This was such a good podcast. I was a charismatic Christian minister for about 15 years, so I have first hand experience in all of this. For me, the first time I believed I was hearing the voice of God was during a particularly stressful time in my life. I had just started high school, didn’t fit in, and didn’t really have any friends. I was raised in the Church and while I believed in it, I never took it that seriously. Plus I had a strong desire to do something that really mattered. So one day when I was 15 as I was just praying, I felt like God asked me “If you could do anything for me, what would it be”. And instantly I said “a prophet” (because I loved the OT stories), and I heard God say, good because that’s what I’ve called you to be. Now, no one had ever taught me how to do this this was completely on my own. I didn’t hear God speak audibly, I've never experienced that, but rather from within. But it didn’t feel like my normal mental process. It felt deeper and more powerful. That one experience started me on my journey and all I wanted to do was serve God. Unfortunately for me, I soon found a very woo woo charismatic ministry online and I went through their training courses on how to be a prophet, attended conferences, and I learned a lot of different spiritual techniques, but all of them were about “tapping the inner rivers of life within you”. And I eventually became a minister in their organization. While I had a lot of fun learning how to give prophetic words and interpret dreams and speak in tongues and interpret them, I also ended up making some really bad decisions based on that. From going into the ministry as a volunteer and taking on debt I had no way to repay because I believed God was going to provide. To not taking medicine because I believed with all my heart that God was going to heal me so I didn’t need to take it anymore. The worst part was the anti-intellectualism. I had always been a bookwork and intellectually curious, but that was anathema to these people. I was constantly told “Get out of your head and into the Spirit!”. Yes, they were some guard rails such as saying that if any revelation doesn’t line up with the Bible, it’s either your mind or the devil, but in practice, everyone justified their relations even if it was against what the Bible actually said. I was so naive, but years later what eventually started to break the delusion was I never got healed or experienced any real miracles. Instead every time I brought this up to my leaders, they said crap like “You just need to embrace your masculinity so God can heal your hormone disorder” or “It’s just a demon, you need to take authority over it” or “You need to deal with your sin”. All based on a vision, an inner impulse, or whatever bullshit. As you can imagine this is so ripe for abuse. About 5 years ago when I had finally had enough I started looking at what other denominations teach and was shocked to find out that most Christians didn’t do half the stuff we did. And from there it was learning about evolution which was taboo and the real history of the Bible that caused me to loose my faith after many a sleepless night begging and pleading with God to show me he was real. In retrospect, I think I was engaging in what Carl Jung called active imagination. Except I had the entire Bible and Christian lore as a feedstock for my imagination, and if I imagined something that the Bible taught, it reified my belief in God. The worst was when I told everyone I didn’t believe in God anymore. Instead of talking about why, they just wanted to make me feel like a sinner for rejecting Jesus. It really was a cult I was in but it’s taken me a long time to admit that, because who wants to admit they were in a cult for 15 years? Even in charismatic churches that aren’t cults, the level of fuckery I’ve seen is unbelievable. As TM Luhrman said, humans are complex and I’m sure sunk cost fallacy and not wanting to loose my friends who were all in the same ministry as I was, was a big part of why I stayed there for so long. I will say that I don’t believe that a lot people who do this stuff are mentally ill but rather have an over active imagination, and a desire to experience God for real like supposedly the people did in the Bible stories. The lack of real tangible presence drove the desire to connect spiritually. Also, one of the realizations I came to was that even if God’s spirit was communicating to my human spirit, and my spirit/soul was communicating to my brain, there is no way to tell if it’s not just all happening in the brain even if I did an MRI. God is supposed to be a spirit so by definition there is no way to prove that any revelation actually came from God. While I was an atheist for a while after my reconversion, I have since found advaita vedanta, a monistic school of Hinduism very interesting. It may be that consciousness is a fundamental part of reality and not an emergent feature. But I don’t see how we can ever prove that. And trusting something you hear in your mind is not a recipe for success. I’ll close with this. Since then I’ve tried psychedelics and it is truly amazing to me what the human mind can come up with. Altered states of consciousness are real, and ultimately I think that’s what spiritual experiences are. Now why a molecule like psilocybin or DMT can do that, I have no clue. These experiences of altered states can be powerful, but reason is the best path to truth.
You pretty much detail alot of the reasons why I also left Christianity. I often would say things in my testimony like "God healed me from depression." While, at the time, my spiritual experiences with Jesus did lift me out of depression, it was only *temporary.* I quickly fell back into it months later. And I'd also say "if only you could feel the Holy Spirit." Because whenever I'd read a powerful Bible verse or hear a powerful gospel song, I'd feel this warm tingly feeling and get goosebumps. I've since realized I can get that from so many other things. A relatable song, a powerful movie, a moving story, etc. And finally, after talking to many people with schizophrenia, I realized how powerful the brain really is. Often times people with schizophrenia have hallucinations, delusions, and feelings that all lead them to believe in a weird narrative of the world. The mind is extremely powerful, and confirmation bias is intense.
I appreciate both of your responses. I’m a Catholic, so luckily I’ve never had to deal with any cultish anti-intellectualism. That’s the thing about many Protestant (or perhaps just charismatic) churches, most people who are part of them base their faith upon flimsy ground. I prefer to focus on arguments from God’s existence. Also, a word on miracles. I’m not sure I understand why the absence of miracles in one’s life should count against God’s existence. It’s like saying that because you’ve never won the lottery, it mustn’t exist.
@@henryvdl3692 I have a lot of respect for Catholics, and when I was going through it I watched a lot of videos from Bishop Barron and they were very helpful. You are right that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but at the same time Jesus pretty clearly says anything you ask me in my name, the Father will give you. That's pretty clear to me. And I know all the usual qualifiers people say about not taking it literally, but if something so clear is open to interpretation, then everything else is too. Which is why unless God gives me the gift of faith, I just can't believe in it. But that's me, and not a standard anyone else has to follow.
@henryvdl3692 Oh man, well I regret to inform you then that the next generation of young Catholics, or as they like to call themselves "tradcaths" are full or anti-intellectualism. They are also extremely anti-semitic. It's very worrying.
This is amazing! Dr. Luhrmann attended my church in Chicago for a time 20 years ago, to observe us. I really wish I would’ve engaged with her then. She’s been at this a long time, and really does her homework!
This was a really good guest Alex! I just added nearly all of her books to my wish list. And I'm definitely getting the book, "How God Becomes Real." This was a deep conversation. I really enjoyed it and I didn't want the two of you to stop. It was that good. It felt like you two could have taken this conversation even deeper and covered so many areas of belief and what it is to experience these-for lack of a better word-mysteries. Thank you for creating these type of conversations on your channel.
55:00 I loved hearing a skeptic recount her "mystical" experiences. I am no longer a christian, however i look back on some experiences i had when i was deeply involved in the religion and im still so perplexed by them, not necessarily by the cause of them but just the capacity for the experiences to feel so real and profound. I recall once listening to the bible on audio, i believe the book was leviticus, and it was like i became in a trance like state almost like a high. i look back and attribute that feeling of an almost hypnotized state to the repetitive nature of how certain parts of the bible were written.. but it was just so strange
the same feeling can be achieved in different cases that involve great personal value. For instance a certain song that is very personal can bring a euphoric “high” feeling when listening to it.
You hit the nail on the head. Text can have a hypnotic effect on humans. Music can have a hypnotic effect on humans. Video can have a hypnotic effect on humans. Reduce the inputs back to the mind, and one finds that all inputs are just frequencies.
Psychedelics would absolutely recreate all these experiences. It's all about brain chemistry when you get down to it. In the case of this guest the battery in her bag certainly short circuited with some conductive thing(s) in her bag. When batteries short they often get hot and melt/smoke. Most likely her feeling of energy was quite literally electric energy being discharged, luckily at a rate that wasn't harmful. Her mind was primed to expect that feeling from magic. This whole episode feels like an attempt to give some extra priority to these feelings of delusion. I'm personally happy to die slightly earlier with a clear mind rather than eek out a few more years lying to myself. Good guest/interview but the subject matter felt like it lacked the philosophical substance typically found here.
@@supercoleman44says someone who probably never took psychedelics. Because they absolutely don't have the same effect as an authentic religious experience.
I was raised in fundamentalist christian religion and was devout. I attended services several times a week, studied the bible daily, prayed daily, preached the Good News, believed my purpose was to serve God, who was all loving. And yet, I never felt good about it, it never made sense, I was deeply unhappy, even suicidal as a devout, active Believer of n "all good god." Now, over a decade from deconstructing my faith, I am an atheist, agnostic, in that it matters not in my daily life if there is a god or not. I feel moire free and more at peace than ever. My physical health has also improved immeasurably.
On the one hand atheists take themselves too seriously because they believe they can judge God, while on the other they are not serious enough to be honest with themselves.
@@ephs145 ah, the message of the bible being contradictory, hateful, bigoted, and unjust? Yes. What about it makes sense to you in the question I would ask. now that I am not longer indoctrinated to that belief system and can use my own reasoning and follow my loving heart I find it so puzzling how others find the message a good and loving one. But then I recall I was once one who was inculcated from birth to trust it above my own perfectly good logic and good heart....I am happy for those who find happiness and peace in its message, but I never did. To each their own,
Our desire to have faith in a loving god, is much like our experience of shared or even spontaneous laughter. Both come from our need to find relief from the anxieties and pains of existing and from our anxieties around our eventual non-existence.
Hi. Sounds like we both have found great insights in Terror Management Theory? I am just reading Becker's "Denial of Death" at the moment and currently trying to clarify the mechanisms as precisely as I can. Your analogy is a good “test case” I think. However I am not sure eg whether the unconscious roots of laughter are indeed the same as existential terror. I have a vague memory that Freud thought laughter arose from the subversion of expectation. Is that the same process as repression? I have found that TMT has sent me back (after many years) to trying to make sense of psychodynamic theory so comments like yours trigger more questions than answers at the moment.
@@martifingers The fact that you picked up on my possibly having been interested in Becker’s writings was eerily insightful. It just so happens, that I purchased a digital copy last month and have also been reading it from time to time. I just think that regardless of their psychological roots, both laughter and the belief in an abstract or supernatural protector, serve as a balm for suffering. They both provide periodic (and in some cases, extended) relief from it. Sometimes it’s worth laughing, not just at oneself, but at the absurdity of all existence. I mean whoever created the cosmos, must have been joking.
