Ngl, was my favourite part of the video. And to make it even better, while I was editing this last night, we had a crazy thunderstorm, so while replaying this clip flashing on my screen, I was watching the lightning flash through my window too. (I use UPS so don't worry, computer was safe from the storm, no power outages anyway)
A buddy picked up an 8k mouse couldn't stop talking about how amazing it felt, how it improved his game etc etc. I was over about 4 months ago and set it to 1k. Was over again a couple weeks ago and it was still 1k. I asked him how he was liking the mouse, he started going on and on again. I told him to check his polling rate and told him it was all in his head. He was pissed, not at me, but at spending that much money and it all being in his head.
@@RocketJumpNinja my buddy did the same thing to me but I noticed from 2k to 1k but by very little but I was 100 percent right out of 20 tests.. i was aware of the 19 other tests tho so maybe some luck. Either way I have many 8k mice and will probably never use 8k over just 2k
@@RocketJumpNinja I feel the difference in smoothness and responsiveness right away if I change the setting from 8 kHz to 1 kHz while playing CS2, and my flicks in quick situations aren't as accurate with 1 kHz because I've gotten used to the 8 kHz setting. In general, higher polling rate kind of makes it feel like the mouse has more DPI without changing the actual tracking speed, but you definitely can feel the difference in smoothness and flicks if you suddenly change from 8 kHz to 1 kHz.
Definitely true. I always recommend to people to save up for an OLED because it's the device that's gonna make the most difference by far apart from maybe a better PC.
People want to change what they can change with minimal efforts. Ping difference can't be easily changed, and monitor requires more fps to see the effects which leads to upgrade, thus more effort.
Thanks champ! Yeah I would love if a channel did genuine blind tests with someone who truly believed they could tell the difference... they'd have to be super human or very lucky to get it right consistently, surely.
It's hard to notice, but you do notice them in VR whey playing something super fast paced like Beat Saber on Expert and Expert+ levels. But it just the accuracy gets worse and more mistakes. E.g Display Port delay (let's call it real time (it's around 15-20ms) vs compressed through Oculus Link or similar that adds 35-60ms of latency on top for compression decompression etc., and you miss so much more blocks. So, yeah, when latency adds up you feel it :)
@@RocketJumpNinja you can take a look at Latency Split Test: Find Your Lag Threshold made by Aperture Grille. People have done that, and we are multiple people who have been able to get 10-12 correct at around 4-5ms
My mouse runs on depleted uranium, slaying noobs really is better at gamma ray frequency polling rate. Downside: I've started to develop some weird skin condition, not sure why....
Disabling CPU C-States on almost any system will allow 2khz and higher to work in pretty much every game. Higher polling rates will still raise your overall CPU usage, but disabling C-States will allow the interrupts to be processed properly. 4khz and higher does feel a bit smoother, personally, but it's very inconsequential. When games start running at 1000fps and 1000hz monitors are the norm, then sure, 8khz polling will be "better".
even running at 1000fps and with 1000hz monitors, your movements and reactions aren't ever going to necessitate 8khz of updates from the mouse, and you wouldn't be able to perceive the difference in movements anyway. for humans there will never be any benefit to a polling rate that high.
@@AquilaeYT This is verifiably untrue. Older platforms especially benefit from this. My 9900k with C-States enabled gets the same issues RJN has in this video. Disabling C-States solves it. It's literally the cores being put into lower power states dynamically by C-States that causes the USB interrupts to not be processed properly on many platforms. Some of the newer, better CPUs are more efficient at this natively, true, but even they can still benefit from having it disabled.
@@ArrythmiaFPS Think what you want but it is simply how it is. There is strictly no direct related issues between high polling rate and C-States setting, this may due to your specific configuration. I don't know about your old specific configuration but C-States won't directly interfere with USB in newer platform and don't restrict the amount of data and the rate of it, there is no difference at all, you can doubt as you want but keep in mind that all motherboard are don't optimized the same as others. In your case, that's just subjective.
@ArrythmiaFPS Do you have some documentation or proof(s) or this is just gist and speculation? I want to believe and test it myself, but it would be a waste of time if it really doesn't make a difference.
I'm on a wired mouse anyway and my PC is good enough to handle it. Only 8k causes some problems in older games but that's about it. On wireless I only ever use 2k or 4k. I would never buy a dongle just for that though. If it's included, cool, otherwise don't bother.
@@jR0xas I have a pretty decent PC (7900x with a 3080) and I honestly cannot notice any difference when switching between the different polling rates on my mouse.
Ive had the same thoughts for ages. Its just not meaningful enough to use 8k. Cool to see tech pushed further but other aspect of a gaming mouse are far more meaningful. And also your time training/improving
Yeah for sure. So what's a good way for marketers to promote mice without fancy pointless numbers? Maybe if we can give them an alternative they can start focusing on things that actually matter...
Polling rate is about accuracy of movement data effectively. Your mouse is a small camera and DPI is the resolution of that camera. It's more sensitive because as you increase that resolution it will detect much smaller movements and translate that to input because it has a greater resolution (dots/units) in the photos it takes. Higher DPI does not add speed or acceleration, it's simply that lower dpi does not capture as much movement at the lower resolution. The DSP is the processor that compares movement from let's say position X to position Y from pictures taken 59μs (microseconds) apart. Now after that calculation has been performed your mouse will update your PC via usb every 1ms. Relative to the speed of the sensor, it's somewhat slow. However take 8000Hz which is updating effectively every 125μs (microseconds) we are now able to update the PC based on the movement taken from our tiny camera much closer to a 1:1 ratio. What does this mean in practice? Greater accuracy in movement. The mouse is communicating a more accurate picture of how you got from position X to position Y to the PC. At 1000Hz or 1000μs or 1ms (microseconds) we are still being told we have moved from position X to position Y because the algorithm is still accurately working that out, but with 8000Hz we are getting more movement data along the way. In terms of latecy, you're gaining 875μs (microseconds) so that is basically imperceptible. What you are gaining is accuracy of movement. You have more data points along the line from point X to point Y which will result in something like this (exaggerated) imgur.com/a/6JR43qy The point here I guess is that at a gaming computing level 1ms is a very long time. Your game frames are ideally generated probably in 3-4ms time period but that is end to end system frames. Your mouse camera (sensor) is capable of taking pictures FAR faster than what the mouse processor currently can keep up with, so the logical thing to do is to have the mouse processor operate faster to keep up with the sensor. In theory, your game engine (assuming it's not locked to updating the input position every 1ms) can get a more accurate input of where you moved your mouse to get from point X to point Y. It's important to understand that ultimately if you move from point X to point Y, you will always end up at point Y because the algorithm itself will be accurate. The question is do the data points in between matter that much? Looking at various scenarios, small movements? Probably not. Big flicks? In some very exceptional edge cases, maybe. But most likely probably not. The test you do at 2:15 I wouldn't necessarily expect to see "better" drawings of those shapes. I'd potentially expect worse because you are getting finer movements that you wouldn't have seen before. So any tiny imperfections in the movement will now translate into data. It's really hard to see where the benefits of 8k data will be except on paper, but assuming in the future we will get end to end system latency into sub 1ms time then it possibly will have benefits there.
All this useless wall of text just to conclude "it's possible in the future it might be useful". And it's pure speculation too, because literally nothing you said confutates anything said in video. ChatGTP ahh comment.
Man, I love you! This video perfectly explains why I always follow your advice about mice. I bought the Zowie FK2 based on your recommendation and used it for 7 years without a single worry. Now, here we are again discussing this topic. While all the tech channels are saying to upgrade your PC and set the DPI high to achieve that near-8kHz polling rate, your video makes it crystal clear that it’s just not worth it. Thank you so much!
