Absolutely bang on with your GM advice, as confirmed by the MCS techical guru last year 👏. Yes, there are variables but take the EM115 din rain meter as one example, it's MID so if you have the App then your system is compliant. Plus, I have also found that inverters with built in generation figures are generally in the right ballpark when compared to the Emlite GM's. Keep up the great work Gents 👍
Smart meters can be a practical application because there are many models that can connect to a Wi-Fi network and for their relatively low cost it can add additional monitoring functionality It is also worth knowing that some companies offer independent schemes when they can pay for the energy generated and they require a meter to be installed at the time where the system was so if you want to sign up for any of these things afterwards it can become a problem.
Many of the older FiT ones (like mine) do not have export meters, only an authorised generation one belonging to the house owner, and on a 50% deemed export contract with Ofcom (linked to RPI inflation) via one of the suppliers that manages it. At least, that is true in the absence of a “Smart” meter owned by the utility firm, which is the case at present at my place. It all depends on your usage, as to whether measure export would be better than 50% generation as deemed export. I’m just about half way through a 20 year FiT, so I guess it’s possible that a smart meter on the utility side might take over sometime, or if one of the other units fails part way through.
We have to have generation meters for billing purposes, and this has shown up some weird failure modes of inverters. The main one being the inverter says it's producing, say, 3kW but the generation meter shows it's only outputting 2kW. So far the only inverters we've had do that are old ABB ones but that's not to say it can't happen to others. You do also pick it up because the system performs badly, but if you were only going by the numbers on the inverter you wouldn't even notice that. We've relatively recently moved to using Rayleigh meters which have a lot of positives but one massive negative when we do meter swaps on old FiT registered systems is that the serial number is only written on the back. If you forget to print out a label before you install it, you have to rummage around taking the whole metering panel apart to remove it from the DIN rail. I've no idea why they can't just do what everyone else does and write it on the front.
With smart metering for import/export it doesnt feel like its really needed anymore. Im happy to rely on the mid meters such as the din rail ones on the GivEnergy AIO/Gateway in place of a physical meter of its own right. Less happy to rely on the inverters themselves to give accurate generation data so with a base level solax system as an example we would still fit an external meter. Its a good way to check what the inverter is saying its doing vs whats actually outputting into the wider system. Quick and simple way to check over time what you actually produced. Because we all know when an app loses support or some firmware is updated that data is likely gone to the cloud forever with it lol. Good walk through again Gordon. Didnt know Gary has solar he has never mentioned it.....
Problem is the dumb meters don’t give you any time reference so you can’t really gauge performance overtime. Unless you take a manual reading week / day
@@efixx absolutely agree. More to see very quickly since I put my system in its pumped out however many units. Day to day I use the GivEnergy portal which can show me generation output, temperatures of all the equipment, power factor, voltage and what I had for dinner lol. That level of data is insane. The worry is much like when Anderson got into trouble in the EV world is that reliable long term, will it always have support for say a 15 year lifespan. I quite like having the little meter to check now and then. Was very interesting to visit an older system last week that has one for the FIT and that has measured generation since 2010.
@@efixx actually these dumb metres are programmable via an optical interface so if correctly configure that can be retrieved but you have to order them straight from the manufacturer and get millions
Was that a photo of Gary accessing the SunSynk app at the end on both phone and laptop? So that must be 2x10 making it 20 times a day lol. Being just as sad I even graph my data 😵💫. Having the Sunsynk app, a smart meter and a generation meter it's headbanging that you can't match the figures up. I was told the gen meter tells me (a) Import = what the PV puts in the battery, (b) export = the remainder generated by the PV and (c) Net = simply the difference between the two. But if I add (a) + (b) it is a fair bit lower than the app tells me! As a customer the smart meter tends to give me the most favourable readings. Again I guess the more things there are, the more problems can arise.
Hi great video. Thanks we have always used the inverter second screen we have downstairs to give readings. They now say only readings from solar pv meter accepted and that Is less than the inverter. Why would that be ? Thanks
I'm getting solar fitted in the next few weeks. I'm in northern ireland, so the rules are different. my installer says it will just run my old spinning meter backwards, so effectively net metering. He said the electric supplier will try to get me to install a new meter but i can say no, however I want to get the meter moved anyway so i'll let them install a new one if they move it for free.
