Tyr definatly, coz there is so little I know about the hero who was the one brave enough to put his hand in the mouth of Fenris, when the gods wanted to put a leece on him...
I cannot believe I live in a time when this level of scholarship is shared for free on a format that I can just consume without end. I have no background on Norse mythology, so I need to take the information you give at face value, but slowly a picture is building up and it is astounding to see that I can actually learn meaningful things about Norse mythology thanks to you. I learned so much from your channel. Thanks so much Jon.
And thank you for your kind words and for watching. The reason it is here is because my University changed how it taught students due to the pandemic, and I felt I wanted to provide a platform to share my knowledge with a wider audience, to give all students a better chance at understanding these things. It really does make me feel happy when I hear they have learned something through watching this material, and it is also why I try to read all the comments and answer as many questions as I can. Just making the world a little better :)
@@Crecganford do we know about the linguistic evolution of "Sky-Father" in Celtic? Is there any more reason to compare Nuada to Tyr, or only based on themes?
Jon, I have only recently 'discovered' your excellent videos and have since been binge watching them. I found this one particularly interesting, there is a lot of 'food for thought'. No questions from me at the moment (I'm still digesting everything from this video), but I did want to say thank you for the effort you are putting into this channel. The information is superb and the way that it is delivered is incredibly engaging. Please keep the videos coming :-)
I knew about the linguistic connection between Tyr and Deus, but I'd never even heard of the connection between Fjoergyn and Perkunas. Thank you for this vid. Your knowledge of this subject is extremely impressive. Subbed.
In this conversation about Indo-European Sky/Storm Gods, I was anticipating some mention of the Vedic king of the gods, Indra. Whenever the gods assemble to fight the asuras, he is their commander in chief. He is certainly a storm god. He rides a wild 7-headed winged stallion named Uchchaihshravas and wields the celestial weapon Vajra, the thunderbolt. His personality is very much similar to Zeus and Jupiter (much more so than to Thor). Any linguistic connection between Indra's name to Zeus or Jupiter, or Thor, or Tyr certainly isn't obvious (to me at least). Come to think of it, he is also called Devesh, or Devaraj (lord or king of the gods). Heh heh... there you go....
That's because "Indra" (Lord) is a title, with many proposed etymologies, amongst them "hero" or "igniter", for his ability to bring light and power (indriya) that ignites the vital forces of life (prana). The cognate of Tyr would just be generic "deva" as said in this video.
I admit that my favor for Tyr comes from his appearance in Forgotten Realms as the god of Paladins, but my small amount of research does lead me to believe that Tyr was the original leader of the Germanic/Norse pantheon. It has been pointed out by experts that Tyr's loss of his hand was the only way to subjugate Fenrir while maintaining the legitimacy of the gods. As the honorable and just god of law and combat (which would likely have been directly connected to justice) only Tyr could make that binding promise and fulfill it. We have so little data on earlier Germanic and Norse beliefs. Early Roman reports varyingly describe worship of a war god or a magic god. So, Tyr may have been the early war god, or this role may have shifted to Odin or Thor by that point. The magic god was certainly Odin. Later, there may have been mention of Odin as a war leader worshipped by an apocalyptic cult, the god that would lead the other gods in Ragnarok. As I understand it, Odin wasn't so much a warrior god as a god who might help you win a battle, a god of clever tricks ans deception, perhaps one willing to win a battle using less honorable means, but to win. And I seem to recall a certain value of Viking Age Norse on cleverness and tricks in winning with less focus on standing up to honorable one-one-one combat. It's entirely possible that the war god mentioned by one report may have been about a different one than a report earlier on.
Thank you so much for watching, and for taking the time to comment such a great reply. I agree that I would love to know more but the information is limited, and that is such a shame.
Nothing wrong with that. You've got to get introduced somehow. I loved the Forgotten Realms pantheon. Actually, I love all Dungeons and Dragons pantheons. I've played Dungeons and Dragons for as long as I can remember. I was raised on it. It actually came out the year I was born.
I beleive Tir to be among the old Vanir tribe/pantheon vith basis in fertility (and war)... Odin was brought to Scandinavia by the germanic mercenaries (Auxilleries) during the migration period, or probably before... A lot of roman influence flow in a steady stream into the whole of Scandinavia... There is a "war" between the Aesir and the Vanir - a "war" on beleif and the pantheon... The oldest willage names in eg. Denmark have the ending: -ING (Ingvi / Frey) are are from the first centyry = supporting the Vanir idea... Odin suited the "kings" and during the Younger Germanic Iron Age, Vendel Period, Merowingian Era we see the scandinavian societies transforming from "tribe" to "state - and lay the foundation to the viking era... Just the headlines as my english is not so good and explaining the ideas in writing would take me forever... I especially like this video and I follow and beleive I understand your conclusions... I will begin to re-watch your videos... Thanks... ,-)
Thats an excellent appraisal and one i concur with. Explains his lost hand as why he is no longer male head of an equality based agricultural fertility pantheon such as the Vanir were.
@@Crecganford I tend to think that Tyr came first and is a bronze age guy along with Freyr/Freya, Thor came with the iron and the hammering of it and Odin/Wotan came as a traveler, he is so different from all of them that he appears to be from another pantheon. And that begets a question: Why did Odin take to the road - from where? - what had he done? - and thus arrive in this context?
@@Astavyastataa I couldn't remember Rudra from my time in school, where we learn about the old Norse culture, so I asked Mr. Google. He found an explanation on Wikipedia: Rudra - Wikipedia Rudra (/ ˈ r ʊ d r ə /; Sanskrit: रुद्र) is a Rigvedic deity associated with Shiva, the wind or storms, Vayu, medicine, and the hunt. One translation of the name is 'the roarer'. In the Rigveda, Rudra is praised as the "mightiest of the mighty". Rudra means "who eradicates problems from their roots".
Your etymology of the name Tyr is very interesting. With just this one name, the connections between all the languages that developed from the Indo-European language is clearly demonstrated. The names of the gods that developed through this one name are all very recognizable to students of mythology, which helps make these connections become clear.
@Ivan The Terrible there was no need for "copying" . Celtic,Greek, germanic and Roman paganism are historically connected same as to vedic/sanskrit and old Persian mythology .
@Ivan The Terrible sure you can see the deep connection latest since the Jastorf-Kultur where celtic and elb germanic cultures mixed but even before in the Aunjetitzer culture there are similarities in the celtic and germanic Hügelgräber. There is a continuity since ~ 1000 v.u.z.
Also, Tyr's association with justice and honor (though flawed by the Fenrir incident) could cause one to link him with Zeus/Jupiter. Your presentation is thoughtful and well done as always. I value the fact that you present multiple views on subjects. Everything is usually more complicated than at first appearance, especially when God's are involved.
I was going to add this as well. I have always had more the understanding of him as the god of law, order and justice, with war being more secondary (several different gods in the Norse pantheon can be linked to war, really). This would of course hint to an original Sky Father role, the one who holds balance and order. (Which Odin later may have "usurped", especially looking at the video talking about "Allfather" actually being about keeping order, not father at all.)
This video was very enlightening, I've been trying to answer this question myself for a long time, as a follower of Tyr and wanting to get his story right. It's very unfortunate we don't have much surviving texts at all from the periods you covered (my understanding that it's mostly been oral with little written down texts but I could be wrong), but your shot in the dark theory I agree with!
Brilliant video you have an amazing ability for storytelling! I have ADHD and struggle to focus on videos especially when they dont have visual aids to keep me busy but i havent struggled with a single video of yours 👍really great work
Dear god, is there anything this man doesn’t know?! He’s so relatable, but also has extensive multi-specialty knowledge and is able to connect the dots. I’m so grateful for this source of brain joy! 💕🐝💕🇺🇸
The Tyr/Odin duality also works if we consider a popular sociopolitical structure amongst ancient cultures, the dual chiefdom. Wherein one god/lord is assigned to peace-time matters (Odin), and the other is in charge during war (Tyr).
Regarding the evolution of the Old Norse pantheon and the three main groups within it, Jotnar, Vanir and Æsir. Could this possbly reflect three different cultures and the interaction between them? Possibly the Pitted Ware, the Funnelbeaker and the Corded Ware cultures? The Funnelbeaker culture, being a farming culture would have use of fertility gods, such as the Vanir Frøy and Frøya. As they are considered to have replaced the maritime Ertebølle culture, this could also point towards the maritime sea god Njord. The Corded Ware culture arriving later and presumably being more aggressive and warlike could then fit with the Æsir and their focus on heroism, might and death. The conflict between the Vanir and Æsir could very well reflect on real initial conflict between the two cultures, and the merging of Vanir and Æsir into one pantheon the merging of two cultures. The Pitted Ware culture, being hunter gatherers, could fit with the Jotnar being perceived as quite different from Vanir and Æsir. Different in their way of life, yet seemingly of the same kind of beings. Then the mingling of these three groups into the Boat-axe culture, with adaption of their beliefs and deities into the Old Norse pantheon throughout the Nordic Bronze age.
There is certainly some support for that, and in fact my next video touches on who the jotnar really were. So I hope you watch that too. Thank you for your comment, it was very much appreciated.
Wow. You've just corroborated my conclusion over the god Tyr. As a sky god, Tyr MUST have had some kind of cosmic weapon, just like the thunderbolts of Zeus or Taranis, or indeed the hammer of Thor or the middle eastern sky god whose name escapes me. But we know that his hand (which one!) was removed by Fenrir, thus rendering his weapon (presumably it was his right hand that was removed) impotent. And as you point out, Odin was not a sky god but a god centred around ancestry and Kingship, and so the role of the sky god in the Aesir was taken by Thor (Thunnor ("thunder"). So it begs the question, did Mjollnir once belong, not to Thunnor, but to TYR, as the original sky deity? I believe it may well have been the case. Also I believe it was Bede who pointed out that Odin was originally NOT a god, but a DEIFIED KING. Hence the genealogies of some of the Kings of the heptarchies tracing their ancestry back to Woden (Odin). This would then make sense of the three gods of Norse mythology, who would appear to jostle for place as the Sky Father - Tyr was the ORIGINAL Sky Father ("The Allfather"), who was "emasculated" by his dealings with Fenrir, to then allow the NEW "Sky Father" Thunnor to take his place. In a similar manner (although by no means an exact parallel) to Cronos being emasculated by Zeus, who henceforth took his place. This leaves Odin, who was "the most powerful" of Norse gods but not because he had attained the level of Sky Father, but because he was a personification of worldly monarchy, and therefore wielded power over the gods as their "King" or "father". This is just fantastic stuff. RIGHT up my street. Liked and subscribed. Well done that man.
Talking about using fenrir to bring down a king by removing the hand, i wonder if fenrir can stand as symbolism for the wolf warriors that should have been around in those time. I think he made a video about those too.
One aspect of Norse gods and worship that I may bring up, not to derail your hypothesis, but I think is important nonetheless. Norse gods weren't really known as "the god of insert thing here". Eg: Thor wasn't the god of thunder, his name just literally meant "thunder". Just like Tyr wasn't the god of anything, but became associated with concepts like justice because of his actions in the Eddas. Seeing the gods as divine manifestations of worldly concepts isn't really a Norse concept, it's much more of a Roman or a Greek mood. I don't think it's implausible to suggest that the Norse saw Odin as their chief god because he was a wise, old man in essence with many names. Tyr being cognate with Zeus and Jove doesn't mean he held an equal position with them. Cognates can change meaning across languages, and by the time you get to pre-Proto Norse peoples it's tough to say if we're still talking about the same entity by that point. To me, it feels like stretching evidence to fit a narrative.
According to Schwerpunk (an historian who have a channel here om RUclips) Tyr was the representative not of wat ifself, but of battle, while Odin would be the actual god associated with the leading of an army in search of glory and battle, representing the ancient and already veteran warrior, Tyr would be more like a young warrior, who represents battle itself on a more localized meaning... This is interesting, since Tyr is said on the Eddas to be the most brave of all gods, maybe he represents the young and brave warriors with more energy, while Odin is more like an instigator, someone who is behind the wars.
Tyr as head god makes more sense if you flip who took over from whom and assign Odin a role similar to what Ra had going, where he's around and definitely important but he doesn't really get involved much. Odin really likes going out into the world and wandering, when he is home he seems to prefer listening to his ravens and sitting on his throne, and he got banished from Asgard that one time, so who runs things most of the time? Thor usually likes to take off to thwack Jotun, so probably not him. Heimdall is watching the bridge, Bragi is doing whatever Bragi does, etc. So that just leaves Tyr as the only other one associated with leadership. Personally I think Loki and Tyr are both aspects of Odin, the concentrated trickster and wargod forms
Your observation that many scholars are averse to speculation hits the nail on the head. Fruitful speculation involves testing ideas by what is known, by looking for parallel patterns, and by being willing to reject hypotheses that only work in isolated, anecdotal situations. Without some degree of speculation, nothing new can be discovered in a field about long-dead people’s thoughts and stories which were mostly not written down.