There is actually someone who did record a blind test themselves using a python script setting the polling rate to a random number. He could consistently tell the difference by moving the cursor in circles in desktop, between 1000, 2000 and 4000 Hz. Still, it's really a stretch. EDIT: here it is ruclips.net/video/s5ukK3krGp4/видео.html
3:40 Visually yes, but that's why people talk about smoothness and how it's supposed to feel different. It's the same about screens : there was people who used to say that you shouldn't care too much about a screen's response time « because you can't see the difference unless you are a superhuman », but you can feel it. The response time of the screen affects stuff like ghosting, artifacts or overall latency feel. That's why when I watch someone playing on a 144hz, it feels so fluid, even more than mine. Then I had someone play on my own screen ... and it felt more smooth than usual : that's because I'm not playing, even tho when playing I can feel the difference between 120 and 144 fps. After some testing myself in OW2, just switching between 1K and 2K I could notice when I forgot I was using 1K because it would feel just a tiny bit different. I haven't tried a complete blind test, but just like it feels more sluggish when I use 500hz, it's just a tiny bit faster when using 2K. I could go 4K but I don't want the battery to drain too fast and 8K ... I'm not even sure it's properly implemented anyway so why bother It's not a gimmick but it's clearly not a need. You're gaining so little there's just no use for most people. Stick to whatever honestly, but don't pick an 8K mouse because it's 8K lol, that's stupid. Refresh rate should be the last thing you think about when picking a mouse, everything is at least 1K, which is already enough. Shape is much more important, build quality, clicks and buttons, sensor, software and features ... are also more important
I didn’t notice any improvement in latency at 2K or 4k, but I do believe I noticed an improvement in motion smoothness/jitter. When a frame is drawn and displayed every 6.9ms (144Hz) or 4.2ms (240Hz) it probably does make a difference if the delay between polling the mouse and rendering of the frame can vary by up to 1ms. Makes sense to me. Still sent the mouse back because the shape was uncomfortable and the software was chinesium unsigned drivers.
Could not agree more. I've been sharing the same thoughts for a while now. 2-8k is absolutely bs marketing. They need to sell us a new number because nobody gives a shit about DPI anymore.
I feel like I can barely discern the difference between 1k and 2k polling when I am specifically using them back to back, and looking for the differences in smoothness. The difference that I think I can discern is so minor that I still run 1k though. It's not worth my concern, so I'll take the extra battery life.
I switched to 500Hz after the release of Modern Warfare 2019. For some reason, the mouse movement felt kind of weird at 1000Hz. And then I found two solutions: either disable the Filmic T2x anti-aliasing and play with horrible pixel shadows, or just lower the mouse polling rate to 500Hz. I chose the second option.
I have a 280Hz monitor, and honestly, the only noticeable difference between 1K and 4K polling rates is a slight improvement in cursor consistency when moving it around in Windows. That’s really it. In games, most are optimized to track your mouse smoothly at 1K polling, so unless you’re using a 4000Hz monitor, I doubt anyone could actually feel a difference beyond a placebo effect. In reality, 4K polling mostly brings the drawbacks mentioned in this video, without offering any meaningful advantages. Same for 8k obviously.
I would love to see LTT make a blind test like they did with monitor refresh rates a few years back. grab a couple of pros and some casuals and see if any of them can actually tell the difference between 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 8000hz. my assumption would be that linus and some of the LTT staff would maybe be able to tell the difference between 500 and 1000 and that pros could maybe feel the difference between 1000 and anything higher, but could not accurately identify differences between 2000, 4000 and 8000 in a blind scenario
No test is required. The difference between 60-500hz monitors can be filmed and you will see the difference in slo-mo. But the difference between 1000-8000hz in mice is so small that it would be too hard to film. And it would be impossible to feel
@@jprice_ that difference is definitely something you can feel but 500 vs 1000 should be nearly impossible to feel a difference. Everything over 1k is nothing more than a marketingjoke and no one will ever feel any difference.
@@iPain3G you can definitely feel the jump from 500 to 1000 lol. Especially in things where fluid motion happens over long periods (bhopping/surfing on counterstrike for example). Over 1k; theres really no difference. Its like jumping from 60hz to 144hz. This is a MASSIVE difference; but above 144hz, and the proportionality of gain becomes less and less.
i use a deathadder v3 pro i feel 4sure the 8k hz, use 800 dpi, just do a 180, you will see the diff. if i try to use 4k hz i cant even turn arround the sameway, so the sensivity changes thats a fact. i use .89 sens, with 8k i can react just fine with enimies flanking, but with 4k the sensivity it comes short, for what i used 8k for my advantage is using a lower sens with a higher capacity to react and reach the flanks
I'll be honest with you I feel like I can notice 8k when i switch to it but one time i turned it down to 1k to play a story game and forgot to turn it back up and only realised after i finished a ranked game lol
I would say 2k Hz is a good sweet spot to be honest, it just makes sense. If there's an argument to be made against 2k vs 1k, we can also do the same for 1k vs 500 Hz. I don't think many people (if any) will consistently be able to tell the difference between 500hz and 1k Hz, but it's logical to conclude it is slightly better and can give slight performance gains just like 2k vs 1k, even though the gains will for sure be diminished.
there's visible difference between 500hz and 1000hz, just watch optimumtech's video on polling rate. anything over 1khz is overkill and doesn't actually yield better results that are even remotely noticeable
? he spoke about this in the video, You reaction time is more than 150ms, 8k deacrease lag by 0.8ms, you have more chance to win lottery than for this diff to make you win ONE INTERACTION in game
@@Low-Eek it would make you win any interaction where there'd be two players shooting each other at the same time. The one with the faster mouse would win.
@@axiriac I mean just because trying to notice 1khz vs 2khz+ is very difficult doesn't mean you don't benefit. It's still runs faster regardless of your perception.
There's an input delay every time the mouse is in complete still position to a full motion. Once in motion it 1 ms at 1000hz and no one will feel the difference after it's 'in the motion' but that sudden start is what could be the measured case at high DPI low sense scenario.
I'd be super interested to know how polling rates and hall effect is improving keyboard technology and quality in general, if that's something youre interested in.
There are also some fixes that helped make 8khz stable for me In your motherboard bios enable/disable these settings Disable c states Disable cppc Disable cppc preferred cores L1 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled -L2 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled These settings made 8khz stable for me
Thumbs up for trying to keep people grounded in reality. Gaming mouse subreddit along with modern mouse reviewers did a lot of work in the opposite directions for years.
I got the Scyrox V8 for $70 which is good value considering its under 40g and 8k polling with good web based software. I definitely do not recommend shelling out a ton of money just for 8k top brand mice.
@@lemon1x LMAO, i got you so mad i turned you into a stalker 🤣🤣 Difference is, i'm not a native speaker and i don't claim to be "better than a robot" like your sorry ahh did.
@@olisk-jy9rz $70 is really not very expensive compared to the main brands of mice. Mice are just getting more expensive in general. But you can get cheaper good mouse for about $40-50
@@olisk-jy9rz stalker is an absurd claim big bro, seeing that comment took a singular click. you are begging for scraps. all i did was make an observation of you being hypocritical. that is all 🤥🤥🤡
Yup 100%. I have a finalmouse ULX and I'm way more excited about their between polling technology (which is only available at 1000hrz polling) than the 8000 hrz. Anything over 1000 is just diminishing or even negative returns. Honestly I think even the between polling tech is not needed, I just thought it was neat and I like the theory behind the finalmouse business model (even if I don't like the execution).
@@hatty101 I'm going to guess that you're asking what the technology I'm talking about actually is. When the ULX is polling at 1000hrz, if you click the a button the mouse will ignore the polling rate and send a poll immediately. This gives the ULX one of the fastest click response times in the industry without being too harsh on battery or your CPU.