@@Ungrievable Ha! People who know me would have a wry smile about me being ascribed anything like clairvoyance! Yes, the laughter thing is quite possibly central. For instance there are Buddhist teachings on how trainee monks can get trapped worrying about how they are not getting rid of their ego fast enough. The problem is, that worry is itself a sign of the ego. The solution apparently is to dissolve the contradiction in laughter. I am interested though in the relationship between “instinctual” behaviour (ie genuine laughter) and the culturally constructed identities that form around existential anxiety. Of course this may not be the right way to formulate the problem but if Becker is onto something (and I think he was) phenomenon such as you mention should be explicable within the theory. I cannot disagree with you about cosmic absurdity either...
Bringing in an anthropological approach that acknowledges how social we are and the role of our social behavior and religious practice if not belief. Just really thoughtful. Wonder if there is a gender split in listener reactions.
There seem to have been discussions in academia concerning differences in male and female ways of research (I’m not an academic), and I’m wondering if there is a split in academic reaction to her conclusions or approach that breaks along gender. In part, it would seem to fall under a discussion of the value of diversity.
@@andrewswenson6995Makes sense, since hormones are "messengers", & the different messengers send different messages & so cause different outcomes, in body / mind.. 😁☮️🌏
55:13 Human psychology and biology is primed for shared spiritual experience. Internal perception isn't reliable when we're a species capable of hallucinations and false experience.
Great episode. Another great person you should get on the show is Anna Della Subin. She wrote a book called Accidental Gods: On Men Unwittingly Turned Divine. Very fascinating read and would compliment this episode well.
Oh wow, the first woman to appear on this channel standalone (and the second overall after Rachel Oats). Don't think I was ever that excited for an episode
Thanks Alex. Yet another extremely instructive video. I don't know how you continually produce such interesting and informative videos. Ms T. M. Luhrmann's rationality and logical responses are appreciated.
Great guest. Very helpful insights from this extremely well informed acadaemic. One small point about the "play" analogy. I am assuming Alex has not spend a lot of time playing with very little kids (maybe around 2-3?) but in my considerable experience (four grandsons etc.) there is a stage at which children will not be worried that you offer to eat the Playdo sausage roll. Or maybe it seems there is such a suspension of normal perception/cognition that it's simply not important whether you eat it "really" or not. The play analogy seems a good one...
This is an excellent thought-provoking conversation. It is this kind of scholarship that may eventually move humanity out of the darkness. Congrats Alex & Dr.Luhrmann. HOWEVER I would love to know what they think about the Turin Shroud.
I was about 6 when I tumbled down the concrete steps in front of our house. I knew Jesus loved me, yes I know for the Bible tells me so. I remember seeing the hat that my dad bought me, it was tumbling too and inside I could see the logo of an airplane and the blood. I couldn't scream. So I walked, then crawled up the dozen or so steps to the front door, asking Jesus for the blood to stop. It didn't stop but my mother wrapped me in a towel and a neighbor drove us to the hospital. I'm 78 now and I trust doctors. If Scotty, my friend next door had fallen I would have helped him. Scotty died at 40 of brain cancer. I would have helped him if I was Jesus but then neither of us are.
@@thebacons5943You just reminded me of when I used to get hit by my dad for misbehaving. The child I was used to say "didn't hurt" when really it did.
First time I heard her speak. Luhrmann is an anthropologist often cited, and she has interesting perspectives. I believe there is something to spirit(uality) ever since I stumbled into a priest in Bali in a temple, who blessed me with rice and then wanted some money. I did not have time to process this, it was very fast. But after a few minutes, I felt my mind of state altered to a kind of deep peace. I concluded that it must have been something he did, not just something that I produced from the inside
This interview is very interesting. I often wondered why people feel the need for a god to be true. I don't remember a time when I thought a god was needed, but I did look for evidence that, perhaps, there really was one. That search never uncovered any actual need or evidence of a reason one was actually needed. I am no longer searching, but I still wonder about why people seem to have a need for one - specific Religious variety notwithstanding.
I have known the Christian faith since my birth and I am wondering how people can live without knowing or wanting to know that there is a God. I just don't get what makes people act morally if the outcome of this world is just nothing. What gives your life meaning besides someone who created life?
When I became a believer, I wasn't looking for God, in fact I was more of a de-facto atheist, although certainly not a strident one. I became convinced pretty much overnight merely through casual reading of a book on esoteric Christianity.
@@jonasj2627 And I wonder why people need a god to be moral or have a need for a supernatural explanation of creation (all creation, not just life). Believing in magic (call it supernatural if you wish) is not an explanation of anything.
@@allenmarkham I would be more sympathetic to that argument, if Science had reached a stage where it could offer a conclusive explanation of the origins of the universe and life itself. Put it another way - I think the credulity gap between belief in a God and belief in the scientific "explanation" - is very much overstated.
This is a fantastic episode. Great and new stuff to me about how people acted with that Rabbi, and the framework of religious practices as a kind of play-to-convince-ourselves-of-the-supernatural alongside others is really interesting and useful! Hearing about how people can believe in seeing someone after they're dead also goes a long way for me as a plausible explanation for the very weird stuff that happened when people reported Jesus's resurrection.
As I was de-converting it became clear to me that a powerful argument agains God's existence is the way ministries rely on financial donations rather than divine providence.
If you recall the temptation in the desert - one of the responses of Jesus was "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God". That statement could equally be written as "Man lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God - but also man needs bread". This is a tacit acknowledgement by Jesus that in this earthly world - we do require material sustenance e.g. money. A faithful believer would not expect to find manna on the ground for their convenience - and by the same logic - nor should a church ministry.
I’ve found for myself and others in my family, their belief in God seems to involve more of a sacrifice of their own agency and as a result, health and wellness seems to fall by the wayside while there’s a distraction of God being “in control”. I’m confident I’ll live longer and happier now that I’ve reclaimed control over my life and figured out God doesn’t exist.
Can't wait to hear the conversation with Bernardo Kastrup, a slow and steady comparison of the reasoning behind physicalism versus the reasoning for analytical idealism.
I have tremendous respect for Alex and don’t know Luhrmann’s work outside of this, so want to communicate respect up front. But I wanted to offer some honest critique because I was quite baffled by the claims put forward here. Luhrmann seemed to exhibit a lack of understanding of evangelical Christianity, a belief system she has reportedly studied - we don’t expect a just and loving world, but a broken one - thus not a tension as she claims. Our primary aim is not to create a more just world, but to be saved out of it. The fact we don’t pray for God to feed the dog for us is not at all out of a lack of genuine belief. Rather it is positive evidence for our belief in the Bible’s teachings on prayer - how we ought to pray, what we can expect God to answer and not answer, that being our personal butler is not among them. We also believe in a uniformity of cause and effect, which anticipates the order and natural goings on of a physical universe. I think a correct understanding is an important starting point here if one is going to make anthropological claims. I’m also a bit surprised by Alex’s critique about twelve minutes in that people of religious faith really have to ‘effort’ to believe. To base a critique like this simply on Luhrmann’s anecdotal claims here seemed irresponsible. I don’t think that’s an accurate rendering of what’s happening. And a 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that only about 16% of the world is unaffiliated with any major religion. If about 85% or more of the population on this planet have some belief in the supernatural, this to me is pretty clear indication that belief in the supernatural is widely intuitive and not strained/forced (whether true or not) Just a further point on the tone of a conversation like this… There is a clear bias of worldview and that’s fine, but the analysis of believers engaging in “play” like children is flatly condescending and I think betrays hubris. Since the physical world is given to reveal some deeply weird things to us: that dark energy and dark matter make up perhaps 95% of matter in the universe.. of which we know essentially nothing about, and that even within our atomic matter our bodies are primarily made of about 99.99999 empty space, that perhaps we live in one of infinity universes we can’t taste touch smell or see - I think we ought to approach conversations of the natural/supernatural and the nature of belief with far more of an open mind than seemed to be conveyed here. Peace!
So glad to hear these ideas articulated. I fall under the experiential category. I’m someone who is more susceptible to still be living in a book days after reading it. I didn’t grow up religious. At age 26, I had a ‘mystical’ experience outside of my mind that I perceived without a doubt was god speaking to me directly. It’s comforting to hear that there are more people going through this same journey. I’d be curious to hear the percentage of people who have pursued Christianity with part of their intention coupled with an interest in a romantic partner who grew up in Christianity. (I fall under this category if you didn’t guess 😆)
I love her concept of “paracosom” where the “faithful” imagine living in a different cosmos or reality. My take on this, however, is that what we call objective reality is also a paracosom. It is just that those supporting it possess sufficient power and authority to make it consensual reality for society as a whole.
No, our brain is making most of the job regardless of social irrationality. Our senses are limited in terms of light and sound perception as I’m sure you know. Existence is weird in this reality made of particles.
Finally someone who takes religion from the antropology point of view. For my way of seeing, history and antropology are the best ways to explain why all gods are basically the same and why they are all made by humans and for humans.
44:45 I think "religion makes you healthier" has to do with placebo effect. The placebo effect is when a person's physical or mental health appears to improve after taking a placebo or 'dummy' treatment, so people by believing religion make them healthier, it possibly will do
Such captivating discussion and analogies. The play make believe thing really is great. What i wish gets discussed along this is the cruelty and boredom of existence! When you realize we are borne with the code of existing for ever at all costs, the intensity of fear and desire, it is easy to understand why one can only make this tolerable through fantasies which fill the gap so well they are as real as anything. Yes you can do with all that and still be okay like japanese or scandinavian societies but you have to understand they also need netflix and alcohol to help them cast away their cares and worries even if for a moment. People with days full of devotional practices have much less inclination or time for netflix and alcohol cos oblivion is provided for them in different packages through different means.
@@Coolerranch1 life needs constant maintenance, its beem described as a pendulum swinging between suffering or boredom. Now compare that to having an all knowing all powerful big brother who is always in your favor, gives you what you really need at the right time, hears you before you ask and loves you and protects you eternally and unconditionally forever.
St. Luke Saint of the Day St. Luke the Evangelist (1st c.) was a well-educated Greek physician and a native of Antioch in Syria. He was a follower of St. Paul the Apostle and spent most of his life evangelizing with him in Asia Minor up until the time of Paul’s martyrdom in Rome. Luke wrote a canonical account of his apostolic journeys with Paul (the Book of Acts) as well as a biography on the life of Christ (the Gospel of Luke). The two books of Luke’s Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles were originally a single work. The intimate accounts contained in Luke’s gospel of the early years of Christ’s life (the Visitation, the Nativity, the Presentation, etc.) lead many scholars to believe that one of the eyewitnesses he interviewed was the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. According to tradition he was also a skilled artist and painted the first icons of Our Lady with the Child Jesus. Several of these icons are still venerated today, the most famous of which hangs in the Church of St. Mary Major in Rome. St. Luke is the patron saint of many trades including artists, painters, doctors, surgeons, and bachelors. His feast day is October 18th.
