I don't often get horns for rotor rebuilds, but I have done it. I prefer to use the copper build method for very loose rotor. Have a copper build applied according to the degree necessary, then true the rotor in the lathe to knock off the high spots on the rotor ends and around the port ways. A tone hole file and 1200 grit can be a valid method to do this. Then, Start lapping in the rotor casing. Send out for another round of this if needed. Repeat process. Lastly get the nickel plating done. This can be a fairly thin layer if the rotor is fit with the copper build method. Just specify like .0005" or .0008" whatever is needed. Nickel is an absolute bear to hone and lap, so the less you need the better and the easier it is to fit it. That's why the copper build is a real time saver. But this requires, in my experience, 3 trips to Anderson's. You might get it in two, but that's pretty sketchy. In my experience, it just does not pay to do plating except for cosmetic reasons on occasion for small parts. Plating will follow the path of least resistance. Funny how that works with electrical current. Thus you need agitation in the nickel plating solution to get an even build. Possibly, more anodes will help directional control on that as well. I'd stay away from buffing rotors. They need to be clean, but that can be done with degreasing. No need to be shiny in for a rotor. As you know plating will appear only as good as the surface prep. Appearance is Not an issue on a rotor. I would love to have a good nickel set up for plating, but to do it really right, you have to have the jobs to make it support that cost. For an occasional rotor job, I just prefer to use a very reputable plater. A cool video though. I enjoy the stuff you put out there. I'll be posting a video on stripping nickel on my channel soon. Very handy to be able to do this.
To etch it before plating, use a small ultrasonic cleaner with water in it. Put a beaker in the water in the ultrasonic with your etch acid in the beaker and add the valve. It only takes about 15 seconds to due a lot of etching in an ultrasonic. The sonic goes right through the water, beaker, and acid and works super fast, and the acid never gets on the ultrasonic cleaner. That is also a super fast way to strip silver with nitric from slides and such. Use a sharpie to mask any areas you don't want to plate and strip that off later with denatured. You can fill pits with nickle by masking everything but the pits and plating that way, but you may need to tease-scrape the pits with a tiny file or pin to make it stick good. I like to plate a LONG time then turn it down to size by chucking it in a drill and using wet 800 then wet 1000 grit paper. Flashing with copper makes the nickle stick better, BUT the copper is soft and the nickle will wear off faster in moving parts so personally I wouldn't do that (or so I have heard). Nickle plating in non-wear parts works great with flashing though.
Hook your anode to a ring of stainless strip going around the inside diameter of the jar. This way current will flow from every direction. Plating solution has something called "throwing power" and what you are experiencing is poor throwing power, in other words, the nickel ions are taking the path of least resistance, and only going the shortest distance. You can also use an aquarium pump to make bubbles (not on the part) to circulate the water, or better yet, a magnetic stir plate.
@@davemiller7633 That's going to depend on what solution he is using. He'd have to contact Caswell and ask them, but I'd imagine smaller kits like this are designed to be used (or at least function with) with no external heating. But yeah temperature is a big variable, as is current density, which he can't control with this kit, except by adding more valves to lower it, which could lead him back to throwing problems; so I guess it wouldn't hurt tp play with the temperature.
Also it just occurred to me, he could plate in a stainless steel cup, and hook his anode to the outside. That should give him a nice even current distribution.
@@teslasintern A stainless steel cup will deplete the plating bath of nickel very quickly because there is no nickel anode to supply the nickel ions to the solution to replace the ions that are being plated out of the solution onto the part, so not a good way to solve the problem. The real way to solve this it to rotate the part every minute or so, and use air to bubble through the solution.
I've done lots of plating and nickel is the toughest to get right (gold and rhodium are super easy). Others have said correctly to acid etch first, have multiple anodes and something to agitate the liquid. A magnetic agitator works well. Warm solution for nickel too. Another trick, for areas you don't want plated use a permanent marker to cover the area then clean off with acetone when finished.
Art, I have some free time if you'd like some help developing your process. Let me know. From what I've been reading though, you need an acid etch and distilled water rinse just before putting the parts into the electroplating solution. 50:50 muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) and distilled water for a few seconds will do it.
I haven't done any plating myself, but what I've generally heard is that the nickel plating will flake and generally not adhere correctly if applied directly onto the brass of the rotor - this is why you see a layer of copper plating under the nickel plating usually. I believe copper plating is relatively simple, so that shouldn't be too much of a hurdle. Robb Steward has a good article on his website on the process of plating piston valves, which should provide some useful ideas for plating rotors. He mentions masking off the ports of the valve when plating more than a small amount to avoid constrictions in the bore, and I've heard similar things on rotor rebuilds, which would be useful to look at if the Wunderlich needs (relatively) a lot of material.