@@thewarmwind6171 my razer 8khz have the world fastest click response time afaik, it regersiter a click at 8000hz even if u set it to 1000hz from the app.
just drag your mouse pointer across a black screen and film it at 30 fps. There is a difference in how jittery the trajectory looks, which is a little bit important is FPS games Sure, by itself half a milisecond isn't much, but it can add up with other components. In a competitive envirorment every little bit counts. Plus you're not saving half a milisecond once, you save it on every individual microadjusment you make. As an avid aim trainers enjoyer i can definitely say there is a mesurable difference
This is what I've been saying since higher polling rates came out. Many people don't seem to understand just how fast 1ms is. The best way to tell if a higher polling rate is really making a difference is in a click reaction test. If you're consistently faster with 8k, sure, go for it. But you should only be less than a millisecond difference lol. If you're really looking to get smoother and more precise mouse inputs, raise your DPI a little and lower in game sens. That's raising the sensors' resolution, giving you finer control in game, actually a tangible difference that you can achieve on any mouse. I'm still loving how far gaming peripherals have come, especially wireless mice, but I'd never buy or recommend one on its polling rate.
As a controller player I can feel a difference of 4 ms of gpu render time on a 240hz monitor. I also don't feel any difference when I'm not warmed up. But I think I will never distenguish a difference of a fraction of a ms
I have 540hz monitor and playing 4k poolling rate when i forgot to turn the pooling rate to 4k i spot the difference in few seconds but between 4k to 8k i cant spot a thing. I think 4k is enough for now
2k/4k/8k polling rates are all gimmicks. These do not make you a "better" gamer, It the consistency with your current main mouse and in-game knowledge that make you better.
@@Seas0nedChef While that's fair enough, the jump in CPU load from 1k to 2k polling rate is negligible compared to 1k to 4k, which does demand a high end CPU. The amount of times you'll have 2k not run well but 1k do are pretty much the same as having 1k not run well but 500 do. I don't know enough to tell you why the diminishing returns nosedive so aggressively at 4k tbh.
The most important things of a mouse should be - 1. sensor consistency & accuracy 2. Shape 3. weight ( personal preference) 4. coating good 1000 hz is more than enough for a mouse. The shape and the weight affects a lot more than the polling rate.
What's your opinion of 4k polling? Is it enough of a middle ground that you benefit from some of the improved latency but not as much of the other negatives from 8k?
If you look at the video from MS, "Applied Sciences Group: High Performance Touch", it does a good job of showing why latency matters. If we can't see the difference in game, I think the question because what's going that it's not observable. Is there a bottle neck? Is the test flawed, and unable to show the difference? Something else? When people optimize their computer for 8k gaming. They try to reduce system latency in general. The thing is, those optimization also work for 1k gaming.
You're one of, if not THE most trustworthy guy in this regard. if you say 8000hz is not usable right now, or doesn't feel like it is the next step, i'm very inclined to believe you. But being optimistic... maybe upcoming games and hardware will be able to make better use of this technology. In cases like this, i like to think these stuff are just ahead of it's time. But let's see. Fingers crossed!
I have been sticking with 2K polling rate even though firmware updates came out for my mouse to support 4K and now 8K. At 2K I have no issues in games and battery life is great.
I would love to see someone make videos 3D printing and testing viewer submitted mouse shapes. Basically a mouse version of Major Hardware's Fan Showdown series.
I can tell the difference between 1k and 4k on a 360hz display. Now, I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other but I can tell a difference if I squeeze the mouse making my hand shake really fast which translates to a specific movement of the cursor. I've done this in a blind test where my brother changed the setting without me knowing. This is with a Superlight 2 with the 4k firmware. I would still be happy just using 1k but I can tell the difference.
So you have a test that can figure it out, would you know in game with regular use? And I'll give that test a try, what movement should be I looking for? Thanks!
@@RocketJumpNinja I can probably not see it ingame or during any practical use and my explanation is most likley not very useful or clear. But I simply found a perceivable difference in how the cursor appeared to move on the desktop while "flexing" my hand in a way that made the mouse and thus the cursor vibrate very fast. Doing this I could "feel" a difference between the two leading me to be able to guess correctly every time. Again tho, I think it needs to be stressed that this was me with my setup. If you sat me down at a random PC with a random mouse I might not be able to tell at all. As previously mentioned I'm using a 360hz monitor with normal overdrive and a superlight 2 @ 4k polling rate and 1600 dpi. 6/11 win sens with no accel. This is very much not scientifically whatsoever but I thought I was worth a mention. EDIT: This perceived difference might not be a reduction in noticable input delay or anything like that but rather just increased variance in the polling itself. As you probably already know we rarely reach the full 4k at 1600dpi since it requires us to move the mouse really really fast unless we multiply the sens inside whatever game we play. So what I perceive might be a reduction in consistency. A consistency found in 1k polling since we actually reach the 1k cap more often. Again, this is all speculation since I have not used any software capable to map this in any readable way.
@@kruger7796 When you say you can notice it while moving the cursor in desktop, did you disable the Windows' Enhance pointer precision? That setting actually enables mouse acceleration and is on by default on Windows. There are differences from 125Hz to 8KHz if there is mouse acceleration. However, using raw input (disable mouse acceleration) and I cannot notice any difference and I have a 240Hz monitor. Some games even disable mouse acceleration by default but some don't.
@@clarkclone Yes. As I mentioned in the edit I disable mouse accel and keep the speed at 6/11. I only tested 1k and 4k on a 360hz monitor. Again tho, it might not be a reduction in input lag or anything like that but merely the difference in the available polling span. It is a lot easier to cap out 1k hz at 1600dpi than it is to cap out 4k hz. There is a noticable difference but weather it is a positive or negative one is up for debate. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that 4k hz feels "better" than 1k hz. Just that it is a noticable difference.
@@RocketJumpNinja I see. Would be interesting to figure out what code exactly causes the issue (from a technical point of view). Is it affected by the _"in_mouse"_ cvar, by the way?
Idk if you know this but w11 runs alot better with high polling rate mice. The scheduler was not prioritizing the mouse at all in pre 23h2 w11 or still not in w10. That being said it def differs from mouse to mouse, 2k seems to be the sweet spot. I have yet to use a 8k wireless mouse that did not feel like crap with tons of dropped inputs, the only time i ever felt like it being better was the viper 8k on halo infinite. I could be wrong but i would imagine higher polling rate helping with accuracy with large and fast movements say only a low sens player or 50cm360 or more. I dont have the tools to test to see where it would be an issue and if it would ever be an issue.
I tried many times but I hate how it just feels slower. Anyway offtopic, did you try the Viper V3? what do you think of its shape? I like how they moved the scroller but I don't like how they made the mouse taller, just because of that I feel like aiming better with the V2 despite my hand lays more naturally on the V3
You can definitely tell the difference between 500hz and 1000 hz as the 1000hz is quite aggressive to response while the 500hz is a lot smoother, which makes it easier to track a static target while you are in motion So I did a test with 400 dpi and 8000hz (finalmouse) and the feel is both smooth and responsive. It's worth giving it a try =)
Superfluous or not, I want the machine running as fast and smooth as it can. It is often the case that a high specification, regardless of whether you use it to its potential, denotes superior quality standards. By all means purchase what you think will realistically provide value. I just want for the technology to progress towards more fluid inputs and faster rendering.
But as shown, you're more likely to get stutters, lower battery and other issues by pushing the equipment to that extent... this is one of those cases where less can be more overall. Gotta find the balance point for best performance in this case.
@RocketJumpNinja The squeaky wheel gets the grease. When an increased standard causes a different limit to be revealed, that just points to the next thing needing improvement. I know you are focused on there here and now, and I get that, but in the long term there is no reason we shouldn't progress the technology to its logical extreme. I currently don't experience those issues you describe. My FPS of choice is older as well, so I guess I am exceptionally lucky. If I do find myself having issues, I can always dial it back. I don't demand high polling rates, I would just rather have them where possible. It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. There is no need to criticize a 'top mouse,' as you term it, for being over provisioned. The price of what is perceived to be the best tool for the job will invariably be extortionate, and this isn't directly correlated to the amount of spend on its technological spec. It wasn't long ago that far worse products than what we have today demanded premium prices. I expect that any product that wishes to take the top place over the incumbent would have an easier time implementing at least an equivalent specification than it would campaigning for consumers to evolve their views on what is necessary. I say let them spend some of that premium they demand on making it objectively better.
