One of the first points of Anarchism is "The system exists to protect itself" Point 2 "No matter how benevolent the institution is, the moment it puts itself's survival ahead of its benevolent values, it begins to unravel, and focus on protecting itself".
I spoke with that same General Authority in his home for about 3 hours in 2012 with three of my friends. It was an earth-shattering conversation, and I've wished for years that I could share everything I remember that he shared with us. He did ask us to not disclose his identity because - he feared for his life -
Pure hyperbole from a teller of folktales. As someone who has spent real time with upper-echelon LDS leaders, the idea of them assassinating someone made me chuckle (Roberts is one of my heroes, incidentally. But it goes both ways: ex-Mormons who tell wide-eyed stories of witnessing miraculous healings while in the church, are often just as likely to tell wide-eyed stories of ultrajudicial punishment & other savory crimes when out of it.) @@joshpowell2194
I read the book, Studies of the Book of Mormon, about 15 years ago and thought it was just the best and so needed. I admire B. H. Roberts; he was a great thinker and seeker of truth. But it seems that to leaders of the Mormon church "truth" comes much farther down the list, somewhere after "power", money and ego. Thank you so much, John Dehlin, and Shannon. I am reading your thesis now, Shannon. And, yes, I hope the book does get written.
John, I have been watching your podcast for a few years now and this has to be the best interview yet, not to take anything away from your other guests. I am not a Mormon but one of my best friends from childhood converted over 30 years ago and I have tried over the years to open her eyes to the truth but gave up because she just wasn’t interested in truth. After realizing I can’t do anything I have just loved on her and her family and I wait for the day that any of them start to question. This episode is brilliant. I’ll have to watch it repeatedly to absorb it all. Bravo to Shannon and bless you for your scholarship and bravery!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏❤️❤️❤️
I've tried all my life to give LDS Church the benefit of the doubt but in my mind, this is another nail in a coffin that illustrates the need for a wake and funeral for the LDS Church. This information is more than damning or disappointing, but in the very words of Gordon B. Hinkley If the Book of Mormon is not historically true then the current Church should be the last domino to fall among so many representing long-standing lies in need of burial.
I have been struggling with the Church for a while, piling things on the proverbial shelf....and then this episode came along and BROKE MY SHELF! Thanks so much John and Shannon for this episode! I feel FREE for the first time many, many years. THANKS TO YOU BOTH!!!!
I've listened to Mormon Stories for years and appreciate Johns approach and guests. I watched the transition from the more innocent early years to where we are now and this is the first I've felt prompted to respond. At age 14 I read "No Man Knows My History", my first venture into anti- Mormonism. My father being a Bishop at the time, one for 21 years, I shook he and my converted Catholic mother up with my inquiring questioning over the course of many months & years. From that book by the Tanner's I went on to other anti-Mormon books. My faith was chinked and damaged but I continued to attend church and seminary. Study my scriptures, say my prayers and pray for guidance. John mentioned a basic tenant the LDS faith teaches is we refer to the Gospel as the " Plan of Happiness"....as the 3rd child of 12 growing up in an LDS home in the 50's & 60's in a Little town in Oregon I can attest to you it was a bit of heaven on Earth. Living the gospel did bring happiness into our home and lives. No damaging affects what so ever from practicing so called Mormonism. As for my anti-Mormon forays, it continues time to time. My faith was actually strengthened once broken and mended. But one cannot dismiss the importance of prayer and a spiritual witness of the Holy Ghost when seeking a testimony of Jesus Christ and this Church. What grounds me though is the Book of Mormon. You may talk of it not being a historical document or being channeled or otherwise conjured up, but when I read it, and time and time again receive a spiritual witness of its divine Truth, I cannot deny or denounce it's authenticity. Since it only bares witness that Jesus is the Christ of the whole world and the Son of God and testifies of good things, then it must be good in the eyes of God. Since those early years of the 60's two of my 12 siblings have more less less left the church...both being excommunicated. Both are very much loved and accepted by the family. Both have struggled far more in their personal and family lives than those within the church. I'm just saying, the emperical evidence is there, living gospel principles brings a greater measure of happiness. Not that we all haven't experienced and suffered setbacks but not near the degree they who are outside the church, at least in our family, have. I must disagree with many of the assertions and conclusions John and Shannon have come to regarding the Brethren, specifically the First Presidency and quorum of apostles.....that they know the Church to based on falsehoods but continue the course for whatever reasons.....Absolutely Not! I've been previleged over the years to have some acquaintance with General Authorities....one President of the church, a family member,(cousin of my father)and several members of the First Quorum of the 70. All I have known have been true believers. Highly educated men from all walks of life. From the fields of Science, Law, Industry and Education. I can assure you no one in the apostleship is given or promised a millions dollars but they have sufficient for their family needs. Had the church been a cult I dare say it would not have survived this long. I've had too many prayers answered, too many miracles witnessed to buy into what some say are "problematic" issues with church history or doctrine. i.e., JS, wife's, b.o.m difficulties, though disturbing I'm not totally convinced are factual. I see challenges a head for my 38 grandchildren given the age we live in. Experiencing what I went thru on my quest, I'm fearful some of them may not fare as I have. But I take solace in Knowing that the Lord loves all his children regardless of our weaknesses And that he hears and answers prayers.
@@mormonstories no doubt is a factor. Yet, as I have brought others to the Gospel, not having the same privileges, background and support as I (different cultures), now watching their 3rd generation of children & family experiencing the joys of living the gospel only reaffirms that there is happiness in living the gospel as taught by the church with no lasting scaring or negative hang ups.
This is all beautiful and uplifting what you said but this happens all over the world with many different kinds of people with different religions and traditions. I think it has to do with principles and people and not any particular religion, otherwise only faithful Mormons would be happy on this planet and we all know that this is not the case. We tend to believe this way and associate everything good with our religious traditions because we were either or both born in this religious tradition or conditioned to see things this way. I agree that faith is important in the search for truth, science alone cannot answer all questions just like religion alone cannot either.
I don't think I have ever seen Mr. Dehlin so enthused to give a guest an interview ! Awesome ! After listening this first interview I see why John felt so passionate about this guest.
I was one of those women who put everything in that basket. I gave everything to the church and my family. I am one of those that divorced and am going back to school at age 52. I have no career no retirement. I was a primary president, going through my divorce and my faith transition at the same time. I was tricked all the time into making decisions as a woman. Our husbands gaslight us the whole marriage and can say it is the priesthood!!!!!! Ugh!!
