Solar Array Oversizing - All the Benefits and Considerations
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- This video looks at a very important topic in solar installation design - solar array oversizing (sometimes called inverter oversizing).
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:47 The benefits of oversizing
4:42 Higher inverter efficiency
5:32 East and West Arrays
6:12 DC coupled batteries
7:15 Quick and easy install
8:40 Less export opportunity
9:29 Lower power output
10:25 How much can you oversize?
11:14 Summary
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#solar #array #oversizing 
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Why is this the first time I hear about the interesting DC and AC battery setup, and of the oversizing of panels? Sounds kinda smart to be honest.
Don't know, but I'm very happy to have brought it to your attention :-)
If you're in the US, it's likely because the Enphase solution is pushed as the best of the best.
Shocking value given for free. so well explained. Gary deserves 20X more subscribers.
Ok, you've made my day already (and it's not even 9am in the UK) - thank you! :-)
was watching from Spain, we're 1-2hrs ahead !@@GaryDoesSolar
T... and you've given me a target! I'll try my best! 🚀
Gary, you'll never get the views you deserve. Stripping naked on instagram, you might !
I think your YT activities help you to sort your thoughts, and you should leverage your work through consulting, or even designing installations for others.@@GaryDoesSolar
We recently installed 31kWp of panels for a house which only had a single phase supply and therefore a limit of 17kW could be connected to the grid, but we were able to use 17kW of SolarEdge inverters and oversize, works really well!
Wow - that's impressive! And it's great to see Artisan Electrics continually demonstrate their immense knowledge and expertise in all the videos you make: ruclips.net/channel/UCUYJhbsrC1bvVWzgUq83K4A
WOW I cant beliive this video has come out today, my system has come online today and my installer recommend a 6KW inverter for my 8.1 kw total panels and 10.5 kW battery system and this video has proved him right.
Fantastic 😀 and good luck with all the solar generation of your system! 👍🏻
great easy video! another positive thing with oversize array is reaching faster the minimum input voltage of the invertor so that helps getting more solarhours usefull
Thank you :-) I did think about adding in about an oversized array meeting the start-up voltage quicker, but actually I don't think it makes that much of a difference to overall generation. I don't have data to show that though - perhaps someone else has....
There is a misconception about the minimum voltage. The panel voltage is not influenced by solar input, only by temperature. In the morning/evening with little sun input the inverter can have trouble starting up, but that’s solely because of the minimal current needed by the inverter, not because of low voltage.
@@SanneHoekstrathanks for that clarification as I was trying to work out how many panels to have in series/parallel. My preference is to parallel panels rather than use optimisers or micro inverters.
@@jameswestcott4191 I’m not a solar installer, just have some electrical background. I would be very careful with parallel solar panels. In that case you have to add up the maximum amperage, that is a bigger fire risk and you would need way thicker wires. I would stick with a series install. Unless you have much shade, you don’t really need optimizers, all panels have bypass diodes to make sure your install will keep working even with some shade now and then.
In series you need to watch the voc of your mppt
Well done! The only thing I think you missed was that oversizing the array also changes the shape of the curve (same orientation) by allowing more production earlier and later in the day, as well as in cloudy conditions. Basically it will produce more earlier and later, adding to total output or area under the curve...
Cheers! And yeah, the start up voltages are lower for a small inverter. I don't know if it makes too much difference though?
I agree, it's not about voltage but more about current. So for the same "light energy " more current is available from the array. So the larger array will have a different shape curve.
@@caritechsolutions9382 Exactly! All things being equal, at any given time the oversized array will make more power, other than when the inverter is clipping at max output. So if you imagine the std array is putting out say 1000W at a say 8AM, the larger array that's 50% larger will be putting out 1500W. This is cumulatively a pretty significant difference and greatly increases the area under the curve if you were to use your diagrams.
Found this excellent channel today. Going to be 8k inv 12k solar ratio in a month. All my upgrades this month are engineered for winter production, 2x 2790w to 3255w, and a new 3300 array PV2 remains at 2790w. As a whole 8370w to 12600w, the 2790's have peaked at 3514w (vertical bifacial) with this set up I expect the 3300 will max at 4000. Overcast winter estimate 3200 watts total and should give me the 14.6 kw I use daily. I dealt with 105 days of overcast and fog. November 2023, 4 hours direct sun for the month, December was 8hrs and January at 13 hours, 3 months 25 hours of direct sun. My inverter was silent for months. In heavy overcast pv2 a 2790 array produces a minimum of 580 watts. Bi facial panels are mini black holes.
Hi Bob, great that you found my channel :-) And thanks for sharing details about your solar installation and performance!
Thank you so much Gary. I have only just discovered your channel with this video. I installed a 5kw array with 5kw inverter a few years ago. My needs have changed dramatically since then. I now have an EV and battery and combined with a pool pump and upcoming heat pump install my system can no longer cope. I’ve been trying to find an inexpensive fix and your video has been a God send. I did not know this was a thing. Oversizing!!!! Wow. I’m a man on a mission now. Many thanks again. I’m now an avid fan and subscriber. So many more of your videos need watching.
Cheers for the kind words 😀 and very happy to have been of help. Hope you find my other videos useful too 👍🏻
I’m planning my own system, and currently working on sizing based on the system input, and panel configuration.
I had come to the same conclusion to over-provision on the PV side, and this video further confirms this industry standard practice.
I’ve been playing around with a single 100W and 400W panel as a proof of concept, and I’ve personally seen examples of everything you’ve described. Thanks!
Great stuff, and thank you 🙏
It was interesting hearing the solar energy requirements in the UK. In the US, most inverters for residential use are sized around 15kw with many being twice that size. A 3kw inverter would be something you would choose for a tiny off-grid cabin. My local utility sets a maximum of 17kw for a grid tied solar system.
Yeah, in the UK the average size of an inverter is 5kW. I like that inverters used in the the US are way bigger :-) Much more useful!
What you described is probably the solution with the highest possible available financial ROI at the moment. We need to supply power in the morning and evening (see duck curve). We do this by placing panels east-west, not toward the equator. It matters little if your setup harvests relatively less power around noon, because power will often be cheap if not free or negatively priced at that moment anyway.
Oversizing works especially well if panels are cheap and inverters are expensive, which seems to be the case. I heard from a source that I consider reliable that panels HALVED in price over the last year. Prices of inverters seem to have changed very little over the same time period.
