MotoGP should let the teams manage their own ECU software again. It's obvious that the Japanese aren't big on aero while the Europeans are. MotoGP should let them diverge from here and let the Japanese use electronics to go faster and let the Europeans use aero to go faster and then the fans will see what's better.
Sorry to bring the news, but your explanation as to why motogp riders lean (especially the body position which you specifically refer to) is basically wrong. Of course you need to lean the rider-Bike package in order to turn the bike. But the body position has a completely different reason. Because technically you can lean your body out of the corner, it is not physically neccessary to lean your body into the corner. Basically the Bike has a limited lean angle which results in a limited corner speed. In order to increase corner speed you need to move the center of mass into the inside of the corner without increasing the lean angle of the bike. Thats what you explained but you explained that it is neccessary to lean the body but its just optional. But thats not it at all. Tire wear and grip is also taken into consideration of the body position because when you lean your body, the bike doesnt need to have as much lean angle which results in a bigger contact patch of the tire, due to that more grip is available, the tire slips less and it has less wear. Also the bike doesnt wheelie as much due to a lower center of mass. There are probably even more benefits of leaning the body into the corner but i think these are the most important ones.
Here is another. On the side of the tyre the suspension can't work as well so if you move your body over as far as you can, due to the change in centre of mass, the bike isn't required to lean as far for a given cornering speed... and being a bit more upright, the suspension has more chance of coping with any mid corner bumps.
EXACTLY. I have raced AMA and WERA Superbike for five years. The new crop of tires are beyond amazing. ALSO, once race tires cool down, they are no good greasy trash. Do not use race rated tires on the street.
I think riders need to counter lean in the turns to counter the forces being generated by the lean. Motocross/Supercross riders don't lean with the bike in turns because they'd fall off. The only reason why sport bikes riders are able to lean with the bike is the tires have a lot of grip but Mick Doohan rode in a counter lean type of riding and he was a 5 time World Champ. Also, if you look at those motorcycle police demonstrations where they're on a tight obstacle course, those riders are counter leaning on every turn. If leaning with the bike generated faster times, then the police riders would do it.
@PeTroL420 Huge difference between a police motorcycle and a sport or MotoGP bike.... both seeking different things and at different speeds. You seriously think MotoGP riders are below police in terms of skill/ability and speed?
5:24 I was right there at Honda corner when Cudlin got shot into orbit. Was blagging an entry into the VIP tent. I gave myself away by shouting "F ME" as I was the only person actually watching the bikes.
Uhhh…. The answer is simple. Tires. Racers only ask for the maximum amount of lean angle and traction. Tires have improved immensely. Changes in riding style is directly related to grip.
f1 had some of its most sophisticated electronic systems in 1994 with the williams f1 teams, active suspension, traction control, the whole lot. It got banned pretty quickly and things got standardized from then on.
Here is a question I doubt you can really answer. WHY arent motorcycle engineers employing POWER STEERING? I think it is being dabbled with in motocross but I mean accross the board including motogp (which I imagine is currently outlawed right now?) For one thing there lots of crashes where the front "tucks" but what if that were electronically impossible? What if tires could be WAY fatter than they currenly are without giving up ANY flickability? Another way to ask that "what if contact patches were insanely increased on bikes with none of the downsides associated with that? (well weight would be a downside as bigger is heavier)....I just am really surprised this still is not the latest thing! If as succsessful as I imagine it could be? It would obsolete all the current and used bikes for anyone demanding the maximum....which I mean would suck for anyone sitting on a bunch of obsoletel inventory or anyone that just bought the latest and greatest but it would not be the first time it happened! Like the suspension wars of the 70s that had many people weeping
Body position and the Doctor's Dangle can be used to produced drag, which slows the bike without needed tyre friction. ditto - next. Ah yes - counter-steering. Ever wondered why learning to ride a pushbike is so unintuitive? It's the way the bike tips into the corner. For a racing motorcyclist counter-steering is similar but compounded by speed and a million other nuances. Worth a follow-up video, try it.
Yep they do it to help support the motorcycle in the corner. Because there is not much contact patch on the side of the tires when going through the corners at those extreme speeds and lean angles. Ex super bike racer back in the mid 1990s. Hello 👋 lol remember Colin Edward’s with Yamaha and Scott Russel for Kawasaki? Well that was my time when I raced. Those were the days of raw power and no traction control, no ABS braking. Just you and the bike that you trusted someone to tune your bike for you that you paid for or just yourself setting up the suspension, brakes and tires. more importantly is your own skills and experience that will minimize your injuries and incidents on the track but of course you can’t predict everything especially in a tight one two three race with 2 laps to go! Things happen fast.
