TYR Vs ODIN - Who was the Main Germanic God?
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- Опубликовано: 30 мар 2019
- Týr or Óðinn? Who was the "main" deity of the Germanic peoples?
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#Tyr #Odin #Norsemythology
To me, Tyr was most likely the primary God, especially in the Germanic mainland.
Odin (probably a divine priest figure) clearly became more and more prominent among the elites of the society, and thus the story regarding Tyr’s hand being bitten off was made to explain why Odin was now the king of the Gods. In Irish mythology the king of the Thua De Dannan (I butchered that) lost his arm and thus lost his right to rule.
That’s my opinion, I’m willing to listen to solid evidence that disproves this.
You have a good point there concerning the Tuatha Dé Danann and losing the right to rule. Although I must say that Tyr is simply "The God/The Lord", he is exactly the same deity of all the other exampels I gave you. He is the representation of an Indo-European sky deity, chieftain/ruler/father/king. The loss of his hand matches many other accounts from other Indo-European traditions, just has the example I gave of losing the hand as a punishment from breaking an oath. This matches many other gods whose role is precisely being the "Ruler god of the skies". Although, losing the hand to the wolf, to hate and destruction, plus Tyr being a Solar deity, that is related to Astronomy myths which I would like to explore in the future. On the case of Odin, he begins as a death god and god of war ecstasy and battle rage. He became important in Scandinavia with the continental Germanic migrations. He didn't stop being what he was in Germania as Wodanaz, jhe just changed in Scandinavia as Odin. The Scandinavians were the ones to turn him into the Chieftain of the gods, as it was the Elite that spread his Cult. When the cult of Odin entered Scandinavia it was still during the Iron Age. The society of Scandinavian Iron Age was ruled by chieftains, who were not only the military and religious leaders, but also those who possessed the secret knowledge. Late Bronze Age and Iron Age societies are marked by that, by an Elite whose power lies in keeping hidden their knowledge, so they may rule with an almost divine hand. Their right to rule is precisely being above all others because they have more knowledge. That's when Odin, whose Cult was practiced by the Elite and not the common folk, became a god of Wisdom. Odin in Scandinavia starts to represent the Elite, while in Germania he is simply a death deity and battle-frenzy deity, connected to the emotions of battle. In Scandinavia he became a divine priest figure, as you say, because much of the religious performances, still even during the Viking Period, were performed by the nobility. Odin in the Viking Period also became the wanderer we know of, due to the progression of the Viking trading routes into other countries during Medieval times. It was believed that those who went far and wide would become wise. As it says in the Hávamál: "Those who sit at home and never ask questions will never become wise. He who travels widely and gets to know the world, aquires great learning and understanding". This is the kind of life-philosophy of the Viking Period, and thus Odin became the wise-wanderer during this time. Sorry for some typos and minor errors, I just woke up, friend.
Very interesting parallels with King Nuada (losing his hand/arm) and his son Llugh (the Shining One) with Tyr and Baldr.
You do realize that Thor is actually well known as being the most popular god (the god of the people and farmers), followed by Tyr, and that Odin is technically the main god (the leader of the gods).
Ryan Borganson the Poetic Edda, the Prose Edda, and some other more obscure ones that I can’t remember, but the Edda’s are pretty good sources for Norse mythology even if Snorri was Christianizing things some in the Younger Edda, he gave a lot of information that Christianity didn’t really touch-the main thing he did was paint Loki as the Norse Satan.
@@cara5357
Ah...
Poor Loki...
Mistreated by the gods...
Mistreated by the jotuns...
Mistreated even by Snorri.
Does anyone realy wonder why he got soo messed up in the brain and eventualy will bring doom to the gods?
I mean...
This is clearly a joke.
But I do honestly think that in the end Loki is by far one of the most relatable characters in norse mithology.
I mean, who does not simpatize with him?
Beside everyone else in the pantheon....
But watevs....
Odin is also the god of sacrifices, specifically the gallows. We see this attested in Roman sources as well. The 3rd-9th Century period was a time of environmental upheaval as well as political and military. Odin's role in the sacrifice and also a type of "god of the warrior dead" fits into an age of population movement, social breakdown, chaos, death, and military victory and defeat. His replacement of Tyr may be entirely exaggerated as well given that accounts of pagan Anglo-Saxons have them worshiping the "sword god", meaning the god represented by the rune inscribed on swords aka Tyr. This fits also w/ Tyr's role as a victory god, you want your sword to be victorious in battle. However, Odin always hangs over you, waiting to reap your soul.