NB: It’s important to look at your *actual* expected peak power. 25 panels of 400 Wp each placed east-west probably won’t ever actually produce 10 kW, especially if you’re farther from the equator.
If you have a DC-coupled battery you can get even more power out of your inverter.
Great insight, Frank - thanks for sharing! :-)
Very helpful and detailed in an easy to understand way , many thanks.
Cheers Andrew - that's great feedback to receive! :-)
Be sure to get battery storage because selling your excess generation of electricity to the grid can really suck if they buy it from you at 5 cents per but sell it back to you at 40 cents per when you need it from them.
Agreed - although I hope more and more energy providers start to pay a better rate for export. If you think about it, your export goes straight to your neighbours - it highly unlikely to get past the sub-station. And that means the grid doesn't have to both supply (and more importantly, transmit) that same power to your neighbours. Everybody wins, in my view :-)
Very interesting , good for you .More people will take up solar when they see simplistic explanations of the solar power available . I installed 28x 400w panels at latitude angle with 2x 6000ES + inverters and 3x 9.6kw Li batteries . The result is an abundance of power on a daily basis . The system has been running for 20 months now and I am always looking for more appliances too use up the surplus. 1 inverter had a charging failure which meant that the 2nd inverter had to handle all the charging and loads . It coped well with this , thus qualifying your ( and my ) theory on over panelling . Panels have never been cheaper I encourage those looking into a PV system to add more panels than the energy audit suggests .
Thanks, and great advice for everyone! :-)
This is a GREAT information! Thanks for posting. 😃
You're most welcome, Tom - great to hear it was useful to you! Cheers, Gary :-)
Very informative. Thank you for your video!
You're most welcome - thank you! :-)
Very informative, thank you.
Cheers for taking the time to let me know - I'll keep the videos coming... :-)
Nice one Gary, your videos keep just getting better. And now great T-shirts too!
Thanks Chas :-) Yeah, I'm trying to incrementally improve aspects with each video - hard work but worth it! Glad you like the T-shirt - the reason I got one is really so I don't have to spend time choosing what I'm going to wear for a video! Lol
Thank you Gary , your videos have helped me out so much.
You're most welcome. Very happy to have been of some help to you! :-)
THANKS FOR THE WONDERFUL AND SIMPLIFIED EXPRESSION. SO INFORMATIVE AND EDUCATIVE FOR A NON ENGINEER LIKE ME.
Hi Vijay, it is my pleasure - thanks for the great feedback! :-)
First time I see one of your videos. Congratulations for such a clear and great video. I subscribed right away!
Thanks very much! Great to hear - and I'll keep the videos coming...
Learned some new things about solar energy. Thanks!
Great to hear! And you're most welcome! :-)
This is a great video. You explain things so well, and the graphics are excellent. Thank you so much.
That's really kind of you to say, thank you! :-)
Fantastic explanation 👏👏👏👏👏
I'm humbled - thanks for this great feedback, Jacques :-)
Excellent video, I plan to make additions with this in mind
Thanks and great stuff! 😀👍🏻
Good to see someone 'focus' in on the issues
Haha - thanks - I managed to get my iPhone camera to behave itself this time! :-)
Thanks Gary, I must admit I thought i knew what you were going to say and I got some of it right, but you made many more points than I expected.. Excellent video content and delivery.
Thanks. And great to hear you're already well up on the topic! Hope the video helps a lot of people when deciding what size of array and inverter... :-)
Absolutely agree, oversize your array, but don’t undersize your inverter. Once you have solar you’ll find places to send any excess generation, be it to the grid, batteries, hot water, aircon or car. I doubt that most households would be able to produce more energy than they could consume
The great thing about the whole electric ecosystem (at the moment in UK) is the export rate of 15p vs 7.5p import, meaning the right setup could give you zero bills by producing 55% (including losses) of your annual usage
Brilliant! :-)
Very good video, thank you
Cheers! :-) It seems to be quite a popular one too! I'm very happy
Good info thanks
You're most welcome - thanks for the great feedback!
Excellent video.
You're most welcome - thanks for taking the time to watch it :-)
Thank you for the video
You're most welcome 👍🏻
thanks this was well explained !
That’s really great feedback - thank you 🙏
Hi Gary, OK I understand. Thanks for your reply. Regards Mark
No problem - hope the link is useful to you
Fantastic video!
Thank you - glad it was useful! :-)
Thanks for this Gary. I am now going to check if I can fit extra panels as in their current configuration I am maxed out.
My pleasure, and good luck! 😀👍🏻
Excellent; had to sub.
Thank you! :-)
just brilliant info guv'
Thank you! 🙏 😀
Another super interesting informative video Gary. I oversized my array, 9.6kW on a 7kW inverter and 9.4kW battery split across two roofs. So makes alot of sense to maximise generation from the roof space we have without a bigger inverter
Hi Rob, thanks for your kind words about the video. And great to hear your arrays are working well for you 👍🏻 😀 oversizing is fab!
very informative
Cheers! 😀
Great video again! I am seriously started thinking I should really replace my 450w panels to 550w.
Wow - 450W is pretty good already, but with solar panel prices falling recently, if you can get the same dimensions, then why ever not? Good luck! 😃
Interesting video. Had solar for 13 years now great investment. One thing you didn’t mention the other big killer is temperature. Cold sunny day in December can giver way more peak than you would expect where as peak output an a 33 deg day can be disappointing. Last year on the 40 deg days power was way down.
That's a great point to make, John, and I'm not sure many people are aware.
UK NW England. Install on SE facing roof.
System: 6.2KWp + 5KW inverter + 13KWh battery. Had to hand £600 to DNO for sign off, but otherwise happy. We generate 6MWh/year.
Good analysis. More winter power when you really need it. In summer too much power to use.
Thanks Nick - and wow, that was quite a price to pay for the G99!! Great generation! :-)
Absolutely correct, even with microinverters. The peak is clipped but area under the curve is still larger.
The objection of course is the higher initial cost but ROI could be quicker.
