Awesome!! Edit: For reasons I can't figure out your link is not displaying here, but it probably will if I post it as the channel owner ( ruclips.net/video/-5t-zr2eeVo/видео.html ). For those who are interested, click on over for some amazing 260 bpm upstroke riffing!
I'm a mechanical engineer and a guitar player. I find this forensic approach to guitar techniques so AWESOME! I really appreciate the work that must go into these. ❤
@@helio1055 hey, first job was a design consultant to the construction industry, mechanical and electrical department, Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems for buildings. I didn't really enjoy that too much. Then I transferred to a Diesel engine test facility. R&D for the fuel injection systems for truck and tractor engines. I dunno what capping is, I'm probably too old.
Exemplary work as usual, Troy. Thanks so much for giving props to Chuck Schuldiner! I played with Chuck in Death and it was a great honor to do so. Nice to see him getting recognition here for his blazing picking technique. I tend to think of the reverse dart thrower motion as the same as using a salt or pepper shaker. Please correct me if I'm wrong haha.Cheers \m/
Awesome!! Man you played on a true classic. Chuck is a pioneer. I actually had to do a little digging to make sure I got the pronunciation right. I discovered that not knowing how to pronounce "Schuldiner" is pretty common.
huh, I was doing reverse dart the entire time and didn't even realize it...that's awesome. Its always what was more comfortable for me over the past 33 years. Excellent video as always!
Awesome you included Archspire!! Dean Lamb is one of the main guys that comes to mind for me reverse dart throwing. He’s the only reason I’ve tried to switch to it, no luck yet, but still trying.
Are you sure you're not already doing it? Andy Wood, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Andy James, and many more or all reverse dart players. They're not using "tall mouse" form but there's plenty of footage of McLaughlin blazing at 220bpm+. So "small mouse" is still a very capable motion.
Troy can you please do the video from the players perspective ie view of hand but from the players eye? It's great to see the string axis and rotation at string height but it doesn't really relate to the players view. We need to see the action as you would looking at our strings with the guitar on our body. I really think this would help more.
Paul Gilbert has a great video from "Paul's Eye View" with lots of discussion of up and down escape motions, although he doesn't call them by those names, but you can see it the way he does...so valuable!!! ruclips.net/video/Q67YOVyqOYc/видео.html
What we noticed originally was the concept of escape motion, where some players make the pick appear it is going up in the air. But we actually didn't know much about all the different ways the motions are accomplished, i.e. which joints and arm positions and pick grips and so on. That was a very complicated puzzle to piece out but we have much, much more knowledge of that know. And also how to teach things, which is the important part for most of us who just want to make music.
@@troygrady well I think you do a great justice to the many nuances involved, and your resources are ones for the guitar history books! PSP and CtC really opened my eyes to technique and position, and this video did it again by literally inverting how I perceived which muscles are working on the desired motion
Alternate picking speed and especially comfort have increased tremendously thanks to this. Just thinking about the upstroke as mentioned around min. 16 did the trick. not sure how I can implement this for my downstrokes, but will try later.
I can't believe how a high level, top tier, super instructional and enlightening video has only 145k views (when this comment was made)!! This is a life changing video, thank you so much Troy Grady! You changed my playing and I bet you also changed the playing of many guitar players! I'm hitting the share button, and everyone should also!
Man, I can't even tell you how much this helped me. Finally, for the first time in several years, that awkward passion for learning guitar appeared again. Can't believe this information is free, you obviously deserve much more views. And also I definitely can see how you honestly want to share your team's discoveries with people, it really warms the soul XD.
OMG finally! I've been playing 15 years now and never could get this 220 bpm downstrokes like Hetfiled does Thanks, this is pure magic through science You guys are the best 🥰
ngl i didn´t quite get all of that. but what i did get out of this video is that fast "knocking on a door" motion you can do in the air, do that on the guitar. and if the motion seems a bit large, don´t worry about it. and after a few minutes of trying that mindset, fast down strokes do feel quite a bit easier and less tense.
That's it! Great summary. The other hint is that to do it on a guitar, you don't want to come straight down and "knock" on the strings. You want to come at it a little from the side, so you may have to rotate your arm position a little like you do when using an ergonomic mouse. And this may require using a different pick grip to achieve that arm position while still being able to reach the strings comfortably with the right attack.
Thank you, that was pretty interesting! It'll serve me to guess why I can play quite fast when standing and wearing the guitar a bit lower than when sitting down, when my arms are otherwise feeling cramped. Your work is a blessing! Those first videos on pick slanting meant an immediate leap for me, after years of struggling jumping strings, not being able to figure out on my own how easy it actually was. Although he main «wisdom» I gained wasn't the technique itself, but the thought process to find out the «code». Later on I even took beginner students, and observing their mechanics while fixing them as needed (I didn't want to bomb them with rules on «position correctness») made me learn much more than just observing myself.
Amazing thing. I've been doing the reverse Dart thrower picking with a typical pick grip forever. My thumb doesn't bend backwards so I've adapted. At first I couldn't figure out why both motions where the same speed with your way and mine.After filming my hand and comparing, It's because I've always done it. Cheers for putting a name to the technique.
We drew on a number of research papers for this. What is interesting is that the performance question (i.e. speed and endurance) hasn't really been investigated by science yet. These motions are mainly studied for their role in rehabilitation of joint injuries, where doctors are looking for motions which are very common because they can be used in many everyday activities like pouring, tapping, etc. They are less concerned with breaking speed records, even though the speed aspect can be a clue to how the joint motions work and why they evolved - and those questions *would* probably be of interest to researchers.
@@troygrady I mean this is a great topic for phd research in Berkeley university. This is the whole new level of playing, ur pickslanting videos for example completely changed the way I play. And it’s really more than just - practice 24/7 and u will become a great player
HOLY SHIT this made my downpicking speed go from a max of 85 bpm (where i got tired) to 95 bpm and sometimes higher depending on what i play, and my arm feels less exhausted! In one day! Thank you very much, this has greatly improved my picking!
I feel like Troy is listening to me through my phone. I’ve been learning corridor of chameleons by Meshuggah and had to switch to this very technique. Then I see this video in my recommended. Funny timing! You rock, Troy
If you're intuitive enough to somehow know that these form adjustments work, then you are among the few, the proud. I was never that smart back in the day. I had to "figure out" all these things!
My dad just retired recently. As a guitar player he asked me if i would teach him some guitar to reclaim an old goal of his now that he has free time. I will definitely be showing him this and other videos that demystify certain things that lurk beneath that surface level that most players struggle with at first and need to discover through feel for themselves. I play more extreme stuff and have since i was 15 and a reverse dart thrower style is what i landed on for picking speek 17 years ago through necessity, trial, and error. My dad wont ve needing this type of speed, but at his age he will need to be exerting his effort efficiently to avoid overuse injuries while learning, staying healthy and injury free is the only way to reach a goal like that in a timely manner. Cheers Troy and co.
That is a fantastic observation! It's not really that the motions are fast - it's that they're fast *because* they're efficient and easy. Everything below those speeds just gets even easier.
You're such an asset to the guitar community, Troy. This confirms something I have suspected for a while, I notice way less tension when I do the 3 finger grip. I actually do it with 2 fingers but my index finger is in the same position (slightly more centered on the pick) as it would be in the 3 finger version, kinda pointing at the guitar, not curled up. After watching your video here I noticed the method I described also allows for that slight forearm rotation.
@@troygrady It's a waste of time with respect to playing music. Firstly it's a tautology, since none of the mugs singing your praises can play darts telling them it's a dart playing motion is as pointless as telling aspiring dart players to move like they're picking a guitar. Secondly none of them do anything else they do by fretting about which anatomically named parts of their body move or don't move - if that was required then 1 year olds wouldn't be learning how to walk we'd have to wait until they were older. Thirdly if all the people singing your praises could actually play the guitar to a high technical standard then there's bazillions of incredible virtuoso musicians by now and yet there aren't any. Odd. Lastly, and the biggest clue this is a waste of time : the only interesting guitar players to come out in the past decade that are playing music can't even use a pick. Lastly, if you look at other musical instruments, e.g the piano, you can find the same situation : a plethora of highly skilled virtuoso pianists and a circle jerk of people bleating on in pseudo-scientific terms about parts of their body who can't play particularly well fixating on technique in the flawed belief this will provide the "secret" to playing. It doesn't. But I guess the key part of making money from this is ignoring that evidence.
Songwriting has to have the cyclical roots of the modality's emotional spectrums AND the trained ear... It takes months: starting with the parts (doodles) that you want to put together. You work on the link zones through bridges and accents just to paste it together. After getting that template created, you move on into the phrasing nuances that speak out the idea while holding back on the spelling things out. The entire process is constantly evolving the piece into the end product so, that time of overly elaborating the parts and the piece is still relevant to the self lessons in choosing the chord usages and elaborations. Thank you for this interview !!
Thanks for teaching and codifying these techniques. It somewhat explains how I pick single note lines. You mention that when using the easy motion, one picks straight into the guitar. But rather than rotate the forearm clockwise as you do, I rotate the arm counter-clockwise, so the pick points downwards, getting the pick as parallel as I can comfortably get with the fretboard. I hold the pick in a standard thumb and index manner and use a door-knocking motion to pick with short strokes. In my mind, I feel like I am picking towards and away from the fretboard. This also allows me to alternate pick one note per string arpeggios and two notes per string as fast as I can tremolo pick. There is a Shawn Lane video where he describes what I think is similar. He says that his pick is almost sideways, and his hand appears to be doing the dart-thrower motion. I am by no means an accomplished guitarist, as I only noodle now and then, but I thought I'd mention this as a variation of your technique.
PHEW, my brain just didn't want to do supinate the wrist AND also use DSX. Took me about an hour to convince my brain that bringing my wrist down is the upstroke motion in this technique. You're so right though, it's technique-based. Every 10 seconds I'd have to remind myself to either get my wrist back to the "ergonomic mouse" position, or to reverse my pick slant, and every time I'd remember, my speed would come back. Then I'd lapse into old muscle memory and lose the speed. Thank you for this!