Thank you Shannon for being brave and strong enough to put this forward. We shifted our family to another country for the church. Hugh life changing choices made because we thought the Mormon church was the only true church. What harm has been done and still is doing.
Just occurred to me and hopefully others. If my TBM husband can donate 10% to the Mormon church I can donate to John to keep this important work going forward. Those who don’t pay tithing anymore see if you can donate a little too. I just have to figure how to donate on line ha,ha. 😏
Powerful and devastating presentation. Thank you both. John, you mentioned T.Edgar Lyon being treated badly by the Church. I worked in Nauvoo 2 summers 1970 and 1971 for Nauvoo Restoration Inc. Dr. Lyon was there and would give brilliant Mormon History talks to us during those summers. I respected Dr Lyon very much and grew quite fond of he and his wife. I left the Church before the persecution of Church Historians. Would you or someone else here fill me in on what happened to Dr Lyon?
This episode brings back a lot of memories for me. I knew Brigham Madsen personally. I was doing home health care and Brigham Madsen was one of my clients. I took care of him and his wife, Betty. He was 90 years old at the time. We had long talks about BH Roberts. Brigham Madsen lost his testimony of the church over BH Roberts investigations of the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Roberts wanted to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon but when the authorities of the church dismissed his questions he was greatly disappointed and left the meeting with the general authorities disheartened. He was hoping that the general authorities would be able to answer his questions but didn't even attempt to answer them. Brigham Madsen gave me a book for Christmas called The Book of Mormon by BH Roberts, which describes what happened, which was such a disappointment for B H Roberts. Brigham autographed the book for me. I still have the book, and a lot of good memories of the many discussions I had with Brigham. These are fond memories. I am grateful that I knew Brigham Madsen personally. I had a lot of respect for him. Thank you so much for airing this episode.
I'm not Mormon but I find these topics fascinating. It seems like the most sincere, true believers stumble upon the truth because they genuinely believe there's an answer at the end of all the rabbit holes that maintains the validity of their religion. Whereas the people who have vague doubts actively avoid looking for answers because they fear the conclusions that those answers would entail.
I’ve been binging a few of these interviews recently and been thinking about how to saturate the Mormon consciousness with this information. I don’t think many people want to actively go out and destroy peoples faith because we know how bad that sucks, yet we do want everyone, including our own families, to be aware. How do we saturate the Mormon consciousness?
I'm just livid. I tried to give the leaders a pass for living by testimony, ignorant to facts and only having lessons from family and seminary teachers... Now we know the con is complicit and going on for decades.
I too was pissed when I began learning the real history, I thought the leadership was in apostasy and that Joseph was innocent. I tried to make it true, but it’s so messy, none of it is good. We are taught to be honest, I concluded that the men at the top are all guilty of deceit, covering it up and blamed those for seeking truth. I just had to side with my integrity and that meant losing a lot of relationships. 😕
remember when e t benson was buying up all the forged documents from mark hoffman? e t benson and the mormon church was trying to keep secrets of the mormon church from being exposed. when hoffman bombed some people in 1985 it was found out that everything they had bought from hoffman was forgery. anyway the church has a long history of trying to hide the truth from the public.
@@randyjordan5521 the church got into a big pickle over that one. it would have been so much easier if hoffman didn't go and blow up people. as it was the church had to hurry up and do some tall mansplanin' as to how a salamander can turn into angel moroni. it was either that or just come right out and say they knew it was hoax all the time but they always buy forgeries or exchange them for items worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. long story short, when i was a little boy growing up mormon we learned about the gold plates being translated by urim and thummim, and the urim and thumim looked like a pair of "spectacles" now it's openly taught that joseph smith put a rock in a hat and read the whole book out loud to his scribes with his face buried in the hat. well it's a kind of good story. not as good as a salamander turning into angel moroni, but those were hectic times and about the best they could do under the circumstances. as the years go by the interesting thing is that all of hoffman's forgeries have atained a life of their own. there's a value attached to them and can be sold at auction to collectors. an original b/m might go for $100,000. i inquired about it from a bookseller and he told me, he couldn't find one, but asked "if i would be interested in the original gold plates instead." i passed, but now i'm thinking it was the opportunity of a lifetime i passed up.
This is one of the best Mormon Stories interviews John has ever done! I immediately went to Amazon and bought Studies Of The Book Of Mormon after listening to it. Looking forward to reading Shannon's thesis as well. John, will we ever get to learn the name of Grant Palmer's unnamed General Authority?
Exactly, part of my problem is I feel I gave up marriage and children for a church,I'm now feeling isn't true. Should of listened to my mom's opinion of being ok someone Christian, or Jewish,but a good man. Instead, I listened to the church members who said someone who could take me to the temple from day one! Also,I wasn't sure how much I wanted to raise children in LDS. Always,had issues, now worse since finding out more church history re Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon, and beliefs. Very upsetting.
Wonderful interview. Shannon was both informative and able to take us along on her journey through BH Roberts intellectual sojourn. The book could be tremendously healing and officially rehabilitate the good names of so many truthtellers sacrificed and minimized in the name of the church all the way back to the 19th century. And, finally, Shannon's face while discussing the human cost with John said it all. She has witnessed the damage to believers lives and personally experienced it as well. She has tremendous courage. Would that our church had half as much courage and integrity. What would Christ do with $100 billion and vast sums of real estate and business ventures? Who would Christ excommunicate and punish, especially now during pandemic and social distancing? Why do Mormon communities (in UT, AZ & ID) elect such odd & heartless LDS politicians this century? I'm certain its all related to open knowledge of the frauds.
Really wonderful, detailed, interesting interview. And it is so sad how we keep coming back to "how could they not have known?" It's the same question asked about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
Obviously Marcie, more and more and more ... financial power with no limitation, plus "more and more and more political power with no limitation" too. But why? For what? We can ad to keep the impunity of the untouchable, but again, Why?
To me they are good men that try their best and I find many of them very spiritual. The BoM is uplifting and beautiful, it is true. Either it is a fraud or not. To be it is true showing us the way back to our eternal home. I don't understand everything but I sure know how the spirit of God feels.
Con game of the century. Sexual deviants and liars FROM THE BEGINNING! a religion with basis of fraud. Why do they do it. 1 is money obviously 2nd is control/power. Mormon royalty and dynasty. Aren't the majority of general authorities related? Also Smith is an ancient illuminati bloodline and master mason connection is no joke!. Was no accident the church rose to such power within relatively rapid period of time.
