Im in the same boat. My finger strenght is way above my climbing grade. I also came to the realization that my shoulder strength is holding me back as well as my posterior change. I like your simple routine tho! Keep it up!
I'm doing some of these too. Although my finger strength is actually weak for my grade, so hangboarding more. I can also recommend the weighted frog from the same video. Hope it will get me some grades too!
Yeah the frog is too hard for me atm, and I like the idea of not going straight to the hardest progression cos if easier things r eliciting growth than I can save it for when I’m stronger
Great Video ! I have personally done V13 outside but like you my training stats indicate i should be able to do more. Recently i ruptured a pulley, so with more time in the gym and less on the wall, I realized the issue might have something to do with my shoulders being undertrained. Currently working on that to !!
I’m sorry to hear abt the pulley man, I definitely want to make another video proposing the case of why u don’t need crazy finger strength (injury risk to reward ratio) and I’d love to get some of ur thoughts abt it, I wish u a speedy recovery! I’m currently interested in working on Roses and Bluejays v13 but bc I’m just in the US for uni, I don’t really know what other hard boulders there are around the area. My friends just point and I go climb it haha
@ haha nice ! Yeah just try some boulders and I’m sure once you find the right one to project you can take it down ! I understood that getting to boulders depending on where you live in the us can be a challenge haha
Might be seeing it wrong due to low lighting in the pancake demonstration, but it seems like you’re not properly hinging from your hip and mostly rounding through your back. You’re doing them extremely deep, so either you have god tier hamstring flexibility, or you’re overcompensating through your lower back. The clip of Aidan you have before your segment shows the correct form, slight arch in the back, full hinge at the hip, aiming for a horizontal torso for maximal torque. Cool video ❤️
haha i was waiting for someone to point that out in the comments, but basically i hinge as far as my hip complex allows me to with a straight back and then go a bit further to really feel the stretch on my hamstrings. if u look at my lumbar vertebrates, they are paralleled with the floor, so if i were to keep my back straight id be essentially be like aiden's demo, but with the whole recent literature on optimal muscle hypertrophy concluding that having the most force vectors at the fully stretched position of the muscle allows for maximal stimulation for muscle growth, so hence the extra deeper flexion of my torso. but yeah thankyou for pointing that out so others could be more mindful of that too 🙏
I think the point of the exercise is hip flexion and hip extension, if you loose position in your lower back you are just bending and extending the lower back, not the hips. Which is kinda pointless if the goal is to get greater hip mobility and strength. Maybe try to focus more on your upper back position, if your chest caves in and the upper back rounds, like in your video, the lower back will follow and round.. Focus on keeping a strong stable upper back and don't flex your spine. If you really only want to train the hamstrings and glutes, this would be a sub-optimal exercise selection anyway.
@@meneerjaap i don't think its pointless, the extra flexion i do bc of a personal anatomical preferance is enabling more hamstring stretch, creating a very important hypertrophic stimulation, based on the most recent meta-analysises. u did say it urself, I'm not training to be the best hip flexor athlete, the training got me to v12 (v10 flash for the title was better for youtube), im just training to be the best climber i can be. in the end, im sure ur obviously not trying to put others down, and u commented to maximize the gains/prevented injuries i couldve had from the exercises' and i appreciate it, but i also think its easy to get fixated on the hyperoptimization of general biomechanical vectors of an exercise for the general public and not see the case by case specialization movement could be adapted to yknow
Fair point! If it works, it works! What would you attribute the jump in grades to if you'd have to specify it precisely? Was is hamstring strength? Gluten strength? Did you feel stronger on the wall or maybe just more powerful? I'm honestly interested to hear! And really curious about the shoulder strength increase and what your baseline was. In comparison I think my fingers are always weakest. What's your finger strength at right now? @@bao.ng04
@@bao.ng04going deeper by rounding your back doesn’t further stretch your hamstrings - they attach at the pelvis. What you’re feeling is actually the nerve stretching, which can be beneficial but you’d be better off doing nerve glides to improve that rather than rounding your back in the pancakes
I think I might add the dumbbell workout to my training routine it seems like a smart idea to keep closer to the wall. Either option should help but I only have dumbells
I have played basketball before climbing and I didnt understand why climbers dont deadlift. It checks so many boxes. From what I can tell is how you do pancakes its realy demending on the bottom of the move since you place weigth far away from your glutes and. When you at the top force required is realy minimal. You should complement it with something like hipthrust. Pancake works posterior chain while also realy stretching those thigh adductors. If you want to have same effect try frog hipthrust. I am comming back to climbing and I also saw benefit from rotator cuff exercises. Keep in mind when you do them on trx is hard to keep track of how much you improved. Also with dumbells you can work them while your torso is vertical (highest force in the middle of the move) or lay down on bench (highest force on the top of move).
