This was a very good debate, indeed. I'm a former Christian (now atheist) and I love Dr. Ehrman. Keep reading the Bible, and keep asking questions. I could get 3 Christians in a room with Dr. Brown, and we'd get 4 completely different interpretations of what he said. Including Dr. Brown's view of hell. That's proof, right there, that there is no consistency in the poorly cobbled together books of the Bible.
Asking questions and reading the Bible is how I became a Christian. I like Dr. Erhman, but I've been a Christian for less than a year and found several holes in his arguments/reasoning. Not saying he's not intelligent or genuine, but he doesn't convince me of his view. I'm not sure that Christians disagreeing about interpretations of the Bible is proof of anything, except that certain parts of the Bible can be difficult to understand sometimes. I often agree with Dr. Brown, but I allow that both he and I could be wrong on some things. Good luck to you.
Veronica McDonald Hey, Veronica. Thx 4 the reply. Its funny, cuz actually reading the whole Bible is what helped make me an atheist. Lol. You've really read it all? The begats, and everything? That's rare. Most religious people dont even read their holy books. Pretty impressive, good for you. The fact that LOTS of Christians disagree on interpretation, at least means that, like you said, God is a little unclear about His instructions. Google how many Christian denominations there are. They cant all be right, because the interpretations contradict each other. But, they CAN all be wrong. And, I can be wrong, you can be wrong, both debaters can be wrong, all other religions, past and present, can be wrong. You can walk up to ANY believer of ANY religion, and they'll give you their "testimony" and point to the parts in their book of fairytales to justify their beliefs. There's got to be a way to figure out what's really true. For example, do you think Muslims are going to heaven?
Congratulations Dr Brown. Your arguments regarding suffering from God's perspective were the best compilation I've heard and your articulation was amazing. Well done! Classic!
Both debated passionately Dr Ehrman offered better logic and reasoning while Dr Brown did not adequately address the inconsistencies of the literature.
That debate is eternal, it will last untill no human exists, I'm a christian, from what I saw is Dr. Bart looks at the person who died from the punishement of God and he feel a deep pain about it, he is not wrong in that, his pain is real. We as christians we accepted that God was preparing the human race for something great, and wd have hope for the second coming so we found the peace Dr. Bart cannot find. Let us pray that every suffering sowl will find peace.
I understand a lot of Dr. Ehrman's points and agree with some of them, but Dr. Brown's responses were insightful and helpful, as I struggle at the moment with some of Dr. Ehrman's issues regarding the Bible.
Dr. Brown's responses are just red meat to the base.. He just starts preaching and appealing to the Christians in the room once the debate gets too much.. With Bart it's rationality and Faith while with Dr Brown it's only Faith in God..
Bart was a fundamentalist evangelist. He is a professor in the New Testament, he is a lecturer at a famous christian college, he can quote the bible in and out etc.. There must be something not adding up and going only on Faith is not enough for him..
@@theaviationist.5719 Well, he's making a fortune as an atheist now and can sin(like adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc., ...) in other ways he wants without caring anymore. I'd never heard of him before he was an atheist. He's giddy with wealth, silly and who knows what else. Atheists made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
A real friend is one who walks in, when the rest of the world walks out. Bart reminds me of someone who didn't get an experience from God which he expected, like those around him. Making him bitter and resentful, towards the God of the bible, he had come to believe did not exist due to his lack of personal experience. He knows Job believed in life after death, (Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:) but only quotes verses from Job, that appear if taken alone and out of context, that Job did not believe in life after death.
Consider the 3 following situations where the same action (killing a living creature) is performed: First, if you kill an ant, is this a horrible crime? No probably not. If, however, you kill a family's beloved pet dog, is this worse than killing the ant, or the same? It is worse! What about killing a human being - is that worse than killing the dog? Yes! Much worse. So we can see that the same action - killing a living creature - escalates in severity based upon whom it's perpetrated against. Now let's say you commit a sin against an infinite, loving God who created you and gave you life? That would be an infinitely evil action because of WHO God is. An infinitely evil action DEMANDS an infinite justice. That's exactly what Hell and the Lake of Fire are... they are the only justice which matches the severity of the crime. Rom 3:10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. Psa 53:2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. 3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. The Bible makes the case that none are righteous, there are none who are innocent. The blame for suffering rests in MAN and man alone. God gave US the choice. He told us that sin would result in death. We were tempted with the knowledge of good and evil... think about that. Essentially, it was utopia, no death, no suffering. Adam didn't know what death or suffering was... how could he understand he had never experienced them. Yet he foolishly chose death for all of us. Now that we understand the difference between good and evil we cry out for God to save us from our foolishness.
@@brahilly we corrupted the original design with sin. Justice demands a punishment. The punishment for sin is death. The thing that happened between creation and God giving life is Adam sinned & obtained a judgement of death.