Lean angle depends on where rotating mass concentrated + mechanical grip which comes from forces like chain pull and surface tension ie the ground and the tyres.
I race dirt bikes on the ice, we lean over our bikes to similar lean angles but we are on top of the bike. I like riding my KTM more than my dad’s Honda because it has an aluminum frame that is much stiffer so it doesn’t handle as well went dragging the foot peg.
Most lowside are created by rear tire grip pushing the front out. Old bmw R80 really danced around corners having a plastic band frame. Do never dangerous or uncontrollable. K100 first series on the other hand had little flex but would try to kick you off mid corner pushing it. Yes a system must have some flex. But I think it's more for cadance then real flex. And if you want to see real crazy lean angles go look up iceracing.
lots of sensationalized lines in this video like 2:53 "64 degrees of lesn angle regularly" then follows up with "but sometimes MUCH more" citing Marc Marquez doing 66 degrees...lol how is 66 degrees "MUCH more" than the 64 degrees achieved regularly? kinda gets annoying,...I mean it is so common trying to make things sound more dramatic but it gets pretty old
Quite a few grammar errors I 100% admit. Was a late one editing it hah! I always look at it from the point of going from say 50-52 degrees of lean angle is easy as your within the limit of the bike. Going from 64 to 66 degrees is a much more impressive achievement because it's much closer if not past the limiti
The mathematics of lean and grip is simple, the force on the tyres acts through the centre of gravity and the grip is directly related to the C of G. In other words, if the rider stays low on the seat, the polar moment of intertia makes it quicker to alternate between left and right hand turns. There will however, be no change in the grip from whatever position the rider takes, and that means that ninety nine percent of the riders antics on the seat is showmanship, nothing more and nothing less. Just watch the Isle of Man TT races and see who is fastest around the hundreds of bends, it is those who know that if they fall off the bike, they will die. Short circuit racing is all about television images, and showmanship which is why this subject is discussed and why almost NONE of the showmen riders ever race in the Isle of Man, to them motorcycle racing is a business NOT a sport, and their business model is to keep the showmanship going for the viewers.
you are the one smoking. until mid 2010's , races were battled by 2 dudes at best. same for championships. after that, it was much more competitive. if you take laptimes form last to 1st, the gap is tighter then ever.
@@jiboo6850Wow, ducatista arrived :D Yes :D there is lap times and then there is race time as a hole. Everyone is like 1 minute behind ducatis. That is really competetive. Look at the standings for GP24 races and see who the winners are. 1-8 th ducati s in average. If that is by you competition, alright :D
Moto GP frames have no flex bro and the riders mostly come from Moto 2. Super bike riders find it virtually impossible to brake into MotoGP as the bikes are very unstable in MotoGP. Moto GP uses Micheline which is a much harder compound then SBK using Pirelli. SBK leans less as more flex in the frame then MotoGP.
MotoGP bikes are now around 330 hp.. This is part of the reason for the new rule for 2027 of reducing the engine maximum size down from 1,000 cc to 850 cc. Presently the bikes are hitting 355 kph (220 mph) on some track straight stretches.
no way they extract that much power with so little fuel tank. they are more around 280/300 hp. many specialists agreed on this. because nobody knows the exact numbers. but some specialists in physics and calcul of power over distance. they count the wind, everything! and they can give a range of power attainable with this much fuel in the tank. because there's a roof at around 51/52% efficency in the engine world. speed record is 368 kph at Mugello in 2017 or 18 i can't remember exactly.
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I recently learned the side fairings of the bikes are even designed with ground effect when leaning in mind!
MotoGP should let the teams manage their own ECU software again. It's obvious that the Japanese aren't big on aero while the Europeans are. MotoGP should let them diverge from here and let the Japanese use electronics to go faster and let the Europeans use aero to go faster and then the fans will see what's better.
I think there should be no regulations and see what happens. Like build whatever the hell you want and go fast. That’ll be fun to see.
Well well we'll, this brings back in 2000s when ducati has bad ecu and have good aero and now it's the other way around
Sorry to bring the news, but your explanation as to why motogp riders lean (especially the body position which you specifically refer to) is basically wrong.
Of course you need to lean the rider-Bike package in order to turn the bike. But the body position has a completely different reason. Because technically you can lean your body out of the corner, it is not physically neccessary to lean your body into the corner.
Basically the Bike has a limited lean angle which results in a limited corner speed. In order to increase corner speed you need to move the center of mass into the inside of the corner without increasing the lean angle of the bike. Thats what you explained but you explained that it is neccessary to lean the body but its just optional.