You make all very valid points, however, I think it’s pretty easy to fall into the trap of trying to optimize training in the sense of tradition muscle hyper trophy too much and not caring abt the climbing, I’m a firm believer u get good at whatever u spend a lot of time training with, and i wanna be a really good climber, not pancake-er hahaha. But also I think the avoidance of traditional deadlifts could probably be our fear of gaining unnecessary weight in places that don’t contribute as directly to climbing, but pancakes should act as a supplemental exercise, so as soon as I start seeing detriments due to muscle gain, I’ll adjust accordingly. The face pulls wise, yes u could get more stimulation and tension with dumbbells lying down, but i do the face pulls cos it mimics climbing on a wall the most accurately, and for progression i have a piece of tape on the floor to know where i put my feet and the rings stay in the same spot, i add more reps or move my feet away and it’ll make the exercise harder
@bao.ng04 Yes you are right. However if you dont eat in high caloric surplus you won't get weigth. However when now I think about it - DL are realy demmending on nervous system and high level climbers probably want to use it on pullups and powerfull finger exercises and just climbing. You should consider however force vectors and the best exercises are those which use force directly oposite direction of your movement (like pullups). Keep in mind when you dont use machines resisting force is always the same way (gravity), so when you do 45 deg face pulls you are not using force the most optimal way. For instance using forces 90deg to gravity is almost useless. Sory for my nad english. Dont give me wrong you are on climbing level I won't Reach fast but when you consider adding muscle - just like you said, add them in angles you use in your sports or they will keep you away from injuries.
I may not be a great climber but I agree that deadlifting is a really important exercise for climbers. I don’t want to overgeneralize but there does seem to be an aversion to lifting in climbing due to what it takes away from the wall and what Bao said about weight gain. But lifting is supplemental it doesn’t have to be long just the big 3 and some shoulder stuff is usually enough. A pro climber I see do this is Zach Richardson he deadlifts and trains pistol squats all the time (idk if he does bench) and if you were to look at his physique he is not walking around with really big legs but they are very strong from probably and as a pro in sure he’s watching his caloric intake to avoid the issue of “gaining in unwanted spots”. Really enjoyed the video btw
@@NoahJames003 i watch zach richardson a lot actually, and most of my training is a derivative of his but tailored for myself. I think you make a convincing point about giving exmaple athletes who deadlift and still climb hard, but i think with the main thing is its working well for me and i don't want to fall down the rabbit hole of over optimizing when things are good and im progressing fast. I got a nice thing and I'm gonna keep it goin. but thankyou for the kind words! i really appreciate it!
Yea I'm sure you've put a lot of thought and care into your programming so as long as you enjoy what you doing and there's progress you'll probably end up in a good spot
Epic progress! I feel like im the other way around, I have stronger shoulders and back muscles but my fingers are very weak. I will say for sure that I focused on getting stronger shoulders last year and really saw the sam effect you say in the vid 🔥
Aye I was thinking abt making a finger strength video because I know there’s a whole other population like urself and myself previously that had the same issue, despite me not training like that anymore it did get me to v16 finger strength and no matter what level you are u could need more strength. U think people would be interested in smt like that?
I like would be able to flash a soft commercial gym v8 once in a blue moon and like occasionally be able to climb v9’s on the kilter board. But after the program I’d be able to climb v10’s, v11’s and 12 in a day but I just thought v10 flash was a better RUclips title!
Yeah, I thought I had said smt in the video but I guess I just completely forgot to read that part of the script maybe? But I like would be able to flash a soft commercial gym v8 once in a blue moon and like occasionally be able to climb v9’s on the kilter board. But after the program I’d be able to climb v10’s, v11’s and 12 in a day but I just thought v10 flash was a better RUclips title!
