Gas Trap M1 Garand
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
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The original design of the M1 Garand as adopted in 1936 used a “gas trap” system instead of a gas port drilled in the barrel. This system used a type of muzzle cap and false muzzle to redirect gas into the gas cylinder in the short distance between the end of the rifled barrel and when the bullet left the muzzle. The system worked, but was not ideal.
Several problems were found with the gas trap system as the guns went into production. These included cleaning complexity, an unstable front sight, and a potentially weak bayonet mounting point. Most significantly, however, one rifle in testing had a screw work loose in the muzzle cap, which allowed parts to shift out of alignment and resulted in a bullet striking the gas plug and blowing the entire assembly off the gun. This led to a decision to redesign the gas system of the M1 to use a simpler gas port drilled in the barrel.
When this design change was made, 18,000 rifles had been completed and parts were made for an additional 33,000. Those guns were completed with the available parts, and the new gas system was used for all further production. Gas trap M1s are very rare today because the guns were updated to the new system when they were overhauled during WWII, and in 1947 the Army ordered all remaining gas trap rifles destroyed.
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This is too cool. I started reading “The Book of the Garand” about a week ago, but I’m only on the part about the .276 and other developments after WWI, and not the specifics of the production model M1 itself yet. However, there is a photo of John Garand at the beginning of the book with his rifle. Upon further inspection, he is holding the gas trap version of the M1! It’s one of those “blink and you’ll miss it” details that I wouldn’t have thought to look for until it was brought to light by this video. Great content as always!
I'm sure it will sell high.
They had a gas trap shot off the gun that wasn't supposed to happen at all.
I had - in the national service in Denmark in the 1980'ies issued a Garand with a 3 digit number - don't recall it now - about 40 years later. It must have been rebuild with the new barrel as it had the gasport and did not unscrew. Furthermore the reciever was well worn - so much, that in fact it had to be put down with a little caution - or the bolt would drop out.
I recall this because they groaned over my "luck" when testing gasmasks we had to quote our rifle without the gasmask before being let out. What they didn't know was: I was a qualified NBC instructer with the NBC-officers course, and having fooled around some with CS-gas and was to a large extend immune to CS-gas - at least in the concentrations used in the gas-hut. So I had a conversation without the gasmask.
Hope my comment is usefull.
If your rifle was American made, with a low Ser# like that, it probably was rebuilt from a gas trap. After WW II Denmark bought some of their M1s from Italy (made by Beretta and Breda). Those rifles would have been the later gas port rifles. Italian made rifles are marked either "BMR" or "BMB" for Breda or "PB" for Beretta. I lucked into a Breda Danish reciever in the 2000 range.
The perspective makes the bullet in the background look ALMOST fittable in the garand... 37mm anti-naval M1 Garand? yes plz.
I've seen one in 458 win mag, id buy it
I wanna see Ian walk over to the wall and you could barely see him at the bottom of the screen. He has to get a ladder and reach up with what looks like tiny hands, and he comes back to to the table with a cartridge you'd use to shred through a parade of tanks.
Several years ago I got to fire one round from a Gas Trap Garand a collector brought to the range while I was Range Officer.Neat experience but to tell the truth It shot just the same as a regular Garand
Ian, I wanted to ask you a question. You've gotten hands on with so many unique and interesting weapons that few other people have, has there ever been a weapon that you really want to get a hold of for a review but can't find, or can't access?
The hellriegel 1915 original piece
@@tastychunks He's done a video on the G11. IIRC there's one at the HK grey room in virginia
@C M 😂😂
@@tastychunks That video is several years old. I’m sure it WASN’T ever on his list. He knows of way more unique guns that are much more interesting than what you’ve seen in Hollywood movies. He even said that there are quite a few scattered around in museums and showcases, so there’s no difficulty in getting a hold of them. Guns that only have 1 or a few surviving are the guns that will be on that list.
