My issue with the current Canyon Aeroad (a part from the seatpost which is unacceptable from a top dollar bike) and the new Ultimate is that you can't change the stem length because Canyon won't sell you a different cockpit and it uses a proprietary system so you can't buy an aftermarket one. Imagine spending 10k on a bike and you can't change a basic thing like stem lenght
First episode and you already have us Americans worked up 😂. Many commenters have pointed out the logistical nightmare of hosting a road race which makes gravel and crit races more popular here. I think another factor that affects this is the level of fan enjoyment. After all, race organizers need sponsors and sponsors want to sell products. So the events need to involve the fans a lot in order to capture American audiences. Crit racing, similar to CX, does this well because fans get to see the racers multiple times and there’s usually music and other festivities at the larger events. And the fans can take in a full slate of races in an afternoon vice seeing the peloton speed through for a few minutes and then watching the rest of the race on their phone.
Indeed. American sports fans are accustomed to seeing all the action in a confined space, but Europeans clearly will wait hours in a spot of their choosing for the 5-10 minutes in which bike racers roll by.
I agree, but it's small thinking and short-sighted. American interest in cycling exploded each time we had real TDF contenders (LeMonde and Armstrong) that were worth millions (if not billions) to the domestic cycling industry and sponsors. With almost no domestic amateur or pro stage races, the chance of producing world tour capable riders is much lower, because they're training for the wrong kind of racing. Back in the day, there were 2 or 3 local stage races a month, and crits were considered training races (when not part of a stage race); now I get 2 or 3 a year (less since Covid). It appears to me USA Cycling isn't as interested in developing talent as it was when it was USCF, and it's costing our sport and cycling industry.
@@carlmons In the US, cycling is not seen as a pro sport by more than relatively small handful of people. Basketball, football, and baseball rule, with hockey coming in a distant fourth. "Pro" wrestling probably gets more air time and publicity than pro cycling.
I'm an American that moved to and raced in Spain. The community attitudes towards racing are polar opposites. Even if a race gets permitted in the States, there's almost always blowback from people living on the course that eventually make it next to impossible to keep the race going in subsequent years. Meanwhile in Spain, even smaller races will have a festive sign on, with a ribbon cutting ceremony, etc. And since racing is so diminished in the States, even the strong guys are done a disservice, as you end up with a few racers with potential bludgeoning a small 20 person peloton, not learning racecraft, positioning, etc. Then you roll over to Spain and you have up to 200 riders in a field, forcing you to be on point, read the race, position for echelons, etc. I don't know how it is in Oz, but my first season racing here was so hard. I had the physiology to survive, but not the acumen.
Im a strong CAT 4 and I'm thinking of making the same move next summer to get better and more frequent opportunities to race and get experience. Do you have any tips on racing in Spain? Like where and when most of the races are? My Spanish is good, so the language wouldn't be an issue for me at all.
@@loganj7238 there aren't categories here. There's age-based racing up through 23, then there's elite, which is effectively a P1/2 field. So you'll be need able to hang in those ranks, which may be possible, depending on what strong cat4 means. Also, to find a team you'll need to shop your race resume around and find a team looking to take you on. The easiest way is to go out on weekly worlds type rides and talk to people, etc, then have them put you in contact with their team management. Valencia is a hot spot, with tons of great riding. Madrid, the basque country, Asturias, etc are also hotbeds. I'm in Castilla y León, and it's a much smaller scene. Let me know if you have any more questions!
@@patgerke Thanks for the advice. I've got the power/fitness to hang with the upper cats here (~4w/kg 20 min 13-1400 5s), but I spend a lot of it making up position I lose through corners so when we get to the end I'm spent despite having 'sat in the group' the whole time. In theory I know exactly what I'm supposed to do, but getting the muscle memory and confidence to put it in practice has taken longer than I hoped. It's been tough since most races I can go to are $50 and 2+ hours away driving. I work remotely, so my thinking is that if I spend 3 months working/racing in Europe I can get more races / $ and time so that even if I get dropped I can do another race soon to try again without feeling like I wasted $125 in gas + entry each time. I'll look into the areas you mentioned. Thanks!
