Does Ironheart Suck? [Riri Williams]
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- Опубликовано: 4 ноя 2022
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Riri Williams A.K.A. Ironheart has been getting a LOT of hate, but now that she's in Black Panther 2: Wakanda Forever, the hate machine has started up all over again, but is she really THAT bad?
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The Brain Teaser, Bonnie Davies, Nevets Faulkner, Senita Mahoney, Jonathan & Megan Pierson, David Adler, Milton Appling, Ralph Braganzan, Ethan Dannen, Yoav Haimovitz, LookWhosFhtagn, LuHeDi, Casper Qvortrup, Andrew Shaffer, Talentless Hack, Vydal
The song 'Sunray' by Kupla was provided by LoFi Girl.
Tags: #IronMan #Ironheart #BlackPanther 
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I think Riri is a good example how "mid" is usually worse than "bad".
middling? mediocre?
yeah mid means mediocre
& this is a perfect example of why StormFront-wannabe’s absolutely confuse the `sh*t’ out of their bandwagoning uneducated following or unfortunate 1s who just bumped into their fun-sounding garbage with their `sh*tty’ takes, •sith~like absolutes• , & even `sh*ttier’ terminology which encompasses all these made-up idiotic concepts made just to have a quick & quippy derogatory slang-language that they laugh bout stuff with amongst themselves & their bandwagon.
The word “Mid” should have never gotten out of hand & outa the stormFront-forums or high’school-bully senes & been adopted into today’s mainstream media. 🤦 it’s only forcing everyone to abandon their less “black & white” ratings by instead enticing them to using smthn more trending & drawing them to a toxically magnetic “gray-line” right down the middle of the spectrum, in-between the already magnetizing black & white extremes. 🧠 it’s subconsciously making people feel the need to bring their 8s, 7s, & 6.5s down to `sh*tty’ 5’outa’10s just to sound relevant, trendy, & laid-back…
…
…inconsiderate of how their now also `sh*tty’ takes are *adding fuel⛽️2a fire🔥of HateGroups’ already magnetizing bandwagon-effects,
& in-turn, less-insignificantly, & more-harmfully affecting the lives of rising up’&’coming good-writers who just took over the jobs of bad-writers to continue the stories of certain characters with a lot of potential in a more just-light, & who are actually actually making promising progress with these characters to the point where they really don’t deserve any of the over-inflated hate they’re getting…
i mean, yes, moreover if we have characters in the MCU like Morgan with a lot of more emotional potential
I hate the word "Mid".
What really got me rolling my eyes was the issue when Riri said Pepper was responsible for EVERY good thing Tony ever did!
Seriously? Did Bendis not know there was a 20 YEAR period where Pepper wasn’t in the main cast?
He already had Patsy and Julianne or the other spider-woman.
If I remember correctly Tony n Pepper never dated in the comics. Only started happening in the movies
@@treyurbach2550 He is an MCU Stan.
@@ggt47 which is weird since he started writing Tony in 2004
I'm not a writer, and I understand the comics industry is really complicated but wouldn't it have been more interesting for Riri to stick with the "bad armor" for a while and have her make gradual but meaningful improvements to it over time and having her be clever in how she overcomes challenges instead of just having Tony come in and help after one semi-successful mission?
It kind of inadvertently sends the message to young black readers that "if at first you don't succeed, hope a white, billionaire will help you"?
100% agree.
Don't forget "go ahead and steal what you want, the white savior will reward you anyway."
I think you just described the Spiderman Homecoming movie uninentionally. XDDDD
I kinda dont understand how some people are professional writers for comics. Like I see tons of good counter points and ideas just from passionate fans that are superior to some people who’s hobbit is to write. Just look at the webcomic Batman family adventures. It’s shown understanding and depth of these characters core and what some readers enjoy much better than many comic writers are showing.
@@historyking9984 Everything is circumstantial
It's really clear that you really WANT to love comics! I appreciate you keep taking risks in contributing to the discourse, even when you're not feeling something - your tone and encouragement for us to go read comics and form our own opinions is something that keeps me coming back to your videos. Thanks for the thoughts and see you in the next one!
“Bendis completely dropped the ball he set up for himself.”
This is the best way to describe most of Bendis’s writing and characters. I’ll never forget when he made a statement defending his choice to kill Rhodes and Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote an essay arguing that defense and handed it to Bendis.
That whole mess made me not like either as writers.
@@ExeErdna Who is Ta-Nehisi and what did the write?
@@ManiacX1999 He's the one that wrote Capt America and made Red Skull after Jordan Peterson...
@@ExeErdna except that's fucking genius. Of course Red Skull is gonna be one of those jerks who over-philosophises their puddle deep ideology.
@@ExeErdna He wrote the Red Skull who made Trump tweets and post incel videos?
Honestly this vid just proves my point that sadly my buddy doesn't get: it truly is the plot and the world drawn around the characters more then the characters themselves that are the writing issue sometime. Characters always are going to show their best or worse traits depending on the plot written for them and when we realize it isn't just character but plotting we should be asking for, then hopefully more opportunities to make proper diversity will be possible. And if it leads to less boring missteps like Riri went through in her early run, will be better focus for criticism in the long run.
Her hatred stemed from marvel removing and replacing all their poster boy characters with diversity regardless if it made sense or not. Don't think it would have mattered if riris story was the BEST work bendis did in his life time. People saw what marvel was doing and felt disrespected as fans
I'd say it's everything. Character, setting, story, etc. If one aspect is wrong then it'll forever be wasted potential.
Whenever I look up videos on the decline in the comic book industry, I often heard that it’s because of forced politics or sjw.
Drake’s videos on the matter and your comment is very refreshing for me.
The comic book landscape has inherent problems that I felt no one talks about too much. Focusing on how politics and diversity was the true culprit for ruining comics and that stuff is very frustrating for me to hear.