@@brahilly I interpreted your question to mean “how does God create you with life & then still need to give you life” asking how you lost the first life. Can you explain what your question means?
Poor Bart, he has no idea how colossal the divide is between fallen humanity and the holiness of God. It's unfathomable. The suffering humanity endures is within a 90-year lifetime (on average), but our redemption and eternal life in heaven -- though our Lord Jesus Christ -- is, just that, eternal. God's justice is absolutely perfect. "Blessed are those who have ears to hear." Take care, everyone.
Luke vh 17 vs 2.Hope bart repents.I've read his books.His anger says it all!He cherry picks a couple of things and gets marginal believers behind him.He has chosen money over God(Matthew 6 vs 24)!It's obvious he loves one and hates the other.His title says head of religious instruction yet he doesn't believe in God and calls himself a historian.So he takes a paycheck for something he doesn't even believe!!Like Mike Brown,I was a athiest/addict/criminal.Jesus came to me at my bottom.I have been clean and sober for 27 yrs since that day.If there is No God there is no good!!There is a God!That's why we can define good and evil!!Thank you Mike for being a gentle man of God.(1peter 3vs15).You rock.Keep telling the truth!!Keep praying for bart.Love and blessings to all!!
Dr. Ehrman feels that God should intervene NOW in human suffering. However, what could that mean in terms of loved ones who are in rebellion to God? I would rather trust in God's timing. One of my most passionate prayers is for the salvation of my loved ones. In order to stop suffering, God would have to necessarily wipe out those who inflict suffering on others. Dr. Ehrman seems to lay "all" suffering at the feet of God. People also cause suffering. Simply gossiping about another person is inflicting suffering on another human being. In my own life, personal suffering changes the direction I am heading. Ultimately I want to end up with God, not apart from Him, and if suffering in my own personal life helps to that end, I can't deride God for allowing it.
Innocent children have been dying from epidemics, famine, diseases, earth quakes, floods etc for centuries which has always been non of their own sinning or doing, what wrong have these innocent angels done to deserve all this? I think God should intervene and save innocent children at every opportunity. And why does he even allow all this suffering of innocent children in the first place?
Thanks for responding. This goes back to the age old question. Why aren't we all just buck naked running around carefree in the Garden of Eden? The reason, I believe, are our Parents' choices that have affected mankind, resulting in a disconnect from the source of the Good Life. Does God ever intervene? I believe he does. Does He ALWAYS intervene? No. If He always intervened in this dispensation, that would be the RULE WITH IRON (often referred to as the Millennial Reign of Christ). Is that day coming? I believe so. And the results according to scriptural prophecy is that people will nonetheless rebel even against this authority. Does man desire to be God?
Sad: Bart wants Michael to "come to see the truth" but according to Bart's own belief he is actually condemning him (there would be nothing for Dr Brown to look forward to), whereas Michael prayed Bart would return to "know (Gods) beauty again on a personal level" (giving Dr Ehrman something to look forward to).
Bart knows he takes verses out of context to use them to support his position, it is glaringly obvious. He also takes great liberty at interpreting scripture to support his heretical views, interpretations that many believers would say are false. I wonder if he was really ever a Biblical Christian, or more probably just a cultural, or traditional Christian, which makes up probably 70% of people who call themselves Christians. I have always wondered too , when he was a participant in Christian circles, if he would have called himself a Calvinist. If I were to guess, I bet he would say he believed he was a 5 point Calvinist, anyone know if he has ever stated that?
Some fundamentalist Christians leave fundamentalism...I've never questioned his story, I guess he could have made some of it up, but I think it's a fairly common occurrence. It doesn't seem unlikely that there would be a fundamentalist who becomes a liberal Christian, then eventually a non Christian, and writes books, combating some of his former beliefs.
Bart knows more about the bible, it's origins etc than you do. The guy is a professor / DR in the New Testament, he is a Theology lecturer at University for more than 20 years. May be just having faith is not enough for him, he needs evidence and no contradictions..
Read verse 13 Bart! Job 14:13 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Luke 23:42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. I probably jumped the gun here because I'm paused at 1:04:29 but I always read along when people quote scripture... how can Bart come to his conclusion without reading the verses surrounding the one he's quoting?? ugghhhh.. ok p.s. brother Michael you are such a blessing. May God continually bless you.
I've never cared for nor agreed with Ehrman's errant teachings and spasmodic thinking. In this debate, he resorted to his typical tactic, in his usual ineloquent fashion; of misrepresenting what is actually written in the scriptures. He questions God like a spoiled child who is angry about not being able to have his way. Dr. Brown handles this in his usual fashion. That is to say with thorough explanation, in the spirit of excellence.
The Aviationist. How's life going two years after this comment of yours? Prove Ehrman wrong? How about reading "Johannine world" first? Don't trust Ehrman just because HE says so on some topic.