Your mom
Thank you for your very well done and informative video, it's very much appreciated. I bought my 1943 Springfield Armory M1 Garand from a friend of mine in 2010, and I love it, it's wonderful weapon. I've wanted an M1 Garand since I was a small child, laying on the floor in front of the old black and white TV watching "COMBAT", with Vic Morrow. Needless to say, I'm a very happy and thankful senior citizen who finally has his Trophy.
I don't know who surprises me with answers to (old warhorse) firearms questions more, you or C&Rsenal. Back in the mid to late 1960s a family friend found an M1 Garand and several other WWI and WWII rifles for sale at (for even then) very low prices at a small rural general/hardware store and purchased them all as the basis for his later, rather large, "shooting" military arms collection. Of the semi-automatic rifles the M1 gave him the worst fits because it did not match, perfectly, any of the diagrams for take down that he could find. I'm about 99% sure his M1 was a "gas trap" model now that I've seen this video. Our friend eventually figured out that he had a variant of the "standard" M1 Garand and decided to keep it as pristine as possible and only cleaned the grease out of and off of it. To the best of my knowledge his son who inherited his collection and estate in 2008 and is a collector himself, still has that M1 in what I suppose would be called "NRA New" condition, his father, having only fired two clips through it before retiring it to his gun vault. I last saw it in that vault in 1999 or 2000 if memory serves. Considering that the rifle was purchased for about $150.00 cash I would be curious what kind of money it's brother sells for at the upcoming auction. As usual an interesting and educational video. Keep up the great work.
The opening bid is 12,000$ for this riffle in this condition.
Holy crap! lougrims, my friend Larry (we have been friends for six decades and were class mates from 1st grade to high school graduation) would fall into a dead faint if anybody offered him that kind of money for his Dad's M1 assuming it is indeed a twin to the one featured in Forgottenweapon's video, which I suspect it is. In fact, he'd probably keep it and buy an even better gun vault than he already has....Which is a very, very good one indeed. Thanks for the information. I'm going to try and get hold of Larry by phone and let him know what that M1 MAY be worth assuming it is indeed the variant in question. Thanks for your kind and timely response!
Hey man, that's really cool. Let us know in a reply about his rifle, I'd really like to know the outcome.
Indeed.
FD Mackey
Wow! Might want to be quite sure, but that sounds like a really neat deal.
This is my favorite RUclips channel, great job
The amount of people butt hurt that Iam pronounces John Garands name correctly is amusing.
1:00 this is hard to believe for me. They already had plenty of gas operated machine guns.
How hard is it to buy an m1 these days? I've been out of the country for the better part of 10 years so I don't know what it's like there now. Is that government surplus m1 program still going?
Ya CMP still sells M1's
I got mine from a gun show there was a decent amount to choose from so they are still out there just pretty expensive
You can get milsurp M1's. Lots of people are gougers, lots of people are not. You can make one too ;D
I got mine a few years ago from the CMP North store in Ohio. Since I was there in person I got to pick my own. :awe:
The CMP still sells them AFAIK, but they certainly have become more expensive and a little harder to find. They're still available, though. I'd get one sooner rather than later though.
The m1 displayed in the Smithsonian’s ww2 exhibit in DC is a gas trap version of the m1. The more you know.
I don't think these would have worked with the M7 grenade launcher, which was designed to block the gas port when a rifle grenade was in place to keep the excess gas pressure of launching a grenade from damaging the action.
Wonderful explanation clear and concise. A big part of history and it’s evolution thank you for A very detailed look into the mind of Garand🇺🇸
Hi Ian,
Do you have any experience with the Schuster m1 gas trap conversion? have you ever handled one? Im very interested in the mechanism and was thinking about picking one up. Thank you
Do you know what would be really rare. A Ho-155 30mm Japanese aircraft cannon. Or better yet a Type-5 30mm cannon.
You have played too much War Thunder
Just a little. I hate the game but I can't stop playing it.
