HG teachers won't allow the teaching of a believer falling from grace. To me it is kind of a moot point: If a person falls away and rejects God, whether they had the spirit or not, they fall away. So we warn them and call them to repent.
The presumption that one cannot sin in the eyes of God, because of grace, is akin to a parent who refuses to see any fault in their children and allows them to run amok without accountability. God does not give license for us to live in denial of sin or its consequences as a result of grace.
When my four-year-old son makes a mess, he never ceases to be my son. Because of grace, we are God's children. Nothing we do or don't do puts that status in jeopardy.
Daniel King i live in kenya i recently rededicated my life to christ,am really trying to understand the message of grace,am currently struggling with an addiction and am starting to win but every time i do what my addiction forces me to do i feel guilty and unworthy of God's grace,but God reminds me of his grace and that helps me to fight on. both u and michael brown are really inputing in me GOD BLESS U ALL
Daniel King Yes I have, and I have repented. It is part of the process of sanctification, which one willingly surrenders to God. But you didn't answer my question. You deflected by turning it around on me. Nice try though. I'm still waiting for an answer.
Believers cannot sin because sin is transgression of the law and we are no longer under law, but under grace. We do still sin (that is our flesh) but our spirit does not and it cannot because it is from God. Our sins are not counted against us (our spirit) because those who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation of sin. It's really not that hard to understand, but most people would rather choose the broad way of self-righteousness that leads to destruction
@The Coming Kingdom Exactly what I was thinking. So God forgives all sins past present future except self righteousness??? That's being legalistic about legalism which is completely nonsense and hypocritical.
Shalom to all, Its not Legalism to Live Holy or preach that those who become Born Again should be living Holy and repenting of sins still commited. Repenting is a changing of mind AND action. A Born again Christian should Repent as often as they find something in their life that does not reflect the image of Christ since that is who we are being conformed to and this continues until we reach the kingdom. Its not bondage or legalism to change your mind and actions when those actions reflect the carnal nature or old patterns of the now dead person who is being made alive in Christ. "You were once dead in your sins and trespasses " hence sins and trespasses are still sins and trespasses that need to be changed. Christ delt with the eternal consiquences of those sins, however if you speed in your car then you are breaking the law and we are to submit to the authorities(Romans 13) meaning if a christian is driving a car and they break the law they still get a ticket in this life. You need to adjust your speed and get in alignment with the law --- REPENTING This is the same for the word of God- When you find something in the word of God you are not in alignment with you need to REPENT and get in aligment with it. I fail to see how thats Legalism-- I believe its called OBEDIENCE: 1 John 2:3-6 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. I wish you all nothing but peace and Joy in Messiah Jesus, Fruit of the Vine
+Fruit of the Vine Ministries Such a great post--thanks brother. I can't wait until we live in the times when even the bells on the horse's bridles will say "Holiness unto the Lord"! Can you imagine? Instead of men treating sin like a cream puff and holiness like a rattlesnake, it will be the other way around! I never did see why anyone would want a rattler cream puff anyhow... ;-)
I would encourage you to read Romans 8, You are correct, being perfect in the flesh cannot happen. But we are called to walk in the Spirit and Romans 6 says we are freed from sin if we truly have become born again. If you understand the Holy Spirit, and walk in him, you do not have to sin. Sin is a choice. Again Romans says we were once slaves to sin and now we are called to be Slaves to Righteousness. Only those who overcome will see the kingdom. Those are Jesus' words my friend, not mine.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world." [Titus 2:11-12] "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain." [2 Corinthians 6:1] "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man will see the Lord; looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." [Hebrews 12:14] The foundation of the Christian life is not grace. The foundation of the Christian life is Christ. "No other foundation can any man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Corinthians 3:11] Jesus taught that whoever hears His words and does them is wise, and whoever hears His words and does not do them is a fool. [Matthew 7:24-27] If a man believes he is saved by grace, yet is living in an adulterous marriage [Matthew 5:31-32] he is deceived. "If a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery. And if a woman divorces her husband and be married to another she commits adultery." [Mark 10:11-12] True grace will lead a man or woman to leave adultery the same way it will lead homosexuals and fornicators to separate. If a man believes he is saved by grace and would use violence to protect himself, his family, his possessions, or his country, he is deceived. Jesus taught, "Resist not evil...love your enemies...do good to those who hate you, and bless those that persecute [pursue you with violence]." [Matthew 5:38-48] True grace will lead men to turn the other cheek, to forgive, to return evil with good, to leave the military, to pray for those who hate them. If a man believes he is saved by grace and is laying up treasures on earth he is deceived. [Luke 12:16-21] True grace leads a man to deny himself, to be rich towards God, and to love his neighbor as himself. Many believe Jesus died for their sins, few believe Jesus. Many believe One died in their place, but they do not believe the One Who died. The true grace of God will lead a man to deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Jesus. It teaches men to "Enter in at the straight gate: For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." [Matthew 7:13-14] Some choose their road and accepts its destination, others choose their destination and accept the road. If the road your on leads you to divorce, another marriage, war, lawsuits, immodest clothing, pursuing wealth, self indulgence, gluttony, swearing oaths, or any other heathen practice, your destination is the burning lake and no amount of grace will save you from that end. False grace will justify those who do these things, and give them a false peace. True grace will teach men to forsake these things and to follow Jesus. The only way to avoid the condemnation of eternal fire is to get off that road and follow Jesus.
the last caller quoting Robert Sungenis is obviously a Roman Catholic who's method of totally obeying the law is through the mass sacrament and confessionals Robert Sungenis has debated James White on Mary, The mass, Sola Scriptura, and pergutory, amongst others I find it ironic that a keen follower of Robert Sungenis books can say we can keep the law if he needs all these rituals If we could keep the law the cross was not necessary only One person kept the law and he fulfilled it as well and that was Jesus our redeemer and perfect sacrifice lamb
"Nothing unclean enters heaven" If Hebrews 6:4-6 for example applies to our salvation then if we ever sin after being saved we’ll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. The New Covenant would be worse than the Old, not better. They were condemned for their actions. According to Matt. 5, we’d be condemned for our thoughts. They couldn’t murder. We couldn’t even be angry. They couldn’t commit adultery. We couldn’t even have a lustful thought. Think of it. No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? Did God become man and die the most painful death ever devised only to put His children into an even more untenable position than before? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? I can’t believe so. God took off external pressure and external restraint and put it all internally in our spirit. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” - 2 TIMOTHY 1:7 We don‟t have a spirit that is moved by fear but a spirit that is moved by his power, his love and his perfect mind. Believe it or not, a born-again Christian doesn‟t want to just go out and sin. They actually want to get rid of sin. Their new nature struggles with sin and doesn‟t like sin. The flesh and mind still like sin but your spirit doesn‟t! Sin is foreign to our spirit. The more we live by our spirit the more we can overcome sin. If we are putting “have-to‟s” on people then we are not teaching them how to walk by the Spirit but by external rules and laws that are not based on faith and which lock up the new nature. this really helped me maybe this was helpful for you too. God Bless.
Can Christians sin? They must have the potential of sinning, else why would Jesus tell the churches in Revelation to repent? What are they supposed to repent of?
Every Christian needs to listen to Dr Brown. Most people come up with these movements because they really don't want to change who they currently are (fleshy)
I don't think this characterization is true. What I am saying is that legalism has no power to change anyone, only Christ can change someone. A relationship with Christ is the only way to bring permanent change to one's behavior.
Daniel King Shalom, I listend very carefully to everything you said inthe debate and I believe there is a huge disconnect in the conversation. What your saying is the Milk, what Dr. Brown is saying is the Meat. Your talking about Salvation. Dr. Brown is talking about Living the Christian Life after salvation. You had two difference conversations and when confronted with the full council of God regurding christian living you disengaged and reverted back to salvation. Its not Legalism to Live Holy or preach that those who become Born Again should be living Holy and repenting of sins still commited. Repenting is a changing of mind AND action. A Born again Christian should Repent as often as they find something in their life that does not reflect the image of Christ since that is who we are being conformed to and this continues until we reach the kingdom. Its not bondage or legalism to change your mind and actions when those actions reflect the carnal nature or old patterns of the now dead person who is being made alive in Christ. "You were once dead in your sins and trespasses " hence sins and trespasses are still sins and trespasses that need to be changed. Christ delt with the eternal consiquences of those sins, however if you speed in your car then you are breaking the law and we are to submit to the authorities(Romans 13) meaning if a christian is driving a car and they break the law they still get a ticket in this life. You need to adjust your speed and get in alignment with the law --- REPENTING This is the same for the word of God- When you find something in the word of God you are no not in alignment with you need to REPENT and get in aligment with it. I fail to see how thats Legalism-- I believe its called OBEDIENCE: 1 John 2:3-6 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Blessings to you Brother, I wish you nothing but peace and Joy in Messiah, Fruit of the Vine
Shall we bathe in sin? NO! We are to live as we are positionally, seated in heavenly places. Do good, hate sin. All for it! Yet, don't put these desires given by our spiritual rebirth by the way ahead of God Himself and the grace He freely has offered. You cannot forfeit your salvation. You are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption regardless of your evil sins. 1 little sin disqualified you from eternity with God. His Son has erased your sins and made you Holy, pleasing to God.
Jesus, Paul, John, James all have the same message about Grace. There is no contradiction in the word. All of them are saying live in Grace so you will not sin and if you sin ask God to forgive you. Don't let sin rule over you. They are say don't let sin rule your live. Our goal is not to sin and to do that is to live in the Grace God has given.
God will never choose anyone to His service if they have not conquered sin,so who are these sinners who say that they are fully saved while serving sin, you can't become more hipocritical then that and I would never take direction from anyone who lives like that nor let them have any position of authority in the church body. This is the apostasy.
When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for all our sins, past, present and future. We now have no condemnation because of what He did. When we are born again we become sons of God. All our righteousness are not ours, but Christ righteousness. We are the righteousness of God through Jesus finished work, all our righteousness are as filthy rags according to Isaiah. We are called to be holy. We are to walk in the spirit as sons of God. The reality is that we fall into sin again. The key is to get up and not stay down and wallow in the mud like the pigs. Daily we die, daily we renewed our minds, daily we follow Jesus. We are to put on the whole armor of God so we can be victorious. If we are not victorious, if we are not walking in the spirit, if we are not living a holy life, then may be we were never born again in the first place. Jesus said, they shall know you by the way you love each other. Paul said, they shall know you by the fruit you exhibit. If I keep exhibiting carnal fruits, may be I was never regenerated in the first place. Our holy lives are because we love the Lord, not because I have to do or else. Same concept when two people get married. Neither bring their "10 commandments" to the altar. No, after the wedding, we do things for each other because we love each other, not because we have to do. Thats grace, God loves us regardless of our performances.
I don't agree. Whenever work is added to the salvation, no matter it's added before, or after. Or it's added for whatever reason, grace is no longer grace. We are saved by faith alone, not by faith + work.
Jesus said we need to obey him to be saved. James says faith without works cannot save. Paul says if we go on sinning willfully there remains no more a sacrifice for sins. John says he that hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life. I'm starting to think faith alone, at least not faith alone as it's commonly understood is not biblical.
That's heretical, not hermeneutical. Hermeneutics says that you take ALL of what's said on a given subject, not just the parts you like. When one takes the stance that faith without works is dead, all scriptures on this subject harmonize well. When one takes the stance that you can live like hell and still make heaven he has to ignore completely most of the Bible. There's more written in scripture concerning hell than there is of heaven. And for good reason: nobody needs to be warned to avoid heaven. People who think you can believe whatever you want so long as you believe something do NOT know the Bible. And if they don't even know the book, they sure don't know the Author. There's no debate on this subject at all to anyone who KNOWS the Bible OR its Author. If you love Him, you'll live to please Him, it's as simple as that. By even arguing to get out of it, you show you DON'T love Him, only yourself and your own lusts. W.C. Fields was once asked why he was carrying a Bible. He answered, "Looking for loopholes." If you love and are committed to Someone, you don't look for loopholes, you don't look for outs. In fact, its offensive to your spirit to see people who do. And if it offends His true people, it offends Him even more.
I like to consider the definition of : Unmerited favor, with reflection. The rub from Dr. Brown is obvious to me. He is saying a believer has to reflect upon Grace and allow it to manifest as progressive sanctification, or result in falling away from faith if grace is presumed, resulting in unrepentance and a hardening of heart.
in the end it is all about one thing: if we say we love God, then we obey is His Word, empowered by His Grace,enabeling us to obey Him. We are called to fulfill the first commandment, to love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. 1 John 5:3 " In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," Grace is God's power to and in us to become what we are called to be. 1 Cor.15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." We can choose not to obey His commandments, declarings thus that we do not keep the first of all commandments and by disobedience destroying His plans for our lives, not living according to His Word and of course there always consequences of disobedience. What we sow we will reap, good or bad. God is not mocked
the WORK of God is to BELIEVE on Him whom he sent. the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they DO NOT BELIEVE the old law is was not made so that we would obey it, but to reveal to us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour. Christ was provided on the cross so that those who believe on Him will be made perfect in HIS works rather than the deeds of our flesh. so by believing on Christ as our complete body of good works, our righteousness is made perfect by our faith in HIS works, because faith without works is dead. so the question is, what are your works? you will either be judged by your own works or by the works which God provided on the cross. our sanctification is not a gradual process where we sin less and less in our flesh until we are without sin, but sanctification is having our spirit set apart from our works UNTO Christ's works, which is imputed to us through our faith by God's grace.
This verse actually was only misunderstood first in Christian history, by the mind science adherents, namely, EW Kenyon and unfortunately K. Haigen. The blindness of a lie is remarkable. First we have testimony in Acts, after Peter preaches, the Holy Spirit convicts the people of sin, and urges them to repent. But this verse is actually a verse against Hyper Grace. The Greek word can be transalted sins(hermatia). Cant you actually see that it is the opposite of Kenyons interpretation, ie. not just one sin of unbelief, but that he convicts the world of sin actually sin. Why does and how does he have the right to convict the world of sin. Because they do not believe on Jesus. Not that unbelief is the only thing the Holy Spirit convicts of, but that all sin once convicted of has one answer in Jesus. Actually you cant believe in Jesus the righteous for his righteousness and not know you are a sinner. That just doesn't make sense. You have the eastern symbol of yin and yang. Cant you see then that to receive the righteousness of God, one would have to be convinced of their unrighteousness. You cant have one without the other. ....
"the old law is was not made so that we would obey it" Prov 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law(Torah). Deut 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! Prov 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. Prov 7:1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee. 2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. 3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart Everyone who is apart of the commonwealth of Israel is commanded to repent(turn) from sin and obey the Torah. I agree with you that the law was made "to reveal to us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour" but that is not the only reason it was made. The purpose of the law is 3-fold: 1. To define what sin is. 1John 3:4 2. To pronounce blessings on those who obey. Deut 11:27 3. To pronounce curses on those who disobey. Deut 11:28 1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Deut 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: :20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Forget about salvation for a while. It's a done deal. Through grace by faith. I think this debate can be settled by one question: are there different statuses (ranks) for human in heaven ? If yes, what makes someone earn or deserve higher status ?
Repentance is NOT works....Repentance and Faith are Cohesive-Twins. When a person REPENTS He or She is doing so "In Faith" it is not works. Works are exterior actions while True REPENTANCE involves an interior change of the Heart towards exterior actions. Thank You *****
crimsun tears Yes Once Saved Always Saved is a lie from the pit of Hell. Just considering that Jesus himself told us that if we do not forgive our father in heaven will not forgive us, or the lukewarm church. These are clearly conditional.
crimsun tears repentance is only a change of ways, a change of mind, not a change of the heart. Thats why Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:3, "you must be born again". when you are born again, you are a completely new person(2Cor. 5:17). If you just repent, you are still son of adam(ICor. 15:49). When you are born again, you are the son of God, you have the shield of the Holy Spirit and nothing can take that away from you(Romans 8:14-17, 38)!
The issue is that thier are two types of believers. One is motivated by fear and the other Grace .Some teachings are more subtle than others. Catholicism being the high extreme . Universalism being the other end .