True
excellent
Thank you! :-)
well said, brother... I'm kinda new at this solar thing, and I had a hunch that getting the max output of power was literally - a moving target. On "paper" it's a static number, but in real-life, there are many variables and most of them are in constant movement. Kinda like going duck hunting with a bee-bee gun and not a shot gun. Greg (garden grove, CA)
Hi Greg - thank you for taking the time to comment, and glad that my videos are useful to you! You're not wrong about trying calculate max power - haha!
Thank you very much, Gary. Your videos are the best classes on RUclips on this subject. I would like to take this opportunity to send a question:
Do you think that adjusting the tilt of the panels, to maximize winter production, could be a good strategy to minimize clipping on an inverter overloaded by 150%? Would this strategy bring more overall efficiency?
I haven't been able to find studies on this strategy yet...
Thanks very much for this great feedback - very much appreciated :-)
Now, are you talking about a ground array (easier to change the tilt twice a year, say) or a roof mount (all sorts of complications including access)?
It is a ground array, but not easy to change the tilt… I will not change It.
This is a great video and extremely informative well scripted, videography was great and the information was accurate and well spoken to the targeted audience.
Also it highlights some of the issues I have with solar power being pushed so hard. Firstly I think that solar is a wonderful thing there is no argument there at all, none, however storage is less than optimal and expensive. Then the very folks (read the government) that push the solar alternative charge you exorbitant fees to add solar above some prescribed rating to your home. Then the insult to that injury is that the folks that push the solar (read the government) on you regulate the amount of income you can receive from the power company for excess electricity that you, using the equipment bought, paid for and installed by you, kindly sell back to the grid for your neighbors usage.
If you step back and take a zoomed out view, instead of the myopic view of solar is so great and I am doing something great for the planet, then you can see that something is just not right at all with the "solar plan" the government makes, if it is needed so badly why charge crazy fees for the licensing above a certain size, the licensing for the installation, the taxes on the equipment and taxs and fees for the re-selling back to the grid?
And yes I understand the need for electrical qualified electrical installations that are inspected by those very folks. (read the government) (humor here).
Where I live there are no restrictions for solar you can add as much as your wallet allows, but I used 390 kwh of electricity last month so my 50 dollar electric bill does not make me want to install $10k worth of solar panels, inverter, solar battery managers and batteries to drop the grid.
The perfect solution was fielded by Musk at one time, electrical co-ops, where you and nine other neighbors (10 being an arbitrary number) were the entire 'grid' for yourselves. 10 homes with this oversized solar like in the video, a centralized 10 Powerwall system and 10 inverters, one in each home. No power back the real grid, and everyone shares the benefits and the costs.
Thanks for the kind words, Jim. And also for your insightful thoughts!
Completely compelling truths. Thanks Gary
Thank you! :-)
Gary, Thank you for another fine video. Two years ago I increased my system from 12 kW to 15 kW in anticipation of my purchase of an EV. I did this on the recommendation of my excellent solar contractor/electrician. Since my SolarEdge inverter is 10 kW I’ve been wondering if the oversizing contributed to the premature failure of the inverter. You read my mind and put that concern to rest.
Thanks for the great feedback on the video, Richard... and happy to put your mind at rest :-)
It pays to know the product before adding more panels. Usually there is a spec that says maximum amps allowed from the PV and it will be a bit beyond the normal operating range. Don't exceed that rating. Particularly for chargers (standalone or inverter/chargers) the better ones will detect over voltage on the battery side and can take action to force charging current off hard by shorting the PV to handle situations where the charging circuit fails and supplies uncontrolled current to the battery system. Even the ones that have PV relays can have this. Too many amps = damaged 'shorting circuit' and all the possible failure modes that stem from that.
@@retrozmachine1189 This is certainly the value of a good installer 👍
Thanks thinking about making the jump your videos are very informative, can I ask what does this mean for a enphase your system with microinveterrs and AC system + battery
You're most welcome - thank you for the kind words :-)
See my comment to @andyb8268 next to yours. Enphase wants me to interview them for a video shortly, so I'll try to cover this with a question...
Another great video Gary, thanks.
My array is 6.8kWp on a 5kVA (4.4kW) inverter (55% oversized) and tbh I would have installed more PV capacity if I could have fitted it on my roof. It's a DC coupled Victron system with 14.4kWh of Pylontech batteries so I can avoid clipping most of the time. I'm also based in central Scotland and although my roof is facing 184 degrees, the pitch is just 14 degrees so it's unlikely I would see 6.8kW from the array even in summer. So far I've seen 6.3kW max in mid July so I hope to see a bit more than that in late May or early June but I doubt I'll see 6.8kW. In fact my Victron MPPT charge controllers are 250/60 units (2 of them) and although they are spec'd at 3440w each, with my charge voltage of 53.2V, my theoretical max would be something like 6384w total (53.2*60*2).
I am considering adding an AC coupled non-hybrid inverter with four or five 435w panels mounted vertically to my south facing garage wall as a "winter array" to boost my generation. This would be a more cost effective way to add some extra capacity for the winter months than adding another MPPT and having to run DC cabling all the way back to my inverter and battery location. I could just hook it up to the garage consumer unit instead. I might even add a few extra panels to the east and west gables of the garage and use optimisers to allow them to work with a single inverter. A project for later in the year I think. :)
Thanks for sharing this info about your system, Craig - sounds great! And always a good thing to add more panels if you’re able - all the best with it 👍🏻
Hi Gary, Thanks, that's very informative. Re the inverter efficiency @5:00, are there figures for this? Also, AIUI inverters with different AC output ratings may have the same internal DC capability. I'm thinking of the GivEnergy Hybrids where 3.6 and 5kW inverters both have the same 7.5KW DC capability, so they can simultaneously export 3.6kW AC and charge a DC battery. Presumably the efficiency of these would be identical?
You're very welcome. I don't have efficiency figures myself (just statements from inverter manufacturers that I've read). Your final question is a good one to ask on a GivEnergy forum...
Hi Gary. Thanks for the great info.
Can you please list the inverter size of tesla PW3 and PW2? If I am installing 9.72KW of solar array which Powerwall is a better fit? Thank you so much for your time!
You're most welcome, Keerthi. There's a link in the description that takes your to the data sheet, which should provide you with what you're looking for.
A very good video again Gary. I have a SSE facing rear of house (semi detached) and have maxed out roof space. I asked installer about wall mounted panels and front of house NNW facing and they advised against the latter and didn't do the former. As I understand it north-facing panels are not bothered with because they only produce 50% of south facing panels. This ruled them out ten years ago but now that panels are considerably cheaper and more productive should we be taking a look at this option?