Love the game, but hate Gaijin. The alternative is Wargaming's offerings, which are too arcadey for my liking.
Other than those two game devs there isn't really anything else out there.
IL-2 1946 cough cough
Thanks for the lesson. I din't know, that a GasTrap system existed.
In a direct comparison to the German G41, the Gas Trap Garand seems less nose-heavy.
So much easier to handle and faster to aim a target.
In fact the nose- wight of both Garand systems must not have differed much.
(sorry for ma poor English, but I live outside the USA, and never learnt it)
What is that shell in background?
It's a 37mm round for the Pompom.
Looks like a 37mm. perhaps for the Maxim pom-pom he did a video for a little while ago?
a 37mm pom pom bullet
.50 BMG
My bad it's clearly a 30-06
Why destroy them? Can't you just swap barrel and gas block parts and be fine?
By destroy, it probably was just an armory rebuild. The gas trap and barrel was probably discarded and the receiver was used again.
Is it normal for the gas cylinder on a standard M1 to come off that easily? Mine needs to be beaten into place.
I cant even get mine out lol
If the dovetail on the gas cylinder has slit cut in it then you need to loosen the front sight before removal. This creates a pinching effect which better clamps the gas cylinder to the barrel and also has the benefit of a very stable front sight. If your rifle does not have this feature and requires a wood block and hammer this is good because it's a very good fit to the barrel and again a stable front sight. This key if you want to have good days at the range with your rifle. Regardless of cylinder type. Remove as infrequently as possible.
I always thought it interesting that when the M1 (gas trap) was, after official adoption, converted to 'gas port', it retained it's original nomenclature (M1) rather than a change to M1A1.
Ian, I just sold my NPAP and bought a SAR1, and it has an X on the bolt, and bolt carrier, what does that mean?
found your channel about a week ago...have watched a lot of your videos since then...keep them coming. love it
That's a fascinating system. I can see why General Patton called it, "The greatest battle implement ever devised." It has a lot of things going for it, and some sound reason behind it all. That said, it would be a real blast chambered in .25-06, or .270. The weight would probably reduce the snap to that of a .243.
I'm surprised the army didn't give the modernized system its own designation
This still seems like a much better system than the G41 - how would they compare to each other in terms of reliability / resistance to fouling?
The M1 Garand was my dad's favorite firearm ever!
I'm so lucky I'm 13 and my dad bought me an m1 for christmas and a new gas plug
@@cantsneedgaming4591 I'm super jealous! I'm 19 and I can't buy any sort of firearm until I'm 21 due to stupid local laws. Do you know if your father got it from the Civilian Marksmanship Program?
I want a m1 grand
The windage sight was upgraded/replaced at some point... I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm guessing that rifle was also converted to a gas port system... someone must have got a hold of one of the gas trap barrels, and did some swapping. Should have done the sight too..... Is the op rod cut?
1lb 37mm for the British Maxim Pompom Gun
Ian, do you read from some sort of script? Or queue cards...something? I never see you refer to any notes...
Unmolested hah
i love how any time i look up a gun...this amazing channel is there
Thanks Ian. I knew the general concept of how a gas trap Garand functioned but have never seen one up close til I came across this video today.
I have a denix replica of the M1 Garand it’s my favorite rifle
Edit: mine is the gas piston version the later model I should say
Was this type of Garand used in combat? If so, to what extent?
Yes, they were used through WWII until worn out.
I have to get a gas trap m1. The old m1is my favorite battle rifle.
Is there a video that's just an overview of the Garand like the m1 Carbine? Thanks
Wow, only in America would a rifle that proved unsuitable have 50,000+ weapons already made for service before the official redesign was demanded. Procurement continues to amaze me with its insanity and I have spent my whole life watching it be insane. Yeesh.
The Soviets weren't much better. Or anyone, for that matter.