Plot and characyets are intertwined it does not matter of the story is amazing if you get bored whenever a character shows up character is just as important
basically, there are no bad characters, only badly-written ones
After Bendis stopped writing her (dear lord does he suck nowadays) I actually found that she became more interesting than most of the other younger newer heroes.
Because of the various trauma in her past (which they may have overdid a little in my opinion, having her lose multiple family members and friends) she actually became kind of anti social and withdrawn, which made her stand out from the rest of the Champions by giving her unique character flaws.
Hey, he gave us Miles Morales, so we can thank him for that.
How do you find the lost of many friends and family overdone?
@@CleverGurl8 first of all, a hero losing a loved one as part of his origin really is a cliche by now.
but I was refereeing more to the fact to the quantity (Riri lost like two father figures and one best friend to gun violence if I remember correctly)
@@KainGerc what city is she from? Might make sense depending on where her upbringing is
@@benmalsky9834 Well.......Miles also was trash when he was under Bendis
I think my main qualm with Riri (aside from her haphazardly taking over the book of my favorite superhero when there were still loose threads in Tony's ongoing story) is that we see (well, actually hear about) how smart and capable she is, while also seeing her character flaws, but she never has a true "save the cat" moment. There's nothing that shows the character's true motivation or why we should cheer for her, in light of her over-the-top technical knowledge at 15 or her cold narcissism. This isn't just a Riri problem, but a problem with most heroes introduced in comics from the past twenty or more years. It's either "wow, look at their cool powers or knowledge", or "hey, this character is so flawed", or "look how dark and gritty this is", without giving us a look at the heart of the character. This is one reason why I've always loved Iron Man - despite the ego, the sarcasm, the avoidant personality, the trauma responses, the drinking, the recklessness, or any of his other flaws, we see the man with a literal broken heart inside, a man who wants to make the world a better place, and fight injustice. Dare I say it, but you hit the nail on the head when you said about how Bendis' characters are better when he isn't writing them, and this is entirely why. Remember how I mentioned a "save the cat" moment? Maybe Bendis needs to read Blake Snyder's book of the same title, so he can figure out how to make actual sympathetic characters.
The honest answer is kind of.
bro shut up
@@shaunbryantjr2355 I mean I actively went out and tried to buy her comics and I just really didn't like them. She isn't that great of a character.
At the time as a African American teen I felt alienated by her. I really couldn't relate to her. Her adventures were interesting but kind of mediocre in the grand scheme of the world of comic books. Besides her character design she wasn't really anything of note for me.
Actually it’s no. It’s the writers that screwed her over.
Would’ve been cool if she had more agency. I don’t want an iron man legacy character that’s a kid. They should age her up
@@frogurtcremebrulee5252 Yea tbh if they get her a good writer she'll do great
After I found about her re-writes from different authors, I for one do like RiRi Williams a lot more than I did before, and I'm really happy that she's finally been given the chance to fully become her own character.
Also, as a black guy & someone who loves creating original characters, I just felt like Bendis's version of Riri lacked any character substance beyond the surface-level struggles that have been stereotypically given to so many other black characters throughout all of media in times past and present (the murder of Riri's father was the first example that came to my mind).
Riri, like Miles, didn't feel substantial and real to me until a creator of color started telling their stories.
To be fair, Bendis has always been better when playing with other people's toys than making his own. Look at Miles's original run
Also take into account that Bendis has two black daughters
Oh shit she got a rewrite from someone that wasn't Bendy?
...Fuck man I'm gonna have to look into that.
We gotta give her to a poc writer than can make something golden
i think riri works really well in a team dynamic (like the champions) because the "genius with poor social skills" archetype is fun to read when contrasted with optimists like ms marvel.
but yeah i've only read her most recent solo book and that was pretty mid. it did some interesting lore stuff with tying her backstory to the ten rings, but it didn't actually make me feel invested in her as a character.
she's just shown up with an interesting role in the current iron man book so hopefully that goes somewhere!
Do you mean she's bland?
Riri in all honesty is someone I always saw as a lot of squandered potential; she started off with such an interesting angle as a kid genius who struggled to make real connections, and got over invested in the rare connections she did make, and how that all kept affecting her as she got to the precipice of becoming an adult and still struggling to even see the point of having friends
But then all that was tossed out so we can learn her father was secretly a super villain because... Eh?
The ending bit was just perfect. Just really needed to be said
And 90% of us aren't going to listen. One of the delightful parts of the human experience.
@@hellblaze10 50%
@@hellblaze10 85% take it or leave it
"I'm not saying you're a racist if you dislike a black character... BUT!!!"
@@michaeldodds6092 he's saying that you should create original characters instead of a duplicate. Black Panther, AfroSamurai, Onyonkopon (AOT) and Finn ( Star Wars) are good and original black characters,
but lil mermaid, miles morales, riri williams, it's all a bad reboot of original iconic characters
I'm surprised that you brought up that the name Iron Heart was also in an Iron Man porn parody from Japan that came out before RiRi debuted and that the armour they used look a lot like the armor she had I found that hilarious.
That's a weird place to steal from
@@Gloomdrake when pornos have better ideas, it’s time to get better creators.
It really did feel like Riri could’ve been pretty good if the writer didn’t drop the ball, I still can’t get over that one flashback like wtf. Writers like Bendis seem to really lost their touch and it looks like writers after him kinda have to do damage control for the character.
Every time Drake says, "There are no bad characters, just bad writers," I dream of the day when someone finally makes a comic with Holden Caulfield where his character works. Probably by getting punched by literally everyone in the world.
Yeah. We can even base Holden off of you. 😂 Makes him all the more punchable.
@@mdtisthebest6249 why so mad?
For real, Catcher in the Rye is turbo cringe - I have no idea why it was taught in school
What's wrong with Holden Caulfield?