You were both equivocating on the terms holiness, righteousness during your discussion.Daniel most of the time was speaking about the "imputed righteousness of Christ"(Rom 4:6) while Michael was speaking mostly about "our own practical righteousness" that we practice which is of the law(Php 3:8-9). These 2 righteousness are taught in the bible but are distinct from one another. If one holds strictly to the KJ,ASV, or Geneva translation of 1 JN 3:9 "doth not commit sin" then you would have to come to an imputed righteousness understanding. If one reads the "makes a practice of sinning" translation then it is speaking of course of our own righteousness. I believe John Gill has the correct understanding of this phrase and meaning: DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN: does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason: for his seed remaineth in him; not the word of God, or the Gospel, though that is a seed which is sown by the ministers of it, and blessed by God, and by which he regenerates his people; and which having a place in their hearts, becomes the ingrafted word, and there abides, nor can it be rooted out; where it powerfully teaches to avoid sin, is an antidote against it, and a preservative from it: nor the Holy Spirit of God, though he is the author of the new birth, and the principle of all grace; and where he once is, he always abides; and through the power of his grace believers prevail against sin, and mortify the deeds of the body, and live: but rather the grace of the Spirit, the internal principle of grace in the soul, the new nature, or new man formed in the soul, is meant; which seminally contains all grace in it, and which, like seed, springs up and gradually increases, and always abides; and is pure and incorruptible, and neither sins itself, nor encourages sin, but opposes, checks, and prevents it:
The problem with the hypergrace crowd is they don't realize that 1 grace is not irresistible, before or after conversion, they once saved always saved teaches irresistible grace post salvation, 2 salvation is not simply salvation from hell, but salvation from sin itself, not just the consequences of sin. God intendeds to make us perfect holy creatures, wether that happens in this life or the next, once we are fully saved in heaven we will be creatures without taint of sin.
Hyper grace theology just wants to take only Paul’s epistles and apply them as they want bcuz they disregard where Paul urges repentance from sins committed after being saved!
John 14:23-24 (KJV) 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:15-16 (KJV) 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Did anyone expect Paul to preach about the joys of sinning? Of course he preaches to walk by the spirit in holiness. Yet if we fail, we aren't cursed as under the Old Covenant!
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The reason why someone would walk blamelessly is because God saw no sin in him because of his faith again it's credited righteousness
+Dalton Pyron yes And no yes I am a new creation, I am a saint not a sinner and that verse is to show us we can't make it on our own but the law is the opposite of living by the spirit read Galatians 5 you start with the spirit and finish by the spirit if you continue by the law Paul says you have fallen from grace... Though I do not think your salvation is in question here when we say fallen from grace. The thing is law makes sin bigger and you gotta understand Jesus is the biggest
+Dalton Pyron what in trying to say is when you live by the spirit it will bring more obedience than living under the law, remember the law is written in our hearts now not on stone
So you refuse to correct yourself that chapter is clear, im not saying your not saved I don't doubt your salvation but your not living the way a Christian should according to Paul, you do not understand the context of the passages your giving, hope you read it again
Great debate! I would also like to add a commentary on 1 John 3:5-9. From "Things Hard To Be Understood" by David W. Cloud: Things Hard to be Understood 1 John. 3:5-9 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” - 1 John 3:5-9 In what sense does the believer “sin not”? This cannot mean that the believer is incapable of sinning or that he has sinless perfection. John already refuted that idea. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). Sin continues to be present in the believer’s life, and it is dealt with by confession and the advocacy of Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9; 2:1-2). What, then, does 1 John 3:5-9 teach? In this passage, John is refuting the error that claims it does not matter how a Christian lives since he is saved by grace. Paul referred to this same error in Ro 6:1-2. Both Paul and John teach us that true salvation is evidenced by righteous living. Christ is the believer’s life and righteousness (1 John 3:5; compare 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21). Christ lives in the genuine believer; “his seed remaineth in him”; he is born again by the Spirit of God. If a person claims to be saved but continues to be dominated by sin and does not strive to serve Christ in righteousness and holiness---“doeth not righteousness”---that person is deceived. The verbs here are in a continuous sense, referring not merely to acts of sin but to a pattern of life.
+Linda Robey Yep. The word 'prasso' is translated merely 'do' here and in Galatians 5 where it says 'they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God'. Prasso means to do habitually or continuously: as in a LIFESTYLE of sin. No Christian sins willfully. But while we are made perfect in love, we are not made perfect in knowledge. Thus we can have mishaps: "If any man be taken in a fault, you which are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness considering also yourselves lest ye be tempted". The word 'overtaken' in the KJV here actually means 'to have a mishap publicly'. There is no excuse for a lifestyle of sin in this--and even less in view of such a great promise as this: "It is God Who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". If GOD does a thing--it's getting DONE. Nice post--thanks for sharing. Hope you don't mind my two cents here. ;-)
The best response yet - thank you, this is understanding and properly and rightly dividing the Word of truth. We ARE saved by grace and we CANNOT work for our salvation, but based on the marvelous scriptures you posted above, if we indeed have Jesus living in us we are not going to live a life of continued sin - period, end of story.
Hello Dr. Brown firstly I must apologise for accusing you of not debating grace teachers fairly on another post I hadn't seen this post obviously I hadn't researched it enough before my comments
A kid jumps on the bosom of his long-awaited Dad, and starts to cry after seeing the shadow behind his Dad. And the Daddy ask the child why he was crying,and the child replies....'' GET RID OF YOUR SHADOW''!!! Daddy says to child,'as long as the LIGHT of my Father shines on me,my shadow shall always be part of me;You embrace me,you embrace my shadow indirectly instead of directly as in the past.' Staying on the 'Narrow path' means living Lawfully according to the Torah/shadow ( Isaiah 35:8, Matthew 7) , but unfortunately...Man can't stay on track without the ONE/Messiah Revealed ( Jesus) that keeps you on it (1 Corinthians 1:8 Colossians 1:16 ) .
If I'm wrong, I apologize to you and mainly to God. I am in no way trying to teach false gospel or false doctrines. I believe I am a babe in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit and I will inherit the Kingdom by the grace of God by the blood of Jesus. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. My words are certainly not Scripture. I'm growing in the knowledge of God. I pray the Holy Spirit guides to me to all truth, Jesus. God bless you all! Believe in Jesus- the will of the Father.
Another issue with the idea about ' practicing sin ' as if there is different degrees with no distinction and there is never a clarification from certain Christian s ( fruit inspectors) as to the degree or extent . Adam sinned just once ? We have to be careful with this . This creates ladder life Christian's, heart hardened fruit inspectors. Sin is bad , let's not sin . Simple . Grace is a better motivator than morbid fruit inspecting and ' ladder life ' and thinking your making yourself clean when were already cleansed.
The Grace message is simple. God has given us Grace all we need to do is walk in it. When we don't walk in Grace, we sin and if we continue in sin it leads to death.
If you have a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus, don't works come naturally? You naturally strive to do everything he commanded, and you naturally feel the need to repent of your sins. Do you fail? Of course. But you're still trying. Even though the fruit is produced by the Holy Spirit, you're still trying because that's what you do with a relationship - you try. Seems so simple and yet it manages to get so complicated. x.x
+SuperKlizzard Exactly. The key words in your post are: "If you have a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus". Christ said some would come and claim acquaintance with Him saying how many great things they'd done in His name, but he would say to them "depart: I never knew you." The word translated simply 'knew' there actually means 'to know intimately'. So while He didn't necessarily reject their claim to having MET Him, He said they never got to know Him WELL. Like I met Willie Nelson once--just once, years ago. I could go around telling people I knew Him really well, I could even hold concerts for farmers, claiming to be his associate. Would any of that be true? NOPE. When you're intimate with Jesus, we know works aren't a problem: when you love someone and are with them, you naturally WANT to please them. So when folks HAVE ISSUES with that, what they're actually saying is that they know Him really well, and have held concerts for farmers...or the faith. But really, they're just wannabe groupies who NEED to repent of what they're letting keep them from Him and REALLY GET TO KNOW HIM. ;-)
No, it's not. That's YOUR ASSUMPTION, NOT SCRIPTURE. Holy simply means 'set apart'-set apart for God's purpose. Scripture also makes clear that God looks on the heart and its INTENT, not the outward appearance. If you think about it, going by an outward definition of what holiness is would never work, since that is highly subjective-ten different people would see holiness as ten different things (twenty if they're Jews). We see lots of people who today even harp on the actions of Christ and accuse Him of unholiness, so the opinions of man are obviously NOT the way to go on this issue-as He said Himself. ("You care more for the opinions of man than for the opinions of God".) So we can be walking in perfect righteousness and people will still falsely accuse us of the worst things, as they did Him. As long as we are living up to what we know of scripture's requirements of us once we know Christ, we are living in holiness. Once God has 'purified our hearts by faith' we can walk in perfect love toward Him and toward man. (Love also has a distinct Biblical definition, and is not the highly subjective thing people think it is.) We're made perfect in love: but we are not perfect in knowledge as yet. Look at Peter's words: For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.~2 Peter 1:5-15 Notice the first thing Peter tells us to ADD TO OUR FAITH is GOODNESS (virtue in the KJV). Why command that if we couldn't DO it? Then he says we should add knowledge-knowledge so that we'll know not only what is right but WHY it's right. Then we are to have self-control and perseverance, godliness, mutual affection (philadephia-brotherly love), and to that, love (agape-a sense of moral and social RESPONSIBILITY). Agape is the word Christians are required to walk in, and the one we hear commonly referred to as God's love. While feeling may have a part in it, agape is not based on feelings, but on doing what is RIGHT. By using such a word rather than the other words that might be chosen-philadelphia, phileo, etc.-scripture is clearly showing us true love is found in RIGHTEOUSNESS, not in feelings. The 'love' most people THINK OF as godly love is actually man's love (phileo), one that IS based on feeling. This is the kind of 'love' that sees shows of affection as true while it will turn around two seconds later and stab the object of its 'affection' in the back. It's the darling of the divorce court, the father of friendships falling out and the mother of murder when the object of affection either fails to stir it anymore, angers it, or becomes too much bother. So if it's too much 'bother' to follow Christ into goodness/virtue guess what kind of 'love' you really have for Him? Read John chapter 8. Here we see Jesus say: "If you CONTINUE IN MY WORDS then are you MY DISCIPLES INDEED." This is important because He is speaking here to Jews whom, we are told HAVE believed on Him ALREADY. Yet by the end of this chapter these same 'believers' are taking up stones to stone Him. They couldn't even continue in His words until the end of that chapter. And in the end they demonstrated a murderous spirit toward Christ. This issue is all-important: don't fool yourself. You'll either continue in His words or you'll end up hating Him. I've seen this demonstrated many times through the years. You can't walk with Him in dishonesty. "They that worship Him MUST worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH." Looking again at Peter's words, notice at the bottom he says that he who lacks these things is blind, not seeing 'past the end of his nose' so to speak (afar off) and has forgotten his own salvation from his old sins. He goes on to warn that we make our election-that's our status as one of His elect-sure (indicating it isn't if we're in this state) and says if we do WE SHALL NEVER FALL. It's there in black and white: we don't have to fall. Now why would anyone who loved God want to fall if he didn't have to? He wouldn't. Neither would he be found arguing why he could or should, thereby providing provision for his flesh to do so.
Paying lip service to accepting correction is not the same thing as actually DOING SO. And you are still holding to your precept that YOU know the definition of 'perfection', and that it has to be what you say it is. When did God die and make you king? Are you God that you know so unquestioningly exactly what the definition of perfection is, and are so sure that we cannot be so? I hear you giving your own opinion, but I don't see any scripture from you to back it up. News flash: your opinion and a dime won't buy a cup of coffee. It doesn't matter what you say, or what you think, no matter how right it seems to you, or how hard you insist upon it. What matters is what God's word says. And Jesus said, "Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." You state that Christ commanded us to do something we cannot do. He didn't. Therefore you have to be wrong. And here's a hint: your idea of what something has to be isn't necessarily what it IS. Perfection is what GOD says it is, not what you THINK it is. And your definition isn't Biblical, friend: it's CULTURAL. Scripture defines perfection before God as being complete in Him, walking in faith and love and obedience to Him. It says nowhere that the opinions of men on what's perfect and what's not matter one bit. This includes me and you. Quit believing everything you've been told and start studying the Bible for yourself. Start by bringing EVERY thought captive to the obedience of Christ-even the ones that seem to be unquestionably GOOD thoughts to you. You'll find (as I did once I started many years ago) that 'good' often isn't very good at all, and that 'evil' often isn't evil, only ignorance. This is where the Spirit comes in, dividing soul from spirit and our own ideas from His eternal truth. Ask the Lord to reveal this to you.
No, JESUS saves: the cross was a pagan symbol long before Jesus died on it, and it never saved anyone. He was crucified ON it BECAUSE it was a pagan symbol of Rome. And like I just said to someone else here, every time you gnostics get your pet false doctrine disproved, you try to mix apples and oranges by pretending the discussion is about salvation. It's not. It's about what you DO with salvation, whether you show respect and gratitude for what you got, or you treat it and your savior like dirt and expect God to be sucker enough to let you get by with that (be not deceived: God is NOT mocked). Quit trying to change the subject and stick to the point. We both know you don't have a leg to stand on scripturally, so quit wasting people's time with red herrings while you find excuses to keep living in sin. Christ already said you can't serve both God and sin. Scripture also talks about damning heresies. Know what those are? As the Bible defines them, they are any opinion, preference or feeling/sentiment you prefer to the word of God. It also makes clear that once you've been told the truth you're held accountable for it-NO excuses. When Christ spoke to the Pharisees about loving the opinions of man more than the opinion of God they weren't a 'special case'. ANYONE who puts his own opinions, preferences or feelings above God's word is included in that. Better make up your mind which master you want: all signs point to His kingdom coming soon.
He has 4 semesters of Greek and doesn't understand the present active tense? I would expect that from most pastors today that take zero Greek and those that have zero higher theological education but he is without excuse.
They don’t consider these epistles of Paul’s were just letters he wrote to leaders of the church’s he helped establish. They have no way of knowing in depth his actual sermons and teachings. He even addressed in his letters keeping all of the 10 commandments except keeping the sabbath holy. He addressed repentance for sins committed AFTER being saved. He urged striving to be living righteously according to the gospel of Jesus Christ-meaning he taught living as Jesus said to live. I guess the most important thing is actually striving to live and grow in your walk with the Lord and allowing yourself to be led and guided by the Holy Spirit--which does convict us of our sins we continue to commit! Hyper grace seems to hijack the gospel of Jesus and I think although meant well is a deception inspired by Satan as it goes against the message of the entire Bible and is based so much on modern (mostly KJV) translations rather than searching the Hebrew and Greek bcuz some meanings have gotten lost in translation!
Don't you think there is a kind of surrender in will while accepting Gods direction? Wouldn't this mean Gods plan not ours? Its not as if I surrender my carnal will and God leads me to sin... Yes, grace, and yes works, (not our own but convicted to love others and God). That is why the yoke is so light.
ok i had enough at the 25;15 min mark.king teaches that your disobedience is covered by christs death and resurrection meaning past present and future no matter what but the bible doesnt teach that.the bible teaches that we can fall away from grace given that the believer can go back into the world 1 john 2;14 and be seen as an unbeliever again and according to scripture remain that way except for the parable of the prodigal son.however not all prodigal son cases happen though, bc jesus and paul made it clear in the parable of the talents,the irresponsible servant,the israelis disobedeince that such cases do happen among believers.daniel king,yankee arnold are fooling themself except in the case of repentance luke 15;7 and yet people like daniel assume that repentance-metanoia consists only of the change of mind problem without the second part turning away from sin which all easy-believism 'stake-holders'leave out,making them 'hate' their lordship salvation counterparts''for practising a 'works gospel' ,-the lordshippers putting themself under ' law again,then why did jeremiah say i will right my laws in their heart ezekial said it too-this is the new covenant.the law in the believers heart john 3;5 this law-the new heart of the holy-spirit can bc 'overcome when wee choose to live disobedient lives- luke 6:46,9;63 romans 8;12-13,13'11, galations 5;20.ephs and 1 john with james talks about works 2;12 eph 2;10,james 2;14 and holiness-1 peter 1;14,2 peter 1;2-9 are intertwined,u cant have one without thee other otherwise ones works fall not flourish-matt 7;24-26.
Beware the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees and Sadducees, Matt 16:12 As a little leaven, leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9. Michael Brown misunderstands scripture and his error doctrine could potentially lead to legalism. Christ is our only teacher, Matt 23:8, and all we Christians are brethren. God says you have no need that any man, such as Dr Brown, should teach you, as the anointing (Christ in us) teaches us all things 1John 2:27.
Greetings Sola Scriptura: I have not read through all your webpage that you referred me to...I will try...I just started looking at it tonight...I am traveling frequently and rarely have time to use the internet on my computer...I want to share this scripture with you first: 2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. The heart is not transformed before it turns to the Lord, the scripture says "nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." The heart must turn first. Transformation follows as the heart turns.
God gave the Law to show us His Holy standard and in doing so showed humanity's sinful nature. We are not worthy to be heirs to the Kingdom. Our best efforts fall incredibly short. This led to Jesus so we through His blood could be a part of His Holy Kingdom, children of the Most High. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Law is often referred to as a mirror. The mirror cannot cleanse us, but only show the dirt. The mirror is shattered to those of faith. Sins are no longer remembered by God, yet we all consume ourselves with our sins. We are too vain. We need to look to and consume ourselves with the love of God, the Son. The mirror is only there for those who do not yet believe. They need it. They need shame. The world is puffed up in hideous love of self and their sins.