I agree with Luhrmann, that people who have a connection with beliefs, seem to be healthier overall,both physically and mentally. There is an intrinsic effect, the more we shed our desires the more we behave.I think, it is this part that ancient writers,or the story of God, has some moral/ethical value against our nature.
An anthropological is a welcome perspective. Speaking of all of these radically different religions in English, not their native historical situation, language, and culture creates an illusion of transparency. Without understanding the sociological, linguistic, geographical, psychological, and other social forces that birthed them it's not even proper to say you understand any of them.
Very interesting conversation. This reminded me of going to the movies where people gather and for an hour or two are completely absorbed in the story and soundtrack. For that time, we all pretend to be in a different place at the border of reality and imagination. I reckon this is similar to what a child experiences during play with an imaginary friend or an imaginary burger.
_The Mists of Avalon_ is Marion Eleanor Zimmer Bradley's retelling of the Arthurian legends. Isaac Asimov called it "compelling" (whatever that means). At seventeen, I enjoyed it, even found it a bit enlightening about religion. I wonder what I would think of it twenty-odd years later.
Every hospital should have two doors at the entrance. One to the ER and the other to the Chapel. Choose only one. This tells you what you truly trust in.
I always say there's a glaringly obvious reason ambulances don't take people to churches and temples. I like your two-doors illustration. Definitely gonna use that.
It's interesting about the absorption thing, because I am in Christ, but I feel like I'm totally the opposite to what you've described. I tend to very much dislike movies, because I generally find the characters unbelievable. When watching a movie, I often think "if that was a real person, they would never say/do such a thing, that's just ridiculous". I would much rather and find great joy in talking to people in real life. I love the rawness of real interactions. The awkwardness, the connection, the meaning. I would consider myself more logical than creative in temperament (I do IT work), and I haven't had any mystical experiences/visions. What draws me to God isn't mystical experiences (although I strongly believe they are possible), but an almost logical understanding of my relationship with him. He's not out to judge me, punish me, or be angry with me, but he is out to forgive me, heal me, bless me and exalt me in Christ, all because of his love for me.
Hi eltyo340. Can you say how you understand God is NOT out to judge or punish? Are you a Universalist? Also (and I am not trying to prove you wrong here) but perhaps we both would agree that "almost logical" is a rather odd description?
@@martifingers He's not out to judge *me* because I'm in Christ. All of my sins, past, present and future were judged and punished on the body of Christ at the cross. Now those in Christ will have to stand before Jesus on the Bema seat, but this is for our rewards, not for judgement of our sins. As for the logical part, that's how I came to Christ. I needed to know these things before I could possibly enter into a relationship with God. When you first meet someone, do you love them straight away? No, you have to find out if they're genuine, whether or not they judge you or accept you, whether or not they are kind and gracious to you, whether they hold grudges against you, etc etc. So I had to know all these things about God, logically, before I could give my heart to him. Now because there's an abundance of terrible teaching out in the world, you often have to come back to the simple truths and remind yourself (almost logically), God is for me, not against me.
You've created that God for yourself, and your interactions with it are actually your interactions with your own thoughts. Not judging. I'm former lifelong clergy myself. Read Prof. Luhrmann's book and you'll see where I'm coming from - anthropology, neuroscience. Good stuff!
@@woodygilson3465 yeah brother, I've had those doubts myself. Is it all some psychological trick I'm pulling on myself? I think no because it's changed my life in an extremely positive way, and I struggle to believe that a lie could do that. Or that it's some other truth that I could've gotten to by bypassing all the truths in the Bible. But who knows! Even the Bible says now we know in part :)
@@eltyo340 Losing my faith was abrupt and world-shattering. No drama, just a sudden realization. I struggled to find my footing for two of the three years since. I'll say this much though - if you want to understand the mind, you have to understand the brain. After all, it's everything you are. Neuroscience. You'd be surprised what doctors and scientists know about the brain. In short, our brains are about as reliable as a guilty death row inmate. It's literally why the scientific method and peer review exist.
She mentioned serious play several minutes earlier and it’s a common concept in psychology, so I’d say it was both in response and at least part of his preparation. It was just such an opportune moment & well taken!
I found this very interesting. I discovered many of the more unusual experiences I had over the years were due to Idiopathic Hypersomnia, having episodes of peculiar states of conciouseness gave rise to hallucinations, dreams superimposed on my normal vision. some of the weirder episodes would be passing out while working at my desk and dreaming exactly what i was actually doing then waking thinking i just nodded of but to discover later to have missed a chunk of a report etc that I had dreampt I had typed this mostly dissapeared with medication. I often wonder if some of the expeiriences may just be down to brain chemistry.
I had something similar. I was a senior in high school and had just gotten home from a class trip D.C. it was after midnight and I fell asleep immediately only to wake up and notice I couldn't move, I could open by eyes but I was very disoriented. I feel there was Presence. I tried to scream, that didn't work either. That lasted... for a few minutes or who knows how long. Then it stopped, I could move but I was exhausted. I decide to sleep and I did. When I woke up, I remember all that happened. What happened was mystery, not visit from E.T. or an angel. Instead, I thought medical, but I felt fine. I was 18, it was May 1963 and I was an atheist, thougth I don't think I'd heard that word. It was a Mystery. I didn't know. And over the years this happend 10 times more or less. It stopped when I was about 40. I had heard the term Night Terrors, that sounded like my experience. Maybe it was a version of your "Hypersomnia". I was in REM sleep and paralyzed.... but not fully asleep. So to a degree I still have a Mystery. I prefer that to pretending to understand what I don't actually understand.
@@dimbulb23 indeed part of the giveaway for me is the effect on me the meds have, previous meds had made things worse, the thing with me is my symptoms got steadily worse year on year until it was pronounced enough to register on scans I did the whole sleep clinic monitoring thing they discovered i drop rapidly to REM and back out in the sleep period and that no matter how much sleep I get my body behaves as if its tired. It is likely linked to my autism, but ne of the other parts of the package is experiencing Synasthesia, I also studied sensory science as part of my degree an its quite clear there are plenty of parts that are not fully understood but are likely purely chemical.
Daily Verse "Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you." -Matthew 5:11-12
Quote of the Day "Faith and love are like the blind man’s guides. They will lead you along a path unknown to you, to the place where God is hidden." -St. John of the Cross
Gospel Jn 12:24-26 Jesus said to his disciples: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there also will my servant be. The Father will honor whoever serves me." "What does the prince of this world, the devil, tell us? Hang on to yourself. Aggrandize yourself. Stay safe, protected. But Jesus has come to throw out that prince, that principle. He proposes himself as the new prince. His sign is the sign of the cross, the death that leads to transfiguration: “Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.” Bishop Robert Barron "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/10/23)"
Really fascinating discussion. On the questions about types of people who are more or less likely to have belief, you may wanna chat with Matt Baker of the RUclips channel Useful Charts. He recently finished his thesis on these types of questions.
24:00 is the kid not confused that there is imaginary water on the floor? or not? seems important. I did not understand it, nor could i find any Paul Harris reference on it. Was this an analogy?
God, it has been observed, is that in which we live, and move, and have our being. The question then becomes, as framed by Schweitzer, how one takes this living and moving and being, this experience of existence, whether as a miracle or simply as a given fact. In the broadest, most universal sense, this defines the dividing line between believers and nonbelievers.
I did a comment In response to a comment I saw that said that God making himself known would go against free will, I said: It makes no sense because that has already happened when Jesus walked and performed all the miracles. So, why was it okay then and not now? Why would Jesus not come into the dream of everyone in existence right now simultaneously, so that every human on earth would talk about having the same dream? The argument being, 'Yeah, but some people would still not believe, so what's the point?' I would say THERE is a point because even though many still would not believe after such a dream (even though everyone on earth had it at the same time, but 1 or 2 days apart), that would still rescue many millions more humans who did believe but not 100%-because that would be the final nail in the coffin to make them 100% believers, just as he did when he walked the earth. It makes no sense why he would not do such a thing today
@@MrSeedi76 I'm not an unbeliever; I'm still searching. I'm leaning on Jesus, but I'm not fully convinced and have some doubts. One of them is what I said here. There are only three possibilities for me: 1. God does not exist. 2. God does exist, but it's not what we think. 3. It really is the biblical God, and He does what He wants to do. This is how He is, and He favors some people while others not. However, at the same time, He is good enough to give everyone a chance by sending Jesus. Before, we were not chosen, but now, even the non-chosen ones have a chance. He even said it himself that He gives famine, hurt, negative things, but also good things and fortune to people. He does all these things, and that's a no-brainer because He is God; He made everything. So, this is how He is - He is no joke, and one would best be at His side and do what He wants. So, it's between these three possibilities.
The mystical experiences / magical experiences she discusses remind me of things I've experienced while doing meditation and psychedelic drugs. At one point in my life, that led me to look into Buddhism. Really cool to hear these things brought up on this channel, which has always seemed to focus on more analytic philosophy and less on "spirituality" as it were. I've always had the thought that these experiences tie into the way we can get our mind to just experience the world as it is, before its filtered through our ego and thoughts. What Sartre would call the "in-itself." When we can exist at that "base level" of experience, we can kind of fall into the world and have these cool experiences. This is what I've seen meditation do, psychedelics do, or even getting in the "zone" with activities like skiing or playing music. I've always wondered if that is also what Christians are experiencing while feeling the "Holy Spirit" or whatnot. Just different ways of finding or expressing the same thing.
@@mindlander Yes, but I don't need to do daily exercises to maintain my beliefs, unlike these evangelicals she describes, and unlike the characters in 1984. If you have to mindfuck yourself everyday to maintain your beliefs, then we are not the same.
I absolutely loooved this conversation! I am particularly curious if our imagination is a fully limited expression of something already pre-programmed (that is if every possible dream or thought is limited to the mathematical patterns of the universe--sort of like AI altering and reproducing art based off of actual human renderings that preexist its capabilities--so that every religious concept is a rendering based on pre-programmed elements of reality) or if our imagination can add something to existence that isn't there before and can actually change reality (like a reverse "black hole" causing other patterns to enter our reality) and thereby turning semi-fictive notions into generators of evolution.