Yea...but the the Sword God the Saxons worshipped is probably Saxnōt(Seaxnéat) who people have said might be Irmin or Týr, I've heard also that Týr is Irmin. It's all interesting if you ask me.
That would explain Tyr needing to be the one to sacrifice his hand to bind Fenrir. I have always viewed Odin as a shaman of the gods and his role changed in part due to the community shaman no longer really existing due to the scattered nature of Heathenism now.
Wait,, I didn't know there tyr 'needed' to be the one who placed his hand in fenrirs mouth. I thought from the way the story is told that he volunteered ? Am I wrong there?
@@noone3216 the was i know it he was the only one was brave enough to do it. But i also have heard before that fenrir only trusted tyr enough to not instantly eat the hand. Because tyr liked fenrir but realised also that he can not be free. Ofc we have no real way to know how the story originaly was
@@noone3216 yes he volunteered because Fenrir trusted him.
I think the book “Odin’s Wife: Mother Earth in Germanic Mythology” makes a convincing case for Odin as the heir of Dyeus Phter based on comparative mythology, and that Tyr’s name is probably from the common noun tyr, which is from the noun *deywos rather than the theonym Dyeus.
As you might tell from my handle, I have a particular perspective on Tyr/Tiwaz/Tiw. I honour him as the original head of the pantheon, the Germanic manifestation of the Indo-European Sky Father. Thanks for centering his importance within the context of Germanic paganism and its descendants!
This was so informative!
I can't wait to see a video about Ullr and Skaði
Pronouncing Ullr's name made him look like he was "choking on your own tongue", if that made any sense.
Another superb video, to be shared with my friends! It's interesting that in the Finnish language (which is mostly non-Indo-European) the word for "Sky" and for "Heaven" (including Christian Heaven) is "Taivas". Also, I don't know if the Saxon God, Irmin, is the same as Tyr/Tiwaz, but in Finnish the word "Hirmunen" means "enormous" and has a sense of awe to it.
Hej broder, I love the Finnish language especially northern swe/fin, fin/swe, maybe because I can understand it somewhat and I'm swedistani. Have not really understood how the language is constructed, but a friend told me it had a lot of "feeling" or something, did not really understand to be honest. Beautiful language!
@Helge Smutt Another example is "kuningas" which means "king". Also (and I am not sure about this so it's pure speculation by me), the ancient Greeks wrote about a land far to the North, named "Hyperborea" which means "Beyond the North Wind". The capital of Hyperborea was "Thule". The Finnish word "tuuli" means "wind".
@Van Aser we call the little (gnome-like) helpers of joulupukki: tonttu
sounds like the same root word as for tomte
also the spirit being in one's property (house/land) might've been called a tonttu., and also there's a saunatonttu, a tonttu that lives in the sauna... :)
we might have related words to Tyr in finnish:
tuuri (luck), tyyris (expensive), tyyrpuuri (sailing term).,
in old poems there used to be mentions of a hero or a family line of Tuira, a great warrior..
related to waters: tyrsky (when a myrsky/storm is on waters you see tyrsky on waves), turska (a species of fish), turilainen (a big catch, or a big in size).
tuura is something like a iron spike thing with what to make a hole through ice..
also some negative like words, like tyrmä (jail), tyriä (to screw up), tyrä (hernia), tyrkyttää (idk translation, maybe kinda aggressive selling/marketing).
and we have Turku, the old capitol..
:D i bet i don't know the old folks' words as finnish has been 'upgraded' in the last few hundred centuries, but these came to mind
@@Chokwik Very interesting! Thank you for mentioning these words, which may indeed be related to the name "Tyr", but also possibly to "Thor".
Great video as always, I do especially appreciate that you use your scarce free time to keep on teaching as much as you can of the subject, which is not easy and made even more tangled by the many centuries gone, the absence of reliable sources of that time, the interpretations given throughout the centuries, bringing little if no understanding of that past, and so on. You're doing a major job here, so tack själv, Arith!
Man your channel is a treasure cove for a guy like me who's starting now to dig deeper in these topics, you speak a really understandable English but you also added real captions for better understanding, you're clear in your argumentation and, as I already said, you're a well of informations, thanks for your hard work!!!
Thank you for your time man. Appreciate the videos.
Thank you for taking some of your time to watch them ^^
Well done that was very informative Tyr is obviously a major God as we still remember his day every week!
Thank you so much for your videos. This one was "rushed" but information wise was one of your best.
Just blew my mind man! Thank you! Most informative and helpful.