@@victorjr9369 I don't know who he is, that's what!
i think the biggest ingredient in her getting that much backlash was that she was too samey with the "real" iron man. she had stark's suit, she had his smarts, she had his character flaws, but really the only thing different WAS her skin and gender, and thus that's what all there was to see. people really only came around to miles too when he stopped just being peter again and did what HE did, around itsv. i dont know how she is now, i dont read comics, but still, that first impression didnt leave too much of any taste at all enough for any surface level criticism to NOT gain traction
"I don't read comics"
That explains everything.
That's the problem with most of the legacy characters. They act the same as the ones from before so they feel pointless. That's why I think Ms. Marvel, despite even appearing in Marvel's "Generations" series and being so heavily tied to Captain Marvel, did so well. She may have the name and the color scheme but she's completely different in every way. Same goes for all the sidekick characters at DC.
Miles was far more successful at the start. Because his character wasn't the same and his powers had small differences. He became more popular after the Ultimate timeline but he did good there too unlike Riri. Also Spiderman has a history of adding new spiderman anyway, so by that alone Miles being a new spiderman in an alternate near future timeline initially was not hard to take in. But Riri came out of nowhere inserted into the current timeline as just black girl stark with not much progress to show for it and wasn't very likeable.
@@toontrooper4103 who cares if they are the same. That doesn't make them bad characters
"I dont read comics" can tell
Couldn't care a less about her under Bendis. I really liked the run by Eve L. Ewing though. She wrote Riri with great verisimilitude and truly captured a voice for the character that resonated with me.
I love how the mcu turned riri from mid to slightly above mid. It could've been worse but what they did with her character in black panther 2 is pretty good.
I mean... she did basically nothing in that movie besides be the objective of one chase scene...
@@ricknaturalls2065but you also could argue that even T’challa didn’t do much for the plot in Civil War, where he was introduced, other than be a reason Cap and Bucky had to flee sometimes. He had character development in terms of letting go of vengeance, and Riri had development in terms of getting braver. But other than that, just being introduced and having their personalities and powers shown off is enough, until their own actual stories.
@@Fantallana T'Challa did way more in Civil War than Riri did for Black Panther, and I would argue his development was way more satisfying too.
@@ricknaturalls2065blinded by Chadwick’s performance because all he did was chase people and look cool for most of the movie. Riri didnt have chadwick’s acting but she was way more important to the plot.
@@PkrJMC T'Challa went through an entire arc of overcoming vengeance, brought the Wakandans into the conflict to make the Winter Soldier more of an international threat, was directly responsible for several major plot beats included Bucky's capture, and got an emotional reconciliation with the villain. Riri was a macguffin. She technically kickstarted the events of the plot but she had nothing to add to it and no character development to go alongside it. She barely had anything interesting to say at any given moment besides some stale jokes. If you want to call that more important to the plot, up to you. She was technically a big factor in it, but not by virtue of her character but by virtue of the plot. But she was undoubtedly a worse addition to the plot. It's not a issue of Chadwick vs. Dominique, it's a matter of T'Challa vs. Riri. I'd take T'Challa any day.
Her revised suit was actually quite a good redesign. Besides the colour choices, the arc reactor design probably what makes it stand out. This design of a 'hear' is made more abstract in the movie version which I like even more, especially as it keeps the highly prominent black colour but changing the pink to red, which gives it a more 'super car' feel. The top of the helmet also has these grill designs almost like they're braids which make it look less boring despite how small the detail is.
The new suit looks bad too. If this was DBZ she’d be comic relief.
I liked Riri enough. She did at least get better when Bendis left & it kinda helps that Marvel didn't completely drop her like a rock to help garner a decent fanbase.
She definitely went more smoothly than Bendis's other attempt at making a young Black Woman superhero coughNaomicough
I'm honestly glad Naomi blew up in his face since her whole concept was clearly derivative works that reminded me of Supes, Starfire and Invincible all wrapped up in one boring character. It's funny DC went as hard as they did that an untested character got their own show before the first comic run was over...
@@ExeErdna Naomi blew up in his face because he was trying too hard to get a CW show. Of course the actual reason it was cut out is the same as the reason Batwoman, Legends of Tomorrow (RIP Booster Gold, only appearing at the end of the Season 7, now series finale, I'm sure Drake wasn't happy, seeing as he's a Booster Gold fan) the Batgirl movie and a handful of cartoons on HBO Max were cut: The new CEO of AT&T is an asshole.
@@mattwo7 They threw everything at the wall for Naomi and Bendis' writing NEEDS a Jim Shooter like editor for them to clean that shit up. A lot about Naomi felt like first drafts Bendis can't keep hiding behind that "I'm writing things my daughters can enjoy" like my man it isn't good like there's crappy YA that's masterwork compared to Naomi...
Personally I haven’t read the comic but I thought Naomi’s show was really good very wholesome and had a unique charm
@@mattwo7 Personally I haven’t read the comic but I thought Naomi’s show was really good very wholesome and had a unique charm
The problem with iron heart is that she was meant to replace both Ironman and warmachine after cw 2. Also didn’t help that there were some better options than a new character and that we got war machine punisher at the same time, which was way more interesting
One of the issues is that. whenever new characters appear, people, aka "FANS" immediately despise it now.
@@Tazirai especially when they’re shitty tokenized versions of what was already working.
Really interesting video. Genuinely was not expecting you to not like the character all the way through, but doing the work and building context on all sides really helped balance everything for a considered summation. Thanks for the hard work.
Not necessarily about Ironheart but just generally, I think it'd be cool if a hero had to stick with the prototype, clunky suit for a while, it's flaws being things to overcome (or sometimes use as a surprising advantage) before upgrading to a better one, or even gradually improving it until it's a sleek, perfect thing.
