Well summarised. The 1. reason for the “arm on every lug” is minimising unwanted resonance. The centre trigger vibrates after every hit, that leads to unwanted trigger signals from both head and rim piezos. It basically distorts the otherwise clean signal. Second reason is stability: A bar (Especially that thing from Jobeky) bents on every hit. The pickup moves downwards on every hit. Signal is disturbed even more. So you try to adjust this in the module by cancelling retriggering etc, until the pickup range is so much limited that you cannot play very soft hits, not fast hits after each other. If Jobeky would at least use a U-shaped profile like R-drums does, the result would be better. I would have categorised the triggers even more, into: Quality triggers and “DIY solutions out of tool shop parts”. The Roland RT-Triggers, R-Drums Triggers and DDT Triggers are quality solutions. While the rest is just a Saturday afternoon project, labelled as “product”.
I just wanted to thank you for all the great, informative videos. I'm currently in the process of converting my acoustic set to electronic (because I like being on the good side of my neighbors), and both your channel and Vdrum Tips have been great places for all the info I didn't know. I would have never even attempted the conversion until I started watching all the great tips and explanations on here. Keep up the awesome work!
Perfect!! 👌🏻 Excellent information, it's only 15 min, but it requires so much time, experience and attemps to learn all of that. It is also perfectly explained!! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I recently converted my acoustic drums to electric. Mesh heads in everything with Roland triggers. Everything plugged into a Ddrum DDTI interface, midi out into my laptop, running on ezdrummer software. It's great in terms of being able to practice at any hour without disturbing anyone, BUT it really takes a lot of time fine tuning everything. Getting the proper head tension, cross talk, retrigger, threshold, sensitivity settings, everything. I've had it for over a month and I'm still making adjustments from time to time. It's a real pain to get everything working the way you want, but once you get it, it's pretty awesome.
Like other commenters I just want to thank you for putting out these videos! They are so informative and helpful for learning about every aspect of Edrums. I frequented your channel a lot in 2019 when I was deciding what kit to buy (I ended up getting a td17 kvx) but now want to convert an acoustic kit and I feel like you have video for every question I could ever have about it!
If you're handy triggers are fairly easy to assemble. I made a center mount with 2 slotted 90 degree brackets and a shelf bracket I had laying around. Got a Pintech trigger with 1/4 jack for $18 on Amazon. Dirt cheap floor tom and works great even with a 1 ply Silentstroke head though I would recommend 2 ply if possible. Wood crossbars would work too and be easy to make.
I have an internal side mount from a company called Convertible Percussions. It works flawless. Very little tweaking needed when I used it with a Roland module.
I sold the RT30 and made a Convertible Percussions snare. All functions work well including positional sensing. Great prices and solid simple construction.
Very good info all u need to know . Anyone know on the internal side mounted triggers what the distance is from the shell? Fie exampke, Is it the same distance as top mounted triggers like Roland and yamaha?
I use the Pintech internal trigger bars and they work great! I converted my old Pearl Export set from 1980. I also use a TD-9 module with the Ddrum DDTI trigger interface triggering EZDrummer 2.
Great video - much valuable information. I can see you demonstrated the drum module adjustments on a Roland T-30. Would love to see adjustment capabilities demonstrated on a variety of brands / models. Maybe do a round-up of all the different models of drum modules and their pros/cons. Thank you for your efforts.
Hi Justin, just found this video. Have you ever discussed about compatibility between drum trigger and module? Like drum trigger x can be compatible with which drum module, and vice versa?
Excellent video ! I just bought a Megadrum module, it does the positional sensing unlike the DDrum DDTI ,also 3 zone cymbals and a bunch of inputs (56) ! Very promising.
thank you very much for the video, very useful to get an exact idea. I am using an old, but still functional ROLAND TD-8 module for the rehearsal room, I am using the ROLAND dual RT-30 triggers, but I am not completely satisfied, I find the way of fixing on the snare rim and with the time creates unwanted vibrations and sounds. What would you use, considering the TD-8 module? Thank you
I used the stick on type in the early 90s. For me the worked PERFECTLY. Never any problems. triggered acoustic drums into an Alesis D4. Good times. Wish I still had that setup. super easy. Hybrid electric kits are my favorite. 100% electric is WAY too sterile.
