted me and I almost quit reading, but pushing through was worth it. I look forward to your review of Midnight Tides!
Your criticisms are Legitimate. When I read it, I had some issues keeping things straight as well. Karsa has become one of my favorite characters of the series. Along with Fiddler. You are right in that Midnight Tides is different from the first four, since we will be seeing brand new characters. I've been anxious to see your review of House of Chains. Great video as always.
I'm a little late with this, but the dragon, alongside the Forkrul released by Karsa near the beginning are two of the longest 'long games' of the entire series. Don't worry!
i read it as it was published (yes I'm that old ) so I was forced to have a big break between the books I thinks that short break is better ( a month )
And don't worry on things you don"t understand the answer will come in the end , not all off the answer occurs but most off them
House of Chains was my least favourite as well, and it just went up from there. Looking back, it has the most lore and I think I will absolutely adore it on reread.
You don't need to understand much of the dragon, just that it's there and put a pin in it, it will become relevant in later books.
Frankly, the jade statues, the flooded land, all of these will get explained later (some sooner and some... well, later) and it will feel so satisfying!
Can confirm it's great on rereads (though I liked it just fine; maybe a bit bewildered by Felisin/Tavore at the end, took me a while to get it...)
Heads up for Midnight tides: It's like reading Gardens of the moon for the first time. However, the next books are way easier because it's the continuation from the three previous story arcs
I just finished book 4 as well. You are not alone!❤❤❤😂😂😂
That was such an interesting read, to me. I loved SO MUCH about it, but I also had a lot of things just not paying off yet. And I know a lot of it isn't meant to pay off, but they took a pretty sizeable chunk of the book anyway, so it was kinda annoying when it jumped from a perspective I was really into to one of those purely setups. Still, I was intrigued by them and am following them closely, so that was not nearly as much a problem as it might read from the way I worded it. It's just that I hadn't felt that as much in the previous books.
Karsa is awesome, though. Like, I was finding him pretty terrible in the beginning (in a good way, not as in "bad character"), but I actually love him, now. Like, it's not even that I kinda like him - I love him. Fiddler really got into my heart as well. Specially with the gesture of turning the omen of the child leading the army to their deaths. Quick Ben, though, went very quickly (pun not intended) from my number 1 character to a (still undecided) much lower spot. That Lostara flashback was not one I wanted Quick Ben to have been a part of, in that way. I was really disappointed in him. I was like "oh, I recognize Delat, Quick Ben is the one that dismantled Bidithal's Rashan cult!" and then "wait, is this really implying what I think it's implying?" and, yeah, I guess it was. Which is not cool.
And 100% agreed on Tavore. I'm very intrigued by her (and by Grub, lol).
And YES, seeing Bidithal get it from Karsa and in the way he did was PERFECT. I was so happy reading that. Like, just perfect.
That quote from his wife is just incredible, too. I loved it very much.
Also, I'll also be watching that video from the Fantasy Nuttwork. I don't have that many problems with it, but the more appreciation the better anyway, right? I really want to read Midnight Tides immediately, though. I won't, because I need some days to end processing House of Chains and I still need to read The Healthy Dead (following the wiki's suggested reading order), but I'm very excited. For the wrong reason, probably: I want to get to Night of Knives (the first Esslemont) and I want to get to The Bonehunters, because I noticed an epigraph from _The Bonehunters_ in Deadhouse Gates about Coltaine's Chain of Dogs and I've been dying to know what they are since then, lmao.
ALSO ALSO, I'm pretty sure Traveller was Dassem Ultor, which was really fun. And the Keeper was interesting, too (but this one we saw first and then heard about later, so the AHA came in the reversed order)
Karsa is a great character.
Looking forward to when you get to midnight tides. Erikson writes pairs of characters so well and imo book 5 introduces the best pair.
RE the sea flooding into the desert: the sea is the desert, least that's how I understood it from my first read (on my second now). Because with the death of the Whirlwind goddess Ruraku can finally live again.