Micheal you ended with a proof text without context . There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. In context , notice verse 9 please .
the problem with hyper grace is a confusion in what happned on the cross. it is true that christ's blood was enough to pay for all sins past, present, and future. however, this doesnt mean that it automatically covers them. think of it like a bank account. you have a debit card that can cover any amount. but if you keep a tab and never use the card, it does no good. repentance is using the debit card to cover your debts. the hyper grace philosophy is that jesus came in and sais unlimited rounds for everybody on me. im sorry I just dont see that in the bible.
Jesus paid for sins once and for all. But the world is not therefore automatically saved. Many for whom Jesus died and paid the price for, will spend eternity in eternal conscious torment. You have completely missed the whole story of application, or receiving of Jesus. As for the believer, the same doctrine applies. We do not get what Jesus gives simply because we think it. That is mind science. We must come to Jesus, as James says as believers. Weep, howl and repent of our sins to apply his blood and forgiveness. His blood is not an ooze, just automatically applied because of thought or doctrine. His finished work must be received. And to receive it we would of neccesity have to know we have missed the mark. Do these people ignore the fact that it is God who created the conscience of man.
Grant Holland weeping and howling ? Really - maybe we should self flagellate like they do at Easter in some countries - will that seal the deal ? We could write our signature in our own blood as if His blood wasn’t enough. Ridiculousness from Pharisees and those who blend law and grace.
I personally believe salvation by grace-however, I believe we are forgiven for past and present sins at the time of salvation-but I do believe we are to repent & ask God’s forgiveness for any sins committed after we come to Christ. No matter what sins we do commit-we won’t go to hell, but we will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ for how we lived our lives as Christians ..it’s not all about rewards or it’d be called the Reward Seat of Christ-judgement brings consequences & punishment. Hyper grace theology undermines the whole entire Bible, including Jesus’ teachings-who it’s all supposed to be about!! And even Paul’s own teachings about repentance of sins, and who WONT inherit the kingdom of God-bcuz his letters were all to believers. He also taught keeping 9 of the 10 commandments as well! I will never put Paul’s teachings before Christ’s own teachings. I embrace all their teachings. Hyper grace theology seems to have put Paul ahead of and even replaced Jesus. In their theology a person who has been saved previously can go on later to commit murder, pedophelia, rape, steal, etc. and if not ever caught by police here on earth, they will never be held accountable by or punished by God-bcuz those sins aren’t counted by God--that’s insanity and goes against the entire Bible, God, Jesus....there ARE many out there who years after being saved, for whatever reason, started doing bad, even evil things! So what about those like that? They can’t ever explain that🤷🏼♀️ bcuz in reality it does happen and more often than they want to admit.
29:54 So you claim that God is denying reality. Or God is objectively right and nothing we do is a sin even murder. Then is John denying reality when he said I write to you that you sin not, and James when he said you sinners? If we cannot in objective reality, that is in the sight of God sin in anyway why does it say confess your sins one to anyone and if anyman sin we have an advocate with the father.
I see that too. I especially didn't like the end of the show where he gave King 10 seconds to respond and he tried to let people know where to buy his book, and then Brown cut him off (which of course he had to because he ran out of time), to just say "if you want to know more, I wrote a book on it"! Are you kidding me? This is your radio show, you have a guest on who wrote a book on it, too. You should be giving out his book name, not your own - or at the least say "we wrote books on it" and give out both book titles. Not to mention the pride that comes with the mentality of "we can keep the law". Of course you can't - that was the purpose of the law! It was to bring you to Jesus and the gospel of grace.
uhm get help...he clearly told of the other book...but the other book is utter deception...maybe it's you that's got the pride..the grace message given by this guy and guys like Joseph Prince is heresy
Hebrews 12:13-15 (KJV) 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
@ 26:00 There was this one "pastor' who not one of us who believed in a grace alone salvation.. his name was Bob George..I suppose you could call this man a hyper dispensation-ist. Hyperdispensationalism has been around a long time with the teaching of C R Stamm. These hyper dispies wanted to exclude parts of the Bible as having no application or value of the practices taught for that time in history. The 3 epistles of John for example were allegedly not the private mail for the modern church age. Since 1 John was allegedly not written to Pauline gentile believers , they believed that confessing your sins to God as outlined in 1 John 1:9 had no value for today but rather was destructive to our spiritual lives & our fellowship with God. Bob George taught that a bad conscience was because we were hanging on to provisions taught for other dispensations such as 1 John 1:9 which did not work for the Church age but rather we merely should recon ourselves to be dead to sin.. Romans 6:11 was then the answer to the problem not an inactive provision in 1 John. Though that is a Pauline Commandment I did not buy Bob George that 1 John 1:9 was valueless & harnful. The school of thinking our pastor teacher drilled into us was that 1 John 1:9 was ESSENTIAL to maintaining fellowship with God. I John 1:9 was 1 of 10 problem solving provisions of which was the GATEWAY to the other 9. George taught that practicing 1 john 1 9 would create a guilty conscience whereas our pastor teacher taught that it's practice would clean the conscience eventually resulting in a repentance or some positive change.
Can you repent of all your sins? Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: We cannot sin because we, as believers, are no longer under the law. Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Repentance of sins is works. Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. The one who does not work is saved as God justifies the ungodly. Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I don't think Paul ment nothing you do counts as a sin. The hypergrace crowd convinced me that faith alone is unbiblical, they take faith alone to it's logical conclusion and that conclusion is not biblical. John says he that hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Not a murderer can have eternal life abiding in him as long as he believes.
@@christophersnedeker2065 yeah, everyone still sins. It isn't that we don't sin but that our sins are not counted against us. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and the sins that we commit are forgiven. And murder isn't the standard, if we have any sin we are not worthy of eternal life. Remember, even Moses is condemned under the law and didn't make it into the promised land and yet David who was an adulterer and a murderer is with God in heaven. We are all condemned under the law/by our works but if we trust/have faith in the perfect sacrifice of Christ we are forgiven of all our sins, i.e., His sacrifice was good enough to pay for all our sins, every single one, past, present and future. Faith alone just means faith without works but really it isn't without works, it is just without our works, which are filthy rags. The price of our sin has to be payed for and we can never pay it, fortunately, Christ did all the work for us on the cross. He paid our debt in full washing away all our sin by His blood with his perfect sacrifice. Luk 18:13-14 KJV 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Try reading Romans 4, it talks quite a lot about faith alone in Jesus which is the narrow path through which we salvation. Eph 2:8-9 KJV 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
@@empirelight5477 I don't think the common idea of Christ's rightousness being imputed to us is biblical. The only time I know of when the word imputed is in the Bible is when it says Abraham's faith was imputed to him for rightousness. What was imputed to him as righteousness? Abraham's own faith, it says nothing about Christ's rightousness being imputed to Abraham. I think this idea of Christ's rightousness being credited to us makes God into one who "doeth and maketh a lie".
@@empirelight5477 Another thing is that the salvation mentioned in the Bible isn't just salvation from hell, it's salvation from sin itself Matthew 1 21. We are not saved by having our sins ignored but got out. We are not made snow covered dung but made pure snow.
@@christophersnedeker2065 Rom_4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Rom_4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; Rom_4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
caller seems to indicate we must be perfect as the Father in Heaven by our own obedience. Matthew 5:48 Good luck with that!!! sounds like a Muslim to me. keep at it. Don't get angry now.
Dr Brown I think perhaps you haven't really struggled with tge absolute black-and-white language of 1st John. For example, it says no one who hates his brother has eternal life. Does that mean that a Christian cannot, for even 1 second, harbor hatred ever? I don't know what kind of linguistic basis there is for adding the word "practice" or "continue" before "sin", but isn't it possible there's a positional sense in which the new man cannot sin? Whilst there's a simultaneous reality that we can and do sin? Is it possible that John had a specific sin in mind that's only possible for unbelievers? I just think perhaps John is writing things we don't fully understand.
Excellent discussion. The Christian walk is like a marathon not a sprint; the harder you try to obey, the more difficult it gets because you end up trying to be “good” in the flesh. It takes time to learn to walk after the spirit in order not to give into the lust of the flesh. Unfortunately many folks wants to project “holiness” before the spiritual growth takes place creating an artificial appearance of righteousness. That’s how judgmental self-righteous Christians are born. We need a serious personal relationship with Jesus and a whole lot of hyper grace to bring balance and love back into body of Christ.
There is a dispensational/contextual distinction between Paul/the body of Christ and Israel. *2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. *1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Eph_4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Jesus died for our sin so that through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we no longer have to be slaves to sin, Jesus's love within us has no sin because against love there is no law, so a heart perfected in the love of Jesus can no longer sin, but we do make mistakes and when I do I still ask God to forgive me. Never does grace become a lisence to sin under another agreement, all old testament sin are still sin in the new and if you continue in sin you will be cut off from your hardening of your heart.
Here in one sentence is the essence of "hyper grace": "To deny Christ’s all sufficient work on the cross, that the death & resurrection was not sufficient to save you is the most blasphemous statement a person can make in this age of grace." "Hyper grace" says Jesus did it all for you on the cross... there's nothing you can add to what He did on the cross... there's nothing you need to do but believe He did it all for you on the cross... repenting from sin is dismissed as our "works": nice, but not required. Contrast that to what Jesus said: "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5). So what do hyper grace people say in response? They say repent has nothing to do with sin... repent means change your mind about not believing Jesus did it all for you on the cross! How clever of them! Voila! Your sins are forgiven even if you don't repent of them! Could it get any easier than that? Such a conclusion is not Biblical. *Sins are not forgiven unless they are repented of!* That's the Biblical principle Jesus expounded in Luke 17:3,4: "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and *_if_* he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." Is it true that "Jesus did it all for you on the cross"? Did Jesus finish His work on the cross? No way! Jesus' work is _not_ finished! Quoting His own words, *Jesus is at work right now:* "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Jesus, in Revelation 3:19). Jesus' work continues, even now, as He leads us through _sanctification_ or regeneration. If we'll abide in Him (John 15:1-7), He will lead us and help us to obey, repent and overcome. It is ongoing, active sanctification which frees us from slavery to sin and brings us to His righteousness, so that we may inherit the kingdom of God. Through sanctification we are made a "new man... created in righteousness and true holiness" as Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:22-24: "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Only through abiding in Him, obeying, repenting and overcoming can we put unrighteousness out of our lives and be prepared - made ready - to inherit the kingdom of God: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9,10). We need to repent and put unrighteousness out of our lives. With His spirit leading and helping us during sanctification, we can put sin out of our lives, but *we must continually choose to abide in Him!* We are gradually re-made into the "new man," modeled after Jesus at every level: deeds, words and thoughts. Many will tell you "God wants us to live holy lives." That's a bit misleading. God isn't looking for actors: He's creating changed men and women, who do good works automatically, out of love for God and neighbor. "Hyper grace" is easy to believe, and easily deceives. If it were "all done on the cross" there would be no need for sanctification... no need to abide in Him... no need to put unrighteousness out of our lives... no need to walk "the narrow way... that leads to life" (Matt 7:14)... no need to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)... no need to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10)... When you think about verses like those, it's obvious that "just believe and you're saved" doesn't even pass the sniff test! We must put off unrighteousness in order to be able to inherit the kingdom (1 Cor 6:10). We must abide in Him in order to put off unrighteousness. We have free will: we can, by our choice or neglect, fail to abide in Him. What happens then? "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6). Did Jesus say 'once a branch, always a branch'??? =============== *Justification by Grace, Sanctification by Grace, Salvation by Grace* Justification is about being made right with God, or reconciled with God, in spite of the sins of our past. We have all sinned, and earned the penalty or "wages" of sin: "the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23). However - _by the grace of God_ - we can be spared from the hopelessness of our death penalty. Here, in Jesus' own words, is why He came: "And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:27-28). So, what did Jesus ransom us from? A prophecy in Hosea 13:14 explains: "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Jesus' death on our behalf made available a ransom, a payment of the death penalty we have each earned for our own sins. That payment is available for us - _by God's grace_ - *if* we'll repent - turn from sin - *turn from sin that earned us the death penalty in the first place.* Jesus did not die to make it okay for us to continue in sin! If you really believe in Jesus, and believe what Jesus says, you can choose to obey and do what He says to do: repent and turn your life around. In that case you will be justified or reconciled to God, no longer _hopelessly_ bound to die for your sins. But you're still just as much a sinner by nature as you were before. How does that get fixed? God - _by grace_ - gives His spirit "to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32). With His spirit we enter sanctification. Through sanctification we "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"... without which we cannot "inherit the kingdom of God" (Ephesians 4:24, 1 Corinthians 6:10). During sanctification we have the *hope* of salvation, as Paul wrote: "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:8,9; also Acts 15:11; Romans 5:9; 1 Peter 1:13). *Why* would he say we "hope... to obtain salvation" and "shall be" saved? I believe *Paul (and Peter) understood something that most professing Christians today do not understand: salvation happens when we actually receive immortal, spirit bodies at our resurrection at Jesus' return.* That's when we actually receive - _by grace_ - the gift of eternal life from God, as Paul explained in 1 Cor 15:50-54. That's when "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54). That's when we are *saved* from death, by receiving eternal life: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). That's when we are saved from perishing, by actually receiving eternal life (John 3:16). 1 Peter 1:13 nicely ties together the *hope* of salvation, and _grace_ - the gift of eternal life - and the revelation or return of Jesus: "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and *hope to the end* for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." whatgodwants.info
The Bible says ..thanks for your comments. I think your viewing Hyper Grace vs Legalism...like this phrase..." Be Holy...NOT Do Holy"..Hyper Grace says your a New Creation..your old self died...Christ cleaned house & moved in and took residence in you & me!! We have new hearts..with new desires!!...Its not about trying..its about trusting...big difference in motivation for why we do what we do. Blessings 😊
@@maxboucher86 Jesus also said he's coming back, he said the work of the cross was finished. If Jesus was finished with absolutely everything he ever planned to do how shall he wipe away every tear.
You can keep the law physically, but if you think a sin you have done it. So Jesus wants us to surrender our carnal demands such that we are heart and mind driven by the engine of the Holy Spirit. Still, I fail. I am human, but I am convicted in poor choices and repent of that action in faith that my judge says sin no more. But I will, hopefully less. As I increase my ability to love I should sin (violate the commandments) less.
+James Barker That's a common misunderstanding--that to think a sin is to do it. It's based on Christ's words that if a man look on a woman to lust he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. But if you look at Christ's actual words here, He says: he that looks on a woman TO lust--not WITH lust (I'll let you check it out so you'll know I'm not making it up LOL). The Greek is even more clear, but the KJV phrase 'TO lust' also shows it has to do with having the INTENT to lust, not just a fleeting thought. The old saying about a bird flying over your head being one thing, but not having to let it nest in your hair is pretty apt. The thought flies up--just tell it to fly by. ;-)
Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Hyper gracers and easy believers often cut the passage off at verse 23 and say "see they were Lordship salvationists trying to get into heaven by their good works, the will of the father is just to believe in Jesus" but Jesus adds a "therefore" 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. As you can see the passage actually supports what is often called Lordship salvation, saying that those who say lord lord may work miracles for him, but they don't do what he tells them.
Daniel King presents a correct interpretation of 1 John 3:6. Romans 3:23 on the other hand DOES have a continual interpretation. All have sinned and CONTINUALLY fall short of the glory of God. All does not mean only unbelievers but all means all without exception. The Bible is absolute not relative. The seed does not sin. Jesus in the believer does not sin. God the father in Jesus Christ in the believer does not sin. The word of God is without sin. Does then the believer not sin? No. The seed is either active or passive. When active it causes the believer to not sin. When passive it does nothing & the flesh sins. The believer is dead to the flesh and the flesh dead to the believer. When I sin it is no longer I that sin but the sin that indwells me. Quenching the Spirit puts the flesh in control but the flesh is not the real me any more. If the verse is interpreted that which is born of God does not PRACTICE sin then does it sin periodically 1 John 1:10? No. Then does it ERADICATE sin? 1 John 1:8 NO It either is inactive or it is not sinning. This does not mean that quenching the Spirit is not a sin. It certainly is. It is not the seed that quenches the Spirit though rather the seed becomes inactive. The base of salvation remains at all times in spite of the condition of the believer. Salvation is not a license to sin but a foundation for righteousness. Neither is 1 John 1:9 a license to sin but a license to fellowship & restoration with the Father regardless of how far we have sinned or fallen short. Sinless perfection would never lose the filling of the Spirit but would always walk like Jesus walked. Who can say that they do? That it must produce an improvement in the life of the believer? No in fact the Corinthian church had sin in it that shocked the Gentiles. There is a paradox in the Christian life. All sin even the worst is paid for. No sin is justifiable or defend able. That is simple grace not even hyper grace. Hyper grace describes an abnormal mal adjusted Christian. One that continues in sin in order that grace will win the race is an abnormal state for a believer but in spite of that grace does win. James describes something else called GREATER GRACE. James 4:6 This is the kind of grace that those with humility have access to. It is far better than Romans 5:20 grace for God cannot commend 5:20 nut he does commend 4:6 When Michael @36:09 came on the phone I was disappointed in Dr. Browns response which showed how little discernment he really has. This legalist who was either out of the SDA or Hebrew Roots movement who was claiming we should keep the law of Moses, Dr Brown did not even notice where the dude was coming from. Even Arminians in denominations like the C&MA preach against salvation by law & know when a legalist is in their midst.