The finger strength makes me envious. For the face pulls: How would you advice to intensify them, or is it better to switch to rotator cuffs exercises with weights when you can do them easily a lot?
currently I just progress them by adding 1 more rep to each set i do every time i train them, however it gets to a point where u do a ridiculous amount of reps, so i just most my feet forward a bit and it loads more of my body weight on the exercise. I like facepulls more than the weights cause it simulates actual climbing the more, but adding weight on the rotator cuff exercise is also perfectly valid
@@bao.ng04 I’m in the exact opposite boat. I’ve got ridiculous shoulder strength and am waiting for my fingers to catch up. I do facepulls with dumbbells, laying on an adjustable bench set as shallow as I can without limiting rom. This lets me ramp the intensity much farther than you can ever get with Trx, bands, or cables while still keeping a highly climbing specific movement.
I know someone’s alr answered this, but yt studio shows all the comments I haven’t replied to an it’s been bugging me. So I’m replying smt now haha, I wish u the best with your climbing journey too!
I started off with 3 sets of 10, and then a increase by 1 rep every time I do them again. I think 2-3 times a week is a good frequency. But adjust depending on how much or little it affect ur climbing
A year ago, it was 207% body weight on 20mm so 145.9lbs or 66kg added. But I’ve sacrificed all that bc it actually doesn’t matter how much u can hang if u can’t utilize any of it, and before the training it was 15lbs on 15mm but the progression i make i can see improvements in my climbing strength
+15 lbs on two hands or one? If 2 hands then that seems like a crazy difference from your 20 mm strength - were you using the chisel grip (extra friction at the DIP joint) instead of strict half crimp on the 20?
2 hands, the 145lb was chisel and the 15lbs was half crimp, i think i could probably do more with half crimp but i want to keep really strict form and i still see progression with that light of weight so there's no reason for me to up the weight and increase the injury risk u know
Thanks for sharing! What was your flash grade before you started the training? Did you feel like you were at a plateau before this training, or were you progressing without it too?
i could flash like a soft or weird v8 once in a blue moon before the training, and i was progressing like any younger into-climbing athlete would be progressing at. But pretty early into the training i would be doing moves and getting super shocked i was still on the wall, and that was how my climbing was for like the second half of the training.
i honestly had more progression that v10 flash, like i almost did an outdoor v12 in a sess, but v10 flash was a better youtube title haha, but thankyou so much for the support
Yes I know if the video my form was a little weird but I do not intend to hurt myself, I appreciate ur care! There’s another comment abt my pancake form where I go in depth abt my it looks that that if ur interested to read it!
Exactly! U don’t need off the wall training to climb hard. But I think my justification is that training gets u where regular climbing can but so much faster, I sent the v11 sit extension of the v10 a session after. And recently almost did a v12 in a day too! But I think having an abundant of finger strength sets u up to progress faster since u don’t need to spend time training it but just learning how to utilize it more efficiently, which takes less time. After all I’ve only been climbing for around 3.5 years!
i See why you wouldn't want to use the external rotation with a dumbbell, but think about it. the strength curve of a cuban rotation and a face pull is the opposite. id go for doing both and doing the one im worse at a little more. I have gotten my cuban rotation to 10kg for 10 reps and it's the best thing for my shoulder health. I suggest you try getting really good at cuban rotations, I think you could benefit from them.
I can understand that, but I think that u get good at what u spend a lot of time training, and I don’t want to get good at Cuban rotations I want to get good at climbing, and the facepulls are working for me really well and I don’t really see I need to add anything until I slow down or plateau yknow
Im in the same boat. My finger strenght is way above my climbing grade. I also came to the realization that my shoulder strength is holding me back as well as my posterior change. I like your simple routine tho! Keep it up!
thankyou! I hope ur training helps you utilize ur finger strength more too
Goated at both climbing n making/editing quality videos. man is the whole production 🔥
Hahah thankyou for ur support hun can’t do it w/o u
I'm doing some of these too. Although my finger strength is actually weak for my grade, so hangboarding more. I can also recommend the weighted frog from the same video. Hope it will get me some grades too!
Yeah the frog is too hard for me atm, and I like the idea of not going straight to the hardest progression cos if easier things r eliciting growth than I can save it for when I’m stronger
Great Video ! I have personally done V13 outside but like you my training stats indicate i should be able to do more. Recently i ruptured a pulley, so with more time in the gym and less on the wall, I realized the issue might have something to do with my shoulders being undertrained. Currently working on that to !!
