You know what I know about this gun it was made by a guy called phillipe flachette in 1884 in belgium this was a number of concept guns he tried to make for the french army this is the second that was made the first one wasnt very reliable, Phillipe had a small workshop he was nothing big he was just very good with mechanics I think he made 3 concepts but they never went into full production as he didn't have anyone to back him all because the shape of the grip. I only know this as I bought some of his diarys and blue prints at an auction a few years back.
I'd imagine that the missing piece would help with the reloading! That firing pin screw changes diameter distinctively near the end, I'd imagine there was some kind of finger friendly wheel on the end. Which would enable easy unscrew and also allow for a stop when screwing the pin back down. Given, as Ian said, the gun is well finished, that ugly firing pin screw left exposed doesn't fit the rest of it.
@@yaalikejazz3960 You mean the one I replied to? Yes - that's what I'm baffled about. The name of the gun, or its inventor, was not given in the video, nor its description.
I think I read about this gun in a book about the history of handguns. The gun actually makes perfect sense when you realize that you use both your pointer finger AND your middle finger to operate the gun. Your pointer finger moves the "trigger" that pulls the hammer back while your middle finger actually presses the trigger that fires the gun. When you use both fingers, its actually pretty safe to reload and extremely convenient for shooting since you have the accuracy of a single-action with the speed of a double-action.
ryelor123 I would still say that "...it's actually pretty safe to reload..." is still a bit dubious - one slip of the finger, and... Though I'm also of the belief that the firing pin is missing a stop nut of some sort on its tail end that would make it reasonably quickly removable for both use as an ejector and for legitimately safe reloading. With the comments finding evidence that this was designed around the 1850s, this really wouldn't be as ungodly slow to do(compared to the standard firearms of the era) as it would be only a few decades later as revolver & general firearm development accelerated exponentially.
@@RyTrapp0 you can look at the patent here->patents.google.com/patent/US102782?oq=%22Jules+Edouard+De+Dartein%22and see it had a odd little nodule at the end of the firing pin
@@yaalikejazz3960 That’s amazing! How did you find that? The gun didn’t have any patent numbers or anything, but it’s undeniably the same design! Incredible…Great work!
Famtomerc Dali could certainly draw and paint real firearms, I’ve got a print of his and it clearly has a rolling block rifle in it. He was a very accomplished life painter. I don’t think he ever designed a firearm but if he had, I like to think it would have looked like this. 😄
Well, i've heard he designed a sword for his membership in the spanish national academy or something, where you were obliged to have a ceremonial sword. It was designed with a blade so thin, it could be rolled up like a meter in a round sheath. smart, eh?
DEUCE AND GUNS your sense of attention must be that of a dead person as he said this was made in the 1800s. Most people didn't have a phone, get your delivery right for a joke next time.
Thats my thought as well. Someone who couldnt use a single action due to an accident but had enough money to go to a gunsmith and have a custom made gun done. Reloading wouldnt be so much of a problem as long as it was just a carry around weapon for protection. Dont know why he wouldnt just spring for a double action.
I never would've thought of this on my own without months of firing time, and I think you just fixed a problem that exists on one firearm ever made Kudos
This gun is a very specific design. If you didn't notice there's actually a swing hinge at the bottom where the splines are.you swing that mechanism out and it allows you to rotate the barrel without having to cock it.
Sorry but I think you are wrong. By the very nature of a Duel is to have God decide as judge in a disagreement between two parties. The rules are that the guns are to be musket firing smooth bore handguns and MUST be single shot only. Duels were not meant to be 100% lethal, They were intended to have a risk of death not a near certainty of death like you would have with a multi shot rifled revolver. Duels were a matter of honor not thuggery.
I have no idea how you even misread what I wrote Felix, I really don't I was explaining the concept behind a Duel not how the guns worked. Everything has a risk of injury attached to it regardless of how safe you want it to be. Shit happens
@Forgotten Weapons: Please read. (everyone else is invited to do so too, since i would love some feedback here) Excuse me, i don't know if anyone else already said that but: As you said in the video, you can take out the firing pin. Well that is to load the gun. The firing pin isn't a problem for failures if it is not in there. And i believe there is one part missing at this gun. A little grip at the end of the firing pin. A one like it is used to push the drum forward. Why i guess that? Well because if there is one and you took the firing pin out, you can use it at ejector (for empty ammo). And last but not least: You always have the right position of the firing pin, so no piercing of the primers or missing it. That should solve the most problems of that gun right? Greetings from Germany.
As it already has a screwdriver slot in the firing pin, I had thought that an acorn nut would make a proper finial for it. Now I believe your idea has more merit than my own.
I believe there might be a missing piece in the form of a nut behind the firing pin, which would allow the user to secure it in place at the desired length. Maybe the maker wanted to use different types of ammunition or replace the piece easily. Maybe the user is supposed to unscrew the firing pin before reloading to make it safe. It looks like an interesting proof of concept, maybe it would have worked a little better with a hinged firing pin.
I can imagine, at the firing pin was a kind of wingnut or lever you had to turn on the other side of the hammer, one "rotation" this screws the pin out so it's safe to load, then you turn over the wing and the pin is adjusted to firing depth. That piece is missing, and the solution.
I know what your'e thinking, did he load 6 bullets or only 5? Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I've kinda lost track myself. But I don't want to be one shot short so I should load one more. You've got to ask yourself one question: does he feel lucky? Well do I punk?
If the splines were in the opposite direction, you could reload safely, until the last chamber if filled. Nice mechanism, someone really showed their love of firearms and fine craftsmanship with this!
Watched a documentary how the wine industry paid to demonized absinthe and linked it to making people go crazy but really its safe. I can find it any liquor store.
I think that is a fair assessment of what motivated this firearm. This gun reminds me of the many "gadgets" that litter the homes, labs, and workshops of engineers I know. They engineer things purely for their own reasons, make them very finely, and then move on since it satisfied whatever it was they needed satisfying. Such is the way of the mysterious species known as Engineericus Odditus.
I think you'll find that the common engineer is in fact a species of homo sapiens. I propose a name which reflects this, Homo Sapiens Engineeris. Closely related to your garden variety Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
If the cylinder spun the other way, that would fix the problem. That way as you load, there isnt a round under the "hammer" until your 6th chamber, which you can load, close the gate, and fire immediately.
