No many people give credit to the english translation voice over. He's very good and I love the personality characteristic he puts in. Thank you for making the video enjoyable for english speakers 😊
one thing I really dig about these dudes is that they may not have a plan/schematic for doing the projects, but they are such skilled and gifted engineers that they can just start with an idea and work out the details as they go. You defiantly want these guys on your team in a post-apocalyptic Road Warrior World.
Nah, wont change much. wider tire is not equals more traction. i saw here on youtube old german video, there was passanger car and semi truck, long story short it doesent matter how wide or skinny your tire is, if brakes can lock up wheel braking distance will be about the same. but softer tire compound will shorten distance
Love this. Messing with brakes... Speed, shipping containers all over the place that if you hit, would be a sudden stop. *No seat belt* Only on Garage 54. Love it! 🤣
@@trm4life yeah, right toward the ends of the runs it does look like braking efficiency is reducing. The overly sensitive pedal was responsible but could be solved by reducing line pressure.
@@tsslaporte true, but with 3 callipers less braking force would be required per calliper. In theory you'd only need 1/3 the clamping force on each calliper which in the long run could potentially lead to better pad and rotor longevity.
This has lots of potential for tinkering and I hope you try it more. What you really need to do is increase your tire width or stickiness with each addition of a caliper. In the end, the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. Keep at it!!!
Move to a larger bore master cylinder. . More calipers means you split the volume of fluid. So a larger master is a must. It'll apply more brake pressure Wich seems to be lacking.
Bigger brakes won't stop you faster, wider tires will. The heat by the multiple calipers isn't allowing time for the rotor to cool so you're getting instant fade.
Fade? The wheel skids! As long as you can lock up the wheel fade would be irrelevant. The energy going into the rotor is in any cases cooled from inside via vent channels, not from outside and the total amount of energy to dissipate is constant.
The heat is a byproduct of the kinetic energy of the car. Multiple calipers spreads that heat over them, so each individual caliper doesn't get as hot as a single one does. The problem with multiple calipers is that they don't give as much rotor access to fresh air for cooling (they reduce effective rotor surface area)
@@shadowboy813 Agreed, and exactly what I said: Same heat input regardless of number of calipers. But, cooling of a brake rotor happens more on inside of it than outside. This is why it is not just a flat plate but two plates in a ribbed sandwich. The internal ribs act as a fan. Also, fading is reduced by not letting a pad create as much friction by letting multiple pads work together. Bigger and almost always better brakes use larger pads for this exact reason.
@@shadowboy813 welp will make even more heat combined and that heat will transfer between each so you say it spreads heat out each one makes heating each other up.
By the " heat by the multiple callipers isn't allowing time for the rotor to cool" logic, you should be able to take the stock brakes, using a single calliper, and cut the pads in two to get better braking performance. As others have stated, the energy required to stop the car is constant so there is no additional heat produced. I would argue that the greater mass of the additional brake pads, their backing plates and callipers will help dissipate the heat better. This is why performance brake callipers are finned. Oh and wider tires stopping you faster is not always correct. It all has to do with the contact patch, and your wider tire may have a smaller contact patch, and your tire construction will likely be a stiffer sidewall to support the wider carcass, meaning it will be less compliant fore/aft - why drag cars have soft sidewalls to improve grip under acceleration but can't corner for crap.
I remembered seeing a Mercedes 600 Pullman (W100) from the 1960's on a lift in a workshop. The mechanic was working on the front brakes. It had twin brake calipers on thick ventilated rotors! Stock, from the factory. I think there are also some older Rolls Royce models that use the same setup.
@@no-damn-alias well, actually there is an option, only that has different approach :) This setup is practical solution for a car that might need to stop once, so it has small discs and two calipers. Audi back in late 80's, when they were still using wheels not bigger than 15", but were coming up with engines exceeding 200 hp, giving decent performance to C3 platform cars, came up with UFO brakes, where wheel disc size was maximized by fitting the caliper from the inside, so the disc could take up whole space inside the wheel. If not for the trend of oversized wheels, that would probably be common solution today - instead, Audi with C4 S6 [C4 S4 used UFO] switched to ordinary brakes that required 17" wheels...
More caliper = more pistons to fill with brake fluid to generate same pressure. The braking force doesn't simply multiply with adding caliper. But neat idea. Maybe making the master cylinder bigger will do something great
Your right, but more surface area of pad to disc with the same pressure is the other way to look at it too. The limiting factor always ends up being the traction of tyre to road tho.
Actually it does. Say you have 10 psi and 1 sqin of piston. You have a force of 10 pounds on the pad. Add another 1 sqin piston, now you're exerting 20 pounds of force. Add another piston you have 30 lb force. The real numbers will be higher, those were chosen for simple math. The volume of fluid that the master can move is the issue. This is why it takes almost all the pedal travel before anything really happens. You can't impose the force on the disc with the pads until there is nothing else left to give, which translates to filling up all the slave cylinders with fluid. The sudden and uncontrollable braking at the end is the result of the slaves finally filling up and then squeezing with that full "30 lb" of force, something which normally happens way earlier in normal brake pedal travel, but with much more force on it. Pressure wise at the pads, he collectively has the equivalent of *standing* on the brake pedal, but because there's 3x the volume to fill, it takes 3x the pedal travel to reach it, and a lot less effort once it finally gets there. The real answer to the current design is to take the rear lines and route them to the front so the master is delivering 2x the volume. The braking force will be cut in half for any given pedal pressure but it will happen earlier in the pedal travel.