Thanks Tony - and yeah, I can't believe how much panel prices have dropped over the last few months. A chance to stick up panels everywhere and anywhere! :-)
I have 1.5kw of older "ex solar farm" panels (6x250w) that I got extremely cheap. Approx 7 years old.
Using a 1600w
Micro inverter and all panels in parallel on my west facing wall, they produce very little in nov/dec/Jan but will give a lovely boost in late evenings for the 4-7pm octopus flux export slot 😊
In my country you only get the government grant if you export less than 20% of the energy produced. Over-sizing can get you in trouble. Since I stop working from home and bought more efficient appliances I'm finding harder to consume all that electricity, by this summer I guess I'll have the car plug in everyday to use that 80%
Hi Samu, which country is that? I guess they don't want to much export then! And yeah, it puts a lot of pressure on you to try and consume all that energy!
Thanks Gary, glad you addressed this.
I have two systems a SE 6.4kW and an Outback 7.2kW. My grid provider doesn't give its members net metering, they buy all the electricity we produce at wholesale and sell us energy at retail. They also have a max that you can sell them at 15kW. What I've done is put in 17k of PV and even though I only can sell them 13.6kW.
On over cast days I make enough to charge my batteries and on sunny days my curve production curve is flatter. Because PV is so cheap now it pays to do this and also enables me to run with a smaller battery bank, which in my case is 15kWh.
That's just brilliant - I love the way how you've essentially maximised matters around the constraints :-)
I had a lot of problems when getting quotes with " one size fits all" installers who didn't wan to install mix of orientations or different orientations on different roofs and who basically said "Local Network won't agree feed in over 3.6kW ever so you get a 3.6kW inverter ( irrespective of the fact Feed-in power can be set to the right limit ) and 4kW max panels, when I was looking to put 6kW over 3 roofs E S and W to spread the generation period as much as possible. Needless to say none of those numpties ( often sales people with a working knowledge of google earth and not much more ) got the job.
Yeah, this is why I started the channel in the first place - when I was researching solar, the amount of misinformation out there was wild! And installers would say just about anything to secure a sale. I'm hoping that my videos are educating people enough so that installers feel they can't pull the wool over people's eyes any more :-)
I took my perfectly successful solar energy business and threw it out the window and quit simply because I was competing up against a bunch of yahoos!
@@user-ke9yk5qp3u This feels like a bitter comment. What was the name of your business, and I'll do some research - a "perfectly successful solar energy business" is self-sustaining in a fast growing market...
Perfect - we do exactly the same on a DC coupled system mainly for winter shortfall (adjustable array), just be a bit careful as summer yields even inthe the UK, can be 10x what you expect, so stuff can get very hot quickly - we may do a G99 as currently just do off-grid - but even with OE at 15p/Kwh export (upto £1k / pa????), i'm not sure that its worthwhile? - having said all this I'm just configuring my system for VE Dynamic ESS (and G99 approval) for possible use with OE
Sounds great! Thanks for sharing this - will help others!
Shot in the dark, Have you ever looked into wind and solar as an option? I've just had solar installed to provide energy to our property and I'm just starting to experiment with a small turbine to provide power to my workshop albeit just lighting for now.
Hi Graham, now, wind generation is certainly an option that many are starting to look at, to compliment solar. But (unfortunately) there are a number of factors that limit it’s viability in consumer applications:
- Wind turbines are not quiet - worse, the noise varies with the wind strength, could drive any neighbours close by insane.
- They are also nothing like solar panels in terms of reliability - you might find you’re spending a fair amount of time, money and effort keeping them going.
- And they’re expensive. Like really expensive for one that generates even just a few kW.
- Also watch out for the advertising. Some retailers talk in terms of kW (power) when they’re actually taking about kWh (energy) - even a cheap 30cm diameter turbine will generate 20kWh given enough time!
I added panels to my house to get east & west generation but used a micro inverter on each panel.
Yes, microinverters are great examples or array oversizing on a per-panel basis ❤️
Interesting video! Im planning to buy an Deye 12kw inverter, the price difference wasn't that high but i actually only need an 8kw one. Is the efficiency a big problem here? I have 5.6kwp at west and east orientation (makes for theoratical max 8kw peak). The deye handles a max of 15kw solar input.
Hi Erik, I'm not in a position to offer individual advice, unfortunately - but it's a great question to ask on a solar forum, like this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466
Thanks for the info, I just subscribed. Where we are in July and August we can get up to 50 Celsius. Does this damage the panels in any way?
Hi Alice - you're most welcome, and thanks for subscribing :-)
I checked this website, and it appears that your solar panels can still operate at 85 degrees (although they won't be operating as efficiently):
www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/too-hot-for-solar-panels
@@GaryDoesSolar many thanks Gary for checking this out for me.
Hi Gary,thanks great video.Can you maybe enlighten me,what is the solar maximum size on a 5kw inverter,as i understand the voltage is the biggest issue.Will apreciatre your input.Im from South Africa
So, this is a question you'll need to ask the inverter manufacturer or your installer, as they're all different.
Thanks for the kind words about the video :-)
Hi Gary thanks for the reply,i actually want to know,i have a deye 5kw and it states that the max pv is 6500w,17amp.What i wanna know does it matter if i use 550w panel,that panels state that it has a cs amps of 13.Will this be fine for the inverter?
@@johanerasmus6721 Thanks for supplying the extra detail. This is definitely a question for your installer, I'm afraid. It's not one I can answer, sorry :-(
😊 This is the 1st video of yours I've seen. Very interesting. I'd like to learn what ever difference there woukd be if not a house. But a flat roof recreational vehicle. In the US, there isn't a rule saying you can't take a solar array to the edges of an rv roof. But, for the most part, they are going to be parallel to the ground. Don't think there is any restrictions on sizing an inverter on an rv either.
Thanks, Edward. Now I don’t know too much about the intricacies of flat roof installations in RVs etc. but I’d imagine there will be people out there on RUclips with videos on that 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar This vid is the first one I've seen that addressed sizing the solar output vs. the inverter.
Hello Gary,
I'm having trouble finding an inverter in the 15-20KW range that supports Low Voltage batteries.
