Sauron: The Death of a Dark Lord | The Red Book | Episode 11
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- Опубликовано: 19 май 2024
- The Red Book Podcast ran for 12 episodes. This is the eleventh episode. What happened to Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring? Death? Diminishment? What is the difference between these terms? Can the Ainur die? Is Sauron able to return and trouble Middle-earth once again? These are just some of the questions I will answer in this episode, alongside discussions about the nature of the Ainur, how Sauron's fall differs from the fall of his master Morgoth, Incarnation, Sauron's motives, and the bleak picture painted by Tolkien in his abandoned tale of the Fourth Age.
► Chapters:
00:00 - The Red Book Podcast Introduction
01:10 - Sauron: The Death of a Dark Lord
02:20 - Defining 'Death'
09:17 - Incarnation & Self-incarnation
14:23 - Sauron's Many Deaths
17:53 - Sauron's Diminished Will
22:07 - End of Part I
22:39 - Sauron's Lost Power
24:10 - The Enhancement of Power
27:58 - The Motives of Sauron
32:00 - Morgoth's Ring
35:23 - The Greater Spirit
37:23 - The End of Days
39:15 - End of Part II
39:49 - The New Shadow
43:02 - The Eternal Influence of Dark Lords
47:15 - The Red Book Podcast Outro/Artist Credits
► Support the Channel:
Support the channel through Patreon - / stevengibb
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► Supporters:
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► On-Screen Notes:
1. The Red Book - ( / @theredbook )
2. LotR - RotK - Bk.6 - Ch.9 - The Grey Havens
3. TS - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
4. LotR - RotK - Bk.5 - Ch.9 - The Last Debate
5. TS - Ainulindalë - The Music of the Ainur
6. TS - Ch.3 - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
7. HoMe X - Laws and Customs Among the Eldar
8. TS - Ch.23 - Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
9. HoMe XII - Glorfindel
10. Letter 200
11. Letter 200
12. Letter 156
13. Letter 156
14. NoMe - Ósanwe-kenta
15. NoMe - Ósanwe-kenta
16. LotR - FotR - Bk.2 - Ch.2 - The Council of Elrond
17. TS - Akallabêth - The Downfall of Númenor
18. Letter 200
19. TS - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
20. The Unnatural Upbringing of Feanor - ( • The Unnatural Upbringi... )
21. HoMe X - Laws and Customs Among the Eldar
22. HoMe XII - The Shibboleth of Fëanor
23. NoMe - Ósanwe-kenta
24. LotR - TTT - Bk.4 - Ch.3 - The Black Gate is Closed
25. Letter 131
26. HoMe XII - Last Writings
27. LotR - Bk. 6 - Ch.3 - Mount Doom
28. Letter 211
29. TS - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
30. Letter 131
31. Of Galadriel and the One Ring - ( • All Shall Love Me And ... )
32. Of Gandalf as the Lord of the Rings - ( • Of Gandalf as the Lord... )
33. What is Morgoth’s Ring? - ( • Morgoth's Ring | The E... )
34. The Marring of Arda and Morgoth’s Ring - ( • The Marring Of Arda An... )
35. HoMe X - Myths Transformed
36. TS - Ainulindalë - The Music of the Ainur
37. HoMe X - Myths Transformed
38. HoMe X - Myths Transformed
39. HoMe X - Myths Transformed
40. HoMe XII - The New Shadow
41. Sauron: The New Shadow of Middle-earth - ( • Sauron: The New Shadow... )
42. The Wild Men: The Men of Darkness - ( • The Wild Men | Tolkien... )
43. LotR - RotK - Bk.5 - Ch.9 - The Last Debate
► Artwork:
All artists, images, and links to sources are found by following the link below. If you would like to see your artwork appear in videos or discuss the use of your artwork on the channel, please get in touch.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
► Thumbnail art :
One Ring to rule them all - Dominik Mayer (dtmayer.artstation.com)
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #sauron #morgoth #lotr #legendarium 
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I seen those questions asked basically on daily basis in fan groups around the social medias,and no one could have given better and more in depth answers than this episode ( and you in general) . It’s just so sad those people never bother to look for great channels like yours . You need to promote yourself more! I know you hate it ,but you gotta figure out how . It’s just a shame your channel remains unknown for so many that would appreciate it 😔💜.