@@Electric_Bill As long as they give us cheaper alternatives with the same shapes (and new ones), then sure! I'm not against tech moving forward, I just want the best mice possible... according to that balance I was talking about. The sensor upgrades for wireless to allow for long battery life have been great, but regular functionality was basically flawless even back with the 3360, so companies spending obscene amounts of money on developing new sensors is a waste of money that ends up being put on the consumer. If they want to keep pushing and funding that the money they get from the extreme mice they release, fair enough, but we gotta do something about these costs for a while, so that'll be the focus. Inflation is hitting, so how can we lower cost? One way is not pushing to these (I would deem unnecessary) tech improvements. Squeaky wheels get the grease, yup, so this is what's going to squeak for a while. Then we'll move onto the next squeak. Nothing I'm saying has to be forever, maybe 8k will be good some day, but it's just not needed yet so advertising it like it's a big advantage is just... yeah marketing.
The only thing I like about higher polling rates, is that I feel they'll encourage companies to make more efficient mice. That way I'll have to charge even less than I do now at 1k polling rate.
Great video as always. Now we need a video on keyboard. I admit I never tested a wooting but I've tested others that are responsive (drunkdeer I have two). And while I can see the difference in responsiveness, while playing CS2 I honestly don't see a difference. I can strafe/stop the same using both and mechanical. I don't use Snap Tap.
After I swapped my cpu to the new 9800x3d - I don’t know why but in cod bo6 my mouse is stuttering with the 8000 hz polling rate active … so I get back to 1000 hz because even at 2000 hz the mouse movement is very unstable
Optimum has already made a video with these tests, and there is literally no difference between 1k and 8k, only your battery going down the drain, your video was also excellent btw
People who say even 2k is an upgrade to 1k hz don't even know what hz even means. The difference is so insanely far beyond humanly recognizable, the neighbor's dog's wet farts are more relevant to your in games performance than your mouse having 8k hz polling rate.
Game feels slower to me when i use lower polling, i’ve had to switch mine a lot over the year because of fps issues, and every time i switched to higher polling rate i.e 250 polling to like 500 or 1000 my game felt super fast
Also can we work on shapes? I have a project to cut the gravastar m2 mouse the back of it the first hole and to sculpt it util it gets to 50-60 grams because it is 79-80 grams. Also the concave buttons are epic for people with small hands but better than that the perfect shape to make you feel like you are just using your hand and buttons to be like triggers.
i had the razer software reset my settings a few times, and i could always tell it after a while. it is VERY subtle, but it is there. and it does help me in the games i play (mostly mordhau). 60hz would be plenty for me too, but i very much prefer how everything in my system is snappy because that is a far better experience
Honestly, I was one of those people who thought that higher polling rate is naturally better. I didn't really understand what it actually is but this vid is really informative and easy to understand. Honestly a great watch. I'll stick to my 1khz mouse
The only point of having 8000hz+ polling rates is not to improve your reaction times, but to remove the mouse as a source of latency. Same reason for monitors and keyboards too.
What do you think of motion sync, and like you I've been playing quake live clan arena for over a decade, and the best thing is placebo for the smoothness that motion sync adds, but if I feel heavier movement when it is active, but I understand that only adds 1ms that should not be noticed.
i can definately feel the difference between 1k and 4k when making stupid fast flicks for clips or very very small and fast microadjustments but unless you're a brainrotted freak like me there's no reason to go over 1k hz on a mouse maybe 2k if you're concerned about it but generally unless you're a freak of nature or freakishly obsessed with how mice specs perform then 2k is max you should go for
Shape is king, but you don't mention the weight. Atm, people seem to be far more focused on low weight than even shape, sensor, or software. Weight => shape > polling > clicks. From my experience this
Yes, testing like this needed to be done so we understand that marketing gimmick is still just but a marketing gimmick. Why don't mouse factory just focus on how the better material, better shape instead of all those gimmick that we can't tell the different.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
you just wanted an excuse to show us that sick lightning footage
Worth it
LMAO
Totally worth it. Almost made my day
Ngl, was my favourite part of the video. And to make it even better, while I was editing this last night, we had a crazy thunderstorm, so while replaying this clip flashing on my screen, I was watching the lightning flash through my window too.
(I use UPS so don't worry, computer was safe from the storm, no power outages anyway)
Where's my Lifeline movement video Mokey?
A buddy picked up an 8k mouse couldn't stop talking about how amazing it felt, how it improved his game etc etc. I was over about 4 months ago and set it to 1k. Was over again a couple weeks ago and it was still 1k. I asked him how he was liking the mouse, he started going on and on again. I told him to check his polling rate and told him it was all in his head. He was pissed, not at me, but at spending that much money and it all being in his head.
An actual blind test... where you don't even know you're being tested.
@@RocketJumpNinja my buddy did the same thing to me but I noticed from 2k to 1k but by very little but I was 100 percent right out of 20 tests.. i was aware of the 19 other tests tho so maybe some luck. Either way I have many 8k mice and will probably never use 8k over just 2k
@@RocketJumpNinja I feel the difference in smoothness and responsiveness right away if I change the setting from 8 kHz to 1 kHz while playing CS2, and my flicks in quick situations aren't as accurate with 1 kHz because I've gotten used to the 8 kHz setting. In general, higher polling rate kind of makes it feel like the mouse has more DPI without changing the actual tracking speed, but you definitely can feel the difference in smoothness and flicks if you suddenly change from 8 kHz to 1 kHz.
also depending on the mouse, "8k" isnt 8k. its probably 3.5k-5.5k. i have three "8k" mice and none of them do actual 8k
@@Raven.tech614 What dpi do you use?
I can feel the difference easily, the difference in how long the mouse works on battery :D
Most people ignore that monitor and ping matter way more than polling rate
So true, ping is probably the most neglected aspect ever imo next to mousepad choice
Definitely true. I always recommend to people to save up for an OLED because it's the device that's gonna make the most difference by far apart from maybe a better PC.
absolutely! theres so much missinformation out there concerning Hz and net settings!
People want to change what they can change with minimal efforts.
Ping difference can't be easily changed, and monitor requires more fps to see the effects which leads to upgrade, thus more effort.
@@NickSharpxmousepad is huge. Can completely transform the experience
Great video man! I will preach this message til I’m in the ground. No human person can detect .12ms of latency.
Thanks champ! Yeah I would love if a channel did genuine blind tests with someone who truly believed they could tell the difference... they'd have to be super human or very lucky to get it right consistently, surely.
amen brother
It's hard to notice, but you do notice them in VR whey playing something super fast paced like Beat Saber on Expert and Expert+ levels. But it just the accuracy gets worse and more mistakes. E.g Display Port delay (let's call it real time (it's around 15-20ms) vs compressed through Oculus Link or similar that adds 35-60ms of latency on top for compression decompression etc., and you miss so much more blocks.
So, yeah, when latency adds up you feel it :)
@@RocketJumpNinja you can take a look at Latency Split Test: Find Your Lag Threshold made by Aperture Grille. People have done that, and we are multiple people who have been able to get 10-12 correct at around 4-5ms
@@RocketJumpNinja by this logic u shouldnt be able to feel the difference of 500hz and 1000hz, since its only a 1ms difference
8000hz is old now, i pref 30 000hz or 40 500hz imagine using a mouse with 8k in 2024
My mouse runs on depleted uranium, slaying noobs really is better at gamma ray frequency polling rate. Downside: I've started to develop some weird skin condition, not sure why....
@@henrikw377maybe you will grow some additional fingers. We could need those for all those hotkeys in modern games. 😂
Imagine how long battery would last if mice could do 40khz
@@jesukxd8494 bro i got 5 minutes of battery life but its so smooth i promise
Make sure you use at least 20k DPI to take full advantage of your 40kHz polling!
Disabling CPU C-States on almost any system will allow 2khz and higher to work in pretty much every game. Higher polling rates will still raise your overall CPU usage, but disabling C-States will allow the interrupts to be processed properly.