I think the primary reason as to why people started asking this question is due to a show called American Gods. This is a very complicated question, especially when you take into account cults dedicated to certain gods. Yngvi-Freyr was popular for the Swedes, Seaxneat for the Saxons, goddess Nerthus(who went on to be the male god Njordr)before a lot of the pantheon was worshipped in the way the Vendel/Viking era Norse did. Very difficult question.
I think high level speculation educated guesstimates are critical to learning and the creation of hypothesis to be tested. You did a wonderful job of explaining your reasoning and were clear with regard to with was guess and speculation without asserting them as fact. It is how people learn and grow in their own thinking and efforts to move our understanding forward over time. So pish-posh on old school academics you are not teaching adolescents in rote learned facts. Thanks to you and your patrons.
The etymology of Tyr. Who knew? Not I. "Dancing in all its forms cannot be excluded from the curriculum of all noble education; dancing with the feet, with ideas, with words, and, need I add that one must also be able to dance with the pen?" - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) Oh, you are smooth and graceful and subtle, and one must pay close attention. Listening to your presentations more than once - recalling what you've said about (for example) reading a text more than once to get a better gist - can create for me a wider (unexpected) perspective. Your WHG hews down mercilessly the oppressing and unnecessary, and your EEF methodically tills the soil and plants precious seeds in minds so that the future will be a better place - although many of those seeds will remain dormant in some for quite a while yet. But they are there... I'm gushing, again, but it's important to me to en-courage you to continue (as I have a vague notion of the time and effort involved in assembling your videos), so that I - as a late-bloomer - can glean what I'm able regarding your thinking-methods (freely available to any who have an interest) and your style. I'm slow, and I skim across a very wide surface, but my Ultimate Concern, is to dive deeper. I do try to 'give in return' if I'm able - not in the market-value way, but from gratitude. Thank you, Sir Jon of CRECGANFORD.🗡🌾
Such kind and thoughtful words, and they are much appreciated, as is the poetic style of your words. I hope I can continue to allow your thoughts to grow alongside the videos that I will continue to make.
In Gatka, a Sihk martial art Tyr is associated with archery. The rune Tyr also is arrow shaped. I hypothesize that the god Tyr had been a wielder of the war bow until forced to use a sword in off hand.
In Irish mythology it was Nuada, king of gods, who lost a hand or arm in battle. Because of that he was unfit to lead, and the god Lugh took over. In India it was the sungod Surya who lost his hand. Nuada his lost hand was replaced by a silver hand, in Surya's case it was a golden hand.
Could you please mention the sources regarding Surya losing his hand ( and getting it replaced by a golden prosthetic?). As far as I'm aware he broke his jaw in the Aditya clan vs Rudra clan civil war following Sati's self immolation. But I haven't heard of him losing his hand though.
@@bennyvangelder7624 thanks but I don't have the book. Could you please mention the source where the author has taken this story from? I mean the source in Hindu religious scriptures.
That was a worthwhile conversation even if some speculation would displease hardcore "scientists". Logical, worth thinking about and entertaining. Thankyou
I'm glad these threads can be examined and reconsidered from another perspective too. The nuances make a difference, and time is long. Especially without writing. Long tales in winter, to fill many days. I'm actually looking for info on Finnish beliefs. There must have been differences of interest, due to waves of different pastorals and settlers. Asking for a friend. 🤭
I will make a video on Finnish culture and beliefs, but it is a more challenging task due to having less source material. But when I feel I can do a good enough job, I will :)
May I suggest that a shift in the role of a god may actually be a reflection of a shift in the prominence of their priests and their devotees. Alternatively, a god may come to be preferred due to a perception of that god being more responsive to oracular inquiries or divination and, therefore, more helpful, and eventually, more important to a given people. Over time, many diverging Indo-European peoples may come to rank their gods differently. Another way a shift in a god's ranking and/or role may occur when a people migrate into a new land and acquire a fixed shrine with it's attending priests. There may have been a fixed divine infrastructure but the tribes were not fixed. It's like being a Catholic and attending a church with one patron saint, then moving to a new town and going to a church with a different patron saint. You can't keep referring to your old church because you aren't there anymore but must accept the local prominence given to your new church's patron saint.
The video was more about whether Tyr was Dyeus Phter, as opposed to why there was a shift in the gods. But you are right there are many reasons for this, and I personal feel migration and conflict were probably key reasons for this.
Losing a hand or arm must have been one of the more common survivable wounds, and many warriors might well relate to Tyr and see such injuries as badges of honor.
Actually look into the society structure of the celtic tribe it will make more sense. Within the tribe you had the leader and head warrior, and the druid which was equal if not higher than the clan leader. Druid is the religious leader, the healer, magician and etc. They both lead the tribe from different rules. This fits Odin and Tyr rule within the Pantheon and why both are seen as head of it at one point. Also within celtic tribes, one that is unfit for battle is unfit to lead. Thus losing his hand made him lose his prowess and throne. Merlin is a Druid, and his story fits many of Odins stories. Where he brought forth kings, magical swords and messed in the affairs of man. Food for thought. Good video
Wotan meaning battle fury, or rage also fits within the berserker. As a Mage would use magic to aid the warriors in battle from afar, gifting them an edge. His edge was the strength of bears, wolves and boars. Odin is a Druid and high ranking religious figure, hence the name all father and sky father.
I love your videos. I was slightly interested in the title but the way you walk through the related facts was amazing. Do you write? Have you been an academic or is this "just" a personal passion? I would love to see a discussion of Odin (is that D really a th?) in relation to Wotan and Woden etc. Sure you're too busy to reply to every bit of drivel on your old vids but thanks.
I am an academic, and I do author, but usually under a different name. Yes the D is really pronounced as a "th", and I will talk about Odin more in the not too distant future. Thank you for watching and your questions.
Well-done, especially with the paucity of data at your disposal. The figure of Fjörgyn is intriguing. I’m curious about him/her being bound at the foot? Lower leg? Perhaps a connection to Achilles or Hephaestus? Injuries/handicaps were common aspects of many Near Eastern myths (not just Greek ones). Also your side comment about Mars Thincsus/Thingsus really got the juices flowing, especially after you mentioned “assembly”. Since the beginning of measured history and beyond, Caucasians have used godekans as assemblages to watch stars, make decisions, and perform ceremonies ( Swedish Thing, right?). The origin of the Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, et al “ting” is from a reconstructed Proto-Germanic neuter pinga, which is close to the Dagestani Kim/Gim/ Gimga-Godekan. Same meaning in both cases. As I’ve said before but can perfectly understand that you must create what viewers are interested in: it would be time that you showed the Caucasus some love. That being said, love your videos. How bout one dealing with the parallels of the Norse Pantheon with the one in Indian mythologies? The similarities are striking and both even have cosmic war variations.
Thank you for watching, and looking at the Indic pantheons is something I'm researching right now, but there is a issue I'm trying to overcome that I cannot find any research on. So once I have tackled that, and found an answer to my question, I'll be ready to go ahead. Thanks for taking the time to comment, it is really appreciated.
@@Crecganford Thank YOU for great, serious content. To your comment: there's a guy on Academia who posted a wonderful comparison between the two-it's eerie how similar many of the deities are, even those as far away from India as Iceland. If you'd like a link let me know and I'll dig it out for you...
I have seen a video that stated Tyr was the chef god of some southern Germanic tribes, but Wotan/Odin was also worshipped. The whole of the Germanic people worshipped the same gods, maybe by slightly different names and rituals, but basically the same faith. To say only focus on the Norse/Scandinavian groups narrows the viewpoint.
I think this got a tad bit rambly in the end, but the details put forth are a very good summary of what we're dealing with. The analogy of a crime scene with scattered clues is a good one. I think everyone needs to understand how quickly mythology within an oral culture can change, how many different influences there are and just how long a timespan we're talking about. Let alone how geographically widespread an area we're dealing with, and how much different parts of Norse/Germanic culture would have changed from place to place. One also needs to understand just how poorly sourced Norse Mythology really is. We really don't know how well the writings of people like Snorri hits the mark. What we like to imagine we know about Norse Mythology can't compare with the surprisingly good sources we have for Indian, Iranian and Greco-Roman cultures. We really also have way too few datapoints all together to say with any sort of scientific certainty that religions develop following a certain pattern. In sum, trying to put together a coherent narrative here is complete folly but it's fun to speculate. My "feeling" is Odin is a uniquely Germanic invention, he might've developed within the early Proto-Germanic culture, or he might stem from an earlier Pre-Germanic deity that was absorbed into the pantheon. I see cases for both Thor and Tyr being related to Dyeus but certainly not as directly as with Zeus and Jupiter. Though I will say our perception of Dyeus might be too influenced by the image invoked by Zeus and Jupiter. Remember how little we actually know about Dyeus. Just something to keep in mind. Thor "might" trace his lineage back to Dyeus since they share some characteristics, but I think there's a considerably stronger case for him being related to Perkwunos. When it comes to Tyr his name obviously comes from Dyeus and he clearly used to be more important in the early Germanic faith. Him losing his hand might symbolize his "demotion" in the pantheon. It's a neat and tempting narrative. But there might be confirmation bias here. He shares very few characteristics with Dyeus after all. There could be all kinds of reasons why Tyr ended up with his name. It simply means "God" after all. I think it's important to remember Indo European Gods used to have several names and epithets. Sometimes the epithets would replace their original names etc. The names of some of these Gods might've went through several iterations over the millennia, making their etymological lineages very hard to trace clearly in an oral tradition like Germanic/Norse. Either Tyr developed from Dyeus and his role drastically changed over time, or he is a separate deity that just happened to end up with his name. Both are possible, yet impossible to prove.
@@Astavyastataa I think you misunderstand me. I don't think Odin is particularly special. I just don't think he's as directly related to PIE deities as are for instance Thor and Tyr or Zeus and Jupiter. But what do I know. The whole point of my comment was to hammer home how difficult it actually is to trace the development of Norse mythology as compared with the way more well documented Greco-Roman and Indo-Iranian mythologies.
One weird thing I’d like to point out. Nuada one of the old Celtic specifically Irish deities also lost one of his hands in the Irish book of invasions and it was replaced with a silver one. He was the first king of the Irish gods until him losing an arm had him removed from power. Pretty neat coincidence Edit: had the name wrong at girdt
I leave my comment for record, though few are currently interested in my thoughts. Odin is All Father. Two forms. One passive, that wills Thor into being, who then also brings Loki into being, so that Thor can take on the active role of Odin. Odin 1.0 becomes philosophical because he has to spend many years being ignored by everyone in this faithless world, so he develops a very stoic personality. Thor is more driven, and does not become so stoic so easily, besides which, Odin has spent years loosening the lid of the jar, so to say, so Thor is determined that he will reveal to everyone that they are the gods, rather than the humans they previously believed themselves to be. Those three are primary active elements, though Loki just sort of does his own thing, and Odin, is essentially passive. Freyja, is still lost in Vanir delusion up in Iceland, basically held by Odr, such is my opinion. All is done under the guidance of Frigg, the supreme power. Tyr, I identify as someone I have not seen for maybe 6 years, though I used to know him well in the last century. He is bold and courageous, and he is up to his neck in all of this, but he is not one of the main instigators of change.
the story of how tyr lost his right hand reminds me today how people still swear oaths, salute, and shake hands with their right hands, which also was considered the "clean" hand. this along with him presiding over the thing reminds me most of the zoroastrian mithra or vedic mitra, who (wikipedia tells me) is associated with the sun (echoes of the sky father) and truth, justice, oaths, contracts, etc. perhaps not so coincidentally the mithraic mysteries, though their mithras was somewhat different, later on were practiced primarily by roman soldiers. this connection would probably be more obvious long ago when wars were often justified for reasons of justice and honor, and the dealing of justice often more approached the waging of war on injustice than the legalistic institutions of today.
I was interested to hear your take on the symbolism of different types of injuries and their meanings in mythology. The patron saint of Suffolk was also a king and he had his head chopped off by the Danes. This was later found being guarded by a wolf
@@Crecganford Fingers crossed! I think that would go very well. You both are awesome and make learning fun. The subject is already very interesting but you guys give it an extra spark!