I'm terrible at promoting. I basically think I'm annoying people if I link to my channel elsewhere. Probably because I get annoyed when people do that. I was hoping everyone else would do it for me so it's not me spamming my channel
@@TheRedBookFYI, another RUclipsr had somebody link her vlog on an established RUclipsrs vlog. Within a month she nearly doubled her audience. Indeed,
@@RingsLoreMaster - I probably wouldn't ask anyone to do that but wouldn't object if they did it on their own . Plenty of people recommend other channels on my videos.
Dude this long, quality, well-researched content deserves more than 30k subs! 100-300k at least! If you don't want to do it, hire someone! Plow your ad revenue into it! @@TheRedBook
Another comment on why Sauron made the Ring: Sauron loathed waste. It was one of the biggest reasons for his fall and eventual return to evil.
To that end, the Ring's primary purpose was to be the catalyst to instantly win the war for Middle-earth. Gift rings of power to all the leaders of each race... BAM. Instant recipe for becoming Lord of the Earth.
But Sauron never expected the Ring's function of dominating the wills of lesser ring-bearers would spoil, via the resistance of the dwarven race (the Seven) and the secrecy of those elves he taught (the Three).
He also never intended (or wanted) to be separated from it. He was incapable of taking it off, let alone unmaking it.
Absolutely one of my favorite characters and villains. You're doing an awesome job, Red Book.
As always, the best analysis of tolkein available on RUclips.
It would seem that Saruman suffered a similar fate, as did the balrog slain by Gandalf. I've sometimes wondered that if Saruman had not been slain that he could have eventually become a Dark Lord.
Listening to this at work will be a pleasure
Today was a rough day. While the topic was interesting. . hearing your voice soothed and calmed me. Thank you.
You deserve all the support and appreciation Redbook. ♥️♥️♥️🍀🍀🍀.
Just leaving a comment because I appreciate your insights and analysis, to appease the algorithm of power.
THIS channel is one of the best summaries of Tolkien's works I've come across. Thank you!
Love the fireplace and library picture at the beginning.
I'd part with good money to sit in a place like that with the narration from this superb work being done by Sir Ian in his Gandalf persona, its the sort of "parting advice" I could so easily envision Gandalf giving King Elessar at their last meeting "Sauron is gone and cannot return, but do not relax your vigilance against evil, for Morgoth's taint still affects this Middle Earth."
Saurons final fate worse than death is soo fitting. Your genius matches that of Tolkien’s. Such high quality content. 🍀🍀🍀 Soo grateful for this channel Redbook & podcast. I’m learning a lot from this channel.
Enjoyed listening to this latest entry. At the end the image of a Dark Tree spreading throughout the hearts of Men had me wishing the Professor had the time to finish all the works he left behind in an uncompleted state.
Grant, I wonder if you have read Tolkien's letter to Mr. Waldman of Collins publishing. In it, he mentions that he would leave space for other riders to contribute their creativity to the work. For better or worse, Christopher is practically the only one to have made contributions.
In this video, a beautiful definition of the phenomenon of "divine death" is given specifically for Sauron. A deeper insight into the nature of incarnation is also offered. According to my perception, my thoughts are as follows (it contains a somewhat theoretical approach): The One Ring is a product of sub-creation in which Sauron incarnated his spiritual power (the inherent energy of his soul) into the object constructed from the material of Arda. In the type of incarnation adopted by Tolkien in his mythology (probably due to the theological doctrine coming from this sect of Christianity, since he was a Catholic), the soul cannot be divided. Because in the internal dynamics of this fiction, the ability to destroy or disintegrate the soul belongs only to Eru. Due to the nature of this irreversible incarnation adopted in the creation of the One Ring, Sauron binds a certain part of his soul to his material structure. Thus, the One Ring gains a will. When the material structure of the One Ring is destroyed, Sauron forever loses access to the soul part he has bound to it. It becomes a kind of paralysis. This means that Sauron loses his will to reincarnate and cannot realize his existence in incarnated form again. This is an example of the "divine death" event expressed specifically in the case of Sauron. As for "Morgoth's Ring": The material structure of the One Ring was constructed from Arda, and it contains the spiritual power of Sauron and the will based on it. Since the One Ring is constructed from Arda, it can be thought that it also contains a kind of will that can be described as the "taint of Melkor". Therefore, what kind of relationship and interaction is there between these two wills? I would like to discuss this also.