@@brotang2953And you are right to a point... however that logic only applies if the piston area stays the same but the pad size increases. What you have here is simple additive force. The idea is similar to why they add a 2nd piston to a single caliper. The brake force increases without needing more force on the pedal, at the expense of more pedal travel (due to more fluid being required to move the pistons the same distance).
@@fuzzy1dkYep. It is what allows a hydraulic jack to lift a car with only modest input from an arm. The trade-off is the more weight you need to lift, the bigger the difference in piston size needs to be (master vs slave), but this comes at the cost of needing to pump the master more than with a closer match. With the brakes, this translates to more pedal travel.
Master Cylinder has to increase in its volume in order to provide the pressures required for brakes. Adding additional Slave Cylinders the volume and thus pressure is divided across all pistons now lessening the overall pressure being applied to the pads now.
You're on the right track, but not quite. The cumulative pressure is far in excess of what a single caliper can provide, even with reduced supply volume. There's enough pedal stroke to supply all 6 calipers, barely, but at the end of the pedal stroke and with the ratio designed for 2 calipers. They need a higher volume master cylinder with a much shorter brake pedal arm pivot. There would be more volume and less mechanical advantage therefore a more easily modulated pedal.
This was interesting the best part of this episode is the way you guys put it all together. taking time to think it out .good job guys good machine work stick with 2 calipers .
Once you have sufficient braking force (pad and disc area), you cannot get any further improvements in braking without changing tyres and suspension, as these become the limiting factors. What would have been interesting here would have been to put extra weight in the car and test single and multiple callipers. You would have quickly found the limits of single calipers.
You wouldn't even have to do that, you can just get a master cylinder with a larger bore. It'll push more fluid for the same pedal travel. Most master cylinders are meant to run 4 calipers, but if you find a master cylinder with a 1/8" larger bore, you could probably run 6 calipers total just fine.
By adding calipers they changed the fluid volume ratio of the system giving mechanical advantage to the master cylinder. It is easier for the master cylinder to push a smaller volume into a larger volume which is why the pedal became more sensitive. Going to a larger bore cylinder would make the pedal harder giving less feel and response
Bullsh*t. Most cars have the wheels on the same axle on a common line. Provided that they are the same calliper bore size and the lines etc are the same, and there is not leaks/damage, the fluid will be uniformly distributed. This is Pascal's law.
No need to do that. The limitation is the tyregrip even with stock brakes. All this does is allows you to lock the fronts with less force on the brakepedal.
I was thinking the opposite. Without ABS you are really showing the effect in all its glory or infamy. If you wanted to show a more modern or higher level of tech, a larger master cylinder plus ABS would be neat, but would be even further removed from the norm. Remember things like ABS and traction control add extra variables.
@@whyjnot420 thats exactly why they should use it, with abs the variables are always the same, doesnt matter how hard you push the brakes and in the video he is incapable of aplying the same force to the pedal each time and keeps locking the wheels because he is a human and not a machine.
Sounds like youve surpassed the balance point of the master/slave cylinder hydraulic ratio if the pedal is hitting the floor on the 3rd pair of calipers. You need a part 2 video using a bigger bore master cylinder to match the combined volume of triple calipers. And then get some wider wheels and tyres! It'll end up stopping like an F1 car.
Maybe use a bigger brake booster and master cylinder from a v8/v10 or semi truck to help with pressure drops on the 3 caliper setup? I can imagine that car has a pretty common smaller booster and cylinder which doesn't provide the pressure required to make it work well indeed. I would also be interested to see how an ABS system would be able to deal with 2 or 3 calipers on each side.
I always wonder what happens if you have more that 1 caliper on a rotor... turns out they just heat up real quick that the braking is not efficient. Always love to see what you guys come up with :D
@@ARockyRock That's a cool fact!!! I never know that drifters did that, I always thought drifters use huge calipers with maximum bite forces and it never crossed my mind that they would do a double caliper only on one side!! Thanx for sharing this cool info !!
@@Cheetahtos Well, with how heavy it is and it is heavy 2.5 tons of luxury and power. Either it has a big rotor or I guess in my imagination how they make double disc brakes for motorcycle is what I had in mind. And after googling some parts bently did put 4 beefy calipers for those cars back then huh. Thanx for sharing the info this kinda stuff is always cool to find out about!!
I have an old 72 VW bug. I built a dual caliper kit for it about 12 years ago. Actually worked quite well. Had to get a larger master cylinder, but it felt like I have power brakes now. Been running it ever since
😮 agility and modulation were severely compromised with that last run kind of the reason why some competition drivers stick with their rubber brake lines and hoses and stay away from the stainless steel braided lined cuz you get better feel of modulation through the pedal
That is not what is happening. 1 caliper is almost good enough to stop the wheel at 100% brake force on the pedal. 3 calipers only need 30% pressure on the pedal to stop the wheel, so it is much harder to balance and find the perfect amount of force that is best.
@@markcdeyoung3118 I agree on the modulation. But what do you mean by agility? Brake lines and hoses that are as stiff as possible would give more feedback in the pedal, because the feedback is not dampened in lines and hoses that keep their shape under high pressure. Well made braided lines (not the show off ones) should have less flex then regular hoses and therefore deliver more direct feedback to the driver.