The Lombards probably called him Woden. "Godan" with a G is most likely an attempt to approximate the W sound (represented in Old English with the runic letter wyn) which didn't exist in Latin at the time.
geoffoster82 uh, then wouldn't they have written it as Vodan? As far as I'm aware V made a W sound in Latin, except when it was used as a U.
The Saxons and Angles called him Woden too
By the 7th Century, the W sound in Latin was completely dead and had long sice been replaced by the V sound. That's why Anglo-Saxon writers had to add a new letter, Ƿ ƿ or Wynn, to represent the W sound as it could not be represented by the Latin of the time. In modern times the name William is rendered into Italian as Guglielmo and in French as Guillaume.
@@albertito77 nice
Great video, the transitions when spelled out so succinctly are clear.
ive always been drawn more to Tyr than the other Gods, this helps me to feel more comfortable as im not alone in it
Thank you for this insight. Your videos have been truly helpful.
Thank you.
I'm excited for a Skaldi video now.
Wow this was super amazing and informative to have been done just after work! Go you!
Brother,I really appreciate your insights.Great talk,subbed.
Great explanation, thank you so much for all the work you put into your videos.
thank you :) hehe
Glorious beard Arith!!
Thanks for the great video!
Thanks arith! Awesome as always 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
And thank you for the question hehe
Thank you! I was wondering about this!
Also thank you for the time you take to give us this information.
Another great video friend! Keep it up!
This video took Aegis, but is much better than my pun 😀
Im upset that I enjoyed that pun more than anyone should have lol
Jesus is Loki. He is the trans gender Baphomet image of Satan. He is the trickster God ruclips.net/video/6G1C8Fp8ROE/видео.html Your rightful Lord Odin has returned to help you see
@@lordzeusourgodoftruthstorm8298 You know Odin is the god of intellect wisdom and Contradiction right? or did ja forget, germans love a good Joke, Sleipnirs 9th leg is actually On Us, afterall. , Asgard got destroyed in Avengers👌
Good job on this video. It can be difficult to sort out, but I think you have managed it well.
Thank you :) with future videos on Tyr and Astronomy-myths within the Norse mythology, I think it will be easier to understand the role of Tyr and Odin.
@ Look forward to those. Just wanted to add my thanks for you time and another timely and interesting video. x
Love your videos, so informative, thank you
Thank you this video my friend!
Arith, great video. I really enjoyed this one. I know there isn't much information left about him but if its possible could you put one together about Ullr. Thanks for always makin such interesting and informative videos.
Great talk friend, thank you for squeezing us into your day, Much appreciated! How did you become so knowledgeable on these subjects?
thanks Arith for clearing it up this videos helped me cheers mate
Awesome thank you very much horns up🤘 for mentioning Donar
Thank you for the information. :) I really like and respect Tyr, it's kind of sad when he is not as famous as Thor and Odin.
Actually, odin wasn't really famous
@@corriescott2124 So who is the famous among the Norse gods?
@@WolfShinsengumi thor
Thanks a lot for your great work Sir
Very intresting video cant wait to see a video on the main gods of certain people as you were saying
Fantastic! Thanks man!
I love the environment and your voice! ❤ And of course the theme! 🤗
Outstanding video!
Another superb presentation.
Fico tão feliz quando vc coloca legenda em portuguÊs, há tão pouco material de qualidade traduzido para o Brasil!!!!! Obrigada pelos vídeos!
onde vc assistiu? eu assisti no RUclips no Fire TV em e lá só tem inglês. O Android RUclips tem auto legendas incluindo português mas esse é uma coisa nova que vai aparecer como uma opção por todos vídeos no futuro
Always excellent content.
Interesting video. Very informative.
Thanks for this. Really enjoyed it.
I would like to extend the discussion by talking about how Mjollnir (and Thor) fit into the dynamic with Tyr/Wodan.
My casual study of Norse culture says as Christian influence increased hammer talismans are found in greater abundance. For a time Mjollnir was used to solemnify the occasion in ritual and agreement extensively. Thors role as archetype in Norse society appears to have been to maintain and protect the cosmos from chaos through the metaphor of a flawed blacksmith's hammer. An otherwise unlikely weapon for a god in norse culture given an apparent lack of hammer type artifacts from historical sites. Wielding Mjollnir Thor protected the Innangard from the Jotunn - chaotic beings.
I would understand Mjollnir to represent the height of Norse technology in blacksmithing in addition to the effort and discomfort of sweating it out working iron in the forge. All told a symbol of the toil farmers, shipwrights, tanners, smiths and every other trade that was practiced in Norse cultures experienced. Thus the effort people put forth to build a civilization. Mjollnir being flawed with a short handle is an important detail that I feel makes it symbolic of a person. What meaning I find here is that despite our flaws we are the devices that forge order from chaos with sweat and soot.