I’m sorry to hear abt the pulley man, I definitely want to make another video proposing the case of why u don’t need crazy finger strength (injury risk to reward ratio) and I’d love to get some of ur thoughts abt it, I wish u a speedy recovery! I’m currently interested in working on Roses and Bluejays v13 but bc I’m just in the US for uni, I don’t really know what other hard boulders there are around the area. My friends just point and I go climb it haha
@ haha nice ! Yeah just try some boulders and I’m sure once you find the right one to project you can take it down ! I understood that getting to boulders depending on where you live in the us can be a challenge haha
where do you find those training stats ?
Might be seeing it wrong due to low lighting in the pancake demonstration, but it seems like you’re not properly hinging from your hip and mostly rounding through your back. You’re doing them extremely deep, so either you have god tier hamstring flexibility, or you’re overcompensating through your lower back. The clip of Aidan you have before your segment shows the correct form, slight arch in the back, full hinge at the hip, aiming for a horizontal torso for maximal torque. Cool video ❤️
haha i was waiting for someone to point that out in the comments, but basically i hinge as far as my hip complex allows me to with a straight back and then go a bit further to really feel the stretch on my hamstrings. if u look at my lumbar vertebrates, they are paralleled with the floor, so if i were to keep my back straight id be essentially be like aiden's demo, but with the whole recent literature on optimal muscle hypertrophy concluding that having the most force vectors at the fully stretched position of the muscle allows for maximal stimulation for muscle growth, so hence the extra deeper flexion of my torso. but yeah thankyou for pointing that out so others could be more mindful of that too 🙏
I think the point of the exercise is hip flexion and hip extension, if you loose position in your lower back you are just bending and extending the lower back, not the hips. Which is kinda pointless if the goal is to get greater hip mobility and strength. Maybe try to focus more on your upper back position, if your chest caves in and the upper back rounds, like in your video, the lower back will follow and round.. Focus on keeping a strong stable upper back and don't flex your spine. If you really only want to train the hamstrings and glutes, this would be a sub-optimal exercise selection anyway.
@@meneerjaap i don't think its pointless, the extra flexion i do bc of a personal anatomical preferance is enabling more hamstring stretch, creating a very important hypertrophic stimulation, based on the most recent meta-analysises.
u did say it urself, I'm not training to be the best hip flexor athlete, the training got me to v12 (v10 flash for the title was better for youtube), im just training to be the best climber i can be. in the end, im sure ur obviously not trying to put others down, and u commented to maximize the gains/prevented injuries i couldve had from the exercises' and i appreciate it, but i also think its easy to get fixated on the hyperoptimization of general biomechanical vectors of an exercise for the general public and not see the case by case specialization movement could be adapted to yknow
Fair point! If it works, it works! What would you attribute the jump in grades to if you'd have to specify it precisely? Was is hamstring strength? Gluten strength? Did you feel stronger on the wall or maybe just more powerful? I'm honestly interested to hear! And really curious about the shoulder strength increase and what your baseline was. In comparison I think my fingers are always weakest. What's your finger strength at right now? @@bao.ng04
@@bao.ng04going deeper by rounding your back doesn’t further stretch your hamstrings - they attach at the pelvis. What you’re feeling is actually the nerve stretching, which can be beneficial but you’d be better off doing nerve glides to improve that rather than rounding your back in the pancakes
the title had me thinking you just started climbing and flashed v10 in a month...i was about to quit (not really)
Hahahahah definitely not, I’ve been climbing for 3.5years, climbing up to my fourth pretty soon
I think I might add the dumbbell workout to my training routine it seems like a smart idea to keep closer to the wall. Either option should help but I only have dumbells
I like to lay on my side doing them for constant tension through the rotatorcuff.
I do the face pulls cause it mimics climbing the most all are effective at training external rotation just whatever works best for you
I have played basketball before climbing and I didnt understand why climbers dont deadlift. It checks so many boxes. From what I can tell is how you do pancakes its realy demending on the bottom of the move since you place weigth far away from your glutes and. When you at the top force required is realy minimal. You should complement it with something like hipthrust. Pancake works posterior chain while also realy stretching those thigh adductors. If you want to have same effect try frog hipthrust. I am comming back to climbing and I also saw benefit from rotator cuff exercises. Keep in mind when you do them on trx is hard to keep track of how much you improved. Also with dumbells you can work them while your torso is vertical (highest force in the middle of the move) or lay down on bench (highest force on the top of move).