Hey justin i love your channal and you are making mee goot feel to make a conversion. (Sorry fire my bad englisch i am from swiss and not the best writer. Hahah) I have a problem that my triggera v3 settings not the best can you help mee out? My rim triggers not so good i wone have a rim sound and a head sound what can i doo in the settings? And a other question. Can you help mee ore make a video how to do triggersettings in the td27 for the triggera v3. Thanks i hope you can help mee out! Love your channel!❤️
I have silentstroke head and use foam padding and that seems to do the trick. No retriggering and perfect response for buzz rolls even. Do I therefore even need Roland two or three ply??
There are also the Yamaha die-cast & chromed rim-mount triggers, which IMO, have the best aesthetic of all the rim-mount triggers :) How about a video-visit to edrums of the 'past'...some of which can still cut-it in the real-world, the Clavia Ddrum 4 for instance ;-) They can also be had for very little money, for those on a budget. In the past I've owned the Alesis DM Pro & DM 5, the Yamaha TMX, Simmons SDS9, Yamaha DTXtreme (I & II), Yamaha DTXpress, etc etc ad infinitum.
Hey Justin! Great video!!! I totally did not know about the mask time witch will help me a lot. I sometimes have the issue you mentioned with the kick triggering that "beater bounce". Thanks!:)
I love your reviews I’m going to convert my acoustics! I just have one suggestion that you update your backdrop. The paneling reminds me of my parents old house in 1968. I’ve been looks nice is just no modern. So I’m not criticizing it I’m just suggesting something cooler..lol
Very informative video Justin. Do you think the 'hot-spotting" issue with a centre-mounted trigger would be resolved by positioning it offset - somewhere mid-way between the centre and that part of the rim furthest from the drummer? That area of the head is unlikely to get a direct hit and the resultant spike.
Great info Justin!! I really want to have a real drum conversion, i do have some ALESIS DM10MKII drums hat I’m using right now, the triggers inside looks great or at least more complicated design that the ones from other brands, but I never test other ones, what do you think is better? Take apart the DM10MKII drums and put that triggers inside the new shells with some DIY bars in to the lugs..... Or just buy ITM2 triggers, what do you think will trigger better, with more Dinamics? Thanks!! I really enjoy all your videos!!
Hey Justin and everyone. Have you used Extreme Drums drum triggers? I found them online and talked to Marshall who is the owner I believe. Very nice guy. Just wanted to see if anyone has tried them out and how good they are. Thanks! Josh
Thank you, really appreciate your content!! Have you ever tried to tape an acoustic head to make it thicker? I was thinking maybe it would improve triggering performance like three-ply mesh heads or something
Awesome video, but I have a maybe odd question. I just bought a Roland SPD-SX with a RT-30K kick trigger. If I wanted to practice using that setup, is there a way I can set up the kick trigger on something (quieter) other than my bass drum?
What works best for triggering on an acoustic drum kit. In other words, triggering off of mylar heads to use live for mixing the actual acoustic sound of the drums with electronic sounds from a module or some such source? I have no interest in using mesh heads.
The dual snare triggers....does this mean you get a clear difference between a rim click alone, and a rim shot along with the snare? Do they require 2 cables
I found I am getting dead spots with the Drum-Tec 'Real Feel' three ply on my Drum-Tec Jam snare pad as compared to the 'Design' two ply ??? With side triggers...
I kinda like the lap type sound source idea. I have no idea which way to go. I need someone to tell me what’s best. I have 7 pc Tama drum kit, not counting cymbals.
There are non-permanent "contact gels" (used with medical "T.E.N.S. units) for attaching therapeutic contact pads to skin. Appling this gel to the contact sensor greatly improves transference efficiency between trigger and head/shell.
Hey 65Drums! So you explained how to use the triggers with a Module like the one you showed with Roland. But how do you edit the triggering in a softwair like Superior Drummer 3?
Made my own centre mount trigger (not a drummer but more a techie) on a Roland TD-11 and tbh my homemade trigger on an old snare with a mesh head works better than a roland pad and it cost me about £10 in parts to do the conversion / make...