According to the Christian theology.. But Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and even Atheists all think otherwise.. This is the problem with being brainwashed / indoctrinated zombies, we are so myopic in our faiths, we think we are the right ones. What is the probability that you are a Christian and that was born in a Christian country where your family or society indoctrinated you from a young age as a christian? Same with a Muslim in a Muslim society / family, same as a Hindu in India, same as a Buddhist in China etc.. lol
Bwoi Meemz You can be Jew because you are born Jew and don't even have to be religious You can be Hindu because study it and like it or born in it same think goes for Buddhist You can be Muslim because you read Koran and you like what's in it ' But what really make men Christian ? Reading of Bible and liking It ? Yes to some point ? Going to church ? No !!! This will not make you Christian. So what will? Yes reading Bible and having real relationship with God as real as with someone you rally know but first you have to get Holly Spirit,not doctrine of some church or pastor or denomination. Jesus said "no one will understand Heaven unless he will be born again"
You can play all the mental gymnastics you like, but it is 90% more likely that a child born in the US, Europe or Australia is more likely to turn out as a christian than a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist etc.. It is just simple logic, not rocket science.. You can quote what Jesus said but it means nothing to a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc, those religions will also tell you that their way is the right way to you closer to God and heaven etc.. A simple question, how was the environment you grew up in, was it 90% more christian, 90% more Muslim, 90% more Hindu or Buddhist? I put my money on it having been 90% more christian hence why you had a 90% more chance to turn out as a christian than a Hindu or anything else.. That is why 90% of Christian are in christian majority countries, 90% of Muslims are in Muslim majority countries, 90% of Hindus are in Hindu majority countries, Buddhists are in Buddhist majority countries.. Why do you think the US, Europe or Australia are more christian? It's because of the early Europeans that embraced a new religion from the middle east, so all generations since then were indoctrinated or brainwashed with it. Same as Muslim in the Middle East. Hindus and Buddhists in Asia etc.. It's the environment one grows up in that is more likely to influence them. Why do you think Europeans have different traditions to Africa etc? It's all because of culture and environment both have grown up in..
Bwoi Meemz Exactly I was born in Catholic family so automatically I "was" Catholic brainwashed by Roman doctrine I I did like it until I was about 24 years old, then came many questions and doubts etc and Roman church become like dry well and I left it but in ma heart I knew there is a God , Then I went to born again Christians church and I become born again Christian Really ????? No no no , I did not know what is really born again until one day Spirit of God enter my body and in changed me forever, since this moment i become different person Not by my work but by Christ In split second I was cured from alcoholism and many other things So I do understand what person like you may think because I was like you And you can do any gymnastics possible to try to understand what I'm talking about but if you don't receive Spirit on your own,you will never understand what I'm talking about
1:28:47 notice Dr. Brown gives credit to "people of faith" for being charitable, but he wont put blame on them for molestation, or corruption, or for being science deniers. That's called cherry picking.
From the AskDrBrown team: Thanks for asking! It was a slip of the tongue. Dr. Brown meant to say that, at that time, they lived in a small rental home.
Proverbs 10;3 - [Speaks of a famished SOUL.] "The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked." (Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone but by the Word of God; He also said eat:this is my body/ drink:this is my blood - Mat4;4; Mat 26;26-28) Proverbs 12;21 - [Define EVIL & MISCHIEF in context of original language] "There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief." Evil = אָ֑וֶן = ’ā-wen: iniquity, misery, sorrow, trouble.... if read as iniquity then it says that there is no separation from God that happens to the just. Mischief = רָע = ra': unhappiness, misery.... Ecclesiastes 7;15 - [Why would God cause the righteous to sleep?] "All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness." Consideration 1 = Isaiah 57;1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. Consideration 2 = Matthew 9;12-13 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. I want to perish in the righteousness God has granted me through Christ... just saying. I wouldn't want to perish wicked. After death comes judgement. I think that because God is unwilling that any should perish, and out of love, he gives us every opportunity imaginable to repent so that on our day of judgement we are without excuse. God is blameless. Ecclesiastes 8;14 [Kinda like Jesus?] "There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity." Jesus was wounded for OUR transgressions. He was bruised for OUR iniquity. Though he himself was blameless and perfectly righteous. What manner of love is this??? Isaiah 53;6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Read 1 Peter 2:18-24 [there is no reward for enduring a punishment you deserve....but there is grace for grace] Romans 3;10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Interestingly enough Christianity, if true, rather than offering "cheap hope" offers the most costly hope ever bestowed on man in any fictional/nonfictional narrative ever. At this point the only way it can be called cheap, from the opposition, is if it's not true, which during the debate is begging the question or strawmanning depending on the context he's using it.
Dr. Brown is very good. And uses some excellent strategies. But it becomes very difficult to defend what is indefensible. Eternal suffering for being born in the wrong religion (the overwhelming majority of people die in the religion of their culture)? It is very difficult to defend...