Very interesting discussion- the discussion of play was fascinating and well-motivated (even if folks might take offense). The discussion of Rabbi Schneerson was a bit fractured, even cringey, which may have come from it being more about hearsay than research. There are a variety of views in the continuing Lubavitcher community, but all nuance was lost in the discussion presenting its beliefs as monolithic. The analogy to Elijah, presented in passing, was a good one: many might BEHAVE as if Elijah is at the door (he doesn’t accept water, BTW), and invite him in for wine and to sing his praises, but few across Jewish practice believe he’s actually, literally there for the evening.
Her description of the Sekmet story reminds me of people who play Dungeons and Dragons. The more the group builds the story, the more the story "lives".
Very interesting stuff. I tend to feel that spiritual experiences are best explained in a psychological sociological and scientific (specifically neuroscience) way, all together. I know placebo can be very powerful. it can create very potent experiences, some of them I had myself, which are not easily explained. The combination of imagination and belief gives the brain/mind the ability to create various unusual(in comparison to the modern psyche) experiences that feel very real. It is a very real phenomenon that can have actual benefits but says nothing about the objective realism of nature. you experience God but it doesn’t mean God is real in an objective sense.
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes gives the best descriptive etiology of religious phenomenology I've ever read. Everyone should check it out.
Bart is a legend and really loved your talks with him in one of your last episodes. I am sure this one is going to be as engaging as that one. I have also started a little bit of activism myself by making videos reviewing debates and ideas that don't gel all that well in 21st century, mostly pertaining to Islam.
21 century isn't a yardstick for the human endeavours. Someone in 100 years time may possibly review your comment, make conclusion that your statement is outdated and not in step with their own sensibilities. Humanistic progress is nothing more than a word view akin to religion, it's religion by other means.
@@khaderlander2429 yes indeed, not a yardstick. But you yourself answered the reason why I critique a 2 millennia old ideology (Christianity) or a 7th century ideology (Islam). Also, how is humanistic progress a worldview akin to religion? Humanistic progress has a tangible and perceptible aspect to it, religions do not. Humanistic progress does not follow a rigid set of edicts just because it comes from a divine authority but rests its authenticity on ratiocination more often than not.
The most important question I have ever been asked is "so sky daddy did it?" . Asked by a research scientist. At first I thought it odd until I realised that tribalism wouldn't work if all people were non-lexical thinkers like myself and instantly wonder "what is belief?" Because it cannot be exhibited by example like an emotion, for example. If people didn't assume that others know my "motives" , they might realise that I have no faculty or belief, or reason. Which negates the need to have such faculties. Tribalism is phenomenally successful. Most scientists perceive me as religious, not because I am, but because I cannot be, which is unfathomable, lexically. I can model my cognition, there is no reasoning faculty, as use the innate differentiation base which is independent unless one can only perceive the lexical typology. There is no belief, or reason, and that is why we are have language, because it doesn't matter what I think, if there is a lexical theory which explain it . Side note, translating non-lexical thought has been my life's work, there is no peer. I cannot say that I have no faculty or reason without it being interpreted as my wanting to be right , right? That's it, right there, which is necessarily a delusion of insight . Can it be experimentally shown? Yes, but you cannot think your way out of the most successful evolutionary trait of our species, neither can I, but my thought it not expedited outwith the threshold of my perceptual apprehension. How do I know how other perceive me? I ask, but I can identify declarative-only belief as a product of my refusal to be certain. Evolution, that's all it is, you cannot overcome it, nor can I.
In you, O Lord, I have found my peace. O LORD, my heart is not proud, nor are my eyes haughty; I busy not myself with great things, nor with things too sublime for me." Ps 131 The scientific method has revealed many wonders of the natural world, but regarding wisdom it reveals nothing.
It's real weird when life imitates art, but I've seen it in the wrestling world before, when storylines become reality. That's how Triple H and Stephanie McMahon got together.
I only had one supernatural experience in my entire life. I cannot explain it other than I felt incredible peace. I never felt that again and I remained an Atheist for a while after that. However I would be lying if that experience ( + an extensive amount of research) didn’t factor into my being a devout Catholic today.
You are a devout Catholic? I am looking to convert to Catholicism myself. 😊I have had two religious experiences; I expect more to come in the future. It was profound peace, and I couldn't stop crying for about ten minutes both times.
Her main idea seems to be “we both know, and they know, it isn’t *really* true.” She seems to forget people die for these things. I would want to ask her how it is that we all know what people mean by “God” but disagree on his reality or character. Start there and then assess the character of the believers in whatever religious response to that general sense of God or gods. In other words, she’d be wiser to begin with the wisdom-who is wise and believable? What are they thinking and doing? What version of this “god” do they pursue? I don’t see how else she expects to arrive at the truth of anything. These aren’t just independent experiences we have; they’re ways of being in the world that shape our character, our morals, and whether we’d live by lies or truths. All “religions” are unequal in all of these ways!
I didn't get the impression she thought that at all. She explicitly made a distinction between beliefs, such as those held by one Jewish community in NY that believes their dead rabbi is still alive, where you are deliberately ignoring the experience of your senses and therefore it requires a large amount of cognitive dissonance to believe it, and beliefs in ancient dogma that don't result in such immediately apparent contradictions. She didn't seem to be implying at all that people don't truly believe this second sort of thing.
Why We Play We play to keep our minds from straying, To keep us from becoming just like them. The animals, who live and die without a reason, Who never know the joy of childhood dreams. We play to learn and grow and share, To make our lives more than just survival. To find our place in this great big world, And make a difference in the lives of others. We play to be free, to be ourselves, To let our imaginations run wild. To create worlds that are full of wonder, And to explore the possibilities of life. But when we stop playing, And realize our capacity of intelligence, We can work on sound applications To apply in the real world. Art can turn into reality, With the power of our minds, We can make a difference, And leave our mark on the world. So next time you feel like playing, Don't think of it as a waste of time. Remember, we play so we don't act like animals, And so we can live our lives to the fullest. And when you're ready to stop playing, Remember the lessons you've learned, And use your intelligence to make the world a better place.
Maybe people who go to a certain venue regularly for music concerts/band perforrmances and meet and mix with other regular goers has the same beneficial effect as religion.
Justice is built with human hands not just 'belief'. The material view is the correct one. And I don't think it's really true to say that the goals of faith necessarily make you a better person. Think about, not necessarily the deaths (Olive Cooke for example) but all those people who scar and destroy themselves during the course of their work mentally and physically. And what do those in charge say? You made the choice and it was good for you spiritually. And the liberal or the paternalist might say "I can fix you". But all of this comes down to enforced ignorance and delusion. For humanity to escape this trap they have to be aware of the cage.
Fact of reality is that an imagined being is not. Fact of reality, the dead are not being. Imparting a notion of reality onto an imaginary construct is a misunderstanding of everything else.
Students shared "i" AM will say, Lord 99 positions in FRONT of thee! Who is missing? Lord HE is working! He never stop, He never stop, He never stop working!
In the very beginning, before we were exposed to the environment, any religion, or philosophical beliefs, we inherently thought or believed that there was something bigger than us and that something existed beyond the physical world. We are also somehow born with a sense of morality; we can distinguish between good and bad. I believe that we took this nature within us and created religions out of it. Let's face it, all religions are based on these facts. It's like we see birds and we made planes; we see animals fight and we made martial arts; we see birds sing and we made music. We see this nature in us and invented religion. The fact that these religions have both good and bad in them strengthens the idea that they are human-made, not something so perfect that it could be called God, Allah, Shiva, Buddha, or whatever. Well, that's just my opinion
While there is no doubt an element of shared pretense in some forms of religiosity, perhaps especially fundamentalism and cults, it does not account for all manifestations of religion. Believing in a Creator-God as the uncaused cause,/unmoved mover or the eternal significance of moral acts is a long way from bathing Teddy.
I appreciate how you invite your guests to explain their subject matter, rather than explaining it for or to them.
This was such a good podcast. I was a charismatic Christian minister for about 15 years, so I have first hand experience in all of this. For me, the first time I believed I was hearing the voice of God was during a particularly stressful time in my life. I had just started high school, didn’t fit in, and didn’t really have any friends.
I was raised in the Church and while I believed in it, I never took it that seriously. Plus I had a strong desire to do something that really mattered. So one day when I was 15 as I was just praying, I felt like God asked me “If you could do anything for me, what would it be”. And instantly I said “a prophet” (because I loved the OT stories), and I heard God say, good because that’s what I’ve called you to be.
Now, no one had ever taught me how to do this this was completely on my own. I didn’t hear God speak audibly, I've never experienced that, but rather from within. But it didn’t feel like my normal mental process. It felt deeper and more powerful. That one experience started me on my journey and all I wanted to do was serve God.
Unfortunately for me, I soon found a very woo woo charismatic ministry online and I went through their training courses on how to be a prophet, attended conferences, and I learned a lot of different spiritual techniques, but all of them were about “tapping the inner rivers of life within you”. And I eventually became a minister in their organization.
While I had a lot of fun learning how to give prophetic words and interpret dreams and speak in tongues and interpret them, I also ended up making some really bad decisions based on that. From going into the ministry as a volunteer and taking on debt I had no way to repay because I believed God was going to provide. To not taking medicine because I believed with all my heart that God was going to heal me so I didn’t need to take it anymore.
The worst part was the anti-intellectualism. I had always been a bookwork and intellectually curious, but that was anathema to these people. I was constantly told “Get out of your head and into the Spirit!”. Yes, they were some guard rails such as saying that if any revelation doesn’t line up with the Bible, it’s either your mind or the devil, but in practice, everyone justified their relations even if it was against what the Bible actually said.
I was so naive, but years later what eventually started to break the delusion was I never got healed or experienced any real miracles. Instead every time I brought this up to my leaders, they said crap like “You just need to embrace your masculinity so God can heal your hormone disorder” or “It’s just a demon, you need to take authority over it” or “You need to deal with your sin”. All based on a vision, an inner impulse, or whatever bullshit. As you can imagine this is so ripe for abuse.
About 5 years ago when I had finally had enough I started looking at what other denominations teach and was shocked to find out that most Christians didn’t do half the stuff we did. And from there it was learning about evolution which was taboo and the real history of the Bible that caused me to loose my faith after many a sleepless night begging and pleading with God to show me he was real.
In retrospect, I think I was engaging in what Carl Jung called active imagination. Except I had the entire Bible and Christian lore as a feedstock for my imagination, and if I imagined something that the Bible taught, it reified my belief in God.