Hi Justin. What do you think about the Magnatrack Trigger for Cymbals. For example Zildjian low 80 with a Roland TD-20 Module. Thanks and Best wishes Rolf
Hey Justin, thanks for the great video! I just finished my DIY conversion project and although everything turned out pretty ok so far, the triggering of my snare rim is a problem at the moment. I have a Intrigg Triggera trigger, a Drumtec Real Feel mesh head and R-Drums rubber rim protection. Before I added the rubber rim protection, the rim was triggering quite well, now of course it doesn't work because the rubber rim actually does a great job decreasing rim hit volume but it also decreases the force that you hit the rim with and now the module does not pick up the rim shot or rim click, only if I hit it very very hard. I've played with the settings quite a bit but cannot find a way to fix it. I have a TD17 module, I was thinking to put something between the snare edge and the rubber so that the hit is transfered to the snare shell better. Have you had trouble with this before? Any advices would be highly appreciated it :)
Yeah I bought some, and I returned them to get my money back. They stopped being sensitive 2 weeks in. Also the magnet wasn't strong enough to stay together on a 3ply mesh heads
I have a Simmons SDMP1 That won't trigger in the KICk or HH inputs with most triggers but some with a half Click. What do I need to do to use these. It has two more inputs for triggers which work with my kick and HH but I would like to use them for ride and crash cymbals.
Hey there.. I have a problem with my Roland RT30 trigger.. when I use it on my snare drum (either with mesh heads or with regular heads) it doesn´t produce any sound when I hit a rimshot. I can see the light on the module popping up, so clearly it is receiving a signal from the actual stroke, but again, no sound comes out of it. I'm using Ableton Live to play some nicer drum samples. FYI, I do get different velocities while playing normally. I'm really struggling to find a solution!! Keep up the great videos!!
I saw that you were using the R-Drums center mount trig on your snare, I was wondering what material would you say the decoupler is made of? Is it like more of a mouse pad feel or like a yoga block? I love all of Rdrums designs but I don't want to pay for the overseas shipping so I'm trying to recreate them as close as possible. Thanks!
Well summarised. The 1. reason for the “arm on every lug” is minimising unwanted resonance. The centre trigger vibrates after every hit, that leads to unwanted trigger signals from both head and rim piezos. It basically distorts the otherwise clean signal. Second reason is stability: A bar (Especially that thing from Jobeky) bents on every hit. The pickup moves downwards on every hit. Signal is disturbed even more. So you try to adjust this in the module by cancelling retriggering etc, until the pickup range is so much limited that you cannot play very soft hits, not fast hits after each other. If Jobeky would at least use a U-shaped profile like R-drums does, the result would be better.
I would have categorised the triggers even more, into: Quality triggers and “DIY solutions out of tool shop parts”. The Roland RT-Triggers, R-Drums Triggers and DDT Triggers are quality solutions. While the rest is just a Saturday afternoon project, labelled as “product”.
TRIGGERED!!!
❤❤❤ 30 seconds in this already saved me hours of research 🎉🎉🎉 incredibly helpful
Sir, you are doing a great service explaining this stuff. I really appreciate, thank you
I just wanted to thank you for all the great, informative videos. I'm currently in the process of converting my acoustic set to electronic (because I like being on the good side of my neighbors), and both your channel and Vdrum Tips have been great places for all the info I didn't know. I would have never even attempted the conversion until I started watching all the great tips and explanations on here. Keep up the awesome work!
Thank you for this informative, straight to the point video on explaining the most important things.
You helped me a ton. ☺️🙏
Perfect!! 👌🏻 Excellent information, it's only 15 min, but it requires so much time, experience and attemps to learn all of that. It is also perfectly explained!! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Literally got on craigslist and found the only alesis io anywhere in the city right after watching your video telling me to buy it. Thanks!!
I recently converted my acoustic drums to electric. Mesh heads in everything with Roland triggers.
Everything plugged into a Ddrum DDTI interface, midi out into my laptop, running on ezdrummer software.
It's great in terms of being able to practice at any hour without disturbing anyone, BUT it really takes a lot of time fine tuning everything. Getting the proper head tension, cross talk, retrigger, threshold, sensitivity settings, everything. I've had it for over a month and I'm still making adjustments from time to time.
It's a real pain to get everything working the way you want, but once you get it, it's pretty awesome.
Excellent video. First time I truly understand what I need.
Just curious - who manufactures the expensive center mount at 2:17?