I've watched this debate several times now - and speaking from an unbiased perspective - even though I don't think one can really "win" a debate, but rather present a better argument; I would have to be in favor of Dr. Ehrman. He seemed to engage in more of a debatable manner while Dr. brown spoke as if he was on a pulpit In Sunday service. Maybe others feel different, but this is my own subjective opinion.
Dr. Brown like all the Christian apologetic tend to always end up preaching and throwing red meat to their base once the debate seems to be getting away from them..
Doc B would it be better to ask the agnostic on what basis do you make good judgments , in some cultures people eat with their neighbors in others they eat their neighbors which one is good
The dad and the son, having sex with the same women. This will call God to judge. Amos 2:6-7 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes; That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
I feel sorry for ehrman. he believes in his own mind and finite understanding. hes made self god. he leans on his own understanding. every man at his very best state is altogether worthless, even lighter than worthless.
This is all I think of this guy Hebrews 6:4-10 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And also the questions Job had applies to him. God bless you Dr Michael Brown. Great debate, you killed it.
Suffering in its most succinct form: the parents who lost their children when Herod massacred them. How wise were the wise men when they actually allowed an internationally known thug named Herod to find out they were seeking "The King of the Jews" for they said they had seen his star in the east and were come to worship him. They could have went discretely and secretly to Jewish leaders saying they wanted to keep this info away from Herod. God warned Joseph to flee into Egypt that Herod sought to kill Jesus, but god did not warn all the other parents and their children were murdered. God could see this - being omniscient and all - that this was going to happen way ahead of time and could have decided it would not happen and thus not give this prophecy to an OT figure to prophecy about just as he told Isaiah that King Hezekiah would die, Isaiah told this to this king and then God changed his mind about Hezekiah dying. This is all true unless all humanity'[s future is all truly set in stone and God knew that Hezekiah would pray and that He would hear his prayer and knew he would change his mind, tell Isaiah that he had changed his mind and knew all of this before time even began.
an example of a righteous action that a believer in God could perform that one who does not believe could not. first, we must define a righteous action. if we define it according to the standard of the world, then there is very obviously no righteousness that a believer could do that an unbeliever cannot. and of course, the atheist would object to righteousness defined on biblical grounds, where the mere acceptance of God's grace is a righteous action in of itself and is only possible to those who believe. so the question is rigged from the beginning.
I do not think he was. He was a professor who now makes gross generalizations? He doesn't even understand basic scriptures and is misquoting " some( not some of you) standing here ... and this generation will not taste death ...". Should Dr. Brown be stripped naked and starve or be accused as a hypocrite because he has not personally fed every starving child on earth? Should Bart accuse him--and he did-- when , as an atheist-- Bart does have to care--at all? I'm not saying he does not make good points because he does.
BTW, Haiti is one of the most evil places on earth. They do not follow Christ and never repent, never change. They fake it to get money and go straight back to total sin, voodoo and all manner of barbarism.
StoneColdTruth Because God knows He can't replace kids you love once with new kids , Yes God give Job twice of animals and wealth but not twice of kids , God "store" Jobs kids in Heaven and in right time He give them back to him. Just like God made Abraham I Sarah young again before she conceived Isaac. See in Bible how old was Sarah when King of Egypt realize how Beautiful she is and he want her for his wife Old woman wrinkled up from desert climate :)?
This was wonderful. What a great, passionate debate. I'm a former atheist (now Christian) and I love Dr. Brown :)
Awesome. God bless you...
This was a very good debate, indeed. I'm a former Christian (now atheist) and I love Dr. Ehrman. Keep reading the Bible, and keep asking questions. I could get 3 Christians in a room with Dr. Brown, and we'd get 4 completely different interpretations of what he said. Including Dr. Brown's view of hell. That's proof, right there, that there is no consistency in the poorly cobbled together books of the Bible.
Asking questions and reading the Bible is how I became a Christian. I like Dr. Erhman, but I've been a Christian for less than a year and found several holes in his arguments/reasoning. Not saying he's not intelligent or genuine, but he doesn't convince me of his view. I'm not sure that Christians disagreeing about interpretations of the Bible is proof of anything, except that certain parts of the Bible can be difficult to understand sometimes. I often agree with Dr. Brown, but I allow that both he and I could be wrong on some things. Good luck to you.
Veronica McDonald Hey, Veronica. Thx 4 the reply. Its funny, cuz actually reading the whole Bible is what helped make me an atheist. Lol. You've really read it all? The begats, and everything? That's rare. Most religious people dont even read their holy books. Pretty impressive, good for you. The fact that LOTS of Christians disagree on interpretation, at least means that, like you said, God is a little unclear about His instructions. Google how many Christian denominations there are. They cant all be right, because the interpretations contradict each other. But, they CAN all be wrong. And, I can be wrong, you can be wrong, both debaters can be wrong, all other religions, past and present, can be wrong. You can walk up to ANY believer of ANY religion, and they'll give you their "testimony" and point to the parts in their book of fairytales to justify their beliefs. There's got to be a way to figure out what's really true. For example, do you think Muslims are going to heaven?