Further, the very title of King's book is deceptive and frames the debate wrongly. As if holiness teaching is competing with grace. If for NO OTHER REASON I know this hyper-grace message is false is because its proponents are deceptive, The same Paul who wrote of God's grace said PURSUE HOLINESS, WITHOUT WHICH NO MAN WILL SEE THE LORD-Heb 12. This explodes all his double-talk
I agree. We should pursue holiness. But, the only way to be holy is through Jesus. So really, we should pursue Jesus. Our own righteousness is as fifthly rags. We must reply upon Jesus' righteousness. The more we know Jesus, the less we will sin.
Daniel King "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world." [Titus 2:11-12] "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain." [2 Corinthians 6:1] "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man will see the Lord; looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." [Hebrews 12:14] The foundation of the Christian life is not grace. The foundation of the Christian life is Christ. "No other foundation can any man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Corinthians 3:11] Jesus taught that whoever hears His words and does them is wise, and whoever hears His words and does not do them is a fool. [Matthew 7:24-27] If a man believes he is saved by grace, yet is living in an adulterous marriage [Matthew 5:31-32] he is deceived. "If a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery. And if a woman divorces her husband and be married to another she commits adultery." [Mark 10:11-12] True grace will lead a man or woman to leave adultery the same way it will lead homosexuals and fornicators to separate. If a man believes he is saved by grace and would use violence to protect himself, his family, his possessions, or his country, he is deceived. Jesus taught, "Resist not evil...love your enemies...do good to those who hate you, and bless those that persecute [pursue you with violence]." [Matthew 5:38-48] True grace will lead men to turn the other cheek, to forgive, to return evil with good, to leave the military, to pray for those who hate them. If a man believes he is saved by grace and is laying up treasures on earth he is deceived. [Luke 12:16-21] True grace leads a man to deny himself, to be rich towards God, and to love his neighbor as himself. Many believe Jesus died for their sins, few believe Jesus. Many believe One died in their place, but they do not believe the One Who died. The true grace of God will lead a man to deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Jesus. It teaches men to "Enter in at the straight gate: For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." [Matthew 7:13-14] Some choose their road and accepts its destination, others choose their destination and accept the road. If the road your on leads you to divorce, another marriage, war, lawsuits, immodest clothing, pursuing wealth, self indulgence, gluttony, swearing oaths, or any other heathen practice, your destination is the burning lake and no amount of grace will save you from that end. False grace will justify those who do these things, and give them a false peace. True grace will teach men to forsake these things and to follow Jesus. The only way to avoid the condemnation of eternal fire is to get off that road and follow Jesus. You said, "The more we know Jesus, the less we will sin." Sin is a choice, not a result from a lack of special knowledge. The way knowing Jesus will cause us to sin less is obeying the words He has spoken, for He said they will judge us on the last day [John 12:48]. You said, "Our own righteousness is as filthy rags." God never said that about His saints. He called His saints righteous, not because they knew what was right, but because they did what was right. All throughout the Old and New Testaments God calls men holy, perfect, righteous, good, honest, etc. The Prophet Isaiah was interceding for a debauched nation who forsook God and worshiped demons. However, though these men did what was right, and were called by God good, honest, faithful, and perfect, they did not trust in themselves, but rather felt undone in the presence of the Lord.
1 john 3 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED / IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS / GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION. written by Mark Rahe43920 2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV 3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. I will declare the truth that when we "Believe the Gospel" we are Saved Forever. The "Gospel" or Good News" of our "Salvation" is "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." Now let me back that up with scripture.. .> THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION > 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV > 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the "Gospel" which I preached unto you, which also ye have "RECEIVED" , and wherein ye "STAND" ; 2 By which also ye are "SAVED" , IF ye KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also "RECEIVED" , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: > When we Receive the "Gospel" and "Believed it" we are "Sealed" with the "Promised Holy Spirit". Ephesians 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye "HEARD the Word of Truth", the "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION": in whom also after that ye "BELIEVED" , ye were "SEALED" with that "Holy Spirit of Promise". How long are we sealed with the Holy Spirit? Ephesians 4:30 KJV 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "SEALED" unto the "DAY OF REDEMPTION". > > We are Saved the same way Abraham was also Saved. > By FAITH / BELIEVING. Romans 4:3 KJV 3 For what saith the scripture ? Abraham "Believed" God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. When we "Believe the Gospel", we receive "IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS" to our account. Scriptural proof... > Speaking of Abraham and all who simply "Believe" in the "Gospel of our Salvation"> Romans 4:17-25 KJV 17 (As it is written , I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed , even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were . 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken , So shall thy seed be . 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead , when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the "Promise of God" through "UNBELIEF"; but was strong in "FAITH", giving glory to God; 21 And being FULLY PERSUADED that, what He had Promised , He was able also to perform . 22 And THEREFORE it was "IMPUTED" to him for "RIGHTEOUSNESS". 23 Now it was NOT WRITTEN FOR HIS SAKE ALONE, that it was "IMPUTED" to him; 24 But for US also, to whom it shall be "IMPUTED" , IF WE BELIEVE ON HIM that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. > Conclusion; The moment we Hear and Believe and Receive Personally the "Gospel of our Salvation" we are "Sealed with the Holy Spirit" and "IMPUTED" the Righteousness of God unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION. That means " ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" Therefore after we Receive our Salvation, Imputed unto us for Believing the Gospel, recognizing our sinner-ship before God and placing our Faith in Christs, Death for our Sins, and that he was buried and Rose again three days later for our JUSTIFICATION we are "IMPUTED" with "His Righteousness" thus we DO have a licence to sin in Human terms but NOT PERMISSION to sin. That is why Paul says in Romans 6:1-2 KJV 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid . How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ? Colossians 2:13-14 King James Version (KJV) 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses ( Past, Present, and Future sin's ); 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Romans 5:13 King James Version (KJV) 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US. 9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have NOW received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the GIFT: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which RECEIVE abundance of GRACE and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might GRACE reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
+Mark .Rahe43920 Isnt the truth so simple its amazing, The false gospels seem so complicated your forgiven but not forgiven in that way , your sanctified but not sanctified .... What!?!?
+Mark .Rahe43920 Isnt the truth so simple its amazing, The false gospels seem so complicated your forgiven but not forgiven in that way , your sanctified but not sanctified .... What!?!?
I too and recently have felt utterly wicked through my actions, saying I truly deserve the Lake of Fire. Wait, I am putting myself, my own obedience to the Law written on my heart over Jesus and His perfect obedience to the Law of the Old Covenant. Wow, that is wrong! I feel we sometimes overlook exactly what God has done for us. We have the Holy Spirit to help us to live righteously. Let us never forget and let the Holy Spirit remind us, we are indeed righteous, fully justified in Christ. The fine, punishment has already been dealt with. First, realize your position with God. He sees you as He sees His Son. Realize that when you are trying to walk in the Spirit. If the flesh wins out from time to time, chill, you are still righteous.
Is God a party to falsehood? How can he see you as righteous if you are in fact not rightous? I think the Bible is clear that you need to do more then just acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God died and rose again to be saved, you need to obey the words of Jesus and forgive your enemies.
a person, living soul, is body and spirit. We were dead in our sins due to our dead spirit, born of Adam. We have a new spirit of Christ. This part of us cannot sin!!!!!!!! It has no sin nature. It is born of God. God does not sin. only the flesh can sin. C'mon. And this flesh will rot and we will be given a glorified body to match our new spirit, being utterly incapable of sin, zero sin nature, fully reborn of God
That's classic gnostic teaching-that nothing the body does can defile the flesh. Scripture says otherwise, saying that he who commits fornication sins AGAINST his own body-thereby showing it is HE, not his body, doing the sinning. John's little epistles were actually written against this teaching. So adamant was he against it that he refused to be found in the same company with those who taught it according to Christian tradition. It also contradicts Christ Who taught that out of the HEART-not the BODY-flow all manner of evil. I'd suggest you look to your heart; it has deceived you.
Jesus may be speaking of wicked desires coming from the heart/ spirit...prior to being reborn. Matthew 15:18-19 Maybe you support GotQuestions.org Paul says "having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?" Galatians 3:3 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:24 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:16-17 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" John 1:3:9 "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:4-6 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God 1 Corinthians 15:50 This spirit will be placed into a glorified, spiritual body on the last day. God brings the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him at the Resurrection 1 Thessalonians 4:14 When Christ died, He committed His Spirit to the Father. Luke 23:46 Psalm 31:5 The Bible says the human soul is body and spirit. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7 Hebrews 12:9 The body returns to the Earth (under Sin- all of creation groans) and the spirit returns to the One who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 James 2:26 God has given me new desires. I strive to walk by the spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh, of this fallen world. I still fall short. I still sin, yet God remembers them no more. My identity has changed. I am now a child of God. We are judged by what we do in this body (this life), good or bad. Yet, having died and resurrected spiritually into Christ, I am in Him and He is in me. I am seated in heavenly places. My salvation is by grace through faith in Him, His finished work. Anything not of faith is sin. I have faith in Jesus and the promise. I may not have perfect theology. I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture. I hope I am wrong. Yet I believe in the simple Gospel message of grace, God's unmerited mercy on those who do the Father's will, believe in the Son. Let me continue to grow and be guided by the power of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:1-10 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103:8-12 Psalm 136 Don't trust in my words...or any for that matter. Read God's Word with the power of the Holy Spirit and trust in the Word made flesh. Call on Him for mercy. Jesus is the Bread of Life. He is mighty to save.
what is grace? a free gift of God of which you do not deserve. God gives it through the redemptive work of His Son. To remit sin, blood is required. I am all for trying to walk in the spirit and therefore sinning less. Yet all are sinners. No attempt at perfect obedience will lead you to the Father. His will is you believe in His Son who was perfectly obedient to the Law of the Father. He died to save. True, He has pearls of divine teachings on how to live in this fallen world. Yet, it is not you that saves, but Him. All from Adam on must rely on the blood of Jesus and His mercy. Let God give you new desires when you receive your new heart/ spirit. Relax in the finished work of Jesus. He has overcome death. Death is the result of sin. In Him, no 2nd Death, no matter how wretched you think you are.
.neither are correct...see Angels on Assignment...Christ's blood covers us who trust in the blood of Jesus and walk in willingness, but idolatry and rebellion are not covered.. one needs repent and return under the atonement. Once one is covered God remembers sin no more. This is the clear teaching of Numbers 23-24 and affirmed in 1 Corinthians 10.
There are over 600 commands under Moses, given to fallen beings to show their fallen state. Under grace we have over 1000 commands given to Christians who walk by the Spirit in the new Testament. Of coarse we do them through and because of the one command of love, and as we walk in the Spirit. There is one command for you, to walk in the Spirit. Yes we are in a relationship, but it is with our Master, Lord, Commander, leader and God. Are these hyper graces reading the same bible. Please point out ten verses in the bible, new or old, saved or unsaved that don't deal with mans sin on some level. Jesus commands the church to repent. Our sins and the sins of the world have been paid for. But unbelievers must submit to Jesus. And so called followers must admit they sin repent, and ask forgiveness to apply it. The blood it not just a blob of ooze that automatically works because you think it does. Then the power is in your mind not the blood. You must stay under the shower of his blood. One can work in the soap factory and never wash. I think these hyper graces must forget how to wash
Paul taught in Galatians the law 430 years later cannot dissinherit the heirs obeidiance is shut out it's the blood of Christ and our Faith without obeidiance or works the gift of rightousness Romans 5 18 20 sorry docter brown you loose
Wow this hyper grace guy is so far off in his understanding of the scripture another reason I took my family out of what people call the church.He is trying to understand Jesus from his flesh and not from the Holy Spirit, in his way of thinking it completely cancels the power over sin that Jesus died for and gives all who surrender to Him, or else His death was meaningless
Being someone that believes that God persevere His children because God lives in us we can not be lost. We read in Hebrews that "Nothing unclean enters heaven" If Hebrews 6:4-6 for example applies to our salvation then if we ever sin after being saved we’ll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. The New Covenant would be worse than the Old, not better. They were condemned for their actions. According to Matt. 5, we’d be condemned for our thoughts. They couldn’t murder. We couldn’t even be angry. They couldn’t commit adultery. We couldn’t even have a lustful thought. Think of it. No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? Did God become man and die the most painful death ever devised only to put His children into an even more untenable position than before? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? I can’t believe so. God took off external pressure and external restraint and put it all internally in our spirit. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” - 2 TIMOTHY 1:7 We don‟t have a spirit that is moved by fear but a spirit that is moved by his power, his love and his perfect mind. Believe it or not, a born-again Christian doesn‟t want to just go out and sin. They actually want to get rid of sin. Their new nature struggles with sin and doesn‟t like sin. The flesh and mind still like sin but your spirit doesn‟t! Sin is foreign to our spirit. The more we live by our spirit the more we can overcome sin. If we are putting “have-to‟s” on people then we are not teaching them how to walk by the Spirit but by external rules and laws that are not based on faith and which lock up the new nature. this really helped me maybe this was helpful for you too. God Bless.
You very soundly represented and defended the true Gospel, Dr Brown. Praise God.
I don't want to ask anything but say heb 10 vs 1 thru 6 clearly teaches believers that the blood of Christ continuously cleanses believers
HG teachers won't allow the teaching of a believer falling from grace. To me it is kind of a moot point: If a person falls away and rejects God, whether they had the spirit or not, they fall away. So we warn them and call them to repent.
Thanks for posting the full talk and representing the whole counsel of God.
The presumption that one cannot sin in the eyes of God, because of grace, is akin to a parent who refuses to see any fault in their children and allows them to run amok without accountability. God does not give license for us to live in denial of sin or its consequences as a result of grace.
When my four-year-old son makes a mess, he never ceases to be my son. Because of grace, we are God's children. Nothing we do or don't do puts that status in jeopardy.
Daniel King
i live in kenya i recently rededicated my life to christ,am really trying to understand the message of grace,am currently struggling with an addiction and am starting to win but every time i do what my addiction forces me to do i feel guilty and unworthy of God's grace,but God reminds me of his grace and that helps me to fight on. both u and michael brown are really inputing in me GOD BLESS U ALL
Daniel King Daniel, I understand your analogy, but then how do you reconcile that view with Hebrews 10:26-27...?
MichaelDisciple Have you ever sinned "willfully" since you got saved? How do you reconcile your own imperfection with Heb 10:26-27?
Daniel King Yes I have, and I have repented. It is part of the process of sanctification, which one willingly surrenders to God. But you didn't answer my question. You deflected by turning it around on me. Nice try though. I'm still waiting for an answer.
Salvation cannot be lost. However, we are all sinners that need continual repentance, whether we are Christians or not.
Believers cannot sin because sin is transgression of the law and we are no longer under law, but under grace. We do still sin (that is our flesh) but our spirit does not and it cannot because it is from God. Our sins are not counted against us (our spirit) because those who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation of sin. It's really not that hard to understand, but most people would rather choose the broad way of self-righteousness that leads to destruction
@The Coming Kingdom Exactly what I was thinking. So God forgives all sins past present future except self righteousness??? That's being legalistic about legalism which is completely nonsense and hypocritical.
You are your body and soul. To say you are just your soul/ spirit is Gnosticism
Shalom to all,
Its not Legalism to Live Holy or preach that those who become Born Again should be living Holy and repenting of sins still commited. Repenting is a changing of mind AND action. A Born again Christian should Repent as often as they find something in their life that does not reflect the image of Christ since that is who we are being conformed to and this continues until we reach the kingdom.
Its not bondage or legalism to change your mind and actions when those actions reflect the carnal nature or old patterns of the now dead person who is being made alive in Christ. "You were once dead in your sins and trespasses " hence sins and trespasses are still sins and trespasses that need to be changed.