I'm sure that's been done before, but I don't remember ever seeing it.
Riri had a rough start but she landed somewhere really solid. I love reading about her now after she got her good solo run and her redesign
I like the concept behind riri, she had so much potential to be a great character but they fast tracked her was to hard instead of taking there time and crafting wonderfully creative storys for her to grow
Your comment sums up how I feel about Modern Bendis and cape stories to a T .
There’s this refusal in capeshit to let stuff take more than a few issues to get figured out. It’s a real bummer, because some of my favorite stories take the proper time to really get going. Heck, look at invincible, which had the big guardians twist from the first episode of the show was in issue 7. The comic was almost a full year into its run before it even started to play its hand.
The big publishers are really scared of letting a story burn like that, and this isn’t a recent problem, it’s been like this for a long time.
You know it’s not a good character when the film version is just as annoying as the one in the book.
Yeah I'm hoping the MCU interpretation can elevate Riri the way Spiderverse did for Miles (although I don't think Miles was as disliked as Riri was). She just needs someone to take what works and run with those parts, drop the stuff that doesn't and hopefully add some cool new stuff
Young black female genius taking over the title from a beloved character. I appreciate the sentiment from Bendis but that's putting up almost every obstacle I can think of and virtually guaranteed she wouldn't be accepted.
@@keithck3720 I think she just needs a little time and a really solid interpretation and people will like her
@@pianist150 I like to think the MCU writers are smart enough to pick and choose the best parts of her backstory as you've said and bring them into the movies.
@@pianist150 the mcu shouldn't fix anything. Comics exist
@@keithck3720 characters out of nowhere have taken over before all the time
Yes , ironheart does suck , always has and will.
My problem with Riri was how much people said she was smart but showed feats that wouldn’t highlight how smart she was.
She made her own Iron Man suit from scraps of Iron Man suits in her MIT College classes. She’s smarter than Tony Stark who made the Iron Man suit, in a cave.
Yes, the over hate was ridiculous but the writing didn’t help. I am always annoyed whenever writers want to tell me things about a character and show me something else.
I only read a couple of issues so maybe things changed but again, I don’t like people saying someone is the lighting fast but they can’t dodge a bullet. Which is it?
Riri was a great concept with poor execution. Similar with Miles Morales. Thankfully they both grew later on [>
Short answer: Yes
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Love your videos for this reason: you read, you think, you use discernment, and you thoughtfully present your opinion while stating that this is just your opinion and your viewers should also read and think for themselves.
I applaud you sir!
And I am not a comic book person, however, if I am interested in a character or story arc, I will see if you have a video, watch it, and then make my choice. Thanks dude, keep it up.
I just got big SpyKids vibs from her. Nothing felt earned. Tony and Shuri had the best access to wealth, education and resources available to them as children, so it makes sense they were ahead in the field.
The reason why characters like Riri and Miles are received negatively is not because they are held to higher standards. It is because they are presented (or at least perceived) as a replacement for the far more iconic originals. Storm, Vixen, Luke Cage, Blade etc. are positively received because they are original, well written black characters.
I've never read ironheart but I did get the pleasure of seeing the flashback scene on twitter and while weird af. I kinda understand what they were going for. She wanted someone to say she can't do that thing so she can go out her way to prove them wrong. It was just very odd in how they decided to do that
It was dumb and made her look terrible. Compare that to a defining moment like say static shock's origin and you see the valley of a difference. If written well she could be a good character, the problem is she had a nasty personality which made her unlikeable and while that could work if done right, she was already disliked for replacing ironman at the time.
It depends on who writes her, any and every character has the chance to be great. Unfortunately Bendis gotta Bendis. Her new suit is cool in the comics and her character over in Spider Punk is fucking dope. Just give the writer for Spider Punk a Riri series
People get so hung up on hating a character that they seem to forget they're... you know.... a character. A work of fiction. Something written by an actual person. It is well within reason to hate a portrayal of a character only to find another portrayal of that same character that you love. It all comes down to how they are written.
For example, I am a huge fan of Christopher Cantwell's take on Iron Man. He has vices. He has big glaring flaws. But you see he is aware of them. You see him battling against them. It gets you invested in his struggle. Makes you root for him. Conversely, I cannot stand the Iron Man from Civil War II, where he is written as this overly hostile, paranoid moron who is perfectly fine kidnapping and torturing the future predicting inhuman..... Seriously, everybody hates on Captain Marvel when it comes to that event. Did everyone forget Tony was being stupid in that story as well?
@@mediabaron2416 also very few of the people who complain about comics actually read comics
I never liked her character because I was an iron man fan and it bothers me when they just "replace" somebody. Similar to keeping the beetle name without the original guy, etc.
Nah that first in the movie was to much for the first time. She begged a classmate for $80 cashapp in the beginning but owns a supercar and a perfect ironman suit.
She didn't beg him though? He hired her and didn't pay
I have a lot of problems with Riri (a lot of wich have been fixed) but one of my biggest was the fact that she had a Jheri curl and the fact that she somehow managed to get that Jheri curl inside that helmet.
LOL. This is the best comment. Riri is difficult to define since white nerds are scared of any FEMALE and black ones especially present a challenge to them because science was not developed for them. Hence why we need more black women in tech. Black women in the past were very entrepreneurial and inventive. They can be today with access to resources
Before Wakanda Forever came out, I was most excited about seeing Ironheart, as I was expecting the next awesome Iron Man. Sadly, I was bored by every scene with her in it. She just felt so bland.
Wow, now it makes sense why Riri felt like a poor mans Miles Morales to me, because she is. Bendis also wrote Miles Morales' first appearance and made him really feel like just Peter Parker. Only where as Miles became interesting after changes in into the spider verse, Riri still just feels and looks like a less interesting, run of the mill legacy character that's probably not even gonna be a main stay. Riri just dosen't seem interesting to me, no matter what they do with her, she looked uninteresting in the Wakanda forever trailers and clips and just looked pretty dumb after they decided to make her look like a transformer for some reason.