I doubt the rules are that different, having backward spinning meter would be an issue in mainland UK, and leave you open to financial penalties if discovered (though I have never heard that happening). Some older meters go forward whether you are drawing power or exporting making you pay for your generation too, and some spinning meters have a stop on them to prevent the meter going backwards. All things being equal probably safest to go for a smartmeter and get on a tariff that pays more for export.
@@mikebarry229 can't get smart meters in Northern Ireland. Like they refuse to fit them. Boggles the mind, but I got the export meter fitted just this week so we'll see how it goes
I've been avoiding smart meters for years due to issues on site. However if I want to carry on with E7 I have to get a smart meter my March/April next year due to the BBC ending LW transmission making out Telemeter obsolete.
Me too. Government guidance clearly says "ideally a smart meter" which according to the energy suppliers means MUST BE A SMART METER. Ofcon told me that a "dumb" meter is perfectly acceptable.!!! I cannot have a so called smart meter at this property and at this time I am dumping my surplus in to a water tank. We have a ten panel system and are low energy users so quite a lot is being wasted which is almost as criminal as the profits made by energy companies during the recent crisis.@@efixx
A few years ago I had to have an old radio teleswitch controlled meter replaced, which was done with a modern one with it’s own built in clock, and a standby battery. Used for E7, permanently on night rate between about 23:36 - 06:36 GMT. It is not a “smart” one. Normally read it myself and plonk the numbers in to my account with the utility firm.
My PV/battery "Generation" meter has been damaged as the installers left one of the screws loose and it's now a bit melted. I'm already getting export payments from my smart meter so if I understand correctly the export meter was only fitted as best practice and is not actually showing anything useful so it could just be removed, I did aske them not to fit it it in the first place.
MC's are losing members since octopus energy made their announcement with regards taking on none MCs systems. As far as metering for the sack of £30 I still fit them.
Out of interest if a meter is fitted and FIT payments are being received, who owns the meter? And if there is a problem with it who is responsible for repair/ replacement? If it is the consumer would they need to use an MCS installer to carry out any work associated with the meter to maintain their FIT payments?
Generally, if the serial number of that meter has been recorded, the same protocol would be taken to record the new serial number and document its failure
Let's make this simple as it seems you are missing the point. The meter is to record the kW generated by the connect system at the site. Which, is also accepted by the energy co's as it has a known level of accuracy. The inverter does not providing the same level of accuracy. Also, what happens when the inverter is replaced? Or when the inverter manufacturer go bankrupt? All data is lost as it is likely that the inverter model/manufacturer is changed. The placement of the meter shouldn't be in the Roof. It's supposed to be where day light is available. If the installer has placed it wrongly. Then it should fail the MCS cert. A SMART meter may be available however it's not guaranteed. Even now. Your one doesn't work! They also can't tell if you have created the kW via Gen or PV. Hence, the physical meter should be fitted.
Unless it's a old feed in tariff agreement - the meter isn't used by the energy company for payment. Without a smart meter you can't get an export MPAN so are frozen out of the smart tariff. If the inverter fails, then the data will still be available in the app. The "dumb" generation meters, only record an total generation, no data with regards to time or track of performance, so really a useless number. Would be a different case if installers fitted a version with communications.. but most fit the £30 version.
Even with "dumb" meters it really depends on the meter model used, there are many that have capability for adding communications but can be used without that have granular data at configurable intervals similar to what smart meters provide. Your not restricted to only having totals, though your right many domestic pv installers go for the cheapest option and unfortunately you get what you pay for. It is really up to the customer to understand what their requirements are and ensure things are installed, would be nice to see more companies selling and installing these systems ensuring the customers understand what they are and are not getting and providing proper advice.
when submitting MCS certificate application you are asked for the serial number and model of the meter, what information should we provide? the inverter details?
@@efixxI was about to ask that question. I’ve submitted the din rail meter serials for the govenergy em115’s before, but I never thought of just putting zeros! 😅
I have recently hat 2 of these meters fitted for on 2 inverters & I'm confused: 1st meter shows NET 48kW (IMP 0.4kW & EXP 48.8kW) 2nd meter shows NET -73kW yes minus! (EXP 10.1kW & IMP 83.2 kW). Any ideas whats going on???🤔
@@efixx Yes I do (sorry I should have said). I should also mention there are ZERO cables/loads connected to the CU yet as the house is undergoing major renovations so no electrics are being used from the CU. The only things connected to the main CU presently is the solar gear (two inverters & one 1 5.8kwh battery) :)
@@rhysj25 but that doesn’t measure generation. If I have a 16A inverter and 16A load, the smart meter will record 0A export. Wouldn’t it make more sense to record the inverter’s serial?
