Microsoft Auto SR Tested: An AI Upscaler That Works On Every Game?
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
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The less NVIDIA exclusivity we have the better everything is
The less microcock is included in the gaming industry, the better. Especially gaybox fanqueers!
Yeah I love dlss but competition is great. I'd love to see more good options.
NVIDIA's dominance makes me sick. Especially making so much bank off of this insane AI bubble.
Next step will be probably neural texture compression for RTX 5000
Nvidia is basically the Apple of GPUs; as good as their hardware is, I do not support their anti-consumer business practices. AMD is a perfectly good alternative in most cases.
I think this is why the surface team now leading xbox hardware team
@@casualtuna2914 x is a sign for asshole..
Calling it now. Xbox handheld with dedicated NPU and this tech... I'm combination with an overhaul of how windows supports gaming in general
A Game Pass device on the go? Sign me up!
@@JVCFever0 We literally already have this lol, many examples of it.
Maybe a windows 11 fork optimized for handled pc is the likely scenario.
With price increase of gamepass, it looks like they might have lower subscription price in handheld for 720p...it completely makes sense for xbox consoles having higher price for 1080p and 4k gamepass and 720p for having lower price... Let's see..
People already predicted that when NPU were announced. Microsoft is going full ML/AI
As a Tomb Raider snob that hates when Americans call Lara, Laura...at 10:22 he kinda says Lara, but then goes 'sorry Laira...And now I don't know what is life
Haha yeh that part put me off too.what makes it worse is John is the kind of person who prides himself on saying everything correctly.so why not now?
@@SENATORPAIN1 Him and Alex can't say anything without including the word, 'like' multiple times, the same as a thirteen year old girl does.
I don't Americans have so much trouble pronouncing such basic things lol.
Loora Crawft
pronounce water, that's what i thought.
I love John's take, integer scaling is so underrated and 720p can actually look great. I noticed the effect accidentally years ago and once I properly learned about it, it became my go-to for non-DLSS games.
Is it the increased pixel density that makes it work? I'm really curious because 720 to 1440 looks really bad to me and that's integer scaled.
@@3Dant Are you sure it's using integer scaling? you can scale to 2x in different ways
@@Stef3m Yeah I've tried a bunch of different scalers. Integer scaled works well for old 2D games but for 3D games, I found that an algorithm like FSR worked a lot better for doing 720 to 1440.
I can see this tech being used by gamers with handheld or otherwise lower powered PC's (Steam deck, ROG Ally, etc) connected to higher res monitors to great effect.
There are solutions already used like uniscaler and loseless scaling and dlss enabler
I think its most helpful for emulators. Ive been wanting to get into old japanese dating sims from ps1 and ps2 but the jaggies and low contrast makes it hard to use a hud translator. Although, it doesn’t seem that it will solve it completely but one could try
only if you put windows on the Steam deck
Fully agree with John's comments about nearest-neighbour / integer upscaling. 99/100 times I would take half-resolution integer scaling over a blurry / smeary upscaling postprocess.
never heard Lara pronnounced Laira before 😂
Very curious as to what something like 1440p Balanced/Quality -> 4K AutoSR would be like (As 1440p Balanced/Quality are 820p and 900p respectively, so higher than 4K Ultra Performance but a lower IR than 4K Performance).
The Upscaling cost of 1440p vs 4K is what makes me curious here as DLSS has a notable increase in computational cost to output 4K versus 1440p.
So if AutoSR's flaws can be masked by the sheer increase in pixels in the initial image (and the shorter throw to 4K versus 720p -> 4K), how close would a 1440p Quality +AutoSR 4K image be to a 4K Performance Mode image using DLSS?
Damn ... That + lossless scaling frame generation is gonna be lit ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Hoping that this tech drops on Xbox Series, could be interesting to games that have not enhanced options on Backward compatibility games, or even in actual games
Very cool! Excited to check this out! How was the input latency hit? You mention it but do not really characterize/measure it…
Very few things in the world gets more use than that picture of Richard in DF's thumbnails.
If Auto SR indeed runs on the NPU, then that’s a great proof of concept already. People are not willing to spend extra $$$ for SoC with NPU for generative AI future proofing alone. But many laptop gamers would be willing to do that if NPU provides DLSS3 quality upscaling for zero GPU cost.