When they started making AK-47 rifles, they used stamped receivers. However, they soon found out that the rifles were no good; they didn't have the stamping technology to make it work reliably.
So they went on to use milled receivers, which although now made reliable weapons because they knew how to make milled receivers, were economically inefficient; you basically had to use 3kg of steel to get a 1kg receiver because they've got to cut a 3kg block of steel into a 1kg AK-47 receiver.
Eventually, they managed to figure out how to make reliable stamped AK receivers. This took a few years.
Because remember: the weapons which arm all nations were made by the lowest bidder.
Or by the one that was/is politically the most convenient (after all senators and congressmen have to secure money and jobs for their constituents (the workers and the factory owners alike!)...that's why those Littoral-Combat-Ships are made in two designs, not up to military standards (!) and more expensive than comparable foreign designs!))
Also the reason why cost-overruns aren't punished in most cases (no "breach of contract"...no! A normal person would hold them liable for the extra cost!)...and if they are: It's contract cancelled instead of re-negotiating it (that's what killed the Zumwalt-Class as far as I know and the Navy went back to building Arleigh-Burke-Class Destroyers, despite that platform being unable to support many future weapons, like say that rail-gun they are testing currently!)
ps: There's a reason the military often calls them "Little Crappy Ships" (they have almost zero survive ability - speed doesn't help if your on a ship and the enemy is using radar-guided supersonic missiles and gun fire!)...
I don't get the concern about gas ports, there were several machine gun designs that used a gas port without problem despite far heavier use than a rifle would get.
Wow. Thanks for the detailed review(s). Greatly appreciated.
Did these earlier Garands have a storage compartment at the buttstock?
how do you tell the difference between a reduction and original
Did the M1 see any service pre ww2?
No, the US didn't have any combat action between 1936 and 1941.
I find it interesting that the BAR and Thompson had action on the streets in the hands of gangsters in the 20's and 30's and then went on to become standard equipment for the largest war of all time
Yeah that's true but they were already in service pre WW2. the US got the BAR in September of 1918 - 3 moths before WW1 ended and the Thompson was issued to the marines in the late 20's and the Navy and Army followed suit in the early 30's and formally adopted it and designating it the M1928A1 in 1938. Theres an old picture floating around of a US navy patrol boat in china 1931 and some of the sailors are packing Thompsons and BARs as well as m1897 shotgun and a Lewis gun.
@@ForgottenWeapons Sir, aren't there any gas trap M1 rifle in the Philippines prior to Japanese attacks in 1941? I remember reading a book that mentioned that there were some M1 rifles in the hands of the 26th Cavalry(PS) during the Battle of Bataan.
28,750.00!... look twice in grandpa's collection!
What is that huge cartridge behind you?
It's a round for the 37mm Pompom.
In case of torpedo boats.
lol
Does anybody know if there are similar rifles like the first cufiguration of the M1 which didn't have mechanical problems? I know that the G41 from Germany had similar problems.
Most of the gas trap gun did reasonably well at the time of their introduction, but none were wildly successful.
Forgotten Weapons
Okay, thanks for your answer! :)
So my 215xx Springfield Armory receiver M1 would have originally come built like this, nice.
If you took the gas cap off it'd be a bolt action...
What is the reason for having the gas port (on the standard M1) so far out and such a consequentially short dwell time? It seems a smaller port with a longer dwell time would solve some of the ammo sensitivity problems.
Hi Ian, could you cover some LMGs such as South African SS-77? Also if you could make vids on Madsen Saetter (you have some info on your site but no vids yet) or belt-fed version of AR10 perhaps??
I always wondered how these worked. Thanks Ian!
Talk about your escalation of force! went from an M1 .30-06 rifle to an M2 .50 Machine gun.
How did the idea that a gas port would cause reliability problems first originate?
Did a sceptic/Luddite just come up with the idea for an excuse to dismiss the new technology and make it harder for self loading rifles to be accepted by the military? If so, couldn't an endurance test between the two technologies disprove said fears?