Troy is responsible for me being able to throw down on guitar...Cant tell you what these lessons have done for not only kickass playing,but you're also helping people's self esteem...🤘
I've been playing a long time and I've been searching for why my alternate picking was plateauing and i wanted to go faster but i was locked. It's because of thumb to pinky movement..100%! I'm not near my guitar but i can already tell your spot on
Okay, I'm ready for the version for drummers now too (my first musical passion)! This was amazing! It should be mandatory viewing for anyone trying to play fast! I also noticed the grip is very different from what I've seen recommended for fast playing in other videos. Gonna have to try it all! Also, as a physicist, I love the scientific approach to understanding the ergonomics. I'm sure anyone with a science background will agree. This is simply the best demonstration of this ever! Cheers, and THANK YOU!
Amazing stuff, Troy! I have heard people talk about reverse dart throwing motions in the forum but I never really knew what they were talking about and now I do! This video is so well done! Incredible playing also. Great job! 🙂🤘
The Primer explains all of this in even simpler fashion. The quickest reference we have is this lesson here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-mechanics/chapter-1-identifying-wrist-motion/
This is truly fantastic. I'm a similar age to Troy, and while I've been unavoidably away from playing the guitar for a couple of years, I've just seen the light after literally decades of frustration from having tried to ape Al Di Meola's playing with a flat wrist and side-to-side action (which I think he even described in his playing techniques book which I bought when I was maybe 15). Just changing that axis while tapping against my laptop, with the arm twisted (rather than flat) shows that this is a huge breakthrough. Fantastic stuff from Cracking the Code, and when I eventually get back to playing the guitar (in 6 months or so), I'm looking forward to putting this into practice. 👍
Yes! When you learn to view wrist joint motion relative to the arm it becomes clearer which motion Al Di is actually making. Live footage helps of course. From static photos in books back in the day, forget it - I had no chance. There were still people who learned these techniques at fifteen or whatever, with no teaching. They were just fewer in number because succeeding required particularly great athletic intuition, luck, or both.
@@claymor8241 It's worse than that. I'm self-building an extension for my house.... my one year build is already over a year overdue! All looked so easy on RUclips.
8:46 I'm having a really hard time seeing any of that DT or RDT motion in these players, and they all pick differently from Troy as well. Can somebody explain it to me please?
With me, I think it is a synchronization between left and right that I struggle with....as in speed runs.....if your fingering hand is slow when playing runs, it really doesn't matter how fast your picking hand can go when it comes to fast runs...but that's a completely different subject than what this video covers...this is a way cool video in regard to what it is covering...which appears to be playing extremely fast while staying on one note or chord. Thanks for this one, Troy, hope you and yours are doing well!
For sure, the intro is all riff examples, but I also included coordinated single-note lead playing examples in the alternate picking section at 15:31. I wanted to make sure players understand that these are just wrist motions, and they can be used to play anything else that people typically with the wrist joint, i.e. everything! As to hand sync, yes, super critical topic. However, one thing I want to point out is that even tremolo picking with no fretting hand can be "synchronized", in a manner of speaking. Even at very fast speeds, and even with no click, it is possible to know, by feel, where all your downstrokes (or upstrokes) are in time, and to stop on any of them, so you can play an exact quantity of notes. This is true even when playing fast enough that someone listening may not be able to follow individual notes. The ability to "chunk" your motions into groups is how it's done, and it is actually the first step in two-handed synchronization. If the picking motions are not grouped in this way, then they will just be a blur, and you won't be able to link them up to the fretting motions at known intervals. There's a little more on this subject in our old Cracking the Code series ( ruclips.net/video/0rjC-ph9WYA/видео.html ).
@@troygrady Thanks Troy (corrected the mis-spell of "Trey" in my comment...sorry about that, haha!)...I'll check the video reference of 15:31...thanks for the reference! "You just have to choose lines that you can actually fret at these tempos"....so it appears you have to know what lines your fingering hand is capable of accurately fretting at those picking hand speeds...ok...got it...thanks again!
Another perfect explanation and demonstration of a rather arcane subject. This is close to how I've been playing since I ditched the bent wrist style Marty Friedman uses so I could do reliable palm muting some 15 years ago. The other component is the rotation of the whole forearm as an added part of the overall motion. That rotation is a function of the bicep, which being a rather larger than forearm muscles, has a lot of endurance for these small motions. Combining some rotational motion in with the angled wrist motion (for me at least) gives a lot more endurance. The circular axis of the added motion, also makes avoiding unwanted string picks a little easier.
Forearm motions can be fast, for sure! EVH's tremolo technique is a great example of that. But this technique here does not have a forearm rotational component. You can see this in the closeup shots - the pick is not rotating. This technique is more similar to what very fast wrist players do, like Shawn Lane and John McLaughlin.
@@troygrady Indeed. The big takeaway for me is the reminder that you don't have to use the same technique for everything. You can have a whole bag of different tools and use as needed. I think a lot of us get hung up on the idea of there being a singular 'right' way. You're doing a lot to get people to branch out and accept variety.
@@troygrady I think about Tim Henson in that context of using a huge variety of techniques. Like some of the newer Metallica stuff. It sounds very simple and easy to play, until you try, and then discover it's challenging in new ways, be it timing, or some other way you have to stretch.
Not sure what you mean by "variable stroke", but Anton looks like a reverse dart wrist motion player to me - with occasional two-way pickslanting forearm motions that help out.
@@troygrady Sorry, I'm using a translator. I meant alternate picking and bypassing the string when moving from string to string. With an even and odd number of notes on a string. Internal and external bends (bypasses) of the string during transition.
I think I understand what you're asking! If you ask Anton to play a very fast tremolo, I think his motion will look like what we demonstrate in this lesson. This is a wrist motion, and only the muscles of the wrist are used to move the hand back and forth. If you ask Anton to play lines where he has to play odd numbers of notes per string, you will see a combination of wrist motions *and* forearm rotation motions on certain notes to help rotate the arm. This is what I call "two-way pickslanting". I don't know what Anton calls it. To make matters more confusing, there are some lines which you can play which are complicated, where you have odd numbers of notes per string, or even one note on a string, that can be done entirely with the wrist itself, without involving the forearm rotation muscles. Here is a good example of what that looks like in slow motion ( ruclips.net/video/NYyVbn7lQao/видео.html ). When you film players who are good at this type of playing, you will see both methods: the "only wrist" method, and the "wrist plus forearm" method. It's complicated and mostly learned subconsciously. But this is what I think Anton does.
After practicing this today, I think I got it. Paul Gilbert talks about this, but from his video, I dont get it. (Paul Gilbert, Right Hand on RUclips) If you dont know this video, it's a nice shot of his picking, and he talks about the upstroke as well. I absolutely love Paul, but your discrpion is the best I know.
If you're talking about the one where he does all upstrokes and downstrokes, I've seen that. However the motions he does there are not very similar to his actual picking motion once he starts alternate picking. So if him doing all ups / downs that way helps, I would say it's somehat coincidental in his case. The key with the motions in this lesson is that even the "all-upstroke" tapping motion looks almost exactly like the alternate picking version of the same motion. We can see that with the slow motion camera. So it's a much closer stepping stone. If you can get the all-ups, you can probably also get alternate at the same tempo.
@@troygrady i think you are right, again, if the motion is exact the same the feeling changes. im glad of your gamechanging knowlage and sharing this stuff❤
Wow wow wow Troy, thanks for confirming reverse dart thrower is exactly the same as Roy Marchbank's hybrid sarod. When you interviewing him? Be awesome to see you two jam.
Funny enough it's just like doing matched grip vs French grip when playing drums (single stroke rolls with no bounce/fingers). Matched grip with done by Slightly externally rotating (supinating) at the wrist and simultaneously flexing at the wrist. I actually gave up on guitar and started playing drums for about a decade...in part because I felt like this speed component was missing and I just didn't have "it." Then somehow coming back to the axe 10 years later but having somewhat optimized my wrist movement and positioning from drumming, I can play lighting fast. Still trying to get left hand synced up, but the right hand is no longer an issue. Great video series!!! Thank you!
Lots of parallels with drumming in terms of the complexity of the motions. None of the motions in this lesson are forearm rotation, they're all wrist joint motion. But we were just talking about Buddy Rich's joint motions on the forum the other day. His right hand was wrist, his left hand was forearm: ( forum.troygrady.com/t/buddy-rich-joint-motions/71087 )
I've been learning the guitar for about a year, and I've been doing this a lot accidentally when trying to pick really fast, which isn't really that fast considering my experience but not even realizing that it was an actual thing. sweet something to lean into then.
Yes, Shawn was a dart player - but the original dart thrower motion, not the reverse one. So he is kind of "backwards" compared to the players we look at in this video. However, similar concept. He's using the diagonal motion for speed.
@prezlamen i saw it from George Benson and in one old book from DC and of course Shon Lane as well ( IMHO Shown picked that from G. Benson), but there were no explanations like Troy did it here. Shown only told that He holds a pick in an opposite direction, and that during those super fast runs He almost 'cut' strings at 90 degrees angle. The rest was up to to us who watched Him to guess what He did. So i never had a guts to develop that, and a few days ago i gave it tried after a long pause and it seems more natural. Problem was that teachers would tell us ''that is the wrong approach''. Thx to Troy people can understand why something works and believe in it 100% that such approach or any other that he have explained (in the past years) will gave them a good results. Of course If they practice it , so it is soooo much easier nowadays thx to Troy. Imagine if people had this 30 years ago such detailed explanations? I wished i did due to there was a lot of guess work back then, and some teachers would insist ''you have to hold the pick like this''. Only solution for the problem was to play slow. OK Shown told ala ''that is OK to play a fast as We can no matter f We make mistakes, but then to return to a speed were We can play it clean''. that was a bit difrent approach that We used to see in those REH videos and Hot Licks. There were no people like Troy would clearly explain it all .
@@troygrady Your explanations are so precise, Troy IMHO you are the leading expert when it comes to picking techniques ( for the last 10 years for sure you're No1). I have to find some page with all expressions you use to learn them well. Due to you've put the picking under the scientific Prisma, and that is a good thing, because such precise expressions and names are taking away the guessing work. Thank you so much Sir Troy!
This is fascinating. I was in a band with another guitar pal who was far less committed to the instrument than myself, but his alternate picking was lightyears ahead of mine regardless of my hours of discipline, attempting to catch up with him. I guess he just naturally landed on this economic technique 'cause he certainly wasn't able to articulate it to me!
I recommend purchasing the pickslanting primer. Its got tons of great information. One thing I didnt realize is that Downward escape is the fastest (vs USX).