Next step: provide NPU with motion vectors. NPU reads+writes internal full res accumulation/history buffer.
But there’s no free lunch. NPU upscaler would also need couple of full screen passes to do the upscaling, just like a GPU algorithm would. In a shared memory system this is competing with GPU bandwidth. Also NPU would use some of the shared TDP. NPU is of course more optimal for tensor work than GPU, so it would be more efficient. And
AMD and Qualcomm do not have deficated tensor matrix units in their consumer GPUs (AMDs WMMA intrinsics just utilize existing vector ALUs better). NPU upscaling seems like a great idea for these vendors. Nvidia has tensor cores in consumer GPUs too, and if I understood correctly Intel is bringing tensor cores to their consumer GPU too, in addition to the NPU (Lunar Lake).
DLSS has telltale shortcomings that everyone has known about for years, particularly having to do with two zones of vastly differing temporal vectors and the artifacts that can engender. None of the clips showcase such a circumstance and I can't help but feel tempted to suspect that this is by design.
"everyone". When you start with uneducated assumption, it invalidates the rest of what you have to say. If you have something to say, just say it. No one needs you to speak for the masses, you really don't represent everyone.
@@Mcnooblet especially as no one uses engender in normal everyday conversation, lol
Oooo that handheld gonna be fire 🔥!
In 5-10 years from now they're all going to damn near perfect.
If you had to choose, would it be better if this becomes the new standard, or FSR? Which one would be the better upscaler if only 1 could win
But DLSS is the standar tho
@@funbrute31 DLSS cannout be used everywhere like ASR or FSR could.
@@tackier52 neither can Auto SR since it requires an NPU or something like that for now. So basically unless I'm wrong the way I understand it is that you'll need yo buy new compatible hardware, or hope your current one will become compatible one day. Hence it doesn't work on everything either.
And I know your meant every game and not every hardware but it's still a big issue to me.
@@huntercyril Almost all modern Smartphone SoC's (samsung, Google, Qualcomm, Apple, Huawei & Mediatek chips all have one) and laptop APU's (intel, AMD and Apple all have it), have an NPU. I can't find anything implying that AMD and Intel will be baking one into their desktop and server CPU's, but I suppose the algorithm could be made to run on GPU on such platforms.
With that said, I think AMD FSR is probably the most likely candidate to be the upscaling standard.
I agree that raw 720p looks better than most of the upscale. My tv upscales ps3 very well, same with most 360 games
Yes. Native 720p already looks extremely good here. I wonder how good will 480p or 240p fare?
@@jsr734No 720p sucks your eyes are bad.
@@ZackSNetwork PS360 games didn't use TAA, so it looked pretty good.
this is probably the only real use of an NPU that windows has, everything else is a gimmick so im glad to see at least this works.
Could we get a video on how elden ring refuses to support ultrawide monitors (theyre supported but then disabled via black bars pasted over a rendered image) and if you mod the game to remove the black bars they artificially add to the sides to force 16x9 they will ban you from online play? I feel like thats a more interesting and important story than talking about bad traversal stutter in fromsoft games for the thousandth time.
Are you serious?! Thanks for saving me from wasting money on this game!
NPU is still a gimmick, it basically does the same thing newer GPU architecture can do, just slower and allegedly for less power - but you are paying with chunk of die space. Microsoft pushed all manufacturers for that 40 TOPs NPU to save on their server resources - running AI on local machines is cheaper... for them.
And for Elden ring - nothing new and not the first FromSoftware game you need to mod or use 3rd party software to enable common features like UW and fps uncap, as for banning from online, all of these methods change game files or Memory of the running game - just like cheat tools. I'm not justifying this, but it is the kind of stuff you expect from FROMSOFTWARE since DS 1 at the very least. DF already talked about UW and FPS CAP on their recent video covering the DLC, I see no point to make whole video called "UltraWide is not supported in Elden Ring" or to talk about this again in DF direct, they will just repeat what already said in that video - go watch the video if you didn't already.
@@LukewarmEnthusiast Yeah, i loved the game originally but bought an ultrawide between it and its expansion. Boy was I surprised. I returned it and left a pretty bad review. Especially since ultrawide support is perfectly functional in the games code AND armored core supports it just fine.
@@eliadbu Yeah i don't agree. I think theyre literally putting in worthless dead silicon in order to chase a stock price, and that every modern CPU is now weaker and less capable than it should be. BUT, if we're going to have this cancer shoved into our machines at least it can do this.
