Can Nonbinary People Be Lesbians? A Queer Nonbinary Historian's Response
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2021
- Sharpen your pencils! It's back-to-school time and I've got some nonbinary/lesbian history for you... Here is my response to Cole and Ari's fantastic video on whether or not nonbinary people can be lesbians. • Video
What do you think? Tell me in the comments below!
Got questions? Want to know more? Let me know! I'm a professor and I love talking! Probably too much!
Interested in joining the Boldly Nonbinary community? Go here: elchenier.com/expressive-arts-...
and here: / boldlynonbinary
Want to read my scholarship on butch and femme lesbian culture? Here you go! lh.journals.yorku.ca/index.ph...
I loved listening to you share all that history and personal experience, thanks so much for sharing! So glad RUclips thought to plop this in my suggested videos home page :D
This was wonderful. Thanks for bringing history and context into this conversation. 💖👍
Wonderful video! Thank you so much for such an interesting talk. I really like your presentation; enthusiastic and respectful. Lovely!
I didn’t see the original video but this was very interesting and informative. Thank you for sharing :)
Wow ! I'm French and every word you said made a lot of sense to me! That was so interesting and intelligible!! I'm sure there is much more to tell but it gave me a lot to understand my own journey too. Thank you so much for taking your time to educate us in 10mn!
Thank you for taking the time to drop a comment!
What a great video. Thank you! I identify as nonbinary, didn’t choose a new name, and feel sexually attracted to AFAB humans who identify as queer, nonbinary, or lesbian. This has been a challenge regarding connecting with others. However, your positivity and excited energy give me hope for our species to grow into a more accepting, open-minded community that eventually worries less about sexuality and gender identity and more about socioeconomic and environmental issues.
@@markusmars You people are female and acting really weird. Identifying as male or anything other than female is weird and not female loving.
Sit down. Get a drink. Stop hating women.
@@markusmars it's not open minded to be homophobic and anti lesbian or anti gay
@@markusmars sex is observed and recorded at birth not "assigned"..
This was very insightful!
I've been out since 1982, and I always used the word lesbian. I'm very feminine presenting, and I've usually been in Old School butch femme relationships.
You mentioned something that caught my attention. When I first became attracted to women, I did believe that I must have had a masculine soul. I had no idea what trans or lesbian was at that time but the only way I could explain my attraction to some was in that way of having a masculine soul. I learned what a lesbian is and identified as one. Obviously I’m not trans and don’t believe any longer that I must have this masculine soul. Anyways, interesting video
Gay is a thing. You can be just be gay and doesnt mean trans or hetero normative. Some people are just same sex attracted..
Homosexuals!!
Wow, you are probably one of the most interesting teachers I've ever heard!
Glad this was helpful to you!
I m non binary lesbian.I m exist
Aww hell nah
thank you for educating people!
I really enjoyed this video and learnt a lot. It's very postive
Thank you!
Love this!! Nonbinary lesbian here 🥰🥰🥰
Don't you mean non binary non man?
@@DemonDog444 i said what i said
@@fomoerotic fair enough 😀
Lesbian means female sexually attracted to females
Amazing video! So eloquent and bringing up such great arguments with beautiful enthusiasm! I may be in love 😍
This is very interesting. The only part that I think is worthy of more analysis is when you talk about lesbianism as a reclamation feminist movement and link it with cisgender/female experiences primarily. To what extent is that pushing away nonbinary perspectives at the time? Consider a much earlier representation in Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg. The way Feinberg depicts the central character is very much between genders and also engaging with lesbian culture- as classic case of what today we might call nonbinary lesbian. This is proof I think of an early existence of a blended experience. If nonbinary and lesbian cultures have such early roots, it is reasonable to assume with or without proof that the lesbian reclamation feminist movement that came much later had a similar blending that may be repressed in terms of a lack of documentation or a lack of storytelling around it.