Yeah it's a very interesting question. It's mainly just that there is one direction of the wrist that is the fastest. However the escape you get is somewhat secondary - it's determined by the overall arm position and form. It's possible that you could use the "fast" direction of wrist motion, but cause it to be USX by using the right form. Notice that many death metal players use a highly "flexed" wrist, like you're cradling a baby. I think this is why they do that. With a straighter wrist, that same motion might produce DSX. So some experimentation is necessary.
@@troygrady Thanks for responding Troy. Having worked with it for about 6 months I find I like a more heavilyflexed wrist when on the high E (USX). If I am moving across the strings I flatten out somewhat.
Today I learned my picking technique looks identical to Albert Lee. I had actually been consciously trying to stop using 3 finger grips because I thought they were "wrong" and would hinder rather than help. In the same way, I was trying to flatten out my mouse shape to be flat like Jason Richardson. This has been enlightening. Been doing stuff right I didn't even know I was doing right.
I think Jason's technique is actually "dart thrower", i.e. non-reverse. So he's not flat, he's actually anchoring on the thumb and tilted the *opposite* direction. This is mainly for his medium-speed playing. When he speeds up I think it just becomes elbow joint motion, but this is common among dart players, since the overall form is similar. In your case though, correct - if your arm position looks Albert's tall mouse form, and it's comfortable, you can get great results that way.
@@troygrady by flat, I just mean how his fingers are tucked underneath and curled tightly, not that he is picking or moving on a flat axis. In other words, I thought it was bad to be "tall". It looks like an "OK" hand symbol when I hold my pick sometimes, where Jason has no space between the thumb and pointer. ruclips.net/video/eGnnHvdHwO4/видео.html 3:48 in this video is exactly what I'm talking about.
I haven't really had a chance to fully explore everything presented here and I'm not sure I'm ready to switch up my pick grip, but I had a real paradigm shift after watching this video. I had some "door knocker" wrist motion in my playing already, but I considered it as a secondary part of my pick stroke. After focusing on it as the more primary method of movement it allowed me think about and experience the entire movement a bit differently. Thanks for your continuing exploration into this area!
I'm not sure there's a way to think about parts of a pickstroke! I say this only because I don't want to mislead you with all technical bedazzlement in these lessons if it's not actually going to produce results for you. With this technique, the simplest test is if you can do a rapid, easy-feeling "tapping" motion in the air. You can also do it by tapping on the guitar body. If you do it with a metrnome and you can go way faster than your usual picking motion, then that's a good sign that you're doing it. If the speed comes up more or less the same as what you normally do, then you might not be getting the benefit. Thankfully, this is one of those things where it's relatively easy to tell if it's working.
Troy you're the legend, but i Doubt you'll believe that i tried that 7 days ago, after pause in playing of 1+ year and now i see video of yours ☺+science. I saw it from George Benson, Shown Lane, and before them from DJANGO and bunch of Manouche Jazz players, also in a book of Dave Celentano ''Flaying Fingers'' 30 years ago He gave proposition to try that technique. People called it ''Reverse''. Anyhow, i never had a guts to play like that due to its rare in rock, blues and HM fast solo picking. When i tried after 1+ years that technique it was far more natural and easier to me to play like that then with a usual approach. You are the only one who underline explanation why something work and goes deep into science. BRAVO !
@@troygrady WOW thank you so much Troy for the answer and that you believe, I agree with you 1000% about little coincidences! ( i've made a few spelling mistakes so pardon me for that pls). Thank you for all explanations, when you do it then it's makes more legit, and i'm sure this what you've made will have a HUGE impact on a future players, as well as all your videos and methods did in the past. You have changed how people approach to the guitar 100%. For a lot of things i have to thank you, due to some of your videos have helped me in the past to understand that is OK to tilt the pick. My teacher 25+ years ago insisted that i have to hold the pick parallels to the strings, and practice super slow. That gave me some usual results but your methods are far far better. You are excluding the guess work, and give people trust in it so that with some practice they will have a great results. I'm still not the sure should i change my entire picking to this one that you shared, but i'll use it more often. if someone sas it looks strange then i'll tell them ''check on Troy's channel''. Sometimes We have to believe more in ourselves when We see that something is giving results, no matter that only a minority of players are doing that or even if it seems 'unique'. That was my problem, i never had a guts to go for that technique all the way, but now thx to you that will change i promise. THANK YOU TROY, you are the BEST!
love your analytics. i can play some smooth phrases with instinct, and doubble escape, but some other´s are always got a extramove that slowes all down. i think u nailed it, again! thx
i had to make one more comment, thank you for all Troy Grady Due to for people who have some sort of operations in their upper arms ( as i did), or/and if they suffer from so called tennis elbow (Lateral epicondylitis), this sort of pick holding - reverse dart- honestly helps a lot to remove the pain. At least that is the case with me, and i assume that can help a lot with other tendons issues in elbow and wrist. That is logical conclusion from the video. THX Troy
That's interesting and sorry to hear about the elbow injury. The HSS researchers who we interviewed mostly focus their reseach on rehabilitation. When you say that reverse dart helps to remove the pain, are you referring to the pick grip or the joint motion? Because if you've had elbow issues, this technique is mainly wrist so there would be less motion at the elbow joint. There might still be some, but it's not the main driver of the motion.
@@troygrady Thank you for your time , I'm doing OK ( it happens, and life moves on). I'll try my best to answer your questions @troygrady and sorry that it took 3 weeks. It helps with a grip as well with movement of joint. No matter that I'm just moving the wrist there s still some ''tension'' in the elbow that is causing the pain when i try to play faster with ''usual'' grip, also there is lack of grip control due to pressure in ligaments in the wrist as well. You know it's imposable for us to ''turn off'' some nerves and ligament's even if I'm trying not to move the elbow there is connection with a wrist. I had operations in Swiss and they did he best possible job, but still there are some limitations. once when they open muscles etc it can always cause some pain in the future no matter how good surgeons did operation. When the tissue is cut (muscles, ligaments, setting bones after a fracture, inserting artificial materials into the bone, etc.) it always creates a problem, especially as we age - that's how they explained. But what you shared solves the problem as far as pain and movement, I personally have no pain when I try to play fast with this technique and I have more control over the pick.
@@troygrady That's why I'm grateful because this work of yours is a great help for people like me. You know for sure that some guitarists injure the ligaments of their hand or even their elbow and have to undergo surgery. It seems to me personally that this technique of yours RDTPM (Reverse Dart Thrower Picking Motion) can help guitarists who had surgery. There is less pressure on the ligaments of the hand and elbow, it seems as a more natural position for the wrist of hand. Until you made this video the technique of RDTPM seemed strange to me, I did try it but I didn't dare to use it because it seemed to me like a "wrong technique" that only a few guitarists use. You gave an explanation and scientific background of why and how it can be played with a RDTPM, that it is not a wrong way of holding the pick, but it is just different and more natural. I don't know how else to thank you and explain myself; this is the best i can do right now. So thank you once again Troy 👍, and I wish you all the best in your future work.🎸🍀
This is amazing. I love how far you've been pushing the knowledge that everyone has pretty much disregarded up until now. There has been so much contradictory advice on picking technique and this idea that certain things only work for certain people. But Troy consistently shows that you can learn it all if you know how, whether it's Yngwie style shredding, bluegrass crosspicking, or effortlessly ripping through metal riffs at 250 bpm. Also love the thumbnail, by the way.
I think there are still likely differences in individual ability, as there are in athletics. But how great those differences are is unclear. The god of this subject was Anders Ericsson who was super skeptical of genetic "talent" but did accept that some things, like tall height in basketball, were obviously beneficial. For everything else he was emphatic that you won't get the best performance until the best techniques are fully understood and there is coaching that can teach them. So in that respect, it's a good description of where guitar is at, since we're still figuring out things and disseminating the instruction for them.
@@troygrady Nice analogy! Certain skateboarding tricks are not going to work unless you setup your feet properly and generally someone has to show you that part... thanks again for lending your knowledge man!
I'm no speed demon but i can pick pretty fast consistently. After watching the vid i guess i fell into this picking style by accident years ago, trying to learn thrash speed chugs. My old guitar teacher and i worked on technique plenty, but he's a jazz guy so we never really got into speed picking beyond scale runs with alternate picking. Anyway, cool video. Thanks for making it so scientific!
I actually started off with the three finger pick grip, but changed to a two fingered grup once I realised that I can't quite do a trailing edge when playing guitar standing anyways, which prompted me to switch to leading edge picking. However I realised that while most players only use the tip of the index finger to hold the pick with the thumb I use almost half the index finger, which looking back, was almost a compromise for a three finger grip.
Are you referring to his strumming motion? Yes, it's the same technique. We could have included him alongside Joscho Stephan and Roy Clark in the strumming section, for sure. It just didn't occur to me!
@@troygrady Yeah, specifically it's what he refers to as 'circus funk' : ruclips.net/video/mMPfYYE5CBE/видео.html It did look like the same kind of motion , I just wanted to be sure so thanks for the reply. I'm still struggling to make it sound clean and consistent but I'll keep trying!
It's sort of similar to a whip , cracking ; where a wave of energy is transfered through a sort of universal joint and the final small intense fine motion is given extra energy with less local energy excess.
Those extreme speeds sound amazing!!!! Man so need to take note because I absolutely love that sound, I could listen to it for hours on end... Made me think of Anthrax and Agent Steel
Yes! I think Shawn was a dart thrower player - i.e. not a reverse dart player. In other words, he used the inverse arm position and inverse axis of motion. Essentially same idea, just using the other diagonal axis.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Wow, I am truly mind blown. I've been playing for 30 plus years and I could never attain the speeds that I wish to attain or the effortless in the clean picking between string and notes. I am blown away by this. Thank you so much. New subscriber here. I plan on binge watching the videos on your channel and possibly ordering your instructional videos. Where have you been my whole life?👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Aw, man. This 3-finger rotated grip is what I started with so many years ago, until I got some lessons and was told that was completely wrong, and I was going to have to re-learn the thumb and curled first finger pick grip. Now you tell me!
Everything was anecdotal back then. Guys says do this, other guy says do that. The three-finger thing isn't magic though and some players may be able to use a "tall mouse" form with an index grip if their fingers or palm are long enough. So there are still unknowns here. I would say test and see what works, while monitoring for what feels easy / comfortable.