As for the banning and modding, i get it, but who even cares? It's not a remotely competitive multiplayer game anyway. The MP of that franchise and other from soulslikes is, at best, a meme and way to grief. I just genuinely don't get why the support is fully functional (the bars even break sometimes and you can just play as normal) and yet they intentionally just harm people with ultrawides. Does miyazaki just had wide screens or something? That choice on their part is absurd, and it feels like something DF should cover.
Thou shalt not use cinematic widescreen
So, this is such a weird way to do things, but the best utility I ever got out of RSR (and where I would recommend trying Auto SR) was playing games on a 1080p monitor that were specifically built for 720p. Like, for example, Xenblade X in CEMU. It has trouble when you don't play at an integer multiple of 720p - so I would render at 1440p, downscale to 720p to get some janky SSAA, then RSR up to 1080p and it looked pretty darned good. The biggest benefit is that the sharpening helps with the lower-res textures that were developed specifically for 720p output. It's definitely better than just running at 1080p.
Use lossless scaling, great program.
Npu will be used as upscalers for all games with any graphics card... Might work
Can this work on Xbox? There are some of the best games which still run on 900p in Series S/X consoles.
Imagine series s suddenly running games at upscaled 4K. This require a NPU so probably the next gen will have this.
"System requirements
Your device must meet the following requirements for Auto SR:
A Copilot+ PC with a Snapdragon® X Series processor with Hexagon NPU and an integrated GPU.
Windows 11, version 24H2 or later.
Latest graphics and neural processor drivers. To manually check for updates, go to Start > Settings > Windows Update, then select Check for updates.
A display resolution of 1080p or greater.
Latest version of Auto Super Resolution Package.
Game requirements
Auto SR is supported in most games that run on:
DirectX 11 or DirectX 12
Emulated x64 or Arm64 native platforms."
Not in its current form, at least, but I expect to see something like it show up on newer hardware
7:45 It definitely uses more frames. There are ghosting artifacts in some scenes. That can only happen if you use more frames.
No HDR and limited to DX11 and DX12 and limited to snapdragon elite at the moment. Curious why it’s limited to Copilot+ only
It needs the (relatively) powerful NPU that's in the Snapdragon X chips (although it also works with the Plus chips).
And I don't know if it's fully, truly exclusive to DirectX 11 and 12? It... Kinda works on a couple of DirectX 9 games I've tried?
@@alyessamaddox7022Amy recent GPU is more powerful than that MPU.
Lossless Scaling LS1 is much better.
Unless I misunderstood parts of this discussion I see no information on Auto SR on X86 platforms (they have openly stated support only for windows on ARM Co Pilot PC’s). Am I mistaken?
For now, Microsoft has said this is only on Snapdragon X chips, but that's in line with their messaging on Co-pilot + features in general. It's likely, if not guaranteed, that we'll get support after newer hardware launches.
Yeah, I wanna' know that too! Looking at AMD's website for their new Ryzen AI laptop-chips, it lists Microsoft as a partner, so if it's not coming to other platforms, than Snapdragon, then that's rather strange.
I’d love to see support for existing CPU’s/GPUs. Just thinking of the Legion Go which has quite a high native resolution where this might be a great way to add more synthetic detail for relatively cheap.
I could see there being some issues doing this with a dedicated GPU--if only because the NPU and GPU aren't going to be on the same SoC then, and transmitting the data across the PCIe connection might add more latency?
But we'll have to see. Might give GPUs a reason to finally implement PCIe 5 😅
Could you test with metal gear solid 3 from steam using auto SR? I'm curious if this does the job that Konami didn't do in the master collection.
Something I'm wondering, is: will AutoSR be available for other types of Neural Processing Units? Can the software be run on other NPU's, such as those on Intel and AMD APU's? Both AMD and Intel have fairly big upgrades to their NPU's in their latest chips. (AMD Ryzen AI for their Laptops of course -- and I *do* see Microsoft as one of their partners for these new NPU's, so I imagine it must be in the works)
I am going to call this guy Mr egg going forward. Subscribed...
Microsoft only need to implement their own version of Frame Generation at OS level, and this would be perfect.