I really think Dominique Thorne will do a great job and give Riri Williams a great personality that gives her depth and room to explore in the future
The one thing I am getting form this video is not that Riri Williams is a bad character, she just suffers from bad writing.
Also, the thing that people need to remember about the MCU is they tend to create their OWN version of the character completely separate from the source material.
Based
I've not really had a chance to read Riri's comics as of yet but this does seem to reaffirm a lot of what I felt/suspected, that being that the way she was handled kinda meant she was unfairly doomed on arrival. I'm also really hoping that the way she's introduced into the MCU helps a lot, it looks like it'll keep some of the spirit of what she was from the comic with her cobbling together a suit on her own before being given aid by Shuri (presumably as part of Wakanda's outreach program which is a perfect way to tie into T'Chala's impact). It helps that Tony is already long dead and he won't have even remotely as direct a role, so his presence won't be constantly looming over her robbing her of any unique focus.
All speculative of course, they may still manage to screw things up (wouldn't shock me given the wonky state of phase 4 so far) but I have hope for now at least
10:30 The problem isn't that a character has flaws. It's that a character has flaws and never has the plot acknowledge them. A good example would be pink diamond from steven universe. It's fine that the character was flawed, but the fact that the plot never acknowledges the awfulness in the fact she rebelled, destroying nearly all of her people, then kicked rocks and left once she didn't feel like it anymore, is a seriously understated problem in the worldbuilding and characterization of the show and its characters. It's the same for Riri, her original run made her unlikable but the plot never acknowledges her as unlikable, and only keep patting her on the back and giving her help. If they portrayed the hero who kicked off the original civil war event as a happy-go-lucky guy who made a single mistake instead of the conceited, self-centered murderer he actually was, the same people would be saying the same thing.
That happens a lot in her solo book. Pretty much every issue of that solo book is Riri getting called out by her supporting cast for being a massive stuff up when it comes to managing her studies, her personal life, and her life as a super hero. She also loses a lot in that book. In fact, she's actually really underpowered in her own book.
This is a really well done video, I never knew no much about Ironheart and never knew that Miles Morales was a target of bashing when he first came out until Into the Spider-verse, but now I know.
Thank you for pointing out so many details people miss, like pointing out some other characters(Tony Stark, Peter Parker) that make the negative sayers look like hypocrites, and explaining what people complain about her are her character flaws, this video really helped me understand how to write characters properly and better understand Riri.
I do hope that the MCU does to Riri that Into the Spider-verse did to Miles, make them good and likable characters, all we can do is just hope.
(Also I just wanna quickly say that I do agree with you saying that it was a bad idea to give her suit coloring the exact same Tony, and from what you described from what was happening at the time, giving her suit her own color scheme was too late)
I hope Riri is done justice in Wakanda Forever
Edit: she was so likeable, hoping to see more of her in the series.
Me too, but I doubt she'll get a chance to properly shine until her own series.
I just hope that we get a good first impression of her.
Edit: I loved her. I wanted to love her so bad. I’m so glad they made her an actual character
She was good in Wakanda Forever, she did her part.
@@mjolninja9358 well that's good then. No spoilers please I'm seeing it tomorrow.
She was amazing. Her show is gonna do crazy numbers because of it too.
Riri in the beginning had some rough patches but overtime she became a fascinating and interesting character
Sounds like the Bendis Curse. He makes pretty mediocre characters but later on they become far more interesting, like Miles and now Riri
@@evanlight2550 hopefully the mcu has a sort of spider verse effect where people will love her more and see her as a hero of her own
@@marveler8994 I hope so too. I absolutely love Miles in ITSV and I do hope more characters like Miles and Riri get the same treatment
Yeah, I just hope she's done right jn the Black Panther movie
She didnt become any more intresting tho.
Personally,i enjoyed her first ironheart run(not invincible ironman btw) and her arc in wakanda with Shuri and Okoye so i'm glad she is appearing in wakanda.
I think the feeling of having something you love replace is what really pushes them. At least that is my perspective. Also I am surprised about not bringing up Jane Foster Thor here either. Overall I think the challenge is and will continue to be to promote and highlight unique characters to really put them in to the spot light without that "replacement" issue getting in their way to block their ability to grow and develop. What I mean by replacement is that they are being used to fill a gap in reader's hearts. So their expectations from the replacement is higher than if they were just on their own first.
Sam Wilson as a replacement works because he stands for what Steve Rogers believed in while being his own person. Miles has to struggle and grow like Peter Parker and is also a likeable human being. I think that Riri feels less like a person and more of a role to fill. That is why I think boring describes a lot of the things she is in. Miles Morales I think people have latched onto because he is not Peter Parker, but represents what makes Spiderman so great. Just my opinion as my total knowledge is lacking, and subjectivity is a very real thing for comics.
The fact that this is the third time that you've had to do a video on this character speaks volumes about how some people will not let it up.
Yeah, good characters usually don’t need such a defence. The armour sucks, both names are dumb, probably best to make a new character from scratch.
@@SchmergDergen i see...