So it makes sense to use Mjollnir to hallow agreement and ritual. It is the embodiment of order in Norse society. If people don't honor their agreements then chaos takes root and that's not good for anyone. But how do the parts interact? Tyr is the leader then, correct? He's the judge when someone breaks an oath solemnified with Mjollnir so to speak? So Tyr would be the role model for wise and just rulers? It seems to me that Thor was the main god of the common man while Tyr represented the nobility.
Finally is it really appropriate to read that Mjollnir had boomerang properties? The first time I read the translation I read it as "The hammer will hit whatever you throw it at and can't be lost to one of your fits of rage." but I'm not widely read in the literature.
All the best.
-D
wow, fantastic, I loved the emphasis on etymology and cross tribal comparison.Just great stuff
Excellent video, skal!
Great video!!!!
Great subject, I really enjoy your content.
The amount of information in that video is just incredible
I'm a little skeptical regarding Baldr being Tyr's son... Baldaeg is listed as Woden's son in the Anglo-Saxon chronicles of kings and Phol (continental Baldr) is shown being connected to Odin as it is Odin who heals his horse in the Merseburg Charm.
Nice, all that kinda outweighs his one etymological link, as interesting as it was
Exactly
But the ASC was written by Christians long after the change happened, based somewhat on Roman documentation, rather than being the causal effect of that change from Tyr to Odin.
@@jonwhite9069 By that same logic though, we don't have any evidence of Baldr being worshiped when Tyr was the head of the Germanic pantheon. The closest we can get is his Celtic counterpart, Bel (or perhaps also Balor if you take into account Lugh may be the Celtic equivalent of Loki and that Balor, like Baldr's father, Odin, had one eye). If anything, a better argument can be made that the brothers Baldr and Hodr and Baldr's supposed wife, Nanna, were based on the imported (I mean really, Germanic mercenaries were probably all over the Roman world) cults of the singular deity, Ba'al Hadad (a plausible reason why Saxo recorded Baldr and Hodr competing for Nanna's hand in marriage), and (depending on who you ask) his consort, Inanna, and that their respective deaths and resurrections were incorporated into the Norse mythos through the parenthood of Freya and Odin (the closest Germanic deity to Dagon).
@@LeviathanSpeaks1469 no bud you mixed things up badly Lugh is not Loki
Another important thing is that "main" gods and goddesses in polytheist religion also tend to change based not just though time, but also the location of worshipers. For example the primary god of a fishing town may not have even been Odin or Tyr, but Njord. But since we live in the 21st century and practice post-Christian Norse Polytheism with a large Eddic focus I think it's safe to say that Odin, being the father of the gods and goddesses and the cheif of the Aesir, is currently the main deity and will remain so for a very long time.
Very interesting, thank you very much
Good topic, good info, recent content, active channel, good explanations and passion. Investment... I have subscribed.
Thank you for your very informative videos!
I was hoping to see your take on an even older representation of Tyr archetype that may have an interesting effect on the idea that Tyr is older and also how Odin might have split out of Tyr (Mars is always the expected correlation though).
In Persia and Central Asia, India, there is the sky god "Tir" (to this day, he has a whole month dedicated to him in the persian caendar, Tirgan festival for midsummer), "tir" translated, and in modern tongue, means "arrow" (as in bow and arrow/Warrior god). However, he is also associated with language and communication etc.
You may find more info under his Zoroastrian Tishtriya (and possible similar relation to Mithra as Tyr and Odin?).
Trying not to write a book here on my research on this. ha!
I just wondered if the Tir archetype might have travelled to Europe through the Indo-european languages. Vikings did later visit Persia, but both Tyr and Tir are earlier and so the question is, which is older? are they even related? and could we trace Tyr back to far more ancient human roots? It seems Tyr survived a much longer time before the conditions that led to Odin replacing him, as you say. That is what would be significant to me.
Thanks again!!
Interesting video = new subscriber! 😊 In Dutch, Tuesday is Dinsdag. I read somewhere that "Dinsdag" originally was "Dings-dag", which seems plausible to me.
Fascinating and interesting video
Looking forward to you video on Ullr and Skaði
Me too!
Awesome video! Though the main spelling of the Old English/Anglo-Saxon name of Woþanaz is Wóden, rather than Wéden which is the lesser known variant. Wéden interestingly is the spelling that survives into modern day Wednesday and some place names like Wednesbury and Wednesfield though other place names in England relating to Woden have other spellings of Woden such as Woodnesborough, Wodnesfield and Wansdyke.