Hi April, thanks for your thoughtful comments here. I agree with you -- without the words to describe our experience, we remain invisible, sometimes even to ourselves. That makes it challenging for us to look back in the past and see evidence of nonbinary people. Up until this point, historians of sexuality have tended to describe gender-non-normative people as either trans or lesbian or gay, but I am quite sure that now, we will think more expansively and broadly about people who no longer able to speak for themselves, as Feinberg was. Still, it is always an interpretation, unless of course there is clear evidence, as is the case with, for example, Canadian playwright John Herbert, who described himself as *both* male and female.
Leslie Feinberg did identify themselves as a nonbinary lesbian.
Point two: Has anyone looked at the microeconomics of butch/femmes in the '50s, tribades, even the economic advantages of "passing as a man" (rare as it was) when women were/are denied equal pay for equal work, and used to be denied access to all "good paying jobs", which were solely held by men?
Yes, historians have argued that, in the context of patriarchy and economic and social inequality, we can never know if people born female who lived as men were trans, gay, or just trying to live a life outside of the confines of femininity, of some combination of all of the above.
I doubt that any studies of IRL microeconomics could be done at this point, maybe a 10-20 person doctoral thesis of post WW2 butches before that generation dies off? But where? US and Canada economies significantly differed, and European economies plus the religious conflicts and religion inspired microeconomics were incredibly diverse.
And ... Scroll down to perhaps smile knowingly at my Point One? ;)
It's illegal to discriminate pay in the West. There are no women doing the same job as men for less money any more.... in probably any Western country. That battle was fought and won long ago now. Ive no idea why people pretend its a thing.
more info,more angles,history and history making. all good. thank-you.
this was such an informative video. i was wondering what you would have to say about using the term sapphic to describe orientation? in terms of history, etymology and if it might work as a descriptor for a afab nonbinary person. thanks!
Certainly people have used sapphic in the past, and I don't see why you can't use it now. If that's what fits for you, great! Some people like to police others around the words we can use, and I am not down with that. However, it is important that each of us take responsibility for knowing what's appropriate. For example, Two Spirit is a term created by and FOR Indigenous people. It is not appropriate for non-Indigenous people to use it.
When I think of ""non-binary", I think of "not digital, analog, or in the case of identities, flesh and blood rather than a digital avatar character in an online game.
Literally being nonbinary is a spiritual experience for me. It’s great.
I resonate with this feeling as well
Exactly its all in your mind. Its not the reality of the situation.
@@iberlo85 Wait till this person figures out everything is 'all in your mind' 🤣
I identify as gay, despite technically being a lesbian. and while I use the word lesbian occasionally, it's not how I identify. and I told someone this, she was around 60, and she said I should use the term lesbian because women had worked really hard to create this word and it should be respected. I said that while that's true my identity is my identity. She then referred to me as a lesbian the next day and I corrected her. I was really annoyed by that for a while, but this video helped me understand the time period in which she grew up and her viewpoint. So while I still don't think she should choose my identity for me, thank you for helping me understand her better.
Nor should you choose your identity. It's not a plate of food to chose from. Youre either XX or XY.
Gay is a word for men just say lesbian
@@iberlo85
That's incorrect. Deviations in number and composition of gonosome combinations are a natural (and healthy) occurance. Also, the commenter is talking about sexual orientation, not sex or gender.
If you have time could you please drop some peer review articles on the original way lesbian use to be described. I searched and searched and couldn’t find any.
I really appreciate the history of the language here. Thanks.
I would have appreciate it if you would have mention your source, where you red about the history :)
Great comment! I have been a historian of sexuality for 30+ years so there's no one source here. Thanks for asking.
@@elisechenier no one source? I'm sorry, english is not my native language, so maybe I just wrote something wrong. What I mean, is a book or a study, which would confirm your claims which you make in the video. When you are studying the subject for 30+ years, I'm sure you have a great list of books on that topic. Tank you in adnace :)
I think pansexual or queer are good terms for nonbinary people or people attracted to nonbinary people to use. Hopefully everyone can find a term that makes them happy and comfortable.