@@oicangiram2694 cool
The 2017 Spider-Man animated series made Ironheart way more fun and endearing plus served as a better introduction to her character that her original comic run. Her MCU version will probably also be better received overall
Have you read comics
One of the reasons i'm a fan of Ironheart was because i was endeared alot to how she's written like someone with ADHD (and/or autism) ((also meeting her first in the Champions so she wasn't being written by Bendis probably helped))
Given marvel's track record with characters claiming to develop autism cures, i never expect Riri's place on the spectrum to get canonized like Moon Girl's was - but my reasons for thinking so include: (varying degrees of spoilers warning)
During SHIELD's rundown on her daily schedule, it highlights how she'd routinely forget to eat breakfast after getting an idea for an invention and her mom coming home to see Riri's breakfast untouched
In the Champions issue that they introduced the mobile bunker, her being fixated on tinkering with the bunker and not paying attention to Kamala's efforts to get her to socialise with the rest of the team
Her difficulty with interacting with most anyone and the whole thing with Viv
And finally her meltdown near the cliff-hanger ending of the ten rings arc
So are you sure that in the comics at least, that Riri may have Asperger’s Syndrome? If so, that would be neat for a hero.
@@fearless4him595 To me she's very much written that way. I've not seen anything in-universe or from a writer hard confirming it though.
@@snuggles4005 Cool, I’m an Aspie so I’d probably check out her newer stuff just to see it.
I was not a big Riri fan until her inclusion in the Champions run (It's one of my favorites, so I may be a little biased) where she was given the genius with poor social skills" archetype that made her stand up in the team. Hope her introduction in Wakanda Forever is well done
Bendis gets cred for creating Iron Heart, Mile's Spidey, and to an extent Naomi. However, his touch is more Midas than anything else
He did Jon Kent's character dirty forever by aging him up, and wrote the Justice League into obscurity.
@@wllngtnjhnsn bendis is on my hit list for what that idiot did to Jon. So many good Superman family man stories lost cuz this bitch decided to ruin Tomasi’s work
Riri Williams is in this limbo to me of being a character that I WANT to like but will never be allowed to like because writers will be too afraid to write for her because of the negative stigma already surrounding her causing me to want to like her but won’t be allowed to and etc etc
She’s a prime example of a writer using an original character to fill a spot that was already taken by another writers character in the hopes of scoring a paycheck when they get used in a movie or show. So instead of using Lila Rhodes created in 2014 we get Riri Williams created in 2016.
Yep. Exactly my thoughts.
In iron man iron wars didn’t tony go after ANYONE that took his Ironman tech both hero and villain to neutralize his tech and now tony is giving it to her?
That was literally decades ago and his mind has changed substantially since then.
I agree with you because you're right, not just because I like your content. Riri being shit on for being a narcissist is f'd up because TONY STARK is famous for being a narcissist. And while Riri wanting her teacher to be harder on her is certainly an insensitive character moment, I would think that someone who doesn't feel challenged in school would look for options, sometimes in even the dumbest of ways. (Remember, kids lack experience. I know as a kid I wasn't feeling challenged, but didn't know what to do about it. I eventually gave up and played a port of Yoshi on a graphing calculators. Of course, my experiences don't equal anyone else's, so grain of salt, please.)
I honestly can't afford to get into comics, but I feel Riri should be allowed to be fleshed out more. Miles and Kamala have had a lot of love and soul put into them as characters. Riri didn't get that. I hope her MCU debut will get Marvel to consider better ways for her as a character to move forward.
Short answer: YES
You seem to always refer to it not being in the comics, well, that's my issue with Shuri. They removed T'Challa's intellect and gave it her. T'Challa is one of my favourite characters in comics, but the fact that they essentially watered him down just to prop his sister up, then killed him off. To say that this upsets me is an understatement. They removed my one "representation" from the MCU, turning a movie about a powerful black king into a girl power movie.
Did u watch wakanda forever tho? Also they killed off T’Challa cuz Chadwick is dead.
@@Junya01 I know that's why they killed him off, but I was one of the many people saying they should have recasted him. And no, haven't watched it yet. Not exactly excited to watch it
@@warpath7985 and I am one of the many people who respect the decision to lay T'Challa to rest. As for Wakanda Forever, it's a good movie that kind of drags at times.
As someone who's watched it, it's not really a girl power movie. More a movie about family and grief and what it does to people.
@@Junya01 Don't get me wrong, I definitely WILL watch it, just not excited to watch it like part 1 nor do I have a lot of time to go see it (still haven't even seen black adam yet, more excited to see that than wakanda forever tbh). As for recasting him, if his own family is saying that they should recast him as that's what he would have wanted, that should have been the end of that debate in my opinion.
I do agree, I liked the old Shuri more, ESPECIALLY after she got those amazing powers.
MCU Shuri is fine too (imho), but Marvel shouldn't have made that version "overlapping" the comic one...
Let's be honest Brian Michael Bendis is the real Villain at Marvel. He did destroy Guardians of the Galaxy.
18:30 Just cause your a Fan of the mcu doesn't mean you have to be a fan of every character...
Dude ironheart is awesome, I put her in every deck I make +2 to 3 others is awesome.....
Wait she has a comic?!
> Plays Marvel SNAP, a game about all the characters from the Marvel universe featured in diverse media, especially comic book wich is were they all truly come from
> "She's from a comic book?!?"
+6 for 3 energy, that's really great!
I feel like Ironheart is an example of what Sarah Z described as "sacrificial trash". Basically, it's a piece of diverse media (bonus points if it's based off of a pre-existing franchise) which is genuinely mediocre or bad, but it gets swept up in right wing, anti-progressive spaces as an example of why "diverse media is bad", and oftentimes regular people who don't like the thing in question for normal reasons are used a a shield because when the bigotry in backlash against media like this is pointed out, there's a tendency for people who dislike the media in question for normal reasons to get defensive about it. They basically act as unwilling cloaks for the conservative motivations behind the backlash as a whole. So what we have here is a comic which is genuinely kind of mediocre, which then gets swept up by reactionaries who blame its lacking quality on the fact that it has a black female prtotagonist.
Damn. That is some deep stuff.
I miss the days when people would criticize things based on its quality alone and not be swept up in the whole left vs right culture war nonsense.
After watching her Suite I must say she is the first ever Female Red Ranger in the history. It is a huge stride I must say.