You make all very valid points, however, I think it’s pretty easy to fall into the trap of trying to optimize training in the sense of tradition muscle hyper trophy too much and not caring abt the climbing, I’m a firm believer u get good at whatever u spend a lot of time training with, and i wanna be a really good climber, not pancake-er hahaha. But also I think the avoidance of traditional deadlifts could probably be our fear of gaining unnecessary weight in places that don’t contribute as directly to climbing, but pancakes should act as a supplemental exercise, so as soon as I start seeing detriments due to muscle gain, I’ll adjust accordingly. The face pulls wise, yes u could get more stimulation and tension with dumbbells lying down, but i do the face pulls cos it mimics climbing on a wall the most accurately, and for progression i have a piece of tape on the floor to know where i put my feet and the rings stay in the same spot, i add more reps or move my feet away and it’ll make the exercise harder
@bao.ng04 Yes you are right. However if you dont eat in high caloric surplus you won't get weigth. However when now I think about it - DL are realy demmending on nervous system and high level climbers probably want to use it on pullups and powerfull finger exercises and just climbing. You should consider however force vectors and the best exercises are those which use force directly oposite direction of your movement (like pullups). Keep in mind when you dont use machines resisting force is always the same way (gravity), so when you do 45 deg face pulls you are not using force the most optimal way. For instance using forces 90deg to gravity is almost useless. Sory for my nad english. Dont give me wrong you are on climbing level I won't Reach fast but when you consider adding muscle - just like you said, add them in angles you use in your sports or they will keep you away from injuries.
I may not be a great climber but I agree that deadlifting is a really important exercise for climbers. I don’t want to overgeneralize but there does seem to be an aversion to lifting in climbing due to what it takes away from the wall and what Bao said about weight gain. But lifting is supplemental it doesn’t have to be long just the big 3 and some shoulder stuff is usually enough. A pro climber I see do this is Zach Richardson he deadlifts and trains pistol squats all the time (idk if he does bench) and if you were to look at his physique he is not walking around with really big legs but they are very strong from probably and as a pro in sure he’s watching his caloric intake to avoid the issue of “gaining in unwanted spots”. Really enjoyed the video btw
@@NoahJames003 i watch zach richardson a lot actually, and most of my training is a derivative of his but tailored for myself. I think you make a convincing point about giving exmaple athletes who deadlift and still climb hard, but i think with the main thing is its working well for me and i don't want to fall down the rabbit hole of over optimizing when things are good and im progressing fast. I got a nice thing and I'm gonna keep it goin. but thankyou for the kind words! i really appreciate it!
Yea I'm sure you've put a lot of thought and care into your programming so as long as you enjoy what you doing and there's progress you'll probably end up in a good spot
Epic progress! I feel like im the other way around, I have stronger shoulders and back muscles but my fingers are very weak. I will say for sure that I focused on getting stronger shoulders last year and really saw the sam effect you say in the vid 🔥
Aye I was thinking abt making a finger strength video because I know there’s a whole other population like urself and myself previously that had the same issue, despite me not training like that anymore it did get me to v16 finger strength and no matter what level you are u could need more strength. U think people would be interested in smt like that?
THE GOAT HAS DROPPED 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥❗️❗️
Hahaha thanks Bach
correlation != causation
No for sure, but I was progressing at a very predictable pace for a while, and then doing these led to a rly big jump
Very impressive! What was your starting point grade wise when you started this training?
I like would be able to flash a soft commercial gym v8 once in a blue moon and like occasionally be able to climb v9’s on the kilter board. But after the program I’d be able to climb v10’s, v11’s and 12 in a day but I just thought v10 flash was a better RUclips title!
Its unfortunate that you did not mention at what grade u started before starting to incorporate new workout techniques
Yeah, I thought I had said smt in the video but I guess I just completely forgot to read that part of the script maybe? But I like would be able to flash a soft commercial gym v8 once in a blue moon and like occasionally be able to climb v9’s on the kilter board. But after the program I’d be able to climb v10’s, v11’s and 12 in a day but I just thought v10 flash was a better RUclips title!
@@bao.ng04 from v9 to v12 is really sick dude, thanks for sharing
How often did you do these in a week and how many reps/ sets? Thanks!
I’ll normally do them 2-3 things a week, for 15 reps X 3sets
I am curious. About what grades were you flashing before this training program?