In Russia the word for hero is made up of two words meaning “Of the god Tyr”, the Indo-European word for God (Bog) probably relating to the La Tene. “Boga-Tyr”, one who safeguards the innocent. I wonder if it came with the eastern Sitones tribe or with Iron Age Vikings. 🤔
GOOD CONTENT...THANKS
Tack så mycket :D
Awesome Video, thanks a lot. I am researching the Tyr/Tiwaz/Ziu for some years now and you were even able to give me some additional insight. Do you know something about the Word Ziuwari?
Much thanks!!! 🤗
Hey, maybe if you will, of course, you could talk a bit about the wild hunt. For instance the apparent leader entity of it, Wod, which most believe was the former name that came to be wotan that then turned into wöden or something like this...
Nice content as usual ! Thanks!
Thank you!
Yes it would make sense that as the leader Tyr would pledge his hand to Fenrir in order to reassure the wolf at his binding.
Another great, informative video Arith. Only lacking one ingredient :(
Only lacking Mr. T., isn't it? lol
@ Of course he is the star of the show. Numero uno.
Oh! A gift from the gods! I JUST brought up this topic a week ago at a gathering, and said that I would love to more about this very thing! And here it is! Hail! :-D *delighted face*
What God's do you prey to ?
Interesting video, thank you as always
I personally dont really think of there being a leader/main deity, historically and according to the various writings we have sure, but from a personal point of view i just pray to whoever i most need that most suits whatever is going on in my life
Of course i dont pray to them to fix my problems, but to teach me how to fix my own
Thank you, this explains so much ,much if which lies in my own lineage.
Thank you so much for some great videos and sharing your knowledge! I live in Tikøb, Denmark, which is one of the only surviving names from really old times, Tivitkop or Tyr´s holy forest. Maybe you could tell me a little about how they would have worshiped Tyr and why he is connected to the forest?
You give off a bit of a Bob Ross vibe. Subscribed.
nice touch with the jazz.
Learning more about Germanic mythology I found I had more affinity with Tyr and wondered why he and not Odin wasn’t the leader of the gods considering his many noble characteristics. It all makes sense now.
Thank you for this informative video!
Norse Society was one of battle and War, men were supposed to be fierce and strong in battle, so to be week. Was to be without character, and the man wouldn't have wanted to be called an argr/ergi. In the Viking age it was an insult to be called either argr or Vikingr. A man could á Vikingr ( go a Viking/ go raiding) but calling someone a Viking was an insult. Getting back on topic, Odin was a God to be feared, not to be loved. He is the one who chooses the outcomes of battles, not Tyr. Nothing in Norse mythology says that tear was ever associated with war. There is no archaeological or written records to suggest that was the case. That myth came about in the 19th century. If anyone can be considered the God of War it would be Odin, because like I said he is the one who can choose the outcomes of battles. It is implied in Norse mythology that Tyr doesn't like getting involved when it comes to conflicts, Plus, the gods aren't really gods of something they never really do anything that has to do with their God of title. We don't have any myths where Tyr does anything with war or Justice.
Hey, great video as always. I did have a question I was wondering what you thought about something. I looked through all of your videos in the video list, but what's your thoughts/ takes on the nine noble virtues? I look forward to see what you have to say
I must also mention that there are a lot of places, both settlements and woodlands, named after Tyr or Ti (as he was known as in Sweden) here in Sweden.
One of (if not the) largest of Sweden's forests called Tiveden means literally Ti's Wood or Tyr's Wood.
In my home region/muncipality Närke we have two Iron Age strongholds/settlements both bearing the name "Tisareborg", which translates to Fort of Tiwaz/Ti's Fort/Tyr's Fort.
While writing this I just remember we have a lake in Närke called Tisaren.
I bet Tisaren is also named after Tiwaz/Ti/Tyr.
So happy to have found you! Or did your works find me? Lolz
You are wise. Thank you. You have great insight and knowledge. Tyr has always been my father.
first I was complaining that I can't listen to the video while chewing crispy crisps..
but then the video was finished... and then I thought... dude I like those videos.. this is a good Channel.
What was the flavour of those crispy crisps? :V
@ Yes sir - I'm honored,
It was plain flavor with salt.. which was alternate nibbled with a fine gouda cheese...
keep up the good work!!!
more power to you.
Great Info dump. Would like sources for further reading.
thank yew arith. have fun gare
Gratidão por todo conhecimento sempre 💜💜🔥🔥🤘
fantatstc and thanx, I'm waiting a video about Odr/Ullr/Odinn
Excellent wow wonderful video, 100% elitist in clarifying everything I needed to know about the content! You are an amazingly gifted soul being taking confusing and making it not confusing,..and I welcome that in my life time, in this current life..haha lol.