*expletive YEAH!
this guy is the professor of PC gaming
Kinda a crap one but er yeah
Isn't MS upscaling techs based on AMD's FSR 2.x? And AMD already offers the option to enable FSR 2.x in all games through their driver. So MS's upscaling tech looks more and more like FSR 2.x with extra code to use the NPU for better results. We might be looking at a future FSR version where an NPU is used for better image quality.
It's clearly not
Should come in handy for the Xbox Handheld…
Latency destroys gameplay
Hi Everyone !
hi
I only want to upscale N64 and Ps2 to 4k.
You shouldn’t need to upscale. Any modern computer can play an N64 or PS2 at 4k pretty trivially. Heck, I think my Steam Deck might be able to output 4k for an N64 game and maintain 60fps.
@@yerald_a I meant, from a real console, not an emulator.
Mah...fare una versione con batteria decente e ricarica "fast" da almeno 100kw...l'avrei fatta
Can xbox use this auto SR to improve the backward compatibility? Sorry about my bad english :)
If microsoft wants to. They have not added it to xbox yet.
What happened to condemned 2 bloodshot, and quake 4. Is Microsoft not updating them for a reason? If older games work, what could be wrong with those two games?
The real question is, if all the transistors that went into the NPU had gone into the GPU instead, would you have gotten the same results? I can't help thinking that NPUs are a solution looking for a problem. OpenCL exists precisely to abstract this stuff away.
Unlikely, dedicated hardware units always beat the crap out of more general units when used for the specific tasks they were designed for. We see it with DLSS compared to FSR or XESS as well. Not only is the image better but the performance is also better.
There's more to designing GPUs and chips than throwing more transistors into things
Will normal Windows users get AutoSR as an update? Or is Microsoft going to hoard the tech for select users only??
Only ARM Snapdragon devices with NPU :(
So now..we have hardware base upscaling by Nvidia, software based upscaling by AMD, and now upcoming A.I based upscaling by Microsoft.. interesting..
AI upscaling ruined Aliens and The Abyss
You know what is even MORE impressive? Good performance at native res... you know, the settings that don't introduce more image stability problems.
So I need a compatible cpu in order to run this? Meh.
Lossless scaling is available and it wasn't compared or mentioned once 🤦
12:42
14:34
Haha been saying you people been getting scammed for years now!!!
makes my deck hard
Shut up.
All I care is when it comes to this new tech is frame times and input delay, all these new stuff makes the games play worse to look better, that is insane to me.
Don’t Microsoft already have an in-house upscaler, the one they put in their Xbox consoles.
No
@@od1sseas663 I am curious then what was the upscaling thing they were talking about since the Xbox one s?
no, sony will be for the ps5 pro and the ps4 pro did ages ago
@@wizzenberry then what the hell came with the Xbox one S?
You're confusing scaling & upscaling
Shame it needs one of those snapdragon processors and microsoft potentially recording everything that you do to get this lol
its possible to use now? if not, when its gonna launch for everyone?
I think you need a cpu with AI capabilities to use it. My Ryzen 5600X wont be able to use it since it has no NPUs
@@Zetchzie thanks , after doing the comment i've searched about it and discovered that you need a ARM cpu for use it or like you've said a CPU that have AI NPUs. i thought that it was avaible for every type o PC but unfortunately not
@@NYX1406 Should be possible on x86 chips with NPU.
First !!
Nope
They should backport this to their old xbox consoles
No. The next gen will come with an NPU(amd is alreading releasing one).
It requires an npu for the way they're making it work.
@@B_Machine so change that
Why don't you zoom in 1000% like you do for PS games
Bob, bobby, bobina.. ease up nobody plays favorites here. Well, expect for those that make a plastic box their profile picture🤦♂
To me this looks like FSR 1.0
Why is the title a question? Why are you asking me? How would I know? Shouldn’t the title of a video tell me something?
Why are you asking me about the title? What do you think?
@@AjayBlanco This will shock you, but the channel holder can read these comments.
There's a long standing rule of thumb that any headline that's a question can be answered with "no" - seems like this is an exception!
@@SimonBuchanNz I’m just sick of clickbait titles that abuse the English language.
@@citizen3000 Why are you writing this? What is the point of it?
Weird it came first to PC than xbox. Gamepass is also cheaper on PC than xbox now. Is Microsoft hinting at something?