The message of salvation is clear, and that is the most important thing.
Dr Brown is a true warrior. God bless you brother with long life to keep spreading this message!
Congratulations Dr Brown. Your arguments regarding suffering from God's perspective were the best compilation I've heard and your articulation was amazing. Well done! Classic!
Both debated passionately Dr Ehrman offered better logic and reasoning while Dr Brown did not adequately address the inconsistencies of the literature.
That debate is eternal, it will last untill no human exists, I'm a christian, from what I saw is Dr. Bart looks at the person who died from the punishement of God and he feel a deep pain about it, he is not wrong in that, his pain is real. We as christians we accepted that God was preparing the human race for something great, and wd have hope for the second coming so we found the peace Dr. Bart cannot find.
Let us pray that every suffering sowl will find peace.
I understand a lot of Dr. Ehrman's points and agree with some of them, but Dr. Brown's responses were insightful and helpful, as I struggle at the moment with some of Dr. Ehrman's issues regarding the Bible.
Dr. Brown's responses are just red meat to the base.. He just starts preaching and appealing to the Christians in the room once the debate gets too much.. With Bart it's rationality and Faith while with Dr Brown it's only Faith in God..
This is one of my favorite debates! A must see
same
Powerful sermon(yes) by Dr. Brown!
Pray for Bart
Why would I pray for a comic figure?
Okay, just a stupid joke. You're right -Pray for Dr. Ehrman.
Bart was a fundamentalist evangelist. He is a professor in the New Testament, he is a lecturer at a famous christian college, he can quote the bible in and out etc.. There must be something not adding up and going only on Faith is not enough for him..
@@theaviationist.5719 but holy sprite is out of his mind.
@@theaviationist.5719 Well, he's making a fortune as an atheist now and can sin(like adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc., ...) in other ways he wants without caring anymore. I'd never heard of him before he was an atheist. He's giddy with wealth, silly and who knows what else. Atheists made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
A real friend is one who walks in, when the rest of the world walks out. Bart reminds me of someone who didn't get an experience from God which he expected, like those around him. Making him bitter and resentful, towards the God of the bible, he had come to believe did not exist due to his lack of personal experience. He knows Job believed in life after death, (Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:) but only quotes verses from Job, that appear if taken alone and out of context, that Job did not believe in life after death.
shut up....
Have not watched it yet but absorbed work of both these men before finding this video. Let’s see how it goes
Consider the 3 following situations where the same action (killing a living creature) is performed: First, if you kill an ant, is this a horrible crime? No probably not. If, however, you kill a family's beloved pet dog, is this worse than killing the ant, or the same? It is worse! What about killing a human being - is that worse than killing the dog? Yes! Much worse. So we can see that the same action - killing a living creature - escalates in severity based upon whom it's perpetrated against. Now let's say you commit a sin against an infinite, loving God who created you and gave you life? That would be an infinitely evil action because of WHO God is. An infinitely evil action DEMANDS an infinite justice. That's exactly what Hell and the Lake of Fire are... they are the only justice which matches the severity of the crime.
Rom 3:10
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Psa 14:3
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Psa 53:2
God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
The Bible makes the case that none are righteous, there are none who are innocent. The blame for suffering rests in MAN and man alone. God gave US the choice. He told us that sin would result in death. We were tempted with the knowledge of good and evil... think about that. Essentially, it was utopia, no death, no suffering. Adam didn't know what death or suffering was... how could he understand he had never experienced them. Yet he foolishly chose death for all of us. Now that we understand the difference between good and evil we cry out for God to save us from our foolishness.
Ben Guptill Well said brother.... people don't respect and follow God and then question how can a loving God allow suffering and create hell
How does God create you then "give you life" ?
@@brahilly we corrupted the original design with sin. Justice demands a punishment. The punishment for sin is death. The thing that happened between creation and God giving life is Adam sinned & obtained a judgement of death.
@@bguptill
OK, but what about my question?
@@brahilly I interpreted your question to mean “how does God create you with life & then still need to give you life” asking how you lost the first life. Can you explain what your question means?
Poor Bart, he has no idea how colossal the divide is between fallen humanity and the holiness of God. It's unfathomable. The suffering humanity endures is within a 90-year lifetime (on average), but our redemption and eternal life in heaven -- though our Lord Jesus Christ -- is, just that, eternal. God's justice is absolutely perfect. "Blessed are those who have ears to hear." Take care, everyone.