Thank you! Brother!
Much LiGhtLove namaste
👁💜👁💙👁💚👁💛👁❤️👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍❤️❤️❤️❤️
Such a lovely comment, thank you so much! 😁
This channel is so goood.....
Out of all of the videos, pods etc ive learned from so far aout Tyr in my quest for info (im new in this), this makes the most sense. Also, where does Tyr holding the sun and moon come from? First ive heard of this, thanks in advance.
Tack !
Wow, very interesting.
Great video! Very instructive. But i got some asks... besides the war conception of Odin, there's also the conception of Odin a wanderer, someone who has knowledge, that is seen in myths like the one Odin lost his eye to get the runes. Is there any explanation behind this? The conception of a wise god is also actually from Tiwaz?
If time is limited but you still want to upload regular videos, perhaps you can shoot 2-3 minute videos explaining little tidbits of Germanic/Norse culture & mythology? Matt Easton (Scholagladiatoria) started doing this a while back to supplement his usual 20+ minute ramblings. Condensed knowledge is often easier to share.
A thing that has bothered me with Tyr and his namesakes Zeus and Jupiter is that he doesn't seem to share their powers as thunder and storm gods. This power went to Thor and I have been wondering if Thor, which means "the thunderer" is just another name for Tyr as Zeus was also called Brontios which means "the thunderer". So either Zeus and Jupiter took over the thunderers role as thunder and storm gods or Tyr lost his powers as he was split into two gods as Tyr and Thor, where Tyr is a very obscure figure compared to Thor in the Eddas. Either way, Thors hammer (not the Marvel one) do look a lot like a Tiwaz rune, the rune of Tyr, if you turn the hammer upwards.
It would be incorrect to assume that Tyr ever held the position of being a thunderer. Tyr, Jupiter, and Zeus are all descended from the proto-Indo-European Dyeus Pater, which means sky father or shining father. Dyeus Pater was not associated with thunder, a separate god named Perkwunos was the one associated with being a thunderer, this is the god that Thor is from. Perkwunos was also associated with oaks, which is why Thor is also associated with oaks.
Jupiter and Zeus taking on the role of a thunderer is not original, it is a corruption that was added to the religion, so the Germanic tradition is much closer to the original than the Greek or the Roman. Also, there is some evidence that Mars was the original thunderer in the Roman pantheon, and that Mars was the Roman descendant of the original PIE Perkwunos.
So, instead of asking why Tyr wasn't a thunderer, you should be asking why Zeus and Jupiter are thunderers.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Zeus got spliced by Greeks at some point with head gods of their Semitic neighbours. We know that they adopted a version of Ishtar/Inanna after all. And these Semitic head gods, like Baal, tended to be associated with thunder and bulls, both attributes of Zeus, neither characteristic to other Deus Pater gods.
@@user-tj6vo1cr2u The semitic god you're referring to, Baal Hadad, was based upon the Indo-European hittite god Tarhunt or Tarhunna. This god was also known to the hurrians as teshub. He is the hittite variation of the proto-indo-european god Perkwunos, who was already mentioned.
The story of the storm god who battles and defeats the serpent originates from the Indo-Europeans, with Perkwunos. The Baal cycle, which is a semitic version about the thunder god Baal Hadad defeating a serpent, copies this story. So, we know much of the mythology was transferred from the Indo-Europeans to the semites of the Levant. The depictions of Baal Hadad that can be searched are also identical to the depictions of Tarhunt from the hittites.
So with that point, even if the thunder aspects applied to Zeus and Jupiter were both directly from the semites, their origin would still lie within the Indo-European sphere from the Indo-European people of anatolia. However it is actually more likely that the thunder characteristics of Zeus came directly from the Indo-Europeans of Anatolia, rather than from the semites anyway.
@The Infidel I didn't refer to the anatolia hypothesis. The anatolia hypothesis has actually been disproven with genetics, the kurgen theory is correct. Indo-Europeans came from the steppe. Nobody here denied that.
I referred to the Indo-European speakers who later settled anatolia, the Hittites, Luwians, etc. These groups are confirmed to have been Indo-European speakers and they came into great contact with Greeks. See the Illiad. This is probably the source of Greeks adding thunderer elements to Zeus, as the main God of the anatolian Indo-Europeans was the thunder god Tarhunt/tarhunna/etc.