What an awesome video! New subscriber to your channel, I'll be watching every video I can... Thanks for sharing all of this knowledge, sir! Question... the spanish the word for God is Dios... Is it also a variation of Tyr? Greetings all the way from Lima, Perú!
@@Crecganford you seem to be one of the few people talking about the Indo Europeans, most people talk about the Israelites who did nothing and boast about everything, whereas these people conquered the world.
28:27 Interesting side-fact: in Norwegian, the word Tyr is also a noun for a fully grown, horned bull in its prime. Do you have any thoughts about possible connections to the god Tyr, that is in cult practice or mythology?
I think Tyr is handless for a reason. He was a mighty warrior god but cannot carry a weapon anymore, so he is dependent on diplomacy, promises, and treaties with others. Of which he was the overseer/god. Yet he is very much respected by the other gods for his bravery and sacrifice. Diplomacy, laws, treaties, and promises are important to survive (Tyr). In times of war or raiding (or a more militarized culture) power is more important (Thor). Wisdom is the thing that rules both because it can lead to either ruin or victory (Odin). Luck is very important as well, and bad luck or accidents can screw you up no matter how good you prepare (Loki). However, luck is not something human or something you can get skilled in. Therefore Loki is partly the child of a more primitive nature power (a giant). The humans/gods are constantly trying to overcome these nature powers (giants) with power, knowledge, cleverness, and tribes working together. But in the end, these nature powers will always win and cause a clean slate on whatever scale. Surtr is a comet or volcano. The midgard serpent is a flood/tsunami. Fenrir is an earthquake. Ice giants are extreme cold periods, fire giants are extreme warm periods, that hellhound is like unleashed death because people will be massively dying etc. That is why in Ragnarok the earth gets wiped, yet after it is wiped, there is no mention about all those giants and things etc anymore. Like they poofed away. But it's just that the natural disasters ran their course and now it begins all over again.
Yes, that's a good view on what it could mean, but it is on the basis that Tyr always had one hand... and I'm not sure we can prove whether that is true or not. But I will see if I can find more evidence to support this either way. Thank you for watching :)
An interesting take on the subject with some good points. I believe Tyr represents honour and the sacrifices one must make to preserve it. Tyr places his hand in Fenrir's mouth and gives Oath to the Wolf knowing that the Aesir plan to use trickery to chain him. Tyr sacrifices his hand not only for the greater good of the Aesir (his family ) but also because he will not break an Oath as this would be dishonorable. In this way when I make offering to the Gods I ask Woden to be the wisdom with which I lead my family, Thunor to be the strength with which I defend them and Tiw be the sacrifices I make to protect our honour.
I read his story with losing a hand that he was justice in the society, and put his hand in fenrirs mouth as a way to support peace in society through justice. Fenrir being a beast inside the society if that makes any sense
Congrats for the video!! Just knowing the channel right now. i always thought weird that fenrir revenged over odin and not tyr in ragnarok. This makes me think that there are characters changing roles here. What do you think? And the Image of a sky god having both the moon and the sun on each Hand is familiar to me. This could connect tyr, fenrir, a sky god and ragnarok… does it make any sense?
Don't forget Fenrir was actually an alternative name for Loki, and so first we need to understand if it was Loki attacking Odin, or his child, the wolf? Now whilst it reads as the wolf now, perhaps in an earlier myth it was different. What I'm trying to say though, is that it is complicated, very complicated.
It depends on who is speaking in which dialect of which language. A modern English man would pronounce these differently to a Scandinavian man from 1,000 years ago.
I think these stories are talking about events going on, in the Last iceage, or at its end, Aesir and Vanir describing stepp peoples and old European peoples. Odin's parents survived the Great Flood and gave birth to him, later Ragnorok is describing the Yonger Dryas, Fenris is the representation of cold (the yonger dryas is a mini iceage) Tyr lost his hand to the cold, too the wolf
@@Crecganford many "Gods" are ancient kings and Queens or chieftains... Egyptian texts even say Isis and Osiris and others physically lived in Egypt and ruled Egypt as pharaohs durring Zep tepi(a mythic golden age or era) Like maybe in 9000 BC some warrior was actually made by a king to clean his stable and eventually long after the fact people called this man Hercules? ( stepp peoples considering horses are part of the story? )
Freya was the most popularly worshipped god/goddess of the Norse pantheon. She was worshipped as the Sun in a similar manner to the Greek god, Apollo. She was worshipped at the beginning of spring and was also worshipped as the goddess of fertility. This was erased by Christians and they put Easter over her holiday. The Greeks most popularly worshipped Athena and the Gailic people worshipped Bridget as a red haired sun goddess who otherwise is very similar to Freya. Bridget was so popular that she was kept as a saint by the Catholics because they wouldn't stop worshipping her even when they were killed for it.
A suggestion; make guided meditation videos. Nothing too extreme, more along the lines of therapeutic meditations rather than the deep spiritual 'epiphanic' ones... (they can get really weird...) You have a good voice for it. Along the lines of Michael Sealey's guided meditations on YT.
Alas I find it difficult to meditate as my mind works 24x7 and I just can't stop thinking. I have tried many things, from mountain climbing to long walks, to audio coaching, and aromatherapy, but I just can't stop thinking enough to allow myself to meditate :(
@@Crecganford Not everyone is able to unfortunately. I understand to a certain degree, which is why I like listening to the type of content you make. It's an escape from the practical, so thank you for your work. :)
Hello, you mention Dyews ph ter about 4.55 min into this video as proto indo Euro sky god. This sounds like Zarathustra. Just wondering if there would be a significant link. My Zoroastrianism isn't the greatest atm. This is more something that made me think about connections rather than a question about this video topic. I have been searching for everything your videos are discussing my whole life. So amazing. Everything I have learned is fitting into place much better. Your channel is wonderful. Best Regards, Jonathan
Hi, thank you for watching and asking the question. They're not cognate, in fact Zarathustra is something to do with old camels, I mention it in my Ferryman video if that helps :)
I am TYR and it's interesting hearing you say these things was different back then didn't happen this way I still have my arm and I tumbled down a mountain when the the wolf attacked in the snow it broke its neck when we fell but it never let go of my arm on the way down
The place I first read that Tyr was the Sky Father and cognate to Deus was in the books of Edred Thorsson/Stephen Flowers. I feel a bit foolish because Flowers was my main source of runic and Norse magic. But, I didn't realize until relatively recently that he was Left-Hand Path and it influenced his works heavily. I actually don't mind, I just wish I had caught it earlier. I know that has nothing to do with the Tyr argument.
Tyr is often thought to corellate with the Irish Nuada because both lost their hand. Nuada lost his hand fighting a warrior named Sreang, meaning 'cord, wire, chain'; Tyr lost his during the binding of Fenrir. The Romano-British equivalent of Nuada, Nodens was also identified with Mars. The Goths hung the arms of sacrifices in trees in honour of their war god; the Scythians also cut the arms of victims as a sacrifice to their war god too, who they worshipped in the form of a sword. Nuada had a sword that could cut through anything. When Fenrir was bound a sword was thrust into his jaws to hold them open until Ragnarok.
Interesting Nuada Silverarm was king of the tribe of Danu, is often considered a war god, despite only fighting two wars. One against "The Farmers" and one against "The Greedy" (who come from the sea) but still a missing arm war god sort of.
Very interesting discussion, thank you. I'm wondering if there is a connection between the Nordic myths and the Irish Tuatha de Danaan? As I recall Nuada lost his hand in a battle with the FirBolg and so lost his kingship as a ruler had to be unblemished. But a silver one was fashioned and so he reclaimed his position as Nuada Airgetlam. As Tyr lost his hand, would the same stipulation apply, that is in order to be a war god, he had to be physically whole? But when he lost his hand, he was demoted to a lesser status? Nuada is a cognate of the British Nodens who was equated with the Roman Mars and who also lost a hand. What is the symbolism behind losing a hand and losing status? Any ideas?
Yes, without doubt, this symbolism is certainly an early Indo-European motif, as it links to the Proto Indo-European Creation myth. I have a video on this, and on How to Build the World, and also an interview touching on the British Creation Myth with Jon Mason where we also touch on this. Thanks for watching and I hope you find time to watch those videos.
It's very interesting that we are still having a Tyr's day in Alemannic German. In Switzerland we are calling Tuesday Zistig, which literally means Zio's Day. We are also having a day for Thor, Donstig, Day of the Thunder and one for Frigg, Fritig, but we are not having a day for Odin. For me it feels like Odin was to strange to people as he seems to be a very 'shamanic' kind of God and not that easy relatable to as Tyr with his role as a protector of the Thing and law and order and Thor as a God of War or even Frigg as the God Mother
That is interesting, Odin is a complex god with a complex history, although we do have attestations of Woden from that area, certainly via stories of the Wild Hunt. But he was considered more of a spirit at this point as opposed to a personified god like Tyr (Zio) or Thor (Thunoraz).
Yes, you have the IE linguistically stuff that is not really disputed. There are more than a few references to Tyr as a sky god. Let’s first go with the Anglo-Frisian poem that literally associated him with a star. This should be obvious with Deva/Tiwaz as cognate and Deva is a shining blissful god. Perkunos/Fjörgynn is altogether different. Tyr was the original sky god from soooo long before even the Germanic language existed as a unique tongue. We should note that Dyaus is the true Indian cognate for Tyr/Zeus//Jupiter/Zio, and his fate explains a Eurasian (Pre-IE) mythological theme. Indra pulled Dyaus from his throne by his Achilles heel, usurping his father’s place. The same happened in the Chinese Bagua where Thunder, the first son, usurped his fathers throne, and since he was associated with green wood and Spring growth, he was called “Jade Emperor.” This was Thor, being the most praised god in the Viking age and possibly the pre-Viking age too, which is why the Romans mis-associated Týr with Mars and Thor with Jupiter, later influencing Chinese medicine (highly influenced by Greco-Indian philosophy) where Thunder/Jade Emperor is associated with the planet Jupiter. Heaven is called Tian/T’ien in Chinese, as Tengri is the Siberian/Steppe version. There he’s said to have multiple forms, “like 5 fingers make 1 fist.” This clearly brings us to Tyr’s hand, because Tengri was also the wide blue sky god with the wolf sacred to him! The wolf pack was the war band, which brings us to the nomadic era of pre-bronze age religion where temples housed priest kings before palaces housed warrior kings. Tyr is the priest king…yet, Thor is the warrior king…so how did Óðinn become all father? The early temple complexes that began urbanization cultivated the first substantial trade routes that needed protection to keep the temples functional. Therefore, Like Tyr (similar to Tengri) raised the wolf pup, Sumerian priest kings (also using the title/symbol Dingir) trained warriors to guard their trade goods from bandits, which brought the agriculturalists and herdsmen to work out a deal of mutual support. This deal went sour and gave rise to Zarathustra’s prophecy of Ahura Mazda (“Spirit Great”). Yet, Dingir also had a different sound used in the middle of a sentence rather than as a symbolic note at the beginning of a divine name or priest name. This sound was “An”!!!! Yes, Ansuz, The As, Óðinn…but also Sumerian An…the head god! Then we have Snorri, who modern heathens highly misread due to contempt for the superficial appearances of Christianity when it’s truly classical philosophy influencing both Heathen AND Christian philosophy. He clearly described with traditional style of history in his prologue to Gylfágínning (itself badly translated and should be “Gylfi’s Beginning”), how Óðinn set up priests in Europe, called Díar (plural), or Dí (singular). This was coupled with his sons set up to be kings, like those in “Troy,” which we now call Turkey.” He said they originally had 12 cities to 12 gods, with 12 languages…like the 12 tribes in Judaism from Hellenic influence…also 12 disciples. However, the Etruscans ALSO had 12 cities and languages in a loose confederate league. Even more so, they became the Cherusci after Roman’s conquered them, referring to their liver divination rather than their own self-identified name. They even called their gods “Æsir!” Then when we see the traditional founder of Chinese Medicine is the Yellow Emperor we have more to analyze. As Thunder was wood/green/Jade, Rock is the 3rd son associated with earth’s fecundity and healing…or Vanir stuff, like Ishvara’s/Frey’s rock lingum (according to Snorri it was Frey’s first tooth breaking the gums like the rising Scandinavian undersea basin). and Freya being Vánadís (disir being feminine priestesses), mistress of healing. Óðr is to Óðinn As Hugr is to Huginn Hugr is “Mind” and Huginn (“Thought”) is 1-Eye’s raven. Therefore, one is the action of the faculty that is the other. Óðr means “Sense” which makes Óðinn “Sensation” (generalized as Sentience), or the action taken by the faculty of the senses. If you cannot sense something, does it exist? To your mind, it’s only a fantasy without sentient validation. Therefore, he is All Father. There’s more depth, yet. Týr and Óðinn are said to have competed for rulership, which takes some work to unravel. It all truly goes back to Sumerian Dingir, which like Tyr is not only the sky god associated with the Star, but is the generic term for divinity placed before the “proper” name particular to that god/goddess. As you can see, Dingir directly becomes Tengri. However, the symbol is the 8 spoked wheel star symbol in the cuneiform style. The tool used to make the marks in Sumerian had a wide end and thin end. The left 4 were the wide part while the right f4 were the thin parts, corresponding perfectly to the yang (solid) and yin (broken) sides of the Bagua…lowest lines in the trigrams. Dingir is pronounced “Thingir” like Thingus (a southern version for Tyr) or Thingi since the Icelandic rune poem associated Tyr with the Thing as government meeting. He is the “father Deva” so to say, but as a generalized divine symbol, the Holy Spirit (or “An” as in the middle of a Sumerian name) became more powerful. The Father is high and away, but the spirit has Avatars on Earth, like Vishnu (“Pervader”) in India. The Corpse/Shiva is “the Earth, void and formless) in Genesis 1:1 while Vishnu is the Ruach, “hovering over the deep” in 1:2. Brahmā is B’reishit, “In the beginning” as the first word of the Torah. They turn the images of the Torah with a wand of God’s finger…Tyrfingr, “a certain sword which they used as a mouth prop” which is the Gothic Excalibur of sword mysticism. So the challenge is…Do we praise God, the Father, or the Holy Spirit as most powerful leader of the gods? Well.. that’s when we get to Freyr and the Living god…the living word/logos that can thus be killed/sacrificed and eaten like Bacchus (Bromios=B’reishit/Brahmā). The Lord (Freyr) fell in lust/live with his garden creation (Gerðr) who only cowered to his advances when threatened with insatiable lust (which makes a garden die with over production). Sooooo…although you’re not wrong, there’s so much more that’s lacking in traditional Heathen analyses, being too IE focused. I hope this helps. 🙏
I forgot that Thor is actually Mars…He has a red beard! Marduk is Mars and obviously Thunder hero. You mention Ymir, who is actually Water, the 2nd son and Black Emperor in the Bagua. His legend sired Kongfutzu (Confucius), a gathering mist around the woman to impregnate her. This brings us to the immaculate conception theme, following Fuxi who found the Bagua. He was conceived as his mother was a shamaness who called a giant spirit from Thunder-Lake Mountain. He left essence (soul) in his footprint (like Thor’s on the bottom of the ocean when he hooked Jörmundgandr). This theme continues as Zarathustra would be born to a virgin who bathed in a sacred mountain lake in Afghanistan. Of course, the Christ thing came out again that we are all familiar with.