Luke vh 17 vs 2.Hope bart repents.I've read his books.His anger says it all!He cherry picks a couple of things and gets marginal believers behind him.He has chosen money over God(Matthew 6 vs 24)!It's obvious he loves one and hates the other.His title says head of religious instruction yet he doesn't believe in God and calls himself a historian.So he takes a paycheck for something he doesn't even believe!!Like Mike Brown,I was a athiest/addict/criminal.Jesus came to me at my bottom.I have been clean and sober for 27 yrs since that day.If there is No God there is no good!!There is a God!That's why we can define good and evil!!Thank you Mike for being a gentle man of God.(1peter 3vs15).You rock.Keep telling the truth!!Keep praying for bart.Love and blessings to all!!
Dr. Ehrman feels that God should intervene NOW in human suffering. However, what could that mean in terms of loved ones who are in rebellion to God? I would rather trust in God's timing. One of my most passionate prayers is for the salvation of my loved ones. In order to stop suffering, God would have to necessarily wipe out those who inflict suffering on others. Dr. Ehrman seems to lay "all" suffering at the feet of God. People also cause suffering. Simply gossiping about another person is inflicting suffering on another human being. In my own life, personal suffering changes the direction I am heading. Ultimately I want to end up with God, not apart from Him, and if suffering in my own personal life helps to that end, I can't deride God for allowing it.
Innocent children have been dying from epidemics, famine, diseases, earth quakes, floods etc for centuries which has always been non of their own sinning or doing, what wrong have these innocent angels done to deserve all this? I think God should intervene and save innocent children at every opportunity. And why does he even allow all this suffering of innocent children in the first place?
Thanks for responding. This goes back to the age old question. Why aren't we all just buck naked running around carefree in the Garden of Eden? The reason, I believe, are our Parents' choices that have affected mankind, resulting in a disconnect from the source of the Good Life. Does God ever intervene? I believe he does. Does He ALWAYS intervene? No. If He always intervened in this dispensation, that would be the RULE WITH IRON (often referred to as the Millennial Reign of Christ). Is that day coming? I believe so. And the results according to scriptural prophecy is that people will nonetheless rebel even against this authority. Does man desire to be God?
Would have loved to have seen this...Really enjoy Dr. Brown, seems like a very kind and caring man...
Sad: Bart wants Michael to "come to see the truth" but according to Bart's own belief he is actually condemning him (there would be nothing for Dr Brown to look forward to), whereas Michael prayed Bart would return to "know (Gods) beauty again on a personal level" (giving Dr Ehrman something to look forward to).
great debate!! personally thought that dr. brown's performance was top notch
Wow Dr. Brown this is awesome.
Bart knows he takes verses out of context to use them to support his position, it is glaringly obvious. He also takes great liberty at interpreting scripture to support his heretical views, interpretations that many believers would say are false. I wonder if he was really ever a Biblical Christian, or more probably just a cultural, or traditional Christian, which makes up probably 70% of people who call themselves Christians. I have always wondered too , when he was a participant in Christian circles, if he would have called himself a Calvinist. If I were to guess, I bet he would say he believed he was a 5 point Calvinist, anyone know if he has ever stated that?
Some fundamentalist Christians leave fundamentalism...I've never questioned his story, I guess he could have made some of it up, but I think it's a fairly common occurrence. It doesn't seem unlikely that there would be a fundamentalist who becomes a liberal Christian, then eventually a non Christian, and writes books, combating some of his former beliefs.
Bart knows more about the bible, it's origins etc than you do. The guy is a professor / DR in the New Testament, he is a Theology lecturer at University for more than 20 years. May be just having faith is not enough for him, he needs evidence and no contradictions..
Read verse 13 Bart!
Job 14:13
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I probably jumped the gun here because I'm paused at 1:04:29 but I always read along when people quote scripture... how can Bart come to his conclusion without reading the verses surrounding the one he's quoting?? ugghhhh.. ok
p.s. brother Michael you are such a blessing. May God continually bless you.
I've never cared for nor agreed with Ehrman's errant teachings and spasmodic thinking. In this debate, he resorted to his typical tactic, in his usual ineloquent fashion; of misrepresenting what is actually written in the scriptures. He questions God like a spoiled child who is angry about not being able to have his way. Dr. Brown handles this in his usual fashion. That is to say with thorough explanation, in the spirit of excellence.
Prove him wrong.. You are just a brainwashed / indoctrinated person. That is it, everything is to do with Faith and no rationality..
The Aviationist.
How's life going two years after this comment of yours?
Prove Ehrman wrong? How about reading "Johannine world" first? Don't trust Ehrman just because HE says so on some topic.
"No men will understand Gods Word unless Spirit of God is in the men"
Amen
According to the Christian theology.. But Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and even Atheists all think otherwise.. This is the problem with being brainwashed / indoctrinated zombies, we are so myopic in our faiths, we think we are the right ones. What is the probability that you are a Christian and that was born in a Christian country where your family or society indoctrinated you from a young age as a christian? Same with a Muslim in a Muslim society / family, same as a Hindu in India, same as a Buddhist in China etc.. lol
Bwoi Meemz
You can be Jew because you are born Jew and don't even have to be religious
You can be Hindu because study it and like it or born in it same think goes for Buddhist
You can be Muslim because you read Koran and you like what's in it '
But what really make men Christian ? Reading of Bible and liking It ? Yes to some point ? Going to church ? No !!! This will not make you Christian.