Great test guys...from my experience tinkering with brakes, as was said in the video, the master cylinder does not have enough volume to supply fluid to all the brake calipers....a longer master cylinder can help, but will have much longer pedal travel, a bigger diameter master cylinder will push out more fluid giving a greater chance of creating pressure in the brake hydraulic circuits, but will need much more effort from the driver....what can help is altering the stroke of the piston inside the master cylinder, usually the first piston to come out of the master cylinder sends fluid to the front wheels (front /rear split braking system), this piston can be measured for length, then fully compressed in a vise( to compress the spring till the limiter bottoms out), measure again the length, the difference in length will indicate the maximum volume this piston can push out, using a shorter limiter, you can increase the volume output of this piston, however you cannot exceed the maximum length of this piston as it also pushes on the second piston inside the master cylinder, if the second piston is pushed too far inside, it will pass the automatic fill up ports, causing more problems within the brake system- common test to see if a piston has passed the automatic fill up ports is to open the brake bleeders, if fluid does not run freely out the bleeders, the associated piston could be too far into the master cylinder
Creative car channels do not exist like this, this is a one of a kind channel, the imagination and ability to make what imagined a reality is inspiring, ingenuity and creativity , entertaining and interesting at the same time
As things go I've seen people make things for cars but you guys ain't even on a level, I've seen you guys make and build the most amazing and the most crazy things ever, keep it up chaps! Showing love from the UK!
Tyres make the biggest difference to the stopping distance. There’s no point in having powerful brakes if the tyres lose grip and cause the wheel to lock up.
Sounds like a wonderful idea in theory but I'm going to make an educated guess and say that since the calipers cover so much area thus limiting the rotors contact with cooling airflow that this will likely warp the rotors and damage them alot sooner than the stock setup and any gains in stopping power will not be able to offset that fact.
It's better to put more pistons in one caliper. You're increasing the amount of area pressing from behind the pad. Also, better brakes fade less. Better tires shorten your braking distance.
I thought that was going to happen. If you further the tests , you would have more success with a larger master cylinder that that matches a fluid volume of the 3 calipers, with a brake line coil to increase the sensitivity parameters. Sounds like a lot of fun 😁.
I suspect the difficulty in modulating the brakes comes from the fact that as you add calipers, you're effectively increasing the slave cylinder size, without increasing the master cylinder to compensate. As a result, pedal feel should start becoming spongy, making it harder to feel exactly what the brakes are doing.
this shows what most people dont understand, which is that braking capability comes down to TIRES, not the brakes. unless theres something wrong, most cars can lock up the brakes, so the limiting factor is the tire grip.
I don't expect the temperature to change much because it's the amount of energy that is absorbed by the rotors that stays the same. (the kinetic energy of the car)
You guys ate the ones! Great work. I always have wondered if you drop a big rubber flat floor against the ground, instead of wheel brakes what will happen
You should try it on a car with ABS. Also try to use a master cylinder from a large pickup. The truck master cylinder should give you a better volume for all 3 calipers, and abs would take care of the wheel lock up
A few months ago, I heard a RUclipsr mention something along the lines of, "It was never about brake discs or calipers-it's all about tires! One piece of evidence is the presence of ABS."
Love the fact your guys get it done they are great on the fly engineers!! You are willing to try crazy weird things I love it!! Thanks from America!!! Love ya! Keep it coming!!!!
I have a feeling you may need a little more pressure in the brake lines as they are spreading the lines to 3x. I may be wrong. I'm not a mechanic. Well done on the experiment, and well done for the translator. Thank you
Cut the centering rings from wheel hubs and drive via pot holes, to check if there is any load carried on the centering feature (and not only the studs/bolts like most people will claim). The goal is to even (maybe) shear the bolts or damage them and cause the wheel to vibrate (therefore the studs are NOT the only things that hold the wheel in place).
Bolt holes are slightly inaccurate, so the centering feature lets you center the wheel to minimize vibrations. The bolts don't do any load bearing. All the load bearing is entirely the friction that the bolts cause by CLAMPING together the wheel to the hub. Loose bolts shear rather quick (1-5 months), and lack of center features will reduce mileage and the steerability/traction of the car. It won't be too dramatic though.
@@dimitar4ywell written, many people doesnt seem to understand the basics of screw joints and forces. And some cars doesnt even have center hub centering from the factory.
@@garagecedric i like to understand things. a skill that is almost taboo in today's times it seems. won't help with krugerite knobheads though.. they "always know better"...
IDEA TO MAKE: Try to add a freewheel between transmission and diferential. So the engine rpm will decrease to idle everytime you take your foot off the gas pedal. Would like to see if the fuel consumption will decrease. 🤩
Probably getting some deflection between the individual calipers. The attachment point was (comparatively) thin metal, so when the brakes are loaded the angles deviate and the brakes "hook" immediately. Edit: 14:39 Air in the lines. Getting all the calipers bled would be a pain, but necessary for an accurate test.
If these guys survive an apocalypse, they will be kings of the automotive revival. They could make a entire car with chewing gum, and a running engine.