Orr... how about you have holes for loading the cylinder on both sides instead of just one on left side or right. So if you want to load the whole cylinder you use the left one and if you need to have immediate access to a loaded chamber you use the right one.
With such tight fittings, a somewhat beavertailed grip and a straight release hammer that can be adjusted for soft to hard primers this looks to be like a target pistol for recreational target shooting.
That was my thought too, almost like this gun was for someone who didn't have a thumb on their shooting hand with the way the action is worked with the index finger.
It may be less that the person designing it had no thumbs, and more that they may of been trying to increase the fire rate of a single action revolver while maintaining a sight picture. I mean, it looks to me like it was intended to be fired by 'walking' your index (cocking) and middle (firing) fingers. And without your thumb getting in the sight picture while drawing a hammer back, you could keep your target lined up for multiple shots.
I love these little mechanical oddities. I can't help but think there is a piece missing on this that sat on (screwed onto?) the end of the firing pin and controlled depth (maybe something distinctive or fancy that someone took or that snapped off). If there was a knob attached to the threading on the firing pin, set such that it screwed onto the firing pin but with a cowling that only let it move to a specific depth, you could use it to back the firing pin out for reload... and then ensure that the firing pin only moved forward far enough to detonate the primer when you moved it back in after reloading. It would still be a manual job but... it would give you safe-ish reload and take the guess work out of setting the firing pin depth. If you look at it right at 6:13, it does look rough there... either unfinished (unlike the rest of this thing) or as if the rod broke off.
Great review! Got me thinking-- have you ever encountered a gun that fell outside of any classification (shotgun, pistol, etc.) and was completely unique in its design?
Ian I'm not sure if you saw my previous comments where I showed you the designer, manufacturer and a picture of a complete example of this gun. I know you get to many comments to go through, but I thought you would appreciate this information.
I think my comments are perhaps being removed. Its from a French designer named Dartein. Here is a link to a picture with the missing part still in tact. www.armesoubliees.be/dartein-1872-revolver-a-helice-dscn8545-jpg.html
Definitely looks like a very early prototype. When you're trying to make something complex, it's usually best to test and perfect one thing at a time while fudging the rest, and that's what this looks like; someone wanting to see if they can make a splined cylinder work, so they cobble together a weird stock with a manual indexing knob and a hammer with an adjustable firing pin so they can test the central mechanism without having to invent a complete, practical gun before they even know if this is a good idea.
I instantly spotted the screw out striker there, clearly that was the way to load, screw it out of range of the primers, load all 6 chambers, screw it back to the firing position. A very interesting if somewhat impractical firearm.
Put the reloading opening on the left side (after the round that's going to be fired). If you leave an empty slot it's safe, if you load it fully, it's cocked and ready to shoot
Not Pulverman also hammers typically (not always) strike a separate, inline firing pin, whereas strikers are a direct link between the spring and primer, combining the mass and the firing pin into one unit.
I wonder if this wasn't intended as a target pistol? The strange grip may have been chosen by a particular shooter because they felt it was "just right" for them, and the convoluted loading system and lack of ejector would be less of an issue in that kind of usage. Certainly the single action aspect would give it an effective "set trigger" I cannot see this gun being of any use as a combat weapon, so apart form a design study what other options would that leave?
I believe it to be a Cavalry pistol with the strange axis - ideal for shooting down on infantry types from horse back. It also has a lanyard swivel in the butt, another indication of cavalry use (you do not holster the weapon after firing, you let it go and the lanyard stops it from falling to the ground). If it were a Cavalry pistol, the arcane loading system - and lack of ejector - makes sense because you load it before mounting your horse and if necessary use it. Even the best pistol is difficult to reload while on horseback, and certainly if in some engagement, so it might be considered that reloading is something you did with this pistol if you survived the day. The only thing that counts against the idea of it being a Cavalry firearm is that the method of cocking the weapon means that only a small movement of the trigger is then sufficient to fire it; this is usually the requirement of a target pistol - makes little sense if you are trying to control your steed but thinking you are going to make a precise shot., whereas a trigger action at the end of the cocking movement would be better for a short range defensive weapon.
Forgotten Weapons, Did you measure it to see if it was Metric or Imperial in dimensions? That would narrow down where it was made. It looks to me like an experiment on something related to the automatic revolver idea. That could put it at turn of the century. Or it could be something very recent - a deliberate steam punk gun. Do you know the caliber? A "One of Everything imaginable" fired brass collection would help identify these mystery pistols.
Unless it was made in Great Britain or somewhere else within the Empire! which was huge back then , up until 1971, Imperial (Feet & Inches , Lbs & oz , Pints and Gallons ) were the measurements of the UK & the entire Empire now Commonwealth so it might be harder than you might think .The UK started to change in the early 1960s I was lucky enough to be just starting school at that time so I was taught both Metric & Imperial systems & also how to convert one to the other so have little problem with either system , Metric is all about base 10 nice and consistent and simple ,whilst Imperial is more difficult due to the different bases used dependant on what was being measured ( You certainly needed to know your tables ) , base 12 for inches to feet, base 3 for feet to Yards,1760 yard to the mile , base 16 for ounces to pounds , 14 for pounds to stone , 20 stone to 1 hundredweight etc. and that's before we even started with the Money , again involving different bases 4 farthings in a penny 12 pennies in a shilling 20 shillings in a pound , 21 shillings in a guinea ,and so gradually after WW2 the metric system took over bit by bit and by 1971 We even changed the pound(Sterling) but kept the same names of pennies and pounds, though most of them are are all but forgotten by most people We still often refer to Lbs & ozs or mile's yard's feet and inches , Pints & gallons , those even a few years younger than Me only learned the imperial system as History, so most people have forgotten them & gotten on with Modern life , I loved the Imperial system but I'm pretty certain the Metric system is a better with less margin for error to occur due to misunderstandings on measurements or values . As an example The US Gallon is smaller than a UK Gallon, in the UK a gallon is 4.546 litres in the US it's only 3.785 litres , How many gallons of gas will I need to go to - werever ? X amount , 3/4 (.75% ) of the way there We run out because I meant UK Gallons and You thought I meant US gallons , a similar thing happened when Nasa lost a Mars orbiter or lander a few years ago so I believe that virtually all measurements for space vessels and such equipment is now only ever in metric to prevent such problems occuring again .Good thought about brass though .