When you're in this range are all inverters designed for High Voltage batteries?
Not sure which country you're in, but it's a great question to ask in a solar forum, like this one: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466 Good luck!
Agree with all the point you make Gary, except for the one about dirty panels reducing power output.
My own personal experience, I’ve had a 4kW FIT array since 2016. Every year annual generation has been around 3mW, some years more, some years less. I’ve seen no obvious degradation due to dirty panels (or panel ageing); the panels had never been cleaned until last January when we had scaffolding up to install our new 10kW array. There was a bit of lichen in a couple of spots but the panels were pretty clean considering. I’ve read that they do generally keep themselves clean with rain and wind, and that’s been my experience.
Of course if you’re heavily overshadowed by trees or birds dropping on the panels then yes a potential issue, but then you’ve got other shading problems as well
Dirty panels is not a problem in the wet and windy UK, here in southern Spain we have a lot of dust, and rarely sand laden rain from north Afrika and very little rain at other times
That’s great, Geoffrey - and I’m noticing the same with my panels. I thought I’d have to clean them regularly (bird mess etc.) but with the regular rain, the panels self-clean 😀 Countries with less rain might have a dust issue over time though…
Yes fair comment about dusty and less rainy countries. I was thinking from personal wet UK experience.
But to caveat the "no issue with dirty panels message", when we had the extra panels fitted last year, as they filled in the gaps on the rear roof, one new panel was underneath the TV aerial and within a couple of weeks the panel was covered in bird poo. Had to go up on the roof, fit bird spikes and wash the panel
mW is not a unit of energy. It is a unit of power. So 3,000 kWh per year would be a proper way to express that.
@@user-ke9yk5qp3u there seems to be plenty of websites explaining what a megawatt hour is. I should have written it as 3MWh though (capital M). I wrote it that way because it makes me feel like a big electricity generator 🤣
3000kWh is just as good
Hi Gary, fantastic video. I have solar panels and battery. I live in Scotland, can I try wind energy? Which one do you suggest?
You’re most welcome 🙏
Now, wind generation is certainly an option that many are starting to look at, to compliment solar. But (unfortunately) there are a number of factors that limit it’s viability in consumer applications:
Wind turbines are not quiet - worse, the noise varies with the wind strength, could drive any neighbours close by insane.
They are also nothing like solar panels in terms of reliability - you might find you’re spending a fair amount of time, money and effort keeping them going.
And they’re expensive. Like really expensive for one that generates even just a few kW.
Also watch out for the advertising. Some retailers talk in terms of kW (power) when they’re actually taking about kWh (energy) - even a cheap 30cm diameter turbine will generate 20kWh given enough time!
Hope this helps.
Yeah, i dont have real proove of that too but i keep wonder how much that differs, maybe in days with terrible wetter when a invertor keep switching on and off
If I find out anything, I'll let you know... :-)
Hi Gary. Hopefully fitting my new solis hybrid inverter and batteries on Friday. My final array will mostly be East and West orientation but after my extension is built i will have the opportunity to add 2 more panels facing South.. if i add the 2 South facing panels to my east facing panels at the end of the string and just before the inverter, will it create shading to the East facing panels or is it ok because its the last 2 panels before the inverter !! Regards Mark
My final array will be 8kw of panels and a 6kw solis inverter. Am hoping to maximise the power production as early as possible and as long as possible in a day to take advantage of the Octopus flux tariff and the charge and discharge of my batteries.. regards Mark
Hi Mark, unfortunately, l'm not in a position to provide individual advice (not least because of potential liability issues, even if that advice is given free - such is the world today). You're best to speak to an installer for such advice, or post a comment onto a solar forum (e.g. this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
I've a 6kw Solis inverter and 18 PV 370 watt Panels, is that over sized,had 14 Panels last year,but had the extra ones fitted this month, seams to be a improvement in generation on the odd days we've had a bit of Sun 🌞
That's great to hear, Ian. And hopefully further improvements as the year goes on! All the best :-)
I've oversized my system and designed it around winter. I've got 3 x more panels than my charge controllers can process. I've designed it for dark and cloudy days. So high voltage strings in parallel, to get the most from Mppt. I built a ground array facing south.
I live offgrid in Sweden. I've got my panels aimed for the winter sun. Also, the steep angle helps keep snow off, but after every snow fall I still need to go out and scrape off snow. That saying, in the sommer my batteries are usually full by the time I get up in the morning. I'm not worried about the bad solar panel sommer angle as I have such long daylight hours. Also in sommer I turn off most of my strings.
I run 12V for everything, but have a 3kW inverter I can put on when I need, mostly for the washing machine, (always run with only cold water and 40min cycle)
It works for me.
Sounds like a workable solution 👍🏻
Hello. Did you say you have 3x the amount of panels for your charger? I thought each string has a max amount of input from panels coming in and to not go over that amount or it will compromise the inverters performance? What do you say on this Gary? Also, greenbymoon, what brand and size inverters do you have with how many panels in what wattage? Thank you.
@@lindaferguson593 I don't have a permanent inverter running, as I'm using a full 12V system for everything in my offgrid house, which is about 40m².
I have a Giandel 4000w 12V Pure Sine Wave Inverter I use to run my washing machine for 28 min about every 10 days when I have sunlight.
I have 18, 335W solar panels set up in 3 parallel and 5 strings, each string on its own DC circuit breaker.
I have all turned on during what I call the dark season here in Sweden, Oct to end Dec. Then the snow falls and albedo effect starts making a big difference.
I start turning off strings as my light level increases, in Sommer I run just 1 string and my battery is full when I wake.
I get sunlight in sommer from 0300 to 2300. Winter 0900 to 1430
@@greenbimoon wow!!! Amazing!!!
@greenbimoon what is 40m 2? In square feet? Also, do you heat with wood? Thank you.
Greetings. Congrats for the video. I didn't know the benefits of oversizing. I was amazed. I have a growatt spf 6000 es plus. Now I have 12 sunket stk410M10 panels in series for
One MPPT. If I don't bother you, can you tell me how many panels I can install at most? I'm sorry for the bad English. Google. Translator
Greetings from Italy
Thank you - you're most welcome! Unfortunately, I'm not set up to provide individual advice, but it's worth you reaching out to an installer and getting their view on what you'd like to do...