Or maybe Tyr is like a variable mantle like figure, like Hecate's three avtars or Parvati's three avtars ( actually parvati has 90-108 forms but 3 are the most famous ones). It possible could also mean Odin, Thor and Tyr simultaneously.
It also bears worth stating that the head of the pantheon would not necessarily _have_ to be a sky and/or storm god. It is possible that the/a war god was regarded as the head of the pantheon to some peoples in some times. Tyr may also have a cognate in the Gaelic Nuada Airgetlam-who _was_ the king of the Tuatha de Dannan, until he lost his hand.
I wionder whether Odin's position as chief of the pantheon arise first, and then his popularity amount elites in Norse society came later, or if he first started to gain prominence among elites, and so poets (working for the elites) started making him more prominent, eventually leading him to be the the chief of the pantheon. I can imagine either being true.
Well we know Woden was a chief god of the Germanic tribes around 2,000 years ago, and so it would make sense if Odin came into the Nordic pantheon in this position as well.
If you do more videos You may wish to clarify it re: the Proto-Germanic deity Tiwaz as well. My understanding is next to nothing..but I gather he may have been an arch-type for Odin, Thor, and Tyr. I don't know. I've read different stuff. It's confusing and complicated and I haven't read anything in like 40 years... So... I've forgotten pretty much everything.
Tiwaz is almost certainty the predecessor to Tyr, as opposed to Wodanaz who proceeded Wodan (and so Odin). There isn't too much we can say with confidence about these gods at this time, but I do occasionally make videos on them so keep watching the channel. There are new videos every couple of weeks.
Well... Reason I asked... Is that there seems to have been a deity of same name...Tiwaz...from Anatolia in Asia Minor...maybe a Hittite ( or related group ) deity. And the Gaelic tribes had a clear split.. where some were in Europe and some were in Asia Minor....and I know there is some blending/evolution of Gaelic deities and Germanic deities. Sadly...my college days few..long ago.. and never finished...and I was never able to get Degrees in Anthropology and Archaeology and comparative cultures that I enjoyed to study as a kid Now at 59... I have only my crazy theories. And while my childhood theories from the 1970s were ridiculed by teachers in High School... As time has progressed...and we gain ever more knowledge... My theories are being proven correct (Vindication!)... But mythology...is whole different can of worms...and I have not really focused on it as much as Anthropology over these many years.
Tyr losing his hand being representative of him losing his kingly power reminds me of how the celtic god Nuada lost his right to be the king of the gods after losing his arm only to then be replaced by Lugh.
I believe the etymology for the most part is correct, however, I believe the source to be Tuecer, the king of Troy. In the Iliad ("Ode to Ili"), Troy was also known as Ili. Tuecer had a daughter named Batea who married Dardanus, the ruler of the nearby island of Samothrace. The Dardanelles, not far from Samothrace, was named after Dardanus. Dardanus and Batea founded the Royal House of Troy. The citizens of Troy referred themselves as either Tucrians (Latin: Tuetones) or Dardanians (Danes?). In the ancient world the Iliad was considered sacred history.
@@Crecganford All I'm suggesting is that Tiw/Tue is the closest to the source - sorry I wasn't more clear, I have a bad habit of digressing. I've just been introduced to your channel and am looking forward to watching your uploads.
Teucrians is what you mean, and is not related to Teutones in the least. The Danes were called Cimbrians in Antiquity for the Jutland paeninsula was called Chersonessus Cimbricus. For your information.
If there's a connection with Tyre, Thor and Tarhunta of ancient hittite records then you'll have some sort of evidence for some BCE references. I love your videos!!!!
@@ptrpst the name terhunt comes from Proto-Anatolian *Tṛḫu-ent-,"conquering"; ultimately from PIE *terh₂-, "to cross over, pass through, overcome" and is related to Hittite verb tarḫu-zi, "to prevail, conquer, be powerful, be able, defeat"; And thus unrelated to the name thor which instead comes from Proto-Indo-European word for 'thunder' *(s)tenh₂-, and is cognate in the Celtic thunder god Taranis (from an earlier *Tonaros) and a epithet for Vedic god indra तनयित्नु (tanayitnú literally 'Thunderer')
Unless I'm wrong (possible) didn't the ancient Germanic tribes have a very loose sense of kingship with very little centralized authority? Might this have influenced the way they viewed who was "in charge" of the pantheon?
Yes, some tribes didn’t have kings during points in their existence, and this almost certainly influenced their pantheons. Thanks for watching and commenting.
As for the idea of Tyr being a predecessor of Odin as head god, I think there's a precedent with Uranus/Cronos being the original chief god in the Greek & Roman pantheons instead of Zeus/Jupiter. I frequently suspect that prior to the Indo European invasion, there was a major widespread culture in what is now Eurasia (or further) with its own religion that fractured among all the various cultures that eventually formed the European peoples, into the various pantheons (as well as languages etc). I think that may also account for commonalities across Eurasia (and maybe beyond) such as stone monuments, pyramids, etc. The idea of a lost ancient primal culture always interested me.
I read an article once that claimed the norse could've worshipped a deity that was similar to the PIE sky-god Dieus Pter, and that said deity was above Odin in hierarchy, unfortunately i couldn't find this article again, do you have any info on that?
Not directly, but as I suggest there is very little linkage with PIE god names in the Nordic area, which is why their pantheon is shaped somewhat differently to the other IEs. But I will try and find an article or two on this and make a video if it is of interest.
I want to hear more! I find a similar dynamic between Tyr/ Nuada, Thor/Lugh, Odin/ The Dagda weird blendedness in a purely speculative way. Did you ever make an Odin Tyr video?
Do you want to hear more about Tyr, or Odin, or Thor?
Would like to learn about Tyr's relation to the "'Thing" "Ding" and German place names, please.
Tyr definatly, coz there is so little I know about the hero who was the one brave enough to put his hand in the mouth of Fenris, when the gods wanted to put a leece on him...
@@WasOne2 Yes, I can do that :)
@@WasOne2 Yeah, why is Tyr known as a god of law and justice? Could that be an echo of his role as a more important God?
Tyr, since he's kinda underrated in the Norse Pantheon.
I cannot believe I live in a time when this level of scholarship is shared for free on a format that I can just consume without end. I have no background on Norse mythology, so I need to take the information you give at face value, but slowly a picture is building up and it is astounding to see that I can actually learn meaningful things about Norse mythology thanks to you.
I learned so much from your channel. Thanks so much Jon.
And thank you for your kind words and for watching. The reason it is here is because my University changed how it taught students due to the pandemic, and I felt I wanted to provide a platform to share my knowledge with a wider audience, to give all students a better chance at understanding these things. It really does make me feel happy when I hear they have learned something through watching this material, and it is also why I try to read all the comments and answer as many questions as I can. Just making the world a little better :)
@@Crecganford Yes, thank you very much for your scholarship & generosity of spirit in sharing Knowledge!
An interesting parallel that appears in Irish mythology is Nuada who also is deposed from the position of high god after losing a hand
Yes, he absolutely parallels this for these reasons. Thank you for watching.
@@Crecganford do we know about the linguistic evolution of "Sky-Father" in Celtic? Is there any more reason to compare Nuada to Tyr, or only based on themes?
Jon, I have only recently 'discovered' your excellent videos and have since been binge watching them. I found this one particularly interesting, there is a lot of 'food for thought'. No questions from me at the moment (I'm still digesting everything from this video), but I did want to say thank you for the effort you are putting into this channel. The information is superb and the way that it is delivered is incredibly engaging. Please keep the videos coming :-)
Thank you Toby, for watching, and your kind words. And if you do have questions or want to see a video on a particular topic let me know.
I knew about the linguistic connection between Tyr and Deus, but I'd never even heard of the connection between Fjoergyn and Perkunas.
Thank you for this vid. Your knowledge of this subject is extremely impressive. Subbed.
What a wonderful channel I've discovered. I'm truly very glad I came across it.
Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to leave a comment.
In this conversation about Indo-European Sky/Storm Gods, I was anticipating some mention of the Vedic king of the gods, Indra.
Whenever the gods assemble to fight the asuras, he is their commander in chief.
He is certainly a storm god. He rides a wild 7-headed winged stallion named Uchchaihshravas and wields the celestial weapon Vajra, the thunderbolt.
His personality is very much similar to Zeus and Jupiter (much more so than to Thor).
Any linguistic connection between Indra's name to Zeus or Jupiter, or Thor, or Tyr certainly isn't obvious (to me at least).
Come to think of it, he is also called Devesh, or Devaraj (lord or king of the gods).
Heh heh... there you go....
That's because "Indra" (Lord) is a title, with many proposed etymologies, amongst them "hero" or "igniter", for his ability to bring light and power (indriya) that ignites the vital forces of life (prana).
The cognate of Tyr would just be generic "deva" as said in this video.
I admit that my favor for Tyr comes from his appearance in Forgotten Realms as the god of Paladins, but my small amount of research does lead me to believe that Tyr was the original leader of the Germanic/Norse pantheon. It has been pointed out by experts that Tyr's loss of his hand was the only way to subjugate Fenrir while maintaining the legitimacy of the gods. As the honorable and just god of law and combat (which would likely have been directly connected to justice) only Tyr could make that binding promise and fulfill it.
We have so little data on earlier Germanic and Norse beliefs. Early Roman reports varyingly describe worship of a war god or a magic god. So, Tyr may have been the early war god, or this role may have shifted to Odin or Thor by that point. The magic god was certainly Odin. Later, there may have been mention of Odin as a war leader worshipped by an apocalyptic cult, the god that would lead the other gods in Ragnarok. As I understand it, Odin wasn't so much a warrior god as a god who might help you win a battle, a god of clever tricks ans deception, perhaps one willing to win a battle using less honorable means, but to win. And I seem to recall a certain value of Viking Age Norse on cleverness and tricks in winning with less focus on standing up to honorable one-one-one combat. It's entirely possible that the war god mentioned by one report may have been about a different one than a report earlier on.