4khz and higher does feel a bit smoother, personally, but it's very inconsequential. When games start running at 1000fps and 1000hz monitors are the norm, then sure, 8khz polling will be "better".
even running at 1000fps and with 1000hz monitors, your movements and reactions aren't ever going to necessitate 8khz of updates from the mouse, and you wouldn't be able to perceive the difference in movements anyway.
for humans there will never be any benefit to a polling rate that high.
Disabling C-States wont improve anything about polling rate.
You can run high polling rate even with C-States.
@@AquilaeYT This is verifiably untrue. Older platforms especially benefit from this. My 9900k with C-States enabled gets the same issues RJN has in this video. Disabling C-States solves it. It's literally the cores being put into lower power states dynamically by C-States that causes the USB interrupts to not be processed properly on many platforms. Some of the newer, better CPUs are more efficient at this natively, true, but even they can still benefit from having it disabled.
@@ArrythmiaFPS Think what you want but it is simply how it is.
There is strictly no direct related issues between high polling rate and C-States setting, this may due to your specific configuration.
I don't know about your old specific configuration but C-States won't directly interfere with USB in newer platform and don't restrict the amount of data and the rate of it, there is no difference at all, you can doubt as you want but keep in mind that all motherboard are don't optimized the same as others.
In your case, that's just subjective.
@ArrythmiaFPS Do you have some documentation or proof(s) or this is just gist and speculation? I want to believe and test it myself, but it would be a waste of time if it really doesn't make a difference.
been telling people that the fps youre losing from running 4k/8k is going to offset the latency gain from higher polling.
its entirely unneeded
How would that case frame loss?
@@Raumance increased cpu usage by the kernel
I'm on a wired mouse anyway and my PC is good enough to handle it. Only 8k causes some problems in older games but that's about it. On wireless I only ever use 2k or 4k. I would never buy a dongle just for that though. If it's included, cool, otherwise don't bother.
@@jR0xas I have a pretty decent PC (7900x with a 3080) and I honestly cannot notice any difference when switching between the different polling rates on my mouse.
Dude, what kind of potato are you running where swapping to 8k polling "loses you frames"? Thats an absurdist angle
Ive had the same thoughts for ages. Its just not meaningful enough to use 8k. Cool to see tech pushed further but other aspect of a gaming mouse are far more meaningful. And also your time training/improving
Yeah for sure. So what's a good way for marketers to promote mice without fancy pointless numbers? Maybe if we can give them an alternative they can start focusing on things that actually matter...
Polling rate is about accuracy of movement data effectively. Your mouse is a small camera and DPI is the resolution of that camera. It's more sensitive because as you increase that resolution it will detect much smaller movements and translate that to input because it has a greater resolution (dots/units) in the photos it takes. Higher DPI does not add speed or acceleration, it's simply that lower dpi does not capture as much movement at the lower resolution. The DSP is the processor that compares movement from let's say position X to position Y from pictures taken 59μs (microseconds) apart. Now after that calculation has been performed your mouse will update your PC via usb every 1ms. Relative to the speed of the sensor, it's somewhat slow.
However take 8000Hz which is updating effectively every 125μs (microseconds) we are now able to update the PC based on the movement taken from our tiny camera much closer to a 1:1 ratio. What does this mean in practice? Greater accuracy in movement. The mouse is communicating a more accurate picture of how you got from position X to position Y to the PC. At 1000Hz or 1000μs or 1ms (microseconds) we are still being told we have moved from position X to position Y because the algorithm is still accurately working that out, but with 8000Hz we are getting more movement data along the way. In terms of latecy, you're gaining 875μs (microseconds) so that is basically imperceptible. What you are gaining is accuracy of movement. You have more data points along the line from point X to point Y which will result in something like this (exaggerated) imgur.com/a/6JR43qy
The point here I guess is that at a gaming computing level 1ms is a very long time. Your game frames are ideally generated probably in 3-4ms time period but that is end to end system frames. Your mouse camera (sensor) is capable of taking pictures FAR faster than what the mouse processor currently can keep up with, so the logical thing to do is to have the mouse processor operate faster to keep up with the sensor. In theory, your game engine (assuming it's not locked to updating the input position every 1ms) can get a more accurate input of where you moved your mouse to get from point X to point Y. It's important to understand that ultimately if you move from point X to point Y, you will always end up at point Y because the algorithm itself will be accurate. The question is do the data points in between matter that much? Looking at various scenarios, small movements? Probably not. Big flicks? In some very exceptional edge cases, maybe. But most likely probably not.
The test you do at 2:15 I wouldn't necessarily expect to see "better" drawings of those shapes. I'd potentially expect worse because you are getting finer movements that you wouldn't have seen before. So any tiny imperfections in the movement will now translate into data. It's really hard to see where the benefits of 8k data will be except on paper, but assuming in the future we will get end to end system latency into sub 1ms time then it possibly will have benefits there.
All this useless wall of text just to conclude "it's possible in the future it might be useful". And it's pure speculation too, because literally nothing you said confutates anything said in video. ChatGTP ahh comment.
@@olisk-jy9rz :(
I liked your comment even tho I didn't read it
aint no one reading allat
thank you for this knowledge random commenter
Thank you for confirming what I always thought was the case but never knew how to reliably check.
Man, I love you! This video perfectly explains why I always follow your advice about mice. I bought the Zowie FK2 based on your recommendation and used it for 7 years without a single worry. Now, here we are again discussing this topic. While all the tech channels are saying to upgrade your PC and set the DPI high to achieve that near-8kHz polling rate, your video makes it crystal clear that it’s just not worth it. Thank you so much!
You will never find a single person that claims to feel the difference record themselves doing a blind test. Has never and will never happen.
i did a blind test on stream, you didnt come to watch
@@vladgaedel8521 i'm in on your street and you denied me entry as an impartial witness!
@@BOZ_11 sry i couldnt hear the knock, was busy testing pollrates
@@vladgaedel8521
We saw it dude why you think your mail keeps going missing?
There is actually someone who did record a blind test themselves using a python script setting the polling rate to a random number. He could consistently tell the difference by moving the cursor in circles in desktop, between 1000, 2000 and 4000 Hz. Still, it's really a stretch.
EDIT: here it is ruclips.net/video/s5ukK3krGp4/видео.html
3:40 Visually yes, but that's why people talk about smoothness and how it's supposed to feel different. It's the same about screens : there was people who used to say that you shouldn't care too much about a screen's response time « because you can't see the difference unless you are a superhuman », but you can feel it. The response time of the screen affects stuff like ghosting, artifacts or overall latency feel. That's why when I watch someone playing on a 144hz, it feels so fluid, even more than mine. Then I had someone play on my own screen ... and it felt more smooth than usual : that's because I'm not playing, even tho when playing I can feel the difference between 120 and 144 fps.
After some testing myself in OW2, just switching between 1K and 2K I could notice when I forgot I was using 1K because it would feel just a tiny bit different.
I haven't tried a complete blind test, but just like it feels more sluggish when I use 500hz, it's just a tiny bit faster when using 2K. I could go 4K but I don't want the battery to drain too fast and 8K ... I'm not even sure it's properly implemented anyway so why bother
It's not a gimmick but it's clearly not a need. You're gaining so little there's just no use for most people. Stick to whatever honestly, but don't pick an 8K mouse because it's 8K lol, that's stupid. Refresh rate should be the last thing you think about when picking a mouse, everything is at least 1K, which is already enough. Shape is much more important, build quality, clicks and buttons, sensor, software and features ... are also more important
360hz monitor made a WAY bigger difference for me than 2k or 4k polling. I stick to 1K now for the most part, sometimes 2k.
Same
my preferred mouse of choice (the original Model O) doesn’t even offer past 1k polling so i’ll stick to 1k cus i love the model o shape and buttons
2k is the sweet spot
I have the Razer Deathadder V3. I can confirm 1000Hz works better in most games, not to say 8000hz causes massive nano-stutter.
feels buggy even at 2000hz too
@@bulletlotteryi agree, it feels really like shaky and the speed just didn’t feel right when i tested a mouse on 8k
I actually don’t like the mouse I wish I had gotten super light g pro 2 dex.