That is why I believe the firing pin is removable! You 1st remove the pin then reload and pray you don't lose the pin by dropping it and it bouncing to "who knows where!"
While obviously super querkey and of some questionable design , I actually quite like it If only it was more common it would have made a nice prop in sci-fi movies , with the hammer back and some paint it looks like a sweet blaster There is a pretty thin piece of metal joining the barrel to the frame (well 1 screw it seems) so if only a few of these got made id guess this is the only one left, but as you said it has a good chance of being a prototype so probally was the only one in the firstplace.
Generally in open top revolvers, like all the pre '73 colts, it is the Arbor (cylinder pin) that provides the structural strength. The connection at the bottom of the frame is really just to prevent rotation.
I know with middle-late 19 century firearms, the ability to reload at all without having to handle loose powder or fiddle with paper cartridges was in of itself an absolutely insane advantage but oh lordy. That chance for accidental discharge while loading *all five rounds* would make me reconsider if just for a moment.
I think the fact it has a screwing firing pin is exactly to avoid an accidental discharge, and I also think you originally didn't have to regulate the firing pin every time, there was a nut screwed behind it, it acted both as a stop and as something to make more grip with the fingers. Since this gun is that old it's safe to say the piece behind the pin got lost
i think the weirdest fact is that it doesn't looks like a "crappy homemade" weapons with pipe, wood and other metal scrap, no here it looks polished and clean, really awesone!
It kinda reminds me of how a revolver might work in the Fallout Equestria universe.Mouth bites on the grip.Tongue works the trigger and the “firing pin”....not sure how to reload but neither the less(probably the only one who would say it),Looks cool and worth collecting
I've seen some machines for handling textiles that work very similar way . Belgium had alot of very advanced fabric machines in the later half of the 1800's
4:26 they "solved" the loading problem, by having a firing pin that can be unscrewed, before reloading u have to unscrew the fire pin, than u can load the gun, than screw the firingpin back in, job done. Also and iam speculating, but this gun looks like it was designed by a army guy, or for the army, it has a lanyard eye on the grib, all officers in the army had a lanyard attached to the gun!.
This gun clearly is come kind of prototype ,looking at the reload mechanism. I bet the creator wanted to make a second version with a better reload mecanism but never got the chance for it.
Why can you back off the firing pin? To reload the piston without accidental discharge. No firing pin contact rounds not fired. Seems common sense to me.
I see this gun as more of an art piece, the action must be so precise for this to work right and it's so decorated, I kinda dig it. I can see where the creator was going with this
Very beautiful Clockwise cylinder rotation would greatly improve reloading and a modified cocking lever and trigger could make it double action similar to the Star revolver. The adjustable threaded firing pin is truly genius.
+Forgotten Weapons Hi Ian you might've seen but a viewer called hoilst has left a comment attributing this firearm to a guy called W Heath Robinson. Don't know if that's true or not but thought I'd point it out. Keep up the good work.
Likely a joke. From wiki: "The name "Heath Robinson" became part of common parlance in the UK for complex inventions that achieved absurdly simple results following its use as services slang during the 1914-1918 First World War."
Ah I feel quite the fool. Irregardless thank you for illuminating my ignorance in such detail. I guess I shouldn't highlight the comment positing the inventor as one sir Gul of Lible, probably another ruse.
Hi Ian, yesterday i watched your video about this cool revolver, and today i found a very similar one at the last auction from Hermann Historica Munich. This was a "Mercier Reims, about 1873". It has the same transportsystem.
Looks like it could be Belgian or French. The pistol grip its self is what leads me to think that. But I could be dead wrong. It just seems like a common trend for Belgians and French to design crazy pistol grips like this, ecspecially on earlier revolver examples like this beautiful piece you have here. Keep it up Ian, your channel is a valuable and very important resorurce. "Ad Multos Annos" Too many years, good luck!
Seems like just having a mechanism to tilt the firing pin up vertical and out of the way would give you a safe and very fast Abernathy/Nagant gate style reload. So close to being finished as something practical.
I noticed a couple of interesting design features this revolver has. 1)You don't need a thumb to operate it. 2)It'll probably break your trigger finger if it accidentally discharges with your finger in the wrong place.
I think a knob is missing from the firing pin so you can unscrew it and load then tighten it up and the knob stops it from going to deep on the primers.
There are other revolver or pistol designs that required you manually cock the weapon in a similar (but different) way. It is a bit odd when you think of it in a cold single action army revolver kind of way, but some other pistol designs even required two hands to operate, like the volcanic pistol. For all we know it was made just for novelty, or plinking.
This is quite a fascinating piece. Maybe if it had been developed with a top break for loading and a more conventional shaped grip it could have been a contender. Im pretty sure it could have been further developed into a double action mechanism
Now I get how you are suppose to reload this gun. You first cock it, than remove the firing pin to prevent discharge of a bullet than start adding the cartridges in. But I guess no one would think that in the line of "getting shot at by 3 other guys".
I think the best way the firing pin could have been done is to have a lever (perhaps latching) on the firing piece that, in the forward position, keeps the firing pin in firing position, but if you flip the lever backward, it pulls the firing pin to reloading position (or allow you to remove it). There would be some mechanics involved, and you would have to get rid of the threading, but this would allow you to simply flip the firing pin lever to disengage it and then be able to re-engage it when you're done reloading, without worrying about getting it back to the right depth.
Mark the threads to the depth for fire and safe. An easy fix to the design is to allow the lower rotating block to slide back all the way into the lower receiver to allow the splines to spin free. Or remove material on the front of that block so it disengages just at the end of travel of the cocking stud. It only needs to go another quarter of an inch. Neat pistol.
I am guessing this was made by a French Art/Design student whose Uncle was a machinist and allowed his nephew to use his shop during nonworking hours. The chambers in the cylinder look like they used a thick rimmed cartridge like the .45 Galand. Perhaps it could be categorized as a, " single action, manually operated, semi-automatic revolver" ?