I gain a lot from the info presented in these podcasts and that it supports my decision to stop believing in the Church about 12 years ago. I loved my experience in the Church for the most part having joined in 1968 in high school, went to BYU, went on a mission, married in the temple, raised 5 children in happy home and got divorced 30 years later. I would do all the same again. I loved living in my Mormon bubble and I’m grateful that now I do not. I’ve talked to my grown kids cautiously about the real truth about the Mormon Church and they are afraid that the knowledge of this would harm the happiness they currently enjoy which I tend to agree with. John I think you’re a good man but a very angry man. I hope you can continue your good work without so much anger. Chill out like Sandra Tanner does and you might live longer. You obviously have seen a lot more destruction that you attribute to the Church than I have. Anyway keep up the good work- the Truth is out!
JOHN!! YOU ARE THE ONE TO WRITE THE BOOK!! You are the person that knows all the people and can keep track of the progression of all of it! I have learned more from you alone about all of the deceptions and cover-ups throughout history, with everybody that you've interviewed, people that you know and have talked to, and all of the research you have done, and all of the summaries you have given on your podcasts. And you have the name that people would recognize and validate. And obviously you would have all kinds of contributors. My two cents 😉
John, give em hell. The truth matters. Even good results when derived under false pretenses will become negative, as the betrayal of trust becomes apparent to the deceived.
Who do I donate to, to get this book written ??? I just wish I could show this interview to my TBM brother and mother !! This is the adult version of children(members) believing in Santa(the LDS church) !!
Great interview. Again I will say Gary Wayne and his book “Genesis 6 Conspiricy”, (he’s also on RUclips) is the most brilliant research I’ve seen, that answers questions about history, the Bible, and he puts all the dots together for me.
Wow. Thank you John, and Shannon. Just incredible. My granddaughter is being baptized next year, and it just kills me. TSCC is a cancer, and so many of loved ones have been infected, including my wife. So sad.
Wonderful podcast to fill in the gaps with B. H. Roberts. It was interesting that The Truth, The Way, The Life was not published originally. I have a copy of this lengthy treatise on LDS Theology and read it years ago. Thanks for the information of this podcast.
If someone pitches a business idea to me, or sells me something, knowing there are troubling possibilities/facts/statistics, and they don't tell me beforehand, I could sue them later for knowingly withholding pertinent information, even if they genuinely think the idea or product would be good for me. I think the Church is like government; probably most have good intentions but grant themselves exceptions to rules of decency because they know better than us how we should live our lives (and in the Church's case, what we should believe). To hit closer to home, how many parents agree with what's being said in this video and yet treat their kids in the same manner? How free are their children? How much exposure are the children allowed to have to other ideas? Or, at least told that the things the parents teach are according to the parents' best judgment but that it's natural for the children to come to other conclusions as they get more information? I'm not a parent and I don't know the right way to deliver information I see as correct and also allow children to explore other ideas.
@@FFM115 and so haven't the sexual deviants. I am not arguing that the church is true, but it is obvious that the left-wing LGBTQ++++XYZ have been infiltrating it like other groups for a long time now. Their goal is to possess and bring anything that resembles traditional family values down, and they are. They will move in droves to Salt Lake and other similar towns and destroy those cities with their policies, like they have every other city left-wing Marxists take over.
John, a book covering this stuff sounds amazing, but to make the information even more accessible a documentary could be even stronger. I'm thinking about "Going Clear" that covers scientology. That was really powerful. A well written, well directed documentary would have a wide spread appeal and power that could make a significant impact on the church. They apostles could call it anti-mormon but the facts will speak for themselves. Trevor Haugen, maybe?
WOW! Thank you, Shannon Caldwell Montez. I was raised mormon ... but was never a believer. My father absolutely destroyed my life because he believed the lies told to him by the mormon 'church.' He believed all the things 'the church' already knew to be lies before my father had ever heard of 'the church.' And I, literally, paid for it all with my life ... I have always believed the mormon church was pure EVIL, but now it's been made clear that the guys at the top knew it as well and decided to destroy lives to keep the money and power offered to them. They should all rot in jail for the rest of their miserable lives (and if I could arrange for them to be raped and beaten, as I was for 10 years because of them, so much the better). This evil greedy organization, at the very least, owes every female whose life was impacted by them millions of $$$. The hundreds of Billions of $$$ accrued by this false 'church' should be liquidated to compensate their victims.
My mother moved back to Utah in the early 1990's. She had purchased a very expensive set of books, and some time before or right after she had left, a Church authority of some kind came by to retrieve one of the volumes for safe keeping. What was that book?It wasnt inexpensive. My mother complied.
It's interesting how in the early church you had to get approval/permission from a GA to "bo abroad" because you might lose your testimony if you lett Utah. I, however, lived all my life in the "mission field" and now that I'm living in Utah I find I'm having a faith crisis! Thanks, John Dehlin, for all I've learned from you and your program! I must add that my faith crisis came BEFORE I found Mormon Stories, MormonismLive, etc. It began with actions and words of the Q15 which led to research and then to this channel and others.
The really sad thing is that people get "sold" on something, and it's reinforced by repeated rhetoric throughout their lives . . . and they build a wall around it to keep any truth out--because the truth might be hard to confront, and might mean MAJOR shifts in behaviors and loyalties.
Soooo late to the party, but this episode compelled me to join the channel. I couldn't, in good conscience, not contribute to the channel after hearing this. Thank you, Shannon, and thank you, John!
So you're of two minds about this? On the one hand, you think it was wrong of church leaders to withhold Robert's work, but on the other hand you think it's okay because they know better than the chapel Mormons.
I really loved B. H. Roberts and the little I knew about his work, years ago I got tangled up with the pre-adamites theory and all, it’s 5 am right now and I’m a true believing Mormon... I’m afraid I shouldn’t had listened this....
@2:02:48 one has to wonder if they sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement where if they decide to step down or lose their faith or whatever that that will silently exit out so the public will never know what happened
This is why the LDS church is focusing so much on believing in Christ. Where in reality if you attend a meeting in their church very rarely is Christ even mentioned.
At one hour 10 minutes =4207 You mention Richard R. Lyman. Every time you anyone mentions his name, you should repeat that he was a 3 generation Apostle.
I always wondered why BH didnt leave the church but he was probably too high of an authority to do so knowing if he did it would hurt his religion that he had dedicated his life to. thats my theory. ill enjoy listening to this
This is what the modern leaders have done, they pretty much sell their souls to protect the image of the church, and they receive the perks for their loyalty. They claim to be witnesses of Jesus Christ but have no Integrity!