My deathadder feels fine in 8k
I didn’t notice any improvement in latency at 2K or 4k, but I do believe I noticed an improvement in motion smoothness/jitter. When a frame is drawn and displayed every 6.9ms (144Hz) or 4.2ms (240Hz) it probably does make a difference if the delay between polling the mouse and rendering of the frame can vary by up to 1ms. Makes sense to me.
Still sent the mouse back because the shape was uncomfortable and the software was chinesium unsigned drivers.
Could not agree more. I've been sharing the same thoughts for a while now. 2-8k is absolutely bs marketing. They need to sell us a new number because nobody gives a shit about DPI anymore.
I feel like I can barely discern the difference between 1k and 2k polling when I am specifically using them back to back, and looking for the differences in smoothness. The difference that I think I can discern is so minor that I still run 1k though. It's not worth my concern, so I'll take the extra battery life.
I once though I had my mouse at 4k and was playing really well, I went into g hub to change my dpi and I realized it was on 1k the entire time💀
I switched to 500Hz after the release of Modern Warfare 2019. For some reason, the mouse movement felt kind of weird at 1000Hz. And then I found two solutions: either disable the Filmic T2x anti-aliasing and play with horrible pixel shadows, or just lower the mouse polling rate to 500Hz. I chose the second option.
I have a 280Hz monitor, and honestly, the only noticeable difference between 1K and 4K polling rates is a slight improvement in cursor consistency when moving it around in Windows. That’s really it. In games, most are optimized to track your mouse smoothly at 1K polling, so unless you’re using a 4000Hz monitor, I doubt anyone could actually feel a difference beyond a placebo effect. In reality, 4K polling mostly brings the drawbacks mentioned in this video, without offering any meaningful advantages. Same for 8k obviously.
I would love to see LTT make a blind test like they did with monitor refresh rates a few years back. grab a couple of pros and some casuals and see if any of them can actually tell the difference between 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 and 8000hz. my assumption would be that linus and some of the LTT staff would maybe be able to tell the difference between 500 and 1000 and that pros could maybe feel the difference between 1000 and anything higher, but could not accurately identify differences between 2000, 4000 and 8000 in a blind scenario
No test is required. The difference between 60-500hz monitors can be filmed and you will see the difference in slo-mo. But the difference between 1000-8000hz in mice is so small that it would be too hard to film. And it would be impossible to feel
Heck, I want to see if they can feel the difference between 125 and 1000
@@mugiwara.eugene its not about filmed but if it can be feeled...
@@jprice_ that difference is definitely something you can feel but 500 vs 1000 should be nearly impossible to feel a difference. Everything over 1k is nothing more than a marketingjoke and no one will ever feel any difference.
@@iPain3G you can definitely feel the jump from 500 to 1000 lol. Especially in things where fluid motion happens over long periods (bhopping/surfing on counterstrike for example).
Over 1k; theres really no difference. Its like jumping from 60hz to 144hz. This is a MASSIVE difference; but above 144hz, and the proportionality of gain becomes less and less.
All about shape, weight, and build quality for me!
Nice video! you saved me money bro! You have officially became one of the best!
i use a deathadder v3 pro i feel 4sure the 8k hz, use 800 dpi, just do a 180, you will see the diff.
if i try to use 4k hz i cant even turn arround the sameway, so the sensivity changes thats a fact. i use .89 sens, with 8k i can react just fine with enimies flanking, but with 4k the sensivity it comes short, for what i used 8k for my advantage is using a lower sens with a higher capacity to react and reach the flanks
I'll be honest with you I feel like I can notice 8k when i switch to it but one time i turned it down to 1k to play a story game and forgot to turn it back up and only realised after i finished a ranked game lol
I use 2k polling to sync up with my 0.5ms timer resolution. Anything higher and it just causes performance issues for me
blurbusters did a good write up on why it is needed on high refresh rate monitors.
nice video, I would have like a small test on 2k polling, but I also think that is a marketing thing
I would say 2k Hz is a good sweet spot to be honest, it just makes sense. If there's an argument to be made against 2k vs 1k, we can also do the same for 1k vs 500 Hz. I don't think many people (if any) will consistently be able to tell the difference between 500hz and 1k Hz, but it's logical to conclude it is slightly better and can give slight performance gains just like 2k vs 1k, even though the gains will for sure be diminished.
there's visible difference between 500hz and 1000hz, just watch optimumtech's video on polling rate. anything over 1khz is overkill and doesn't actually yield better results that are even remotely noticeable
Sometimes it's not about seeing the difference side by side but trusting the data that proves there's a latency advantage.
wdym?
? he spoke about this in the video, You reaction time is more than 150ms, 8k deacrease lag by 0.8ms, you have more chance to win lottery than for this diff to make you win ONE INTERACTION in game
@@Low-Eek it would make you win any interaction where there'd be two players shooting each other at the same time. The one with the faster mouse would win.
@@axiriac I mean just because trying to notice 1khz vs 2khz+ is very difficult doesn't mean you don't benefit. It's still runs faster regardless of your perception.
There's an input delay every time the mouse is in complete still position to a full motion. Once in motion it 1 ms at 1000hz and no one will feel the difference after it's 'in the motion' but that sudden start is what could be the measured case at high DPI low sense scenario.
I'd be super interested to know how polling rates and hall effect is improving keyboard technology and quality in general, if that's something youre interested in.
There are also some fixes that helped make 8khz stable for me In your motherboard bios enable/disable these settings
Disable c states
Disable cppc
Disable cppc preferred cores
L1 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled
-L2 Stream HW Prefetcher - Enabled
These settings made 8khz stable for me
you disabled cpu cores to get 8K polling to work???????? Did i understand that right?
@ Wydm, it’s not disable cores it’s just running your cpu at full bore, all cores are still functional
@ it might increase temperatures possibly but it made 8khz stable along with the other fixes
And why would you go through that hassle for a useless feature like 2/4/8k anyways?
@@NoName-st6zc Some people like to believe it's not placebo, while it is. That's the only reason to use it. It 'feels' better, but it is 99% the same.
Thumbs up for trying to keep people grounded in reality.
Gaming mouse subreddit along with modern mouse reviewers did a lot of work in the opposite directions for years.
Just saw a Pulsar X2H and 8K Hz Polling Rate adaptor for $40 so this video couldn't have come at a more perfect time
EVGA X17's have dual lift off sensors (this IS nice), table tuning (also VERY nice) AND an 8k pixart sensor... for 17-20 bucks on amazon.
currently 15 dollars actually lol. Its a very nice mouse
“maybe your superhuman and better than robots-“ i am, actually
I'm pretty sure a robot would've used the correct form of "your"
@@Metacor. he's not saying hes a robot..
@@nexwga if hes better than robots he should be able to do it as well
Well you should download some grammar program then, you need it.
I got the Scyrox V8 for $70 which is good value considering its under 40g and 8k polling with good web based software. I definitely do not recommend shelling out a ton of money just for 8k top brand mice.
70$ IS a ton of moneys for a mouse.
@olisk-jy9rz “Well you should download some grammar program then, you need it.” dawg you cant spell either😭😭 “moneys” 🏴☠️💀
@@lemon1x LMAO, i got you so mad i turned you into a stalker 🤣🤣 Difference is, i'm not a native speaker and i don't claim to be "better than a robot" like your sorry ahh did.
@@olisk-jy9rz $70 is really not very expensive compared to the main brands of mice. Mice are just getting more expensive in general. But you can get cheaper good mouse for about $40-50
@@olisk-jy9rz stalker is an absurd claim big bro, seeing that comment took a singular click. you are begging for scraps. all i did was make an observation of you being hypocritical. that is all 🤥🤥🤡
Great work! Could You share ur ql cfg ? Thanks
Yup 100%. I have a finalmouse ULX and I'm way more excited about their between polling technology (which is only available at 1000hrz polling) than the 8000 hrz. Anything over 1000 is just diminishing or even negative returns. Honestly I think even the between polling tech is not needed, I just thought it was neat and I like the theory behind the finalmouse business model (even if I don't like the execution).
whats behind tech?