This is really cool! I want the blueprints so I can make my own, and reverse the direction of the cylinder rotation. Like a lot of the other commenters, I think this was intended to be cocked with the index finger and fired with the middle finger. That's an instinctive shooting technique. The lanyard loop on the bottom of the grip suggests that this was a military prototype. (In addition to to lack of adjustable sights, if it had adjustable sights I would have guessed it was a target pistol)
Gotdang! I know im late, but i think i caught something Ian didn't for once in my life. The firing pin is missing a back part that screws on. A part that would make it longer and easier to unscrew. You're supposed to unscrew it completely when reloading. Then (if i am correct about this), not only can one safely drop the hammer to rotate the cylinder, but you also have your "stick" for ejecting the empty cartridge.
4:55 the good solution to this problem (provided you have to stick with this wacky mechanism for whatever reason) would be to redesign that firing pin to be easily cammed back into a locked position to the rear, similar to the locking notch on an MP-40 or your HK weapons, so that the hammer could be freely dropped without the firing pin protruding far enough to strike a primer. This notch would basically double as a safety notch/switch; if the gun is fully loaded and the firing pin is cammed back, you could cock it and drop the hammer without sailing a round. Would it be practical? No. Would it be overengineered? Yes. Would it still be cool as hell? Hell yes.
An actual forgotten weapon. Very interesting
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I'm betting the pin's adjustibility is for reloading.
"Let me just put back the firing pin before I shoot you. One moment please!"
So do I. Afterthougt maybe.
I was thinking more of loading the gun.
+Niko Achtzehn it's most likely a competition pistol
I'd bet that's a possibility. A real possibility. I really do dig the design, But I Suspect it's too rich for my blood. I kinda dig target pistols.
You know what I know about this gun it was made by a guy called phillipe flachette in 1884 in belgium this was a number of concept guns he tried to make for the french army this is the second that was made the first one wasnt very reliable, Phillipe had a small workshop he was nothing big he was just very good with mechanics I think he made 3 concepts but they never went into full production as he didn't have anyone to back him all because the shape of the grip. I only know this as I bought some of his diarys and blue prints at an auction a few years back.
This is why this kind of stuff really belongs in museums in stead of auction houses.. to borrow a sentiment form Indana Jones.
DarkVoidDan cool
Show the blue prints please I'd love to look at them
Are you willing to share what was in his diary and blueprints?
Thank You Sir for the knowledge
"No, Mr. Bond." *points this pistol at him* "I expect you to kill me rather easily."
Videogametourist What kind of amazement would come from Scaramanga using one of these?
T L Shorty Shorty wtf??
"It's not totally horrible" -- Ian McCollum, 2016
But horrible enough🍻
If only the loading gate were on *the other side of the firing pin* it wouldnt be totally absurd.
+Nathan Ware There's a number of kinda weird and somewhat absurd things about this gun. Honestly, I think it's part of the appeal.
- my gf
Title of your sex tape
I'd imagine that the missing piece would help with the reloading! That firing pin screw changes diameter distinctively near the end, I'd imagine there was some kind of finger friendly wheel on the end. Which would enable easy unscrew and also allow for a stop when screwing the pin back down. Given, as Ian said, the gun is well finished, that ugly firing pin screw left exposed doesn't fit the rest of it.
@@Armored_Muskrat How on earth did you manage to find that????
@@Gilmaris theres a comment above this one that gives the patent
@@yaalikejazz3960 You mean the one I replied to? Yes - that's what I'm baffled about. The name of the gun, or its inventor, was not given in the video, nor its description.
I think I read about this gun in a book about the history of handguns. The gun actually makes perfect sense when you realize that you use both your pointer finger AND your middle finger to operate the gun. Your pointer finger moves the "trigger" that pulls the hammer back while your middle finger actually presses the trigger that fires the gun.
When you use both fingers, its actually pretty safe to reload and extremely convenient for shooting since you have the accuracy of a single-action with the speed of a double-action.
ryelor123 I would still say that "...it's actually pretty safe to reload..." is still a bit dubious - one slip of the finger, and...
Though I'm also of the belief that the firing pin is missing a stop nut of some sort on its tail end that would make it reasonably quickly removable for both use as an ejector and for legitimately safe reloading. With the comments finding evidence that this was designed around the 1850s, this really wouldn't be as ungodly slow to do(compared to the standard firearms of the era) as it would be only a few decades later as revolver & general firearm development accelerated exponentially.
@@RyTrapp0 you can look at the patent here->patents.google.com/patent/US102782?oq=%22Jules+Edouard+De+Dartein%22and see it had a odd little nodule at the end of the firing pin
@@yaalikejazz3960 That’s amazing! How did you find that? The gun didn’t have any patent numbers or anything, but it’s undeniably the same design! Incredible…Great work!
@@LOVEMUFFIN_official uhh thanks yea I just found it on the internet
This is like if Salvador Dali designed a firearm....
Famtomerc Dali could certainly draw and paint real firearms, I’ve got a print of his and it clearly has a rolling block rifle in it. He was a very accomplished life painter. I don’t think he ever designed a firearm but if he had, I like to think it would have looked like this. 😄
Wow, holy shit, thinking same thing lol
@@WineScrounger whoosh
Well, i've heard he designed a sword for his membership in the spanish national academy or something, where you were obliged to have a ceremonial sword. It was designed with a blade so thin, it could be rolled up like a meter in a round sheath. smart, eh?
During his steampunk phase.
It looks like it was designed by someone who's only firearms knowledge was from a vague description over the phone.
DEUCE AND GUNS your sense of attention must be that of a dead person as he said this was made in the 1800s. Most people didn't have a phone, get your delivery right for a joke next time.
r/Woosh
Mr3344555 bruh chill he was saying it looks funky that’s all man
“So there’s like... a hand thing... it comes out of the bottom of the gun and you hold it and you push something and it fires”
Mr3344555 you always this ornery?
I bet the original firing pin had some sort of butterfly or knurled end on it to make it easier to unscrew.
It probably unscrewed all by itself in operation.