Informative on many levels. I'd love to hear more about how authorities had BH Roberts writings and how that played into Hoffman's ability to deceive them.
Hard to follow this B H Robert’s historical information. Not big news for me have heard and read similar stuff for over 65 years. The best podcast, among other M H shows is the Ed Decker podcast. I just loved that podcast.
BH Robert's early writing(s) on the BoM and Church History that were allowed were a staple in many Mormon homes. He was a respected scholar and believer...Now we find out that the writings that supported his papers/books were written about 1911; but by 1922 Roberts had to admit that he was basing his theories and writings and support on pseudoscience and speculation. We also find out that many of the American archaeology and language histories were just starting to be studied. Just like John said about the Watergate conspiracy, "it's wasn't the act but the "cover-up" " that shows how evil characters the leaders were were, are.
Hi! I'm a BYU grad undergoing a faith crisis. I've been binge watching this channel for a week but there is so much info. Have you ever addressed the word print analysis? I learned about it from a Mormon apologist while I was at BYU. The full name of the analysis is Discriminant Analysis of Four Major Book of Mormon Authors and Joseph Smith. In this analysis, they used statistics to show that the four main "authors" of the Book of Mormon have a distinct word print/ writing style that is different from Joseph Smith's writing style. Could this have been a result of plagiarism perhaps? Thank you!
If y'all really TRULY want to know about Religion and the background of where religion started, y'all need to read about Titus Flavious and Jesus. It explains more you need to know about what, where, why, when, and how religion came about. I promise you will have a whole different perspective on religion alone. Good luck and stay safe and knowledgeable.
“Studies of the Book of Mormon” by B.H. Roberts is great as it has the letters. questions, and answers in a 325 page book. I ordered it used on Amazon.
Loss and grief is hard times bro, buckle down. Don't lose yourself, stay good if that is who you truly are. In the end the knowledge of the truth will set you freeeeeeeeee!
Be strong Mario. You have the spirit to guide you, use it to find truth... not this. But all of this gets us lost in the weeds. It’s a stumbling block.
Don't worry, this is old news. Try to get "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and study it, especially the chapter "Book of Mormon difficulties - a study" and you will feel more comfortable and be able to look at the subject in a more nuanced way than most people did, on this forum, apparently. Right now there are 12 volumes available on Amazon for less than 20 dollars. Be of good cheer, greetings from the Netherlands.
Interesting. My great grandfather (Joseph Don Carlos Young) was allowed by Brigham Young to attend Rensler Polytechnic Institute and became an architect and mathematician.
Sadly, you're probably right...assuming she hasn't left already. I have a sneaking suspicion that she, like SO MANY PEOPLE LATELY, has already left the so-called church...at least unofficially.
@@funkyfreshtx that won't stop them from officially kicking her out of their cult. It's one thing to become inactive but another to expose their lies on a public interview etc. They have zero tolerance for anyone speaking the truth as to why they left the church.
Religion can function in your life in one of two ways: (a) a reason to succeed, or (b) an excuse to fail. I believe "Mormonism" gives many people exactly the excuse to fail that they were always looking for. Sit on your backside, and everything that doesn't work out can be blamed with on "the Lord" or the devil.
Great info. I read Studies in the Book of Mormon several years ago and liked it so much that I read it again. As an aside, it is a bit interesting to watch the LDS world catch up to theories that the rest of the world are starting to question our discard. Feminism and girl boss ideology have left a generation of women lonely and depressed. Evolution, as a theory, has failed to provide purpose and meaning and doesn't even test on the science that it claims to be based on.
I was raised a catholic ,at age 14 I decided to read the Bible because I wanted embrace my religion .oh crap it made me an atheist.there is a lot of bs in the scriptures
B.H. Roberts never lost his testimony of the Book of Mormon. This claim is a distortion of what Roberts wrote. For anyone genuinely interested in figuring this out, do some searching about Roberts.
Ordered both books: "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and "The Truth, the Way and the Life". Curious to absorb this info in B.H. Roberts' own voice minus the spin.
One of the first points of Anarchism is "The system exists to protect itself"
Point 2 "No matter how benevolent the institution is, the moment it puts itself's survival ahead of its benevolent values, it begins to unravel, and focus on protecting itself".
I spoke with that same General Authority in his home for about 3 hours in 2012 with three of my friends. It was an earth-shattering conversation, and I've wished for years that I could share everything I remember that he shared with us. He did ask us to not disclose his identity because - he feared for his life -
If he is dead now, then you are safe to tell us who he is and what you remember
Pure hyperbole from a teller of folktales. As someone who has spent real time with upper-echelon LDS leaders, the idea of them assassinating someone made me chuckle (Roberts is one of my heroes, incidentally. But it goes both ways: ex-Mormons who tell wide-eyed stories of witnessing miraculous healings while in the church, are often just as likely to tell wide-eyed stories of ultrajudicial punishment & other savory crimes when out of it.) @@joshpowell2194
I read the book, Studies of the Book of Mormon, about 15 years ago and thought it was just the best and so needed. I admire B. H. Roberts; he was a great thinker and seeker of truth. But it seems that to leaders of the Mormon church "truth" comes much farther down the list, somewhere after "power", money and ego. Thank you so much, John Dehlin, and Shannon. I am reading your thesis now, Shannon. And, yes, I hope the book does get written.
Lois Concidine Hi Lois! So fun to stumble on a familiar face. :)
John, I have been watching your podcast for a few years now and this has to be the best interview yet, not to take anything away from your other guests. I am not a Mormon but one of my best friends from childhood converted over 30 years ago and I have tried over the years to open her eyes to the truth but gave up because she just wasn’t interested in truth. After realizing I can’t do anything I have just loved on her and her family and I wait for the day that any of them start to question. This episode is brilliant. I’ll have to watch it repeatedly to absorb it all. Bravo to Shannon and bless you for your scholarship and bravery!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏❤️❤️❤️
I've tried all my life to give LDS Church the benefit of the doubt but in my mind, this is another nail in a coffin that illustrates the need for a wake and funeral for the LDS Church. This information is more than damning or disappointing, but in the very words of Gordon B. Hinkley If the Book of Mormon is not historically true then the current Church should be the last domino to fall among so many representing long-standing lies in need of burial.
I have been struggling with the Church for a while, piling things on the proverbial shelf....and then this episode came along and BROKE MY SHELF! Thanks so much John and Shannon for this episode! I feel FREE for the first time many, many years. THANKS TO YOU BOTH!!!!