Thank you so much for watching, and for taking the time to comment such a great reply. I agree that I would love to know more but the information is limited, and that is such a shame.
Yo this is a was a Good response. Hailsa kinsman
Nothing wrong with that. You've got to get introduced somehow. I loved the Forgotten Realms pantheon. Actually, I love all Dungeons and Dragons pantheons. I've played Dungeons and Dragons for as long as I can remember. I was raised on it. It actually came out the year I was born.
Its interesting also that the rest of the gods laughed when Fenrir was chained but Tyr had formed a mutual respect with the wolf and kept his honor.
I beleive Tir to be among the old Vanir tribe/pantheon vith basis in fertility (and war)... Odin was brought to Scandinavia by the germanic mercenaries (Auxilleries) during the migration period, or probably before... A lot of roman influence flow in a steady stream into the whole of Scandinavia... There is a "war" between the Aesir and the Vanir - a "war" on beleif and the pantheon... The oldest willage names in eg. Denmark have the ending: -ING (Ingvi / Frey) are are from the first centyry = supporting the Vanir idea... Odin suited the "kings" and during the Younger Germanic Iron Age, Vendel Period, Merowingian Era we see the scandinavian societies transforming from "tribe" to "state - and lay the foundation to the viking era... Just the headlines as my english is not so good and explaining the ideas in writing would take me forever... I especially like this video and I follow and beleive I understand your conclusions... I will begin to re-watch your videos... Thanks... ,-)
Thank you for taking the time to write such a great comment with good ideas. And I shall look into these thoughts. Thank you :)
Thats an excellent appraisal and one i concur with. Explains his lost hand as why he is no longer male head of an equality based agricultural fertility pantheon such as the Vanir were.
@@Crecganford I tend to think that Tyr came first and is a bronze age guy along with Freyr/Freya, Thor came with the iron and the hammering of it and Odin/Wotan came as a traveler, he is so different from all of them that he appears to be from another pantheon. And that begets a question: Why did Odin take to the road - from where? - what had he done? - and thus arrive in this context?
@@digilydhow could Odín be a foreigner when he is clearly like Rudra, for example?
@@Astavyastataa I couldn't remember Rudra from my time in school, where we learn about the old Norse culture, so I asked Mr. Google. He found an explanation on Wikipedia:
Rudra - Wikipedia
Rudra (/ ˈ r ʊ d r ə /; Sanskrit: रुद्र) is a Rigvedic deity associated with Shiva, the wind or storms, Vayu, medicine, and the hunt. One translation of the name is 'the roarer'. In the Rigveda, Rudra is praised as the "mightiest of the mighty". Rudra means "who eradicates problems from their roots".
Your etymology of the name Tyr is very interesting. With just this one name, the connections between all the languages that developed from the Indo-European language is clearly demonstrated. The names of the gods that developed through this one name are all very recognizable to students of mythology, which helps make these connections become clear.
*Deywos> Tiwaz>Tiw.
Zeus>Tyr/Ziu/Tiu >Tiusday>tuesday
Tiw is Celtic I think.
@Ivan The Terrible there was no need for "copying" . Celtic,Greek, germanic and Roman paganism are historically connected same as to vedic/sanskrit and old Persian mythology .
@Ivan The Terrible sure you can see the deep connection latest since the Jastorf-Kultur where celtic and elb germanic cultures mixed but even before in the Aunjetitzer culture there are similarities in the celtic and germanic Hügelgräber. There is a continuity since ~ 1000 v.u.z.
Absolutely an excellent explanation!
Thank you
Also, Tyr's association with justice and honor (though flawed by the Fenrir incident) could cause one to link him with Zeus/Jupiter. Your presentation is thoughtful and well done as always. I value the fact that you present multiple views on subjects. Everything is usually more complicated than at first appearance, especially when God's are involved.
I was going to add this as well. I have always had more the understanding of him as the god of law, order and justice, with war being more secondary (several different gods in the Norse pantheon can be linked to war, really). This would of course hint to an original Sky Father role, the one who holds balance and order. (Which Odin later may have "usurped", especially looking at the video talking about "Allfather" actually being about keeping order, not father at all.)
This video was very enlightening, I've been trying to answer this question myself for a long time, as a follower of Tyr and wanting to get his story right. It's very unfortunate we don't have much surviving texts at all from the periods you covered (my understanding that it's mostly been oral with little written down texts but I could be wrong), but your shot in the dark theory I agree with!
Brilliant video you have an amazing ability for storytelling! I have ADHD and struggle to focus on videos especially when they dont have visual aids to keep me busy but i havent struggled with a single video of yours 👍really great work
Thank you so much for watching, and for your very kind words. They really are appreciated.
Dear god, is there anything this man doesn’t know?! He’s so relatable, but also has extensive multi-specialty knowledge and is able to connect the dots. I’m so grateful for this source of brain joy! 💕🐝💕🇺🇸
Thank you for your kind words. My knowledge is broad, but not necessarily as in-depth as I would sometimes like it to be.
@@Crecganford I see charts and lists and trees and my nerdy brain is happy! 💕🐝💕
Dear God???which one??
One of the best channels on RUclips.
Thank you for your kind words, they are really appreciated.
The Tyr/Odin duality also works if we consider a popular sociopolitical structure amongst ancient cultures, the dual chiefdom. Wherein one god/lord is assigned to peace-time matters (Odin), and the other is in charge during war (Tyr).
Very intelligent, very good video. Enjoyed it a great deal. Definitely subscribing my friend. Takes a true Drengr to answer the tough questions.
Another excellent informative video John.keep em coming.
Cheers Hengist!
Excellent. Enjoyed your recent talk in person. It was much appreciated.
It was an honour to attend, and thank you. Please, if you have any questions let me know.
@@Crecganford Thank you. Will do. My eldest lad watched this vid and enjoyed it.
Regarding the evolution of the Old Norse pantheon and the three main groups within it, Jotnar, Vanir and Æsir. Could this possbly reflect three different cultures and the interaction between them? Possibly the Pitted Ware, the Funnelbeaker and the Corded Ware cultures?
The Funnelbeaker culture, being a farming culture would have use of fertility gods, such as the Vanir Frøy and Frøya. As they are considered to have replaced the maritime Ertebølle culture, this could also point towards the maritime sea god Njord.
The Corded Ware culture arriving later and presumably being more aggressive and warlike could then fit with the Æsir and their focus on heroism, might and death. The conflict between the Vanir and Æsir could very well reflect on real initial conflict between the two cultures, and the merging of Vanir and Æsir into one pantheon the merging of two cultures.
The Pitted Ware culture, being hunter gatherers, could fit with the Jotnar being perceived as quite different from Vanir and Æsir. Different in their way of life, yet seemingly of the same kind of beings.
Then the mingling of these three groups into the Boat-axe culture, with adaption of their beliefs and deities into the Old Norse pantheon throughout the Nordic Bronze age.
There is certainly some support for that, and in fact my next video touches on who the jotnar really were. So I hope you watch that too. Thank you for your comment, it was very much appreciated.
How would that be possible if vanir and jotnar have clear parallels in Hinduism and other IE religious traditions?
I absolutely LOVE your channel!
Thank you!
Very insightful and interesting video, thanks for sharing your knowledge
Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment
Thank you for the awesome vids!!! Learn a lot!
Wow. You've just corroborated my conclusion over the god Tyr. As a sky god, Tyr MUST have had some kind of cosmic weapon, just like the thunderbolts of Zeus or Taranis, or indeed the hammer of Thor or the middle eastern sky god whose name escapes me. But we know that his hand (which one!) was removed by Fenrir, thus rendering his weapon (presumably it was his right hand that was removed) impotent. And as you point out, Odin was not a sky god but a god centred around ancestry and Kingship, and so the role of the sky god in the Aesir was taken by Thor (Thunnor ("thunder"). So it begs the question, did Mjollnir once belong, not to Thunnor, but to TYR, as the original sky deity? I believe it may well have been the case.
Also I believe it was Bede who pointed out that Odin was originally NOT a god, but a DEIFIED KING. Hence the genealogies of some of the Kings of the heptarchies tracing their ancestry back to Woden (Odin). This would then make sense of the three gods of Norse mythology, who would appear to jostle for place as the Sky Father - Tyr was the ORIGINAL Sky Father ("The Allfather"), who was "emasculated" by his dealings with Fenrir, to then allow the NEW "Sky Father" Thunnor to take his place. In a similar manner (although by no means an exact parallel) to Cronos being emasculated by Zeus, who henceforth took his place. This leaves Odin, who was "the most powerful" of Norse gods but not because he had attained the level of Sky Father, but because he was a personification of worldly monarchy, and therefore wielded power over the gods as their "King" or "father".
This is just fantastic stuff. RIGHT up my street. Liked and subscribed. Well done that man.
I wonder if this focus on struggle for kingship reflects power struggles in the very foundation of society.
Who is the equivalent to fenrir? What about the hand sacrifice story?
Talking about using fenrir to bring down a king by removing the hand, i wonder if fenrir can stand as symbolism for the wolf warriors that should have been around in those time. I think he made a video about those too.
One aspect of Norse gods and worship that I may bring up, not to derail your hypothesis, but I think is important nonetheless. Norse gods weren't really known as "the god of insert thing here". Eg: Thor wasn't the god of thunder, his name just literally meant "thunder". Just like Tyr wasn't the god of anything, but became associated with concepts like justice because of his actions in the Eddas. Seeing the gods as divine manifestations of worldly concepts isn't really a Norse concept, it's much more of a Roman or a Greek mood.
I don't think it's implausible to suggest that the Norse saw Odin as their chief god because he was a wise, old man in essence with many names. Tyr being cognate with Zeus and Jove doesn't mean he held an equal position with them. Cognates can change meaning across languages, and by the time you get to pre-Proto Norse peoples it's tough to say if we're still talking about the same entity by that point.
To me, it feels like stretching evidence to fit a narrative.
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos Yes, good point in my humble opinion (for what it's worth).
I have just found this channel and definitely gonna stay a while and listen. Great content bror.
Thank you, I do try and read most comments, and so if you have questions feel free to ask.
I love learning about ancient mythology and all the mysteries and theory crafting that can he done.
Thank you for watching
According to Schwerpunk (an historian who have a channel here om RUclips) Tyr was the representative not of wat ifself, but of battle, while Odin would be the actual god associated with the leading of an army in search of glory and battle, representing the ancient and already veteran warrior, Tyr would be more like a young warrior, who represents battle itself on a more localized meaning... This is interesting, since Tyr is said on the Eddas to be the most brave of all gods, maybe he represents the young and brave warriors with more energy, while Odin is more like an instigator, someone who is behind the wars.
That may be their roles at the end of the 10th century, but I feel their earlier positions were different.
Amazing video thank you
Tyr as head god makes more sense if you flip who took over from whom and assign Odin a role similar to what Ra had going, where he's around and definitely important but he doesn't really get involved much. Odin really likes going out into the world and wandering, when he is home he seems to prefer listening to his ravens and sitting on his throne, and he got banished from Asgard that one time, so who runs things most of the time? Thor usually likes to take off to thwack Jotun, so probably not him. Heimdall is watching the bridge, Bragi is doing whatever Bragi does, etc. So that just leaves Tyr as the only other one associated with leadership.
Personally I think Loki and Tyr are both aspects of Odin, the concentrated trickster and wargod forms
Your observation that many scholars are averse to speculation hits the nail on the head. Fruitful speculation involves testing ideas by what is known, by looking for parallel patterns, and by being willing to reject hypotheses that only work in isolated, anecdotal situations. Without some degree of speculation, nothing new can be discovered in a field about long-dead people’s thoughts and stories which were mostly not written down.
Thank you for your kind words, and understanding on why I sometimes do this. I would much rather discuss the possibilities than not discuss at all.
Brother your channel is great I love your story speaking abilities great job dude
I think the primary reason as to why people started asking this question is due to a show called American Gods. This is a very complicated question, especially when you take into account cults dedicated to certain gods. Yngvi-Freyr was popular for the Swedes, Seaxneat for the Saxons, goddess Nerthus(who went on to be the male god Njordr)before a lot of the pantheon was worshipped in the way the Vendel/Viking era Norse did. Very difficult question.