I think I know why it is designed this way. The designer had no thumbs. Probably lost them making some other quirky steampunk pistol.
Seriously guys (and Ian) can you name any other handgun of that era that could be efficiently used if your thumbs had been amputated?
Custom made for someone with no thumbs (or nasty arthritis) and a lot of money?
Thats my thought as well. Someone who couldnt use a single action due to an accident but had enough money to go to a gunsmith and have a custom made gun done. Reloading wouldnt be so much of a problem as long as it was just a carry around weapon for protection.
Dont know why he wouldnt just spring for a double action.
But then you couldn't really hold the gun...
Maybe the foward half of his thumb, but it's probably not practical if the entirety of the thumb is gone.
I think it was meant to be fired with your middle finger and cocked with the index, thus giving you a higher grip on the gun.
Thought the same
I never would've thought of this on my own without months of firing time, and I think you just fixed a problem that exists on one firearm ever made
Kudos
This gun is a very specific design. If you didn't notice there's actually a swing hinge at the bottom where the splines are.you swing that mechanism out and it allows you to rotate the barrel without having to cock it.
Could it be a duelling pistol, where you unthread the firing pin, load it, rethread the pin, duel, then repeat the process?
Exactly, it is too impractical for any other situation.
Sorry but I think you are wrong. By the very nature of a Duel is to have God decide as judge in a disagreement between two parties. The rules are that the guns are to be musket firing smooth bore handguns and MUST be single shot only. Duels were not meant to be 100% lethal, They were intended to have a risk of death not a near certainty of death like you would have with a multi shot rifled revolver.
Duels were a matter of honor not thuggery.
How is it thuggish to use this thing that could very well go off in your hand reloading it?
I have no idea how you even misread what I wrote Felix, I really don't I was explaining the concept behind a Duel not how the guns worked.
Everything has a risk of injury attached to it regardless of how safe you want it to be. Shit happens
@@Kit_Bear ya sound like a douche.
@Forgotten Weapons: Please read. (everyone else is invited to do so too, since i would love some feedback here)
Excuse me, i don't know if anyone else already said that but:
As you said in the video, you can take out the firing pin.
Well that is to load the gun. The firing pin isn't a problem for failures if it is not in there.
And i believe there is one part missing at this gun.
A little grip at the end of the firing pin. A one like it is used to push the drum forward.
Why i guess that? Well because if there is one and you took the firing pin out, you can use it at ejector (for empty ammo).
And last but not least: You always have the right position of the firing pin, so no piercing of the primers or missing it.
That should solve the most problems of that gun right?
Greetings from Germany.
Yeah. It does look like it's missing a few parts.
Ultra Marina Damn Germans and their knack for engineering.
Yeah, that makes sense. The threading on the back of the firing pin would be useless otherwise.
Only question is how far it protrudes off the back!
As it already has a screwdriver slot in the firing pin, I had thought that an acorn nut would make a proper finial for it. Now I believe your idea has more merit than my own.
I agree, I also think that because of the angle of the grip, it was meant to be fired from horseback.
Whenever I use a Banana to simulate a gun, I'm simulating this gun..
Just so you know.
Oh hey, you found my carry pistol! Where'd you find it?
1873.
Well y'know, one moment you're going for a pleasant walk in the prairies, the next moment you're at the Little Big Horn. You know how it is.
Don't drink and time travel.
I believe there might be a missing piece in the form of a nut behind the firing pin, which would allow the user to secure it in place at the desired length. Maybe the maker wanted to use different types of ammunition or replace the piece easily. Maybe the user is supposed to unscrew the firing pin before reloading to make it safe.
It looks like an interesting proof of concept, maybe it would have worked a little better with a hinged firing pin.
"nut behind the firing pin"... For a moment I thought you were referencing the shooter of a handgun like this.
@@dobypilgrim6160 your comment is underrated my good sir
I can imagine, at the firing pin was a kind of wingnut or lever you had to turn on the other side of the hammer, one "rotation" this screws the pin out so it's safe to load, then you turn over the wing and the pin is adjusted to firing depth. That piece is missing, and the solution.
Solution for the reloading problem: Put the gate on the other side.
I know what your'e thinking, did he load 6 bullets or only 5? Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I've kinda lost track myself. But I don't want to be one shot short so I should load one more. You've got to ask yourself one question: does he feel lucky? Well do I punk?
I said reverse rotation but its the same thing, we are both correct
Or reverse the rotation of the cylinder
If the splines were in the opposite direction, you could reload safely, until the last chamber if filled.
Nice mechanism, someone really showed their love of firearms and fine craftsmanship with this!
The guy who designed it must be on too much absinthe
Wild wild west amiright?
+Charlie Baylor nope it can't be because it's European
Do you not like jokes? Because that was a joke.
+Charlie Baylor 😁👍
Watched a documentary how the wine industry paid to demonized absinthe and linked it to making people go crazy but really its safe. I can find it any liquor store.
As a steampunk enthusiast, I see loads of ways to make this work. Just, none of them would be simple. Very extravagent.
This gun emanates a “bet I can make a gun with no existing mechanical systems?” Kind of vibe
I think that is a fair assessment of what motivated this firearm. This gun reminds me of the many "gadgets" that litter the homes, labs, and workshops of engineers I know. They engineer things purely for their own reasons, make them very finely, and then move on since it satisfied whatever it was they needed satisfying. Such is the way of the mysterious species known as Engineericus Odditus.
I think you'll find that the common engineer is in fact a species of homo sapiens. I propose a name which reflects this, Homo Sapiens Engineeris. Closely related to your garden variety Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
If the cylinder spun the other way, that would fix the problem. That way as you load, there isnt a round under the "hammer" until your 6th chamber, which you can load, close the gate, and fire immediately.
How about the opposite? You have slow reload time... maybe having immediately access to a loaded chamber IS a good idea?
If you unscrew the firing pin and use it as the spent cartridge ejector, it is very safe to reload. I'm thinking that is the reasoning for the design.
The firing pin is not long enough to be used as the ejector.
Jake Jones It might be if there was a long enough piece screwed on to the back of it, there is certainly room.
Orr... how about you have holes for loading the cylinder on both sides instead of just one on left side or right. So if you want to load the whole cylinder you use the left one and if you need to have immediate access to a loaded chamber you use the right one.