Really interesting . Grew up in the era that should have regarded lesbian as positive but I didnt. Felt bullied by that group. Eventually realised why. I am not a convincing cis female. Had a lot of male gay friends in my theatre days and preferred that tag gay . Queer I like Non binary, gender fluid . All usable. Have only used the word lesbian to deflect unwanted atttention from men. It's useful but these days if I ever am asked about my sexuality i won't use nouns ,. I prefer to say I like women.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I know many women who were same-sex attracted and felt excluded from or rejected by the lesbian community, and/or just didn't fit in, and so were either ambivalent about or outright negative toward the term lesbian. I am sorry that happened to you, and also glad you found a way to give expression to who you are.
I know we can because thats what i am but i don't remember what the flag isin't caller but i know what it looks like
Nope. Switch is either on or off.. one or the other. When it's in the middle.. still on or off.
**cue the TERFs storming the comment section**
Wtf.. I was literally pondering this a second before I opened RUclips
I like 'masculine soul' I think I've lived that everyday of my 53 year life. It's what lead to my double mastectomy.
I'm older than you and have been lesbian for 50 years ....I don't understand why young people today use the term "non-binary/trans" and then go on to use "feminine" or "masculine" as description terms of their look/and mannerisms .... I don't see why they don't continue to use butch-lesbian and fem-lesbian like we did..... when /why did that fall off into the new term "gender-fluid " ................... I know hundreds of lesbians who would befriend a male ...but never have sex with one ................... so society is not gender neutral IMO
because fem/masc isnt a gender identity, non binary is an umbrella term for multiple gender identities, fem and masc are just descriptive words, exactly like how you used them when describing lesbians. terminology is evolving to be more inclusive and i think thats beautiful! trust me, its not just young people by the way there are plenty of older people who identify this way and have for years but they never had the words for it💜
Because they want everyone around them to have anxiety worrying about everyone else's identity labels. The world has gone hyper narcissistic. They need to Stop trying to explain every single nuance and simply get on with life. People get really worn out with high maintenance people.
I also think the new generation strong urge to want change and reinvent terms to appear to be different is spiraling out of control. To me it looks like what once were just called androgyny and bisexuality has now become blown out into something else.. The thing is, for me, if you are not sexual or emotionally interested in the person your conversing with then I don't need to know what your sexual preferences are....The old trans and gays I know were never about standing outthey were more about blending in like everyone else
Young adults/teens trying to validate themselves and try take control in a sense and fight for a moment that gives them purpose.
As 22 year old lesbian the only sane people I mean are lgbt people who have nothing to do with the +
These kids are just hijacking a movement to feel special and included because they lack there own community.
In many cases, one is gender identity (nonbinary/trans) and the other is the way they present/appear to the world. Sometimes, it's which side of the gender spectrum they feel closer to.
It depends on the person.
For example, I've never felt like a man or a woman, so non-binary is the word that fits me the best. I identify more with the feminine side, but enjoy appearing and moving through the world as a butch (I'm only attracted to women and feminine-presenting people; if me using that term offends you, I apologize).
I don't know if this helps at all. If there's anything you want to ask me, I'm an open book, and will treat you with complete respect.
Love this! I hope to see you and @heycolanda do a vid together. 💛🤍💜🖤
This was so interesting, thank you. The ideas that gay people came up with that they had the opposite sexed soul inside them is pretty chilling, because the modern idea of a gender identity is also like a sexed soul - or gendered soul, as you know the two terms were conversationally used interchangeably until very recently in history...
I say chilling, because the implications of this are that transgenderism is frequently criticised for being the new form of gay conversion therapy - in some countries where it's illegal to be gay, you can get a free sex-change quicker than a boob job...
Also, you must have seen the recent progression of events with Stonewall, especially that concerning female lesbian women and the assertions that male bodied trans women could now be lesbians and that if a female bodied lesbian woman refused to have these people in her dating pool, she would be transphobic...
And then there was the formation of the LGB alliance out of concern for LGB people since certainly the L and and the female B portions of this group of people felt that their interests were not being served by Stonewall any more, because of their serving the wants of the male-bodied T people above and beyond all others...