Though I suppose the technology wasn't developed to an acceptable degree until WW2, at which time the gas ported rifles would have proven their worth through hard service anyway.
When I was in middle and high school I had the privilege of maintaining the ceremonial Garands for a couple of VFW and. American Legion posts. I got to see several different makers, but there was one that looked a bit different at the business end. For my contribution I was able to keep the spare parts from some of the more neglected rifles and I was able to keep a couple entire M1s. Fast forward a couple years and hard times found me selling some of my more prized surplus arms to the local gun shop. I brought in the unique Garand along with a run of the mill Springfield. The owner took quite an interest into what I would later learn was a gas trap M1 and paid me roughly double that of the others. I would not learn of what history I’d had in my possession until years later when a museum curator told me that he and many of his colleagues had never even possessed one. That one still hurts.
Another gem! Do u ever aquire any of the weapons u feature in the videos? Just curious, I would be spending most of my earnings on some of these examples of great American technology.
Does rock island have any m2 carbines from Vietnam era? . I know the USMC used that in Vietnam :)
Just found out that the British got the m1 in 39 to test and made it full auto
They called it the YSLR
Yanky self loading rifle
They loved it just not in full auto
Have you ever come across a US Rifle, Model of 1917 Caliber 30? I have one of them an its the best bolt action rifle in my opinion.
My M1 is a 59,XXX. so it was among the first 8,000 gas port rifles made. luck of the draw when i got it through CMP years ago.
this is SO cool!!! Thanks Ian!!
I really don't blame them for thinking a gas hole would lead to problems, I mean when you think about it, you really have to think about "what's the worst that could happen" when coming up with a design or idea.
Ian, to me it looks like the gas trap/plug/block on the original m1 could be removed by just undoing the one screw while the cylinder remained on the rifle. So like the gas port m1 the cylinder could stay on the rifle during cleaning or is there some sort of lock up of the plug with the spline of the front site?
I don't know if I am saying this clearly.
The weakest point in the M 1 as well as the M 14 is the front end. It is well engineered as far as the gas cylinder or flash suppressor being keyed into position but the problem is how the gas cylinder or flash suppressor is locked into place. Since the front sight is directly attached to these assemblies and if becomes loose you will end up shooting basket ball sized groups. If you notice even in the movie Full Metal Jacket when Ermy checked private piles rifle he checked the flash suppressor to make sure it was not loose. On the M 1 there are two styles of gas cylinders that I know of. The main differences being in the dovetail for the sight. One will be solid and the other having a cross slit. The cross slit type has a pinching effect as the front sight screw is tightend down making for a secure fit to the barrel. Remember to loosen the front sight screw with this type before removal of the gas cylinder. This in theory has a longer service life as it not dependent on the keys precision and wear over time as it is removed for maintenance. My suggestion is to remove the gas cylinder as infrequently as possible.
tent didn't they just sell them
To the civilian surplus market through stores like Sears and Robuck least they could have made some money
If I was in a position I would had grabbed a few of those. I mean, they are throwing them out. Defiantly do not want all of them to be destroyed, for historical examples if nothing else.
So the gas trap isn't so much a different system all together but rather an attempt at using gas to cycle the weapon, it's just a product of the understanding(or lack thereof) of gas operated systems
I am sure glad I didn't have an M-1 like that. Can you imagine how it is to clean for inspection?
My M1 is made in 1940, serial 5X,XXX. proud to have an early production one. It is a gas port one, it is interesting to know it was so close to being a gas trap rifle.
Aren't those the later style sights? I thought early Garands all had lock-bar sights. If so how could it have late war sights with a gas trap?
Very cool. Love seeing how technology changes, and love your technical approach in your videos.
This Channel is awesome!
37mm shell casually just chillin in the background
So many screws... Mr, Garand screwed this up.