This is my favorite series of all time and I still have trouble telling whats happening sometimes
Great review! Loved your thoughts. In terms of "understanding" and things "clicking into place", in my experience I didn't start seeing the puzzle pieces coming together until like book 7. Even now, on book 9, I still have questions about things introduced in this book hahah. Also I love your observation about Erikson's ability to write compelling duos! Trull and Onrack were a highlight for me for sure. I hope you enjoy Midnight Tides! It's definitely on the top of my personal pile.
We really have no business liking Karsa but at the same time eagerly await for him to show up again and in some ways root for him.
As for intentionally holding back, well yes. All authors do this. If Erickson explained everything that is going on while it happened they would be insanely long and would not have the same impact. A lot is foreshadowed, you just don't kniw what was until the events actually happen. But the pieces on the board are moving and gaining momentum.
And yeah, nobody understands a lot of Heboric and sometimes takes you out of the moment.
AP does do a close reading of the final duel that makes it seem even more intense and personal.
It was very emotional ride but I loved it
haha, yes, fiddler. wait for the bonehunters.
While it is one of the more challenging of the Malazan books there is still so much to like in House of Chains. The character arc for Karsa is an achievement in itself, considering how unlikeable he is at the beginning. But I especially loved the scenes on the island, where we get to see Cotillion do some work, and we get the introduction of Traveler. So many storylines start falling into place, and now you get to shift perspective again and read Midnight Tides. More amazing characters to come. Hope you enjoy it.
30% into this one and as always with Erickson, I have no clue what is going on whatsoever. My biggest complaint about whole series.
Karsa is my favorite next to Kruppe.
you guys and gals should listen to the audio books. the narrators do an amazing job bringing all the characters we all love to life! karsa is hilarious in the bonhunters which is what i am listening to right now. i plan to re read all ten books of course. all hail to karsa!!!!!!
Next book is my absolute favourite(besides maybe book 10). I totally relate to book 4 being your least favourite but at least it gets better on reread
Also you are spot on about Tavore. She is probably the best character in the series
Heboric will not make sense until literally the last book so don't worry about him that much! The dragon (I assume you're talking about the Otataral Dragon that Pearl and Yostara Yil find? Is also something just being set up. Treat it as just a cool landmark random encounter they find.
Book 5 is definitely quite different, and also one of my favourites. There's another great duo you'll love there. ;) My absolute favourite is book 6, and book 7 is close too so you're in for a treat!
Thank you. Love you. Awesome! :D
WITNESS ! ! !
Karsa's arc is wild. I really didn't like him in the beginning but he has become one of my favorite characters.
It is a brutal world inhabited by many who are indifferent to that brutality and a few who are driven by compassion to fight against that brutality.
Understanding that is understanding the series. Everything else is just the mechanics. Most of which you will understand by the end🤣. Then a little bit more on a reread etc..
Tbh it is good to use the excellent wiki to keep track of the 500 odd pov characters
I waited sooooo long for this 😭
Hi, it is nice to hear from you and malazan. You can start book 5, it is less hard than House of Chains. I think. I remember that I was constantly laughing with that one. Even if there are some amazing/hard things around. But not like the Felising kind.
I've read the entire series three times and still don't understand half of Heboric's shenanigans...
Also, I didn't even like Felisin at all, but her words "Why did you not love me when I loved you?" touch me deeply on each read; a perfect ending to her story arc and one of the best moments of the series.
Ugh, I’m glad someone enjoyed it because I HATED it. It feels like her character just existed to be abused and killed. She had barely any agency in anything she did, and does unceremoniously in the most tragically ironic and unsatisfying way possible, never knowing her sister loved her. I get that it’s grimdark but fuck man, I hoped she’d get *some* solace or closure or *something*. Having her go out like that after all she went through just feels bad
I see it, vinland s2 and karsa's journey. I see it
You’re so on point here! And I wanted to hyper-focus on the grim dark genre, in particular, because it’s a genre that I love and hate at the same time. Why can’t we see other struggles in these world that aren’t surrounded around explicitly torturing women (and children)?!?! It’s just always the same thing regurgitated over and over again often used for shock value, I mean women struggle with hundreds of other problems in this world. And I mean I understand the grim dark sub-category, trust me I do, but I want to see some variety out there… Take for example Slasher movies that constantly show naked women running from the perpetrator and then being gruesomely stabbed, why aren’t there more naked men running for their lives in the same way 🤔 It’s just irritating sometimes to see the same thing over and over again…
Hi! This is a friendly neighbourhood reminder that Malazan is not Grimdark :) Cheers, and good reading!