But thats not it at all. Tire wear and grip is also taken into consideration of the body position because when you lean your body, the bike doesnt need to have as much lean angle which results in a bigger contact patch of the tire, due to that more grip is available, the tire slips less and it has less wear. Also the bike doesnt wheelie as much due to a lower center of mass.
There are probably even more benefits of leaning the body into the corner but i think these are the most important ones.
Bro, He was specifically talking about the engineering of the bike.
Explain to me how he didn’t explain the engineering.
Here is another. On the side of the tyre the suspension can't work as well so if you move your body over as far as you can, due to the change in centre of mass, the bike isn't required to lean as far for a given cornering speed... and being a bit more upright, the suspension has more chance of coping with any mid corner bumps.
EXACTLY.
I have raced AMA and WERA Superbike for five years.
The new crop of tires are beyond amazing.
ALSO, once race tires cool down, they are no good greasy trash.
Do not use race rated tires on the street.
I think riders need to counter lean in the turns to counter the forces being generated by the lean. Motocross/Supercross riders don't lean with the bike in turns because they'd fall off. The only reason why sport bikes riders are able to lean with the bike is the tires have a lot of grip but Mick Doohan rode in a counter lean type of riding and he was a 5 time World Champ.
Also, if you look at those motorcycle police demonstrations where they're on a tight obstacle course, those riders are counter leaning on every turn. If leaning with the bike generated faster times, then the police riders would do it.
@PeTroL420 Huge difference between a police motorcycle and a sport or MotoGP bike.... both seeking different things and at different speeds.
You seriously think MotoGP riders are below police in terms of skill/ability and speed?
Informative and well-presented!
Nice content man !
Thanks Michael, appreciate it :)
these motogp bikes also seems to have slightly longer wheelbases compared to public sports and superbikes apart from the totally different appearence
5:24 I was right there at Honda corner when Cudlin got shot into orbit. Was blagging an entry into the VIP tent.
I gave myself away by shouting "F ME" as I was the only person actually watching the bikes.
Uhhh…. The answer is simple. Tires. Racers only ask for the maximum amount of lean angle and traction. Tires have improved immensely. Changes in riding style is directly related to grip.
f1 had some of its most sophisticated electronic systems in 1994 with the williams f1 teams, active suspension, traction control, the whole lot. It got banned pretty quickly and things got standardized from then on.
Very Informative Content.
Well done 👍
New race slicks feel like bubble gum under you fingernail if you poke your finger into them
Yes, no one seems to talk about how sticky the new Pirelli is in for eg moto3 , 5/5 circuit records broken.
Race slicks have always been sticky. There have been improvements in the compound.
@@jkim6200 like new , un heat cycled race slicks
Funny that a clip of Mick Doohan is shown . He used an exaggerated lean out (upper body) position during the Superbike and 500cc days.
What game clip are used in the video?
Here is a question I doubt you can really answer. WHY arent motorcycle engineers employing POWER STEERING? I think it is being dabbled with in motocross but I mean accross the board including motogp (which I imagine is currently outlawed right now?) For one thing there lots of crashes where the front "tucks" but what if that were electronically impossible? What if tires could be WAY fatter than they currenly are without giving up ANY flickability? Another way to ask that "what if contact patches were insanely increased on bikes with none of the downsides associated with that? (well weight would be a downside as bigger is heavier)....I just am really surprised this still is not the latest thing! If as succsessful as I imagine it could be? It would obsolete all the current and used bikes for anyone demanding the maximum....which I mean would suck for anyone sitting on a bunch of obsoletel inventory or anyone that just bought the latest and greatest but it would not be the first time it happened! Like the suspension wars of the 70s that had many people weeping
Yamaha and honda are playing with their offroad factory program.
Great informative channel just subscribed...
Body position and the Doctor's Dangle can be used to produced drag, which slows the bike without needed tyre friction. ditto - next.
Ah yes - counter-steering. Ever wondered why learning to ride a pushbike is so unintuitive? It's the way the bike tips into the corner. For a racing motorcyclist counter-steering is similar but compounded by speed and a million other nuances. Worth a follow-up video, try it.
Yep they do it to help support the motorcycle in the corner. Because there is not much contact patch on the side of the tires when going through the corners at those extreme speeds and lean angles. Ex super bike racer back in the mid 1990s. Hello 👋 lol remember Colin Edward’s with Yamaha and Scott Russel for Kawasaki? Well that was my time when I raced. Those were the days of raw power and no traction control, no ABS braking. Just you and the bike that you trusted someone to tune your bike for you that you paid for or just yourself setting up the suspension, brakes and tires. more importantly is your own skills and experience that will minimize your injuries and incidents on the track but of course you can’t predict everything especially in a tight one two three race with 2 laps to go! Things happen fast.