I've listened to Mormon Stories for years and appreciate Johns approach and guests.
I watched the transition from the more innocent early years to where we are now and this is the first I've felt prompted to respond.
At age 14 I read "No Man Knows My History", my first venture into anti- Mormonism. My father being a Bishop at the time, one for 21 years, I shook he and my converted Catholic mother up with my inquiring questioning over the course of many months & years. From that book by the Tanner's I went on to other anti-Mormon books. My faith was chinked and damaged but I continued to attend church and seminary. Study my scriptures, say my prayers and pray for guidance. John mentioned a basic tenant the LDS faith teaches is we refer to the Gospel as the " Plan of Happiness"....as the 3rd child of 12 growing up in an LDS home in the 50's & 60's in a Little town in Oregon I can attest to you it was a bit of heaven on Earth. Living the gospel did bring happiness into our home and lives. No damaging affects what so ever from practicing so called Mormonism.
As for my anti-Mormon forays, it continues time to time. My faith was actually strengthened once broken and mended. But one cannot dismiss the importance of prayer and a spiritual witness of the Holy Ghost when seeking a testimony of Jesus Christ and this Church. What grounds me though is the Book of Mormon. You may talk of it not being a historical document or being channeled or otherwise conjured up, but when I read it, and time and time again receive a spiritual witness of its divine Truth, I cannot deny or denounce it's authenticity. Since it only bares witness that Jesus is the Christ of the whole world and the Son of God and testifies of good things, then it must be good in the eyes of God.
Since those early years of the 60's two of my 12 siblings have more less less left the church...both being excommunicated. Both are very much loved and accepted by the family. Both have struggled far more in their personal and family lives than those within the church. I'm just saying, the emperical evidence is there, living gospel principles brings a greater measure of happiness. Not that we all haven't experienced and suffered setbacks but not near the degree they who are outside the church, at least in our family, have.
I must disagree with many of the assertions and conclusions John and Shannon have come to regarding the Brethren, specifically the First Presidency and quorum of apostles.....that they know the Church to based on falsehoods but continue the course for whatever reasons.....Absolutely Not! I've been previleged over the years to have some acquaintance with General Authorities....one President of the church, a family member,(cousin of my father)and several members of the First Quorum of the 70. All I have known have been true believers. Highly educated men from all walks of life. From the fields of Science, Law, Industry and Education.
I can assure you no one in the apostleship is given or promised a millions dollars but they have sufficient for their family needs. Had the church been a cult I dare say it would not have survived this long. I've had too many prayers answered, too many miracles witnessed to buy into what some say are "problematic" issues with church history or doctrine. i.e., JS, wife's, b.o.m difficulties, though disturbing I'm not totally convinced are factual. I see challenges a head for my 38 grandchildren given the age we live in. Experiencing what I went thru on my quest, I'm fearful some of them may not fare as I have. But I take solace in Knowing that the Lord loves all his children regardless of our weaknesses
And that he hears and answers prayers.
I’m glad you are happy Neil.
I wonder, though, if confirmation bias and privilege are what govern your reality.
@@mormonstories no doubt is a factor. Yet, as I have brought others to the Gospel, not having the same privileges, background and support as I (different cultures), now watching their 3rd generation of children & family experiencing the joys of living the gospel only reaffirms that there is happiness in living the gospel as taught by the church with no lasting scaring or negative hang ups.
This is all beautiful and uplifting what you said but this happens all over the world with many different kinds of people with different religions and traditions. I think it has to do with principles and people and not any particular religion, otherwise only faithful Mormons would be happy on this planet and we all know that this is not the case. We tend to believe this way and associate everything good with our religious traditions because we were either or both born in this religious tradition or conditioned to see things this way. I agree that faith is important in the search for truth, science alone cannot answer all questions just like religion alone cannot either.
I don't think I have ever seen Mr. Dehlin so enthused to give a guest an interview ! Awesome ! After listening this first interview I see why John felt so passionate about this guest.
Oapfdl
That’s Dr. Dehlin to you! 🤣🤣
I was one of those women who put everything in that basket. I gave everything to the church and my family. I am one of those that divorced and am going back to school at age 52. I have no career no retirement. I was a primary president, going through my divorce and my faith transition at the same time. I was tricked all the time into making decisions as a woman. Our husbands gaslight us the whole marriage and can say it is the priesthood!!!!!! Ugh!!
I’m so sorry Stacie.
Thank you Shannon for being brave and strong enough to put this forward. We shifted our family to another country for the church. Hugh life changing choices made because we thought the Mormon church was the only true church. What harm has been done and still is doing.
Thank you John for all you are doing.
Just occurred to me and hopefully others. If my TBM husband can donate 10% to the Mormon church I can donate to John to keep this important work going forward. Those who don’t pay tithing anymore see if you can donate a little too. I just have to figure how to donate on line ha,ha. 😏
This is a must watch podcast! Such an important interview. Thanks to both Shannon and John.
My God! Speechless! The most blockbuster Mormon Stories yet!
Yes! I clung to every word!
Powerful and devastating presentation. Thank you both. John, you mentioned T.Edgar Lyon being treated badly by the Church. I worked in Nauvoo 2 summers 1970 and 1971 for Nauvoo Restoration Inc. Dr. Lyon was there and would give brilliant Mormon History talks to us during those summers. I respected Dr Lyon very much and grew quite fond of he and his wife. I left the Church before the persecution of Church Historians. Would you or someone else here fill me in on what happened to Dr Lyon?
This episode brings back a lot of memories for me. I knew Brigham Madsen personally. I was doing home health care and Brigham Madsen was one of my clients. I took care of him and his wife, Betty. He was 90 years old at the time. We had long talks about BH Roberts. Brigham Madsen lost his testimony of the church over BH Roberts investigations of the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Roberts wanted to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon but when the authorities of the church dismissed his questions he was greatly disappointed and left the meeting with the general authorities disheartened. He was hoping that the general authorities would be able to answer his questions but didn't even attempt to answer them.
Brigham Madsen gave me a book for Christmas called The Book of Mormon by BH Roberts, which describes what happened, which was such a disappointment for B H Roberts. Brigham autographed the book for me. I still have the book, and a lot of good memories of the many discussions I had with Brigham. These are fond memories. I am grateful that I knew Brigham Madsen personally. I had a lot of respect for him.
Thank you so much for airing this episode.
❤️❤️❤️. Thank you for sharing Elaine!!
The Book of Mormon by BH Roberts or Studies of the Book of Mormon?