Nickle adheres just fine to brass. It does not need copper underneath it. It flaked off in this video because he removed the valve from the plating bath to look at it, and then put it back in. So once you start plating nickel, leave it in the bath, or at least keep electrical contact with the bath if you pull it out a little. Nickel is very difficult to plate on nickel, and that is in effect what you are doing when you remove the object from the bath and put it back. (Nickel is very sensitive to this. Other metals like copper are not.) The only way to plate nickel on nickel is to activate the nickel first with an acid dip and/or cathodic activation. That's a whole 'nother subject.
There might be other issues (from the comments it seems like there are), but for cleaning, soap can leave a tiny film over the surface, how much also depends on the type of soap, how you washed it, etc. A very good cleaner for this is Ajax bathroom cleaner. I'm sure there are others that are similar. The water test is excellent, but should be a little different. You might be able to tell the way you did it too, but it's harder. Dry it, then put just a little bit of water (even just some drops) on it and see if they sort of remain on it or flow off smoothly. The latter is good, the former isn't and means there is a film of something over the metal. As others mentioned check the Bench Electroplating group on Facebook. It was created exactly for this, by and mainly for musical instrument repairers.
You could try to use shellac resin to "paint" all the surfaces that shouldn't be plated. That would save plating material and can be washed with alcohol later very easy.
I wouldn't say I'm "experienced", but I can say the easiest thing to plate with is silver, then gold on top of silver which is almost as easy (and not even that expensive, to my surprise -- I did a dozen mouthpieces with a $30 bottle and still had half the bottle left when it expired). Then comes copper, which flakes (silver doesn't) but otherwise isn't that difficult to work with. Everything else is much harder to work with. I never had good luck with thick nickel plating. Like you, I could get a couple layers down that looked good, and that was it. Maybe copper could provide the bulk, and just finish off with a bit of nickel at the bearing surface? Also if you can see the reaction making bubbles, you're using too much power. Those bubbles are why you get the pitting, as no liquid can make contact where bubbles form.
That valve is far too big for the Caswell kit. It is okay for electroplating very small parts like the touch piece of a clarinet key but anything larger and you get burnt plating like you saw. There's not much you can do without buying an actual nickel anode and rectifier (and at that point you might as well just buy new solution and not use anything from the Caswell kit. You can try having the part rotate but this will only help so much. Also you need to be chemically cleaning the parts somehow, dish soap is not enough. I use fairly concentrated sulfuric acid.
Jared. I agree with you. I purchased good quality parts from various suppliers to make my plating kit. Definitely worth the extra cost. I use a silver anode (£40). This uses less electrolyte, providing good quality plating. No burning / blackening. I’ve had very good results with buffing, cleaning thoroughly with alcohol and rinsing with deionised water, but agree a chemical clean is better. If dedicated swabs are used for alkaline you can electro-clean (using the instrument as the anode), deionised water rinse, acid wash, deionised water rinse. I also use a silver plating calculator for plating time / thickness www.goldn.co.uk/brush-plating-calculator/.
I think you are getting there but I never saw so much flaking as you got. You might need another better container and some movement in the solution. Spa plating has containers with multiple anodes say 5 of them on the edges and a central position in the container for the piece so all sides are plated more evenly I guess that might help. I do mostly brushplating with the valves rotating so they get an even coating so I'm not an expert on even plating i a small tank.
Be careful of what you use. Tape will probably come off when wet, and various paints can dissolve in the plating bath and contaminate it. Lacquer painted on works OK most of the time.
Hmmm....probably not....the rougher the surface to be played, the more nooks and crannies the electron flow has to pass to to reach the base metal. You actually want as flat and clean a surface as possible, but if that's not possible, then second or even third replating might be necessary
I don't often get horns for rotor rebuilds, but I have done it. I prefer to use the copper build method for very loose rotor. Have a copper build applied according to the degree necessary, then true the rotor in the lathe to knock off the high spots on the rotor ends and around the port ways. A tone hole file and 1200 grit can be a valid method to do this.
Then, Start lapping in the rotor casing. Send out for another round of this if needed. Repeat process.
Lastly get the nickel plating done. This can be a fairly thin layer if the rotor is fit with the copper build method. Just specify like .0005" or .0008" whatever is needed. Nickel is an absolute bear to hone and lap, so the less you need the better and the easier it is to fit it. That's why the copper build is a real time saver. But this requires, in my experience, 3 trips to Anderson's. You might get it in two, but that's pretty sketchy. In my experience, it just does not pay to do plating except for cosmetic reasons on occasion for small parts.