1. The engine looked like it was going to fall out (rattling away) 😁 2. The "argdididid" sounded like you were having a 💩 in the front seat 🤣 3. Will you try a larger Master cylinder and maybe ABS to prevent lockup? Great video 👍
Makes sense that the temperature of the brake rotor stays the same. It's the same energy that needs to be dissipated. Just the calipers share that energy, so they should become less hot when more calipers are used
(This is a reply to someone but YT isn't allowing my reply to go through) The ABS module only prevents wheel skid, so removing the ABS would improve the stopping distance, since more calipers, more grabbing force, But i surmise you need more brake pedal leverage to overpower the 3 calipers to lock up, Inadequate pedal pressure will not make the Calipers lock up due to more force being exerted against the driver's foot. In essence, the caliper pads are pushing away from the Brake Disc, nullifying or making the foot pressure less effective. Then again, bigger/Wider tires may improve the braking performance without modifying the stock braking system
Thanks for the content! Thanks for translation ! Bleeding might be a problem cause its only one side wich locks up everytime. Pretty sure they had a hard time bleeding left side
This was amusing! New things to try on the 3 caliper car: 1. We all knew the master cylinder wasn't able to handle 6 calipers. Since it's rear calipers are smaller than the fronts, you probably have capacity for 3 front calipers in it. Try this again with a bigger master cylinder that can handle the brake volume needed. 2. You were already exceeding tire grip on 4 calipers. Tire grip is the real limit of braking. Put MUCH WIDER tires on the front of the car so you have a lot more tire grip. Then try braking with 3 calipers in place.
There are some breaking systems that are not in wheel.the brakes are prior to the wheel causing a two part axle. Maybe then you can get a full caliper around the whole rotor but at that point it’s basically like having a souped up rare disc.
Maybe a proportioning valve installed, or even duel master cylinders with a proportionating valve to a set of calipers would do something, aswell as slotted and dilled rotors, id wanna see what that would change, as the slots with give each pad a fresh surface everytime it goes around and the drilled parts helping relieve gas to keep them cooler, maybe even carbon ceramic pads too, oo i got so many things id want to try on this idea!
Chrysler was going to design a caliper all around the the rotor. They figured that it was going to take less pressure to stop the car since the break pad was going to grip the entire rotor. Therefore they wanted to make it out of some hard plastic.
Original disk brakes have a clutch plate sort of brake pad that covers the entire rotor. Current disk brakes used to be called “spot brakes” because they only clamped a single spot on the rotor. So this is a step backwards in brake development.
Biggest issue is stopping force is relative to disc size. If they had discs the same size as the flywheel they used the circumference would provide excellent stopping power
I've seen endurance racing teams do this. There was however a racing regulation that mandated a certain number of pad changes, and teams were just gaming the rules. It may not have helped at all.
No many people give credit to the english translation voice over. He's very good and I love the personality characteristic he puts in. Thank you for making the video enjoyable for english speakers 😊
I hate the "hey there fellows" said so quick you'd think he would be sent of to the gulag if he said is any slower than 0.05 seconds 😂
Is it not a computer??
Credit to @Swapblogru
When the channel started most everyone gave credit to the translator. These days it's only the new guys who are surprised...
I was subscribed to the non English channel before I knew it existed now I can understand them lol😂 been a fan for years
one thing I really dig about these dudes is that they may not have a plan/schematic for doing the projects, but they are such skilled and gifted engineers that they can just start with an idea and work out the details as they go.
You defiantly want these guys on your team in a post-apocalyptic Road Warrior World.
Expert mechanics for mad max
I know, I believe they can do anything.
Legit these guys fab up anything you need. No fancy CNC or computers. Just good old fashioned skill
Americans just argue about how many genders there are while they do things like this in Russia.....
I want to emigrate.
They respect White, Christian, decent and wholesome people there.
The USA, not so much 😭
This guy is basically playing BeamNG in real life
LOL
i crached my car into a brige, i dont care, i love it!
Maybe add more wheels to the front and see how much braking you can actually get with more traction.
They could also start drilling the rotors if the additional wheels and brakes need the extra stopping power.
Would be better to take the rear lines and use them for more volume
Nah, wont change much. wider tire is not equals more traction. i saw here on youtube old german video, there was passanger car and semi truck, long story short it doesent matter how wide or skinny your tire is, if brakes can lock up wheel braking distance will be about the same. but softer tire compound will shorten distance
@@davidgoliath2331 "if brakes lock up" that's the point! Having more tire pushes that point further, hence achieving greater deceleration.
That is peak stupidity, I absolutely love it
Love this. Messing with brakes... Speed, shipping containers all over the place that if you hit, would be a sudden stop.
*No seat belt*
Only on Garage 54. Love it! 🤣
russia
It would be interesting to see how an ABS system would deal with 3 callipers. 🤔
I'm willing to bet the problem is brake fade. The rotor is hot from the previous caliper, causing reduced performance.
@@trm4life yeah, right toward the ends of the runs it does look like braking efficiency is reducing. The overly sensitive pedal was responsible but could be solved by reducing line pressure.
With a single line going to each? Exactly the same as a single, but you have 3x area than before so the ABS pump may not clamp hard enough anymore.
@@tsslaporte true, but with 3 callipers less braking force would be required per calliper. In theory you'd only need 1/3 the clamping force on each calliper which in the long run could potentially lead to better pad and rotor longevity.
I was just thinking it might blow up
3 calipers needs 3 pipe lines per disk.
not necessarily, for example front brake on some motorbikes
This has lots of potential for tinkering and I hope you try it more.
What you really need to do is increase your tire width or stickiness with each addition of a caliper. In the end, the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.
Keep at it!!!
Move to a larger bore master cylinder. .
More calipers means you split the volume of fluid. So a larger master is a must. It'll apply more brake pressure Wich seems to be lacking.
Bigger brakes won't stop you faster, wider tires will.
The heat by the multiple calipers isn't allowing time for the rotor to cool so you're getting instant fade.
Fade? The wheel skids! As long as you can lock up the wheel fade would be irrelevant.
The energy going into the rotor is in any cases cooled from inside via vent channels, not from outside and the total amount of energy to dissipate is constant.