The anatolian Indo-Europeans are also the source behind semitic thunder gods such as Baal Hadad. Baal Hadad was appropriated from the Indo-European thunder God. Many traits of Yahweh were also appropriated from the Indo-European thunder God, such as the story of his battle with the sea serpent Leviathan. Being that the Greeks had more direct contact with anatolian Indo-Europeans, it is more likely they took traits from their pantheon, rather than from the semitic pantheon.
Not sure how you implied that I was talking about the anatolia hypothesis. Perhaps you should study history more, so you would be able to understand what people are referring to before you make yourself sound like an asshole. Take care.
Another great video as always!... (On a different note [and if this is too personal, feel free not to answer, as I don't mean to pry]: I've recently found out (while watching another video of yours) that you have ancestors from Germany, Sweden, Italy and Portugal... Can you speak Portuguese? "Falas Português"?... I myself have some Portuguese ancestors, as well as Italian (I think my name speaks for itself- Ha! Ha!) and some Bavarian ones).
Hello there! Yes indeed I do have Italian, Swedish, German and Portuguese ancestry. The last person in my family to really speak Swedish was my Great-Great-grand-mother, in the end of the 19th century. I seldom use swedish these days and it's mostly English and Portuguese, so yes, I do speak Portuguese hehe. Olá! :p
Arith Härger .... Fantástico! Obrigado por responder!... And congratulations on your good word, and please, keep it up! I've been saving your videos and revising them from time to time as reference for my studies! (I specially like the ones about the Runes - the one about the runic postures for meditations, for example, is one that I've truly made of! ...I hope there are more videos about runes in your agenda! ;)
Brilliant
Love your video from India
That's interesting about Ullr and Skadi; they are on my altar and, as I live in a mountain area, are very important to me.
I want to make a video about them, mostly because of you. I didn't forget your request. Half the research is done, I just need to find/make time hehe
@ Whenever you find the time, I look VERY forward to seeing it!
I greatly appreciate your analysis. I think Snorri’s knowledge was quite expanded, and he’s not the anti-Heathen Christian many modern heathens assume. His euhemerist history in the prologue of Odín coming and setting his sons up as kings with priests called Díar says something indirect that is incredibly important.
We need to go back to Sumerian term for god Dingir, supposedly pronounced “tingir” where ng is like Inguz. The cuneiform symbol is an 8-spoked wheel, and because the tool used in clay was wide on one side and thin on the other it has the image of 4 wide on the left and 4 thin on the right, and I’ll get back to this later. For now, we need to know it was a general term for any deity, being the symbol before the proper name like “God X” or “Goddess Y.” It was also used in front of priest and king names, revealing the divine role they played.
There is another time it is used, however, and this is in the middle of a word or sentence…and the sound is “an” like the main Sumerian God’s name An. This tells me that T and A in elder runes are both related to divinity in particular, but reveals a common duality between divine identity and the Holy Spirit. How do I get to “Holy Spirit”? Through Ahura Mazda, literally “Spirit Major,” of Zoroastrianism. The history of Zarathustra as a prophet of a revolutionary cult is extremely important. His purpose to create the new religion was because the early caste system had been failing society. It first started when the warriors protected the farmers in a mutually supportive sociological arrangement as the farmers fed and housed the nomadic warrior guards with guest right ethics. He complained that the warriors were abusing the farmers, taking too much and providing no protections as the warrior caste gained military power. This is why he called the Daivas evil and Ahura Mazda the good one when devas were the good ones and asuras the evil ones in India.
It seems Zarathustra witnessed the warriors lose their divinity as the Holy Spirit was no longer present. Cain and Able are a variation of this schism as the farming brother killed the herdsman because God preferred meat sacrifices. At the same time, Jesus turning over the market tables during Passover, as people bought their lambs to fulfill their temple obligations, was a protest against the spiritual materialism marketing meat sacrifices. The spirit had been lost, which is why it was such an insult, proclaiming to be the only child of God present at that time praising the Holy Spirit as the others were basically guilty of idolatrous emptiness by empowering money to such a degree.
Anyway, this schism has various mythical expressions. One is that the temple urban order, the first of human urbanization in both Old and New worlds, empowered the warrior caste to protect the trade and pilgrimage routes that upheld the temple complexes in all the continents with humans residing. Tyr, the priest king, raised the wolf so he was also, as you say, the gods of the art/institution of war. Yet, the warrior caste usurped his power as religious practices evolved without idols. This was a phenomenon where emperors stole idols of conquered temples to fully dominate the temple complexes. Abraham (A-Brahman, or “not Brahman”) outlawed idolatry so that the god of the people could not be taken as material spoils of war. This internalized human religiosity.