I could like flash the occasional v8 in the gym and maybe like a couple V8’s on the kilter board. But I’d still have to day project v9’s n stuff
The finger strength makes me envious. For the face pulls: How would you advice to intensify them, or is it better to switch to rotator cuffs exercises with weights when you can do them easily a lot?
currently I just progress them by adding 1 more rep to each set i do every time i train them, however it gets to a point where u do a ridiculous amount of reps, so i just most my feet forward a bit and it loads more of my body weight on the exercise. I like facepulls more than the weights cause it simulates actual climbing the more, but adding weight on the rotator cuff exercise is also perfectly valid
Combo is probably good
@@bao.ng04 I’m in the exact opposite boat. I’ve got ridiculous shoulder strength and am waiting for my fingers to catch up. I do facepulls with dumbbells, laying on an adjustable bench set as shallow as I can without limiting rom. This lets me ramp the intensity much farther than you can ever get with Trx, bands, or cables while still keeping a highly climbing specific movement.
Hey man, congrats on the improvement! What video did you take Aidan's training clips from?
The Lattice training video: "How to Get Better at Small Crimps - The Vacuum Style Ft. Aidan Roberts"
@@RedomZzz Thanks mate!
I know someone’s alr answered this, but yt studio shows all the comments I haven’t replied to an it’s been bugging me. So I’m replying smt now haha, I wish u the best with your climbing journey too!
@@bao.ng04 lmao I keep clicking the bell too. Thanks bro
What grade did you climb pre training
Hardest thing I sent was v8 outdoors
How many reps and sets do you do for each exercise and how many times a week do you recommend doing them?
I started off with 3 sets of 10, and then a increase by 1 rep every time I do them again. I think 2-3 times a week is a good frequency. But adjust depending on how much or little it affect ur climbing
@ thanks man
What was your max hangs before starting this training?
A year ago, it was 207% body weight on 20mm so 145.9lbs or 66kg added. But I’ve sacrificed all that bc it actually doesn’t matter how much u can hang if u can’t utilize any of it, and before the training it was 15lbs on 15mm but the progression i make i can see improvements in my climbing strength
+15 lbs on two hands or one? If 2 hands then that seems like a crazy difference from your 20 mm strength - were you using the chisel grip (extra friction at the DIP joint) instead of strict half crimp on the 20?
2 hands, the 145lb was chisel and the 15lbs was half crimp, i think i could probably do more with half crimp but i want to keep really strict form and i still see progression with that light of weight so there's no reason for me to up the weight and increase the injury risk u know
Thanks for sharing!
What was your flash grade before you started the training? Did you feel like you were at a plateau before this training, or were you progressing without it too?
i could flash like a soft or weird v8 once in a blue moon before the training, and i was progressing like any younger into-climbing athlete would be progressing at. But pretty early into the training i would be doing moves and getting super shocked i was still on the wall, and that was how my climbing was for like the second half of the training.
Nice. Amazing progress over just a month. Congrats!
i honestly had more progression that v10 flash, like i almost did an outdoor v12 in a sess, but v10 flash was a better youtube title haha, but thankyou so much for the support
Watch your back on that weighted pancake
Yes I know if the video my form was a little weird but I do not intend to hurt myself, I appreciate ur care! There’s another comment abt my pancake form where I go in depth abt my it looks that that if ur interested to read it!
I’ve never even done any sort of training on a hangboard yet and I’m at V11
Exactly! U don’t need off the wall training to climb hard. But I think my justification is that training gets u where regular climbing can but so much faster, I sent the v11 sit extension of the v10 a session after. And recently almost did a v12 in a day too! But I think having an abundant of finger strength sets u up to progress faster since u don’t need to spend time training it but just learning how to utilize it more efficiently, which takes less time. After all I’ve only been climbing for around 3.5 years!
I’ve only climbed 3 months and I sent a v13. No hangboarding or anything.
Cap
@@smugcoffee8090 what sports did u do before climbing?
Esports. I played halo. It got my fingers strong
i See why you wouldn't want to use the external rotation with a dumbbell, but think about it. the strength curve of a cuban rotation and a face pull is the opposite.
id go for doing both and doing the one im worse at a little more.
I have gotten my cuban rotation to 10kg for 10 reps and it's the best thing for my shoulder health.
I suggest you try getting really good at cuban rotations, I think you could benefit from them.
I can understand that, but I think that u get good at what u spend a lot of time training, and I don’t want to get good at Cuban rotations I want to get good at climbing, and the facepulls are working for me really well and I don’t really see I need to add anything until I slow down or plateau yknow