Back with a new season of Podcast content. Check out the description for notes/references mentioned in the video. Enjoy!
The Red Book on Patreon: www.patreon.com/theredbook
Steven, was this reuploaded? I could’ve sworn I watched it weeks ago…
@@MistaGify No, but I do use information from other videos. It has been available for members for a month but this has only been made public recently.
Steven, I hope everything is going well in your life. If you can't make videos because you are on a world tour with your band that would be great. I am sure that whatever reason you have for a reduction of content on RUclips is a good one. I know each video you make takes a very long time to produce. All of us subs appreciate the love and attention to details that you put into each video masterpiece. Can't wait till the next one comes out.
Great to see a new episode! I hope your break was restful and rejuvinating!
It was always my thoughts that Morgoth actually won, as his corruption and dominance of middle earth would become realized within the hearts of men. An it is the evils of men that allow him to return from beyond the door of night. A world where the elves are gone, the old alliances forgotten, and the kingdoms of men are stagnant.
Very well thought out questions and I believe answers! Bravo sir bravo!
Cheers
Tons of thought-provoking material here, and in fact it’s sparked a theory in my own mind…
Because of the depth of your content, combining existing episodes seemed to work well.
I consider your analysis to be the "gold standard" even though the others aren't far behind. Just seems like you have the best grasp of the content of the people with RUclips channels.
There are parallels between Sauron and death and real people who have invested their life in something that makes them famous. When their fame is stripped from them the fade from public life and often have no will to "return" or their new infamy make it impossible.
I'm excited for the remainder of this season! This has nothing to do with the videos subject matter but nothing beats learning some Tolkien lore while playing Tears of the Kingdom, and your channel is by far my favorite place to learn and listen while I game. The influence of The Lord of the Rings has always been the most apparent and best part of the Zelda series for me. The games likely wouldn't exist if it weren't for Tolkiens mythology. At least not as people know them now, the landscape and even story would certainly look and unfold differently.
In another feed someone asked if Gandalf the White automatically reverted to his valinorian form upon return to the uttermost west after the war of the ring.
I find the nature of the spirits of the Ainur relevant here so I'm copying my diatribe into this thread. Hopefully it sparks some good thought:
I think they (the Iztari) were trapped in their lesser bodies by the power of the valar. Similar techniques were used by morgoth to trap very low ranking maiar in the form of Orcs. I often thought that was the technique they used to breed the races of werewolves and vampires and dragons. I also think the witchking new something of this technique and when Angmar destroyed the North Kingdom the Witch King used it to trap minor malicious spirits in the trees of the old Forest and this is the origin of Old Man Willow, a parting gift from Angmar to make sure that Arthedain would be a sour country difficult to recultivate.
The difference between wizards and monsters is that the valar did it with concent of the maia in question instead of by force upon a slave for an evil purpose.
As far as breaking out of his body there is an unknown element that prohibits answering the question: how much more power and autonomy did Eru embue him with when he reincarnated Olorin as Gandalf the White?
As Gandalf the Grey, the power of the valar constrained him to the body. It is not said if Eru restored him with the full power of Olorin of Valinor.
Personnaly, i like to imagine that he was powerful enough. If things had been going badly enough at the battle of the pelennor fields he would have straight up broken and destroyed the nazgul to save mankind. If that had been the case, he probably also had the power to revert to valinorian form.
If not, and Eru restored him to only slightly more powerful then he might not be able to revert without the support of a Vala.