I'm not Mormon but I find these topics fascinating. It seems like the most sincere, true believers stumble upon the truth because they genuinely believe there's an answer at the end of all the rabbit holes that maintains the validity of their religion. Whereas the people who have vague doubts actively avoid looking for answers because they fear the conclusions that those answers would entail.
I’ve been binging a few of these interviews recently and been thinking about how to saturate the Mormon consciousness with this information. I don’t think many people want to actively go out and destroy peoples faith because we know how bad that sucks, yet we do want everyone, including our own families, to be aware. How do we saturate the Mormon consciousness?
I'm just livid. I tried to give the leaders a pass for living by testimony, ignorant to facts and only having lessons from family and seminary teachers... Now we know the con is complicit and going on for decades.
I too was pissed when I began learning the real history, I thought the leadership was in apostasy and that Joseph was innocent. I tried to make it true, but it’s so messy, none of it is good. We are taught to be honest, I concluded that the men at the top are all guilty of deceit, covering it up and blamed those for seeking truth. I just had to side with my integrity and that meant losing a lot of relationships. 😕
remember when e t benson was buying up all the forged documents from mark hoffman? e t benson and the mormon church was trying to keep secrets of the mormon church from being exposed. when hoffman bombed some people in 1985 it was found out that everything they had bought from hoffman was forgery. anyway the church has a long history of trying to hide the truth from the public.
@@randyjordan5521 the church got into a big pickle over that one.
it would have been so much easier if hoffman didn't go and blow up people.
as it was the church had to hurry up and do some tall mansplanin' as to how a salamander can turn into angel moroni.
it was either that or just come right out and say they knew it was hoax all the time but they always buy forgeries or exchange them for items worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
long story short, when i was a little boy growing up mormon we learned about the gold plates being translated by urim and thummim, and the urim and thumim looked like a pair of "spectacles"
now it's openly taught that joseph smith put a rock in a hat and read the whole book out loud to his scribes with his face buried in the hat.
well it's a kind of good story. not as good as a salamander turning into angel moroni, but those were hectic times and about the best they could do under the circumstances.
as the years go by the interesting thing is that all of hoffman's forgeries have atained a life of their own.
there's a value attached to them and can be sold at auction to collectors.
an original b/m might go for $100,000. i inquired about it from a bookseller and he told me, he couldn't find one, but asked "if i would be interested in the original gold plates instead."
i passed, but now i'm thinking it was the opportunity of a lifetime i passed up.
This is one of the best Mormon Stories interviews John has ever done! I immediately went to Amazon and bought Studies Of The Book Of Mormon after listening to it. Looking forward to reading Shannon's thesis as well.
John, will we ever get to learn the name of Grant Palmer's unnamed General Authority?
This is amazing! TY for this episode, Mr. Dehlin. The truth is slowly coming out line upon line and precept on precept!
Exactly, part of my problem is I feel I gave up marriage and children for a church,I'm now feeling isn't true. Should of listened to my mom's opinion of being ok someone Christian, or Jewish,but a good man. Instead, I listened to the church members who said someone who could take me to the temple from day one! Also,I wasn't sure how much I wanted to raise children in LDS. Always,had issues, now worse since finding out more church history re Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon, and beliefs. Very upsetting.
M.A. * yes. I really feel for people who gave up marriage because they haven’t found someone to take them to the temple. So sad.
Wonderful interview. Shannon was both informative and able to take us along on her journey through BH Roberts intellectual sojourn. The book could be tremendously healing and officially rehabilitate the good names of so many truthtellers sacrificed and minimized in the name of the church all the way back to the 19th century. And, finally, Shannon's face while discussing the human cost with John said it all. She has witnessed the damage to believers lives and personally experienced it as well. She has tremendous courage. Would that our church had half as much courage and integrity. What would Christ do with $100 billion and vast sums of real estate and business ventures? Who would Christ excommunicate and punish, especially now during pandemic and social distancing? Why do Mormon communities (in UT, AZ & ID) elect such odd & heartless LDS politicians this century? I'm certain its all related to open knowledge of the frauds.
Really wonderful, detailed, interesting interview. And it is so sad how we keep coming back to "how could they not have known?" It's the same question asked about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
Now we know that they know that its not true. The top 15 are not victims, they are the ones running the con game.
Exactly, since the main beginning. So the "what" and "how" they've been doing all this have enough evidences, could be good to find the why ...?
Sófocles Morán I think the “why” is pretty clear. $$$$$
Obviously Marcie, more and more and more ... financial power with no limitation, plus "more and more and more political power with no limitation" too. But why? For what?
We can ad to keep the impunity of the untouchable, but again, Why?
To me they are good men that try their best and I find many of them very spiritual.
The BoM is uplifting and beautiful, it is true.
Either it is a fraud or not. To be it is true showing us the way back to our eternal home.
I don't understand everything but I sure know how the spirit of God feels.
Con game of the century. Sexual deviants and liars FROM THE BEGINNING! a religion with basis of fraud. Why do they do it. 1 is money obviously 2nd is control/power.
Mormon royalty and dynasty. Aren't the majority of general authorities related?
Also Smith is an ancient illuminati bloodline and master mason connection is no joke!. Was no accident the church rose to such power within relatively rapid period of time.
I gain a lot from the info presented in these podcasts and that it supports my decision to stop believing in the Church about 12 years ago. I loved my experience in the Church for the most part having joined in 1968 in high school, went to BYU, went on a mission, married in the temple, raised 5 children in happy home and got divorced 30 years later. I would do all the same again. I loved living in my Mormon bubble and I’m grateful that now I do not. I’ve talked to my grown kids cautiously about the real truth about the Mormon Church and they are afraid that the knowledge of this would harm the happiness they currently enjoy which I tend to agree with.
John I think you’re a good man but a very angry man. I hope you can continue your good work without so much anger. Chill out like Sandra Tanner does and you might live longer. You obviously have seen a lot more destruction that you attribute to the Church than I have. Anyway keep up the good work- the Truth is out!
On it!!!
John thank you for all you do!! Shannon thank you so very much for such a awesome interview and a great work!.
JOHN!! YOU ARE THE ONE TO WRITE THE BOOK!! You are the person that knows all the people and can keep track of the progression of all of it! I have learned more from you alone about all of the deceptions and cover-ups throughout history, with everybody that you've interviewed, people that you know and have talked to, and all of the research you have done, and all of the summaries you have given on your podcasts. And you have the name that people would recognize and validate. And obviously you would have all kinds of contributors. My two cents 😉
Title: They've Known All Along
Now, that's a book I would buy ...