Like other commenters I just want to thank you for putting out these videos! They are so informative and helpful for learning about every aspect of Edrums. I frequented your channel a lot in 2019 when I was deciding what kit to buy (I ended up getting a td17 kvx) but now want to convert an acoustic kit and I feel like you have video for every question I could ever have about it!
Excellent resource, nice work! ☺️👍
If you're handy triggers are fairly easy to assemble. I made a center mount with 2 slotted 90 degree brackets and a shelf bracket I had laying around. Got a Pintech trigger with 1/4 jack for $18 on Amazon. Dirt cheap floor tom and works great even with a 1 ply Silentstroke head though I would recommend 2 ply if possible. Wood crossbars would work too and be easy to make.
I have an internal side mount from a company called Convertible Percussions. It works flawless. Very little tweaking needed when I used it with a Roland module.
Chris - did you use them on the entire kit - kick, snare and toms? I'm thinking of ordering a set.
Im thinking of getting one. If I cant get this rt-30 to work right I will be....
I sold the RT30 and made a Convertible Percussions snare. All functions work well including positional sensing. Great prices and solid simple construction.
if i want to know something about EL drum, you already have video about it
I've recently discovered your channel, you're great man!
Great video Justin, I’m an no longer confused about all of the electronic stump in these drums😂
Nice job explaining all that! Thank you!
Thanks I've been needing this video for so long
Very good info all u need to know .
Anyone know on the internal side mounted triggers what the distance is from the shell? Fie exampke, Is it the same distance as top mounted triggers like Roland and yamaha?
Appreciate this! 👊👊
I use the Pintech internal trigger bars and they work great! I converted my old Pearl Export set from 1980. I also use a TD-9 module with the Ddrum DDTI trigger interface triggering EZDrummer 2.
Great video, very good research done! 🙏
Thanks for the video helped a lot !
Great video - much valuable information. I can see you demonstrated the drum module adjustments on a Roland T-30. Would love to see adjustment capabilities demonstrated on a variety of brands / models. Maybe do a round-up of all the different models of drum modules and their pros/cons. Thank you for your efforts.
Hey, the Roland TM-2 is a FANTASTIC option. Highly suggested. Several sounds, SD card, midi in/out.. 4 inputs, just a great little thing for $200
JMRSplatt it has 2 inputs and 2 outputs not 4 inputs
@@harshadkale3046 He probably meant it has 2 stereo inputs. 2 physical input jacks that can receive 4 total input signals.
Hi Justin, just found this video. Have you ever discussed about compatibility between drum trigger and module? Like drum trigger x can be compatible with which drum module, and vice versa?
Excellent video ! I just bought a Megadrum module, it does the positional sensing unlike the DDrum DDTI ,also 3 zone cymbals and a bunch of inputs (56) ! Very promising.
Planning to get myself a trigger for the first time and I'm quite lost in this. However, your video was super helpful - keep it going!
I'm looking for A2E triggers now. This video was very very helpful, thanks!
Thanks a lot Justin. This explains a lot. Love your videos and now building my own A2E drum kit👍👍👍
Great video. Really helped me understand triggering. Thanks a lot!
thank you very much for the video, very useful to get an exact idea. I am using an old, but still functional ROLAND TD-8 module for the rehearsal room, I am using the ROLAND dual RT-30 triggers, but I am not completely satisfied, I find the way of fixing on the snare rim and with the time creates unwanted vibrations and sounds.
What would you use, considering the TD-8 module? Thank you
Excellent tips! It's also something good to refer to at a later time if needed.
Fantastic video, thank you
Can you use multiple side-mounted triggers (inside the drum) or clip-on triggers and chain them together?
Very useful information! I've been looking at possibly doing a A2E, so this will definitely help me get the trigger set correctly
Very informative. Thanks for the work you put into your channel. I'll never miss a video
Thanks Timothy!
Excellent advice, thanks so much.
Absolutely great video! Thank you so much
I used the stick on type in the early 90s. For me the worked PERFECTLY. Never any problems. triggered acoustic drums into an Alesis D4. Good times. Wish I still had that setup. super easy. Hybrid electric kits are my favorite. 100% electric is WAY too sterile.