Bravo! Another superb video! I don't know how I missed this when it first came out but better late than never.
Welcome back red book! What a channel. Id love to hear your thoughts on sarumans ring!
This is a very detailed dive into the subject. Thank you for this content, and your continued devotion into seeing Tokien's work in such a light that we can always learn more, even if we are faithful readers of the original works. I'm always excited when your next episode airs, and I look forward to learning even more.
I'm so glad this podcast is back! Thanks for the excellent content.
This is a very good channel. It's also a channel that i think will be watched far after the life of its creator. I wouldn't be surprised if people are still watching this in a thousand years (should humanity last that long).
And in a thousand years i hope that all the comments from now till then are still under these videos for them to read.
If so then Hello descendants! Sorry if we made a mess of the planet, i hope everything's going well for you guys 👍
Fantastic video, great exploration of a fascinating topic
Love your channel, thank you for the great content
It's so much fun to listen to such analysis that parses all the nuance
Excellent entry. You did a great job of addressing the misconceptions surrounding Sauron's native vigor and strength (both pre and post ring.) It was also nice hearing music from the Lords of Shadow in your edit.
Where was the One Ring during Sauron's time in Numenor? I find it hard to believe that he would have left it behind but if he had it with him then how did he retrieve it from the bottom of the sea when his body was destroyed and his spirit fled east?
He had it with him and carried it off as a spirit. I talk about that in a video : Did Sauron Take the Ring to Númenor? | Tolkien Questions
Excellent Episode ❤
Still waiting for the Bombadil video!
It became so long that I think it's going to be an episode like this instead of one of the regular videos. I'm planning on it being the finale episode for the season. But I think it will be a good one.
Looking forward to it :-)
cheers thanks for the video :D
Omg, I'm about to do a very early morning shift and my heart is filled with joy for a 48 minute podcast of the Red Book❤❤❤
Awesome work thank you.
I'm not particularly knowledgable in Tolkien lore (though I do enjoy listening to those who are speaking on the subject), so maybe this is a stupid comment. But, I found it fascinating what you said about the Ainur being more strongly tied to physical bodies the longer they inhabit them. What does that mean for Gandalf and the other wizards?
I agree with your take on this. I've always thought that if the Balrog had gotten the ring, he'd have become the new Dark Lord.
The way I see it, Sauron spends an eternity trying to reform himself, only for the physical form to fall apart at great pain to Sauron.
Wonderful Video ⭐⭐⭐⭐
Unless eru recreates him like he did gandalf hes dead. Would be kinda cool if by the time morgoth comes back at the end that sauron repents after forever as a spirit so he is recreated in his orginal form and fights against morgoth at the last battle.
Gandalf's death was completely different.
@TheRedBook I meant that's the only way sauron could return, but that brings up a question: Could saruman come back given enough time since his power is not split?
Late to the party. Thanks for another great video on death in the Legendarium, Steven! I do hope that Sauron and Saruman are able to interact. I do hope they are spitting bitter acrimony at one another down the Ages. It is interesting to know that the Dark Lord's 'Rings' resemble their personalities and goals. The One Ring is power concentrated in a symmetrically pleasing form and Morgoth's Ring is power disseminated into a gross tainting of the world that will last as long as it exists. It's the king of all turds in the punch bowl.
he just spawned in the void through the gates of night after his downfall and as long Earendil guards that gate, nothing can escape.
Sauron as a threat has been removed as he can never return, but what of Saruman? His spirit is denied to return to Valinor, but could he return to body?
A tree is very fitting. Morgoth was the seed, the seed of evil in Arda. From Morgoth, the seed, came Sauron, the tree, from Sauron came the Witch- King, from the Witch-King came Angmar, from Angmar came Minas Morgul and Morgul Vale. Sauron then made another branch of evil, Saruman of Many Colours, who brought anger and sadness to Rohan and pain and suffering to The Shire.