I have heard further testimony to this from a great number of female lesbians now and also a new group of people known as detransitioners, many of whom are lesbian women and who are ex-transmen, who tell very similar tales of being told by trans women to shut up because of their supposed "male privilege" and it all sounded a bit like straight men bullying the women who refused to consider having sex with them, namely lesbian women, which is totally outrageous and a sure sign that there is a deeply unhealthy set of individuals who would fall under the identity of trans-women who are essentially male bodied, heterosexuals - who Blanchard would consider Autogynephiles.
So that means you have gays and lesbians presenting as the opposite sex and having hormones and surgeries to further this process who are then announcing they are straight (trans'd the gay away) and a group of women-hating, woman-parodying straight men with paraphilic fetishes who are announcing they are lesbians and then trying to order actual lesbians to sleep with them!!
Chilling indeed, dont you think?
Transgenderism is modern day conversion therapy for LGBs (so-called gender non-conforming) wrapped in a progressive package. It used to be 'pray away the gay' and now it's 'trans away the gay' and it is a medical scandal.
You put my thoughts into words.
Incredibly well articulated
Some of the ideas you are expressing here are often called Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism, or TERF. I recommend the creator Jessie J for some thoughtful and kind videos on why these ideas are flawed and harmful- the one about JK Rowling comes to mind.
I think that your concerns about how homophobia can force people into situations that harm them are valid, but fears of men "pretending to be women" are unfounded and harmful. We should also keep in mind that describing oneself as having a different gendered soul back then might not actually mean that all gay folks would have transitioned today- language and models of gender and sexuality were simply very limited. Gay folks and trans folks are not at all the same, and we are blessed to have the language and knowledge to understand and live as our authentic selves in this time.
Being able to transition absolutely saves lives, and people in general would not choose to deal with transphobia unless transitioning was very important to their happiness. In order to preserve our rights, it is important people understand that trans people are not predators, confused, or lying. Despite the actions of a few morally wrong trans people, who do not represent the rest of us. Thank you for reading, and I hope you might consider learning more about trans issues and history.
I don't think it's just that generation being empowered by the word. I respect them greatly for what they fought for and went through. I found myself to have somewhat mirror them in my own experience as a same sex attracted women.
I had alot of self hatred and disgust towards the word lesbian and not only that but internalized misogyny I had been carrying with me and it took me years to accept who I am and then even more time to accept the word lesbian to define me. When I accepted lesbian as a label for myself it was in itself a liberation. I accepted who I was fully and rejected the negative connotations and idea surrounding the word.
I find myself being very defensive over the word because it directly tied to my identity/experience as a women.
I rejected my feminity because of the projection society gave me just like I rejected the word lesbian. I always felt boyish and never fit in with girls which made me push feminity away further but I am proud to be a women despite most of my life hating who I was.
I believed the only way to be a "decent" lesbian was to be the lesbian that society said was pretty and acceptable.
So much of my life and identity has been shrouded in misogyny and a unpleasant projection of feminity which is barely tolerated.
I'm finally proud to be a women and a lesbian.
I can't help but feel so many other girls my age fail to self reflect and dig deeper into themselves and use other labels to identify out of something instead of accepting it/themselves in the process.
Point number one: "Tribade" meant "to rub". Thigh dancing ... Trot trot to Boston on the dance floors.
The main event for het women with fewer calories burned, often fully clothed, but hopefully a little foreplay before the main event for the '70-'80s lesbians who brought me out when I was in my teens in the mid '80s.
Ok so women and being female is what to you?
I always growing up understood that there were Gay Men and Gay Women.. meaning to me that they were attracted to the same sex ONLY... then non binary was men attracted to both sexes and women attracted to both sexes. We called it 'swinging both ways" How wrong I was its seems in todays world - its all very confusing now. I saw Lesbian as a term that homosexual MEN - Gay men forced onto women to exclude them from the term Gay as it was more pleasant a word than homosexual and they wanted the 'happy positive GAY word terminology for themselves". Also a word for them that excluded women because they really did not like women or being associated under the same 'banner' of Gay with women who liked women. Meaning they wished to own Gay almost a misogyny ownership of the word Gay and women must have Lesbian. I prefer my ignorance version because its simple to me .. men who like only men, women who like only women and gay swingers who go both ways.... all Gay and happy with whom they find attraction to and they only seeking relations with those that feel the same and not forcing themselves on those that do not.... forced understanding or acceptance is impossible and leads to no understanding, adversarial views and aggression.