Nerthus and Njord as the same being? Can you elaborate?
I think high level speculation educated guesstimates are critical to learning and the creation of hypothesis to be tested. You did a wonderful job of explaining your reasoning and were clear with regard to with was guess and speculation without asserting them as fact. It is how people learn and grow in their own thinking and efforts to move our understanding forward over time. So pish-posh on old school academics you are not teaching adolescents in rote learned facts. Thanks to you and your patrons.
Thank you for taking the time to comment such thoughtful words. I appreciate it.
Hi, I appreciate you being explicitly clear what is speculation, what is sourced and what is an educated guess.
Thank you, I do like pondering certain ideas sometimes.
The etymology of Tyr. Who knew? Not I. "Dancing in all its forms cannot be excluded from the curriculum of all noble education; dancing with the feet, with ideas, with words, and, need I add that one must also be able to dance with the pen?" - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900) Oh, you are smooth and graceful and subtle, and one must pay close attention. Listening to your presentations more than once - recalling what you've said about (for example) reading a text more than once to get a better gist - can create for me a wider (unexpected) perspective. Your WHG hews down mercilessly the oppressing and unnecessary, and your EEF methodically tills the soil and plants precious seeds in minds so that the future will be a better place - although many of those seeds will remain dormant in some for quite a while yet. But they are there...
I'm gushing, again, but it's important to me to en-courage you to continue (as I have a vague notion of the time and effort involved in assembling your videos), so that I - as a late-bloomer - can glean what I'm able regarding your thinking-methods (freely available to any who have an interest) and your style. I'm slow, and I skim across a very wide surface, but my Ultimate Concern, is to dive deeper. I do try to 'give in return' if I'm able - not in the market-value way, but from gratitude. Thank you, Sir Jon of CRECGANFORD.🗡🌾
Such kind and thoughtful words, and they are much appreciated, as is the poetic style of your words. I hope I can continue to allow your thoughts to grow alongside the videos that I will continue to make.
In Gatka, a Sihk martial art Tyr is associated with archery. The rune Tyr also is arrow shaped. I hypothesize that the god Tyr had been a wielder of the war bow until forced to use a sword in off hand.
That is an interesting take on Tyr, thank you for sharing
Tīr just means “arrow” and it’s not even a native Indic word. I believe it’s Persian in origin.
In Irish mythology it was Nuada, king of gods, who lost a hand or arm in battle. Because of that he was unfit to lead, and the god Lugh took over. In India it was the sungod Surya who lost his hand. Nuada his lost hand was replaced by a silver hand, in Surya's case it was a golden hand.
Yes, I mention him in my videos about Kings :)
Could you please mention the sources regarding Surya losing his hand ( and getting it replaced by a golden prosthetic?). As far as I'm aware he broke his jaw in the Aditya clan vs Rudra clan civil war following Sati's self immolation. But I haven't heard of him losing his hand though.
@@uselesshero.official "Van Aegir tot Ymir" p. 196, by Paula Vermeyden and Arend Quak
@@bennyvangelder7624 thanks but I don't have the book. Could you please mention the source where the author has taken this story from? I mean the source in Hindu religious scriptures.
I don’t recall Sūrya breaking his jaw. Pūshan gets his teeth knocked out.
That was a worthwhile conversation even if some speculation would displease hardcore "scientists". Logical, worth thinking about and entertaining. Thankyou
Thank you for watching, understanding my thoughts, and commenting. It is appreciated.
I'm glad these threads can be examined and reconsidered from another perspective too. The nuances make a difference, and time is long. Especially without writing. Long tales in winter, to fill many days.
I'm actually looking for info on Finnish beliefs. There must have been differences of interest, due to waves of different pastorals and settlers.
Asking for a friend. 🤭
I will make a video on Finnish culture and beliefs, but it is a more challenging task due to having less source material. But when I feel I can do a good enough job, I will :)
good on you for providing your sources
Thank you for watching, and noticing I do... many don't
May I suggest that a shift in the role of a god may actually be a reflection of a shift in the prominence of their priests and their devotees. Alternatively, a god may come to be preferred due to a perception of that god being more responsive to oracular inquiries or divination and, therefore, more helpful, and eventually, more important to a given people. Over time, many diverging Indo-European peoples may come to rank their gods differently.
Another way a shift in a god's ranking and/or role may occur when a people migrate into a new land and acquire a fixed shrine with it's attending priests. There may have been a fixed divine infrastructure but the tribes were not fixed. It's like being a Catholic and attending a church with one patron saint, then moving to a new town and going to a church with a different patron saint. You can't keep referring to your old church because you aren't there anymore but must accept the local prominence given to your new church's patron saint.
The video was more about whether Tyr was Dyeus Phter, as opposed to why there was a shift in the gods. But you are right there are many reasons for this, and I personal feel migration and conflict were probably key reasons for this.
Excelent video stefan🎉🎉🎉🎉
Wow! You've really thought this through!
Losing a hand or arm must have been one of the more common survivable wounds, and many warriors might well relate to Tyr and see such injuries as badges of honor.
Actually look into the society structure of the celtic tribe it will make more sense. Within the tribe you had the leader and head warrior, and the druid which was equal if not higher than the clan leader. Druid is the religious leader, the healer, magician and etc. They both lead the tribe from different rules.
This fits Odin and Tyr rule within the Pantheon and why both are seen as head of it at one point. Also within celtic tribes, one that is unfit for battle is unfit to lead. Thus losing his hand made him lose his prowess and throne.
Merlin is a Druid, and his story fits many of Odins stories. Where he brought forth kings, magical swords and messed in the affairs of man.
Food for thought. Good video
Wotan meaning battle fury, or rage also fits within the berserker. As a Mage would use magic to aid the warriors in battle from afar, gifting them an edge. His edge was the strength of bears, wolves and boars. Odin is a Druid and high ranking religious figure, hence the name all father and sky father.
Very interesting analysis!!!
Thank you
I love your videos. I was slightly interested in the title but the way you walk through the related facts was amazing. Do you write? Have you been an academic or is this "just" a personal passion? I would love to see a discussion of Odin (is that D really a th?) in relation to Wotan and Woden etc. Sure you're too busy to reply to every bit of drivel on your old vids but thanks.
I am an academic, and I do author, but usually under a different name. Yes the D is really pronounced as a "th", and I will talk about Odin more in the not too distant future. Thank you for watching and your questions.
Interesting and informative 👍
Thank you
Great as always :)
Also I imagine the list of videos for the future must be rather intimidating at this point😅
Almost 200 videos on my to do list! I think I may be doing this for a while!
@@Crecganford oh my... 😳 only the thought makes me wanna procrastinate. Much respect for your dedication!
Well-done, especially with the paucity of data at your disposal. The figure of Fjörgyn is intriguing. I’m curious about him/her being bound at the foot? Lower leg? Perhaps a connection to Achilles or Hephaestus? Injuries/handicaps were common aspects of many Near Eastern myths (not just Greek ones). Also your side comment about Mars Thincsus/Thingsus really got the juices flowing, especially after you mentioned “assembly”. Since the beginning of measured history and beyond, Caucasians have used godekans as assemblages to watch stars, make decisions, and perform ceremonies ( Swedish Thing, right?). The origin of the Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, et al “ting” is from a reconstructed Proto-Germanic neuter pinga, which is close to the Dagestani Kim/Gim/ Gimga-Godekan. Same meaning in both cases. As I’ve said before but can perfectly understand that you must create what viewers are interested in: it would be time that you showed the Caucasus some love. That being said, love your videos. How bout one dealing with the parallels of the Norse Pantheon with the one in Indian mythologies? The similarities are striking and both even have cosmic war variations.
Thank you for watching, and looking at the Indic pantheons is something I'm researching right now, but there is a issue I'm trying to overcome that I cannot find any research on. So once I have tackled that, and found an answer to my question, I'll be ready to go ahead. Thanks for taking the time to comment, it is really appreciated.
@@Crecganford Thank YOU for great, serious content. To your comment: there's a guy on Academia who posted a wonderful comparison between the two-it's eerie how similar many of the deities are, even those as far away from India as Iceland. If you'd like a link let me know and I'll dig it out for you...
@@CrecganfordIf you’re still stuck on this I’d be glad to try and help you.
I have seen a video that stated Tyr was the chef god of some southern Germanic tribes, but Wotan/Odin was also worshipped. The whole of the Germanic people worshipped the same gods, maybe by slightly different names and rituals, but basically the same faith. To say only focus on the Norse/Scandinavian groups narrows the viewpoint.
I think this got a tad bit rambly in the end, but the details put forth are a very good summary of what we're dealing with.
The analogy of a crime scene with scattered clues is a good one.
I think everyone needs to understand how quickly mythology within an oral culture can change, how many different influences there are and just how long a timespan we're talking about. Let alone how geographically widespread an area we're dealing with, and how much different parts of Norse/Germanic culture would have changed from place to place.
One also needs to understand just how poorly sourced Norse Mythology really is. We really don't know how well the writings of people like Snorri hits the mark. What we like to imagine we know about Norse Mythology can't compare with the surprisingly good sources we have for Indian, Iranian and Greco-Roman cultures. We really also have way too few datapoints all together to say with any sort of scientific certainty that religions develop following a certain pattern.
In sum, trying to put together a coherent narrative here is complete folly but it's fun to speculate.
My "feeling" is Odin is a uniquely Germanic invention, he might've developed within the early Proto-Germanic culture, or he might stem from an earlier Pre-Germanic deity that was absorbed into the pantheon.
I see cases for both Thor and Tyr being related to Dyeus but certainly not as directly as with Zeus and Jupiter. Though I will say our perception of Dyeus might be too influenced by the image invoked by Zeus and Jupiter. Remember how little we actually know about Dyeus. Just something to keep in mind.
Thor "might" trace his lineage back to Dyeus since they share some characteristics, but I think there's a considerably stronger case for him being related to Perkwunos.
When it comes to Tyr his name obviously comes from Dyeus and he clearly used to be more important in the early Germanic faith. Him losing his hand might symbolize his "demotion" in the pantheon. It's a neat and tempting narrative. But there might be confirmation bias here. He shares very few characteristics with Dyeus after all. There could be all kinds of reasons why Tyr ended up with his name. It simply means "God" after all. I think it's important to remember Indo European Gods used to have several names and epithets. Sometimes the epithets would replace their original names etc. The names of some of these Gods might've went through several iterations over the millennia, making their etymological lineages very hard to trace clearly in an oral tradition like Germanic/Norse.
Either Tyr developed from Dyeus and his role drastically changed over time, or he is a separate deity that just happened to end up with his name. Both are possible, yet impossible to prove.
Odín isn’t really *that* unique. He shares clear characteristics with Rudra, for example.
@@Astavyastataa I think you misunderstand me. I don't think Odin is particularly special. I just don't think he's as directly related to PIE deities as are for instance Thor and Tyr or Zeus and Jupiter.
But what do I know. The whole point of my comment was to hammer home how difficult it actually is to trace the development of Norse mythology as compared with the way more well documented Greco-Roman and Indo-Iranian mythologies.
One weird thing I’d like to point out. Nuada one of the old Celtic specifically Irish deities also lost one of his hands in the Irish book of invasions and it was replaced with a silver one. He was the first king of the Irish gods until him losing an arm had him removed from power. Pretty neat coincidence
Edit: had the name wrong at girdt
Yes, Nuada aligns to this, and I have spoken about him in other videos. I do want to talk more about the Celts, as it is such an interesting culture.
I leave my comment for record, though few are currently interested in my thoughts. Odin is All Father. Two forms. One passive, that wills Thor into being, who then also brings Loki into being, so that Thor can take on the active role of Odin. Odin 1.0 becomes philosophical because he has to spend many years being ignored by everyone in this faithless world, so he develops a very stoic personality. Thor is more driven, and does not become so stoic so easily, besides which, Odin has spent years loosening the lid of the jar, so to say, so Thor is determined that he will reveal to everyone that they are the gods, rather than the humans they previously believed themselves to be. Those three are primary active elements, though Loki just sort of does his own thing, and Odin, is essentially passive. Freyja, is still lost in Vanir delusion up in Iceland, basically held by Odr, such is my opinion. All is done under the guidance of Frigg, the supreme power. Tyr, I identify as someone I have not seen for maybe 6 years, though I used to know him well in the last century. He is bold and courageous, and he is up to his neck in all of this, but he is not one of the main instigators of change.
the story of how tyr lost his right hand reminds me today how people still swear oaths, salute, and shake hands with their right hands, which also was considered the "clean" hand. this along with him presiding over the thing reminds me most of the zoroastrian mithra or vedic mitra, who (wikipedia tells me) is associated with the sun (echoes of the sky father) and truth, justice, oaths, contracts, etc. perhaps not so coincidentally the mithraic mysteries, though their mithras was somewhat different, later on were practiced primarily by roman soldiers. this connection would probably be more obvious long ago when wars were often justified for reasons of justice and honor, and the dealing of justice often more approached the waging of war on injustice than the legalistic institutions of today.