Christ delt with the eternal consiquences of those sins, however if you speed in your car then you are breaking the law and we are to submit to the authorities(Romans 13) meaning if a christian is driving a car and they break the law they still get a ticket in this life. You need to adjust your speed and get in alignment with the law --- REPENTING
This is the same for the word of God- When you find something in the word of God you are not in alignment with you need to REPENT and get in aligment with it.
I fail to see how thats Legalism-- I believe its called OBEDIENCE:
1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
I wish you all nothing but peace and Joy in Messiah Jesus,
Fruit of the Vine
+Fruit of the Vine Ministries Such a great post--thanks brother. I can't wait until we live in the times when even the bells on the horse's bridles will say "Holiness unto the Lord"! Can you imagine?
Instead of men treating sin like a cream puff and holiness like a rattlesnake, it will be the other way around! I never did see why anyone would want a rattler cream puff anyhow... ;-)
Fruit of the Vine Ministries we cannot,and never will live holy in this falling state!!its impossible!
So you're saying the New Testament writers who continually tell us to live Upright, Holy, and Godly lives in this world are lying to us?
Fruit of the Vine Ministries what I'm saying is,being perfect in the flesh is impossible..God's righteousness is the standard..
I would encourage you to read Romans 8, You are correct, being perfect in the flesh cannot happen. But we are called to walk in the Spirit and Romans 6 says we are freed from sin if we truly have become born again.
If you understand the Holy Spirit, and walk in him, you do not have to sin. Sin is a choice. Again Romans says we were once slaves to sin and now we are called to be Slaves to Righteousness.
Only those who overcome will see the kingdom. Those are Jesus' words my friend, not mine.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world." [Titus 2:11-12]
"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain." [2 Corinthians 6:1]
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man will see the Lord; looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." [Hebrews 12:14]
The foundation of the Christian life is not grace. The foundation of the Christian life is Christ. "No other foundation can any man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Corinthians 3:11] Jesus taught that whoever hears His words and does them is wise, and whoever hears His words and does not do them is a fool. [Matthew 7:24-27]
If a man believes he is saved by grace, yet is living in an adulterous marriage [Matthew 5:31-32] he is deceived. "If a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery. And if a woman divorces her husband and be married to another she commits adultery." [Mark 10:11-12] True grace will lead a man or woman to leave adultery the same way it will lead homosexuals and fornicators to separate.
If a man believes he is saved by grace and would use violence to protect himself, his family, his possessions, or his country, he is deceived. Jesus taught, "Resist not evil...love your enemies...do good to those who hate you, and bless those that persecute [pursue you with violence]." [Matthew 5:38-48] True grace will lead men to turn the other cheek, to forgive, to return evil with good, to leave the military, to pray for those who hate them.
If a man believes he is saved by grace and is laying up treasures on earth he is deceived. [Luke 12:16-21] True grace leads a man to deny himself, to be rich towards God, and to love his neighbor as himself.
Many believe Jesus died for their sins, few believe Jesus.
Many believe One died in their place, but they do not believe the One Who died.
The true grace of God will lead a man to deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Jesus. It teaches men to "Enter in at the straight gate: For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." [Matthew 7:13-14]
Some choose their road and accepts its destination, others choose their destination and accept the road.
If the road your on leads you to divorce, another marriage, war, lawsuits, immodest clothing, pursuing wealth, self indulgence, gluttony, swearing oaths, or any other heathen practice, your destination is the burning lake and no amount of grace will save you from that end. False grace will justify those who do these things, and give them a false peace. True grace will teach men to forsake these things and to follow Jesus.
The only way to avoid the condemnation of eternal fire is to get off that road and follow Jesus.
After listening to Andrew Farley and Bob Christopher, I find Dr Brown confusing.
thanks Dr brown
the last caller quoting Robert Sungenis is obviously a Roman Catholic who's method of totally obeying the law is through the mass sacrament and confessionals
Robert Sungenis has debated James White on Mary, The mass, Sola Scriptura, and pergutory, amongst others
I find it ironic that a keen follower of Robert Sungenis books can say we can keep the law if he needs all these rituals
If we could keep the law the cross was not necessary only One person kept the law and he fulfilled it as well and that was Jesus our redeemer and perfect sacrifice lamb
Good point Mr King of already but not yet with Grace and forgiveness.
"Nothing unclean enters heaven" If Hebrews 6:4-6 for example applies to our salvation then if we ever sin after being saved we’ll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. The New Covenant would be worse than the Old, not better. They were condemned for their actions. According to Matt. 5, we’d be condemned for our thoughts. They couldn’t murder. We couldn’t even be angry. They couldn’t commit adultery. We couldn’t even have a lustful thought. Think of it. No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? Did God become man and die the most painful death ever devised only to put His children into an even more untenable position than before? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? I can’t believe so.
God took off external pressure and external restraint and put it all internally in our spirit. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” - 2 TIMOTHY 1:7 We don‟t have a spirit that is moved by fear but a spirit that is moved by his power, his love and his perfect mind.
Believe it or not, a born-again Christian doesn‟t want to just go out and sin. They actually want to get rid of sin. Their new nature struggles with sin and doesn‟t like sin. The flesh and mind still like sin but your spirit doesn‟t! Sin is foreign to our spirit.
The more we live by our spirit the more we can overcome sin. If we are putting “have-to‟s” on people then we are not teaching them how to walk by the Spirit but by external rules and laws that are not based on faith and which lock up the new nature.
this really helped me maybe this was helpful for you too.
God Bless.
There is sin that is unto death and sin that is not unto death.
Luk_13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
The hyper grace people wish that wasn't in the Bible
Can Christians sin? They must have the potential of sinning, else why would Jesus tell the churches in Revelation to repent? What are they supposed to repent of?
Every Christian needs to listen to Dr Brown. Most people come up with these movements because they really don't want to change who they currently are (fleshy)
I don't think this characterization is true. What I am saying is that legalism has no power to change anyone, only Christ can change someone. A relationship with Christ is the only way to bring permanent change to one's behavior.
Daniel King
Shalom,
I listend very carefully to everything you said inthe debate and I believe there is a huge disconnect in the conversation. What your saying is the Milk, what Dr. Brown is saying is the Meat. Your talking about Salvation. Dr. Brown is talking about Living the Christian Life after salvation. You had two difference conversations and when confronted with the full council of God regurding christian living you disengaged and reverted back to salvation.
Its not Legalism to Live Holy or preach that those who become Born Again should be living Holy and repenting of sins still commited. Repenting is a changing of mind AND action. A Born again Christian should Repent as often as they find something in their life that does not reflect the image of Christ since that is who we are being conformed to and this continues until we reach the kingdom.
Its not bondage or legalism to change your mind and actions when those actions reflect the carnal nature or old patterns of the now dead person who is being made alive in Christ. "You were once dead in your sins and trespasses " hence sins and trespasses are still sins and trespasses that need to be changed.
Christ delt with the eternal consiquences of those sins, however if you speed in your car then you are breaking the law and we are to submit to the authorities(Romans 13) meaning if a christian is driving a car and they break the law they still get a ticket in this life. You need to adjust your speed and get in alignment with the law --- REPENTING
This is the same for the word of God- When you find something in the word of God you are no not in alignment with you need to REPENT and get in aligment with it.
I fail to see how thats Legalism-- I believe its called OBEDIENCE:
1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Blessings to you Brother, I wish you nothing but peace and Joy in Messiah,
Fruit of the Vine
Daniel King Amen.
Shall we bathe in sin? NO!
We are to live as we are positionally, seated in heavenly places.
Do good, hate sin. All for it!
Yet, don't put these desires given by our spiritual rebirth by the way ahead of God Himself and the grace He freely has offered.
You cannot forfeit your salvation.
You are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption regardless of your evil sins.
1 little sin disqualified you from eternity with God.
His Son has erased your sins and made you Holy, pleasing to God.
Jesus, Paul, John, James all have the same message about Grace. There is no contradiction in the word. All of them are saying live in Grace so you will not sin and if you sin ask God to forgive you. Don't let sin rule over you. They are say don't let sin rule your live. Our goal is not to sin and to do that is to live in the Grace God has given.
Excellelnt job Michael!!
God will never choose anyone to His service if they have not conquered sin,so who are these sinners who say that they are fully saved while serving sin, you can't become more hipocritical then that and I would never take direction from anyone who lives like that nor let them have any position of authority in the church body. This is the apostasy.
When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for all our sins, past, present and future. We now have no condemnation because of what He did. When we are born again we become sons of God. All our righteousness are not ours, but Christ righteousness. We are the righteousness of God through Jesus finished work, all our righteousness are as filthy rags according to Isaiah. We are called to be holy. We are to walk in the spirit as sons of God. The reality is that we fall into sin again. The key is to get up and not stay down and wallow in the mud like the pigs. Daily we die, daily we renewed our minds, daily we follow Jesus. We are to put on the whole armor of God so we can be victorious. If we are not victorious, if we are not walking in the spirit, if we are not living a holy life, then may be we were never born again in the first place. Jesus said, they shall know you by the way you love each other. Paul said, they shall know you by the fruit you exhibit. If I keep exhibiting carnal fruits, may be I was never regenerated in the first place. Our holy lives are because we love the Lord, not because I have to do or else. Same concept when two people get married. Neither bring their "10 commandments" to the altar. No, after the wedding, we do things for each other because we love each other, not because we have to do. Thats grace, God loves us regardless of our performances.
I don't agree. Whenever work is added to the salvation, no matter it's added before, or after. Or it's added for whatever reason, grace is no longer grace. We are saved by faith alone, not by faith + work.
If Repenting of sin is works,wouldn't believing be works as well?
Jesus said we need to obey him to be saved. James says faith without works cannot save. Paul says if we go on sinning willfully there remains no more a sacrifice for sins. John says he that hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life.
I'm starting to think faith alone, at least not faith alone as it's commonly understood is not biblical.
Two guys discussing a building one is looking at the frount the other st the rear .Same building differing perspectives.
There is a lot of truth in your comment. Most of the debate about grace/hyper-grace comes down to which Scriptures one chooses to emphasize.
That's heretical, not hermeneutical. Hermeneutics says that you take ALL of what's said on a given subject, not just the parts you like. When one takes the stance that faith without works is dead, all scriptures on this subject harmonize well. When one takes the stance that you can live like hell and still make heaven he has to ignore completely most of the Bible. There's more written in scripture concerning hell than there is of heaven. And for good reason: nobody needs to be warned to avoid heaven. People who think you can believe whatever you want so long as you believe something do NOT know the Bible. And if they don't even know the book, they sure don't know the Author. There's no debate on this subject at all to anyone who KNOWS the Bible OR its Author. If you love Him, you'll live to please Him, it's as simple as that. By even arguing to get out of it, you show you DON'T love Him, only yourself and your own lusts. W.C. Fields was once asked why he was carrying a Bible. He answered, "Looking for loopholes." If you love and are committed to Someone, you don't look for loopholes, you don't look for outs. In fact, its offensive to your spirit to see people who do. And if it offends His true people, it offends Him even more.
I like to consider the definition of : Unmerited favor, with reflection. The rub from Dr. Brown is obvious to me. He is saying a believer has to reflect upon Grace and allow it to manifest as progressive sanctification, or result in falling away from faith if grace is presumed, resulting in unrepentance and a hardening of heart.
in the end it is all about one thing: if we say we love God, then we obey is His Word, empowered by His Grace,enabeling us to obey Him. We are called to fulfill the first commandment, to love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. 1 John 5:3 " In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," Grace is God's power to and in us to become what we are called to be. 1 Cor.15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." We can choose not to obey His commandments, declarings thus that we do not keep the first of all commandments and by disobedience destroying His plans for our lives, not living according to His Word and of course there always consequences of disobedience. What we sow we will reap, good or bad. God is not mocked
the WORK of God is to BELIEVE on Him whom he sent.
the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they DO NOT BELIEVE
the old law is was not made so that we would obey it, but to reveal to us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour. Christ was provided on the cross so that those who believe on Him will be made perfect in HIS works rather than the deeds of our flesh. so by believing on Christ as our complete body of good works, our righteousness is made perfect by our faith in HIS works, because faith without works is dead. so the question is, what are your works? you will either be judged by your own works or by the works which God provided on the cross. our sanctification is not a gradual process where we sin less and less in our flesh until we are without sin, but sanctification is having our spirit set apart from our works UNTO Christ's works, which is imputed to us through our faith by God's grace.
Amen
This verse actually was only misunderstood first in Christian history, by the mind science adherents, namely, EW Kenyon and unfortunately K. Haigen. The blindness of a lie is remarkable. First we have testimony in Acts, after Peter preaches, the Holy Spirit convicts the people of sin, and urges them to repent. But this verse is actually a verse against Hyper Grace. The Greek word can be transalted sins(hermatia). Cant you actually see that it is the opposite of Kenyons interpretation, ie. not just one sin of unbelief, but that he convicts the world of sin actually sin. Why does and how does he have the right to convict the world of sin. Because they do not believe on Jesus. Not that unbelief is the only thing the Holy Spirit convicts of, but that all sin once convicted of has one answer in Jesus. Actually you cant believe in Jesus the righteous for his righteousness and not know you are a sinner. That just doesn't make sense. You have the eastern symbol of yin and yang. Cant you see then that to receive the righteousness of God, one would have to be convinced of their unrighteousness. You cant have one without the other. ....
"the old law is was not made so that we would obey it"
Prov 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law(Torah).
Deut 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments
always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Prov 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long
life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
Prov 7:1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee. 2 Keep my commandments, and
live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. 3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine
heart
Everyone who is apart of the commonwealth of Israel is commanded to repent(turn) from sin and obey the Torah. I agree with you that the law was made "to reveal to us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour" but that is not the only reason it was made. The purpose of the law is 3-fold:
1. To define what sin is. 1John 3:4
2. To pronounce blessings on those who obey. Deut 11:27
3. To pronounce curses on those who disobey. Deut 11:28
1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Deut 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: :20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Forget about salvation for a while. It's a done deal. Through grace by faith. I think this debate can be settled by one question: are there different statuses (ranks) for human in heaven ? If yes, what makes someone earn or deserve higher status ?
Isn't it by grace through faith.
Repentance is NOT works....Repentance and Faith are Cohesive-Twins. When a person REPENTS He or She is doing so "In Faith" it is not works. Works are exterior actions while True REPENTANCE involves an interior change of the Heart towards exterior actions. Thank You *****
Thanks for this post Hope Lives!!!. Its hard to believe that people can't see that they must Repent after salvation.
crimsun tears Yes Once Saved Always Saved is a lie from the pit of Hell. Just considering that Jesus himself told us that if we do not forgive our father in heaven will not forgive us, or the lukewarm church. These are clearly conditional.
Hope Lives!!! I have watched a few of his videos.
crimsun tears Yes I have watched several. It is just common sense. But we must pray that God will lead us into all TRUTH. God Bless
crimsun tears repentance is only a change of ways, a change of mind, not a change of the heart. Thats why Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:3, "you must be born again". when you are born again, you are a completely new person(2Cor. 5:17). If you just repent, you are still son of adam(ICor. 15:49). When you are born again, you are the son of God, you have the shield of the Holy Spirit and nothing can take that away from you(Romans 8:14-17, 38)!
The issue is that thier are two types of believers. One is motivated by fear and the other Grace .Some teachings are more subtle than others. Catholicism being the high extreme . Universalism being the other end .
You were both equivocating on the terms holiness, righteousness during your discussion.Daniel most of the time was speaking about the "imputed righteousness of Christ"(Rom 4:6) while Michael was speaking mostly about "our own practical righteousness" that we practice which is of the law(Php 3:8-9). These 2 righteousness are taught in the bible but are distinct from one another.
If one holds strictly to the KJ,ASV, or Geneva translation of 1 JN 3:9 "doth not commit sin" then you would have to come to an imputed righteousness understanding. If one reads the "makes a practice of sinning" translation then it is speaking of course of our own righteousness.
I believe John Gill has the correct understanding of this phrase and meaning:
DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN: does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason:
for his seed remaineth in him; not the word of God, or the Gospel, though that is a seed which is sown by the ministers of it, and blessed by God, and by which he regenerates his people; and which having a place in their hearts, becomes the ingrafted word, and there abides, nor can it be rooted out; where it powerfully teaches to avoid sin, is an antidote against it, and a preservative from it: nor the Holy Spirit of God, though he is the author of the new birth, and the principle of all grace; and where he once is, he always abides; and through the power of his grace believers prevail against sin, and mortify the deeds of the body, and live: but rather the grace of the Spirit, the internal principle of grace in the soul, the new nature, or new man formed in the soul, is meant; which seminally contains all grace in it, and which, like seed, springs up and gradually increases, and always abides; and is pure and incorruptible, and neither sins itself, nor encourages sin, but opposes, checks, and prevents it:
Good point. There is a lot of theological nuance that is difficult to cover in such limited time.