Power Rangers Samurai....
@@betterlatethannever4529 well then she is the 2nd female red rangers.
She's pretty inoffensive in her solo book. I think she's a character who has potential still, just needs a writer who can giver her a bit more charm.
Her solo book wasn't actually half bad. It had some nice ideas and the art was nice but I think it still felt very surface level.
Leaving a comment on the video itself drake!!! I can’t wait to see Riri on screen and see how she changes in the mcu
It's a +2 for 3 Units, essential a 6 for 3 energy. That's kinda good I'd say!
I get that reference!
Remember that is also alright to not care really about it and keep going forward. So if people say you should go and read it ... If you really don't want to, don't do it.
Yes, yes she does
Often times diverse characters are held higher standard because they are replacing existing characters. Just like movie sequels, they WILL be compare to the original. If someone made a white Blade or a male black widow, they'd be held to higher standard, too.
Isn't Male Black Widow just any Overpowered Spec Ops kind of character?
Sam Fisher?
@@rvawildcardwolf2843 you aren't wrong. Really the whole difference is Black widow is sometimes used for eye candy. Her backstory is pretty average for spy characters and has many femme fatale traits. Now if same Fisher however wore a suit like Black Widow I wouldn't be complaining. Man should show more skin you know?
I think Riri has a lot of potential. She definitely gives of next-generation vibes. Someone to take the mantle when Tony leaves the suit for good. I love a good mentorship story and Tony is an incredibly flawed person who would benefit to learn alongside his student.
Or not
She was a total loner. She had only 1 friend and she lost her at a young age. So to fix her, all i would do is give her back her social anxiety. She worked alone most of the time and if she has problems socializing with others, it would tell a better story then what we have now. I like the idea of iron heart but she is protrayed as Mafy sue. Despite all the help she got from people. Has she ever lost in a battle that would have changed her for the better ? What has she sacrificed by choice to be a better person ? Her friend dont count. She became distant from people because of her friend. So if we just add social anxiety to her personality, her difficulty socializing will be the weight she has to put down and in turn, will give us a better story about the strugle of a hero.
I honestly enjoy the adjustment done to RiRi for the MCU. I think it's much better for her to under apprenticeship to wakanda rather than Tony.
Newer read a comic about her, but I at least hope that MCU will stick with gundam-like design for her. It just looks badass.
Love your content. By the way since Marvel Snap is a thing, reckon you’ll one day cover some of the more obscure characters that’s running the meta? Like the early meta is revolves around either Kazar or Devil Dino while in pool 2 we have to deal with Infinaut.
every time they "recast" someone it will never be good as the original
As a guy that hasn't read all of the Ironheart books but is a fan because of the fact that Bendis is trying to represent, I appreciate all that you've said. Your "rant" at the end is how all intelligent discourse should be, not just for comic book characters, but the issues of life that we face - go in with no expectations, read up on what's there, and acknowledge your bias as you form your opinion, while having the decency to let others form theirs as long as they actually do the same. I'm glad to be a subscriber to this channel.
My only criticism of Shuri is something that's outside of her control. My only criticism is that the MCU seemingly took the intelligence of T'Challa in the comics and gave it to Shuri, seemingly making T'Challa more...normal. I would've loved to see a scene of T'Challa and Shuri having a friendly competition trying to one-up each other with some nerdy shit. Don't care who would've won , just that for the sake of a supporting character, the main character was nerfed from their intelligence. Like, my problem isn't that she's smart. It's that T'Challa isn't shown to be. At least not like Shuri. When, in the comics, he invented an entirely new form of math. My guy's a genius. Still though, Shuri's cool, and I'm pretty sure the kingdom would've benefited with two geniuses in the thrones. (Also, I'm aware that Chadwick's passing could have affected the storyteling that was to be told, but it still should've been done, imo).
Also damn, what a powerful freaking outro. Love it when a peaceful and chill RUclipsr is like "Fuck it, y'all need to learn".
I appreciate this comment
I think shuri mentioned that T'challa taught her everything she knows
@@sourjoker962 when and where?
Her suit in the MCU does not look good
In the words of Brian Zane: "Like what you like, just don't be a dick."
I remember I checked out Riri when she first came out and I was really confused who she was (cuz I hadn't read Civil War 2 yet), but I wasn't a fan, but mostly cuz she felt very temporary. However, I do like how she's written in the animated shows such as Avengers Assemble and the new Spiderman
She’s a solid “meh” not bad not good not amazing not crap. She’s literally a solid middle.
Which is probably worse…
@@evanlight2550 How?
@@Santoryu90 Think of it like pro wrestling. If people cheer, great. They like you and want you to win. If they boo, great. The crowd wants to see you get your butt kicked. If they just sit there, well you're not very useful. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.
I'm okay with Riri. The idea of people backwards engineering super tech should definitely helpful. Definitely would have benefited from a different writer - maybe one who could better understand what Riri's experience might have been. Infamous Iron Man I enjoyed a lot, but I think was an effort to capture Superior Spider-Man vibes. Interesting that Bendis went and tried something similar with Naomi. (Repeating some of the same problems.)
Another great video Drake. Your vids always propel me to go back and read comics I missed.
Also IMO approaching media with an open mind should be our default but sadly for whatever the reason brains aren’t programmed that way. It has to be a conscious choice. This is why I avoid watching trailers about movies I want to see I want as little information as possible beforehand otherwise it will make me have expectations and opinions that are not necessarily reflective of the story.