Plating will follow the path of least resistance. Funny how that works with electrical current. Thus you need agitation in the nickel plating solution to get an even build. Possibly, more anodes will help directional control on that as well.
I'd stay away from buffing rotors. They need to be clean, but that can be done with degreasing. No need to be shiny in for a rotor. As you know plating will appear only as good as the surface prep. Appearance is Not an issue on a rotor.
I would love to have a good nickel set up for plating, but to do it really right, you have to have the jobs to make it support that cost. For an occasional rotor job, I just prefer to use a very reputable plater.
A cool video though. I enjoy the stuff you put out there. I'll be posting a video on stripping nickel on my channel soon. Very handy to be able to do this.
teacher has all the resources that good work deserves all the good
To etch it before plating, use a small ultrasonic cleaner with water in it. Put a beaker in the water in the ultrasonic with your etch acid in the beaker and add the valve. It only takes about 15 seconds to due a lot of etching in an ultrasonic. The sonic goes right through the water, beaker, and acid and works super fast, and the acid never gets on the ultrasonic cleaner. That is also a super fast way to strip silver with nitric from slides and such. Use a sharpie to mask any areas you don't want to plate and strip that off later with denatured. You can fill pits with nickle by masking everything but the pits and plating that way, but you may need to tease-scrape the pits with a tiny file or pin to make it stick good.
I like to plate a LONG time then turn it down to size by chucking it in a drill and using wet 800 then wet 1000 grit paper. Flashing with copper makes the nickle stick better, BUT the copper is soft and the nickle will wear off faster in moving parts so personally I wouldn't do that (or so I have heard). Nickle plating in non-wear parts works great with flashing though.
You might try a thin copper plate before the nickel.
Hook your anode to a ring of stainless strip going around the inside diameter of the jar. This way current will flow from every direction. Plating solution has something called "throwing power" and what you are experiencing is poor throwing power, in other words, the nickel ions are taking the path of least resistance, and only going the shortest distance. You can also use an aquarium pump to make bubbles (not on the part) to circulate the water, or better yet, a magnetic stir plate.
Thank you for this....should Art keep the solution over a heat source? Does nickel plating solution need to be kept at an ideal temperature?
@@davemiller7633 That's going to depend on what solution he is using. He'd have to contact Caswell and ask them, but I'd imagine smaller kits like this are designed to be used (or at least function with) with no external heating. But yeah temperature is a big variable, as is current density, which he can't control with this kit, except by adding more valves to lower it, which could lead him back to throwing problems; so I guess it wouldn't hurt tp play with the temperature.
Also it just occurred to me, he could plate in a stainless steel cup, and hook his anode to the outside. That should give him a nice even current distribution.
@@teslasintern A stainless steel cup will deplete the plating bath of nickel very quickly because there is no nickel anode to supply the nickel ions to the solution to replace the ions that are being plated out of the solution onto the part, so not a good way to solve the problem. The real way to solve this it to rotate the part every minute or so, and use air to bubble through the solution.
I've done lots of plating and nickel is the toughest to get right (gold and rhodium are super easy). Others have said correctly to acid etch first, have multiple anodes and something to agitate the liquid. A magnetic agitator works well. Warm solution for nickel too.
Another trick, for areas you don't want plated use a permanent marker to cover the area then clean off with acetone when finished.
Art, I have some free time if you'd like some help developing your process. Let me know.
From what I've been reading though, you need an acid etch and distilled water rinse just before putting the parts into the electroplating solution. 50:50 muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) and distilled water for a few seconds will do it.
This is great to see,thanks.
Love your videos!!
I haven't done any plating myself, but what I've generally heard is that the nickel plating will flake and generally not adhere correctly if applied directly onto the brass of the rotor - this is why you see a layer of copper plating under the nickel plating usually. I believe copper plating is relatively simple, so that shouldn't be too much of a hurdle. Robb Steward has a good article on his website on the process of plating piston valves, which should provide some useful ideas for plating rotors. He mentions masking off the ports of the valve when plating more than a small amount to avoid constrictions in the bore, and I've heard similar things on rotor rebuilds, which would be useful to look at if the Wunderlich needs (relatively) a lot of material.
I think that's a great idea about masking the ports. What material could be used? Would traditional tape hold up in solution?