You will never see nor be able to question those who might have joined the church but do not.
John, give em hell. The truth matters. Even good results when derived under false pretenses will become negative, as the betrayal of trust becomes apparent to the deceived.
Big Country it’s a quote from a song,
ruclips.net/video/_r7IgIweHcA/видео.html
Who do I donate to, to get this book written ??? I just wish I could show this interview to my TBM brother and mother !! This is the adult version of children(members) believing in Santa(the LDS church) !!
there's so much written about the book of abraham. one book called by his own hand is a free download from internet archive
What does TBM mean?
@@karenvanessan.2000
TBM = True Believing Mormon
I think this is one of the best interviews he’s done.
Great interview. Again I will say Gary Wayne and his book “Genesis 6 Conspiricy”, (he’s also on RUclips) is the most brilliant research I’ve seen, that answers questions about history, the Bible, and he puts all the dots together for me.
Wow. Thank you John, and Shannon. Just incredible. My granddaughter is being baptized next year, and it just kills me. TSCC is a cancer, and so many of loved ones have been infected, including my wife. So sad.
Me as a Mormon: I’m tapping out. Where do I sign resignation letter.
Wonderful podcast to fill in the gaps with B. H. Roberts. It was interesting that The Truth, The Way, The Life was not published originally. I have a copy of this lengthy treatise on LDS Theology and read it years ago. Thanks for the information of this podcast.
If someone pitches a business idea to me, or sells me something, knowing there are troubling possibilities/facts/statistics, and they don't tell me beforehand, I could sue them later for knowingly withholding pertinent information, even if they genuinely think the idea or product would be good for me. I think the Church is like government; probably most have good intentions but grant themselves exceptions to rules of decency because they know better than us how we should live our lives (and in the Church's case, what we should believe).
To hit closer to home, how many parents agree with what's being said in this video and yet treat their kids in the same manner? How free are their children? How much exposure are the children allowed to have to other ideas? Or, at least told that the things the parents teach are according to the parents' best judgment but that it's natural for the children to come to other conclusions as they get more information? I'm not a parent and I don't know the right way to deliver information I see as correct and also allow children to explore other ideas.
Wow, had no idea apostles had to sign away their rights to their own journals!
That's happened within the last ten years. It applies to all GAs.
Secret combinations has infiltrated the church
@@FFM115 and so haven't the sexual deviants. I am not arguing that the church is true, but it is obvious that the left-wing LGBTQ++++XYZ have been infiltrating it like other groups for a long time now. Their goal is to possess and bring anything that resembles traditional family values down, and they are. They will move in droves to Salt Lake and other similar towns and destroy those cities with their policies, like they have every other city left-wing Marxists take over.
Hey Guys, thanks for such a great guess and discussion.
Just fantastic! I’m looking forward to the upcoming episodes.
Had to come back and listen to this after BH Roberts was spoke about in conference.
Shoot, it's like the CEC letter of 1922! Amazing conversation. Shannon you are a delight and I appreciate your scholarship!
Oops, replied before John literally said the same thing!
John, you were so *fired up* for this episode!! Double Hi-five to you. So, when are *YOU* going to write that book?
I SO appreciate your perspective!!
Anyone who has spent time looking at apologist arguments today for each of these arguments, would realize that these are not actually that persuasive.
John, a book covering this stuff sounds amazing, but to make the information even more accessible a documentary could be even stronger. I'm thinking about "Going Clear" that covers scientology. That was really powerful. A well written, well directed documentary would have a wide spread appeal and power that could make a significant impact on the church. They apostles could call it anti-mormon but the facts will speak for themselves. Trevor Haugen, maybe?
Another astounding three hours. Thank you to the both of you for your commitment to scholarship and truth🙏.
It saddens me that trusting members of this church are paying 10% of their hard earned money to this con.
And that is why I stopped paying.
Amazing interview!! Yes John...please write a book! It would be so great!!👏👏👏👏
WOW! Thank you, Shannon Caldwell Montez.
I was raised mormon ... but was never a believer.
My father absolutely destroyed my life because he believed the lies told to him by the mormon 'church.'
He believed all the things 'the church' already knew to be lies before my father had ever heard of 'the church.'
And I, literally, paid for it all with my life ...
I have always believed the mormon church was pure EVIL, but now it's been made clear that the guys at the top knew it as well and decided to destroy lives to keep the money and power offered to them. They should all rot in jail for the rest of their miserable lives (and if I could arrange for them to be raped and beaten, as I was for 10 years because of them, so much the better).
This evil greedy organization, at the very least, owes every female whose life was impacted by them millions of $$$.
The hundreds of Billions of $$$ accrued by this false 'church' should be liquidated to compensate their victims.
My mother moved back to Utah in the early 1990's. She had purchased a very expensive set of books, and some time before or right after she had left, a Church authority of some kind came by to retrieve one of the volumes for safe keeping. What was that book?It wasnt inexpensive. My mother complied.
It's interesting how in the early church you had to get approval/permission from a GA to "bo abroad" because you might lose your testimony if you lett Utah. I, however, lived all my life in the "mission field" and now that I'm living in Utah I find I'm having a faith crisis! Thanks, John Dehlin, for all I've learned from you and your program! I must add that my faith crisis came BEFORE I found Mormon Stories, MormonismLive, etc. It began with actions and words of the Q15 which led to research and then to this channel and others.
John, thanks a million for your podcast. Alabama listening.
A fascinating discussion! The dialogue reaches a real high point from about 2:41:00 to 2:45:15.
I’m so happy I found this channel.
The really sad thing is that people get "sold" on something, and it's reinforced by repeated rhetoric throughout their lives . . . and they build a wall around it to keep any truth out--because the truth might be hard to confront, and might mean MAJOR shifts in behaviors and loyalties.
Outstanding - thank you for the information!!!
Mormons: U mad bro?
Exmo Me: Yup, sometimes. You ever heard of BH Roberts?
😂😂😂
Soooo late to the party, but this episode compelled me to join the channel. I couldn't, in good conscience, not contribute to the channel after hearing this. Thank you, Shannon, and thank you, John!
Very interesting.. looking forward to the next parts!!
So you're of two minds about this? On the one hand, you think it was wrong of church leaders to withhold Robert's work, but on the other hand you think it's okay because they know better than the chapel Mormons.
The Information Age will have its reckoning…the sooner the better…Oaks, McConkie, Roberts…yes, they all knew, know…
I really loved B. H. Roberts and the little I knew about his work, years ago I got tangled up with the pre-adamites theory and all, it’s 5 am right now and I’m a true believing Mormon... I’m afraid I shouldn’t had listened this....