Why do you always go to control by default when comparing graphics? Not only control, but specifically the dull office interiors with cream colored floors and ceilings and really only green grey white and almost black colors. I can think of ten prettier looking games than control to measure visual features with like Jedi survivor or Avatar or robo cop or Doom 16 or eternal or tears of the kingdom even idk pick anything newer than 2016 and control's interior office space. Something with a view like a blue sky and water and green trees and houses. In not biased against control but I have tried to play it and like the newer prey game, I was forced to stop playing because every time I tried, about 30 minutes in, those 2 games give me a migraine and I don't know why. I would've enjoyed them greatly but I can't even look at them. Anyways, I'm not against the game but for graphical comparisons or developer features it's a pretty bland looking game compared to most games from 2018 to today. Is it something to do with the engine? Is it running on unreal? And with it's age, wouldn't that be 4?
Jedi survivor with it's UE4!stutters and somehow blurry 900p image even when you play at 1440p or higher isn't the best example of good visuals :)
I think it is chromatic aberration and motion blur that give you headache. Try disable it and see if it works. Control does not use unreal engine. I think the reason they use it for the benchmark is because it is more visually pronouncing than other games with hdr and ray tracing. Tho I do agree they should use other games for more sample.
Control is still the standard for a really clean sharp resolve with ray traced visuals, and gives a decent mix of environments in the first hour chuck of the game, making it easy to benchmark.
There's also the aspect that you generally do want to stick with the same titles across different implementations to give a more apples to apples comparison, so you'd get the same question with any game (headaches excepted!)
Input lag? No thanks.
Here before the angry ponies 🤣🤣
Sounds like you're the one actually crying here m8
All 'My little pony, games...suck. There I said it.
Ahh it's funny sitting here on the sidelines watching console gamers bicker back and forth. Both are platforms are good products!
Microsoft needs to focus on the OS and ONLY the OS. Let other companies focus on special areas like cpu, and gpu, as long as Windows can properly allow open channels for communication between the devices and networks. Windows is just bad when it comes to balancing all the things. I am ALWAYS having issues with HDR, or getting Dolby Atmos to stay as I set it. I do not appreciate having to keep setting my preferences over and over and over again within the OS. This is where Microsoft keeps dropping the ball. The audio and graphics should be offloaded to the hardware devices and their corresponding software. Maintaining this balance across all platforms and builds is the real struggle. The hardware device apis and the os need crystal clear communication. High quality graphics scalers I believe should be built into gpu control panels rather than injected with post processing into games. Things are as they are because the way forward flows like a river into the ocean, showing the way. Thank God for Lossless Scaling, and just imagine a small and affordable Mclassic type of device with that kind of power... or a soc on our gpus with the same high quality features... I have been waiting YEARS for nvidia to get some form of anti lag frame insertion and proper hq upscaing to make old blurry games come back to life. Still hopeful, but no longer holding my breath about it. All of these companies compete for money, not to make consumers happy. If a bunch of smart people with influence got together to have a study about what people want in a pc across the board, we could have an incredible future with new hardware, new feature sets, and new ways of getting stuff done with style. We could have a technological epoch if we could stop allowing advertisements and commercials to interfere with our thinking and destroy our ideas and creativity.
Can't believe they're still working from home. No wonder they got so lazy
Exactly how are they lazy?
Of all the channels I routinely watch, DF has the most content output and of good quality. Additionally if you can run a business virtually and dispense with the spending of money on superfluous office space, you save quite a bit of money.
Gaming stopped being cool a long, long time ago. Now it is about selling you graphics
Gaming is less about selling you graphics than its ever been buddy
All people talked about in the PS2/PS3 generations were graphics
Minecraft, Palworld, Fortnight and many others are proof of this
Gameing has only just become “cool” my guy. What are you too young to remember people getting bullied for playing video games? As for graphics there are hundreds and thousands of great games that look like NES PS1 PS2 style games. Graphics are less relevant than ever.
Remember when systems were automatically better when they had more bits in them? 16 bit! 32 bit! 64 bit, bitches!
Bro, this is the DF channel. They're almost exclusively dedicated to graphics.
Interesting perspective, because data shows that graphics was never been so unimportant than now. I remember in the PS2/PS3 and even in PS4 era, graphics are the biggest selling point in a game, especially in the ps3/360 era. Today is a different story, just look at the best-selling games of the last 3 years. But this is a graphics dedicated channel, so they only will talk about graphics 🙄.