Despite it’s design flaws, I’d still be proud of it if I built that in my garage.
hell no
hell yes
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's an awesome and unique piece and someone put a lot of time and effort into this.
With such tight fittings, a somewhat beavertailed grip and a straight release hammer that can be adjusted for soft to hard primers this looks to be like a target pistol for recreational target shooting.
it seems like the trigger is positioned to be pressed with the middle finger.
I like that
+Jeffrey Reardon its like saying fuck you 2 times
That was my thought too, almost like this gun was for someone who didn't have a thumb on their shooting hand with the way the action is worked with the index finger.
It may be less that the person designing it had no thumbs, and more that they may of been trying to increase the fire rate of a single action revolver while maintaining a sight picture. I mean, it looks to me like it was intended to be fired by 'walking' your index (cocking) and middle (firing) fingers. And without your thumb getting in the sight picture while drawing a hammer back, you could keep your target lined up for multiple shots.
@@tanall5959 yes, you should post your comments instead of just reply, that's really a significant advance to that mystery concept!
I love these little mechanical oddities. I can't help but think there is a piece missing on this that sat on (screwed onto?) the end of the firing pin and controlled depth (maybe something distinctive or fancy that someone took or that snapped off). If there was a knob attached to the threading on the firing pin, set such that it screwed onto the firing pin but with a cowling that only let it move to a specific depth, you could use it to back the firing pin out for reload... and then ensure that the firing pin only moved forward far enough to detonate the primer when you moved it back in after reloading. It would still be a manual job but... it would give you safe-ish reload and take the guess work out of setting the firing pin depth. If you look at it right at 6:13, it does look rough there... either unfinished (unlike the rest of this thing) or as if the rod broke off.
This is the "Do You Feel Lucky?" revolver! Good luck loading it! You never know. Take a chance! Have fun!!
Great review! Got me thinking-- have you ever encountered a gun that fell outside of any classification (shotgun, pistol, etc.) and was completely unique in its design?
The closest example would be the Villar Perosa.
Ian I'm not sure if you saw my previous comments where I showed you the designer, manufacturer and a picture of a complete example of this gun. I know you get to many comments to go through, but I thought you would appreciate this information.
what about the gyro jet? isn't that more of a hand held dumb fire repeating rocket launcher?
@Dublin Newlan That comment is nowhere to be found? At least not for me.
I think my comments are perhaps being removed. Its from a French designer named Dartein. Here is a link to a picture with the missing part still in tact. www.armesoubliees.be/dartein-1872-revolver-a-helice-dscn8545-jpg.html
Definitely looks like a very early prototype. When you're trying to make something complex, it's usually best to test and perfect one thing at a time while fudging the rest, and that's what this looks like; someone wanting to see if they can make a splined cylinder work, so they cobble together a weird stock with a manual indexing knob and a hammer with an adjustable firing pin so they can test the central mechanism without having to invent a complete, practical gun before they even know if this is a good idea.
I instantly spotted the screw out striker there, clearly that was the way to load, screw it out of range of the primers, load all 6 chambers, screw it back to the firing position.
A very interesting if somewhat impractical firearm.
Put the reloading opening on the left side (after the round that's going to be fired). If you leave an empty slot it's safe, if you load it fully, it's cocked and ready to shoot
So... does that count as a hammer or a striker?
A striker is just a hammer that doesn't swing.
Um...yes!
Linear hammer AKA striker.
No, it's clearly an Hammker!
Not Pulverman also hammers typically (not always) strike a separate, inline firing pin, whereas strikers are a direct link between the spring and primer, combining the mass and the firing pin into one unit.
I wonder if this wasn't intended as a target pistol? The strange grip may have been chosen by a particular shooter because they felt it was "just right" for them, and the convoluted loading system and lack of ejector would be less of an issue in that kind of usage. Certainly the single action aspect would give it an effective "set trigger" I cannot see this gun being of any use as a combat weapon, so apart form a design study what other options would that leave?
Would have adjustable sights
I believe it to be a Cavalry pistol with the strange axis - ideal for shooting down on infantry types from horse back. It also has a lanyard swivel in the butt, another indication of cavalry use (you do not holster the weapon after firing, you let it go and the lanyard stops it from falling to the ground). If it were a Cavalry pistol, the arcane loading system - and lack of ejector - makes sense because you load it before mounting your horse and if necessary use it. Even the best pistol is difficult to reload while on horseback, and certainly if in some engagement, so it might be considered that reloading is something you did with this pistol if you survived the day. The only thing that counts against the idea of it being a Cavalry firearm is that the method of cocking the weapon means that only a small movement of the trigger is then sufficient to fire it; this is usually the requirement of a target pistol - makes little sense if you are trying to control your steed but thinking you are going to make a precise shot., whereas a trigger action at the end of the cocking movement would be better for a short range defensive weapon.
This looks like the type of weird gun that you turn into a blaster for a Star Wars show, like the Bergman or Mauser C96
Forgotten Weapons,
Did you measure it to see if it was Metric or Imperial in dimensions? That would narrow down where it was made. It looks to me like an experiment on something related to the automatic revolver idea. That could put it at turn of the century. Or it could be something very recent - a deliberate steam punk gun. Do you know the caliber?
A "One of Everything imaginable" fired brass collection would help identify these mystery pistols.