I’m the same as you and am only just going back now and re-adopting some of things that I unlearnt because I was told by a black and white picture in a book printed in 1992 that it was wrong!
You mentioned that most of the people who use this motion use either a three finger grip on the pick, or a trailing edge grip (like how you were demonstrating with your picking in this video). For people who are married to a more traditional leading edge grip, fear not - Andy Wood, who I believe is one of the people who really started to get Troy looking into the reverse dart thrower motion to begin with, performs all his picking with the more traditional grip. Having experimented with it myself it does make the upstrokes a bit trickier because the pick experiences a bit more resistance compared to a trailing edge grip. But it most certainly is doable.
Andy uses sort of the "stage 1" of reverse dart, which is the flatter ergonomic mouse form. I can do this up to about 230 bpm or so and it doesn't feel as easy as the taller ergonomic mouse form. By comparison, 200 bpm with tall mouse form feels stupidly easy. This is tough because most of us, myself included, have much more experience with the index grip variety. For now I'm just leaving the door open to experimentation.
@@troygrady That makes sense, since the movement doesn't quite as well approximate the actual muscles that move the wrist. I guess as long as you're aware of the limitations it's fine to pursue - 230bpm is plenty fast for a lot of genres of music!
These are all good observations. We still have questions about the "real" axes of wrist movement. For example, at that part of the animation, where we show the "ECU" muscle, that muscle by itself is actually a very close approximation of Andy's motion. The FCR is a very good approximation of the death metal motion. Is the "real" axis the average of the two, as we show? Or are there two "sweet spots" - the Andy one (fast) and the metal one (very fast)? We don't know! The thing is, now you know what we know, and you can do testing and see what you think.
@@troygrady I think the biggest reason I can think of for using Andy's technique (other than familiarity) is because it allows for easiest access to hybrid picking. Hard to do that with a more "high ergonomic mouse" movement.
It's crazy the number of things I was doing right as a young teenager that my teachers made me stop doing. I've been relearning from Troy all of the things that came naturally and were taught out of me.
Wow amazing. Been playing around with this technique for a couple hours and realized that my form looks similar to the Gypsy jazz player. But then I tried to flatten my wrist toward the strings more and directed for palm muting the lower strings and noticed it’s very uncomfortable. Now I can’t work out how these guys palm mute with the fleshy part of the palm under the thumb, or if they mute in a different way!
A 60 year old Trailing Edge picker here. My once retarded picking grip by my old band mates and friends has now gained a new badge of honour 😀I could always DP quickly and now I know why. Even at 60 I am now going to push the BPM's. Great explanation of the Reverse Dart motion.
We all got the wrong messaging back in the day! One caveat, it's not the grip per se. It's that these grips enable a more "tall mouse" arm position, and that in turn enables the more "bird pecking" style of picking motion. And those are the joint motions that go faster. So it's really ultimately about the joint motion - the pick grip just lets you get into a comfortable spot with the arm to get that joint motion to work as a picking motion.
@@troygrady The whole mechanics of it all is fascinating. Very grateful for these video breakdowns and it’s definitely honing my playing and using my quirks as a benefit. The human body definitely has some great little tricks up its sleeve that’s for sure.
Troy, I doubt you'll respond to my comments and will most likely delete them. Regardless, I think it's worth pointing out that the "reverse Dart Thrower technique", is in fact Roy Marchbanks "Hybrid Sarod Technique", which Roy has been demonstrating and promoting on RUclips and various other platforms for years. I find it very interesting that players like Dweezil Zappa and even Steve Vai will publicly acknowledge Roys playing abilities and technique. Yet there's nothing but radio silence from you, (somebody who is so hyper focused on picking technique), when it comes to Roy Marchbank. Why is that, Troy? Furthermore, how is it that you'll openly state in the comment replies that Roys technique is featured in this video, but then use your own term for it instead? I look forward to your reply, however I'm doubtful I'll receive one.
Awesome content, as always. But I never see any talk about his tone. Troy's high gain tones are awesome. I'd like to know what your signal chain looks like in these clips too!
Just the usual Cornford Hellcat. I actually think for extreme metal stuff like this it's not quite right - the super modern amps give you that gun-like chug on the muted notes. The Hellcat doesn't do that. If I were doing more metal stuff I would probably pick up something more hi gain / modern. For everything else though the Hellcat is great.
been loving your stuff since the start... the way I pick is in my THUMB... i bending my thumb gives me and up stroke and straightening my thumb gives me a down stroke ( this is more noticeable on one string) this also by nature incorporates two way pick slanting.... the way i came up with this was from thinking picking parallel to the strings was what was causing me to break them but it was a sharp saddle on a cheap squire strat :P funny how things work
Digging in! Are you able to use this technique with EJ style licks (I imagine the fret hand might be the limit here)? I have found my pick arm willing/wanting me to go into a position like I see with Joscho Stephan, but at too great of an angle I lose control. Time to experiment.
This technique is a DSX technique specifically so you would need to start EJ lines on upstrokes. Which means you won't have the downstroke sweeps you need for things like the EJ fives pattern. Also, as you're pointing out, almost nobody will be able to actually fret 2nps lines past a certain speed. Shawn Lane was probably the best at this but he would still have limits that are far lower than his limits for his 3nps and 4nps fretting. Also, Shawn was a dart (i.e. non-reverse) player, so his motion was inverted compared to this one. It was USX, and he could use the original EJ picking patterns including the downstroke sweeping. Different arm position / motion / etc. but similar concept.
20:04 If I apply the same principles, can I have UpStroke Scape using dart Thrower just as I have DownStroke Scape using the Reverse dart thrower?? could it be just as effective? what about wrist position?
Good question. I think there are two options. (1) Maximum speed DSX + mixed escape phrases (including one note per string) using zero-degree pickslant form, and (2) Continuous USX tremolo, only suitable for USX lines, with no mixed escape, using DWPS form. You can see an example of (1) at 16:40. You can use option (1) to play things like Paul Gilbert lines or even Steve Morse lines. However if you want Yngwie or Eric Johnson lines, which depend on USX tremolo with downstroke sweeping, you need option (2), and you must use a slightly different arm position and grip for this. And at that point, you can't play the same lines as option (1). Also your maximum speed might be lower because the USX motion is not as close to the "true" reverse dart axis. This is what I think is going on. Think of them like two different languages. Use the form that best fits the music you are playing.
Great question. It depends! With a supinated forearm position, frisbee would be dart - basically the reverse of a clubbing motion. With a pronated forearm position, frisbee would be reverse dart. However you're right that it's probably one of the two diagonal axes since those are the powerful ones.
Hey Troy this is a really stunning piece of work. However I have something in mind, I feel like the dart throwing motion can be easier for hyper supinator people, for example, I have a very good pronation movement so it’s really hard for me to do wrist extension but I’m very confortable with cupping. Does it apply here ? I mean being hyper pronator can I do the rêver dart throwing motion be reverse like by cupping ? Greeting me from France
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I'm already blasting the f*ck out my guitar after watching this. It is unbelievable! You are a genius, Troy. Thank you so much for everything!
Put up some clips, we love seeing results!
@@troygrady just uploaded a video: ruclips.net/video/-5t-zr2eeVo/видео.html. The upstrokes are crazy already!
Awesome!! Edit: For reasons I can't figure out your link is not displaying here, but it probably will if I post it as the channel owner ( ruclips.net/video/-5t-zr2eeVo/видео.html ). For those who are interested, click on over for some amazing 260 bpm upstroke riffing!
@@troygrady omg. I'm honored. Feel free to share and cut ❤
@@troygrady New video: ruclips.net/video/6P08NXPR7Ug/видео.html definitely got faster on the higher strings, but i don't know if i am doing it right.
I'm a mechanical engineer and a guitar player. I find this forensic approach to guitar techniques so AWESOME! I really appreciate the work that must go into these. ❤
Nice! That's a skill set I'd like to have. What do you work on?
prob just 🧢ing lmao
@@helio1055 hey, first job was a design consultant to the construction industry, mechanical and electrical department, Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems for buildings. I didn't really enjoy that too much. Then I transferred to a Diesel engine test facility. R&D for the fuel injection systems for truck and tractor engines. I dunno what capping is, I'm probably too old.
@@johnwardle9667hey that’s awesome I’m an engineer also! Love metal and guitar rock on 🤘
@@troygradyyour sick af on the axe 🎸 KEEP IT METAL ROCK ON 🤘
I am astounded by how much we still have to learn about technique, efficiency, the human body, Etc.
Same!
Exemplary work as usual, Troy. Thanks so much for giving props to Chuck Schuldiner! I played with Chuck in Death and it was a great honor to do so. Nice to see him getting recognition here for his blazing picking technique.
I tend to think of the reverse dart thrower motion as the same as using a salt or pepper shaker. Please correct me if I'm wrong haha.Cheers \m/
I'm going right back to your Symbolic Solos video after I get this technique down.
Awesome!! Man you played on a true classic. Chuck is a pioneer. I actually had to do a little digging to make sure I got the pronunciation right. I discovered that not knowing how to pronounce "Schuldiner" is pretty common.
Oh my god it's the Bobby Koelble! I loved your solos on symbolic :)
I've dealt with chronic muscle tension due to PTSD for all of my adult life. The work you do in the science of guitar playing is greatly appreciated.
cry me a river
@@10csade really?
huh, I was doing reverse dart the entire time and didn't even realize it...that's awesome. Its always what was more comfortable for me over the past 33 years. Excellent video as always!
I wish I'd have seen this 35 years ago. Thanks for all your hard work making this, Troy Grady! You're Awesome!
Me too! Better late than never I guess.
Awesome you included Archspire!! Dean Lamb is one of the main guys that comes to mind for me reverse dart throwing. He’s the only reason I’ve tried to switch to it, no luck yet, but still trying.
Are you sure you're not already doing it? Andy Wood, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Andy James, and many more or all reverse dart players. They're not using "tall mouse" form but there's plenty of footage of McLaughlin blazing at 220bpm+. So "small mouse" is still a very capable motion.
Troy can you please do the video from the players perspective ie view of hand but from the players eye? It's great to see the string axis and rotation at string height but it doesn't really relate to the players view. We need to see the action as you would looking at our strings with the guitar on our body. I really think this would help more.