The worst was when I told everyone I didn’t believe in God anymore. Instead of talking about why, they just wanted to make me feel like a sinner for rejecting Jesus. It really was a cult I was in but it’s taken me a long time to admit that, because who wants to admit they were in a cult for 15 years?
Even in charismatic churches that aren’t cults, the level of fuckery I’ve seen is unbelievable. As TM Luhrman said, humans are complex and I’m sure sunk cost fallacy and not wanting to loose my friends who were all in the same ministry as I was, was a big part of why I stayed there for so long.
I will say that I don’t believe that a lot people who do this stuff are mentally ill but rather have an over active imagination, and a desire to experience God for real like supposedly the people did in the Bible stories. The lack of real tangible presence drove the desire to connect spiritually.
Also, one of the realizations I came to was that even if God’s spirit was communicating to my human spirit, and my spirit/soul was communicating to my brain, there is no way to tell if it’s not just all happening in the brain even if I did an MRI. God is supposed to be a spirit so by definition there is no way to prove that any revelation actually came from God.
While I was an atheist for a while after my reconversion, I have since found advaita vedanta, a monistic school of Hinduism very interesting. It may be that consciousness is a fundamental part of reality and not an emergent feature. But I don’t see how we can ever prove that. And trusting something you hear in your mind is not a recipe for success.
I’ll close with this. Since then I’ve tried psychedelics and it is truly amazing to me what the human mind can come up with. Altered states of consciousness are real, and ultimately I think that’s what spiritual experiences are. Now why a molecule like psilocybin or DMT can do that, I have no clue. These experiences of altered states can be powerful, but reason is the best path to truth.
You pretty much detail alot of the reasons why I also left Christianity. I often would say things in my testimony like "God healed me from depression." While, at the time, my spiritual experiences with Jesus did lift me out of depression, it was only *temporary.* I quickly fell back into it months later. And I'd also say "if only you could feel the Holy Spirit." Because whenever I'd read a powerful Bible verse or hear a powerful gospel song, I'd feel this warm tingly feeling and get goosebumps. I've since realized I can get that from so many other things. A relatable song, a powerful movie, a moving story, etc.
And finally, after talking to many people with schizophrenia, I realized how powerful the brain really is. Often times people with schizophrenia have hallucinations, delusions, and feelings that all lead them to believe in a weird narrative of the world. The mind is extremely powerful, and confirmation bias is intense.
I appreciate both of your responses. I’m a Catholic, so luckily I’ve never had to deal with any cultish anti-intellectualism. That’s the thing about many Protestant (or perhaps just charismatic) churches, most people who are part of them base their faith upon flimsy ground. I prefer to focus on arguments from God’s existence.
Also, a word on miracles. I’m not sure I understand why the absence of miracles in one’s life should count against God’s existence. It’s like saying that because you’ve never won the lottery, it mustn’t exist.
@@henryvdl3692 I have a lot of respect for Catholics, and when I was going through it I watched a lot of videos from Bishop Barron and they were very helpful.
You are right that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but at the same time Jesus pretty clearly says anything you ask me in my name, the Father will give you. That's pretty clear to me.
And I know all the usual qualifiers people say about not taking it literally, but if something so clear is open to interpretation, then everything else is too. Which is why unless God gives me the gift of faith, I just can't believe in it. But that's me, and not a standard anyone else has to follow.
@henryvdl3692 Oh man, well I regret to inform you then that the next generation of young Catholics, or as they like to call themselves "tradcaths" are full or anti-intellectualism. They are also extremely anti-semitic. It's very worrying.
I first believed in response to the gospel. I notice there was no mention of the gospel in your journey?
This is amazing! Dr. Luhrmann attended my church in Chicago for a time 20 years ago, to observe us. I really wish I would’ve engaged with her then. She’s been at this a long time, and really does her homework!
This was a really good guest Alex! I just added nearly all of her books to my wish list. And I'm definitely getting the book, "How God Becomes Real."
This was a deep conversation. I really enjoyed it and I didn't want the two of you to stop. It was that good. It felt like you two could have taken this conversation even deeper and covered so many areas of belief and what it is to experience these-for lack of a better word-mysteries.
Thank you for creating these type of conversations on your channel.
55:00 I loved hearing a skeptic recount her "mystical" experiences. I am no longer a christian, however i look back on some experiences i had when i was deeply involved in the religion and im still so perplexed by them, not necessarily by the cause of them but just the capacity for the experiences to feel so real and profound. I recall once listening to the bible on audio, i believe the book was leviticus, and it was like i became in a trance like state almost like a high. i look back and attribute that feeling of an almost hypnotized state to the repetitive nature of how certain parts of the bible were written.. but it was just so strange
the same feeling can be achieved in different cases that involve great personal value. For instance a certain song that is very personal can bring a euphoric “high” feeling when listening to it.
You hit the nail on the head.
Text can have a hypnotic effect on humans.
Music can have a hypnotic effect on humans.
Video can have a hypnotic effect on humans.
Reduce the inputs back to the mind, and one finds that all inputs are just frequencies.
Psychedelics would absolutely recreate all these experiences. It's all about brain chemistry when you get down to it. In the case of this guest the battery in her bag certainly short circuited with some conductive thing(s) in her bag. When batteries short they often get hot and melt/smoke. Most likely her feeling of energy was quite literally electric energy being discharged, luckily at a rate that wasn't harmful. Her mind was primed to expect that feeling from magic. This whole episode feels like an attempt to give some extra priority to these feelings of delusion. I'm personally happy to die slightly earlier with a clear mind rather than eek out a few more years lying to myself. Good guest/interview but the subject matter felt like it lacked the philosophical substance typically found here.
@@supercoleman44says someone who probably never took psychedelics. Because they absolutely don't have the same effect as an authentic religious experience.
I'm impressed by anyone who can become entranced by the book of Leviticus.
I was raised in fundamentalist christian religion and was devout. I attended services several times a week, studied the bible daily, prayed daily, preached the Good News, believed my purpose was to serve God, who was all loving. And yet, I never felt good about it, it never made sense, I was deeply unhappy, even suicidal as a devout, active Believer of n "all good god." Now, over a decade from deconstructing my faith, I am an atheist, agnostic, in that it matters not in my daily life if there is a god or not. I feel moire free and more at peace than ever. My physical health has also improved immeasurably.
On the one hand atheists take themselves too seriously because they believe they can judge God, while on the other they are not serious enough to be honest with themselves.
what about it didn't make sense?
@@ephs145 what about what didn't make sense?
@@SaffronHammer you said, "i never felt good about it, it never made sense"
@@ephs145 ah, the message of the bible being contradictory, hateful, bigoted, and unjust? Yes. What about it makes sense to you in the question I would ask. now that I am not longer indoctrinated to that belief system and can use my own reasoning and follow my loving heart I find it so puzzling how others find the message a good and loving one. But then I recall I was once one who was inculcated from birth to trust it above my own perfectly good logic and good heart....I am happy for those who find happiness and peace in its message, but I never did. To each their own,
Our desire to have faith in a loving god, is much like our experience of shared or even spontaneous laughter. Both come from our need to find relief from the anxieties and pains of existing and from our anxieties around our eventual non-existence.
Hi. Sounds like we both have found great insights in Terror Management Theory?
I am just reading Becker's "Denial of Death" at the moment and currently trying to clarify the mechanisms as precisely as I can. Your analogy is a good “test case” I think. However I am not sure eg whether the unconscious roots of laughter are indeed the same as existential terror. I have a vague memory that Freud thought laughter arose from the subversion of expectation. Is that the same process as repression?
I have found that TMT has sent me back (after many years) to trying to make sense of psychodynamic theory so comments like yours trigger more questions than answers at the moment.
@@martifingers The fact that you picked up on my possibly having been interested in Becker’s writings was eerily insightful. It just so happens, that I purchased a digital copy last month and have also been reading it from time to time.
I just think that regardless of their psychological roots, both laughter and the belief in an abstract or supernatural protector, serve as a balm for suffering. They both provide periodic (and in some cases, extended) relief from it.
Sometimes it’s worth laughing, not just at oneself, but at the absurdity of all existence. I mean whoever created the cosmos, must have been joking.
@@Ungrievable Ha! People who know me would have a wry smile about me being ascribed anything like clairvoyance!
Yes, the laughter thing is quite possibly central. For instance there are Buddhist teachings on how trainee monks can get trapped worrying about how they are not getting rid of their ego fast enough. The problem is, that worry is itself a sign of the ego. The solution apparently is to dissolve the contradiction in laughter.
I am interested though in the relationship between “instinctual” behaviour (ie genuine laughter) and the culturally constructed identities that form around existential anxiety. Of course this may not be the right way to formulate the problem but if Becker is onto something (and I think he was) phenomenon such as you mention should be explicable within the theory.
I cannot disagree with you about cosmic absurdity either...
This moved me deeply.
I feel like I have been searching for this knowledge for years, only to have it handed to me in the simplest clearest English.
Bringing in an anthropological approach that acknowledges how social we are and the role of our social behavior and religious practice if not belief. Just really thoughtful. Wonder if there is a gender split in listener reactions.
What do you mean by gender split in the reactions?
There seem to have been discussions in academia concerning differences in male and female ways of research (I’m not an academic), and I’m wondering if there is a split in academic reaction to her conclusions or approach that breaks along gender. In part, it would seem to fall under a discussion of the value of diversity.
@@andrewswenson6995 aaaa thankyou for the explanation
@@andrewswenson6995Makes sense, since hormones are "messengers", & the different messengers send different messages & so cause different outcomes, in body / mind..
😁☮️🌏
55:13 Human psychology and biology is primed for shared spiritual experience. Internal perception isn't reliable when we're a species capable of hallucinations and false experience.
Thank you our Beautiful Rachel for attending unto our OWN and having sincere conversations with my Host Alex!
Great episode. Another great person you should get on the show is Anna Della Subin. She wrote a book called Accidental Gods: On Men Unwittingly Turned Divine. Very fascinating read and would compliment this episode well.
Oh wow, the first woman to appear on this channel standalone (and the second overall after Rachel Oats). Don't think I was ever that excited for an episode
Exactly my thoughts! I was excited to see a woman here. 🤩💚
What is a woman?
@@jkm9332. The New Zealand 🇳🇿prime minister Chris hipkins can answer that question
@@jkm9332 Usually someone who uses she/her pronouns.
@@jkm9332depends what you mean by “what” - Jordan Peterson.