Great info Gary, but you are missing one key variable; what I like to call “spousal unpredictably quotient”, which led me to installing an inverter and battery combination that can output 10kW with a 3kW array to deal with the unpredictable nature of our consumption curve.
My wife says she'll use what she wants, when she wants, and I have to work around that... I may need a larger inverter after all then! ;-)
Thank you for your valuable video. Would you see similar benefits of oversizing array using ENPHASE micro inverters? Perhaps one of your others videos is about that?
Regards
You’re most welcome. I made this video last year on micro inverters, which you might like to watch: ruclips.net/video/q6t0AAi5Jws/видео.html
And I hoping to release a video interview with Enphase very soon 👍🏻
Thank you very much for quick respond. I look forward to enphase video.@@GaryDoesSolar
Gary, what is your recommendation for people considering adding to their existing array when they are receiving FIT payments? My understanding is that they could potentially lose their payments because their system has been changed from the original and when submitting quarterly generation meter readings they make a declaration that the system has not been changed. Is it to use either a second inverter or micro inverters with the extra panels and connect directly into the distribution panel without going through the generation meter? Thanks
Hi there. This might answer your questions re. the UK feed-in-tariff scheme (which unfortunately has been closed to new applications for some years now). You'll need to join the group in order to access the information: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466/permalink/6080359505319753/
Agree this is also my experience from my oversized system since 10 years. No problems so far but we live in a cold climate Sweden .
That's really great to hear, Peter - thanks for sharing. I love Sweden :-)
What system components do you have?
@@lindaferguson593 64 panels 250 watt, one three phase inverter 6 kW and three one phase inverters that are 2 kW each. All from China. Next step is to install a battery 10 kW. But I must say that today I would not buy from China. Dictators like Xi and Putin are dangerous and I do try avoiding giving my money to dictators, rather pay more and buy from inside EU or from North America.
@@peteroffpist1621 thank you.
@peteroffpist1621 do you have batteries already installed with your existing components for night time use?
I have a Victron inverter and charge controllers, what I did was lower the percentage on the charge controllers (by software) to keep from getting too close to the maximum input for solar!
I didn't know that was possible. Did it help?
@@GaryDoesSolar
I’m no expert but it kept it from going over 100 A which was my goal! I took from the peak of the summer, and then figured the rest of the year was a breeze, as it would never get over 100 A. So basically, my charge controllers are set at 85%.
Thanks for the video, i was looking into solar as an option 8kwp with a 6kw inverter and a battery bank, most likely ac coupled to allow for expansion. Though now i have been trying to research microinverters supplying AC straight from the panels - from my understanding this would mean the G99 set as the kwp, with the bonus of no clipping along. Aside from the initial cost would there be any other downfalls? Or has anyone got any real life feedback on microinverters?
Thinki just posted a similar question
@@harvyd1967 well hopefully that’s a sign it’s a good idea!
I was thinking about, but decided against talking about oversizing in microinverters as well. Essentially, they're the same thing but on a per-panel scale - the same principles in the video apply. The panel might be, say, 400W and the microinverter (e.g. Enphase IQ7+) might be 290W. That's a 133% oversizing.
@@GaryDoesSolar that’s a good point and item to look, so the clipping essentially occurs at the panel itself.
My 8 420 w panels have a theatrical max of 3.36kw, i have seen 3.5kw, but on hot days of 30 deg plus i only see 2.6 kw, had i known this i would have squeezed in another 2 panels!
Yeah, you can never have enough panels!!! :-) :-)
5:50 east west is nice as most inverters are dual mppt input so each side,note there is now g99 fast track if under 7.6kw ish (32amps) usually approval time is much shorter (The general issue is a lot of solar installers won’t do it because they just wanna make quick money)
Thanks. I’ll check out the G99 fast track (under 7.6kW) - I wasn’t aware….
@@GaryDoesSolar as long as its not more then 32A (7.6kw clipped inverter I think) it's usually less then 30 days (unfortunately some DNOs are not as nice to work with for g99 and force a 16A g100 device so you need battery storage system to get the most out of your install)
might be more hops if it's past 32A total install and max total generation is 60A per phase if you have Mutiple inverters (usually require a g100 limiting device so generation power can be cut off when DNO requires it)
If you look for g99 fast track + your area DNO there are quite a number of sites
when looking for installers including g99 in search should filter it down to a smaller amount installers who are willing to work with DNO to submit the correct paper work
I think this makes sense from a purely more energy collection perspective but not from an ROI perspective, as any wasted potential energy is an increase in the ROI time for money you paid and energy that could have been collected but wasn't. Unless the savings from a smaller inverter cancel out the cost of the extra panels which I don't think is the case.
I don’t know - I guess calculations would have to be able in each particular situation. Solar panels are very inexpensive these days, so why not have as big array as possible?
Hi first time watching your videos and found this very interesting.. I currently have 3kw of panels facing east and a 3kw inverter. When I can afford it I am going to get another 3kw of panels facing west. I also have several 2.4 pylontech batteries that I plan to add before summer. I have a 4kw Solax hybrid inverter and thought I would need to buy a bigger inverter (6kw).. sooo, can I actually use safely my 4kw hybrid inverter with 6kw of panels and several 2.4 pylontech batteries !! Regards Mark
Hi Mark, thanks for watching my videos - and I hope they're useful to you! Check with your manufacturers regarding the maximum oversizing ratio, but it looks like you should be ok. All the best!
Hi Gary, many thanks for your reply.. all the best
Thanks for your video Gary; very informative. Pardon me but I am a total noob who has just had his first Sunsynk 8kw installed at his home. I heard the installers speak about the voltage limit on the inbuilt dual MPPTs as something that will limit the size of our array to around 8,4kw. The MPPT are apparently limited to 450v and the array cannot exceed that per string. Can you be kind enough to comment on that?
You're most welcome. Now, I don't have any experience of SunSynk equipment, but it's worth signing up to this Facebook group, where you could ask those kinds of questions. Lots of support there... good luck! facebook.com/groups/571819024654208
@GaryDoesSolar Thanks for your prompt and kind response.
I have a question with regard to your example. If after the sun goes down one ends up using 9kWh due to cooking, ac and other passive use, does that mean that you will have to pull 3kWh from the grid
So, if there's no sun anymore, then the only non-grid source of energy will be from your battery. And the rate at which you can extract that power is limited by the discharge rate of the battery itself, and the inverter limit if that battery is DC Coupled. So if the inverter limit is 6kW and the DC Coupled battery discharge rate is 3kW, and you're using 9kW for cooking, you'll need 6kW from the grid.