Right and with both pick grips. I’m so lost on this subject after watching it like 5 times I still don’t get it
Definitely, I am so lost lmao
Paul Gilbert has a great video from "Paul's Eye View" with lots of discussion of up and down escape motions, although he doesn't call them by those names, but you can see it the way he does...so valuable!!! ruclips.net/video/Q67YOVyqOYc/видео.html
Wtf you started this project so many years ago i thought you had uncovered it all and then you make this mind-blowing video 🤯
What we noticed originally was the concept of escape motion, where some players make the pick appear it is going up in the air. But we actually didn't know much about all the different ways the motions are accomplished, i.e. which joints and arm positions and pick grips and so on. That was a very complicated puzzle to piece out but we have much, much more knowledge of that know. And also how to teach things, which is the important part for most of us who just want to make music.
@@troygrady well I think you do a great justice to the many nuances involved, and your resources are ones for the guitar history books!
PSP and CtC really opened my eyes to technique and position, and this video did it again by literally inverting how I perceived which muscles are working on the desired motion
When it comes to technique Mr. Grady is # 1 guitar teacher in my book !
Alternate picking speed and especially comfort have increased tremendously thanks to this. Just thinking about the upstroke as mentioned around min. 16 did the trick. not sure how I can implement this for my downstrokes, but will try later.
Finally someone scientifically dissected James Hetfield's picking technique. You are my hero. TY!!!
James is a picking pioneer!
@@troygrady I'm printing this conversation to show to my friends.
I can't believe how a high level, top tier, super instructional and enlightening video has only 145k views (when this comment was made)!!
This is a life changing video, thank you so much Troy Grady! You changed my playing and I bet you also changed the playing of many guitar players!
I'm hitting the share button, and everyone should also!
Man, I can't even tell you how much this helped me. Finally, for the first time in several years, that awkward passion for learning guitar appeared again. Can't believe this information is free, you obviously deserve much more views. And also I definitely can see how you honestly want to share your team's discoveries with people, it really warms the soul XD.
Awkward passion for the win!
Please! Never stop doing what you do Troy!!
I'm unemployable in the accounting department with my current skill set so you're in luck!
OMG finally! I've been playing 15 years now and never could get this 220 bpm downstrokes like Hetfiled does
Thanks, this is pure magic through science
You guys are the best 🥰
Awesome! Let's see some clips! We're always learning from the way other people are learning.
To say this video has just made my day is an absolute understatement! I have no words right now... Just have to say "thank you, Troy!"
Cool!
WELL! I know what I’m trying today!
ngl i didn´t quite get all of that. but what i did get out of this video is that fast "knocking on a door" motion you can do in the air, do that on the guitar. and if the motion seems a bit large, don´t worry about it. and after a few minutes of trying that mindset, fast down strokes do feel quite a bit easier and less tense.
That's it! Great summary. The other hint is that to do it on a guitar, you don't want to come straight down and "knock" on the strings. You want to come at it a little from the side, so you may have to rotate your arm position a little like you do when using an ergonomic mouse. And this may require using a different pick grip to achieve that arm position while still being able to reach the strings comfortably with the right attack.
Thank you, that was pretty interesting! It'll serve me to guess why I can play quite fast when standing and wearing the guitar a bit lower than when sitting down, when my arms are otherwise feeling cramped.
Your work is a blessing! Those first videos on pick slanting meant an immediate leap for me, after years of struggling jumping strings, not being able to figure out on my own how easy it actually was. Although he main «wisdom» I gained wasn't the technique itself, but the thought process to find out the «code». Later on I even took beginner students, and observing their mechanics while fixing them as needed (I didn't want to bomb them with rules on «position correctness») made me learn much more than just observing myself.
Amazing thing. I've been doing the reverse Dart thrower picking with a typical pick grip forever. My thumb doesn't bend backwards so I've adapted. At first I couldn't figure out why both motions where the same speed with your way and mine.After filming my hand and comparing, It's because I've always done it. Cheers for putting a name to the technique.
So u could actually write a dissertation on this one and become a phd in guitar 💪🏽 this is pure science
We drew on a number of research papers for this. What is interesting is that the performance question (i.e. speed and endurance) hasn't really been investigated by science yet. These motions are mainly studied for their role in rehabilitation of joint injuries, where doctors are looking for motions which are very common because they can be used in many everyday activities like pouring, tapping, etc. They are less concerned with breaking speed records, even though the speed aspect can be a clue to how the joint motions work and why they evolved - and those questions *would* probably be of interest to researchers.
@@troygrady I mean this is a great topic for phd research in Berkeley university. This is the whole new level of playing, ur pickslanting videos for example completely changed the way I play. And it’s really more than just - practice 24/7 and u will become a great player
HOLY SHIT this made my downpicking speed go from a max of 85 bpm (where i got tired) to 95 bpm and sometimes higher depending on what i play, and my arm feels less exhausted! In one day! Thank you very much, this has greatly improved my picking!
I feel like Troy is listening to me through my phone. I’ve been learning corridor of chameleons by Meshuggah and had to switch to this very technique. Then I see this video in my recommended. Funny timing! You rock, Troy
If you're intuitive enough to somehow know that these form adjustments work, then you are among the few, the proud. I was never that smart back in the day. I had to "figure out" all these things!
Troy,I can't express how my playing (20 years deep before I discovered you) has improved,love you man ❤
My dad just retired recently. As a guitar player he asked me if i would teach him some guitar to reclaim an old goal of his now that he has free time.
I will definitely be showing him this and other videos that demystify certain things that lurk beneath that surface level that most players struggle with at first and need to discover through feel for themselves.
I play more extreme stuff and have since i was 15 and a reverse dart thrower style is what i landed on for picking speek 17 years ago through necessity, trial, and error. My dad wont ve needing this type of speed, but at his age he will need to be exerting his effort efficiently to avoid overuse injuries while learning, staying healthy and injury free is the only way to reach a goal like that in a timely manner.
Cheers Troy and co.
That is a fantastic observation! It's not really that the motions are fast - it's that they're fast *because* they're efficient and easy. Everything below those speeds just gets even easier.
You're such an asset to the guitar community, Troy.
This confirms something I have suspected for a while, I notice way less tension when I do the 3 finger grip. I actually do it with 2 fingers but my index finger is in the same position (slightly more centered on the pick) as it would be in the 3 finger version, kinda pointing at the guitar, not curled up.
After watching your video here I noticed the method I described also allows for that slight forearm rotation.
Sounds plausible! You are correct that the key is the wrist motion, and the arm position and grip simply enable that.
I’ve been waiting for this level of research to be put into musical technique for years… thank you
Evidence-based investigation is what we do!
@@troygrady It's a waste of time with respect to playing music. Firstly it's a tautology, since none of the mugs singing your praises can play darts telling them it's a dart playing motion is as pointless as telling aspiring dart players to move like they're picking a guitar. Secondly none of them do anything else they do by fretting about which anatomically named parts of their body move or don't move - if that was required then 1 year olds wouldn't be learning how to walk we'd have to wait until they were older. Thirdly if all the people singing your praises could actually play the guitar to a high technical standard then there's bazillions of incredible virtuoso musicians by now and yet there aren't any. Odd. Lastly, and the biggest clue this is a waste of time : the only interesting guitar players to come out in the past decade that are playing music can't even use a pick. Lastly, if you look at other musical instruments, e.g the piano, you can find the same situation : a plethora of highly skilled virtuoso pianists and a circle jerk of people bleating on in pseudo-scientific terms about parts of their body who can't play particularly well fixating on technique in the flawed belief this will provide the "secret" to playing. It doesn't. But I guess the key part of making money from this is ignoring that evidence.
Songwriting has to have the cyclical roots of the modality's emotional spectrums AND the trained ear...
It takes months: starting with the parts (doodles) that you want to put together. You work on the link zones through bridges and accents just to paste it together. After getting that template created, you move on into the phrasing nuances that speak out the idea while holding back on the spelling things out.
The entire process is constantly evolving the piece into the end product so, that time of overly elaborating the parts and the piece is still relevant to the self lessons in choosing the chord usages and elaborations.
Thank you for this interview !!
Thanks Troy! This makes absolutely sense. With this dart throwing motion it’s easier to play faster and cleaner.
Thanks for teaching and codifying these techniques. It somewhat explains how I pick single note lines. You mention that when using the easy motion, one picks straight into the guitar. But rather than rotate the forearm clockwise as you do, I rotate the arm counter-clockwise, so the pick points downwards, getting the pick as parallel as I can comfortably get with the fretboard. I hold the pick in a standard thumb and index manner and use a door-knocking motion to pick with short strokes. In my mind, I feel like I am picking towards and away from the fretboard. This also allows me to alternate pick one note per string arpeggios and two notes per string as fast as I can tremolo pick.
There is a Shawn Lane video where he describes what I think is similar. He says that his pick is almost sideways, and his hand appears to be doing the dart-thrower motion.
I am by no means an accomplished guitarist, as I only noodle now and then, but I thought I'd mention this as a variation of your technique.
PHEW, my brain just didn't want to do supinate the wrist AND also use DSX. Took me about an hour to convince my brain that bringing my wrist down is the upstroke motion in this technique. You're so right though, it's technique-based. Every 10 seconds I'd have to remind myself to either get my wrist back to the "ergonomic mouse" position, or to reverse my pick slant, and every time I'd remember, my speed would come back. Then I'd lapse into old muscle memory and lose the speed. Thank you for this!
Looks like a breakthrough for me. Definitely going to exercise this!
Troy is responsible for me being able to throw down on guitar...Cant tell you what these lessons have done for not only kickass playing,but you're also helping people's self esteem...🤘
I've been playing a long time and I've been searching for why my alternate picking was plateauing and i wanted to go faster but i was locked.
It's because of thumb to pinky movement..100%!
I'm not near my guitar but i can already tell your spot on
This opened up my mind as to why my picking speed hasnt progressed.
I love to watch these vids and imagine what it’s like to have the ability to get your hands somewhat in sync with each other.
Okay, I'm ready for the version for drummers now too (my first musical passion)!
This was amazing!
It should be mandatory viewing for anyone trying to play fast!
I also noticed the grip is very different from what I've seen recommended for fast playing in other videos.
Gonna have to try it all!
Also, as a physicist, I love the scientific approach to understanding the ergonomics.
I'm sure anyone with a science background will agree.