InTheSpirit12 Thank you so much for your comment! It brings more clarity to the issue.
+InTheSpirit12 Gill is one of my favorite commentators. Posts like yours show why. Thanks for that. ;-)
The problem with the hypergrace crowd is they don't realize that 1 grace is not irresistible, before or after conversion, they once saved always saved teaches irresistible grace post salvation, 2 salvation is not simply salvation from hell, but salvation from sin itself, not just the consequences of sin. God intendeds to make us perfect holy creatures, wether that happens in this life or the next, once we are fully saved in heaven we will be creatures without taint of sin.
Hyper grace theology just wants to take only Paul’s epistles and apply them as they want bcuz they disregard where Paul urges repentance from sins committed after being saved!
yes
John 14:23-24 (KJV)
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:15-16 (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Did anyone expect Paul to preach about the joys of sinning? Of course he preaches to walk by the spirit in holiness.
Yet if we fail, we aren't cursed as under the Old Covenant!
I know I definitly cant keep the law just letting everyone know, if anyone thinks he can keep the law, he is greatly deceived
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The reason why someone would walk blamelessly is because God saw no sin in him because of his faith again it's credited righteousness
+Dalton Pyron yes And no yes I am a new creation, I am a saint not a sinner and that verse is to show us we can't make it on our own but the law is the opposite of living by the spirit read Galatians 5 you start with the spirit and finish by the spirit if you continue by the law Paul says you have fallen from grace... Though I do not think your salvation is in question here when we say fallen from grace. The thing is law makes sin bigger and you gotta understand Jesus is the biggest
+Dalton Pyron what in trying to say is when you live by the spirit it will bring more obedience than living under the law, remember the law is written in our hearts now not on stone
+Dalton Pyron please start in verse 7
So you refuse to correct yourself that chapter is clear, im not saying your not saved I don't doubt your salvation but your not living the way a Christian should according to Paul, you do not understand the context of the passages your giving, hope you read it again
Great debate! I would also like to add a commentary on 1 John 3:5-9.
From "Things Hard To Be Understood" by David W. Cloud:
Things Hard to be Understood
1 John. 3:5-9
“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” - 1 John 3:5-9
In what sense does the believer “sin not”? This cannot mean that the believer is incapable of sinning or that he has sinless perfection. John already refuted that idea. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). Sin continues to be present in the believer’s life, and it is dealt with by confession and the advocacy of Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9; 2:1-2). What, then, does 1 John 3:5-9 teach? In this passage, John is refuting the error that claims it does not matter how a Christian lives since he is saved by grace. Paul referred to this same error in Ro 6:1-2. Both Paul and John teach us that true salvation is evidenced by righteous living. Christ is the believer’s life and righteousness (1 John 3:5; compare 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21). Christ lives in the genuine believer; “his seed remaineth in him”; he is born again by the Spirit of God. If a person claims to be saved but continues to be dominated by sin and does not strive to serve Christ in righteousness and holiness---“doeth not righteousness”---that person is deceived. The verbs here are in a continuous sense, referring not merely to acts of sin but to a pattern of life.
+Linda Robey Yep. The word 'prasso' is translated merely 'do' here and in Galatians 5 where it says 'they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God'. Prasso means to do habitually or continuously: as in a LIFESTYLE of sin. No Christian sins willfully. But while we are made perfect in love, we are not made perfect in knowledge. Thus we can have mishaps: "If any man be taken in a fault, you which are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness considering also yourselves lest ye be tempted".
The word 'overtaken' in the KJV here actually means 'to have a mishap publicly'. There is no excuse for a lifestyle of sin in this--and even less in view of such a great promise as this: "It is God Who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". If GOD does a thing--it's getting DONE.
Nice post--thanks for sharing. Hope you don't mind my two cents here. ;-)
The best response yet - thank you, this is understanding and properly and rightly dividing the Word of truth. We ARE saved by grace and we CANNOT work for our salvation, but based on the marvelous scriptures you posted above, if we indeed have Jesus living in us we are not going to live a life of continued sin - period, end of story.
Hello Dr. Brown firstly I must apologise for accusing you of not debating grace teachers fairly on another post I hadn't seen this post obviously I hadn't researched it enough before my comments
A kid jumps on the bosom of his long-awaited Dad, and starts to cry after seeing the shadow behind his Dad. And the Daddy ask the child why he was crying,and the child replies....'' GET RID OF YOUR SHADOW''!!!
Daddy says to child,'as long as the LIGHT of my Father shines on me,my shadow shall always be part of me;You embrace me,you embrace my shadow indirectly instead of directly as in the past.'
Staying on the 'Narrow path' means living Lawfully according to the Torah/shadow ( Isaiah 35:8, Matthew 7) , but unfortunately...Man can't stay on track without the ONE/Messiah Revealed ( Jesus) that keeps you on it (1 Corinthians 1:8 Colossians 1:16 ) .
Our identity is Saint, holy, child of God and now give Give grace to walk as a position ( identify)
If I'm wrong, I apologize to you and mainly to God. I am in no way trying to teach false gospel or false doctrines. I believe I am a babe in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit and I will inherit the Kingdom by the grace of God by the blood of Jesus. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. My words are certainly not Scripture. I'm growing in the knowledge of God. I pray the Holy Spirit guides to me to all truth, Jesus. God bless you all! Believe in Jesus- the will of the Father.
Another issue with the idea about ' practicing sin ' as if there is different degrees with no distinction and there is never a clarification from certain Christian s ( fruit inspectors) as to the degree or extent . Adam sinned just once ? We have to be careful with this . This creates ladder life Christian's, heart hardened fruit inspectors. Sin is bad , let's not sin . Simple . Grace is a better motivator than morbid fruit inspecting and ' ladder life ' and thinking your making yourself clean when were already cleansed.
The Grace message is simple. God has given us Grace all we need to do is walk in it. When we don't walk in Grace, we sin and if we continue in sin it leads to death.
Earline Hooten Hi sis...can you explain to me what walking in grace means?
Earline Hooten resting
wow this guy literally believes that sin has 0 spiritual consequences.
If you have a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus, don't works come naturally? You naturally strive to do everything he commanded, and you naturally feel the need to repent of your sins. Do you fail? Of course. But you're still trying. Even though the fruit is produced by the Holy Spirit, you're still trying because that's what you do with a relationship - you try.
Seems so simple and yet it manages to get so complicated. x.x
+SuperKlizzard Exactly. The key words in your post are: "If you have a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus". Christ said some would come and claim acquaintance with Him saying how many great things they'd done in His name, but he would say to them "depart: I never knew you." The word translated simply 'knew' there actually means 'to know intimately'.
So while He didn't necessarily reject their claim to having MET Him, He said they never got to know Him WELL. Like I met Willie Nelson once--just once, years ago. I could go around telling people I knew Him really well, I could even hold concerts for farmers, claiming to be his associate. Would any of that be true? NOPE.
When you're intimate with Jesus, we know works aren't a problem: when you love someone and are with them, you naturally WANT to please them. So when folks HAVE ISSUES with that, what they're actually saying is that they know Him really well, and have held concerts for farmers...or the faith.
But really, they're just wannabe groupies who NEED to repent of what they're letting keep them from Him and REALLY GET TO KNOW HIM. ;-)
Being holy,is being absolutely perfect in everything you do...
No, it's not. That's YOUR ASSUMPTION, NOT SCRIPTURE. Holy simply means 'set apart'-set apart for God's purpose. Scripture also makes clear that God looks on the heart and its INTENT, not the outward appearance. If you think about it, going by an outward definition of what holiness is would never work, since that is highly subjective-ten different people would see holiness as ten different things (twenty if they're Jews).
We see lots of people who today even harp on the actions of Christ and accuse Him of unholiness, so the opinions of man are obviously NOT the way to go on this issue-as He said Himself. ("You care more for the opinions of man than for the opinions of God".)
So we can be walking in perfect righteousness and people will still falsely accuse us of the worst things, as they did Him.
As long as we are living up to what we know of scripture's requirements of us once we know Christ, we are living in holiness. Once God has 'purified our hearts by faith' we can walk in perfect love toward Him and toward man. (Love also has a distinct Biblical definition, and is not the highly subjective thing people think it is.) We're made perfect in love: but we are not perfect in knowledge as yet. Look at Peter's words:
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.~2 Peter 1:5-15
Notice the first thing Peter tells us to ADD TO OUR FAITH is GOODNESS (virtue in the KJV). Why command that if we couldn't DO it? Then he says we should add knowledge-knowledge so that we'll know not only what is right but WHY it's right. Then we are to have self-control and perseverance, godliness, mutual affection (philadephia-brotherly love), and to that, love (agape-a sense of moral and social RESPONSIBILITY). Agape is the word Christians are required to walk in, and the one we hear commonly referred to as God's love. While feeling may have a part in it, agape is not based on feelings, but on doing what is RIGHT. By using such a word rather than the other words that might be chosen-philadelphia, phileo, etc.-scripture is clearly showing us true love is found in RIGHTEOUSNESS, not in feelings.
The 'love' most people THINK OF as godly love is actually man's love (phileo), one that IS based on feeling. This is the kind of 'love' that sees shows of affection as true while it will turn around two seconds later and stab the object of its 'affection' in the back. It's the darling of the divorce court, the father of friendships falling out and the mother of murder when the object of affection either fails to stir it anymore, angers it, or becomes too much bother.
So if it's too much 'bother' to follow Christ into goodness/virtue guess what kind of 'love' you really have for Him?
Read John chapter 8. Here we see Jesus say: "If you CONTINUE IN MY WORDS then are you MY DISCIPLES INDEED." This is important because He is speaking here to Jews whom, we are told HAVE believed on Him ALREADY. Yet by the end of this chapter these same 'believers' are taking up stones to stone Him. They couldn't even continue in His words until the end of that chapter. And in the end they demonstrated a murderous spirit toward Christ. This issue is all-important: don't fool yourself. You'll either continue in His words or you'll end up hating Him. I've seen this demonstrated many times through the years. You can't walk with Him in dishonesty. "They that worship Him MUST worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH."
Looking again at Peter's words, notice at the bottom he says that he who lacks these things is blind, not seeing 'past the end of his nose' so to speak (afar off) and has forgotten his own salvation from his old sins. He goes on to warn that we make our election-that's our status as one of His elect-sure (indicating it isn't if we're in this state) and says if we do WE SHALL NEVER FALL. It's there in black and white: we don't have to fall.
Now why would anyone who loved God want to fall if he didn't have to?
He wouldn't.
Neither would he be found arguing why he could or should, thereby providing provision for his flesh to do so.
I accept correction..it does mean set apart..in order the be righteous in God's eyes,you must be perfect in everything you do,which is impossible
Paying lip service to accepting correction is not the same thing as actually DOING SO. And you are still holding to your precept that YOU know the definition of 'perfection', and that it has to be what you say it is. When did God die and make you king? Are you God that you know so unquestioningly exactly what the definition of perfection is, and are so sure that we cannot be so? I hear you giving your own opinion, but I don't see any scripture from you to back it up.
News flash: your opinion and a dime won't buy a cup of coffee. It doesn't matter what you say, or what you think, no matter how right it seems to you, or how hard you insist upon it. What matters is what God's word says. And Jesus said, "Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." You state that Christ commanded us to do something we cannot do. He didn't. Therefore you have to be wrong.
And here's a hint: your idea of what something has to be isn't necessarily what it IS. Perfection is what GOD says it is, not what you THINK it is. And your definition isn't Biblical, friend: it's CULTURAL.
Scripture defines perfection before God as being complete in Him, walking in faith and love and obedience to Him. It says nowhere that the opinions of men on what's perfect and what's not matter one bit. This includes me and you. Quit believing everything you've been told and start studying the Bible for yourself. Start by bringing EVERY thought captive to the obedience of Christ-even the ones that seem to be unquestionably GOOD thoughts to you. You'll find (as I did once I started many years ago) that 'good' often isn't very good at all, and that 'evil' often isn't evil, only ignorance. This is where the Spirit comes in, dividing soul from spirit and our own ideas from His eternal truth. Ask the Lord to reveal this to you.
Does the cross of Jesus Christ saves?
No, JESUS saves: the cross was a pagan symbol long before Jesus died on it, and it never saved anyone. He was crucified ON it BECAUSE it was a pagan symbol of Rome. And like I just said to someone else here, every time you gnostics get your pet false doctrine disproved, you try to mix apples and oranges by pretending the discussion is about salvation. It's not. It's about what you DO with salvation, whether you show respect and gratitude for what you got, or you treat it and your savior like dirt and expect God to be sucker enough to let you get by with that (be not deceived: God is NOT mocked). Quit trying to change the subject and stick to the point. We both know you don't have a leg to stand on scripturally, so quit wasting people's time with red herrings while you find excuses to keep living in sin.
Christ already said you can't serve both God and sin.
Scripture also talks about damning heresies. Know what those are? As the Bible defines them, they are any opinion, preference or feeling/sentiment you prefer to the word of God. It also makes clear that once you've been told the truth you're held accountable for it-NO excuses. When Christ spoke to the Pharisees about loving the opinions of man more than the opinion of God they weren't a 'special case'. ANYONE who puts his own opinions, preferences or feelings above God's word is included in that. Better make up your mind which master you want: all signs point to His kingdom coming soon.
He has 4 semesters of Greek and doesn't understand the present active tense? I would expect that from most pastors today that take zero Greek and those that have zero higher theological education but he is without excuse.
1 John 3 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
just bought your book!
They don’t consider these epistles of Paul’s were just letters he wrote to leaders of the church’s he helped establish. They have no way of knowing in depth his actual sermons and teachings. He even addressed in his letters keeping all of the 10 commandments except keeping the sabbath holy. He addressed repentance for sins committed AFTER being saved. He urged striving to be living righteously according to the gospel of Jesus Christ-meaning he taught living as Jesus said to live. I guess the most important thing is actually striving to live and grow in your walk with the Lord and allowing yourself to be led and guided by the Holy Spirit--which does convict us of our sins we continue to commit! Hyper grace seems to hijack the gospel of Jesus and I think although meant well is a deception inspired by Satan as it goes against the message of the entire Bible and is based so much on modern (mostly KJV) translations rather than searching the Hebrew and Greek bcuz some meanings have gotten lost in translation!
Paul said to the Galatians to not use the freedom we have in Christ as an opportunity for the flesh....
Don't you think there is a kind of surrender in will while accepting Gods direction? Wouldn't this mean Gods plan not ours? Its not as if I surrender my carnal will and God leads me to sin... Yes, grace, and yes works, (not our own but convicted to love others and God). That is why the yoke is so light.
17:20 The caboose is the main purpose of Christ, he was called Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins.
ok i had enough at the 25;15 min mark.king teaches that your disobedience is covered by christs death and resurrection meaning past present and future no matter what but the bible doesnt teach that.the bible teaches that we can fall away from grace given that the believer can go back into the world 1 john 2;14 and be seen as an unbeliever again and according to scripture remain that way except for the parable of the prodigal son.however not all prodigal son cases happen though, bc jesus and paul made it clear in the parable of the talents,the irresponsible servant,the israelis disobedeince that such cases do happen among believers.daniel king,yankee arnold are fooling themself except in the case of repentance luke 15;7 and yet people like daniel assume that repentance-metanoia consists only of the change of mind problem without the second part turning away from sin which all easy-believism 'stake-holders'leave out,making them 'hate' their lordship salvation counterparts''for practising a 'works gospel' ,-the lordshippers putting themself under ' law again,then why did jeremiah say i will right my laws in their heart ezekial said it too-this is the new covenant.the law in the believers heart john 3;5 this law-the new heart of the holy-spirit can bc 'overcome when wee choose to live disobedient lives- luke 6:46,9;63 romans 8;12-13,13'11, galations 5;20.ephs and 1 john with james talks about works 2;12 eph 2;10,james 2;14 and holiness-1 peter 1;14,2 peter 1;2-9 are intertwined,u cant have one without thee other otherwise ones works fall not flourish-matt 7;24-26.
Hey Jesus says by their fruits we will know them....oh God please help me to be perfect...
Grace + Works = Holiness
Faith worketh by love. Love without outward expression? "Better open hatred than secret love." Your math adds up! ;-)
Too focused on our own perceived righteousness and not Gods. We have no righteousness of our own. Only JESUS CHRIST is Holy and Righteous
@@christianhippie711 Yes and he shares that rightousness and makes us rightous so that we will become no longer sinners worthy of hell.
Beware the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees and Sadducees, Matt 16:12
As a little leaven, leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
Michael Brown misunderstands scripture and his error doctrine could potentially lead to legalism.