@@hatty101 I'm going to guess that you're asking what the technology I'm talking about actually is. When the ULX is polling at 1000hrz, if you click the a button the mouse will ignore the polling rate and send a poll immediately.
This gives the ULX one of the fastest click response times in the industry without being too harsh on battery or your CPU.
@@thewarmwind6171 my razer 8khz have the world fastest click response time afaik, it regersiter a click at 8000hz even if u set it to 1000hz from the app.
I am on 130hz 800 dpi. Is this good?
just drag your mouse pointer across a black screen and film it at 30 fps. There is a difference in how jittery the trajectory looks, which is a little bit important is FPS games
Sure, by itself half a milisecond isn't much, but it can add up with other components. In a competitive envirorment every little bit counts. Plus you're not saving half a milisecond once, you save it on every individual microadjusment you make. As an avid aim trainers enjoyer i can definitely say there is a mesurable difference
unless you're pro player top 0.00001% that makes a difference
This is what I've been saying since higher polling rates came out. Many people don't seem to understand just how fast 1ms is. The best way to tell if a higher polling rate is really making a difference is in a click reaction test. If you're consistently faster with 8k, sure, go for it. But you should only be less than a millisecond difference lol. If you're really looking to get smoother and more precise mouse inputs, raise your DPI a little and lower in game sens. That's raising the sensors' resolution, giving you finer control in game, actually a tangible difference that you can achieve on any mouse. I'm still loving how far gaming peripherals have come, especially wireless mice, but I'd never buy or recommend one on its polling rate.
As a controller player I can feel a difference of 4 ms of gpu render time on a 240hz monitor.
I also don't feel any difference when I'm not warmed up.
But I think I will never distenguish a difference of a fraction of a ms
1:45 do you have the same test to tell the difference between 500Hz and 1000Hz?
I have 540hz monitor and playing 4k poolling rate when i forgot to turn the pooling rate to 4k i spot the difference in few seconds but between 4k to 8k i cant spot a thing. I think 4k is enough for now
what games do you play? what mouse do you have?
@@pixelgaming8632 cs2, call of duty Razer Viper V3 Pro
2k/4k/8k polling rates are all gimmicks. These do not make you a "better" gamer, It the consistency with your current main mouse and in-game knowledge that make you better.
2k Is genuinely viable, with Logitech having the best implementation by a landslide.
@@hxpelives you still need a machine capable of allowing you to game at 2khz
@@Seas0nedChef While that's fair enough, the jump in CPU load from 1k to 2k polling rate is negligible compared to 1k to 4k, which does demand a high end CPU. The amount of times you'll have 2k not run well but 1k do are pretty much the same as having 1k not run well but 500 do.
I don't know enough to tell you why the diminishing returns nosedive so aggressively at 4k tbh.
2K is valid and you can feel the difference on a high refresh rate monitor
@@KarmaOTS I wish that was the case for me. I am still on 1080p 60hz
Are the keyboard polling the same?
Because many chinese oem are advertising the 8K polling even 32K polling too
When you increase the polling rate, do you also need to change the sensitivity? I think it feels different and I always have to increase sens.
That lightning example was pretty damn good.
The most important things of a mouse should be -
1. sensor consistency & accuracy
2. Shape
3. weight ( personal preference)
4. coating
good 1000 hz is more than enough for a mouse. The shape and the weight affects a lot more than the polling rate.
what is more important, shape or weight?
What's your opinion of 4k polling? Is it enough of a middle ground that you benefit from some of the improved latency but not as much of the other negatives from 8k?
If you look at the video from MS, "Applied Sciences Group: High Performance Touch", it does a good job of showing why latency matters. If we can't see the difference in game, I think the question because what's going that it's not observable. Is there a bottle neck? Is the test flawed, and unable to show the difference? Something else?
When people optimize their computer for 8k gaming. They try to reduce system latency in general. The thing is, those optimization also work for 1k gaming.
You're one of, if not THE most trustworthy guy in this regard. if you say 8000hz is not usable right now, or doesn't feel like it is the next step, i'm very inclined to believe you.
But being optimistic... maybe upcoming games and hardware will be able to make better use of this technology. In cases like this, i like to think these stuff are just ahead of it's time.
But let's see. Fingers crossed!
I have been sticking with 2K polling rate even though firmware updates came out for my mouse to support 4K and now 8K. At 2K I have no issues in games and battery life is great.
should i use 8000hz on wired mouse? i use xm2 8k
I would love to see someone make videos 3D printing and testing viewer submitted mouse shapes. Basically a mouse version of Major Hardware's Fan Showdown series.
I can tell the difference between 1k and 4k on a 360hz display. Now, I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other but I can tell a difference if I squeeze the mouse making my hand shake really fast which translates to a specific movement of the cursor. I've done this in a blind test where my brother changed the setting without me knowing. This is with a Superlight 2 with the 4k firmware. I would still be happy just using 1k but I can tell the difference.
So you have a test that can figure it out, would you know in game with regular use? And I'll give that test a try, what movement should be I looking for? Thanks!
@@RocketJumpNinja I can probably not see it ingame or during any practical use and my explanation is most likley not very useful or clear. But I simply found a perceivable difference in how the cursor appeared to move on the desktop while "flexing" my hand in a way that made the mouse and thus the cursor vibrate very fast. Doing this I could "feel" a difference between the two leading me to be able to guess correctly every time.
Again tho, I think it needs to be stressed that this was me with my setup. If you sat me down at a random PC with a random mouse I might not be able to tell at all. As previously mentioned I'm using a 360hz monitor with normal overdrive and a superlight 2 @ 4k polling rate and 1600 dpi. 6/11 win sens with no accel.
This is very much not scientifically whatsoever but I thought I was worth a mention.
EDIT: This perceived difference might not be a reduction in noticable input delay or anything like that but rather just increased variance in the polling itself. As you probably already know we rarely reach the full 4k at 1600dpi since it requires us to move the mouse really really fast unless we multiply the sens inside whatever game we play. So what I perceive might be a reduction in consistency. A consistency found in 1k polling since we actually reach the 1k cap more often. Again, this is all speculation since I have not used any software capable to map this in any readable way.
@@kruger7796 When you say you can notice it while moving the cursor in desktop, did you disable the Windows' Enhance pointer precision? That setting actually enables mouse acceleration and is on by default on Windows. There are differences from 125Hz to 8KHz if there is mouse acceleration. However, using raw input (disable mouse acceleration) and I cannot notice any difference and I have a 240Hz monitor. Some games even disable mouse acceleration by default but some don't.
@@clarkclone Yes. As I mentioned in the edit I disable mouse accel and keep the speed at 6/11. I only tested 1k and 4k on a 360hz monitor. Again tho, it might not be a reduction in input lag or anything like that but merely the difference in the available polling span. It is a lot easier to cap out 1k hz at 1600dpi than it is to cap out 4k hz.
There is a noticable difference but weather it is a positive or negative one is up for debate. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that 4k hz feels "better" than 1k hz. Just that it is a noticable difference.
Where do you play quake 3?
Does it have the same issues on 2000Hz in QL? I don't have anything to test it with, but wonder where exactly do these problems start.
2000hz seems ok, but I don't really want to risk it so I stick with 1000hz.
@@RocketJumpNinja I see. Would be interesting to figure out what code exactly causes the issue (from a technical point of view).
Is it affected by the _"in_mouse"_ cvar, by the way?
@@el_daro I use 8000hz in ql and have no issues whatsoever
I use 4k in quake live and have zero issues. I can't use 8k tho without severe frame drops.
i think the high dpi advert atleast imo shows the sensor is good and sensitive , the high dpi is just product of the good sensor
what are your thoughts on motion sync?