So what will?
Yes reading Bible and having real relationship with God as real as with someone you rally know but first you have to get Holly Spirit,not doctrine of some church or pastor or denomination.
Jesus said "no one will understand Heaven unless he will be born again"
You can play all the mental gymnastics you like, but it is 90% more likely that a child born in the US, Europe or Australia is more likely to turn out as a christian than a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist etc.. It is just simple logic, not rocket science.. You can quote what Jesus said but it means nothing to a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc, those religions will also tell you that their way is the right way to you closer to God and heaven etc..
A simple question, how was the environment you grew up in, was it 90% more christian, 90% more Muslim, 90% more Hindu or Buddhist? I put my money on it having been 90% more christian hence why you had a 90% more chance to turn out as a christian than a Hindu or anything else.. That is why 90% of Christian are in christian majority countries, 90% of Muslims are in Muslim majority countries, 90% of Hindus are in Hindu majority countries, Buddhists are in Buddhist majority countries.. Why do you think the US, Europe or Australia are more christian? It's because of the early Europeans that embraced a new religion from the middle east, so all generations since then were indoctrinated or brainwashed with it. Same as Muslim in the Middle East. Hindus and Buddhists in Asia etc.. It's the environment one grows up in that is more likely to influence them. Why do you think Europeans have different traditions to Africa etc? It's all because of culture and environment both have grown up in..
Bwoi Meemz
Exactly
I was born in Catholic family so automatically I "was" Catholic brainwashed by Roman doctrine I I did like it until I was about 24 years old, then came many questions and doubts etc and Roman church become like dry well and I left it but in ma heart I knew there is a God ,
Then I went to born again Christians church and I become born again Christian
Really ?????
No no no , I did not know what is really born again until one day Spirit of God enter my body and in changed me forever, since this moment i become different person
Not by my work but by Christ
In split second I was cured from alcoholism and many other things
So I do understand what person like you may think because I was like you
And you can do any gymnastics possible to try to understand what I'm talking about but if you don't receive Spirit on your own,you will never understand what I'm talking about
Wow, powerful Dr. Brown!
The Real Kosher Jesus vs How Jesus became God. Amazing! Thanks for posting Dr. Brown.
I see that you got all the answers. Hey wise guy, those are titles of books by each speaker here.
1:28:47 notice Dr. Brown gives credit to "people of faith" for being charitable, but he wont put blame on them for molestation, or corruption, or for being science deniers. That's called cherry picking.
Nice content!
About 1:34:50 Dr Brown says that he and his wife live in a rental car. Is he essentially homeless? Honest question.
From the AskDrBrown team: Thanks for asking! It was a slip of the tongue. Dr. Brown meant to say that, at that time, they lived in a small rental home.
Proverbs 10;3 - [Speaks of a famished SOUL.]
"The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked."
(Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone but by the Word of God; He also said eat:this is my body/ drink:this is my blood - Mat4;4; Mat 26;26-28)
Proverbs 12;21 - [Define EVIL & MISCHIEF in context of original language]
"There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief."
Evil = אָ֑וֶן = ’ā-wen: iniquity, misery, sorrow, trouble.... if read as iniquity then it says that there is no separation from God that happens to the just.
Mischief = רָע = ra': unhappiness, misery....
Ecclesiastes 7;15 - [Why would God cause the righteous to sleep?]
"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness."
Consideration 1 = Isaiah 57;1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Consideration 2 = Matthew 9;12-13
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
I want to perish in the righteousness God has granted me through Christ... just saying. I wouldn't want to perish wicked. After death comes judgement. I think that because God is unwilling that any should perish, and out of love, he gives us every opportunity imaginable to repent so that on our day of judgement we are without excuse. God is blameless.
Ecclesiastes 8;14 [Kinda like Jesus?]
"There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity."
Jesus was wounded for OUR transgressions. He was bruised for OUR iniquity. Though he himself was blameless and perfectly righteous. What manner of love is this???
Isaiah 53;6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Read 1 Peter 2:18-24 [there is no reward for enduring a punishment you deserve....but there is grace for grace]
Romans 3;10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
what a brilliant debate!
If I remember right, God commended Job for asking and for debating Him.
Interestingly enough Christianity, if true, rather than offering "cheap hope" offers the most costly hope ever bestowed on man in any fictional/nonfictional narrative ever.
At this point the only way it can be called cheap, from the opposition, is if it's not true, which during the debate is begging the question or strawmanning depending on the context he's using it.
Dr. Brown is very good. And uses some excellent strategies. But it becomes very difficult to defend what is indefensible.