In case anyone is interested, the channel NRApubs has a video on one of these including firing clips
Ian you should do a QA for /k/ you are a god to them, if you respond thank you.
Why not pin the gas block in place? it seem it whould have been easier to make
Ian, I came across a video on an M1 Tanker, a shorten M1 Garand. I'd love to see a video on it.
Question can this modification shoot modern ammo. M1s tend to not be able to shoot modern ammo.
If the gas trap was destoyed or removed, could you load the rifle manually with the charging handle after firing? Or would it just be completely non-functional
Yes, sure it will be functional. Otherwise any misfire would cause serious problems. Some gas-operated systems even have a gas regulator, which allows to close a gas-port, effectively turning the weapon into manually operating.
Iraqveteran8888 even has a video of AK endurance test, where the gas piston jammed due to extreme overheat, but the weapon was able to operate by loading it manually after each shot.
hey man...can you tell me the advantages of a gas port system over gas trap system?
Great explanation.
Very smart move changing the design. The end result is a lot safer and easier to maintain.
Bonus fact. The Dansih Sirius patrol men that patrol the northern greenland with dogsleighs, use the m1 garand still today. Its apparantly the only rifle that can stand up to that abuse.
Greetings from Denmark
when tightening the gas plug do you have to field strip the gun itself or can you just tighten the screw?
If I win an auction, do I get a bonus HE shell like the one in the background?
"The US went head long into WWII" not the most historically accurate words you have used!
How So?
Zip it turd
Head long , meaning reckless without haste, the war was raging a fair while before the USA joined I'm sure they where well prepared compared to other countries forced into the war, and far from reckless!
@@Goodwithwood69 They wasn't really prepared. The US was effectively a 3rd world military at threat point in time, still real-ling from the great depression.
The US was preparing for a potential war, as well as the Lend Lease Program(A not exactly subtle delivery of arms to the allies).
The US also joined at the not so opportune time of her navy's partial destruction of its pacific fleet. They fought battles with water cooled Browning an bolt action Springfield rifles, instead of their less than numerous at the time M1.
The US might have been in a better position than most, but it wasn't exactly ready for a fight.
They had to go headlong into the fight.
Not reckless tho?
very informative, I never knew that there was two variants of the Garand.
Thank You.
@Forgotten Weapons is that a french 37mm shell for the Renault FT tank gun in the background, on the left of the James D. Julia sign?
Yes. It's the same ammunition used in the Maxim Pompom.
Even the Masterpiece 1 started life off a little rocky. Once you said the retaining screw fell out while firing, my butt puckered thinking ahead to the insert sliding out of alignment and blammo.
That was my first thought too, I just knew it was going to end catastrophically when he mentioned that little screw falling out.
Excellent! Thank you.
Why were they so worried about drilling the gas port when the Lewis, DP28 and Mondragon already existed?
As a mainstay rifle for every soldier, the engineering spec. said that it needed to be simple, reliable, and effective with little maintenance required. The maintenance required on much more complicated guns like the Lewis and the DP28 were well outside of the spec. that the M1 Garand required.
It's refreshing to see some things that are still unmolested, especially in a current state of numerous molestation accusations.
Hey Ian, garandgear.com has a gas trap M1 conversion piece. I have not been able to read anything about it online, as there is nothing, do you know if they are any good, and if it would use the gas trap length barrel from criterion?
Im sorry, the manufacturer is actually Schuster MFG
Hey i have a question about the m1. Why does the forward hand guard not go all the way around the barrel? Was it just to dissipate heat from firing or is there another reason?
It does, it's just not wood the whole way round. The forward handguard is slotted to accept a small metal plate that separates the barrel from the gas piston. As seen here: picturearchive.gunauction.com/444275/9132379/60832a7e5825264698fda739ac375d7f.jpg
Well done sir! Gas trap Garand is news to me.
Without that gas stuff it looks so bad ass