Tengri, the god of the Steppe culture, is said to have various manifestations, “like 5 fingers make 1 fist.” Tian/T’ien in Chinese is both “Heaven” and “god.” Not just ANY god, either, but the Father of a divine family of 8. Yes, we see the Egyptian Ennead, with Geb as the progenitor so that the Luoshu (3x3 magic square) is completed. Tengri is directly derived from Dingir, which was written as Il in Akkadian, the Semitic forerunner of El. We also see Thingus and Di, as in the priesthood from Snorri. Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor of China founded Chinese Medicine. Legendary dates are mid 3rd century, a good 600 years AFTER Ützi died in the Alps. He had 64 tattooed acupoints for diseases we know he had.
We can also see Tyr losing his hand for the same reason Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the original temple of Israel…the spiritual order took up imperial arms! The details in Snorri about the binding of Fenrir is also very important. After successfully collared, his leash was thrown in a pit burial, typical of Pythagorean immortality practices as detailed by Herodotus about Zalmoxis, the Geatic “slave of Pythagoras.” Then “a certain sword” was used as a mouth prop. Since his hand was there, the obvious name of that sword, the main kenning for any sword, was Tyrfingr. The Torah is to be turned by a finger of God on that special wand, repeated when God touches Adam by finger tips.
Then there is Buddha trapping the Stone Monkey King in Buddha’s palm, called 5 Element (“phases”) mountain. This is the skull when a warrior isolates himself in meditation. Sword mysticism says the sharpness of the sword represents the sharpness of the mind wielding it. The sword is the brain and spinal cord in the stone of the spine, as Tyrfingr was the Excalibur of the Gothic people. The spit dripping down the sword is called “Hope” because it is the cerebrospinal fluid dripping down to provide the nerves with sentient power…sensation.
Hugr (mind) is to Huginn (thought)
As Óðr (sense) is to Óðinn (sensation/sentience). One is the faculty and the other is the action it performs. Óðinn is “Allfather” because things only exist to the mind of it is validated by sentient experiences.
Tyr being associated with Mars is only a superficial assessment and not really true. Thor is the red-bearded god, not Tyr, as Marduk is much more a Thor, child of God. Thunder is the 1st son in the Bagua and he usurps his father’s seat of power as Jade Emperor is the Green Spring of Thunder. Indra pulled Dyaus from his throne by his Achilles heel! Tyr lost his power to the taming of the warrior spirit. It was an alchemical transformation in a sweat practice, like Monkey in the mountain. The classic warrior dilemma is how to tame the killer while in peaceful civic life? One must refine oneself to be an alchemical healer, as in martial arts proper one learns how to heal before learning how to kill.
Obviously I could go on, but I can stop now. I hope people don’t mind reading this much, but it seems people have to watch things spoken these days. Again, many thanks for your astute analysis.
Asking who the "main deity" was for a Polytheistic culture is a fool's errand. For a Viking raider, it was Odin. For a farmer in Sweden, it was Freyr. For someone attending the yearly Allthing, Tyr. For a man about to fight a duel, it was Ullr. For a sailor, Njord, Aegir, and Ran held equal esteem. A hunter desperate to feed his family would pray to Skadhi. Polytheism has room for many "main" Gods.
I remember reading that the aesir vanir war was actually supposed to be a allusion to an actual battle between native Scandinavians and a invading force.
After watching this video it birthed a theory that comes from the same vein: the vanir tribe of gods represented the native Scandinavians and the vanir we're probably their gods originally too
The aesir represented the Germanic people who were displaced by Roman imperial expansion and the aesir we're also the Germanic peoples' gods
Idk if I'm on to anything or not but I felt the need to share
I have said so too. It is more apparent in Indo-Persian lore.
In Indian mythology - the good gods are devas and the 'evil' ones are Asuras.
In Persian myth, the Good god is Ahura Mazda (Grimm's rule - sounds migrates from throat to palate to mouth to tip of tongue and back again) and the evil gods are Daevas.
This just shows the background.
As for Odin having a thousand names again I agree with it just being local gods being incorporated into Odin as I see it everyday in the South of India.
The history of a people can be half learnt from their folk tales and pantheons.
Im surprised you mentioned "Tiwaz". Before Wodan/Odin as 'AllFather' they had a montheïstic view, but Tiwaz had many names 'Wodanaz, Thonaraz, (also Baldr etc) later these names became seperate identities, and for a while in germany, in some places Thonaraz (Donar/Thor) was the main one, but ultimatly Wodan(az)/Odin became the pime deity.