However, From the seed came three more, maybe greater, evils. War, betrayal and the deaths of many innocents. These three evils will remain until the remaking of Arda. Even Aman has these evils on it. The Numenoreans who invaded Valinor are in the Caves of the Forgotten on Aman. Many elves know these as well and so have the Valar themselves. Even Eru Illivitar has done these in that there were many innocent people on Numenor when Eru Illivitar brought about the Downfall of Numenor. No-one, not even Eru Illivitar himself is immune to the evils of Morgoth!
Arda may be Morgoth's Ring, but all living life forms are also affected by Morgoth. Morgoth really is in everyone and everything! No-one, not even Eru Illivitar himself, can escape the affects of Morgoth! Morgoth is in everyone and everything! Both in Arda and beyond all!
Missed it live...😢
Na, I don't do live with the Podcast episodes.
Its like Sauron used part of his soul to create the ring, then lost it
Niceee
Do most Maiar suffer a permanent death, wait in the Halls of Mandos, go into the void or linger on in the world as formless spirits ?
This part of the Legendarium is difficult to understand clearly.
Maiar have ëalar for spirits and fanar for bodies. It is different from the fëar and hröar of Elves and Men.
From what I understand, Maiar can choose the form their fanar take in Arda. Balrogs differ from Melian who suffers from Sauron who differed from the Istari.
In the case of Sauron, we know he "died" three times. The first two times he died and his ëala lingered in Arda, only to be reembodied later. The last time he just seemed to become so weak that he could never reembody again. Saruman died once and could never reembody himself. Balrogs died and as far as we know, never reembodied.
I guess the question is: Do ealar eventually end up in the Halls of Mandos?🤔 Well, I don't think so, but it is possible. I think the reason is that ealar are not bound to their fanar in the same way that fëar are bound to their hröar. Fanar are more like clothes for the Maiar. They don't need them to exist in Arda, whereas Elves and Men need their hröar to exist in Arda.
I hope that is not confusing for you. Maybe Steven will show up and correct any "mistakes" I have.
As for the Void, I think beings have to be cast into it by Eru, but again, I am not sure. I am pretty sure no one goes directly there after "death."
Thank you so much ❤️👍
❤
I can’t find episode 10! 🥺
I am sure he is not dead. Being a Majar he does not know death… he is greatly diminished in his powers… yes… he won‘t bother Middleearth as he used to… yes… but dead… not.
I don't think you watched this.
Ништяк
Спасибо!
Could Morgoth assist Sauron in incarnating again in a new body
Not from the void.
крутая превью!
Do balrogs go to the halls of mandos🤔
Can’t destroy Sauron only what he manifests into the world. Like his body or ring. He physically embodied his power into something that can be destroyed.
What does it mean to be self arraying and approaches the state of incarnation??
Being "arrayed" means being clothed. Tolkien is saying they were appearing to be clothed according to their own will but that it could approach a state of incarnation, which would mean not just appearing to being clothed in real physical matter but actually being a physical being.
@@TheRedBook thank you so much for clarifying this. 🍀🍀🍀 I totally understood this now.
Tolkien was definitely looking towards our own physical world when he considered the 'New Shadow'. A representation of the very evils which happened here....brought about purely by human beings and not god like beings. WW2 being a good example. He was probably considering the fundamental/internal influences that would lead to such attrocities as has happened turning often decent people into monsters acting in its interests in their thousands and all stemming back to just a small group of men who wanted ultimate power and control. Being a religious man himself, he likely imagined this evil to have originally stemmed from a similar source to that in his own created world. The evil entity we see in various forms of christianity...the devil.....using his influence to alter the world and what god had created without being there and doing it himself. I think Arda and Middle-Earth were pretty much fashioned on Tolkien's perception of our own world. Hence the fading of the elves and dominion of men, the removal of valinor from the circles of the world, making the world round and gradually evolving it to be a sort of sister to our own...sort of like creating an alternative history for our own if you like....
🗡️🏴❤️
Tolkien ? Power seeker 👑 Chakra / K
I think Tolkien has enough of a following for “The Red Book” to end up having more connection to him than to communism when future generations hear the phrase. Let’s make it happen 😅
What a great video!
As always, the best analysis of tolkein available on RUclips.