Christ is our only teacher, Matt 23:8, and all we Christians are brethren. God says you have no need that any man, such as Dr Brown, should teach you, as the anointing (Christ in us) teaches us all things 1John 2:27.
The hypergrace crowd believe in irresistible grace after one first believes.
@29:39 when he ask Daniel King if he sins..I have listened to this interview several times and I cringe whenever I hear this response.
How come?
Greetings Sola Scriptura: I have not read through all your webpage that you referred me to...I will try...I just started looking at it tonight...I am traveling frequently and rarely have time to use the internet on my computer...I want to share this scripture with you first: 2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
The heart is not transformed before it turns to the Lord, the scripture says "nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." The heart must turn first. Transformation follows as the heart turns.
David Valderrama Here is a link to my blog: www.earlychristianlife.blogspot.com
Great Dr. Brown.
God gave the Law to show us His Holy standard and in doing so showed humanity's sinful nature.
We are not worthy to be heirs to the Kingdom. Our best efforts fall incredibly short.
This led to Jesus so we through His blood could be a part of His Holy Kingdom, children of the Most High.
He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
The Law is often referred to as a mirror. The mirror cannot cleanse us, but only show the dirt.
The mirror is shattered to those of faith.
Sins are no longer remembered by God, yet we all consume ourselves with our sins. We are too vain.
We need to look to and consume ourselves with the love of God, the Son.
The mirror is only there for those who do not yet believe.
They need it. They need shame. The world is puffed up in hideous love of self and their sins.
Micheal you ended with a proof text without context .
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
In context , notice verse 9 please .
the problem with hyper grace is a confusion in what happned on the cross. it is true that christ's blood was enough to pay for all sins past, present, and future. however, this doesnt mean that it automatically covers them.
think of it like a bank account. you have a debit card that can cover any amount. but if you keep a tab and never use the card, it does no good. repentance is using the debit card to cover your debts.
the hyper grace philosophy is that jesus came in and sais unlimited rounds for everybody on me. im sorry I just dont see that in the bible.
Hebrews says he is a once for all sacrifice
Jesus paid for sins once and for all. But the world is not therefore automatically saved. Many for whom Jesus died and paid the price for, will spend eternity in eternal conscious torment. You have completely missed the whole story of application, or receiving of Jesus. As for the believer, the same doctrine applies. We do not get what Jesus gives simply because we think it. That is mind science. We must come to Jesus, as James says as believers. Weep, howl and repent of our sins to apply his blood and forgiveness. His blood is not an ooze, just automatically applied because of thought or doctrine. His finished work must be received. And to receive it we would of neccesity have to know we have missed the mark. Do these people ignore the fact that it is God who created the conscience of man.
Grant Holland weeping and howling ? Really - maybe we should self flagellate like they do at Easter in some countries - will that seal the deal ? We could write our signature in our own blood as if His blood wasn’t enough. Ridiculousness from Pharisees and those who blend law and grace.
No need for annual sacrifice or weekly like the Catholics.
I personally believe salvation by grace-however, I believe we are forgiven for past and present sins at the time of salvation-but I do believe we are to repent & ask God’s forgiveness for any sins committed after we come to Christ. No matter what sins we do commit-we won’t go to hell, but we will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ for how we lived our lives as Christians ..it’s not all about rewards or it’d be called the Reward Seat of Christ-judgement brings consequences & punishment. Hyper grace theology undermines the whole entire Bible, including Jesus’ teachings-who it’s all supposed to be about!! And even Paul’s own teachings about repentance of sins, and who WONT inherit the kingdom of God-bcuz his letters were all to believers. He also taught keeping 9 of the 10 commandments as well! I will never put Paul’s teachings before Christ’s own teachings. I embrace all their teachings. Hyper grace theology seems to have put Paul ahead of and even replaced Jesus. In their theology a person who has been saved previously can go on later to commit murder, pedophelia, rape, steal, etc. and if not ever caught by police here on earth, they will never be held accountable by or punished by God-bcuz those sins aren’t counted by God--that’s insanity and goes against the entire Bible, God, Jesus....there ARE many out there who years after being saved, for whatever reason, started doing bad, even evil things! So what about those like that? They can’t ever explain that🤷🏼♀️ bcuz in reality it does happen and more often than they want to admit.
29:54 So you claim that God is denying reality. Or God is objectively right and nothing we do is a sin even murder. Then is John denying reality when he said I write to you that you sin not, and James when he said you sinners? If we cannot in objective reality, that is in the sight of God sin in anyway why does it say confess your sins one to anyone and if anyman sin we have an advocate with the father.
Mr brown is very prideful..he believe that he's humble,but his not..
I see that too. I especially didn't like the end of the show where he gave King 10 seconds to respond and he tried to let people know where to buy his book, and then Brown cut him off (which of course he had to because he ran out of time), to just say "if you want to know more, I wrote a book on it"! Are you kidding me? This is your radio show, you have a guest on who wrote a book on it, too. You should be giving out his book name, not your own - or at the least say "we wrote books on it" and give out both book titles.
Not to mention the pride that comes with the mentality of "we can keep the law". Of course you can't - that was the purpose of the law! It was to bring you to Jesus and the gospel of grace.
uhm get help...he clearly told of the other book...but the other book is utter deception...maybe it's you that's got the pride..the grace message given by this guy and guys like Joseph Prince is heresy
Hebrews 12:13-15 (KJV)
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
@ 26:00 There was this one "pastor' who not one of us who believed in a grace alone salvation.. his name was Bob George..I suppose you could call this man a hyper dispensation-ist. Hyperdispensationalism has been around a long time with the teaching of C R Stamm. These hyper dispies wanted to exclude parts of the Bible as having no application or value of the practices taught for that time in history. The 3 epistles of John for example were allegedly not the private mail for the modern church age. Since 1 John was allegedly not written to Pauline gentile believers , they believed that confessing your sins to God as outlined in 1 John 1:9 had no value for today but rather was destructive to our spiritual lives & our fellowship with God. Bob George taught that a bad conscience was because we were hanging on to provisions taught for other dispensations such as 1 John 1:9 which did not work for the Church age but rather we merely should recon ourselves to be dead to sin.. Romans 6:11 was then the answer to the problem not an inactive provision in 1 John. Though that is a Pauline Commandment I did not buy Bob George that 1 John 1:9 was valueless & harnful. The school of thinking our pastor teacher drilled into us was that 1 John 1:9 was ESSENTIAL to maintaining fellowship with God. I John 1:9 was 1 of 10 problem solving provisions of which was the GATEWAY to the other 9. George taught that practicing 1 john 1 9 would create a guilty conscience whereas our pastor teacher taught that it's practice would clean the conscience eventually resulting in a repentance or some positive change.
Can you repent of all your sins?
Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
We cannot sin because we, as believers, are no longer under the law.
Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Repentance of sins is works.
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
The one who does not work is saved as God justifies the ungodly.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I don't think Paul ment nothing you do counts as a sin. The hypergrace crowd convinced me that faith alone is unbiblical, they take faith alone to it's logical conclusion and that conclusion is not biblical. John says he that hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Not a murderer can have eternal life abiding in him as long as he believes.
@@christophersnedeker2065 yeah, everyone still sins. It isn't that we don't sin but that our sins are not counted against us. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and the sins that we commit are forgiven. And murder isn't the standard, if we have any sin we are not worthy of eternal life. Remember, even Moses is condemned under the law and didn't make it into the promised land and yet David who was an adulterer and a murderer is with God in heaven. We are all condemned under the law/by our works but if we trust/have faith in the perfect sacrifice of Christ we are forgiven of all our sins, i.e., His sacrifice was good enough to pay for all our sins, every single one, past, present and future. Faith alone just means faith without works but really it isn't without works, it is just without our works, which are filthy rags. The price of our sin has to be payed for and we can never pay it, fortunately, Christ did all the work for us on the cross. He paid our debt in full washing away all our sin by His blood with his perfect sacrifice.
Luk 18:13-14 KJV 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Try reading Romans 4, it talks quite a lot about faith alone in Jesus which is the narrow path through which we salvation.
Eph 2:8-9 KJV 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
@@empirelight5477 I don't think the common idea of Christ's rightousness being imputed to us is biblical. The only time I know of when the word imputed is in the Bible is when it says Abraham's faith was imputed to him for rightousness. What was imputed to him as righteousness? Abraham's own faith, it says nothing about Christ's rightousness being imputed to Abraham. I think this idea of Christ's rightousness being credited to us makes God into one who "doeth and maketh a lie".
@@empirelight5477 Another thing is that the salvation mentioned in the Bible isn't just salvation from hell, it's salvation from sin itself Matthew 1 21. We are not saved by having our sins ignored but got out. We are not made snow covered dung but made pure snow.
@@christophersnedeker2065 Rom_4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom_4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom_4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
caller seems to indicate we must be perfect as the Father in Heaven by our own obedience. Matthew 5:48
Good luck with that!!!
sounds like a Muslim to me. keep at it. Don't get angry now.
Dr Brown I think perhaps you haven't really struggled with tge absolute black-and-white language of 1st John.
For example, it says no one who hates his brother has eternal life. Does that mean that a Christian cannot, for even 1 second, harbor hatred ever?
I don't know what kind of linguistic basis there is for adding the word "practice" or "continue" before "sin", but isn't it possible there's a positional sense in which the new man cannot sin? Whilst there's a simultaneous reality that we can and do sin?
Is it possible that John had a specific sin in mind that's only possible for unbelievers?
I just think perhaps John is writing things we don't fully understand.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 puts hyper grace to rest. We CAN displease God through disobedience. Through sins of commission and omission (Revelation 2).
Excellent discussion. The Christian walk is like a marathon not a sprint; the harder you try to obey, the more difficult it gets because you end up trying to be “good” in the flesh.
It takes time to learn to walk after the spirit in order not to give into the lust of the flesh. Unfortunately many folks wants to project “holiness” before the spiritual growth takes place creating an artificial appearance of righteousness. That’s how judgmental self-righteous Christians are born. We need a serious personal relationship with Jesus and a whole lot of hyper grace to bring balance and love back into body of Christ.
There is a dispensational/contextual distinction between Paul/the body of Christ and Israel.
*2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
*1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Eph_4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Jesus died for our sin so that through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we no longer have to be slaves to sin, Jesus's love within us has no sin because against love there is no law, so a heart perfected in the love of Jesus can no longer sin, but we do make mistakes and when I do I still ask God to forgive me. Never does grace become a lisence to sin under another agreement, all old testament sin are still sin in the new and if you continue in sin you will be cut off from your hardening of your heart.
Here in one sentence is the essence of "hyper grace":
"To deny Christ’s all sufficient work on the cross, that the death & resurrection was not sufficient to save you is the most blasphemous statement a person can make in this age of grace."
"Hyper grace" says Jesus did it all for you on the cross... there's nothing you can add to what He did on the cross... there's nothing you need to do but believe He did it all for you on the cross... repenting from sin is dismissed as our "works": nice, but not required.
Contrast that to what Jesus said: "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5).
So what do hyper grace people say in response? They say repent has nothing to do with sin... repent means change your mind about not believing Jesus did it all for you on the cross! How clever of them! Voila! Your sins are forgiven even if you don't repent of them! Could it get any easier than that?
Such a conclusion is not Biblical. *Sins are not forgiven unless they are repented of!* That's the Biblical principle Jesus expounded in Luke 17:3,4:
"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and *_if_* he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."
Is it true that "Jesus did it all for you on the cross"? Did Jesus finish His work on the cross? No way! Jesus' work is _not_ finished! Quoting His own words, *Jesus is at work right now:*
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Jesus, in Revelation 3:19).
Jesus' work continues, even now, as He leads us through _sanctification_ or regeneration. If we'll abide in Him (John 15:1-7), He will lead us and help us to obey, repent and overcome. It is ongoing, active sanctification which frees us from slavery to sin and brings us to His righteousness, so that we may inherit the kingdom of God.
Through sanctification we are made a "new man... created in righteousness and true holiness" as Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:22-24:
"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Only through abiding in Him, obeying, repenting and overcoming can we put unrighteousness out of our lives and be prepared - made ready - to inherit the kingdom of God:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9,10).
We need to repent and put unrighteousness out of our lives. With His spirit leading and helping us during sanctification, we can put sin out of our lives, but *we must continually choose to abide in Him!* We are gradually re-made into the "new man," modeled after Jesus at every level: deeds, words and thoughts. Many will tell you "God wants us to live holy lives." That's a bit misleading. God isn't looking for actors: He's creating changed men and women, who do good works automatically, out of love for God and neighbor.
"Hyper grace" is easy to believe, and easily deceives. If it were "all done on the cross" there would be no need for sanctification... no need to abide in Him... no need to put unrighteousness out of our lives... no need to walk "the narrow way... that leads to life" (Matt 7:14)... no need to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)... no need to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10)...
When you think about verses like those, it's obvious that "just believe and you're saved" doesn't even pass the sniff test!
We must put off unrighteousness in order to be able to inherit the kingdom (1 Cor 6:10). We must abide in Him in order to put off unrighteousness. We have free will: we can, by our choice or neglect, fail to abide in Him. What happens then?
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).
Did Jesus say 'once a branch, always a branch'???
===============
*Justification by Grace, Sanctification by Grace, Salvation by Grace*
Justification is about being made right with God, or reconciled with God, in spite of the sins of our past. We have all sinned, and earned the penalty or "wages" of sin: "the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23). However - _by the grace of God_ - we can be spared from the hopelessness of our death penalty. Here, in Jesus' own words, is why He came:
"And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:27-28).
So, what did Jesus ransom us from? A prophecy in Hosea 13:14 explains:
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."
Jesus' death on our behalf made available a ransom, a payment of the death penalty we have each earned for our own sins. That payment is available for us - _by God's grace_ - *if* we'll repent - turn from sin - *turn from sin that earned us the death penalty in the first place.* Jesus did not die to make it okay for us to continue in sin!
If you really believe in Jesus, and believe what Jesus says, you can choose to obey and do what He says to do: repent and turn your life around. In that case you will be justified or reconciled to God, no longer _hopelessly_ bound to die for your sins. But you're still just as much a sinner by nature as you were before.
How does that get fixed? God - _by grace_ - gives His spirit "to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32). With His spirit we enter sanctification. Through sanctification we "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"... without which we cannot "inherit the kingdom of God" (Ephesians 4:24, 1 Corinthians 6:10).
During sanctification we have the *hope* of salvation, as Paul wrote:
"But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:8,9; also Acts 15:11; Romans 5:9; 1 Peter 1:13).
*Why* would he say we "hope... to obtain salvation" and "shall be" saved? I believe *Paul (and Peter) understood something that most professing Christians today do not understand: salvation happens when we actually receive immortal, spirit bodies at our resurrection at Jesus' return.* That's when we actually receive - _by grace_ - the gift of eternal life from God, as Paul explained in 1 Cor 15:50-54. That's when "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54). That's when we are *saved* from death, by receiving eternal life: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). That's when we are saved from perishing, by actually receiving eternal life (John 3:16).
1 Peter 1:13 nicely ties together the *hope* of salvation, and _grace_ - the gift of eternal life - and the revelation or return of Jesus:
"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and *hope to the end* for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
whatgodwants.info
Jesus said it is finished so right.... It's not finished... Need I say more...
Jesus said it is finished so right.... It's not finished... Need I say more... U
Jesus said it is finished so right.... It's not finished... Need I say more...
The Bible says ..thanks for your comments. I think your viewing Hyper Grace vs Legalism...like this phrase..." Be Holy...NOT Do Holy"..Hyper Grace says your a New Creation..your old self died...Christ cleaned house & moved in and took residence in you & me!! We have new hearts..with new desires!!...Its not about trying..its about trusting...big difference in motivation for why we do what we do. Blessings 😊
@@maxboucher86 Jesus also said he's coming back, he said the work of the cross was finished. If Jesus was finished with absolutely everything he ever planned to do how shall he wipe away every tear.
You can keep the law physically, but if you think a sin you have done it. So Jesus wants us to surrender our carnal demands such that we are heart and mind driven by the engine of the Holy Spirit. Still, I fail. I am human, but I am convicted in poor choices and repent of that action in faith that my judge says sin no more. But I will, hopefully less. As I increase my ability to love I should sin (violate the commandments) less.
+James Barker That's a common misunderstanding--that to think a sin is to do it. It's based on Christ's words that if a man look on a woman to lust he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. But if you look at Christ's actual words here, He says:
he that looks on a woman TO lust--not WITH lust (I'll let you check it out so you'll know I'm not making it up LOL). The Greek is even more clear, but the KJV phrase 'TO lust' also shows it has to do with having the INTENT to lust, not just a fleeting thought. The old saying about a bird flying over your head being one thing, but not having to let it nest in your hair is pretty apt. The thought flies up--just tell it to fly by.