Eternal suffering for being born in the wrong religion (the overwhelming majority of people die in the religion of their culture)? It is very difficult to defend...
That would be really evil, right?
Great debate!
I've watched this debate several times now - and speaking from an unbiased perspective - even though I don't think one can really "win" a debate, but rather present a better argument; I would have to be in favor of Dr. Ehrman. He seemed to engage in more of a debatable manner while Dr. brown spoke as if he was on a pulpit In Sunday service. Maybe others feel different, but this is my own subjective opinion.
That's your own subjective opinion. I simply disagree.
Jeff david You just feel like repeating yourself?
Mr. Satan + Why do you call yourself Mr. Satan?
Dr. Brown like all the Christian apologetic tend to always end up preaching and throwing red meat to their base once the debate seems to be getting away from them..
Doc B would it be better to ask the agnostic on what basis do you make good judgments , in some cultures people eat with their neighbors in others they eat their neighbors which one is good
The dad and the son, having sex with the same women. This will call God to judge.
Amos 2:6-7
Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
I feel sorry for ehrman. he believes in his own mind and finite understanding. hes made self god. he leans on his own understanding. every man at his very best state is altogether worthless, even lighter than worthless.
This is all I think of this guy
Hebrews 6:4-10 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
And also the questions Job had applies to him.
God bless you Dr Michael Brown. Great debate, you killed it.
Suffering in its most succinct form: the parents who lost their children when Herod massacred them. How wise were the wise men when they actually allowed an internationally known thug named Herod to find out they were seeking "The King of the Jews" for they said they had seen his star in the east and were come to worship him. They could have went discretely and secretly to Jewish leaders saying they wanted to keep this info away from Herod. God warned Joseph to flee into Egypt that Herod sought to kill Jesus, but god did not warn all the other parents and their children were murdered. God could see this - being omniscient and all - that this was going to happen way ahead of time and could have decided it would not happen and thus not give this prophecy to an OT figure to prophecy about just as he told Isaiah that King Hezekiah would die, Isaiah told this to this king and then God changed his mind about Hezekiah dying. This is all true unless all humanity'[s future is all truly set in stone and God knew that Hezekiah would pray and that He would hear his prayer and knew he would change his mind, tell Isaiah that he had changed his mind and knew all of this before time even began.
Dr. Brown is only half the man he used to be.
What is that supposed to mean???
@@jerardosc9534 because he used to be an orthodox jew but now he's a messianic jew
@@shio_sakaki_the_legend392 🤦♂️
@@jerardosc9534 Based response😅😅😅
@@merlinmbuso8448 Very based 😂
an example of a righteous action that a believer in God could perform that one who does not believe could not. first, we must define a righteous action. if we define it according to the standard of the world, then there is very obviously no righteousness that a believer could do that an unbeliever cannot. and of course, the atheist would object to righteousness defined on biblical grounds, where the mere acceptance of God's grace is a righteous action in of itself and is only possible to those who believe. so the question is rigged from the beginning.
Bart has no understanding of the one mind of God ,which limits the true understanding of God
I think once you go rational then Faith loses any meaning.. That is why Bart is where he is..
@@theaviationist.5719 so called rationalist...🤣🤣
hard to believe that he was a christian
I do not think he was. He was a professor who now makes gross generalizations? He doesn't even understand basic scriptures and is misquoting " some( not some of you) standing here ... and this generation will not taste death ...". Should Dr. Brown be stripped naked and starve or be accused as a hypocrite because he has not personally fed every starving child on earth?
Should Bart accuse him--and he did-- when , as an atheist-- Bart does have to care--at all? I'm not saying he does not make good points because he does.
BTW, Haiti is one of the most evil places on earth. They do not follow Christ and never repent, never change. They fake it to get money and go straight back to total sin, voodoo and all manner of barbarism.
Rain falls on the good and bad.
Satan is the God of this world. That's the reason Satan could tempt Jesus.
Brown understands "balancing voices" in the Bible.
Believe it or not but Jobs 10 kids where the same !0 kids he lost .
Job 1:18-19?
Dariusz Zubrowski explain tht one if you can..
StoneColdTruth
Because God knows He can't replace kids you love once with new kids ,
Yes God give Job twice of animals and wealth but not twice of kids ,
God "store" Jobs kids in Heaven and in right time He give them back to him.
Just like God made Abraham I Sarah young again before she conceived Isaac.
See in Bible how old was Sarah when King of Egypt realize how Beautiful she is and he want her for his wife
Old woman wrinkled up from desert climate :)?
Dariusz Zubrowski haha thats a good theory brother but idk about that one!
There is no valid biblical perspective where evil is predicated on human freedom
God is the author of evil????
@@jerardosc9534 How does that question apply to my comment?
@@bobpolo2964 you say it’s not humans so I asked if it was God who started evil.
What position do you hold to???
@@jerardosc9534 Satan preceded humanity
I agree with Bart Ehrman...