Thanks Alex. Yet another extremely instructive video. I don't know how you continually produce such interesting and informative videos. Ms T. M. Luhrmann's rationality and logical responses are appreciated.
Luhrmann's book is an excellent read. Thank you for the interview Alex.
I was literally thinking the other day how come there are barely women on this channel and here we go!
Does It matter as long as the topics are good? I do agree tho.
@@theultimatetactician1712 yes it does matter. watch the barbie movie.
N not only that but an actual Agnostic
Luhrmann's book really changed the way I look at the world. Fascinating.
Great guest. Very helpful insights from this extremely well informed acadaemic.
One small point about the "play" analogy. I am assuming Alex has not spend a lot of time playing with very little kids (maybe around 2-3?) but in my considerable experience (four grandsons etc.) there is a stage at which children will not be worried that you offer to eat the Playdo sausage roll. Or maybe it seems there is such a suspension of normal perception/cognition that it's simply not important whether you eat it "really" or not. The play analogy seems a good one...
Ms Luhrmann’s book is absolutely fabulous! Thanks for having her speak. 🙏🏽❤️
Free Palestine
This is an excellent thought-provoking conversation. It is this kind of scholarship that may eventually move humanity out of the darkness. Congrats Alex & Dr.Luhrmann. HOWEVER I would love to know what they think about the Turin Shroud.
I was about 6 when I tumbled down the concrete steps in front of our house. I knew Jesus loved me, yes I know for the Bible tells me so. I remember seeing the hat that my dad bought me, it was tumbling too and inside I could see the logo of an airplane and the blood. I couldn't scream. So I walked, then crawled up the dozen or so steps to the front door, asking Jesus for the blood to stop. It didn't stop but my mother wrapped me in a towel and a neighbor drove us to the hospital. I'm 78 now and I trust doctors. If Scotty, my friend next door had fallen I would have helped him. Scotty died at 40 of brain cancer. I would have helped him if I was Jesus but then neither of us are.
Not deep
@@thebacons5943You just reminded me of when I used to get hit by my dad for misbehaving. The child I was used to say "didn't hurt" when really it did.
@@colinriches1519 cringe
First time I heard her speak. Luhrmann is an anthropologist often cited, and she has interesting perspectives.
I believe there is something to spirit(uality) ever since I stumbled into a priest in Bali in a temple, who blessed me with rice and then wanted some money. I did not have time to process this, it was very fast. But after a few minutes, I felt my mind of state altered to a kind of deep peace. I concluded that it must have been something he did, not just something that I produced from the inside
49:29 Alex THIS is how to start a podcast. We need background on guests spoken given by them.
This interview is very interesting. I often wondered why people feel the need for a god to be true. I don't remember a time when I thought a god was needed, but I did look for evidence that, perhaps, there really was one. That search never uncovered any actual need or evidence of a reason one was actually needed. I am no longer searching, but I still wonder about why people seem to have a need for one - specific Religious variety notwithstanding.
I have known the Christian faith since my birth and I am wondering how people can live without knowing or wanting to know that there is a God.
I just don't get what makes people act morally if the outcome of this world is just nothing. What gives your life meaning besides someone who created life?
Maybe I just don't get it because I was raised like this. But I would be interested in what you think about this.
When I became a believer, I wasn't looking for God, in fact I was more of a de-facto atheist, although certainly not a strident one.
I became convinced pretty much overnight merely through casual reading of a book on esoteric Christianity.
@@jonasj2627 And I wonder why people need a god to be moral or have a need for a supernatural explanation of creation (all creation, not just life). Believing in magic (call it supernatural if you wish) is not an explanation of anything.
@@allenmarkham I would be more sympathetic to that argument, if Science had reached a stage where it could offer a conclusive explanation of the origins of the universe and life itself.
Put it another way - I think the credulity gap between belief in a God and belief in the scientific "explanation" - is very much overstated.
This is a fantastic episode. Great and new stuff to me about how people acted with that Rabbi, and the framework of religious practices as a kind of play-to-convince-ourselves-of-the-supernatural alongside others is really interesting and useful! Hearing about how people can believe in seeing someone after they're dead also goes a long way for me as a plausible explanation for the very weird stuff that happened when people reported Jesus's resurrection.
Brilliant conversation as always. Very interesting indeed. Thanks dude
As I was de-converting it became clear to me that a powerful argument agains God's existence is the way ministries rely on financial donations rather than divine providence.
If you recall the temptation in the desert - one of the responses of Jesus was "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God".
That statement could equally be written as "Man lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God - but also man needs bread".
This is a tacit acknowledgement by Jesus that in this earthly world - we do require material sustenance e.g. money. A faithful believer would not expect to find manna on the ground for their convenience - and by the same logic - nor should a church ministry.
I’ve found for myself and others in my family, their belief in God seems to involve more of a sacrifice of their own agency and as a result, health and wellness seems to fall by the wayside while there’s a distraction of God being “in control”. I’m confident I’ll live longer and happier now that I’ve reclaimed control over my life and figured out God doesn’t exist.
so excited to watch this
Can't wait to hear the conversation with Bernardo Kastrup, a slow and steady comparison of the reasoning behind physicalism versus the reasoning for analytical idealism.
Kastrup is deluded. Nothing of substance to his argument.
That would be an awesome conversation
Alex, this was great! You HAVE to talk to John Vervaeke
Loved this conversation!
I have tremendous respect for Alex and don’t know Luhrmann’s work outside of this, so want to communicate respect up front. But I wanted to offer some honest critique because I was quite baffled by the claims put forward here.
Luhrmann seemed to exhibit a lack of understanding of evangelical Christianity, a belief system she has reportedly studied - we don’t expect a just and loving world, but a broken one - thus not a tension as she claims. Our primary aim is not to create a more just world, but to be saved out of it. The fact we don’t pray for God to feed the dog for us is not at all out of a lack of genuine belief. Rather it is positive evidence for our belief in the Bible’s teachings on prayer - how we ought to pray, what we can expect God to answer and not answer, that being our personal butler is not among them. We also believe in a uniformity of cause and effect, which anticipates the order and natural goings on of a physical universe. I think a correct understanding is an important starting point here if one is going to make anthropological claims.
I’m also a bit surprised by Alex’s critique about twelve minutes in that people of religious faith really have to ‘effort’ to believe. To base a critique like this simply on Luhrmann’s anecdotal claims here seemed irresponsible. I don’t think that’s an accurate rendering of what’s happening. And a 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that only about 16% of the world is unaffiliated with any major religion. If about 85% or more of the population on this planet have some belief in the supernatural, this to me is pretty clear indication that belief in the supernatural is widely intuitive and not strained/forced (whether true or not)
Just a further point on the tone of a conversation like this… There is a clear bias of worldview and that’s fine, but the analysis of believers engaging in “play” like children is flatly condescending and I think betrays hubris. Since the physical world is given to reveal some deeply weird things to us: that dark energy and dark matter make up perhaps 95% of matter in the universe.. of which we know essentially nothing about, and that even within our atomic matter our bodies are primarily made of about 99.99999 empty space, that perhaps we live in one of infinity universes we can’t taste touch smell or see - I think we ought to approach conversations of the natural/supernatural and the nature of belief with far more of an open mind than seemed to be conveyed here.
Peace!
You can say willingness, faith and commitment makes a difference but the religious person is still putting effort in, even if voluntarily.
So glad to hear these ideas articulated. I fall under the experiential category. I’m someone who is more susceptible to still be living in a book days after reading it. I didn’t grow up religious. At age 26, I had a ‘mystical’ experience outside of my mind that I perceived without a doubt was god speaking to me directly. It’s comforting to hear that there are more people going through this same journey.
I’d be curious to hear the percentage of people who have pursued Christianity with part of their intention coupled with an interest in a romantic partner who grew up in Christianity. (I fall under this category if you didn’t guess 😆)
I love her concept of “paracosom” where the “faithful” imagine living in a different cosmos or reality. My take on this, however, is that what we call objective reality is also a paracosom. It is just that those supporting it possess sufficient power and authority to make it consensual reality for society as a whole.
No, our brain is making most of the job regardless of social irrationality. Our senses are limited in terms of light and sound perception as I’m sure you know. Existence is weird in this reality made of particles.
@@LeanAndMean44 Particles are a mental construct we use to make sense of reality.
Finally someone who takes religion from the antropology point of view. For my way of seeing, history and antropology are the best ways to explain why all gods are basically the same and why they are all made by humans and for humans.
Finally? Hmmmm youre not very well read.
@@zapkvr0101Apologies Mr widely read
Maybe of interest. A good look at religion from shamanism to now: How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, by Robin Dunbar
44:45 I think "religion makes you healthier" has to do with placebo effect. The placebo effect is when a person's physical or mental health appears to improve after taking a placebo or 'dummy' treatment, so people by believing religion make them healthier, it possibly will do
I found her book "When God Talks Back" (2012) really enjoyable, thought provoking and absorbing. Recommended.
She's so on point. I can't help to notice that she looks a little like Jamie Lee Curtis
Such captivating discussion and analogies. The play make believe thing really is great. What i wish gets discussed along this is the cruelty and boredom of existence! When you realize we are borne with the code of existing for ever at all costs, the intensity of fear and desire, it is easy to understand why one can only make this tolerable through fantasies which fill the gap so well they are as real as anything. Yes you can do with all that and still be okay like japanese or scandinavian societies but you have to understand they also need netflix and alcohol to help them cast away their cares and worries even if for a moment. People with days full of devotional practices have much less inclination or time for netflix and alcohol cos oblivion is provided for them in different packages through different means.
Existence is beautiful though...?
@@Coolerranch1 glad you find it beautiful
@@Coolerranch1 the perpetual fear of harm to loved ones is sufficient to understand the terms of existence
Very based and true
@@Coolerranch1 life needs constant maintenance, its beem described as a pendulum swinging between suffering or boredom. Now compare that to having an all knowing all powerful big brother who is always in your favor, gives you what you really need at the right time, hears you before you ask and loves you and protects you eternally and unconditionally forever.