The heat is a byproduct of the kinetic energy of the car. Multiple calipers spreads that heat over them, so each individual caliper doesn't get as hot as a single one does. The problem with multiple calipers is that they don't give as much rotor access to fresh air for cooling (they reduce effective rotor surface area)
@@shadowboy813 Agreed, and exactly what I said: Same heat input regardless of number of calipers.
But, cooling of a brake rotor happens more on inside of it than outside. This is why it is not just a flat plate but two plates in a ribbed sandwich. The internal ribs act as a fan. Also, fading is reduced by not letting a pad create as much friction by letting multiple pads work together. Bigger and almost always better brakes use larger pads for this exact reason.
@@shadowboy813 welp will make even more heat combined and that heat will transfer between each so you say it spreads heat out each one makes heating each other up.
By the " heat by the multiple callipers isn't allowing time for the rotor to cool" logic, you should be able to take the stock brakes, using a single calliper, and cut the pads in two to get better braking performance. As others have stated, the energy required to stop the car is constant so there is no additional heat produced. I would argue that the greater mass of the additional brake pads, their backing plates and callipers will help dissipate the heat better. This is why performance brake callipers are finned.
Oh and wider tires stopping you faster is not always correct. It all has to do with the contact patch, and your wider tire may have a smaller contact patch, and your tire construction will likely be a stiffer sidewall to support the wider carcass, meaning it will be less compliant fore/aft - why drag cars have soft sidewalls to improve grip under acceleration but can't corner for crap.
I remembered seeing a Mercedes 600 Pullman (W100) from the 1960's on a lift in a workshop. The mechanic was working on the front brakes. It had twin brake calipers on thick ventilated rotors! Stock, from the factory.
I think there are also some older Rolls Royce models that use the same setup.
Well, they had to use such setup - these are heavy cars and I suspect that wheels are rather small, and so are brake rotors.
The W116 6.9 has a very similar set up. What else can you do when 14 inch wheels have to fit.
@@no-damn-alias well, actually there is an option, only that has different approach :) This setup is practical solution for a car that might need to stop once, so it has small discs and two calipers. Audi back in late 80's, when they were still using wheels not bigger than 15", but were coming up with engines exceeding 200 hp, giving decent performance to C3 platform cars, came up with UFO brakes, where wheel disc size was maximized by fitting the caliper from the inside, so the disc could take up whole space inside the wheel. If not for the trend of oversized wheels, that would probably be common solution today - instead, Audi with C4 S6 [C4 S4 used UFO] switched to ordinary brakes that required 17" wheels...
@@mshathlonxp well they ditched the system for a reason. No need to reinvent the wheel
Some of the newer Mercedes and Maybach long wheelbase Vehicles also use dual calipers on the front.
More caliper = more pistons to fill with brake fluid to generate same pressure. The braking force doesn't simply multiply with adding caliper. But neat idea. Maybe making the master cylinder bigger will do something great
Your right, but more surface area of pad to disc with the same pressure is the other way to look at it too. The limiting factor always ends up being the traction of tyre to road tho.
more/bigger caliper pistons and/or smaller master cylinder piston make the braking pressure higher, that's the whole point of hydraulics
Actually it does.
Say you have 10 psi and 1 sqin of piston. You have a force of 10 pounds on the pad.
Add another 1 sqin piston, now you're exerting 20 pounds of force.
Add another piston you have 30 lb force.
The real numbers will be higher, those were chosen for simple math.
The volume of fluid that the master can move is the issue. This is why it takes almost all the pedal travel before anything really happens. You can't impose the force on the disc with the pads until there is nothing else left to give, which translates to filling up all the slave cylinders with fluid.
The sudden and uncontrollable braking at the end is the result of the slaves finally filling up and then squeezing with that full "30 lb" of force, something which normally happens way earlier in normal brake pedal travel, but with much more force on it.
Pressure wise at the pads, he collectively has the equivalent of *standing* on the brake pedal, but because there's 3x the volume to fill, it takes 3x the pedal travel to reach it, and a lot less effort once it finally gets there.
The real answer to the current design is to take the rear lines and route them to the front so the master is delivering 2x the volume.
The braking force will be cut in half for any given pedal pressure but it will happen earlier in the pedal travel.
@@brotang2953And you are right to a point... however that logic only applies if the piston area stays the same but the pad size increases.
What you have here is simple additive force. The idea is similar to why they add a 2nd piston to a single caliper. The brake force increases without needing more force on the pedal, at the expense of more pedal travel (due to more fluid being required to move the pistons the same distance).
@@fuzzy1dkYep. It is what allows a hydraulic jack to lift a car with only modest input from an arm. The trade-off is the more weight you need to lift, the bigger the difference in piston size needs to be (master vs slave), but this comes at the cost of needing to pump the master more than with a closer match. With the brakes, this translates to more pedal travel.
Bugatti must be taking notes😂😂
Master Cylinder has to increase in its volume in order to provide the pressures required for brakes. Adding additional Slave Cylinders the volume and thus pressure is divided across all pistons now lessening the overall pressure being applied to the pads now.
You're on the right track, but not quite.
The cumulative pressure is far in excess of what a single caliper can provide, even with reduced supply volume.
There's enough pedal stroke to supply all 6 calipers, barely, but at the end of the pedal stroke and with the ratio designed for 2 calipers.
They need a higher volume master cylinder with a much shorter brake pedal arm pivot.
There would be more volume and less mechanical advantage therefore a more easily modulated pedal.