@@GaryDoesSolar so 4 x 5.1kW will push out 8kWh subject to an 8kW inverter
(Newbie) Doesn't it mainly restrict you to the OCV limitations of your inverter? Is not the smaller the wattage of an inverter have smaller OCV limits?
Oh crikey - I don't actually know the answer to that. Maybe someone else does...? I may have to do some further research...
Each inverter will have a maximum voltage limitation. E.g sungrow 5kw hybrid inverter is 600v so depending on the solar panel voltage this will be the limitation although other factors also come into play such as voc at stc, panel temp coefficient at voc, minimum temp in the area and number of panels in a string.
@@jameshind6644 I guess I should have said VOC instead of OCV though I think they mean the same thing. My puny little inverter/charger I'm starting with has a VOC range of 120-450 but it only has a max PV input of 13A. My panels put out 13.92 ISC (short circuit current) so I am forced to run them in series. I am .92 over so I hope it does not eventually fry the thing. All these different abbreviations are confusing but I think I'll eventually get it.
Considering how cheap solar panels are getting, it makes more sense to oversize your system if you have the space to accommodate it, it will help to generate more energy in the winter months when you're likely to generate less, it will mean you will likely generate more then you need in summer months, but who cares, you want to try and generate as much as you can in the winter months, and if you are grid connected, you can sell the excess energy to the grid or store it in batteries.
Solar panels are so cheap now, especially in Europe, that oversizing makes a lot more sense
Agreed 👍🏻
We have 6.4kWp panels feeding a 5kW Solar Edge inverter with Tesla Powerwall 2. The inverter frequently clips during summer, and every time I look at that flat-topped curve I can't help but wish we had gone for a 6kW inverter. It would have cost little more and given us more energy.
Worth using the solar modelling utility mentioned in the video to see what you would have gained. Maybe not as much as you might think?
Thanks for this informative video.
I'm under the impression that a larger inverter can recharge DC batteries from the grid quicker and this is becoming more beneficial as people are installing larger battery banks on their homes.
Any thoughts about this aspect?
All batteries have a maximum charge rate so just make sure that you pay attention to that as the limiting factor.
@@user-ke9yk5qp3ufor example. GivEnergy 9.5 can charge and discharge at 80A but the 3.6 and 5kW hybrid inverters can only charge at 65A.
In this case, despite what size solar array you have, you may choose to go to a SunSynk hybrid inverter to gain that extra charging speed to suit your time of use strategy.
Especially relevant for those who have 2 or 3 batteries in parallel.
You're most welcome, and as it happens, I've been watching and recommending your heat pump installation videos :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar well it is a small world. I've been box set binging my way through your back catalogue to get myself fully up to speed on solar panels and home batteries.
I haven't found anyone as informative and comprehensive about the sector so keep up the great work! 👍
@@UpsideDownFork Thank you - that's really kind of you to say 😊 I'll keep the videos coming...
Hi Gary, I'm a Gary too. We're building a house shortly. Unfortunately being on a lake, view is determining position of the home over Solar. That said, we're optimizing the roof for Solar as much as possible. The home is L shaped, presenting both an east west and north south gables. Was considering changing the North South Gable to a Shed roof. The Gables are going to be 8/12 pitch this puts the panels at a favorable angle for our location. Spokane WA, the shed roof, to be ascetically pleasing, would need to be about 4/12 pitch. Much to flat, especially for winter months in our area for Solar panels.
Do you think it would be better to have the flatter roof with twice the panels. Or a steeper roof with half the panels? We are also not allowing plumbers and HVAC folks to put the vents anywhere they want. The roof is to stay clear for Solar ! As we will be on one for one, Net Metering and with the lower cost of Panels these days. I plan to Carpet bomb the house with as many panels as it can hold. We will have all winter to use any extra power, as the Net Metering does not reset till March. Which is early Spring in our location.
Would love to hear your deep dive into this and the ins and outs of maintaining Solar panels on steep roofs. 8/12 is not easy to maneuver for cleaning panels but steeper may lend itself to keeping pine needles and leaves off. Look forward to your 2 cents!
Hi Gary, I'd love to help, but unfortunately, I'm not set up, nor insured, to provide consultancy (free or otherwise). Definitely worth getting an installer or two involved to provide you with options and relative benefits of each. Good luck!
@@GaryDoesSolar was not asking for professional assistance. I already have the answers. It was more a topic suggestion for you.
@@Useitorloseit1 Ah, ok - got it - thank you 👍
Hi Gary We are allowed to export 3.68 kw. Is this per hour or per day? Also what happens in the summer say when you are generating excess electricity - batteries are full and you are restricted on the amount you can export to the grid. Thanks Mike
Hi Mike, this is actually a real-time value of power. Like putting your kettle on would draw 2kW from the grid, but only for the time the kettle is on. It's the same going the other way - you can export up to 3.68kW of power at anytime in the day, but not any more than that.
What size is your array and battery? It's likely that you wouldn't be exporting more than 3.68kW at any time anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.
@@GaryDoesSolar Hi Gary Thanks for your reply. I now understand. We have a Solax system- Batteries 3 giving 17.4kwh, Inverter 6kw. The panels are Jinko tiger neo 18 in total, 420w per panel with optimisers. Kr Mike
@@mikeattenborough-cox1024 That's a pretty good setup, Mike! Maybe a heat pump next? That would certainly soak up any excess solar! 🙂
@@GaryDoesSolar Good Morning Gary, We had an air source heat fitted 7 years ago and WOULD NOT recommend having one fitted. Ours is a hybrid system an oil fired boiler (we have no gas in the village) kicks in when temperatures drop to below 5 degrees. When electricity cost rocketed, 2022/23, we ended up with an annual bill of £7000. The air pump broke down and to have heating this year the engineer switched the electrics to use the oil boiler. With the solar panels, fitted August 2023 we spent £100 on heating oil over the winter and on average £1.26 a day on electricity after deducting exporting to the grid!!! We are looking to see if we can make heating system more flexible by being able to switch between the air source heat pump and the oil fired boiler. Kr Mike
Timely. I'm in the process of getting a 5Kw inverter with 9kW panels. However the panels are in two locations and one set will be from partially to mostly shaded (there will be optimisers) from maybe 1pm onwards, so that only for a few hours in summer will i get the full 9KW (If ever as maybe I won't get the max before the shading on the "shaded" section starts) Also as I'm in the UK this depends on DNO approval as (as you explain) a G99 has to be applied for.