I was interested to hear your take on the symbolism of different types of injuries and their meanings in mythology. The patron saint of Suffolk was also a king and he had his head chopped off by the Danes. This was later found being guarded by a wolf
I think a podcast about Norse Myth would be awesome between you and Jackson Crawford.
I'm not sure Jackson would be so into that, but I can always ask him.
@@Crecganford Fingers crossed! I think that would go very well. You both are awesome and make learning fun. The subject is already very interesting but you guys give it an extra spark!
I had to look up place names after Tyr, and there are a few in Sweden, like Tyringe, Tiveden and Tierp.
What an awesome video!
New subscriber to your channel, I'll be watching every video I can... Thanks for sharing all of this knowledge, sir!
Question... the spanish the word for God is Dios... Is it also a variation of Tyr?
Greetings all the way from Lima, Perú!
Yes, Spanish is a descendant language of PIE, so Dios is cognate with Dyeus
And thank you for watching, and leaving such a kind comment
Great work.
Thanks!
@@Crecganford you seem to be one of the few people talking about the Indo Europeans, most people talk about the Israelites who did nothing and boast about everything, whereas these people conquered the world.
@@ernestschroeder9762 Tiwaz was Tiwad or David in Israel.
@@ernestschroeder9762 No, just kidding.
28:27 Interesting side-fact: in Norwegian, the word Tyr is also a noun for a fully grown, horned bull in its prime.
Do you have any thoughts about possible connections to the god Tyr, that is in cult practice or mythology?
'Courage is not simply one of the virtues
[i.e. gods], but the form of every virtue
at the testing point.' ~ C. S. Lewis
I think Tyr is handless for a reason. He was a mighty warrior god but cannot carry a weapon anymore, so he is dependent on diplomacy, promises, and treaties with others. Of which he was the overseer/god. Yet he is very much respected by the other gods for his bravery and sacrifice.
Diplomacy, laws, treaties, and promises are important to survive (Tyr). In times of war or raiding (or a more militarized culture) power is more important (Thor). Wisdom is the thing that rules both because it can lead to either ruin or victory (Odin). Luck is very important as well, and bad luck or accidents can screw you up no matter how good you prepare (Loki).
However, luck is not something human or something you can get skilled in. Therefore Loki is partly the child of a more primitive nature power (a giant). The humans/gods are constantly trying to overcome these nature powers (giants) with power, knowledge, cleverness, and tribes working together.
But in the end, these nature powers will always win and cause a clean slate on whatever scale. Surtr is a comet or volcano. The midgard serpent is a flood/tsunami. Fenrir is an earthquake. Ice giants are extreme cold periods, fire giants are extreme warm periods, that hellhound is like unleashed death because people will be massively dying etc.
That is why in Ragnarok the earth gets wiped, yet after it is wiped, there is no mention about all those giants and things etc anymore. Like they poofed away. But it's just that the natural disasters ran their course and now it begins all over again.
This account of Tyr completely avoids the most interesting part of his myth - I don't think he even said the word "sacrifice", did he? Did you, Mr. C?
Yes, that's a good view on what it could mean, but it is on the basis that Tyr always had one hand... and I'm not sure we can prove whether that is true or not. But I will see if I can find more evidence to support this either way. Thank you for watching :)
An interesting take on the subject with some good points.
I believe Tyr represents honour and the sacrifices one must make to preserve it. Tyr places his hand in Fenrir's mouth and gives Oath to the Wolf knowing that the Aesir plan to use trickery to chain him.
Tyr sacrifices his hand not only for the greater good of the Aesir (his family ) but also because he will not break an Oath as this would be dishonorable.
In this way when I make offering to the Gods I ask Woden to be the wisdom with which I lead my family,
Thunor to be the strength with which I defend them and Tiw be the sacrifices I make to protect our honour.
@@penhullwolf5070 Yes, I can understand and accept that view. His interaction with Fenrir is a very important moment.
Hm. Makes me wonder if there's a relation to Llew Llaw Gyffes or Lugh of the silver hand.
I read his story with losing a hand that he was justice in the society, and put his hand in fenrirs mouth as a way to support peace in society through justice.
Fenrir being a beast inside the society if that makes any sense
Congrats for the video!! Just knowing the channel right now. i always thought weird that fenrir revenged over odin and not tyr in ragnarok. This makes me think that there are characters changing roles here. What do you think?
And the Image of a sky god having both the moon and the sun on each Hand is familiar to me. This could connect tyr, fenrir, a sky god and ragnarok… does it make any sense?
Don't forget Fenrir was actually an alternative name for Loki, and so first we need to understand if it was Loki attacking Odin, or his child, the wolf? Now whilst it reads as the wolf now, perhaps in an earlier myth it was different. What I'm trying to say though, is that it is complicated, very complicated.
I have an ignorant question. Why do we call Thor, Thor, and Othin, Odin? I'm referring to the d vs th.
It depends on who is speaking in which dialect of which language. A modern English man would pronounce these differently to a Scandinavian man from 1,000 years ago.
I for those that read the comments. I suggest you watch this video more than once … it’s depth is complex
I think these stories are talking about events going on, in the Last iceage, or at its end, Aesir and Vanir describing stepp peoples and old European peoples. Odin's parents survived the Great Flood and gave birth to him, later Ragnorok is describing the Yonger Dryas, Fenris is the representation of cold (the yonger dryas is a mini iceage)
Tyr lost his hand to the cold, too the wolf
Interesting way to view these gods, as representations of past events.
@@Crecganford many "Gods" are ancient kings and Queens or chieftains...
Egyptian texts even say Isis and Osiris and others physically lived in Egypt and ruled Egypt as pharaohs durring Zep tepi(a mythic golden age or era)
Like maybe in 9000 BC some warrior was actually made by a king to clean his stable and eventually long after the fact people called this man Hercules? ( stepp peoples considering horses are part of the story? )
Freya was the most popularly worshipped god/goddess of the Norse pantheon. She was worshipped as the Sun in a similar manner to the Greek god, Apollo. She was worshipped at the beginning of spring and was also worshipped as the goddess of fertility.
This was erased by Christians and they put Easter over her holiday.
The Greeks most popularly worshipped Athena and the Gailic people worshipped Bridget as a red haired sun goddess who otherwise is very similar to Freya. Bridget was so popular that she was kept as a saint by the Catholics because they wouldn't stop worshipping her even when they were killed for it.
Sumer goddess ishtar
A suggestion; make guided meditation videos. Nothing too extreme, more along the lines of therapeutic meditations rather than the deep spiritual 'epiphanic' ones... (they can get really weird...) You have a good voice for it. Along the lines of Michael Sealey's guided meditations on YT.
Alas I find it difficult to meditate as my mind works 24x7 and I just can't stop thinking. I have tried many things, from mountain climbing to long walks, to audio coaching, and aromatherapy, but I just can't stop thinking enough to allow myself to meditate :(
@@Crecganford Not everyone is able to unfortunately. I understand to a certain degree, which is why I like listening to the type of content you make. It's an escape from the practical, so thank you for your work. :)
Egil's saga is my favourite Norse story which I've read more times than I remember
I thoroughly enjoy that story too. Some of those Icelandic Sagas are so entertaining, really undervalued by many.
Hello, you mention Dyews ph ter about 4.55 min into this video as proto indo Euro sky god. This sounds like Zarathustra. Just wondering if there would be a significant link. My Zoroastrianism isn't the greatest atm. This is more something that made me think about connections rather than a question about this video topic. I have been searching for everything your videos are discussing my whole life. So amazing. Everything I have learned is fitting into place much better. Your channel is wonderful. Best Regards, Jonathan
Hi, thank you for watching and asking the question. They're not cognate, in fact Zarathustra is something to do with old camels, I mention it in my Ferryman video if that helps :)
I am TYR and it's interesting hearing you say these things was different back then didn't happen this way I still have my arm and I tumbled down a mountain when the the wolf attacked in the snow it broke its neck when we fell but it never let go of my arm on the way down
The place I first read that Tyr was the Sky Father and cognate to Deus was in the books of Edred Thorsson/Stephen Flowers. I feel a bit foolish because Flowers was my main source of runic and Norse magic. But, I didn't realize until relatively recently that he was Left-Hand Path and it influenced his works heavily. I actually don't mind, I just wish I had caught it earlier. I know that has nothing to do with the Tyr argument.
Tyr is often thought to corellate with the Irish Nuada because both lost their hand. Nuada lost his hand fighting a warrior named Sreang, meaning 'cord, wire, chain'; Tyr lost his during the binding of Fenrir. The Romano-British equivalent of Nuada, Nodens was also identified with Mars. The Goths hung the arms of sacrifices in trees in honour of their war god; the Scythians also cut the arms of victims as a sacrifice to their war god too, who they worshipped in the form of a sword. Nuada had a sword that could cut through anything. When Fenrir was bound a sword was thrust into his jaws to hold them open until Ragnarok.
The runes that form his name mean Stand Still and Flow. A fitting attribution for a deity associated with Strategy.
He was a very strategic god.
Interesting Nuada Silverarm was king of the tribe of Danu, is often considered a war god, despite only fighting two wars. One against "The Farmers" and one against "The Greedy" (who come from the sea) but still a missing arm war god sort of.
Very interesting discussion, thank you. I'm wondering if there is a connection between the Nordic myths and the Irish Tuatha de Danaan? As I recall Nuada lost his hand in a battle with the FirBolg and so lost his kingship as a ruler had to be unblemished. But a silver one was fashioned and so he reclaimed his position as Nuada Airgetlam. As Tyr lost his hand, would the same stipulation apply, that is in order to be a war god, he had to be physically whole? But when he lost his hand, he was demoted to a lesser status? Nuada is a cognate of the British Nodens who was equated with the Roman Mars and who also lost a hand. What is the symbolism behind losing a hand and losing status? Any ideas?
Yes, without doubt, this symbolism is certainly an early Indo-European motif, as it links to the Proto Indo-European Creation myth. I have a video on this, and on How to Build the World, and also an interview touching on the British Creation Myth with Jon Mason where we also touch on this. Thanks for watching and I hope you find time to watch those videos.
hmm interesting the formians can mate with tuatha de danean and jotuns can mate with the aesir
Tiwaz twice would resemble "this side up" on the side of boxes... ;-p
Indeed it does!
It's very interesting that we are still having a Tyr's day in Alemannic German. In Switzerland we are calling Tuesday Zistig, which literally means Zio's Day. We are also having a day for Thor, Donstig, Day of the Thunder and one for Frigg, Fritig, but we are not having a day for Odin.
For me it feels like Odin was to strange to people as he seems to be a very 'shamanic' kind of God and not that easy relatable to as Tyr with his role as a protector of the Thing and law and order and Thor as a God of War or even Frigg as the God Mother
That is interesting, Odin is a complex god with a complex history, although we do have attestations of Woden from that area, certainly via stories of the Wild Hunt. But he was considered more of a spirit at this point as opposed to a personified god like Tyr (Zio) or Thor (Thunoraz).
Yes, you have the IE linguistically stuff that is not really disputed. There are more than a few references to Tyr as a sky god. Let’s first go with the Anglo-Frisian poem that literally associated him with a star. This should be obvious with Deva/Tiwaz as cognate and Deva is a shining blissful god. Perkunos/Fjörgynn is altogether different. Tyr was the original sky god from soooo long before even the Germanic language existed as a unique tongue. We should note that Dyaus is the true Indian cognate for Tyr/Zeus//Jupiter/Zio, and his fate explains a Eurasian (Pre-IE) mythological theme. Indra pulled Dyaus from his throne by his Achilles heel, usurping his father’s place. The same happened in the Chinese Bagua where Thunder, the first son, usurped his fathers throne, and since he was associated with green wood and Spring growth, he was called “Jade Emperor.” This was Thor, being the most praised god in the Viking age and possibly the pre-Viking age too, which is why the Romans mis-associated Týr with Mars and Thor with Jupiter, later influencing Chinese medicine (highly influenced by Greco-Indian philosophy) where Thunder/Jade Emperor is associated with the planet Jupiter.