Mario, please share more of your thoughts❤️
@2:02:48 one has to wonder if they sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement where if they decide to step down or lose their faith or whatever that that will silently exit out so the public will never know what happened
Another great interview. TSCC is such a long con. John, who better to write that book than you!
For sure, John should write a book, there's certainly no one better than John Dehlin for such an enlightening task.
I am back in the hospital because of the type
This is why the LDS church is focusing so much on believing in Christ. Where in reality if you attend a meeting in their church very rarely is Christ even mentioned.
Write the book 🙌👏🙌👏
Jeremy Runnells is the modern day William E Riter 🤣
Looking forward to reading this.
At one hour 10 minutes =4207 You mention Richard R. Lyman. Every time you anyone mentions his name, you should repeat that he was a 3 generation Apostle.
I always wondered why BH didnt leave the church but he was probably too high of an authority to do so knowing if he did it would hurt his religion that he had dedicated his life to.
thats my theory. ill enjoy listening to this
This is what the modern leaders have done, they pretty much sell their souls to protect the image of the church, and they receive the perks for their loyalty. They claim to be witnesses of Jesus Christ but have no Integrity!
Informative on many levels. I'd love to hear more about how authorities had BH Roberts writings and how that played into Hoffman's ability to deceive them.
This is very useful peer review.
Hard to follow this B H Robert’s historical information. Not big news for me have heard and read similar stuff for over 65 years. The best podcast, among other M H shows is the Ed Decker podcast. I just loved that podcast.
BH Robert's early writing(s) on the BoM and Church History that were allowed were a staple in many Mormon homes. He was a respected scholar and believer...Now we find out that the writings that supported his papers/books were written about 1911; but by 1922 Roberts had to admit that he was basing his theories and writings and support on pseudoscience and speculation. We also find out that many of the American archaeology and language histories were just starting to be studied. Just like John said about the Watergate conspiracy, "it's wasn't the act but the "cover-up" " that shows how evil characters the leaders were were, are.
She is so amazing!
Fascinating stuff
Hi! I'm a BYU grad undergoing a faith crisis. I've been binge watching this channel for a week but there is so much info. Have you ever addressed the word print analysis? I learned about it from a Mormon apologist while I was at BYU. The full name of the analysis is Discriminant Analysis of Four Major Book of Mormon Authors and Joseph Smith. In this analysis, they used statistics to show that the four main "authors" of the Book of Mormon have a distinct word print/ writing style that is different from Joseph Smith's writing style. Could this have been a result of plagiarism perhaps? Thank you!
🤯Mind Blown!!! Saving it to favourites.
If y'all really TRULY want to know about Religion and the background of where religion started, y'all need to read about Titus Flavious and Jesus. It explains more you need to know about what, where, why, when, and how religion came about. I promise you will have a whole different perspective on religion alone. Good luck and stay safe and knowledgeable.
The Secret Combination of 1920. 😢🥵😡 thank you Sister Shannon🌺
This is one of my favorites episodes on MSP.
Best podcast to date!!! And that's saying a lot!!
“Studies of the Book of Mormon” by B.H. Roberts
is great as it has the letters.
questions, and answers in a 325 page book. I ordered it used on Amazon.
Powerful stuff!!
Great show!
Mormon stories straight reppin the set.
Has the book, proposed at the end, been published yet?
How many tapirs it takes to pull a chariot into battle?
This was a crispy one for me
I’m traumatized
Loss and grief is hard times bro, buckle down. Don't lose yourself, stay good if that is who you truly are. In the end the knowledge of the truth will set you freeeeeeeeee!
Be strong Mario. You have the spirit to guide you, use it to find truth... not this. But all of this gets us lost in the weeds. It’s a stumbling block.
Don't worry, this is old news. Try to get "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and study it, especially the chapter "Book of Mormon difficulties - a study" and you will feel more comfortable and be able to look at the subject in a more nuanced way than most people did, on this forum, apparently. Right now there are 12 volumes available on Amazon for less than 20 dollars. Be of good cheer, greetings from the Netherlands.
same here a little bit... tears
Interesting. My great grandfather (Joseph Don Carlos Young) was allowed by Brigham Young to attend Rensler Polytechnic Institute and became an architect and mathematician.
This lady will probably get excommunicated for this.
Sadly, you're probably right...assuming she hasn't left already. I have a sneaking suspicion that she, like SO MANY PEOPLE LATELY, has already left the so-called church...at least unofficially.
she already left
@@funkyfreshtx that won't stop them from officially kicking her out of their cult. It's one thing to become inactive but another to expose their lies on a public interview etc. They have zero tolerance for anyone speaking the truth as to why they left the church.
Very interesting thank you for the information
The link to the thesis in your description is broken.
58:48 - Heber J. Grant ... grants... the meeting!
Religion can function in your life in one of two ways: (a) a reason to succeed, or (b) an excuse to fail. I believe "Mormonism" gives many people exactly the excuse to fail that they were always looking for. Sit on your backside, and everything that doesn't work out can be blamed with on "the Lord" or the devil.
I might have spelled that wrong
Great info. I read Studies in the Book of Mormon several years ago and liked it so much that I read it again. As an aside, it is a bit interesting to watch the LDS world catch up to theories that the rest of the world are starting to question our discard. Feminism and girl boss ideology have left a generation of women lonely and depressed. Evolution, as a theory, has failed to provide purpose and meaning and doesn't even test on the science that it claims to be based on.
Where can I find the story of grant palmer and the naming of this general authority who claimed the million doar bonus etc?
2:22:24 is the church's approach to apologetics.
Hmmm....how did the last major records get lost?
I heard you say once before that you would go back if they asked you. Have you changed your mind?
I was raised a catholic ,at age 14 I decided to read the Bible because I wanted embrace my religion .oh crap it made me an atheist.there is a lot of bs in the scriptures
That was my experience as well, the Bible took me down the Mormon rabbit hole! 👍🏼😂
B.H. Roberts never lost his testimony of the Book of Mormon. This claim is a distortion of what Roberts wrote. For anyone genuinely interested in figuring this out, do some searching about Roberts.
Ordered both books: "Studies of the Book of Mormon" and "The Truth, the Way and the Life". Curious to absorb this info in B.H. Roberts' own voice minus the spin.
I heard someone say that the leaders know that Mormonism is false but they choose to look the other way.
Apbt 2010 You are joking and I am serious.