Idk if you know this but w11 runs alot better with high polling rate mice. The scheduler was not prioritizing the mouse at all in pre 23h2 w11 or still not in w10. That being said it def differs from mouse to mouse, 2k seems to be the sweet spot. I have yet to use a 8k wireless mouse that did not feel like crap with tons of dropped inputs, the only time i ever felt like it being better was the viper 8k on halo infinite. I could be wrong but i would imagine higher polling rate helping with accuracy with large and fast movements say only a low sens player or 50cm360 or more. I dont have the tools to test to see where it would be an issue and if it would ever be an issue.
I tried many times but I hate how it just feels slower. Anyway offtopic, did you try the Viper V3? what do you think of its shape? I like how they moved the scroller but I don't like how they made the mouse taller, just because of that I feel like aiming better with the V2 despite my hand lays more naturally on the V3
You can definitely tell the difference between 500hz and 1000 hz as the 1000hz is quite aggressive to response while the 500hz is a lot smoother, which makes it easier to track a static target while you are in motion
So I did a test with 400 dpi and 8000hz (finalmouse) and the feel is both smooth and responsive. It's worth giving it a try =)
Superfluous or not, I want the machine running as fast and smooth as it can. It is often the case that a high specification, regardless of whether you use it to its potential, denotes superior quality standards. By all means purchase what you think will realistically provide value. I just want for the technology to progress towards more fluid inputs and faster rendering.
But as shown, you're more likely to get stutters, lower battery and other issues by pushing the equipment to that extent... this is one of those cases where less can be more overall. Gotta find the balance point for best performance in this case.
@RocketJumpNinja The squeaky wheel gets the grease. When an increased standard causes a different limit to be revealed, that just points to the next thing needing improvement. I know you are focused on there here and now, and I get that, but in the long term there is no reason we shouldn't progress the technology to its logical extreme.
I currently don't experience those issues you describe. My FPS of choice is older as well, so I guess I am exceptionally lucky. If I do find myself having issues, I can always dial it back. I don't demand high polling rates, I would just rather have them where possible.
It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. There is no need to criticize a 'top mouse,' as you term it, for being over provisioned. The price of what is perceived to be the best tool for the job will invariably be extortionate, and this isn't directly correlated to the amount of spend on its technological spec. It wasn't long ago that far worse products than what we have today demanded premium prices. I expect that any product that wishes to take the top place over the incumbent would have an easier time implementing at least an equivalent specification than it would campaigning for consumers to evolve their views on what is necessary. I say let them spend some of that premium they demand on making it objectively better.
@@Electric_Bill As long as they give us cheaper alternatives with the same shapes (and new ones), then sure! I'm not against tech moving forward, I just want the best mice possible... according to that balance I was talking about. The sensor upgrades for wireless to allow for long battery life have been great, but regular functionality was basically flawless even back with the 3360, so companies spending obscene amounts of money on developing new sensors is a waste of money that ends up being put on the consumer. If they want to keep pushing and funding that the money they get from the extreme mice they release, fair enough, but we gotta do something about these costs for a while, so that'll be the focus. Inflation is hitting, so how can we lower cost? One way is not pushing to these (I would deem unnecessary) tech improvements. Squeaky wheels get the grease, yup, so this is what's going to squeak for a while. Then we'll move onto the next squeak. Nothing I'm saying has to be forever, maybe 8k will be good some day, but it's just not needed yet so advertising it like it's a big advantage is just... yeah marketing.
The only thing I like about higher polling rates, is that I feel they'll encourage companies to make more efficient mice. That way I'll have to charge even less than I do now at 1k polling rate.
Great video as always. Now we need a video on keyboard. I admit I never tested a wooting but I've tested others that are responsive (drunkdeer I have two). And while I can see the difference in responsiveness, while playing CS2 I honestly don't see a difference. I can strafe/stop the same using both and mechanical. I don't use Snap Tap.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on Motion Sync
How do you use 3200 dpi without having insane high sens in game??
What about pooling rate on keyboards?
After I swapped my cpu to the new 9800x3d - I don’t know why but in cod bo6 my mouse is stuttering with the 8000 hz polling rate active … so I get back to 1000 hz because even at 2000 hz the mouse movement is very unstable
Optimum has already made a video with these tests, and there is literally no difference between 1k and 8k, only your battery going down the drain, your video was also excellent btw
People who say even 2k is an upgrade to 1k hz don't even know what hz even means. The difference is so insanely far beyond humanly recognizable, the neighbor's dog's wet farts are more relevant to your in games performance than your mouse having 8k hz polling rate.
@@amberow9892 100%
What do you think of the endgame op1 8k? Considering it’s wired do you think that changes anything other than battery life?
Game feels slower to me when i use lower polling, i’ve had to switch mine a lot over the year because of fps issues, and every time i switched to higher polling rate i.e 250 polling to like 500 or 1000 my game felt super fast
Also can we work on shapes? I have a project to cut the gravastar m2 mouse the back of it the first hole and to sculpt it util it gets to 50-60 grams because it is 79-80 grams. Also the concave buttons are epic for people with small hands but better than that the perfect shape to make you feel like you are just using your hand and buttons to be like triggers.
i had the razer software reset my settings a few times, and i could always tell it after a while. it is VERY subtle, but it is there. and it does help me in the games i play (mostly mordhau).
60hz would be plenty for me too, but i very much prefer how everything in my system is snappy because that is a far better experience
This is still so much more diplomatic of a way to put it than boardzy would’ve lol 😆
Honestly, I was one of those people who thought that higher polling rate is naturally better. I didn't really understand what it actually is but this vid is really informative and easy to understand. Honestly a great watch. I'll stick to my 1khz mouse
1Hz?
One update per second seems quite dang low... XD
@@TarenGarond Fixed! haha you're right
@@SalTeeVee For some twisted reason I now want to try Quake Live with 1 Hz polling rate...
That's how the marketing gets you, "big number go up always good" XD
Thanks for this video, Zy.
Is under 1000Hz actually better than 1000? Is there any testing on that?
is the mz1 going to be updated?
The only point of having 8000hz+ polling rates is not to improve your reaction times, but to remove the mouse as a source of latency. Same reason for monitors and keyboards too.
Waht its better to play 1000 Hz or 2000 Hz?
What do you think of motion sync, and like you I've been playing quake live clan arena for over a decade, and the best thing is placebo for the smoothness that motion sync adds, but if I feel heavier movement when it is active, but I understand that only adds 1ms that should not be noticed.
i can definately feel the difference between 1k and 4k when making stupid fast flicks for clips or very very small and fast microadjustments but unless you're a brainrotted freak like me there's no reason to go over 1k hz on a mouse maybe 2k if you're concerned about it but generally unless you're a freak of nature or freakishly obsessed with how mice specs perform then 2k is max you should go for
Idk about mice but when i switched my kb from 8khz to 1khz makes it feel slower (probably because im used to 8000)
Shape is king, but you don't mention the weight. Atm, people seem to be far more focused on low weight than even shape, sensor, or software. Weight => shape > polling > clicks. From my experience this
I can feel slight differences between 1k-2k, 2k to 4k I can’t really tell.
Agree to everything, such a good video with excellent points!
2:22
With that logic, you only need 8Hz polling rate? Would like to see game footage of someone trying...
Or did I get baited?
honesty is doesn't matter what type of hardware you have is important knowledge and skills
Nah lol; if I put shroud on a trackball mouse and a cheap keyboard; hes not going to play very well.
Will there be a lighter weight version of the MZ1? I’d love to get one, but I’m used to like 30-40 gram mice at this point
What if I want to move my mouse in a 4KHz sine wave? Smh, these people don't even know about nyquist theorom.
Yes, testing like this needed to be done so we understand that marketing gimmick is still just but a marketing gimmick. Why don't mouse factory just focus on how the better material, better shape instead of all those gimmick that we can't tell the different.
how about wired 8k like in OP1 ?
so this is the same like rapid trigger keyboard? that has a faster input *0.001
I feel most light weight mouse, tends to have some weak spots, we need better quality control and overall rigid construction
can you review the Endgame Gear OP18K