MCS is just a certificate, your SEG supplier will take readings directly from your export register in your smart meter they are not paying you for electricity you self consume like under the old FIT scheme
Can't wait to here all about 'smart' meters! I have quite a few customers with so called smart meters not working and for a year or more. They even changed supplier in the hope of getting it to work but no joy. Yet another half baked Britain triumph.....
Pleased to see that I am not alone in referring to them as "so called smart meters". I have a long list of other names for them, publishing it on here would get me banned from youtube.
Things can be smart and break phones have broken yet they are still technically called smart phones the same goes with these metres most of the time it is energy companies not following manufacturer guidance
Next Question - Do you need to fit a DC Isolator?
ruclips.net/video/2BBCclJuM4I/видео.html
Glad you showed the loft, that's where mine was fitted last year. (next to inverter and batteries)
Never looked at it.
It would be the first question I would ask if there were issues with the solar or battery, just easier to ask the customer about the MID meter,
Absolutely bang on with your GM advice, as confirmed by the MCS techical guru last year 👏.
Yes, there are variables but take the EM115 din rain meter as one example, it's MID so if you have the App then your system is compliant. Plus, I have also found that inverters with built in generation figures are generally in the right ballpark when compared to the Emlite GM's. Keep up the great work Gents 👍
Smart meters can be a practical application because there are many models that can connect to a Wi-Fi network and for their relatively low cost it can add additional monitoring functionality It is also worth knowing that some companies offer independent schemes when they can pay for the energy generated and they require a meter to be installed at the time where the system was so if you want to sign up for any of these things afterwards it can become a problem.
Many of the older FiT ones (like mine) do not have export meters, only an authorised generation one belonging to the house owner, and on a 50% deemed export contract with Ofcom (linked to RPI inflation) via one of the suppliers that manages it. At least, that is true in the absence of a “Smart” meter owned by the utility firm, which is the case at present at my place.
It all depends on your usage, as to whether measure export would be better than 50% generation as deemed export.
I’m just about half way through a 20 year FiT, so I guess it’s possible that a smart meter on the utility side might take over sometime, or if one of the other units fails part way through.
We have to have generation meters for billing purposes, and this has shown up some weird failure modes of inverters. The main one being the inverter says it's producing, say, 3kW but the generation meter shows it's only outputting 2kW. So far the only inverters we've had do that are old ABB ones but that's not to say it can't happen to others. You do also pick it up because the system performs badly, but if you were only going by the numbers on the inverter you wouldn't even notice that.
We've relatively recently moved to using Rayleigh meters which have a lot of positives but one massive negative when we do meter swaps on old FiT registered systems is that the serial number is only written on the back. If you forget to print out a label before you install it, you have to rummage around taking the whole metering panel apart to remove it from the DIN rail. I've no idea why they can't just do what everyone else does and write it on the front.
Great info - thanks Tom!
With smart metering for import/export it doesnt feel like its really needed anymore. Im happy to rely on the mid meters such as the din rail ones on the GivEnergy AIO/Gateway in place of a physical meter of its own right. Less happy to rely on the inverters themselves to give accurate generation data so with a base level solax system as an example we would still fit an external meter. Its a good way to check what the inverter is saying its doing vs whats actually outputting into the wider system. Quick and simple way to check over time what you actually produced. Because we all know when an app loses support or some firmware is updated that data is likely gone to the cloud forever with it lol. Good walk through again Gordon. Didnt know Gary has solar he has never mentioned it.....
Problem is the dumb meters don’t give you any time reference so you can’t really gauge performance overtime. Unless you take a manual reading week / day
Rumour has it Gary has another battery 🔋…. Beware
@@efixx absolutely agree. More to see very quickly since I put my system in its pumped out however many units. Day to day I use the GivEnergy portal which can show me generation output, temperatures of all the equipment, power factor, voltage and what I had for dinner lol. That level of data is insane. The worry is much like when Anderson got into trouble in the EV world is that reliable long term, will it always have support for say a 15 year lifespan. I quite like having the little meter to check now and then. Was very interesting to visit an older system last week that has one for the FIT and that has measured generation since 2010.