Hey justin i love your channal and you are making mee goot feel to make a conversion. (Sorry fire my bad englisch i am from swiss and not the best writer. Hahah)
I have a problem that my triggera v3 settings not the best can you help mee out? My rim triggers not so good i wone have a rim sound and a head sound what can i doo in the settings? And a other question. Can you help mee ore make a video how to do triggersettings in the td27 for the triggera v3. Thanks i hope you can help mee out!
Love your channel!❤️
Very good! Thanks much!!
I have silentstroke head and use foam padding and that seems to do the trick. No retriggering and perfect response for buzz rolls even. Do I therefore even need Roland two or three ply??
This also works for double bass triggers? Like OnTrigger, Footblaster etc...?
This video is gold
thanks for this great vid!
Thanks 4 this video im trying 2 venture on triggers soon.
Thanks...very helpful
Thanks for this.
Great video thanks
Great info Dude.
yeaa men, this is the video that i was looking for
There are also the Yamaha die-cast & chromed rim-mount triggers, which IMO, have the best aesthetic of all the rim-mount triggers :)
How about a video-visit to edrums of the 'past'...some of which can still cut-it in the real-world, the Clavia Ddrum 4 for instance ;-) They can also be had for very little money, for those on a budget.
In the past I've owned the Alesis DM Pro & DM 5, the Yamaha TMX, Simmons SDS9, Yamaha DTXtreme (I & II), Yamaha DTXpress, etc etc ad infinitum.
Hey Justin! Great video!!! I totally did not know about the mask time witch will help me a lot. I sometimes have the issue you mentioned with the kick triggering that "beater bounce". Thanks!:)
I love your reviews I’m going to convert my acoustics! I just have one suggestion that you update your backdrop. The paneling reminds me of my parents old house in 1968. I’ve been looks nice is just no modern. So I’m not criticizing it I’m just suggesting something cooler..lol
Great Tips!!!.
have you ever used any of these on Roto Toms?
Very informative video Justin. Do you think the 'hot-spotting" issue with a centre-mounted trigger would be resolved by positioning it offset - somewhere mid-way between the centre and that part of the rim furthest from the drummer? That area of the head is unlikely to get a direct hit and the resultant spike.
Can converting an acoustic kit be as good as the new VAD706? Or are electronic drum triggers that much better?
Hey Justin! This is really helpful!
Great info Justin!! I really want to have a real drum conversion, i do have some ALESIS DM10MKII drums hat I’m using right now, the triggers inside looks great or at least more complicated design that the ones from other brands, but I never test other ones, what do you think is better? Take apart the DM10MKII drums and put that triggers inside the new shells with some DIY bars in to the lugs..... Or just buy ITM2 triggers, what do you think will trigger better, with more Dinamics? Thanks!! I really enjoy all your videos!!
Thank you so much!
Would you recommend applying an internal snare trigger on a tom-tom?
I'd like to have a tom-tom with a cowbell or other effects. Thanks!
Hi justin , Do every acoustic drums have air vents?
Hey Justin and everyone. Have you used Extreme Drums drum triggers? I found them online and talked to Marshall who is the owner I believe. Very nice guy. Just wanted to see if anyone has tried them out and how good they are.
Thanks!
Josh
i'm thinking of getting DDrum red shot triggers for my acoustic set, will i be able to plug this in to my td17 drum module?
Thank you, really appreciate your content!!
Have you ever tried to tape an acoustic head to make it thicker? I was thinking maybe it would improve triggering performance like three-ply mesh heads or something
Awesome video, but I have a maybe odd question. I just bought a Roland SPD-SX with a RT-30K kick trigger. If I wanted to practice using that setup, is there a way I can set up the kick trigger on something (quieter) other than my bass drum?
Great points here! Are you also going to talk about electronic diy hihats and cymbals?
Center internal trigger cant be moved a little bit more to the side? To avoid hot spot?
Jobeky internal side trigger vs Tiggera intrigg internal side trigger?
What works best for triggering on an acoustic drum kit. In other words, triggering off of mylar heads to use live for mixing the actual acoustic sound of the drums with electronic sounds from a module or some such source? I have no interest in using mesh heads.
Great video Justin.
Thanks Robert!
Great info...thanks!
Settings at 12:00 min. Great video. Thanks
Justin, can these triggers work on regular drum heads? like not mesh.