One other benefit of oversizing is that rather than getting a set of panels in one location and then later deciding you'd like more, it's cheaper to install in one go, essentially I'm only really paying for the extra panels as they will be on a garage roof and don't require an extra full set of scaffolding etc and it should be easy (for them) to add these on the same visit.
Fingers crossed for me re the G99 it went in yesterday !
please make sure you get g00 permission before the install goes ahead, know of friends who hd similar uk installs last may but yet to get even a msc cert yet alone any permissions.
opps G99 permission
@@alanclark2584 thanks. Yes the supplier won't go ahead without G99 it's all on hold until then
Hope all goes well with the installation (and of course, the response from your DNO)! :-)
@@alanclark2584 Amazingly the G99 has been approved, its only been a week I was expecting end this month earliest. Install is now cheduled for second week of Feb. Expect the current sunny weather to end at that point.
If you have east west configuration how to you prevent power flowing into the shaded panels when diodes are very wasteful?
It is common practice for each array on a different orientation (eg East or West) to be on a separate string into the inverter - so power generation between the two is kept apart 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar by separate string, how are you separating them, separate MPPTs (double cost) or some other way?
@yellowgreen5229 Yeah, separate MPPTs - all part of the inverter cost.
If your energy consumption is around 5kW in general and you therefore decide to install a 5kWp array, the maximum you can generate is 5kW(approx) and that will only happen in optimal conditions, ie it will cover your demand only occasionally. So oversizing your array means you can generate 5 kW for much more of the time and cover more of your demand. But other factors like load shifting and tariffs mean you need to do the maths to find the optimal solution, rather than just piling on more modules.
A good way to look at it.
Hi Gary! Nice and very useful video! You earned a subscriber here! Could you please be so kind as to tell me if a system with a 5 kW inverter and 6 kW panels would be OK? Or maybe a 6 kW inverter + 8 kW panels... Honestly, I don't know. All I can tell you for sure is that the energy requirement for my house is approximately plus/minus 6000 kW per year. Thank you very much in advance for your answer.
Hi Andy, thanks for the kind words! Now, I can't offer individual advice unfortunately, but if it were me, I would certainly try to get as many panels on my roof as I could, then get an inverter maybe 20-30% smaller.
yes but these days, LFP batteries have become affordable and some grid operators would require homeowners batteries. in other words, inverter rating is independent from the solar pv size. inverter capability depends on the simultaneous or peak power draw of the house.
I would like to argue that everything relating to solar and battery has become more affordable, so relatively speaking, my arguments in the video should prevail. And working at higher levels of efficiency in the inverter makes a notable difference to the resulting solar generation.
All that said, the video I'm working on now is about a supposed LFP battery with a 20kW inverter in it, but a 97.5% efficiency!!... So, on balance, I think you could be making a very good point :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks, I will be waiting for that. :)
Hi Gary. Firstly im a huge fan. On the basis of your 'which battery size' video last year we invested in a myenergy libbi (not cheap) and have so far really enjoyed its benefits so thank you for that. Wouldn’t have done it without your help! :) my query (and i really hope you might be able to help as i can't find anything relating to our issue online anywhere) is back in 2013 we got a 4kwh east west solar array with a goodwe 3.6kwh inverter. For as long as i can remember we get some days where the generation starts to climb and all of a sudden it flattens. I know that inverters "clip" but the flattening happens between 0.2 and 0.5kwh. Am i right in thinking the clipping should happen only when it exceeds the inverter capacity? The levels are so frustrating and so low its pretty much useless for our needs (today for example was a good sunny day but it went from 1.7kwh to clipping at 1200 and locked in at around 0.6kwh for the rest of the day, not enough to help with house needs and try and charge the battery a little. Ive asked suppliers for their advice and goodwe (inverter manufacturer) and nobody seems to be able to explain it or are willing to help us resolve it. Have you heard of this issue? My thought is we need a new inverter but theyre not cheap and i dont know which would be the best inverter make to go with (its hard to know who to trust) or if a new inverter would solve the issue. I wish i knew of a way to troubleshoot it. Plus we're also on the UK feed-in-tarrif so would a change in inverter affect that? Oh and battery is AC coupled fyi. Sorry for the long question but this is my one shot in the dark to ask someone who i do trust for their advice. Im guessing you're a busy man so understand if you dont reply. Was cathartic to write it down either way :) thanks again for all the great videos. I will continue to look forward to you posting new ones... Daniel :)
Also...again...shot in the dark...changed my profile picture of two examples of this sudden clipping (at very low power) just on the off chance you see these messages :)
P.p.s I know you can't offer professional advice, so ignore my "asking for advice bit" mainly asking if you'd seen this issue before and know of it being linked to a faulty inverter? And as a fellow UK'er you knew if changing the inverter for the same capacity inverter affected the FIT? Thanks and sorry for the (now very long) query...😂
Hi Daniel, thanks for your kind words about the channel. Now, I don't have any experience of Goodwe inverters, but a quick search showed that a few people are experience clipping issues: www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=goodwe+inverter+clipping&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
I'd recommend you join this group and post a question. I'm sure someone there will be able to offer advice: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466
Question for anyone who knows a bit about this. I'm in the very early stages of looking around at different solar, battery arrays and am fantasising about going DIY as possible. My brother is an electrician, but would have none of the specialist knowledge to do this and I have no idea how long it would take a professional to learn. My Question. I have seen a brand-new but smashed EV for sale at about 8,000. It still drives, and battery pack is intact. There's 40KWh of storage and massive power output for 8K!! What am I missing here? Solar array builder's dream?
Not really my area of expertise, but these videos might help: ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=using+tesla+car+battery+to+power+home
Is it the same for hybrid inverter
Yes
consider revising and including AC-coupled solar (at the panel).
Unfortunately, I can't revise videos when published - but I will hopefully be covering microinverter oversizing in an interview I'm having with Enphase soon...