@@efixx Gary should really start talking about his solar. It’s like a hidden secret, maybe he should get an air fryer…
@@efixx actually these dumb metres are programmable via an optical interface so if correctly configure that can be retrieved but you have to order them straight from the manufacturer and get millions
Was that a photo of Gary accessing the SunSynk app at the end on both phone and laptop? So that must be 2x10 making it 20 times a day lol. Being just as sad I even graph my data 😵💫.
Having the Sunsynk app, a smart meter and a generation meter it's headbanging that you can't match the figures up. I was told the gen meter tells me (a) Import = what the PV puts in the battery, (b) export = the remainder generated by the PV and (c) Net = simply the difference between the two. But if I add (a) + (b) it is a fair bit lower than the app tells me! As a customer the smart meter tends to give me the most favourable readings. Again I guess the more things there are, the more problems can arise.
How to find the export meter reading ?
Hi great video. Thanks we have always used the inverter second screen we have downstairs to give readings. They now say only readings from solar pv meter accepted and that Is less than the inverter. Why would that be ? Thanks
Agree not required where a energy providers meter captures export too
You keep making the mistake of assuming solar PV installers read anything published by the IET, MCS or Ofgem.
I'm getting solar fitted in the next few weeks. I'm in northern ireland, so the rules are different. my installer says it will just run my old spinning meter backwards, so effectively net metering. He said the electric supplier will try to get me to install a new meter but i can say no, however I want to get the meter moved anyway so i'll let them install a new one if they move it for free.
I doubt the rules are that different, having backward spinning meter would be an issue in mainland UK, and leave you open to financial penalties if discovered (though I have never heard that happening). Some older meters go forward whether you are drawing power or exporting making you pay for your generation too, and some spinning meters have a stop on them to prevent the meter going backwards. All things being equal probably safest to go for a smartmeter and get on a tariff that pays more for export.
@@mikebarry229 can't get smart meters in Northern Ireland. Like they refuse to fit them. Boggles the mind, but I got the export meter fitted just this week so we'll see how it goes
I've been avoiding smart meters for years due to issues on site. However if I want to carry on with E7 I have to get a smart meter my March/April next year due to the BBC ending LW transmission making out Telemeter obsolete.
Good luck 🤞- I’m still battling 3 years later!
Me too. Government guidance clearly says "ideally a smart meter" which according to the energy suppliers means MUST BE A SMART METER. Ofcon told me that a "dumb" meter is perfectly acceptable.!!! I cannot have a so called smart meter at this property and at this time I am dumping my surplus in to a water tank. We have a ten panel system and are low energy users so quite a lot is being wasted which is almost as criminal as the profits made by energy companies during the recent crisis.@@efixx
A few years ago I had to have an old radio teleswitch controlled meter replaced, which was done with a modern one with it’s own built in clock, and a standby battery. Used for E7, permanently on night rate between about 23:36 - 06:36 GMT. It is not a “smart” one. Normally read it myself and plonk the numbers in to my account with the utility firm.
Meter is spelt meter and not metre and practice has a 'c' in the UK not an 's' - otherwise very useful information
Great video! Thanks for the Tag!
No problem
My PV/battery "Generation" meter has been damaged as the installers left one of the screws loose and it's now a bit melted. I'm already getting export payments from my smart meter so if I understand correctly the export meter was only fitted as best practice and is not actually showing anything useful so it could just be removed, I did aske them not to fit it it in the first place.
It depends it could be removed, but in some cases ever changed out, they could add up solar export as well as your usage and require that reading
That wiring diagram for pv to mains is actually not correct if it’s a bi directional meter, which most are now.
MC's are losing members since octopus energy made their announcement with regards taking on none MCs systems. As far as metering for the sack of £30 I still fit them.
Out of interest if a meter is fitted and FIT payments are being received, who owns the meter? And if there is a problem with it who is responsible for repair/ replacement? If it is the consumer would they need to use an MCS installer to carry out any work associated with the meter to maintain their FIT payments?
Customer owns the meter - good question who would replace it. Perhaps a call to OFGEM is needed
Generally, if the serial number of that meter has been recorded, the same protocol would be taken to record the new serial number and document its failure
In the grand scheme of things 30 quid for a meter is a no-brainer, install one every time.
Waste of materials no one ever looks at them. Found one hidden in a cupboard in one house.
@@efixx they are grateful diagnosing issues over the phone and a lot of smart home. People will fit something onto the optical pot to see the usage.