Lean angle depends on where rotating mass concentrated + mechanical grip which comes from forces like chain pull and surface tension ie the ground and the tyres.
You can get a pretty nasty highside from adding to much throttle when having to much angle at the exit of a corner 😅
The Race track owners are very please that Jorge and Fabio can clean their tracks so well after every race for them with their leathers!😆😆
I race dirt bikes on the ice, we lean over our bikes to similar lean angles but we are on top of the bike. I like riding my KTM more than my dad’s Honda because it has an aluminum frame that is much stiffer so it doesn’t handle as well went dragging the foot peg.
Most lowside are created by rear tire grip pushing the front out.
Old bmw R80 really danced around corners having a plastic band frame. Do never dangerous or uncontrollable.
K100 first series on the other hand had little flex but would try to kick you off mid corner pushing it.
Yes a system must have some flex. But I think it's more for cadance then real flex.
And if you want to see real crazy lean angles go look up iceracing.
I really like your content. But I think you left out how hard motogp slicks are when cold, and only get grippy in a very high temperature range.
Wow❤ best sport on the planet
lots of sensationalized lines in this video like 2:53 "64 degrees of lesn angle regularly" then follows up with "but sometimes MUCH more" citing Marc Marquez doing 66 degrees...lol how is 66 degrees "MUCH more" than the 64 degrees achieved regularly? kinda gets annoying,...I mean it is so common trying to make things sound more dramatic but it gets pretty old
Quite a few grammar errors I 100% admit. Was a late one editing it hah!
I always look at it from the point of going from say 50-52 degrees of lean angle is easy as your within the limit of the bike. Going from 64 to 66 degrees is a much more impressive achievement because it's much closer if not past the limiti
The mathematics of lean and grip is simple, the force on the tyres acts through the centre of gravity and the grip is directly related to the C of G. In other words, if the rider stays low on the seat, the polar moment of intertia makes it quicker to alternate between left and right hand turns. There will however, be no change in the grip from whatever position the rider takes, and that means that ninety nine percent of the riders antics on the seat is showmanship, nothing more and nothing less. Just watch the Isle of Man TT races and see who is fastest around the hundreds of bends, it is those who know that if they fall off the bike, they will die. Short circuit racing is all about television images, and showmanship which is why this subject is discussed and why almost NONE of the showmen riders ever race in the Isle of Man, to them motorcycle racing is a business NOT a sport, and their business model is to keep the showmanship going for the viewers.
I max out at 48 degrees and even that feels insane. 64?!?!? That’s just bonkers
Engineered flex, google yzr m1 frame rigidity. Btw it can be retrofitted into older bikes ...
8:56 What? the bikes are closer than ever? WTF you smoking my dude?
Nonsense, don t listen to this guy.
there are 8 bikes which are close to each other 😂
you are the one smoking. until mid 2010's , races were battled by 2 dudes at best. same for championships. after that, it was much more competitive. if you take laptimes form last to 1st, the gap is tighter then ever.
@@jiboo6850Wow, ducatista arrived :D
Yes :D there is lap times and then there is race time as a hole.
Everyone is like 1 minute behind ducatis. That is really competetive. Look at the standings for GP24 races and see who the winners are. 1-8 th ducati s in average.
If that is by you competition, alright :D
you have to trust the bike
Moto GP frames have no flex bro and the riders mostly come from Moto 2. Super bike riders find it virtually impossible to brake into MotoGP as the bikes are very unstable in MotoGP. Moto GP uses Micheline which is a much harder compound then SBK using Pirelli. SBK leans less as more flex in the frame then MotoGP.
MotoGP bikes are now around 330 hp.. This is part of the reason for the new rule for 2027 of reducing the engine maximum size down from 1,000 cc to 850 cc.
Presently the bikes are hitting 355 kph (220 mph) on some track straight stretches.
no way they extract that much power with so little fuel tank. they are more around 280/300 hp. many specialists agreed on this. because nobody knows the exact numbers. but some specialists in physics and calcul of power over distance. they count the wind, everything! and they can give a range of power attainable with this much fuel in the tank. because there's a roof at around 51/52% efficency in the engine world.
speed record is 368 kph at Mugello in 2017 or 18 i can't remember exactly.
With all this technology, couldn’t they just add a couple more wheels?
Continue bike.
They wouldn't fall off at "every" corner, they would only fall off on the first corner. Just sayin'.
The quick zoom in and out while you are talking is really annoying.