@@carwashadamcooper1538 🎯
This was interesting the best part of this episode is the way you guys put it all together. taking time to think it out .good job guys good machine work stick with 2 calipers .
I think tyre will be the bottleneck
Once you have sufficient braking force (pad and disc area), you cannot get any further improvements in braking without changing tyres and suspension, as these become the limiting factors.
What would have been interesting here would have been to put extra weight in the car and test single and multiple callipers.
You would have quickly found the limits of single calipers.
When you're not able to lock your front wheels with a single caliper, something is really wrong. That should be the first point of optimisation.
You might need a master cylinder for each wheel and a manifold to distribute the brake fluid from there, equally to each brake caliper.
This is the issue right here
You wouldn't even have to do that, you can just get a master cylinder with a larger bore. It'll push more fluid for the same pedal travel. Most master cylinders are meant to run 4 calipers, but if you find a master cylinder with a 1/8" larger bore, you could probably run 6 calipers total just fine.
By adding calipers they changed the fluid volume ratio of the system giving mechanical advantage to the master cylinder. It is easier for the master cylinder to push a smaller volume into a larger volume which is why the pedal became more sensitive. Going to a larger bore cylinder would make the pedal harder giving less feel and response
Bullsh*t. Most cars have the wheels on the same axle on a common line. Provided that they are the same calliper bore size and the lines etc are the same, and there is not leaks/damage, the fluid will be uniformly distributed. This is Pascal's law.
No need to do that. The limitation is the tyregrip even with stock brakes. All this does is allows you to lock the fronts with less force on the brakepedal.
Next time you should try to use a car with ABS to really see the diferrence between using 1,2 or 3 calippers, good video anyway!!
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I was thinking the opposite. Without ABS you are really showing the effect in all its glory or infamy. If you wanted to show a more modern or higher level of tech, a larger master cylinder plus ABS would be neat, but would be even further removed from the norm. Remember things like ABS and traction control add extra variables.
@@whyjnot420 thats exactly why they should use it, with abs the variables are always the same, doesnt matter how hard you push the brakes and in the video he is incapable of aplying the same force to the pedal each time and keeps locking the wheels because he is a human and not a machine.
@@xxn0cturn3xx So you mean a difference in practical application, not just _the_ difference.
Have a master cylinder for each caliper and a wider tire with abs. I would be curious to see what happens then
Definitely needs more grip.
I would also add 3 brake calipers on the front and back and then try it, and I would add some kind of servo to support the braking force😊
Sounds like youve surpassed the balance point of the master/slave cylinder hydraulic ratio if the pedal is hitting the floor on the 3rd pair of calipers. You need a part 2 video using a bigger bore master cylinder to match the combined volume of triple calipers. And then get some wider wheels and tyres! It'll end up stopping like an F1 car.
Your videos are awesome! You should run the same tests with some really sticky tires. I bet that would be insane.
Can you make an inline 7 engine by welding older engines together like you did with the inline 6 ?
Would sound so cool.
Excellent torque characteristics, too.
@@GemstoneActual does that mean it would have a high base torque stats? Wonder what it would sound like
I really appreciate you're guy's approach to engineering. Test, test, and test more. Than look at data. I also appreciate the english voice over!
Maybe use a bigger brake booster and master cylinder from a v8/v10 or semi truck to help with pressure drops on the 3 caliper setup? I can imagine that car has a pretty common smaller booster and cylinder which doesn't provide the pressure required to make it work well indeed. I would also be interested to see how an ABS system would be able to deal with 2 or 3 calipers on each side.
How any calipers do you want per rotor ?
Yes.
I always wonder what happens if you have more that 1 caliper on a rotor... turns out they just heat up real quick that the braking is not efficient. Always love to see what you guys come up with :D
I do know that some drift rotors have 2 calipers on them to lock up one set of wheels real good
1998 Bentley brookland & Turbo-R using 2 brake caliper for each front wheel, and they are doing great. The car weight 2500 kg btw..
@@ARockyRock That's a cool fact!!! I never know that drifters did that, I always thought drifters use huge calipers with maximum bite forces and it never crossed my mind that they would do a double caliper only on one side!! Thanx for sharing this cool info !!
@@Cheetahtos Well, with how heavy it is and it is heavy 2.5 tons of luxury and power. Either it has a big rotor or I guess in my imagination how they make double disc brakes for motorcycle is what I had in mind. And after googling some parts bently did put 4 beefy calipers for those cars back then huh. Thanx for sharing the info this kinda stuff is always cool to find out about!!
Aston martins use two in the rear
Bleeding this system has to be a fucking nightmare!!! Fuck that!!
Have you guys ever considered using magnetic eddy current braking?
lol even more heat
some guy did that on a bicycle and it barely did anything. on a car it would literally do nothing and make for a boring video
They really only work well at higher speeds.
I have an old 72 VW bug. I built a dual caliper kit for it about 12 years ago. Actually worked quite well. Had to get a larger master cylinder, but it felt like I have power brakes now. Been running it ever since
😮 agility and modulation were severely compromised with that last run kind of the reason why some competition drivers stick with their rubber brake lines and hoses and stay away from the stainless steel braided lined cuz you get better feel of modulation through the pedal
That is not what is happening.
1 caliper is almost good enough to stop the wheel at 100% brake force on the pedal.
3 calipers only need 30% pressure on the pedal to stop the wheel, so it is much harder to balance and find the perfect amount of force that is best.
@@larsjrgensen5975 definition of modulation
@@markcdeyoung3118 I agree on the modulation.