Let's make this simple as it seems you are missing the point. The meter is to record the kW generated by the connect system at the site. Which, is also accepted by the energy co's as it has a known level of accuracy. The inverter does not providing the same level of accuracy. Also, what happens when the inverter is replaced? Or when the inverter manufacturer go bankrupt? All data is lost as it is likely that the inverter model/manufacturer is changed. The placement of the meter shouldn't be in the Roof. It's supposed to be where day light is available. If the installer has placed it wrongly. Then it should fail the MCS cert. A SMART meter may be available however it's not guaranteed. Even now. Your one doesn't work! They also can't tell if you have created the kW via Gen or PV. Hence, the physical meter should be fitted.
Unless it's a old feed in tariff agreement - the meter isn't used by the energy company for payment. Without a smart meter you can't get an export MPAN so are frozen out of the smart tariff. If the inverter fails, then the data will still be available in the app. The "dumb" generation meters, only record an total generation, no data with regards to time or track of performance, so really a useless number. Would be a different case if installers fitted a version with communications.. but most fit the £30 version.
Even with "dumb" meters it really depends on the meter model used, there are many that have capability for adding communications but can be used without that have granular data at configurable intervals similar to what smart meters provide. Your not restricted to only having totals, though your right many domestic pv installers go for the cheapest option and unfortunately you get what you pay for. It is really up to the customer to understand what their requirements are and ensure things are installed, would be nice to see more companies selling and installing these systems ensuring the customers understand what they are and are not getting and providing proper advice.
when submitting MCS certificate application you are asked for the serial number and model of the meter, what information should we provide? the inverter details?
Yes or just put zeros in the form
@@efixxI was about to ask that question. I’ve submitted the din rail meter serials for the govenergy em115’s before, but I never thought of just putting zeros! 😅
Hello sir how are you, sir please tell me, solar inverter 3000 watt how much, where solar inverter shop ,I lived in bolton Manchester England
I have recently hat 2 of these meters fitted for on 2 inverters & I'm confused:
1st meter shows NET 48kW (IMP 0.4kW & EXP 48.8kW)
2nd meter shows NET -73kW yes minus! (EXP 10.1kW & IMP 83.2 kW).
Any ideas whats going on???🤔
Do you have batteries?
@@efixx Yes I do (sorry I should have said). I should also mention there are ZERO cables/loads connected to the CU yet as the house is undergoing major renovations so no electrics are being used from the CU. The only things connected to the main CU presently is the solar gear (two inverters & one 1 5.8kwh battery) :)
Why did Gaz put a meter in his plant room?
He like the industrial 🏭 look! - you should see his bedroom 🫣
@@efixx Has Gaz got a smoke and heat alarm in his plant room?
‘Without the use of. Tool, ladder or torch’ So no fitting in a meter cupboard then…unless the door is missing.
Up sell opportunity - 💡
still waiting for my export mpan number form sp networks G98 from last year, so giving them free electricity from my solar panels
Unfortunately, it can take awhile because they do not generate the number. They have to request it from the government.
You need the meter serial number to register the MCS Certificate unfortunately. Otherwise its completely useless generally😅
Try just putting zeros in the form 😉
Or put the inverter’s serial number
Just put your smart electricity meter serial no. In
@@rhysj25 but that doesn’t measure generation. If I have a 16A inverter and 16A load, the smart meter will record 0A export. Wouldn’t it make more sense to record the inverter’s serial?
MCS is just a certificate, your SEG supplier will take readings directly from your export register in your smart meter they are not paying you for electricity you self consume like under the old FIT scheme
Only 10 times 😂😂😂
😂
Can't wait to here all about 'smart' meters! I have quite a few customers with so called smart meters not working and for a year or more. They even changed supplier in the hope of getting it to work but no joy. Yet another half baked Britain triumph.....
3 years, ombudsman and a court claim win… still - it’s an epic and still not sorted
Pleased to see that I am not alone in referring to them as "so called smart meters". I have a long list of other names for them, publishing it on here would get me banned from youtube.
@@efixxWow same problem here, mine has no signal but no one will even acknowledge I have one let alone fix it
Things can be smart and break phones have broken yet they are still technically called smart phones the same goes with these metres most of the time it is energy companies not following manufacturer guidance
There is a need for window cleaners to expand their business to cherry-pickers for cleaning Photovoltaic systems.
Great idea - we’ll dig out our shammy