Best interview in a long time 👍
💤💤: This episode will help the people who can't sleep otherwise to 💤💤 peacefully while listening to the lady! 🤓
I also think Its interesting that people always seem to have written a book when appearing on podcasts
St. Luke
Saint of the Day
St. Luke the Evangelist (1st c.) was a well-educated Greek physician and a native of Antioch in Syria. He was a follower of St. Paul the Apostle and spent most of his life evangelizing with him in Asia Minor up until the time of Paul’s martyrdom in Rome. Luke wrote a canonical account of his apostolic journeys with Paul (the Book of Acts) as well as a biography on the life of Christ (the Gospel of Luke). The two books of Luke’s Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles were originally a single work. The intimate accounts contained in Luke’s gospel of the early years of Christ’s life (the Visitation, the Nativity, the Presentation, etc.) lead many scholars to believe that one of the eyewitnesses he interviewed was the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. According to tradition he was also a skilled artist and painted the first icons of Our Lady with the Child Jesus. Several of these icons are still venerated today, the most famous of which hangs in the Church of St. Mary Major in Rome. St. Luke is the patron saint of many trades including artists, painters, doctors, surgeons, and bachelors. His feast day is October 18th.
it is easy to trust God when things are going good.
Thoroughly enjoyed this bro. Well worth the wait 😏
I agree with Luhrmann, that people who have a connection with beliefs, seem to be healthier overall,both physically and mentally. There is an intrinsic effect, the more we shed our desires the more we behave.I think, it is this part that ancient writers,or the story of God, has some moral/ethical value against our nature.
An anthropological is a welcome perspective. Speaking of all of these radically different religions in English, not their native historical situation, language, and culture creates an illusion of transparency. Without understanding the sociological, linguistic, geographical, psychological, and other social forces that birthed them it's not even proper to say you understand any of them.
Very interesting conversation. This reminded me of going to the movies where people gather and for an hour or two are completely absorbed in the story and soundtrack. For that time, we all pretend to be in a different place at the border of reality and imagination. I reckon this is similar to what a child experiences during play with an imaginary friend or an imaginary burger.
_The Mists of Avalon_ is Marion Eleanor Zimmer Bradley's retelling of the Arthurian legends. Isaac Asimov called it "compelling" (whatever that means). At seventeen, I enjoyed it, even found it a bit enlightening about religion. I wonder what I would think of it twenty-odd years later.
Every hospital should have two doors at the entrance. One to the ER and the other to the Chapel. Choose only one. This tells you what you truly trust in.
I always say there's a glaringly obvious reason ambulances don't take people to churches and temples.
I like your two-doors illustration. Definitely gonna use that.
It's interesting about the absorption thing, because I am in Christ, but I feel like I'm totally the opposite to what you've described. I tend to very much dislike movies, because I generally find the characters unbelievable. When watching a movie, I often think "if that was a real person, they would never say/do such a thing, that's just ridiculous". I would much rather and find great joy in talking to people in real life. I love the rawness of real interactions. The awkwardness, the connection, the meaning.
I would consider myself more logical than creative in temperament (I do IT work), and I haven't had any mystical experiences/visions. What draws me to God isn't mystical experiences (although I strongly believe they are possible), but an almost logical understanding of my relationship with him. He's not out to judge me, punish me, or be angry with me, but he is out to forgive me, heal me, bless me and exalt me in Christ, all because of his love for me.
Hi eltyo340. Can you say how you understand God is NOT out to judge or punish? Are you a Universalist? Also (and I am not trying to prove you wrong here) but perhaps we both would agree that "almost logical" is a rather odd description?
@@martifingers He's not out to judge *me* because I'm in Christ. All of my sins, past, present and future were judged and punished on the body of Christ at the cross.
Now those in Christ will have to stand before Jesus on the Bema seat, but this is for our rewards, not for judgement of our sins.
As for the logical part, that's how I came to Christ. I needed to know these things before I could possibly enter into a relationship with God.
When you first meet someone, do you love them straight away? No, you have to find out if they're genuine, whether or not they judge you or accept you, whether or not they are kind and gracious to you, whether they hold grudges against you, etc etc. So I had to know all these things about God, logically, before I could give my heart to him.
Now because there's an abundance of terrible teaching out in the world, you often have to come back to the simple truths and remind yourself (almost logically), God is for me, not against me.
You've created that God for yourself, and your interactions with it are actually your interactions with your own thoughts. Not judging. I'm former lifelong clergy myself. Read Prof. Luhrmann's book and you'll see where I'm coming from - anthropology, neuroscience. Good stuff!
@@woodygilson3465 yeah brother, I've had those doubts myself. Is it all some psychological trick I'm pulling on myself?
I think no because it's changed my life in an extremely positive way, and I struggle to believe that a lie could do that. Or that it's some other truth that I could've gotten to by bypassing all the truths in the Bible. But who knows! Even the Bible says now we know in part :)
@@eltyo340 Losing my faith was abrupt and world-shattering. No drama, just a sudden realization. I struggled to find my footing for two of the three years since. I'll say this much though - if you want to understand the mind, you have to understand the brain. After all, it's everything you are. Neuroscience. You'd be surprised what doctors and scientists know about the brain. In short, our brains are about as reliable as a guilty death row inmate. It's literally why the scientific method and peer review exist.
Fascinating. Thanks for this insight.❤
Alex you asked such a good question at 28:57! Was that prepared or did you think of that on the spot?
She mentioned serious play several minutes earlier and it’s a common concept in psychology, so I’d say it was both in response and at least part of his preparation. It was just such an opportune moment & well taken!
Great conversation!
Correlation is not Causation; healthier people are more able to attend social gatherings weekly.
I found this very interesting. I discovered many of the more unusual experiences I had over the years were due to Idiopathic Hypersomnia, having episodes of peculiar states of conciouseness gave rise to hallucinations, dreams superimposed on my normal vision. some of the weirder episodes would be passing out while working at my desk and dreaming exactly what i was actually doing then waking thinking i just nodded of but to discover later to have missed a chunk of a report etc that I had dreampt I had typed this mostly dissapeared with medication.
I often wonder if some of the expeiriences may just be down to brain chemistry.
I had something similar. I was a senior in high school and had just gotten home from a class trip D.C. it was after midnight and I fell asleep immediately only to wake up and notice I couldn't move, I could open by eyes but I was very disoriented. I feel there was Presence. I tried to scream, that didn't work either. That lasted... for a few minutes or who knows how long. Then it stopped, I could move but I was exhausted. I decide to sleep and I did. When I woke up, I remember all that happened. What happened was mystery, not visit from E.T. or an angel. Instead, I thought medical, but I felt fine. I was 18, it was May 1963 and I was an atheist, thougth I don't think I'd heard that word. It was a Mystery. I didn't know. And over the years this happend 10 times more or less. It stopped when I was about 40. I had heard the term Night Terrors, that sounded like my experience. Maybe it was a version of your "Hypersomnia". I was in REM sleep and paralyzed.... but not fully asleep. So to a degree I still have a Mystery. I prefer that to pretending to understand what I don't actually understand.
@@dimbulb23 indeed part of the giveaway for me is the effect on me the meds have, previous meds had made things worse, the thing with me is my symptoms got steadily worse year on year until it was pronounced enough to register on scans I did the whole sleep clinic monitoring thing they discovered i drop rapidly to REM and back out in the sleep period and that no matter how much sleep I get my body behaves as if its tired. It is likely linked to my autism, but ne of the other parts of the package is experiencing Synasthesia, I also studied sensory science as part of my degree an its quite clear there are plenty of parts that are not fully understood but are likely purely chemical.
7:31 asking someone to do everything for you all the time is no way to have a loving relationship
This was so interesting! I'd love to see more videos of scientists, who study why people believe.
Daily Verse
"Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
-Matthew 5:11-12
Quote of the Day
"Faith and love are like the blind man’s guides. They will lead you along a path unknown to you, to the place where God is hidden."
-St. John of the Cross
Great discussion. Thank you
Gospel
Jn 12:24-26
Jesus said to his disciples:
"Amen, amen, I say to you,
unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies,
it remains just a grain of wheat;
but if it dies, it produces much fruit.
Whoever loves his life loses it,
and whoever hates his life in this world
will preserve it for eternal life.
Whoever serves me must follow me,
and where I am, there also will my servant be.
The Father will honor whoever serves me."
"What does the prince of this world, the devil, tell us? Hang on to yourself. Aggrandize yourself. Stay safe, protected. But Jesus has come to throw out that prince, that principle. He proposes himself as the new prince. His sign is the sign of the cross, the death that leads to transfiguration: “Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.”
Bishop Robert Barron "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/10/23)"
My elderly neighbors are not religious, but believe there is a god and cling to the idea of “just in case”
Love this episode! brilliant! 😍🤩
Really fascinating discussion. On the questions about types of people who are more or less likely to have belief, you may wanna chat with Matt Baker of the RUclips channel Useful Charts. He recently finished his thesis on these types of questions.
Thanks yo
Enjoyed this very much.
24:00 is the kid not confused that there is imaginary water on the floor? or not? seems important. I did not understand it, nor could i find any Paul Harris reference on it. Was this an analogy?
Absolutely fantastic
I really enjoyed this video, thanks!
Interesting conversation
God, it has been observed, is that in which we live, and move, and have our being. The question then becomes, as framed by Schweitzer, how one takes this living and moving and being, this experience of existence, whether as a miracle or simply as a given fact. In the broadest, most universal sense, this defines the dividing line between believers and nonbelievers.
I did a comment In response to a comment I saw that said that God making himself known would go against free will, I said: It makes no sense because that has already happened when Jesus walked and performed all the miracles. So, why was it okay then and not now? Why would Jesus not come into the dream of everyone in existence right now simultaneously, so that every human on earth would talk about having the same dream? The argument being, 'Yeah, but some people would still not believe, so what's the point?' I would say THERE is a point because even though many still would not believe after such a dream (even though everyone on earth had it at the same time, but 1 or 2 days apart), that would still rescue many millions more humans who did believe but not 100%-because that would be the final nail in the coffin to make them 100% believers, just as he did when he walked the earth. It makes no sense why he would not do such a thing today
What makes no sense is how atheist think God "should" act so they can finally believe.
@@MrSeedi76 I'm not an unbeliever; I'm still searching. I'm leaning on Jesus, but I'm not fully convinced and have some doubts. One of them is what I said here. There are only three possibilities for me:
1. God does not exist.
2. God does exist, but it's not what we think.
3. It really is the biblical God, and He does what He wants to do. This is how He is, and He favors some people while others not. However, at the same time, He is good enough to give everyone a chance by sending Jesus. Before, we were not chosen, but now, even the non-chosen ones have a chance. He even said it himself that He gives famine, hurt, negative things, but also good things and fortune to people. He does all these things, and that's a no-brainer because He is God; He made everything. So, this is how He is - He is no joke, and one would best be at His side and do what He wants. So, it's between these three possibilities.
@@MrSeedi76atheists don’t believe in god. they don’t think god should or would do anything.