Hi Shanti. I was an active lesbian feminist in the 1970s and a reporter for the gay and lesbian press from the 1970s-2018. The addition of "lesbian" was actually insisted on by lesbians in the 70s and 80s. This was due less to gay men excluding them (though there was misogyny) than it was to lesbian pride. This played out in the U.S. in the gay press, pride events and the marches on Washington. The first national march took place in October 1979 and at the insistence of lesbian committee members was titled the March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights. It was lesbians who insisted that their distinct identity be recognized through these institutions and events. There was some resentment of this lesbian assertiveness. There was a grudging resistance on the part of gay publishers, for example, who had to rebrand and redesign mastheads, first adding lesbian, then bisexual, then transgender to be inclusive. So here we are 50 years later with our alphabet soup of queer identities. You could blame it on those *#@* lesbians! ;-)
I’d say yes if they’ve got female anatomy and are attracted only to those with female anatomy or identity as a female.
But doesn't that put non binary people into a binary. it's saying that nb people with a vagina should be viewed as women, while nb people without vaginas shouldn't. If come non binary people can be accepted into the term lesbian than all should.
@@zeldahandel6211 Yeah but you'd still have an authentic lesbian 'experience.' In which society would perceive you as a woman who dates woman and you would be engaging in sex with two person having vaginas.
@@PlayfulFruitLPer but that reasoning excludes trans women from being lesbians if they don't have vaginas or are not perceived as female.
@@zeldahandel6211 Naa, they can still be lesbians. I never said they weren't - you're making that leap. All I'm arguing is what constitutes a lesbian lived experience.
What about trans women who don’t have female genitalia?
Lesbian means female + female.
This didn't help at all. Never addresses the question in the title. An utter waste of 10:46 /thumbs down.
Don't conflate sex w/ gender--they are different. Sex is biological, gender is presentation and probably influenced by biology but also socially constructed.
We live in a very confusing time as queers.
Don't need medical experts. Shit is really simple. We know what heterosexual is.. we know what homosexual is.
I don't Identify with @#$%&
Once we get to the point of being able to express ourselves as we wish, and have relationships with whomever we hit it off with, why all the labels? This makes no sense to me, and turns into narcissism and mental masturbation.
It’s a means to identify oneself and associate with a group.
We can go through the dictionary definitions:
Lesbian: "gay woman"
Gay: "homosexual"
Homo: "same"
Sexual: "relating to sex"
Woman: "adult human female"
So in conclusion, a lesbian is: "an adult human female who is attracted to the same sex (females)"
Except that’s mostly useless because people aren’t attracted to genetic sex, they are attracted to appearance and behavior.
@@montithered4741 It's irrelevant to who is lesbian.
@@Cowz19999
Then why did you bring it up?
@@montithered4741 false.
This is really homophobic..
I don't like this.
Me either. Say the word lesbian and woman, with your chest.
@@j.c.9784 it's a saying, it means just say the whole thing out loud without giving af. I'm stealing say it with your breasts tho lolll
@@PRINCESS-zz3wq Breasts, woman, female
Non binary is a non thing.
You can feel whatever you like.
You are male or female.
Same sex attracted female
Aka a female homosexual
Lesbian
Omg...stop. "Lesbian" has a meaning related to women, females, shes. All this we have to change how people think and speak so my ego can take over the room has just made other not want to accept you.
Stop trying to change the language overnight. Seriously.
The language isn’t changing.
Sapphic, trixic, toric, lesbian, gay, homosexual all exist. Their definitions aren’t being changed.
If the definitions aren't being changed then why is john hopkins university under fire for changing the definition of lesbian to non men who love non men? Just wondering
Interesting video. I was transfixed by your energy and delivery and found myself having to watch the whole video 😛
I honestly cannot figure out why it's become so awful and horrendous to acknowledge one's birth sex - one's literal, original physical anatomy.
A non-binary person has a body. And that body in well over 99% of human beings is male or female. Biologists use the terms "male" and "female" to denote the small gamete and large gamete producers of all anasogamous systems. It's nothing to get riled up about. It's just life doing what it does.