Heaven is called Tian/T’ien in Chinese, as Tengri is the Siberian/Steppe version. There he’s said to have multiple forms, “like 5 fingers make 1 fist.” This clearly brings us to Tyr’s hand, because Tengri was also the wide blue sky god with the wolf sacred to him! The wolf pack was the war band, which brings us to the nomadic era of pre-bronze age religion where temples housed priest kings before palaces housed warrior kings. Tyr is the priest king…yet, Thor is the warrior king…so how did Óðinn become all father? The early temple complexes that began urbanization cultivated the first substantial trade routes that needed protection to keep the temples functional. Therefore, Like Tyr (similar to Tengri) raised the wolf pup, Sumerian priest kings (also using the title/symbol Dingir) trained warriors to guard their trade goods from bandits, which brought the agriculturalists and herdsmen to work out a deal of mutual support. This deal went sour and gave rise to Zarathustra’s prophecy of Ahura Mazda (“Spirit Great”). Yet, Dingir also had a different sound used in the middle of a sentence rather than as a symbolic note at the beginning of a divine name or priest name. This sound was “An”!!!! Yes, Ansuz, The As, Óðinn…but also Sumerian An…the head god!
Then we have Snorri, who modern heathens highly misread due to contempt for the superficial appearances of Christianity when it’s truly classical philosophy influencing both Heathen AND Christian philosophy. He clearly described with traditional style of history in his prologue to Gylfágínning (itself badly translated and should be “Gylfi’s Beginning”), how Óðinn set up priests in Europe, called Díar (plural), or Dí (singular). This was coupled with his sons set up to be kings, like those in “Troy,” which we now call Turkey.” He said they originally had 12 cities to 12 gods, with 12 languages…like the 12 tribes in Judaism from Hellenic influence…also 12 disciples. However, the Etruscans ALSO had 12 cities and languages in a loose confederate league. Even more so, they became the Cherusci after Roman’s conquered them, referring to their liver divination rather than their own self-identified name. They even called their gods “Æsir!”
Then when we see the traditional founder of Chinese Medicine is the Yellow Emperor we have more to analyze. As Thunder was wood/green/Jade, Rock is the 3rd son associated with earth’s fecundity and healing…or Vanir stuff, like Ishvara’s/Frey’s rock lingum (according to Snorri it was Frey’s first tooth breaking the gums like the rising Scandinavian undersea basin). and Freya being Vánadís (disir being feminine priestesses), mistress of healing.
Óðr is to Óðinn
As Hugr is to Huginn
Hugr is “Mind” and Huginn (“Thought”) is 1-Eye’s raven. Therefore, one is the action of the faculty that is the other. Óðr means “Sense” which makes Óðinn “Sensation” (generalized as Sentience), or the action taken by the faculty of the senses. If you cannot sense something, does it exist? To your mind, it’s only a fantasy without sentient validation. Therefore, he is All Father.
There’s more depth, yet.
Týr and Óðinn are said to have competed for rulership, which takes some work to unravel. It all truly goes back to Sumerian Dingir, which like Tyr is not only the sky god associated with the Star, but is the generic term for divinity placed before the “proper” name particular to that god/goddess. As you can see, Dingir directly becomes Tengri. However, the symbol is the 8 spoked wheel star symbol in the cuneiform style. The tool used to make the marks in Sumerian had a wide end and thin end. The left 4 were the wide part while the right f4 were the thin parts, corresponding perfectly to the yang (solid) and yin (broken) sides of the Bagua…lowest lines in the trigrams.
Dingir is pronounced “Thingir” like Thingus (a southern version for Tyr) or Thingi since the Icelandic rune poem associated Tyr with the Thing as government meeting. He is the “father Deva” so to say, but as a generalized divine symbol, the Holy Spirit (or “An” as in the middle of a Sumerian name) became more powerful. The Father is high and away, but the spirit has Avatars on Earth, like Vishnu (“Pervader”) in India. The Corpse/Shiva is “the Earth, void and formless) in Genesis 1:1 while Vishnu is the Ruach, “hovering over the deep” in 1:2. Brahmā is B’reishit, “In the beginning” as the first word of the Torah. They turn the images of the Torah with a wand of God’s finger…Tyrfingr, “a certain sword which they used as a mouth prop” which is the Gothic Excalibur of sword mysticism.
So the challenge is…Do we praise God, the Father, or the Holy Spirit as most powerful leader of the gods? Well.. that’s when we get to Freyr and the Living god…the living word/logos that can thus be killed/sacrificed and eaten like Bacchus (Bromios=B’reishit/Brahmā). The Lord (Freyr) fell in lust/live with his garden creation (Gerðr) who only cowered to his advances when threatened with insatiable lust (which makes a garden die with over production).
Sooooo…although you’re not wrong, there’s so much more that’s lacking in traditional Heathen analyses, being too IE focused.
I hope this helps. 🙏
I forgot that Thor is actually Mars…He has a red beard! Marduk is Mars and obviously Thunder hero. You mention Ymir, who is actually Water, the 2nd son and Black Emperor in the Bagua. His legend sired Kongfutzu (Confucius), a gathering mist around the woman to impregnate her. This brings us to the immaculate conception theme, following Fuxi who found the Bagua. He was conceived as his mother was a shamaness who called a giant spirit from Thunder-Lake Mountain. He left essence (soul) in his footprint (like Thor’s on the bottom of the ocean when he hooked Jörmundgandr). This theme continues as Zarathustra would be born to a virgin who bathed in a sacred mountain lake in Afghanistan. Of course, the Christ thing came out again that we are all familiar with.
Or maybe Tyr is like a variable mantle like figure, like Hecate's three avtars or Parvati's three avtars ( actually parvati has 90-108 forms but 3 are the most famous ones). It possible could also mean Odin, Thor and Tyr simultaneously.
It also bears worth stating that the head of the pantheon would not necessarily _have_ to be a sky and/or storm god. It is possible that the/a war god was regarded as the head of the pantheon to some peoples in some times. Tyr may also have a cognate in the Gaelic Nuada Airgetlam-who _was_ the king of the Tuatha de Dannan, until he lost his hand.
Yes, I agree. This video was to start a discussion rather than state facts. And this is a very plausible thought.
@@Crecganford As was mine. I very much appreciate the video!
I wionder whether Odin's position as chief of the pantheon arise first, and then his popularity amount elites in Norse society came later, or if he first started to gain prominence among elites, and so poets (working for the elites) started making him more prominent, eventually leading him to be the the chief of the pantheon. I can imagine either being true.
Well we know Woden was a chief god of the Germanic tribes around 2,000 years ago, and so it would make sense if Odin came into the Nordic pantheon in this position as well.
Check out the Black Sabbath album Tyr.
If you do more videos
You may wish to clarify it re: the Proto-Germanic deity Tiwaz as well.
My understanding is next to nothing..but I gather he may have been an arch-type for Odin, Thor, and Tyr. I don't know. I've read different stuff. It's confusing and complicated and I haven't read anything in like 40 years... So... I've forgotten pretty much everything.
Tiwaz is almost certainty the predecessor to Tyr, as opposed to Wodanaz who proceeded Wodan (and so Odin). There isn't too much we can say with confidence about these gods at this time, but I do occasionally make videos on them so keep watching the channel. There are new videos every couple of weeks.
Well... Reason I asked... Is that there seems to have been a deity of same name...Tiwaz...from Anatolia in Asia Minor...maybe a Hittite ( or related group ) deity. And the Gaelic tribes had a clear split.. where some were in Europe and some were in Asia Minor....and I know there is some blending/evolution of Gaelic deities and Germanic deities.
Sadly...my college days few..long ago.. and never finished...and I was never able to get Degrees in Anthropology and Archaeology and comparative cultures that I enjoyed to study as a kid
Now at 59... I have only my crazy theories.
And while my childhood theories from the 1970s were ridiculed by teachers in High School... As time has progressed...and we gain ever more knowledge... My theories are being proven correct (Vindication!)...
But mythology...is whole different can of worms...and I have not really focused on it as much as Anthropology over these many years.
@@darrinwebber4077 Thank you for the explanation, I shall go and investigate when I get some time. Thank you again for watching and your support.
Tyr losing his hand being representative of him losing his kingly power reminds me of how the celtic god Nuada lost his right to be the king of the gods after losing his arm only to then be replaced by Lugh.
Yes, exactly the same process and same cultural belief behind it.
Tyr is the arrow of time, Tyr can do all the gods jobs but favors love, war, and fertility.
I believe the etymology for the most part is correct, however, I believe the source to be Tuecer, the king of Troy. In the Iliad ("Ode to Ili"), Troy was also known as Ili. Tuecer had a daughter named Batea who married Dardanus, the ruler of the nearby island of Samothrace. The Dardanelles, not far from Samothrace, was named after Dardanus. Dardanus and Batea founded the Royal House of Troy. The citizens of Troy referred themselves as either Tucrians (Latin: Tuetones) or Dardanians (Danes?). In the ancient world the Iliad was considered sacred history.
Are you saying the source for the word Tyr is Tuecer? Or the source for what part of this? Sorry , it isn't clear to what you are referring?
@@Crecganford All I'm suggesting is that Tiw/Tue is the closest to the source - sorry I wasn't more clear, I have a bad habit of digressing. I've just been introduced to your channel and am looking forward to watching your uploads.
Teucrians is what you mean, and is not related to Teutones in the least. The Danes were called Cimbrians in Antiquity for the Jutland paeninsula was called Chersonessus Cimbricus. For your information.
Well done. I do think you’re getting closer to something like “truth” for heathens.
If there's a connection with Tyre, Thor and Tarhunta of ancient hittite records then you'll have some sort of evidence for some BCE references. I love your videos!!!!
So these are a different cognate, but I can try and find exactly what they mean, and do a supplementary video. Thank you for your kind words :)
@@Crecganford that would be very interesting
@@ptrpst the name terhunt comes from Proto-Anatolian *Tṛḫu-ent-,"conquering"; ultimately from PIE *terh₂-, "to cross over, pass through, overcome" and is related to Hittite verb tarḫu-zi, "to prevail, conquer, be powerful, be able, defeat";
And thus unrelated to the name thor which instead comes from Proto-Indo-European word for 'thunder' *(s)tenh₂-, and is cognate in the Celtic thunder god Taranis (from an earlier *Tonaros) and a epithet for Vedic god indra तनयित्नु (tanayitnú literally 'Thunderer')
@@abhinavchauhan7864 wow! Great reply! Thank you
@@ptrpst my pleasure🤗
Ty was Odin's general, in charge of the army of fallen warriors in Valhall.
"Grab a cup of tea" - just as I was pouring tea - spooky.
It is my 4th favourite hobby, just below drinking tea…
An accurate picture of Odin and Tyr would be nice.
Unless I'm wrong (possible) didn't the ancient Germanic tribes have a very loose sense of kingship with very little centralized authority? Might this have influenced the way they viewed who was "in charge" of the pantheon?
Yes, some tribes didn’t have kings during points in their existence, and this almost certainly influenced their pantheons. Thanks for watching and commenting.
As for the idea of Tyr being a predecessor of Odin as head god, I think there's a precedent with Uranus/Cronos being the original chief god in the Greek & Roman pantheons instead of Zeus/Jupiter. I frequently suspect that prior to the Indo European invasion, there was a major widespread culture in what is now Eurasia (or further) with its own religion that fractured among all the various cultures that eventually formed the European peoples, into the various pantheons (as well as languages etc). I think that may also account for commonalities across Eurasia (and maybe beyond) such as stone monuments, pyramids, etc. The idea of a lost ancient primal culture always interested me.
Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment. It is always good to hear other views on this subject, and I appreciate your time.
@@Crecganford I love your videos, they are so informative and so indepth - like mini college courses!
I read an article once that claimed the norse could've worshipped a deity that was similar to the PIE sky-god Dieus Pter, and that said deity was above Odin in hierarchy, unfortunately
i couldn't find this article again, do you have any info on that?
Not directly, but as I suggest there is very little linkage with PIE god names in the Nordic area, which is why their pantheon is shaped somewhat differently to the other IEs. But I will try and find an article or two on this and make a video if it is of interest.
My family has Norse ancestors, dating back to Eric the Red. I'm teaching my kids about this.
I want to hear more! I find a similar dynamic between Tyr/ Nuada, Thor/Lugh, Odin/ The Dagda weird blendedness in a purely speculative way. Did you ever make an Odin Tyr video?
Thank you for watching, and with time I will get around to making videos about these.