This is simply the best demonstration of this ever!
Cheers, and THANK YOU!
Amazing stuff, Troy! I have heard people talk about reverse dart throwing motions in the forum but I never really knew what they were talking about and now I do! This video is so well done! Incredible playing also. Great job! 🙂🤘
The Primer explains all of this in even simpler fashion. The quickest reference we have is this lesson here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-mechanics/chapter-1-identifying-wrist-motion/
This is truly fantastic. I'm a similar age to Troy, and while I've been unavoidably away from playing the guitar for a couple of years, I've just seen the light after literally decades of frustration from having tried to ape Al Di Meola's playing with a flat wrist and side-to-side action (which I think he even described in his playing techniques book which I bought when I was maybe 15). Just changing that axis while tapping against my laptop, with the arm twisted (rather than flat) shows that this is a huge breakthrough. Fantastic stuff from Cracking the Code, and when I eventually get back to playing the guitar (in 6 months or so), I'm looking forward to putting this into practice. 👍
Yes! When you learn to view wrist joint motion relative to the arm it becomes clearer which motion Al Di is actually making. Live footage helps of course. From static photos in books back in the day, forget it - I had no chance. There were still people who learned these techniques at fifteen or whatever, with no teaching. They were just fewer in number because succeeding required particularly great athletic intuition, luck, or both.
Hope you get your parole.
@@claymor8241 It's worse than that. I'm self-building an extension for my house.... my one year build is already over a year overdue! All looked so easy on RUclips.
8:46 I'm having a really hard time seeing any of that DT or RDT motion in these players, and they all pick differently from Troy as well. Can somebody explain it to me please?
With me, I think it is a synchronization between left and right that I struggle with....as in speed runs.....if your fingering hand is slow when playing runs, it really doesn't matter how fast your picking hand can go when it comes to fast runs...but that's a completely different subject than what this video covers...this is a way cool video in regard to what it is covering...which appears to be playing extremely fast while staying on one note or chord. Thanks for this one, Troy, hope you and yours are doing well!
For sure, the intro is all riff examples, but I also included coordinated single-note lead playing examples in the alternate picking section at 15:31. I wanted to make sure players understand that these are just wrist motions, and they can be used to play anything else that people typically with the wrist joint, i.e. everything!
As to hand sync, yes, super critical topic. However, one thing I want to point out is that even tremolo picking with no fretting hand can be "synchronized", in a manner of speaking. Even at very fast speeds, and even with no click, it is possible to know, by feel, where all your downstrokes (or upstrokes) are in time, and to stop on any of them, so you can play an exact quantity of notes. This is true even when playing fast enough that someone listening may not be able to follow individual notes. The ability to "chunk" your motions into groups is how it's done, and it is actually the first step in two-handed synchronization. If the picking motions are not grouped in this way, then they will just be a blur, and you won't be able to link them up to the fretting motions at known intervals. There's a little more on this subject in our old Cracking the Code series ( ruclips.net/video/0rjC-ph9WYA/видео.html ).
@@troygrady Thanks Troy (corrected the mis-spell of "Trey" in my comment...sorry about that, haha!)...I'll check the video reference of 15:31...thanks for the reference! "You just have to choose lines that you can actually fret at these tempos"....so it appears you have to know what lines your fingering hand is capable of accurately fretting at those picking hand speeds...ok...got it...thanks again!
Another perfect explanation and demonstration of a rather arcane subject. This is close to how I've been playing since I ditched the bent wrist style Marty Friedman uses so I could do reliable palm muting some 15 years ago. The other component is the rotation of the whole forearm as an added part of the overall motion. That rotation is a function of the bicep, which being a rather larger than forearm muscles, has a lot of endurance for these small motions. Combining some rotational motion in with the angled wrist motion (for me at least) gives a lot more endurance. The circular axis of the added motion, also makes avoiding unwanted string picks a little easier.
Forearm motions can be fast, for sure! EVH's tremolo technique is a great example of that. But this technique here does not have a forearm rotational component. You can see this in the closeup shots - the pick is not rotating. This technique is more similar to what very fast wrist players do, like Shawn Lane and John McLaughlin.
@@troygrady Indeed. The big takeaway for me is the reminder that you don't have to use the same technique for everything. You can have a whole bag of different tools and use as needed. I think a lot of us get hung up on the idea of there being a singular 'right' way. You're doing a lot to get people to branch out and accept variety.
That's true, and Ed is a good example of a multi-technique player who used different motions for different phrases.
@@troygrady I think about Tim Henson in that context of using a huge variety of techniques. Like some of the newer Metallica stuff. It sounds very simple and easy to play, until you try, and then discover it's challenging in new ways, be it timing, or some other way you have to stretch.
Is there an overview of Anton Oparin's variable stroke technique on the channel?
Not sure what you mean by "variable stroke", but Anton looks like a reverse dart wrist motion player to me - with occasional two-way pickslanting forearm motions that help out.
@@troygrady Sorry, I'm using a translator. I meant alternate picking and bypassing the string when moving from string to string. With an even and odd number of notes on a string. Internal and external bends (bypasses) of the string during transition.
@@troygrady It is very interesting to understand Anton Oparin’s right hand technique visually.
I think I understand what you're asking! If you ask Anton to play a very fast tremolo, I think his motion will look like what we demonstrate in this lesson. This is a wrist motion, and only the muscles of the wrist are used to move the hand back and forth. If you ask Anton to play lines where he has to play odd numbers of notes per string, you will see a combination of wrist motions *and* forearm rotation motions on certain notes to help rotate the arm. This is what I call "two-way pickslanting". I don't know what Anton calls it. To make matters more confusing, there are some lines which you can play which are complicated, where you have odd numbers of notes per string, or even one note on a string, that can be done entirely with the wrist itself, without involving the forearm rotation muscles. Here is a good example of what that looks like in slow motion ( ruclips.net/video/NYyVbn7lQao/видео.html ). When you film players who are good at this type of playing, you will see both methods: the "only wrist" method, and the "wrist plus forearm" method. It's complicated and mostly learned subconsciously. But this is what I think Anton does.
After practicing this today, I think I got it. Paul Gilbert talks about this, but from his video, I dont get it. (Paul Gilbert, Right Hand on RUclips) If you dont know this video, it's a nice shot of his picking, and he talks about the upstroke as well. I absolutely love Paul, but your discrpion is the best I know.
If you're talking about the one where he does all upstrokes and downstrokes, I've seen that. However the motions he does there are not very similar to his actual picking motion once he starts alternate picking. So if him doing all ups / downs that way helps, I would say it's somehat coincidental in his case. The key with the motions in this lesson is that even the "all-upstroke" tapping motion looks almost exactly like the alternate picking version of the same motion. We can see that with the slow motion camera. So it's a much closer stepping stone. If you can get the all-ups, you can probably also get alternate at the same tempo.
@@troygrady i think you are right, again, if the motion is exact the same the feeling changes. im glad of your gamechanging knowlage and sharing this stuff❤
Wow wow wow Troy, thanks for confirming reverse dart thrower is exactly the same as Roy Marchbank's hybrid sarod. When you interviewing him? Be awesome to see you two jam.
Funny enough it's just like doing matched grip vs French grip when playing drums (single stroke rolls with no bounce/fingers). Matched grip with done by Slightly externally rotating (supinating) at the wrist and simultaneously flexing at the wrist. I actually gave up on guitar and started playing drums for about a decade...in part because I felt like this speed component was missing and I just didn't have "it." Then somehow coming back to the axe 10 years later but having somewhat optimized my wrist movement and positioning from drumming, I can play lighting fast. Still trying to get left hand synced up, but the right hand is no longer an issue. Great video series!!! Thank you!
Lots of parallels with drumming in terms of the complexity of the motions. None of the motions in this lesson are forearm rotation, they're all wrist joint motion. But we were just talking about Buddy Rich's joint motions on the forum the other day. His right hand was wrist, his left hand was forearm: ( forum.troygrady.com/t/buddy-rich-joint-motions/71087 )
I've been learning the guitar for about a year, and I've been doing this a lot accidentally when trying to pick really fast, which isn't really that fast considering my experience but not even realizing that it was an actual thing. sweet something to lean into then.
This is exactly how I play,I develop this by feel,I was unable to down stroke in metal.I think this is also a secret of Shawn Lane`s speed
Yes, Shawn was a dart player - but the original dart thrower motion, not the reverse one. So he is kind of "backwards" compared to the players we look at in this video. However, similar concept. He's using the diagonal motion for speed.
@prezlamen i saw it from George Benson and in one old book from DC and of course Shon Lane as well ( IMHO Shown picked that from G. Benson), but there were no explanations like Troy did it here. Shown only told that He holds a pick in an opposite direction, and that during those super fast runs He almost 'cut' strings at 90 degrees angle. The rest was up to to us who watched Him to guess what He did.
So i never had a guts to develop that, and a few days ago i gave it tried after a long pause and it seems more natural. Problem was that teachers would tell us ''that is the wrong approach''. Thx to Troy people can understand why something works and believe in it 100% that such approach or any other that he have explained (in the past years) will gave them a good results. Of course If they practice it , so it is soooo much easier nowadays thx to Troy.
Imagine if people had this 30 years ago such detailed explanations? I wished i did due to there was a lot of guess work back then, and some teachers would insist ''you have to hold the pick like this''.
Only solution for the problem was to play slow. OK Shown told ala ''that is OK to play a fast as We can no matter f We make mistakes, but then to return to a speed were We can play it clean''. that was a bit difrent approach that We used to see in those REH videos and Hot Licks.
There were no people like Troy would clearly explain it all .
@@troygrady Your explanations are so precise, Troy IMHO you are the leading expert when it comes to picking techniques ( for the last 10 years for sure you're No1). I have to find some page with all expressions you use to learn them well. Due to you've put the picking under the scientific Prisma, and that is a good thing, because such precise expressions and names are taking away the guessing work. Thank you so much Sir Troy!
This is fascinating. I was in a band with another guitar pal who was far less committed to the instrument than myself, but his alternate picking was lightyears ahead of mine regardless of my hours of discipline, attempting to catch up with him. I guess he just naturally landed on this economic technique 'cause he certainly wasn't able to articulate it to me!
Troy is pretty much unlocking the next generation of guitar players.. get ready for 1k notes per minute to be a common thing on youtube.