But what do you mean by agility?
Brake lines and hoses that are as stiff as possible would give more feedback in the pedal, because the feedback is not dampened in lines and hoses that keep their shape under high pressure.
Well made braided lines (not the show off ones) should have less flex then regular hoses and therefore deliver more direct feedback to the driver.
Great test guys...from my experience tinkering with brakes, as was said in the video, the master cylinder does not have enough volume to supply fluid to all the brake calipers....a longer master cylinder can help, but will have much longer pedal travel, a bigger diameter master cylinder will push out more fluid giving a greater chance of creating pressure in the brake hydraulic circuits, but will need much more effort from the driver....what can help is altering the stroke of the piston inside the master cylinder, usually the first piston to come out of the master cylinder sends fluid to the front wheels (front /rear split braking system), this piston can be measured for length, then fully compressed in a vise( to compress the spring till the limiter bottoms out), measure again the length, the difference in length will indicate the maximum volume this piston can push out, using a shorter limiter, you can increase the volume output of this piston, however you cannot exceed the maximum length of this piston as it also pushes on the second piston inside the master cylinder, if the second piston is pushed too far inside, it will pass the automatic fill up ports, causing more problems within the brake system- common test to see if a piston has passed the automatic fill up ports is to open the brake bleeders, if fluid does not run freely out the bleeders, the associated piston could be too far into the master cylinder
Put a turbo on a none turbo engine see how it goes 😮😂
Plenty videos of this already. This is done far more often than you think..
Volvo basically did that...at 0.3bar boost it holds up just fine
Creative car channels do not exist like this, this is a one of a kind channel, the imagination and ability to make what imagined a reality is inspiring, ingenuity and creativity , entertaining and interesting at the same time
please marry 2 engines at the crank and make a v8... we already have an i6, thats the only logical next step!
As things go I've seen people make things for cars but you guys ain't even on a level, I've seen you guys make and build the most amazing and the most crazy things ever, keep it up chaps! Showing love from the UK!
Tyres make the biggest difference to the stopping distance. There’s no point in having powerful brakes if the tyres lose grip and cause the wheel to lock up.
I love this channel. Not afraid at all of doing wild stuff that is just fascinating!! Big fan! (Narrator as well!)
Sounds like a wonderful idea in theory but I'm going to make an educated guess and say that since the calipers cover so much area thus limiting the rotors contact with cooling airflow that this will likely warp the rotors and damage them alot sooner than the stock setup and any gains in stopping power will not be able to offset that fact.
The best youtube channel in the world.
It's better to put more pistons in one caliper. You're increasing the amount of area pressing from behind the pad.
Also, better brakes fade less. Better tires shorten your braking distance.
Doing multiple calipers gives the same effect of multiplying pistons. Also increases the fluid volume ratio of the system giving the pedal more feel
I thought that was going to happen. If you further the tests , you would have more success with a larger master cylinder that that matches a fluid volume of the 3 calipers, with a brake line coil to increase the sensitivity parameters. Sounds like a lot of fun 😁.
I suspect the difficulty in modulating the brakes comes from the fact that as you add calipers, you're effectively increasing the slave cylinder size, without increasing the master cylinder to compensate. As a result, pedal feel should start becoming spongy, making it harder to feel exactly what the brakes are doing.
Incredible
this shows what most people dont understand, which is that braking capability comes down to TIRES, not the brakes. unless theres something wrong, most cars can lock up the brakes, so the limiting factor is the tire grip.
I don't expect the temperature to change much because it's the amount of energy that is absorbed by the rotors that stays the same. (the kinetic energy of the car)
There's less surface area able to be cooled I'd say
Fascinating, great stuff, love it. May I ask what and why your associate sprayed on disc before measuring temperature?😊
You guys ate the ones! Great work. I always have wondered if you drop a big rubber flat floor against the ground, instead of wheel brakes what will happen
The most creative automotive channel on the tubes. Another banger 👍
This guy still at it with the crazy builds I love it 10 years later
You should try it on a car with ABS. Also try to use a master cylinder from a large pickup. The truck master cylinder should give you a better volume for all 3 calipers, and abs would take care of the wheel lock up
A few months ago, I heard a RUclipsr mention something along the lines of, "It was never about brake discs or calipers-it's all about tires! One piece of evidence is the presence of ABS."
Love the fact your guys get it done they are great on the fly engineers!! You are willing to try crazy weird things I love it!! Thanks from America!!! Love ya! Keep it coming!!!!
A car with ABS and not winter tires would be a better base for this test.
I have a feeling you may need a little more pressure in the brake lines as they are spreading the lines to 3x. I may be wrong. I'm not a mechanic. Well done on the experiment, and well done for the translator. Thank you
Cut the centering rings from wheel hubs and drive via pot holes, to check if there is any load carried on the centering feature (and not only the studs/bolts like most people will claim). The goal is to even (maybe) shear the bolts or damage them and cause the wheel to vibrate (therefore the studs are NOT the only things that hold the wheel in place).
Bolt holes are slightly inaccurate, so the centering feature lets you center the wheel to minimize vibrations. The bolts don't do any load bearing. All the load bearing is entirely the friction that the bolts cause by CLAMPING together the wheel to the hub. Loose bolts shear rather quick (1-5 months), and lack of center features will reduce mileage and the steerability/traction of the car. It won't be too dramatic though.
@@dimitar4ywell written, many people doesnt seem to understand the basics of screw joints and forces. And some cars doesnt even have center hub centering from the factory.