The mystical experiences / magical experiences she discusses remind me of things I've experienced while doing meditation and psychedelic drugs. At one point in my life, that led me to look into Buddhism. Really cool to hear these things brought up on this channel, which has always seemed to focus on more analytic philosophy and less on "spirituality" as it were. I've always had the thought that these experiences tie into the way we can get our mind to just experience the world as it is, before its filtered through our ego and thoughts. What Sartre would call the "in-itself." When we can exist at that "base level" of experience, we can kind of fall into the world and have these cool experiences. This is what I've seen meditation do, psychedelics do, or even getting in the "zone" with activities like skiing or playing music. I've always wondered if that is also what Christians are experiencing while feeling the "Holy Spirit" or whatnot. Just different ways of finding or expressing the same thing.
13:05 - This sounds like 1984: trying to convince yourself that something non-manifest in reality is still true. I.e. delusional.
You sound like you know what's true, like those you ridicule.
@@mindlander Yes, but I don't need to do daily exercises to maintain my beliefs, unlike these evangelicals she describes, and unlike the characters in 1984. If you have to mindfuck yourself everyday to maintain your beliefs, then we are not the same.
I absolutely loooved this conversation! I am particularly curious if our imagination is a fully limited expression of something already pre-programmed (that is if every possible dream or thought is limited to the mathematical patterns of the universe--sort of like AI altering and reproducing art based off of actual human renderings that preexist its capabilities--so that every religious concept is a rendering based on pre-programmed elements of reality) or if our imagination can add something to existence that isn't there before and can actually change reality (like a reverse "black hole" causing other patterns to enter our reality) and thereby turning semi-fictive notions into generators of evolution.
Very interesting discussion- the discussion of play was fascinating and well-motivated (even if folks might take offense). The discussion of Rabbi Schneerson was a bit fractured, even cringey, which may have come from it being more about hearsay than research. There are a variety of views in the continuing Lubavitcher community, but all nuance was lost in the discussion presenting its beliefs as monolithic. The analogy to Elijah, presented in passing, was a good one: many might BEHAVE as if Elijah is at the door (he doesn’t accept water, BTW), and invite him in for wine and to sing his praises, but few across Jewish practice believe he’s actually, literally there for the evening.
Her description of the Sekmet story reminds me of people who play Dungeons and Dragons. The more the group builds the story, the more the story "lives".
We all KNOW God is actually Morgan Freeman (I saw the movie) lol 😉
We all know that the Almighty is a Trans Woman crucified for cisgender people's sins, silly. 💅
Very interesting stuff. I tend to feel that spiritual experiences are best explained in a psychological sociological and scientific (specifically neuroscience) way, all together. I know placebo can be very powerful. it can create very potent experiences, some of them I had myself, which are not easily explained. The combination of imagination and belief gives the brain/mind the ability to create various unusual(in comparison to the modern psyche) experiences that feel very real. It is a very real phenomenon that can have actual benefits but says nothing about the objective realism of nature. you experience God but it doesn’t mean God is real in an objective sense.
And when push comes to shove..It's obviously clear that "what matters" is more important than "matter"
Their experience is no more profound than those believers of Yang Xiangbin who claims to be the Christ that has returned to earth as a Chinese woman.
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes gives the best descriptive etiology of religious phenomenology I've ever read. Everyone should check it out.
Agreed: re-reading it myself now.
Bart is a legend and really loved your talks with him in one of your last episodes. I am sure this one is going to be as engaging as that one.
I have also started a little bit of activism myself by making videos reviewing debates and ideas that don't gel all that well in 21st century, mostly pertaining to Islam.
21 century isn't a yardstick for the human endeavours. Someone in 100 years time may possibly review your comment, make conclusion that your statement is outdated and not in step with their own sensibilities. Humanistic progress is nothing more than a word view akin to religion, it's religion by other means.
Did you study Islam before you started making your videos?
@@khaderlander2429 yes indeed, not a yardstick. But you yourself answered the reason why I critique a 2 millennia old ideology (Christianity) or a 7th century ideology (Islam).
Also, how is humanistic progress a worldview akin to religion? Humanistic progress has a tangible and perceptible aspect to it, religions do not. Humanistic progress does not follow a rigid set of edicts just because it comes from a divine authority but rests its authenticity on ratiocination more often than not.
The most important question I have ever been asked is "so sky daddy did it?" . Asked by a research scientist. At first I thought it odd until I realised that tribalism wouldn't work if all people were non-lexical thinkers like myself and instantly wonder "what is belief?" Because it cannot be exhibited by example like an emotion, for example. If people didn't assume that others know my "motives" , they might realise that I have no faculty or belief, or reason. Which negates the need to have such faculties. Tribalism is phenomenally successful. Most scientists perceive me as religious, not because I am, but because I cannot be, which is unfathomable, lexically. I can model my cognition, there is no reasoning faculty, as use the innate differentiation base which is independent unless one can only perceive the lexical typology. There is no belief, or reason, and that is why we are have language, because it doesn't matter what I think, if there is a lexical theory which explain it . Side note, translating non-lexical thought has been my life's work, there is no peer. I cannot say that I have no faculty or reason without it being interpreted as my wanting to be right , right? That's it, right there, which is necessarily a delusion of insight . Can it be experimentally shown? Yes, but you cannot think your way out of the most successful evolutionary trait of our species, neither can I, but my thought it not expedited outwith the threshold of my perceptual apprehension. How do I know how other perceive me? I ask, but I can identify declarative-only belief as a product of my refusal to be certain. Evolution, that's all it is, you cannot overcome it, nor can I.
In you, O Lord, I have found my peace.
O LORD, my heart is not proud,
nor are my eyes haughty;
I busy not myself with great things,
nor with things too sublime for me."
Ps 131
The scientific method has revealed many wonders of the natural world, but regarding wisdom it reveals nothing.
It's real weird when life imitates art, but I've seen it in the wrestling world before, when storylines become reality. That's how Triple H and Stephanie McMahon got together.
I only had one supernatural experience in my entire life. I cannot explain it other than I felt incredible peace. I never felt that again and I remained an Atheist for a while after that. However I would be lying if that experience ( + an extensive amount of research) didn’t factor into my being a devout Catholic today.
You are a devout Catholic? I am looking to convert to Catholicism myself. 😊I have had two religious experiences; I expect more to come in the future. It was profound peace, and I couldn't stop crying for about ten minutes both times.
When are we getting Sheldon Solomon on here?
Totally. Sheldon has been moving in very interesting ways recently so I hope he and Alex could concentrate on the religious implications of TMT.
Her main idea seems to be “we both know, and they know, it isn’t *really* true.” She seems to forget people die for these things. I would want to ask her how it is that we all know what people mean by “God” but disagree on his reality or character. Start there and then assess the character of the believers in whatever religious response to that general sense of God or gods. In other words, she’d be wiser to begin with the wisdom-who is wise and believable? What are they thinking and doing? What version of this “god” do they pursue? I don’t see how else she expects to arrive at the truth of anything. These aren’t just independent experiences we have; they’re ways of being in the world that shape our character, our morals, and whether we’d live by lies or truths. All “religions” are unequal in all of these ways!
I didn't get the impression she thought that at all. She explicitly made a distinction between beliefs, such as those held by one Jewish community in NY that believes their dead rabbi is still alive, where you are deliberately ignoring the experience of your senses and therefore it requires a large amount of cognitive dissonance to believe it, and beliefs in ancient dogma that don't result in such immediately apparent contradictions. She didn't seem to be implying at all that people don't truly believe this second sort of thing.
Why We Play
We play to keep our minds from straying,
To keep us from becoming just like them.
The animals, who live and die without a reason,
Who never know the joy of childhood dreams.
We play to learn and grow and share,
To make our lives more than just survival.
To find our place in this great big world,
And make a difference in the lives of others.
We play to be free, to be ourselves,
To let our imaginations run wild.
To create worlds that are full of wonder,
And to explore the possibilities of life.
But when we stop playing,
And realize our capacity of intelligence,
We can work on sound applications
To apply in the real world.
Art can turn into reality,
With the power of our minds,
We can make a difference,
And leave our mark on the world.
So next time you feel like playing,
Don't think of it as a waste of time.
Remember, we play so we don't act like animals,
And so we can live our lives to the fullest.
And when you're ready to stop playing,
Remember the lessons you've learned,
And use your intelligence to make the world a better place.
Maybe people who go to a certain venue regularly for music concerts/band perforrmances and meet and mix with other regular goers has the same beneficial effect as religion.
Justice is built with human hands not just 'belief'.
The material view is the correct one. And I don't think it's really true to say that the goals of faith necessarily make you a better person.
Think about, not necessarily the deaths (Olive Cooke for example) but all those people who scar and destroy themselves during the course of their work mentally and physically.
And what do those in charge say? You made the choice and it was good for you spiritually. And the liberal or the paternalist might say "I can fix you".
But all of this comes down to enforced ignorance and delusion. For humanity to escape this trap they have to be aware of the cage.
Fact of reality is that an imagined being is not. Fact of reality, the dead are not being.
Imparting a notion of reality onto an imaginary construct is a misunderstanding of everything else.
Students shared "i" AM will say, Lord 99 positions in FRONT of thee! Who is missing? Lord HE is working! He never stop, He never stop, He never stop working!
Shared "i" AM professors come here in front and remind concerning. What is a job? What is work?
In the very beginning, before we were exposed to the environment, any religion, or philosophical beliefs, we inherently thought or believed that there was something bigger than us and that something existed beyond the physical world. We are also somehow born with a sense of morality; we can distinguish between good and bad. I believe that we took this nature within us and created religions out of it. Let's face it, all religions are based on these facts. It's like we see birds and we made planes; we see animals fight and we made martial arts; we see birds sing and we made music. We see this nature in us and invented religion. The fact that these religions have both good and bad in them strengthens the idea that they are human-made, not something so perfect that it could be called God, Allah, Shiva, Buddha, or whatever. Well, that's just my opinion
Getting at the essence of what it means to be human.
My profound religious with God and Jesus experience happened out of the blue... not expected at all.
How can you not put her name in either the title or the description? I have to watch the first several minutes to even find out who she is
Paraphrasing W.I. Thomas, Things are real to the extent that people define them as real, and they become real in their consequences.
While there is no doubt an element of shared pretense in some forms of religiosity, perhaps especially fundamentalism and cults, it does not account for all manifestations of religion. Believing in a Creator-God as the uncaused cause,/unmoved mover or the eternal significance of moral acts is a long way from bathing Teddy.