I recommend purchasing the pickslanting primer. Its got tons of great information. One thing I didnt realize is that Downward escape is the fastest (vs USX).
Yeah it's a very interesting question. It's mainly just that there is one direction of the wrist that is the fastest. However the escape you get is somewhat secondary - it's determined by the overall arm position and form. It's possible that you could use the "fast" direction of wrist motion, but cause it to be USX by using the right form. Notice that many death metal players use a highly "flexed" wrist, like you're cradling a baby. I think this is why they do that. With a straighter wrist, that same motion might produce DSX. So some experimentation is necessary.
@@troygrady Thanks for responding Troy. Having worked with it for about 6 months I find I like a more heavilyflexed wrist when on the high E (USX). If I am moving across the strings I flatten out somewhat.
Today I learned my picking technique looks identical to Albert Lee. I had actually been consciously trying to stop using 3 finger grips because I thought they were "wrong" and would hinder rather than help. In the same way, I was trying to flatten out my mouse shape to be flat like Jason Richardson. This has been enlightening. Been doing stuff right I didn't even know I was doing right.
I think Jason's technique is actually "dart thrower", i.e. non-reverse. So he's not flat, he's actually anchoring on the thumb and tilted the *opposite* direction. This is mainly for his medium-speed playing. When he speeds up I think it just becomes elbow joint motion, but this is common among dart players, since the overall form is similar. In your case though, correct - if your arm position looks Albert's tall mouse form, and it's comfortable, you can get great results that way.
@@troygrady by flat, I just mean how his fingers are tucked underneath and curled tightly, not that he is picking or moving on a flat axis. In other words, I thought it was bad to be "tall". It looks like an "OK" hand symbol when I hold my pick sometimes, where Jason has no space between the thumb and pointer. ruclips.net/video/eGnnHvdHwO4/видео.html 3:48 in this video is exactly what I'm talking about.
I can't believe it. ten minutes in and just tried this. I'm faster and more accurate already... how is that possible? Thank you!
I haven't really had a chance to fully explore everything presented here and I'm not sure I'm ready to switch up my pick grip, but I had a real paradigm shift after watching this video. I had some "door knocker" wrist motion in my playing already, but I considered it as a secondary part of my pick stroke. After focusing on it as the more primary method of movement it allowed me think about and experience the entire movement a bit differently. Thanks for your continuing exploration into this area!
I'm not sure there's a way to think about parts of a pickstroke! I say this only because I don't want to mislead you with all technical bedazzlement in these lessons if it's not actually going to produce results for you. With this technique, the simplest test is if you can do a rapid, easy-feeling "tapping" motion in the air. You can also do it by tapping on the guitar body. If you do it with a metrnome and you can go way faster than your usual picking motion, then that's a good sign that you're doing it. If the speed comes up more or less the same as what you normally do, then you might not be getting the benefit. Thankfully, this is one of those things where it's relatively easy to tell if it's working.
Trust me. I’m good at overthinking things.
Troy you're the legend, but i Doubt you'll believe that i tried that 7 days ago, after pause in playing of 1+ year and now i see video of yours ☺+science. I saw it from George Benson, Shown Lane, and before them from DJANGO and bunch of Manouche Jazz players, also in a book of Dave Celentano ''Flaying Fingers'' 30 years ago He gave proposition to try that technique. People called it ''Reverse''. Anyhow, i never had a guts to play like that due to its rare in rock, blues and HM fast solo picking. When i tried after 1+ years that technique it was far more natural and easier to me to play like that then with a usual approach.
You are the only one who underline explanation why something work and goes deep into science. BRAVO !
There are tons of little coincidences and accidents like this in learning instrument technique so I believe it!
@@troygrady WOW thank you so much Troy for the answer and that you believe, I agree with you 1000% about little coincidences! ( i've made a few spelling mistakes so pardon me for that pls). Thank you for all explanations, when you do it then it's makes more legit, and i'm sure this what you've made will have a HUGE impact on a future players, as well as all your videos and methods did in the past. You have changed how people approach to the guitar 100%. For a lot of things i have to thank you, due to some of your videos have helped me in the past to understand that is OK to tilt the pick. My teacher 25+ years ago insisted that i have to hold the pick parallels to the strings, and practice super slow. That gave me some usual results but your methods are far far better. You are excluding the guess work, and give people trust in it so that with some practice they will have a great results.
I'm still not the sure should i change my entire picking to this one that you shared, but i'll use it more often. if someone sas it looks strange then i'll tell them ''check on Troy's channel''.
Sometimes We have to believe more in ourselves when We see that something is giving results, no matter that only a minority of players are doing that or even if it seems 'unique'. That was my problem, i never had a guts to go for that technique all the way, but now thx to you that will change i promise. THANK YOU TROY, you are the BEST!
Hey man, if you don't stop these videos we're gonna have a new GOAT of guitar RUclips...
love your analytics. i can play some smooth phrases with instinct, and doubble escape, but some other´s are always got a extramove that slowes all down. i think u nailed it, again! thx
i had to make one more comment, thank you for all Troy Grady Due to for people who have some sort of operations in their upper arms ( as i did), or/and if they suffer from so called tennis elbow (Lateral epicondylitis), this sort of pick holding - reverse dart- honestly helps a lot to remove the pain. At least that is the case with me, and i assume that can help a lot with other tendons issues in elbow and wrist. That is logical conclusion from the video. THX Troy
That's interesting and sorry to hear about the elbow injury. The HSS researchers who we interviewed mostly focus their reseach on rehabilitation. When you say that reverse dart helps to remove the pain, are you referring to the pick grip or the joint motion? Because if you've had elbow issues, this technique is mainly wrist so there would be less motion at the elbow joint. There might still be some, but it's not the main driver of the motion.
@@troygrady Thank you for your time , I'm doing OK ( it happens, and life moves on). I'll try my best to answer your questions @troygrady and sorry that it took 3 weeks. It helps with a grip as well with movement of joint. No matter that I'm just moving the wrist there s still some ''tension'' in the elbow that is causing the pain when i try to play faster with ''usual'' grip, also there is lack of grip control due to pressure in ligaments in the wrist as well.
You know it's imposable for us to ''turn off'' some nerves and ligament's even if I'm trying not to move the elbow there is connection with a wrist.
I had operations in Swiss and they did he best possible job, but still there are some limitations. once when they open muscles etc it can always cause some pain in the future no matter how good surgeons did operation.
When the tissue is cut (muscles, ligaments, setting bones after a fracture, inserting artificial materials into the bone, etc.) it always creates a problem, especially as we age - that's how they explained.
But what you shared solves the problem as far as pain and movement, I personally have no pain when I try to play fast with this technique and I have more control over the pick.
@@troygrady That's why I'm grateful because this work of yours is a great help for people like me. You know for sure that some guitarists injure the ligaments of their hand or even their elbow and have to undergo surgery.
It seems to me personally that this technique of yours RDTPM (Reverse Dart Thrower Picking Motion) can help guitarists who had surgery.
There is less pressure on the ligaments of the hand and elbow, it seems as a more natural position for the wrist of hand.
Until you made this video the technique of RDTPM seemed strange to me, I did try it but I didn't dare to use it because it seemed to me like a "wrong technique" that only a few guitarists use.
You gave an explanation and scientific background of why and how it can be played with a RDTPM, that it is not a wrong way of holding the pick, but it is just different and more natural.
I don't know how else to thank you and explain myself; this is the best i can do right now. So thank you once again Troy 👍, and I wish you all the best in your future work.🎸🍀
This is amazing. I love how far you've been pushing the knowledge that everyone has pretty much disregarded up until now.
There has been so much contradictory advice on picking technique and this idea that certain things only work for certain people. But Troy consistently shows that you can learn it all if you know how, whether it's Yngwie style shredding, bluegrass crosspicking, or effortlessly ripping through metal riffs at 250 bpm.
Also love the thumbnail, by the way.
I think there are still likely differences in individual ability, as there are in athletics. But how great those differences are is unclear. The god of this subject was Anders Ericsson who was super skeptical of genetic "talent" but did accept that some things, like tall height in basketball, were obviously beneficial. For everything else he was emphatic that you won't get the best performance until the best techniques are fully understood and there is coaching that can teach them. So in that respect, it's a good description of where guitar is at, since we're still figuring out things and disseminating the instruction for them.
@troygrady And thank you Troy for your team's work!
This is genius. that fast strum is what I can do now and again, but not consistently. Now I know how. Brb gotta go practice. Thanks!
That's the key! If you can get it sometimes and not others, that's the sig that you're onto something. I think of it like doing a skateboard trick.
@@troygrady Nice analogy! Certain skateboarding tricks are not going to work unless you setup your feet properly and generally someone has to show you that part... thanks again for lending your knowledge man!
I'm no speed demon but i can pick pretty fast consistently. After watching the vid i guess i fell into this picking style by accident years ago, trying to learn thrash speed chugs.
My old guitar teacher and i worked on technique plenty, but he's a jazz guy so we never really got into speed picking beyond scale runs with alternate picking.
Anyway, cool video. Thanks for making it so scientific!
Necessity is the mother of invention! Metal and punk players know what's up when it comes to fast motion.
I actually started off with the three finger pick grip, but changed to a two fingered grup once I realised that I can't quite do a trailing edge when playing guitar standing anyways, which prompted me to switch to leading edge picking. However I realised that while most players only use the tip of the index finger to hold the pick with the thumb I use almost half the index finger, which looking back, was almost a compromise for a three finger grip.
Right! Sounds like you were probably figuring out a way to get similar efficiency with an index grip.
What an absolute unbelievable one of a kind genius this man is
You should also take a look at Guthrie's fast funk style quadruplets, it would be a very nice insight.
Are you referring to his strumming motion? Yes, it's the same technique. We could have included him alongside Joscho Stephan and Roy Clark in the strumming section, for sure. It just didn't occur to me!
@@troygrady Yeah, specifically it's what he refers to as 'circus funk' : ruclips.net/video/mMPfYYE5CBE/видео.html
It did look like the same kind of motion , I just wanted to be sure so thanks for the reply. I'm still struggling to make it sound clean and consistent but I'll keep trying!
Damn it Troy, if there was a Nobel Prize for guitar I am pretty sure you would already have a few of those.
hands down best channel! thanks Troy.
Goddamit, I rarely comment in a video but this is really good.
Anatomy + IT + Guitar skills? OP
Thank you!