- i forgot Riri existed tbh, that whole "is Avengers 2 but teens, also the Avengers 1 are still here" era never really caught my interest... so yeah i hope we get an Into the Spiderverse but for Riri, the MCU managed to make Tony interesting they can do the same for her
- also yeah, if you wanna hate something, then actually experiencing it is going to give you even more material to bitchh about, so is still a win-win
I was in one of these echochambers of people complaining about characters like Riri and Kamala because of their race, gender and other stuff like that. They were feeding me lies and half-truths every day, and it made me the most unhappy I had ever been in my life. Hell, one of the guys I watched literally signed off every video telling me to "Stay Angry." I was stuck in that place for almost two years. I've cut these channels out of my life for almost a year now and I haven't looked back. I'm infinitely happier now.
Thank you for making videos that show people the truth instead of leaving parts out and spreading lies in order to create outrage so people will return to your channel. I hope you have a good day Drake
Hey bro, I used to be in that same place as you. I let myself get drawn into BS online discourse and political culture war grifting by people just looking to spread their own hatred onto others. I'm glad to know you've gotten out of that place too and are looking forward to better things. It's a sign of emotional maturity and growth when you move on from shallow content and ideas like that.
I wish you well, bro, and I hope you have a good day!
I hope Ironheart does a good job as a live-action she seems ok so far.
I think that a largest part of why POC characters seem to be held to a higher standard than their majority counterparts is not because they’re POC’s but because in this day and age they are almost always replacements, and replacements have to climb the extra hurdle of not only justifying their existence but justifying their superiority over the beloved original. Also, Marvel was aggressively replacing a large number of its key characters when all these came out, which made the situation A. More noticeable and B. More infuriating. I remember Death of Wolverine was pretty exciting, and Laura’s Wolverine comic was awesome. Ms. Marvel also had just come out and it was a really fun read filling a niche that was pretty open. But then also Sam became Cap, Amadeus became Hulk, Jane became Thor, and Riri became Iron Man all around the same time, and also I think they were either pushing Miles in the 616 and/or Peter was Doc Ock (which was also a great read). Also, the X-men were being severely downplayed as Marvel was trying to pretend that they weren’t trying to replace them with the Inhumans nobody wanted because of movie rights. That’s too much change to too many characters in too short of time to a fan base that generally doesn’t react well to changes. Not to mention that the changes happened to every single movie-marquee holding Marvel character except Punisher, Blade, Daredevil, Elektra, and Deadpool, and only one of those was really culturally relevant to the general population at that era
Unfortunately, when they DON'T replace existing characters and do an original story, they get cancelled. Very quickly.
@@jordanloux3883 That IS a big problem, which is why they keep trying to build their new characters by having them ride on the success of established characters by replacing them but then that doesn’t work because people are upset that their characters are replaced. What they REALLY need to do is ride the success of their popular characters by sliding their new characters in as really cool, interesting, fun side characters in big tent pole books, and only spinning out characters that seem successful. Wolverine was basically a one-off Hulk antagonist and a member of the not-too-popular Alpha Flight before being recruited into the X-men, and it was there that his popularity exploded into the fan-favorite juggernaut that he is now. I first met Midnighter in a Grayson comic and thought he was pretty awesome, so that’s why I picked up his solo book when it came out. Deadpool was an X-force villain that gained popularity, same with Venom. Heck, Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool became actual successes off of one-off variant ideas that became too popular, so it shows that new characters CAN be done. I wouldn’t say Silk is necessarily a success story popularity-wise but she did get a backlashless solo after being soft-launched in the main Spidey book
Your impersonation of the anti woke comic nerd was perfection. You, my good sir, deserve an oscar.
I'm of a similar mind as you. I disliked Miles and Riri upon debut, but once we got some different writers that developed the character's better than Bendis (I agree that he's lost his touch as a writer, making very weird decisions across the board here recently). But now, I genuinely enjoy Miles and Riri when they show up in different titles, and I'm hoping that her MCU debut will be a better start for the character than her Comics debut. Three days to go to see if my hope is not misplaced.
I'm curious as to how they will handle the character, similar to what you said about miles media outside comic books are good ways to re-invent a character. just look at the comics before the MCU many heroes that are popular now weren't back in the day.
A great idea would be not focusing on Riri herself but her potential and limitations but not just hers. Sure she can build her own iron man suit, and can get pretty close to his modern suits when given the schematics and recourses to do so, which means that there are others than could do the same, leading to a sort of internship/contest with stark industries with a bunch of other potential characters, sort of like a spiritual successor to the armor wars story line
It would just be nice to see marvel do some original characters and not just copy characters like shehulk and ironheart
She-Hulk has been around for decades and is wildly different from The Hulk's storytelling with her comics having a completely different tone. She's a foundational part of Marvel history and has been a massive part of both the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, shut the hell up. 😂
And it also deserves saying: you can just stop reading the books you don't like. When Deadpool got handed over to Posehn and Duggan I kept on reading from the Way era. But I found the book to not have the same heart I loved from the prior series.
So I just stopped buying it. It wasn't BAD, it just wasn't what I wanted.
I like this guy, he did his homework
I didn’t hate her in Wakanda Forever but she could have not been in the movie and just replaced with a throwaway nice scientist and things would have been the same. I think the actress did fine though, so she’s not starting from zero.
This shows more that Marvel are amazingly bad at developing legacy characters. Would have gone down much better if Tony had coached, or sponsored her development as a minor character that becomes a major one.
I liked ironheart, well the one written by ewing. But that could alao be seeing the character without the baggae of the earlier stories,which have issues yes. Bendis had some moments of potenial that were covered up by not so great stuff. Ewing managed to make a flawed yet rootable hero, give her a decent supporting cast and build on what was good from bendis, mainly the stuff with her tragic backstory. He also gave her new villains by adding an altered ten rings org. That is not a copy paste from shan chi. Its just plenty of comics characters who were obscure or silly or not working early on get "good" later. In that way a character like say Mantis or ironheart wont be defined by the context of earliet stuff and grow beyond their creator.
But I get Drake's veiw to. Just trying to show that developing an informed opinion he brought up.