@@garagecedric i like to understand things. a skill that is almost taboo in today's times it seems. won't help with krugerite knobheads though.. they "always know better"...
Thank you from old Eu 🙂
IDEA TO MAKE: Try to add a freewheel between transmission and diferential. So the engine rpm will decrease to idle everytime you take your foot off the gas pedal. Would like to see if the fuel consumption will decrease. 🤩
*_I wonder how much better it would perform with stainless steel lines??_*
This channel answers many of my questions.
This is a perfect illustration of the fact that bigger brakes will not make you stop faster. Braking is traction limited, just like acceleration.
That engine bouncing around is hilarious 😂
Probably getting some deflection between the individual calipers.
The attachment point was (comparatively) thin metal, so when the brakes are loaded the angles deviate and the brakes "hook" immediately.
Edit:
14:39 Air in the lines. Getting all the calipers bled would be a pain, but necessary for an accurate test.
I wonder if the addition of the 3rd set of calipers is causing the 2nd and 3rd caliper to lose brake pad grip that a set of vented rotors might cure
If these guys survive an apocalypse, they will be kings of the automotive revival. They could make a entire car with chewing gum, and a running engine.
Love this! It proves the limiting factor is the traction of the tires. jam up job men!
Keep up the great ideas. What you do is fun and very interesting. Thanks for your great work and presentations
I love how they are doing an experimental braking system test pointed directly at some shipping containers with no seatbelt hahaha
1. The engine looked like it was going to fall out (rattling away) 😁
2. The "argdididid" sounded like you were having a 💩 in the front seat 🤣
3. Will you try a larger Master cylinder and maybe ABS to prevent lockup? Great video
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Makes sense that the temperature of the brake rotor stays the same. It's the same energy that needs to be dissipated. Just the calipers share that energy, so they should become less hot when more calipers are used
That one guy who can fit 4💀
(This is a reply to someone but YT isn't allowing my reply to go through)
The ABS module only prevents wheel skid, so removing the ABS would improve the stopping distance, since more calipers, more grabbing force, But i surmise you need more brake pedal leverage to overpower the 3 calipers to lock up, Inadequate pedal pressure will not make the Calipers lock up due to more force being exerted against the driver's foot.
In essence, the caliper pads are pushing away from the Brake Disc, nullifying or making the foot pressure less effective.
Then again, bigger/Wider tires may improve the braking performance without modifying the stock braking system
3 brake calipers on one rotor??
Bro's gonna stop before he even starts 💀😂😂😂😂
It may brake differently if it had 2 calipers on all 4 corners I love watching this guy and his team
looks futuristic as heck!
Awesome 👌
Thanks for the content!
Thanks for translation !
Bleeding might be a problem cause its only one side wich locks up everytime. Pretty sure they had a hard time bleeding left side
This was amusing! New things to try on the 3 caliper car:
1. We all knew the master cylinder wasn't able to handle 6 calipers. Since it's rear calipers are smaller than the fronts, you probably have capacity for 3 front calipers in it. Try this again with a bigger master cylinder that can handle the brake volume needed.
2. You were already exceeding tire grip on 4 calipers. Tire grip is the real limit of braking. Put MUCH WIDER tires on the front of the car so you have a lot more tire grip. Then try braking with 3 calipers in place.
This is what I'm amazed with this channel, experiment works.❤
When you need to stop on " yes meters " from start braking 😂😂😂
This experiment called for a higher capacity master cylinder
Need 2 master cylinders for the brakes 1 for each side will help compensate..Great job again always fun to watch..😊
love the experiment , love the channel... i had this isea before, but with 2 calipers
This is one of my most favourite channels on RUclips.
Proper propaganda. For the good little sheep.
Not gonna lie 3 brake calibers looks really cool
There are some breaking systems that are not in wheel.the brakes are prior to the wheel causing a two part axle. Maybe then you can get a full caliper around the whole rotor but at that point it’s basically like having a souped up rare disc.
Nice test guys!
Seems a larger master cylinder would be needed to move enough brake fluid for three calipers.
Maybe a proportioning valve installed, or even duel master cylinders with a proportionating valve to a set of calipers would do something, aswell as slotted and dilled rotors, id wanna see what that would change, as the slots with give each pad a fresh surface everytime it goes around and the drilled parts helping relieve gas to keep them cooler, maybe even carbon ceramic pads too, oo i got so many things id want to try on this idea!
3 calipers can be used in motorsports for a braking system where calipers take turns with braking so calipers wont overheat.
I remember a comment requesting this in the last video, crazy that you guys actually went and did it😅
these dudes are all of the mechanics intrusive thoughts 🤣
Keep it up with the weird and the insane.
Chrysler was going to design a caliper all around the the rotor. They figured that it was going to take less pressure to stop the car since the break pad was going to grip the entire rotor. Therefore they wanted to make it out of some hard plastic.
Original disk brakes have a clutch plate sort of brake pad that covers the entire rotor. Current disk brakes used to be called “spot brakes” because they only clamped a single spot on the rotor. So this is a step backwards in brake development.
This is like a 6pot upgrade with out upgrades on anything else still cool to see how it all worked
Biggest issue is stopping force is relative to disc size. If they had discs the same size as the flywheel they used the circumference would provide excellent stopping power
This video is actually a great example of the Law of Diminishing Returns. More is only better up to a certain point.
I've seen endurance racing teams do this. There was however a racing regulation that mandated a certain number of pad changes, and teams were just gaming the rules. It may not have helped at all.
Four is best then. But a normal car has 4 spread around.