"Same sex attraction" is just that - being attracted to the same _sex_ . So if your body is female and you are attracted to other natal females, you can still think of yourself as lesbian even if you think of yourself as non-binary.
Ultimately, non-binary is a conceptual distinction, anyway. It's there I guess to help people feel more comfortable with the way they relate to society's gender norms on a psychological level. Some people don't mind all that so much and they're just gender non-conforming, or maybe they don't think about any of it at all. I don't believe there's any _actual_ distinction beyond the concept.
For example, if you think about what it means to be "transgender", originally it relates to sexual anatomy. Because gender dysphoria is initially triggered by someone feeling they're "in the wrong body" as it pertains to their sexual anatomy. As if nature gave them the "wrong parts", so to speak. Especially these days with so-called "trans kids", there is a virtual obsession with getting kids access to puberty blockers, HRT, and SRS in order to get their BODIES to look like that of the opposite sex. And those things are considered absolutely essential in order to avoid suicidality in kids and teens. So the emphasis is on aligning the sexual anatomy with the internal sense of gender. So apparently gender and sex ARE the same thing or it wouldn't be necessary to align them in this way. There would be no incongruance between the two that one needed to "fix" with all of this modern medical technology. People could just be whatever gender and whatever sex without needing to change anything.
But then we come to the "non-binary" distinction. There is no physical anatomy that relates to non-binary. There is no non-binary "sex" that aligns with the non-binary gender (in the human species anyway - and people with DSDs are not "in between" sexes, that's a complete misunderstanding due to the misnomer "intersex"). Nothing to "transition" to.
So a person with a female body who is same sex attracted but identifies as non-binary can still be a lesbian. I mean, I respect pronouns myself but when I see people I don't know, I instinctively read their sex because I'm an animal and animals are hardwired to reproduce. That's what life does afterall. So we are unconsciously embedded with the instinct to read the sex of other human animals. So, someone can tell me they're non-binary and I respect that but I will always _see_ a male or female standing there in front of me. I mean, there's no non-binary sex for that instinctual sex reader to read. So I can't make my unconscious brain see something that doesn't exist.
great response.
People aren’t attracted to genetic sex, they are attracted to appearance and behavior.
Genetic sex can’t be known without genetic testing, which didn’t exist for the vast majority of human history.
@@montithered4741 That may be true but neither of those things exist separately, they are all definitely related also to genetic sex. And at the population level, most of us really match our sex, genetically speaking (chromosomes etc). A straight woman may be really attracted to muscles and short hair and someone that's tall. But if she is attracted to men, adult human males, she is not going to find these attributes attractive on a woman.... because she is not attracted to women, she is not attracted to adult human females. This goes a little bit deeper than just appearance, I believe.
@@jassminyoung2605
People are not attracted to groups, they are attracted to individuals.
Genetic sex does not determine gender identity, gender expression, orientation, sexuality, preferences, or attraction.
Additionally, gender expression, orientation, sexuality, preferences, or attraction can change based on circumstances, context, time, age, location, clothing, etc.
However, these are still based only on appearance and behavior, not genetic sex or gender identity because neither genetic sex nor gender identity can be known based only on appearance and behavior.
I don't understand why everyone needs to know your sexual preferences and also I didn't choose cis women and I think it's a demeaning term.
If everyone wants to be called a specific thing then wear name tags. Lesbian means all that, so does women. You don't get to force your beliefs and labels onto everyone else.
Stop being victims.
PS tribbing and scissoring and the female form is beautiful to me. I'm technically bi but this doesn't define me.
I feel like you're moving everything backwards with all the labels. How about gender norms is the problem. Why encourage people to be unhappy with how they were born? Accept yourself and your journey without surgery and medication.
No.
Don’t you love how “educators” are always obsessed with sex and Vice versa.
There is no such thing as non binary in humans, change my mind.
Boring ...
Look at woman is talking........She is talking...
Good luck on making it to heaven I hope we all can go. Everyone sins and the Bible says love thy neighbor as thy self so do you