It's sort of similar to a whip , cracking ; where a wave of energy is transfered through a sort of universal joint and the final small intense fine motion is given extra energy with less local energy excess.
Hey Troy, have you considered flamenco style played without pick to be reverse dart thrower motion as well?
Those extreme speeds sound amazing!!!! Man so need to take note because I absolutely love that sound, I could listen to it for hours on end... Made me think of Anthrax and Agent Steel
It's super cool - sounds like a helicop[ter. And kind of surprising when you get it working.
Hmm, Shawn Lanes picking hand looked quite a bit like this at high speeds. Inverted thumb and all. Never noticed until now.
Yes! I think Shawn was a dart thrower player - i.e. not a reverse dart player. In other words, he used the inverse arm position and inverse axis of motion. Essentially same idea, just using the other diagonal axis.
Thanks for sharing this Troy! All you do is amazing and changing players lives!
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Wow, I am truly mind blown. I've been playing for 30 plus years and I could never attain the speeds that I wish to attain or the effortless in the clean picking between string and notes. I am blown away by this. Thank you so much. New subscriber here. I plan on binge watching the videos on your channel and possibly ordering your instructional videos. Where have you been my whole life?👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Awesome, thank you!
This totally works!!!! Im watching this at age 35 going where was this stuff 20 years ago :) but hey better late than never!!
Right on! What are you working on and what kind of results are you getting?
Aw, man. This 3-finger rotated grip is what I started with so many years ago, until I got some lessons and was told that was completely wrong, and I was going to have to re-learn the thumb and curled first finger pick grip. Now you tell me!
Everything was anecdotal back then. Guys says do this, other guy says do that. The three-finger thing isn't magic though and some players may be able to use a "tall mouse" form with an index grip if their fingers or palm are long enough. So there are still unknowns here. I would say test and see what works, while monitoring for what feels easy / comfortable.
I’m the same as you and am only just going back now and re-adopting some of things that I unlearnt because I was told by a black and white picture in a book printed in 1992 that it was wrong!
You mentioned that most of the people who use this motion use either a three finger grip on the pick, or a trailing edge grip (like how you were demonstrating with your picking in this video).
For people who are married to a more traditional leading edge grip, fear not - Andy Wood, who I believe is one of the people who really started to get Troy looking into the reverse dart thrower motion to begin with, performs all his picking with the more traditional grip.
Having experimented with it myself it does make the upstrokes a bit trickier because the pick experiences a bit more resistance compared to a trailing edge grip. But it most certainly is doable.
Andy uses sort of the "stage 1" of reverse dart, which is the flatter ergonomic mouse form. I can do this up to about 230 bpm or so and it doesn't feel as easy as the taller ergonomic mouse form. By comparison, 200 bpm with tall mouse form feels stupidly easy. This is tough because most of us, myself included, have much more experience with the index grip variety. For now I'm just leaving the door open to experimentation.
@@troygrady That makes sense, since the movement doesn't quite as well approximate the actual muscles that move the wrist.
I guess as long as you're aware of the limitations it's fine to pursue - 230bpm is plenty fast for a lot of genres of music!
These are all good observations. We still have questions about the "real" axes of wrist movement. For example, at that part of the animation, where we show the "ECU" muscle, that muscle by itself is actually a very close approximation of Andy's motion. The FCR is a very good approximation of the death metal motion. Is the "real" axis the average of the two, as we show? Or are there two "sweet spots" - the Andy one (fast) and the metal one (very fast)? We don't know! The thing is, now you know what we know, and you can do testing and see what you think.
@@troygrady I think the biggest reason I can think of for using Andy's technique (other than familiarity) is because it allows for easiest access to hybrid picking. Hard to do that with a more "high ergonomic mouse" movement.
That's true, and Andy himself has said this about why he uses his form.
woah, ive been playing like this since the start of my guitar journey and i always thought that my picking technique wasn't right
Amazing, Troy! Thank you very much for this!!!!
Thanks for watching!
Just stumbled across your channel... Pretty awesome sauce. Will be paying a lot of attention to your techniques
amazing! I wonder how we would pinch harmonic with it?
It's crazy the number of things I was doing right as a young teenager that my teachers made me stop doing. I've been relearning from Troy all of the things that came naturally and were taught out of me.
Very common story! Technique is complicated and not at all obvious.
Thanks for your great in-depth analysis. It seems to me that the USX version of this technique is basically the Benson picking; do you agree?
The best instruction on this topic! I like the scientific approach so much!
Wow amazing. Been playing around with this technique for a couple hours and realized that my form looks similar to the Gypsy jazz player. But then I tried to flatten my wrist toward the strings more and directed for palm muting the lower strings and noticed it’s very uncomfortable. Now I can’t work out how these guys palm mute with the fleshy part of the palm under the thumb, or if they mute in a different way!
A 60 year old Trailing Edge picker here. My once retarded picking grip by my old band mates and friends has now gained a new badge of honour 😀I could always DP quickly and now I know why. Even at 60 I am now going to push the BPM's. Great explanation of the Reverse Dart motion.
We all got the wrong messaging back in the day! One caveat, it's not the grip per se. It's that these grips enable a more "tall mouse" arm position, and that in turn enables the more "bird pecking" style of picking motion. And those are the joint motions that go faster. So it's really ultimately about the joint motion - the pick grip just lets you get into a comfortable spot with the arm to get that joint motion to work as a picking motion.
@@troygrady The whole mechanics of it all is fascinating. Very grateful for these video breakdowns and it’s definitely honing my playing and using my quirks as a benefit.
The human body definitely has some great little tricks up its sleeve that’s for sure.
Troy, I doubt you'll respond to my comments and will most likely delete them. Regardless, I think it's worth pointing out that the "reverse Dart Thrower technique", is in fact Roy Marchbanks "Hybrid Sarod Technique", which Roy has been demonstrating and promoting on RUclips and various other platforms for years.
I find it very interesting that players like Dweezil Zappa and even Steve Vai will publicly acknowledge Roys playing abilities and technique. Yet there's nothing but radio silence from you, (somebody who is so hyper focused on picking technique), when it comes to Roy Marchbank.
Why is that, Troy?
Furthermore, how is it that you'll openly state in the comment replies that Roys technique is featured in this video, but then use your own term for it instead?
I look forward to your reply, however I'm doubtful I'll receive one.
Awesome content, as always. But I never see any talk about his tone. Troy's high gain tones are awesome. I'd like to know what your signal chain looks like in these clips too!
Just the usual Cornford Hellcat. I actually think for extreme metal stuff like this it's not quite right - the super modern amps give you that gun-like chug on the muted notes. The Hellcat doesn't do that. If I were doing more metal stuff I would probably pick up something more hi gain / modern. For everything else though the Hellcat is great.
@@troygrady oh, for sure. But your tones always sound great, and I've always wondered what you're playing through. Thanks for responding!
been loving your stuff since the start... the way I pick is in my THUMB... i bending my thumb gives me and up stroke and straightening my thumb gives me a down stroke ( this is more noticeable on one string) this also by nature incorporates two way pick slanting....
the way i came up with this was from thinking picking parallel to the strings was what was causing me to break them but it was a sharp saddle on a cheap squire strat :P funny how things work
So many breakthroughs start as accidents or misperceptions. Embrace the chaos!
Is Troy still making YT videos.
These are incredible…
Adopted this picking style from watching Steve Lukather play. He is a master at it.
HUGE cool points for that clip of Roy Clark from "The Odd Couple"...imo his finest recorded live performance (that I've seen anyway)
Roy was amazing!
Digging in! Are you able to use this technique with EJ style licks (I imagine the fret hand might be the limit here)? I have found my pick arm willing/wanting me to go into a position like I see with Joscho Stephan, but at too great of an angle I lose control. Time to experiment.
This technique is a DSX technique specifically so you would need to start EJ lines on upstrokes. Which means you won't have the downstroke sweeps you need for things like the EJ fives pattern. Also, as you're pointing out, almost nobody will be able to actually fret 2nps lines past a certain speed. Shawn Lane was probably the best at this but he would still have limits that are far lower than his limits for his 3nps and 4nps fretting. Also, Shawn was a dart (i.e. non-reverse) player, so his motion was inverted compared to this one. It was USX, and he could use the original EJ picking patterns including the downstroke sweeping. Different arm position / motion / etc. but similar concept.
20:04 If I apply the same principles, can I have UpStroke Scape using dart Thrower just as I have DownStroke Scape using the Reverse dart thrower??
could it be just as effective? what about wrist position?
Good question. I think there are two options. (1) Maximum speed DSX + mixed escape phrases (including one note per string) using zero-degree pickslant form, and (2) Continuous USX tremolo, only suitable for USX lines, with no mixed escape, using DWPS form. You can see an example of (1) at 16:40. You can use option (1) to play things like Paul Gilbert lines or even Steve Morse lines. However if you want Yngwie or Eric Johnson lines, which depend on USX tremolo with downstroke sweeping, you need option (2), and you must use a slightly different arm position and grip for this. And at that point, you can't play the same lines as option (1). Also your maximum speed might be lower because the USX motion is not as close to the "true" reverse dart axis. This is what I think is going on. Think of them like two different languages. Use the form that best fits the music you are playing.
@@troygrady thanks man. you have been always helpful and I have improved a lot following your investigations
Can’t wait to see a deep dive playlist of vids dedicated to Matteo Mancuso unique approach to guitar picks
Would a Frisbee throw be a good description of a reverse dart throw motion?
Great question. It depends! With a supinated forearm position, frisbee would be dart - basically the reverse of a clubbing motion. With a pronated forearm position, frisbee would be reverse dart. However you're right that it's probably one of the two diagonal axes since those are the powerful ones.
Unbelievable ! Thanks Troy and crew!
Hey Troy this is a really stunning piece of work. However I have something in mind, I feel like the dart throwing motion can be easier for hyper supinator people, for example, I have a very good pronation movement so it’s really hard for me to do wrist extension but I’m very confortable with cupping. Does it apply here ? I mean being hyper pronator can I do the rêver dart throwing motion be reverse like by cupping ? Greeting me from France
Never thought in a million years I would be going back to a trailing edge grip! But after seeing Troy's intro, I may have to for rhythm alone
You can use both / all. Just more tools for the toolbox!
@@troygrady Yes for sure, thanks Troy!