@@joshuasmith8695 That’s true (though I haven’t read it yet), the reason why I hyper-focused on Grimdark is because Merphy mentioned Grimdark in the video and at the time I just felt the need to expand on it 😂
So this ended up being my favorite book so far in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series.
I really do not know why I found it a good read since the story kind of gets blurry after the halfway point.
SPOILERS!!! and long comment
The book starting with Karsa was interesting, but his heinous acts were disturbing. Although, his story and the Teblor culture were very clear to follow and did add a bit more to an already complicated world.
Eventually, the book gets to Tavore and the troops she commands for the sort of re-taking of the seven cities. Or at least that is the goal. Gamet showing up again was a surprised since I got the impression he was perhaps a bit too old to be in a military commanding role. Strings was nice to see again.
Then the book gets to the returning Crokus/Cutter and Sorry/Apsalar. Interesting that Apsalar got to her home with her dad, and then her dad died. Then they do some assassin jobs and then eventually go on a mission from Cotillion. I am ultimately confused on what the Shadowthrone plan was. In the end Apsalar disappears and Cutter got a new mission (or that was the goal idk).
Kalam also is in the book and does what he does best. Travel around and do some things. Also sent by Cotillion, and the goal probably was to investigate the whirlwind to confirm something for the Shadowthrone. I really do not know if it was worth it for the Shadowthrone since the whirlwind seems to get disbanded. Was Quick Ben part of the plan too? idk
Sha'ik Felisin and her Whirlwind army of the Apocalypse were definitely an interesting element of the book. Since all the factions were a bit disjointed, it was little hard to follow what was going on. How that Army got dealt with and Felisin's demise was a surprise to read.
I did not really notice the lack of emotion or thought from Tavore, I assume it might be cause an adjunct has to work as the will of the Empress. So, I thought the lacking emotions was just something of her training or an expectation.
Trull and Onrack had a nice story till the end. I knew they were going to the "first throne" or stopping someone from reaching it towards the end of the book, but they encountered something and I was confused in the epilogue.
I do expect at this point to get confused, so it is not so off putting at this point in the series. I see this series at this point as a world with many mysteries to discover and hopefully find the truth about. Although, finishing a book with more questions than answers can in itself be satisfying to think about.
Hood's Balls, House of Chains is a complicated book.
I genuinely liked this book a lot, but I am SO UPSET about the ending with Felisin (Paran). She went through so much, had her agency stripped away at every turn, and at the very end loses all the boons she got and faces the most tragic fate against her sister imaginable. She deserved a better end, some sort of solace, something. It was a beautiful tragedy and I hate it so much. And to clarify, I am NOT saying it’s bad, I’m just saying I hate it and I’m sad
Can anyone explain to me what happened to Calm? She said shed be there when Karsa was going to unite the people but then... nothing. I feel like I missed a whole lot there.
Heboric doesn't know what is going on with him either.... so you likely aren't feeling anything there that you shouldn't. His arc is one of the more difficult to wrap your head around though and you'll likely still have questions once the series is over.
If you think he’s good at writing duos now, wait until Midnight Tides…best duo of all time gets introduced there.
Felisin stan army!!! She’s my girl
Book 4 was my least favourite in the series up till now (just finished book eight). Book 3 remained my favourite till then, but was solidly defeated by book 5. I cannot wait for your review of that one!
Same dude. It's my least favorite but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were the most important of the series. But there were parts in it that I definitely enjoyed. Karsa's story being one of them. The next two books are my favorite so far so get excited.
These big books are daunting. Is an audiobook version available for this series?
This series is much more daunting and difficult in audiobook because these are so very dense. There will be times when you need to reread a para or a section, or sometimes go back few pages and chapters to read something again. Thats very difficult in audiobooks. You can use the audiobooks as supplementary to normal reading where you listen to it while you read, but solely audiobook will be more difficult.