Yes, but triggers will always be a bit more accurate on mesh heads because they don't vibrate as much as mylar heads
@@65Drums nicee! thanks for the feedback justin
Do you know if these triggers work with an accoustic head with a mute pad on top like an evans sound off?? Or does it not vibrate enough to trigger
The dual snare triggers....does this mean you get a clear difference between a rim click alone, and a rim shot along with the snare? Do they require 2 cables
Valuable Info. TnQ Brothr !!
I found I am getting dead spots with the Drum-Tec 'Real Feel' three ply on my Drum-Tec Jam snare pad as compared to the 'Design' two ply ??? With side triggers...
Can you use a dual trigger if your drum kit doesn’t support dual zone pads??
If you have a sample pad, can you plug in the trigger to the sample pad to choose which sound you want it to make?
Depends on the sample pad
How hard/dense is the foam used to cover the piezo? I'm trying to make my own internally mounted triggers as a DIY hobby.
I kinda like the lap type sound source idea. I have no idea which way to go. I need someone to tell me what’s best. I have 7 pc Tama drum kit, not counting cymbals.
One question about the "stealth" trigger, when it's connected on the inside of the drum, doesn't it react when you hit the shell or the rim?
Depends on sensitivity settings. If set correctly to contact only inside head this would be fine.
There are non-permanent "contact gels" (used with medical "T.E.N.S. units) for attaching therapeutic contact pads to skin. Appling this gel to the contact sensor greatly improves transference efficiency between trigger and head/shell.
Hey 65Drums! So you explained how to use the triggers with a Module like the one you showed with Roland. But how do you edit the triggering in a softwair like Superior Drummer 3?
Would it be a good idea to use edrums for recording?
may i know does Yamaha EAD10 can apply on mesh drum head?
Made my own centre mount trigger (not a drummer but more a techie) on a Roland TD-11 and tbh my homemade trigger on an old snare with a mesh head works better than a roland pad and it cost me about £10 in parts to do the conversion / make...
I cant find any center mounted triggers on my own, does anyone have a link or two for some to check out anywhere?
Are the Roland RT30s compatible with an ATV EXS module?
Hi Justin. What do you think about the
Magnatrack Trigger for Cymbals.
For example Zildjian low 80 with a Roland TD-20 Module. Thanks and Best wishes Rolf
I converted our Churches Zildjian Gen 16s with the Magnatrack triggers and they work great.
Hey Justin, thanks for the great video! I just finished my DIY conversion project and although everything turned out pretty ok so far, the triggering of my snare rim is a problem at the moment. I have a Intrigg Triggera trigger, a Drumtec Real Feel mesh head and R-Drums rubber rim protection. Before I added the rubber rim protection, the rim was triggering quite well, now of course it doesn't work because the rubber rim actually does a great job decreasing rim hit volume but it also decreases the force that you hit the rim with and now the module does not pick up the rim shot or rim click, only if I hit it very very hard. I've played with the settings quite a bit but cannot find a way to fix it. I have a TD17 module,
I was thinking to put something between the snare edge and the rubber so that the hit is transfered to the snare shell better. Have you had trouble with this before? Any advices would be highly appreciated it :)
Have you had any experience with Magnatrack drum triggers and symbols? They look very interesting.
Yeah I bought some, and I returned them to get my money back. They stopped being sensitive 2 weeks in. Also the magnet wasn't strong enough to stay together on a 3ply mesh heads
I have a Simmons SDMP1 That won't trigger in the KICk or HH inputs with most triggers but some with a half Click. What do I need to do to use these. It has two more inputs for triggers which work with my kick and HH but I would like to use them for ride and crash cymbals.
Hey there.. I have a problem with my Roland RT30 trigger.. when I use it on my snare drum (either with mesh heads or with regular heads) it doesn´t produce any sound when I hit a rimshot. I can see the light on the module popping up, so clearly it is receiving a signal from the actual stroke, but again, no sound comes out of it. I'm using Ableton Live to play some nicer drum samples.
FYI, I do get different velocities while playing normally. I'm really struggling to find a solution!!
Keep up the great videos!!
I saw that you were using the R-Drums center mount trig on your snare, I was wondering what material would you say the decoupler is made of? Is it like more of a mouse pad feel or like a yoga block?
I love all of Rdrums designs but I don't want to pay for the overseas shipping so I'm trying to recreate them as close as possible. Thanks!