Unless it was made in Great Britain or somewhere else within the Empire! which was huge back then , up until 1971, Imperial (Feet & Inches , Lbs & oz , Pints and Gallons ) were the measurements of the UK & the entire Empire now Commonwealth so it might be harder than you might think .The UK started to change in the early 1960s I was lucky enough to be just starting school at that time so I was taught both Metric & Imperial systems & also how to convert one to the other so have little problem with either system , Metric is all about base 10 nice and consistent and simple ,whilst Imperial is more difficult due to the different bases used dependant on what was being measured ( You certainly needed to know your tables ) , base 12 for inches to feet, base 3 for feet to Yards,1760 yard to the mile , base 16 for ounces to pounds , 14 for pounds to stone , 20 stone to 1 hundredweight etc. and that's before we even started with the Money , again involving different bases 4 farthings in a penny 12 pennies in a shilling 20 shillings in a pound , 21 shillings in a guinea ,and so gradually after WW2 the metric system took over bit by bit and by 1971 We even changed the pound(Sterling) but kept the same names of pennies and pounds, though most of them are are all but forgotten by most people We still often refer to Lbs & ozs or mile's yard's feet and inches , Pints & gallons , those even a few years younger than Me only learned the imperial system as History, so most people have forgotten them & gotten on with Modern life , I loved the Imperial system but I'm pretty certain the Metric system is a better with less margin for error to occur due to misunderstandings on measurements or values . As an example The US Gallon is smaller than a UK Gallon, in the UK a gallon is 4.546 litres in the US it's only 3.785 litres , How many gallons of gas will I need to go to - werever ? X amount , 3/4 (.75% ) of the way there We run out because I meant UK Gallons and You thought I meant US gallons , a similar thing happened when Nasa lost a Mars orbiter or lander a few years ago so I believe that virtually all measurements for space vessels and such equipment is now only ever in metric to prevent such problems occuring again .Good thought about brass though .
That is why I believe the firing pin is removable! You 1st remove the pin then reload and pray you don't lose the pin by dropping it and it bouncing to "who knows where!"
~Addendum~ LOL Ok I should've watched another 30 seconds before making an ass of myself by posting my comment!
Looks like a work in progress, solving each problem
as it came along. Always enjoy your presentations, Ian.
What if the detonation of the round forced the hammer back and rotated the cylinder.
A 6 shot semi?
While obviously super querkey and of some questionable design , I actually quite like it
If only it was more common it would have made a nice prop in sci-fi movies , with the hammer back and some paint it looks like a sweet blaster
There is a pretty thin piece of metal joining the barrel to the frame (well 1 screw it seems) so if only a few of these got made id guess this is the only one left, but as you said it has a good chance of being a prototype so probally was the only one in the firstplace.
Generally in open top revolvers, like all the pre '73 colts, it is the Arbor (cylinder pin) that provides the structural strength. The connection at the bottom of the frame is really just to prevent rotation.
looks like prototype for some kind of competition gun.
I know with middle-late 19 century firearms, the ability to reload at all without having to handle loose powder or fiddle with paper cartridges was in of itself an absolutely insane advantage but oh lordy. That chance for accidental discharge while loading *all five rounds* would make me reconsider if just for a moment.
The iPhone of revolvers: design comes first
Rewatching this, I'm thinking this may have been a dueling revolver. It would explain a lot of the odd features, including the reload time.
if you need six shots in a duel you aren't doing it right.
Clearly this revolver was made right after the designer discovered Marijuana.
More like shrooms
Acid
cocaine
Black tar heroin.
All that stuff. Shaken, Not Stirred
I think the fact it has a screwing firing pin is exactly to avoid an accidental discharge, and I also think you originally didn't have to regulate the firing pin every time, there was a nut screwed behind it, it acted both as a stop and as something to make more grip with the fingers. Since this gun is that old it's safe to say the piece behind the pin got lost
i think the weirdest fact is that it doesn't looks like a "crappy homemade" weapons with pipe, wood and other metal scrap, no here it looks polished and clean, really awesone!
Definitely makes a nice steampunk prop!
Guys, guys, it's obvious who this gun was made for: some Lovecraftian tentacled horror - man thing.
Cthulhu?
Cthulus service pistol
It kinda reminds me of how a revolver might work in the Fallout Equestria universe.Mouth bites on the grip.Tongue works the trigger and the “firing pin”....not sure how to reload but neither the less(probably the only one who would say it),Looks cool and worth collecting
I've seen some machines for handling textiles that work very similar way . Belgium had alot of very advanced fabric machines in the later half of the 1800's
this one is the goblin shark of revolvers
4:26 they "solved" the loading problem, by having a firing pin that can be unscrewed, before reloading u have to unscrew the fire pin, than u can load the gun, than screw the firingpin back in, job done.
Also and iam speculating, but this gun looks like it was designed by a army guy, or for the army, it has a lanyard eye on the grib, all officers in the army had a lanyard attached to the gun!.
This man has one of the most envious jobs in the world, for a firearm enthusiast. He’s quite the historian and skilled teacher, also.
I love watching those older videos about all those incredible revolvers.
This gun clearly is come kind of prototype ,looking at the reload mechanism. I bet the creator wanted to make a second version with a better reload mecanism but never got the chance for it.
Why can you back off the firing pin? To reload the piston without accidental discharge. No firing pin contact rounds not fired.
Seems common sense to me.
Daniel Burgess Right?
Correct.
I see this gun as more of an art piece, the action must be so precise for this to work right and it's so decorated, I kinda dig it. I can see where the creator was going with this
I like guns like that
Very beautiful
Clockwise cylinder rotation would greatly improve reloading and a modified cocking lever and trigger could make it double action similar to the Star revolver. The adjustable threaded firing pin is truly genius.
Why didn't the Webley-Fosbery system catch on?
Not enough actual benefit for the extra cost.
+Forgotten Weapons Hi Ian you might've seen but a viewer called hoilst has left a comment attributing this firearm to a guy called W Heath Robinson. Don't know if that's true or not but thought I'd point it out. Keep up the good work.
Likely a joke. From wiki: "The name "Heath Robinson" became part of common parlance in the UK for
complex inventions that achieved absurdly simple results following its
use as services slang during the 1914-1918 First World War."
It was also prone to hang-fire's and jamming in dirty conditions, not very useful for what it was. A novel idea, just not an ideal one.
Ah I feel quite the fool. Irregardless thank you for illuminating my ignorance in such detail. I guess I shouldn't highlight the comment positing the inventor as one sir Gul of Lible, probably another ruse.
are those splines reticulated?
Damn, that is not a reference I even remembered, or expected to see here.
my work here is done.
I see what you did there. Good ol' SimCity...
Naw man, that's an oregono trail reference.
Jake Jones It was written and said on the loading screens for Simcity 2000.
Hi Ian, yesterday i watched your video about this cool revolver, and today i found a very similar one at the last auction from Hermann Historica Munich. This was a "Mercier Reims, about 1873". It has the same transportsystem.