Update.....what about plumbers putty for the ports....made by a company called Oatey I believe
Nickle adheres just fine to brass. It does not need copper underneath it. It flaked off in this video because he removed the valve from the plating bath to look at it, and then put it back in. So once you start plating nickel, leave it in the bath, or at least keep electrical contact with the bath if you pull it out a little. Nickel is very difficult to plate on nickel, and that is in effect what you are doing when you remove the object from the bath and put it back. (Nickel is very sensitive to this. Other metals like copper are not.) The only way to plate nickel on nickel is to activate the nickel first with an acid dip and/or cathodic activation. That's a whole 'nother subject.
There might be other issues (from the comments it seems like there are), but for cleaning, soap can leave a tiny film over the surface, how much also depends on the type of soap, how you washed it, etc.
A very good cleaner for this is Ajax bathroom cleaner. I'm sure there are others that are similar.
The water test is excellent, but should be a little different. You might be able to tell the way you did it too, but it's harder.
Dry it, then put just a little bit of water (even just some drops) on it and see if they sort of remain on it or flow off smoothly. The latter is good, the former isn't and means there is a film of something over the metal.
As others mentioned check the Bench Electroplating group on Facebook. It was created exactly for this, by and mainly for musical instrument repairers.
You could try to use shellac resin to "paint" all the surfaces that shouldn't be plated. That would save plating material and can be washed with alcohol later very easy.
I use a sharpie - it seems to work just fine and comes off with denatured alcohol at the end.
To correct the radial clearance of the upper and lower bearings you have to "tug in" with a special tool, look in the catalogue of the Böhm company!
I wouldn't say I'm "experienced", but I can say the easiest thing to plate with is silver, then gold on top of silver which is almost as easy (and not even that expensive, to my surprise -- I did a dozen mouthpieces with a $30 bottle and still had half the bottle left when it expired). Then comes copper, which flakes (silver doesn't) but otherwise isn't that difficult to work with. Everything else is much harder to work with. I never had good luck with thick nickel plating. Like you, I could get a couple layers down that looked good, and that was it. Maybe copper could provide the bulk, and just finish off with a bit of nickel at the bearing surface?
Also if you can see the reaction making bubbles, you're using too much power. Those bubbles are why you get the pitting, as no liquid can make contact where bubbles form.
That valve is far too big for the Caswell kit. It is okay for electroplating very small parts like the touch piece of a clarinet key but anything larger and you get burnt plating like you saw. There's not much you can do without buying an actual nickel anode and rectifier (and at that point you might as well just buy new solution and not use anything from the Caswell kit. You can try having the part rotate but this will only help so much. Also you need to be chemically cleaning the parts somehow, dish soap is not enough. I use fairly concentrated sulfuric acid.
Jared. I agree with you. I purchased good quality parts from various suppliers to make my plating kit. Definitely worth the extra cost. I use a silver anode (£40). This uses less electrolyte, providing good quality plating. No burning / blackening. I’ve had very good results with buffing, cleaning thoroughly with alcohol and rinsing with deionised water, but agree a chemical clean is better. If dedicated swabs are used for alkaline you can electro-clean (using the instrument as the anode), deionised water rinse, acid wash, deionised water rinse. I also use a silver plating calculator for plating time / thickness www.goldn.co.uk/brush-plating-calculator/.
Jared - Sorry I swab plate this is the tank plating calculator. www.goldn.co.uk/silver-tank-hs-calculator/
I think you are getting there but I never saw so much flaking as you got. You might need another better container and some movement in the solution. Spa plating has containers with multiple anodes say 5 of them on the edges and a central position in the container for the piece so all sides are plated more evenly I guess that might help. I do mostly brushplating with the valves rotating so they get an even coating so I'm not an expert on even plating i a small tank.
I meant the spindle clearance!
Master, can that liquid be reused?
Yes, but some of the plating potential (amount of metal that can be deposited) gets depleted a bit
Does anyone have an idea how Art can mask the valve ports? I'm thinking plumbers putty
Electrical tape can be used for masking as well. Or even stcky tape. Or just liquid paper. Anything that does not conduct.
Be careful of what you use. Tape will probably come off when wet, and various paints can dissolve in the plating bath and contaminate it. Lacquer painted on works OK most of the time.
Maybe the plated needs more of a rough surface?
Hmmm....probably not....the rougher the surface to be played, the more nooks and crannies the electron flow has to pass to to reach the base metal. You actually want as flat and clean a surface as possible, but if that's not possible, then second or even third replating might be necessary
That was plated not played!
@@davemiller7633 oops it autocorrected. iOS autocorrect is really dumb