;-)
James Barker wow!!!!thts heavy
Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Hyper gracers and easy believers often cut the passage off at verse 23 and say "see they were Lordship salvationists trying to get into heaven by their good works, the will of the father is just to believe in Jesus" but Jesus adds a "therefore"
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
As you can see the passage actually supports what is often called Lordship salvation, saying that those who say lord lord may work miracles for him, but they don't do what he tells them.
Daniel King presents a correct interpretation of 1 John 3:6. Romans 3:23 on the other hand DOES have a continual interpretation. All have sinned and CONTINUALLY fall short of the glory of God. All does not mean only unbelievers but all means all without exception. The Bible is absolute not relative. The seed does not sin. Jesus in the believer does not sin. God the father in Jesus Christ in the believer does not sin. The word of God is without sin. Does then the believer not sin? No. The seed is either active or passive. When active it causes the believer to not sin. When passive it does nothing & the flesh sins. The believer is dead to the flesh and the flesh dead to the believer. When I sin it is no longer I that sin but the sin that indwells me. Quenching the Spirit puts the flesh in control but the flesh is not the real me any more. If the verse is interpreted that which is born of God does not PRACTICE sin then does it sin periodically 1 John 1:10? No. Then does it ERADICATE sin? 1 John 1:8 NO It either is inactive or it is not sinning. This does not mean that quenching the Spirit is not a sin. It certainly is. It is not the seed that quenches the Spirit though rather the seed becomes inactive. The base of salvation remains at all times in spite of the condition of the believer. Salvation is not a license to sin but a foundation for righteousness. Neither is 1 John 1:9 a license to sin but a license to fellowship & restoration with the Father regardless of how far we have sinned or fallen short. Sinless perfection would never lose the filling of the Spirit but would always walk like Jesus walked. Who can say that they do? That it must produce an improvement in the life of the believer? No in fact the Corinthian church had sin in it that shocked the Gentiles. There is a paradox in the Christian life. All sin even the worst is paid for. No sin is justifiable or defend able. That is simple grace not even hyper grace. Hyper grace describes an abnormal mal adjusted Christian. One that continues in sin in order that grace will win the race is an abnormal state for a believer but in spite of that grace does win. James describes something else called GREATER GRACE. James 4:6 This is the kind of grace that those with humility have access to. It is far better than Romans 5:20 grace for God cannot commend 5:20 nut he does commend 4:6 When Michael @36:09 came on the phone I was disappointed in Dr. Browns response which showed how little discernment he really has. This legalist who was either out of the SDA or Hebrew Roots movement who was claiming we should keep the law of Moses, Dr Brown did not even notice where the dude was coming from. Even Arminians in denominations like the C&MA preach against salvation by law & know when a legalist is in their midst.
Further, the very title of King's book is deceptive and frames the debate wrongly. As if holiness teaching is competing with grace. If for NO OTHER REASON I know this hyper-grace message is false is because its proponents are deceptive, The same Paul who wrote of God's grace said PURSUE HOLINESS, WITHOUT WHICH NO MAN WILL SEE THE LORD-Heb 12. This explodes all his double-talk
I agree. We should pursue holiness. But, the only way to be holy is through Jesus. So really, we should pursue Jesus. Our own righteousness is as fifthly rags. We must reply upon Jesus' righteousness. The more we know Jesus, the less we will sin.
Daniel King "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world." [Titus 2:11-12]
"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain." [2 Corinthians 6:1]
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man will see the Lord; looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." [Hebrews 12:14]
The foundation of the Christian life is not grace. The foundation of the Christian life is Christ. "No other foundation can any man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Corinthians 3:11] Jesus taught that whoever hears His words and does them is wise, and whoever hears His words and does not do them is a fool. [Matthew 7:24-27]
If a man believes he is saved by grace, yet is living in an adulterous marriage [Matthew 5:31-32] he is deceived. "If a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery. And if a woman divorces her husband and be married to another she commits adultery." [Mark 10:11-12] True grace will lead a man or woman to leave adultery the same way it will lead homosexuals and fornicators to separate.
If a man believes he is saved by grace and would use violence to protect himself, his family, his possessions, or his country, he is deceived. Jesus taught, "Resist not evil...love your enemies...do good to those who hate you, and bless those that persecute [pursue you with violence]." [Matthew 5:38-48] True grace will lead men to turn the other cheek, to forgive, to return evil with good, to leave the military, to pray for those who hate them.
If a man believes he is saved by grace and is laying up treasures on earth he is deceived. [Luke 12:16-21] True grace leads a man to deny himself, to be rich towards God, and to love his neighbor as himself.
Many believe Jesus died for their sins, few believe Jesus.
Many believe One died in their place, but they do not believe the One Who died.
The true grace of God will lead a man to deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Jesus. It teaches men to "Enter in at the straight gate: For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." [Matthew 7:13-14]
Some choose their road and accepts its destination, others choose their destination and accept the road.
If the road your on leads you to divorce, another marriage, war, lawsuits, immodest clothing, pursuing wealth, self indulgence, gluttony, swearing oaths, or any other heathen practice, your destination is the burning lake and no amount of grace will save you from that end. False grace will justify those who do these things, and give them a false peace. True grace will teach men to forsake these things and to follow Jesus.
The only way to avoid the condemnation of eternal fire is to get off that road and follow Jesus.
You said, "The more we know Jesus, the less we will sin." Sin is a choice, not a result from a lack of special knowledge.
The way knowing Jesus will cause us to sin less is obeying the words He has spoken, for He said they will judge us on the last day [John 12:48].
You said, "Our own righteousness is as filthy rags." God never said that about His saints. He called His saints righteous, not because they knew what was right, but because they did what was right. All throughout the Old and New Testaments God calls men holy, perfect, righteous, good, honest, etc. The Prophet Isaiah was interceding for a debauched nation who forsook God and worshiped demons. However, though these men did what was right, and were called by God good, honest, faithful, and perfect, they did not trust in themselves, but rather felt undone in the presence of the Lord.
Great Post! King is utterly refuted and a proven false teacher. His "grace" message is Satanic.
Boom shakalaka boom. Love you guys
1 john 3 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED / IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS / GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION. written by Mark Rahe43920
2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV 3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I will declare the truth that when we "Believe the Gospel" we are Saved Forever.
The "Gospel" or Good News" of our "Salvation" is "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." Now let me back that up with scripture..
.> THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION >
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
> 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the "Gospel" which I preached unto you, which also ye have "RECEIVED" , and wherein ye "STAND" ;
2 By which also ye are "SAVED" , IF ye KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also "RECEIVED" , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: >
When we Receive the "Gospel" and "Believed it" we are "Sealed" with the "Promised Holy Spirit".
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye "HEARD the Word of Truth", the "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION": in whom also after that ye "BELIEVED" , ye were "SEALED" with that "Holy Spirit of Promise".
How long are we sealed with the Holy Spirit?
Ephesians 4:30 KJV 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "SEALED" unto the "DAY OF REDEMPTION". >
> We are Saved the same way Abraham was also Saved. >
By FAITH / BELIEVING.
Romans 4:3 KJV 3 For what saith the scripture ? Abraham "Believed" God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
When we "Believe the Gospel", we receive "IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS" to our account. Scriptural proof...
> Speaking of Abraham and all who simply "Believe" in the "Gospel of our Salvation">
Romans 4:17-25 KJV 17 (As it is written , I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed , even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were .
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken , So shall thy seed be .
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead , when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the "Promise of God" through "UNBELIEF"; but was strong in "FAITH", giving glory to God;
21 And being FULLY PERSUADED that, what He had Promised , He was able also to perform .
22 And THEREFORE it was "IMPUTED" to him for "RIGHTEOUSNESS".
23 Now it was NOT WRITTEN FOR HIS SAKE ALONE, that it was "IMPUTED" to him;
24 But for US also, to whom it shall be "IMPUTED" , IF WE BELIEVE ON HIM that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. >
Conclusion; The moment we Hear and Believe and Receive Personally the "Gospel of our Salvation" we are "Sealed with the Holy Spirit" and "IMPUTED" the Righteousness of God unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION.
That means " ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" Therefore after we Receive our Salvation, Imputed unto us for Believing the Gospel, recognizing our sinner-ship before God and placing our Faith in Christs, Death for our Sins, and that he was buried and Rose again three days later for our JUSTIFICATION we are "IMPUTED" with "His Righteousness" thus we DO have a licence to sin in Human terms but NOT PERMISSION to sin. That is why Paul says in Romans 6:1-2 KJV 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ? 2 God forbid . How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?
Colossians 2:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses ( Past, Present, and Future sin's );
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Romans 5:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law.
Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US.
9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have NOW received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the GIFT: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which RECEIVE abundance of GRACE and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might GRACE reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
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+Mark .Rahe43920 Isnt the truth so simple its amazing, The false gospels seem so complicated your forgiven but not forgiven in that way , your sanctified but not sanctified .... What!?!?
+Mark .Rahe43920 Isnt the truth so simple its amazing, The false gospels seem so complicated your forgiven but not forgiven in that way , your sanctified but not sanctified .... What!?!?
Jesus will not get on the cross again!
He paid the price. He did His priestly duties.
You are forgiven, not being forgiven. It is finished.
Says the person who lives in sin. This is the case almost without fail. That is very telling.
@@nonameyet9165 are you without sin?
But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! - Revelation 3:16
I too and recently have felt utterly wicked through my actions, saying I truly deserve the Lake of Fire.
Wait, I am putting myself, my own obedience to the Law written on my heart over Jesus and His perfect obedience to the Law of the Old Covenant.
Wow, that is wrong!
I feel we sometimes overlook exactly what God has done for us.
We have the Holy Spirit to help us to live righteously.
Let us never forget and let the Holy Spirit remind us, we are indeed righteous, fully justified in Christ.
The fine, punishment has already been dealt with.
First, realize your position with God. He sees you as He sees His Son.
Realize that when you are trying to walk in the Spirit.
If the flesh wins out from time to time, chill, you are still righteous.
Is God a party to falsehood? How can he see you as righteous if you are in fact not rightous? I think the Bible is clear that you need to do more then just acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God died and rose again to be saved, you need to obey the words of Jesus and forgive your enemies.
a person, living soul, is body and spirit.
We were dead in our sins due to our dead spirit, born of Adam.
We have a new spirit of Christ. This part of us cannot sin!!!!!!!!
It has no sin nature. It is born of God. God does not sin.
only the flesh can sin.
C'mon.
And this flesh will rot and we will be given a glorified body to match our new spirit, being utterly incapable of sin, zero sin nature, fully reborn of God
That's classic gnostic teaching-that nothing the body does can defile the flesh. Scripture says otherwise, saying that he who commits fornication sins AGAINST his own body-thereby showing it is HE, not his body, doing the sinning. John's little epistles were actually written against this teaching. So adamant was he against it that he refused to be found in the same company with those who taught it according to Christian tradition.
It also contradicts Christ Who taught that out of the HEART-not the BODY-flow all manner of evil.
I'd suggest you look to your heart; it has deceived you.
If you're replying to my comment, please give a few Scripture verses please.
Jesus may be speaking of wicked desires coming from the heart/ spirit...prior to being reborn.
Matthew 15:18-19
Maybe you support GotQuestions.org
Paul says "having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?"
Galatians 3:3
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing"
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Romans 7:24
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Galatians 5:16-17
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"
John 1:3:9
"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
John 3:4-6
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
1 Corinthians 15:50
This spirit will be placed into a glorified, spiritual body on the last day. God brings the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him at the Resurrection
1 Thessalonians 4:14
When Christ died, He committed His Spirit to the Father.
Luke 23:46
Psalm 31:5
The Bible says the human soul is body and spirit.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7
Hebrews 12:9
The body returns to the Earth (under Sin- all of creation groans) and the spirit returns to the One who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
James 2:26
God has given me new desires. I strive to walk by the spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh, of this fallen world. I still fall short. I still sin, yet God remembers them no more. My identity has changed. I am now a child of God.
We are judged by what we do in this body (this life), good or bad. Yet, having died and resurrected spiritually into Christ, I am in Him and He is in me. I am seated in heavenly places.
My salvation is by grace through faith in Him, His finished work.
Anything not of faith is sin. I have faith in Jesus and the promise.
I may not have perfect theology. I don't believe in a pretribulation rapture. I hope I am wrong.
Yet I believe in the simple Gospel message of grace, God's unmerited mercy on those who do the Father's will, believe in the Son.
Let me continue to grow and be guided by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1-10
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psalm 103:8-12
Psalm 136
Don't trust in my words...or any for that matter.
Read God's Word with the power of the Holy Spirit and trust in the Word made flesh. Call on Him for mercy. Jesus is the Bread of Life. He is mighty to save.
what is grace?
a free gift of God of which you do not deserve.
God gives it through the redemptive work of His Son.
To remit sin, blood is required.
I am all for trying to walk in the spirit and therefore sinning less.
Yet all are sinners. No attempt at perfect obedience will lead you to the Father.
His will is you believe in His Son who was perfectly obedient to the Law of the Father.
He died to save. True, He has pearls of divine teachings on how to live in this fallen world.
Yet, it is not you that saves, but Him. All from Adam on must rely on the blood of Jesus and His mercy.
Let God give you new desires when you receive your new heart/ spirit. Relax in the finished work of Jesus. He has overcome death. Death is the result of sin.
In Him, no 2nd Death, no matter how wretched you think you are.
But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! - Revelation 3:16
.neither are correct...see Angels on Assignment...Christ's blood covers us who trust in the blood of Jesus and walk in willingness, but idolatry and rebellion are not covered.. one needs repent and return under the atonement. Once one is covered God remembers sin no more. This is the clear teaching of Numbers 23-24 and affirmed in 1 Corinthians 10.
There are over 600 commands under Moses, given to fallen beings to show their fallen state. Under grace we have over 1000 commands given to Christians who walk by the Spirit in the new Testament. Of coarse we do them through and because of the one command of love, and as we walk in the Spirit. There is one command for you, to walk in the Spirit. Yes we are in a relationship, but it is with our Master, Lord, Commander, leader and God. Are these hyper graces reading the same bible. Please point out ten verses in the bible, new or old, saved or unsaved that don't deal with mans sin on some level. Jesus commands the church to repent. Our sins and the sins of the world have been paid for. But unbelievers must submit to Jesus. And so called followers must admit they sin repent, and ask forgiveness to apply it. The blood it not just a blob of ooze that automatically works because you think it does. Then the power is in your mind not the blood. You must stay under the shower of his blood. One can work in the soap factory and never wash. I think these hyper graces must forget how to wash
Paul taught in Galatians the law 430 years later cannot dissinherit the heirs obeidiance is shut out it's the blood of Christ and our Faith without obeidiance or works the gift of rightousness Romans 5 18 20 sorry docter brown you loose
Wow this hyper grace guy is so far off in his understanding of the scripture another reason I took my family out of what people call the church.He is trying to understand Jesus from his flesh and not from the Holy Spirit, in his way of thinking it completely cancels the power over sin that Jesus died for and gives all who surrender to Him, or else His death was meaningless
Have these hyper grace people read the first letter of John? Dr. Brown just made me not want to read Kings book. Brown clearly won this debate.
I have to say I disagree with you.
Being someone that believes that God persevere His children because God lives in us we can not be lost.
We read in Hebrews that
"Nothing unclean enters heaven" If Hebrews 6:4-6 for example applies to our salvation then if we ever sin after being saved we’ll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. The New Covenant would be worse than the Old, not better. They were condemned for their actions. According to Matt. 5, we’d be condemned for our thoughts. They couldn’t murder. We couldn’t even be angry. They couldn’t commit adultery. We couldn’t even have a lustful thought. Think of it. No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? Did God become man and die the most painful death ever devised only to put His children into an even more untenable position than before? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? I can’t believe so.
God took off external pressure and external restraint and put it all internally in our spirit. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” - 2 TIMOTHY 1:7 We don‟t have a spirit that is moved by fear but a spirit that is moved by his power, his love and his perfect mind.
Believe it or not, a born-again Christian doesn‟t want to just go out and sin. They actually want to get rid of sin. Their new nature struggles with sin and doesn‟t like sin. The flesh and mind still like sin but your spirit doesn‟t! Sin is foreign to our spirit.
The more we live by our spirit the more we can overcome sin. If we are putting “have-to‟s” on people then we are not teaching them how to walk by the Spirit but by external rules and laws that are not based on faith and which lock up the new nature.
this really helped me maybe this was helpful for you too.
God Bless.
you opened my eyes
Too many breaks lol .
It's not about hyper grace its grace
It is hard to listen to this false grace nonsense by King. He doesn't know the Bible, just like every other false grace teacher