3:47 that may be why the hammer has threads on it so you can move the hammer back so it won’t touch the primer
If you get like 50.000 bucks for month by patreons, would you buy all these weird old guns and shoot them for us? :D
Yes.
yay.
Detective John Kimble snowflake detected*******************
Whatever will get them to enjoy history, I'm fine with.
+Detective John Kimble Triggered Americans yay
Looks like it could be Belgian or French. The pistol grip its self is what leads me to think that. But I could be dead wrong. It just seems like a common trend for Belgians and French to design crazy pistol grips like this, ecspecially on earlier revolver examples like this beautiful piece you have here. Keep it up Ian, your channel is a valuable and very important resorurce. "Ad Multos Annos" Too many years, good luck!
The skill required to make those cylinder rotating flaps without modern machining tech is impressive.
That is the best "Half Baked" revolver idea so far. No wonder this is only one copy.
Kinda looks like something from warframe actually
i would rather have that than no gun at all.
Seems like just having a mechanism to tilt the firing pin up vertical and out of the way would give you a safe and very fast Abernathy/Nagant gate style reload. So close to being finished as something practical.
I noticed a couple of interesting design features this revolver has.
1)You don't need a thumb to operate it.
2)It'll probably break your trigger finger if it accidentally discharges with your finger in the wrong place.
It's a Glock.
:P
Eureka! It's a Zika virus victim! Mama gun was pregnant and got bitten (I know it's wrong😱).
I'm going to hell for laughing at that
+wantnotwant If God wills it I'll see you there. But unless we do something really stupid and horrible I don't think so...🍻
Oh i don´t know. Have you eaten shrimps? That´s enough for eternal BBQ from what i hear. Oh, and ham, can´t forget the ham.
Well, if Hell is real, I know that it'll have people with the same sense of humour as myself.
I think a knob is missing from the firing pin so you can unscrew it and load then tighten it up and the knob stops it from going to deep on the primers.
The easiest solution would be to have the loading gate on the left side of the gun, and simply keep track of how rounds have been loaded.
I see no logic to this design at all.
thats the fun part!
This happens, when engineers listen to sales to much:-)
There are other revolver or pistol designs that required you manually cock the weapon in a similar (but different) way. It is a bit odd when you think of it in a cold single action army revolver kind of way, but some other pistol designs even required two hands to operate, like the volcanic pistol. For all we know it was made just for novelty, or plinking.
How better to reload safely than to use the firing pin as your spent cartridge ejector?
Garrad3 put yourself in the mindset of someone in 1873.
actually it still doesn't make sense
i magine you have one hand lower down, for the trigger, and one hand ontop of that for cocking, very nice.
There are some talented folks out there...very cool piece.
This was an amazing video, thank you Ian.
I found it completely next level in coolness but then you brought up the loading🤣🤣. Still pretty cool
This is quite a fascinating piece. Maybe if it had been developed with a top break for loading and a more conventional shaped grip it could have been a contender. Im pretty sure it could have been further developed into a double action mechanism
I like that. Looks like someone put a lot of thought behind it.
Now I get how you are suppose to reload this gun. You first cock it, than remove the firing pin to prevent discharge of a bullet than start adding the cartridges in. But I guess no one would think that in the line of "getting shot at by 3 other guys".
Reminds me of an Olympic bow with all the fancy attachments lol 😆 It must have been some gentleman's target gun to show off at competitions
I think the best way the firing pin could have been done is to have a lever (perhaps latching) on the firing piece that, in the forward position, keeps the firing pin in firing position, but if you flip the lever backward, it pulls the firing pin to reloading position (or allow you to remove it). There would be some mechanics involved, and you would have to get rid of the threading, but this would allow you to simply flip the firing pin lever to disengage it and then be able to re-engage it when you're done reloading, without worrying about getting it back to the right depth.
That gun looks like it should belong in a SciFi film.
beside the practicality of loading /safety ....it is a prototype weird style , but very interessting , but the craftmanship for its age is just wow!
ForgottenWeapons is one of very few channels that comment below their videos are actually interesting
Mark the threads to the depth for fire and safe.
An easy fix to the design is to allow the lower rotating block to slide back all the way into the lower receiver to allow the splines to spin free. Or remove material on the front of that block so it disengages just at the end of travel of the cocking stud. It only needs to go another quarter of an inch. Neat pistol.
Look at that handle angle on that abomination. Thankfully a forgotten weapon.
I am guessing this was made by a French Art/Design student whose Uncle was a machinist and allowed his nephew to use his shop during nonworking hours. The chambers in the cylinder look like they used a thick rimmed cartridge like the .45 Galand.
Perhaps it could be categorized as a, " single action, manually operated, semi-automatic revolver" ?
This is really cool! I want the blueprints so I can make my own, and reverse the direction of the cylinder rotation.
Like a lot of the other commenters, I think this was intended to be cocked with the index finger and fired with the middle finger. That's an instinctive shooting technique.
The lanyard loop on the bottom of the grip suggests that this was a military prototype. (In addition to to lack of adjustable sights, if it had adjustable sights I would have guessed it was a target pistol)
5:01
This is the only reason for the threaded firing pin.
I like it!
Gotdang! I know im late, but i think i caught something Ian didn't for once in my life. The firing pin is missing a back part that screws on. A part that would make it longer and easier to unscrew. You're supposed to unscrew it completely when reloading. Then (if i am correct about this), not only can one safely drop the hammer to rotate the cylinder, but you also have your "stick" for ejecting the empty cartridge.
4:55 the good solution to this problem (provided you have to stick with this wacky mechanism for whatever reason) would be to redesign that firing pin to be easily cammed back into a locked position to the rear, similar to the locking notch on an MP-40 or your HK weapons, so that the hammer could be freely dropped without the firing pin protruding far enough to strike a primer. This notch would basically double as a safety notch/switch; if the gun is fully loaded and the firing pin is cammed back, you could cock it and drop the hammer without sailing a round.
Would it be practical? No.
Would it be overengineered? Yes.
Would it still be cool as hell? Hell yes.
I really badly want to have one of these in a modern, inexpensive revolver cartridge.. This is actually a very beautiful looking gun.