@@loganj7238 also, you don't need a team, but it makes life simpler. You will need a Spanish license, which, without residency, will require some paperwork, including a release from your American team, etc. Spain loves its red tape
I like the format of chatting on various cycling topics! In the USA cycling is considered a niche sport, not much support here. If you want to ride/race bikes it's on you, your parents, maybe friends or mentors. Organized sports are popular like baseball, football, and basketball, because you don't have to shut down roads. Shutting down roads is a "mortal sin" and not tolerated. We had a stage race in my state of Missouri a few years ago. The governor of my state canceled the race even though the money was approved to fund the event and the event generated millions of dollars of revenue for the state. Things are not likely to change in the USA.;-(
'Muricuns demand to see everything laid out before them without any effort at all involved regarding viewing their populist 'sports'. Given that, one would think that the few tracks in this country which have Friday night racing series in the summer (NO high school football to compete with, only maybe some MLB baseball games on TV) would be sold out every time. But no, they are NOT. I guess there just is not enough overt, condoned as part of the 'game', violence between oversized, enhanced players to get and hold the U.S. populace's attention and interest?? Free for all, 'argy bargy' REQUIRED to compete, Match Sprints, Keirins, and scratch races anyone???
I’m a junior rider that’s going to the national Championships (USA)but the reason you don’t see the world Tour have US riders is because there is little connection between European racing and American racing so we’ve diverged into our own scene. I’m built for European racing (a climber), but it’ll be rare for me to win anything big in the states so you don’t get noticed and the guys that do win big are 85 kg time trialists that only care about crits and sprint finishes
Really interesting comment Dante. It sounds very similar to the situation we have in Australia. The actually racing is limited and in no ways represents the races in Europe … I mean I have done “road racing tours” that feature ONLY crits. Given the actual level of talent in the US, it just seems the rate of guys going WT isn’t as high as it should be. Thanks again for your comment Dante, stay in touch.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Matteo Jorgenson talked about it in the Trainer road podcast a couple weeks ago but the racing dynamic between US road races and European ones are way to different. He said that it is really hard for all the U23 riders to break through to the world tour ranks and even if they are a strong cyclist, they struggle with positioning on European roads whereas US roads are typically 2-3 lanes wide each side and even smaller roads can fit at least 2-3 large cars side by side.
He said the one thing that US Juniors has over the European cyclist is that the riders learn to use data in their training from a very young age whereas he sees European Juniors go balls out for the first couple years and even if they had power meters they don't really use it.
Great content fellas! As an American myself I wish we had more proper road races that are over 100 miles. Unfortunately, Americans want instant gratification and I don’t think fans as well as other road cyclists can stand how “boring” a 100 mile road race can be. I also think American media plays a huge part on how “cool” Legion looks when they are dominating their little BS crit races against amateurs every weekend! It’s a joke in my opinion. Unfortunately, it’s not going to change anytime soon and you won’t be seeing an American win the TDF in the near future or any other Grand Tour or Monument. Cheers from San Diego, California.
Just catching up and watching this video and I couldn't agree more about Legion. They are content to stay in their little bullshit crit bubble where they are beating up on amateurs that have jobs and families and have to juggle everything to race. Those guys are more concerned about the social media crap and being seen as "influencers" more than anything else. Weren't even remotely competitive in the Maryland road race which exposes what frauds they are.
There are hardly any "road races" in the states. It's all Criteriums and Circuit Races. In my area, Cyclocross is the most popular discipline of racing. A lot of my peers wish we had more opportunities to ride in a proper road race. I think the lack of stage/road races is due to the difficulty in getting permits to close down roads for 100+ KM and more. It's much easier to host a crit.
I recently put on the Granville Road Race (in Granville Ohio). It was the races first year and every participant was insanely excited about it. We were able to get a strip of road downtown closed, but other than that the roads were open with police at every corner managing traffic. It was horrifically expensive and the only reason we didn't lose money was because of sponsors. Who knows if sponsors will be back next year...this is American cycling
I was about to comment the same thing. This year 2 stage races were cancelled, a few road races, and only 2 TTs made the cut. Road racing and stage racing is dying here in the US.
@@TheAcfallejoseph it is a combination of issues I think. Gravel is more inclusive, the culture is more open, easy going and fun. Racers tend to be a lot more serious, while gravel is about the adventure, regardless of how fit you are. There is food after gravel races, and community regardless of your FTP. Road racing lacks all of this; we don't even have a food truck after the race. That being said, the big price for gravel races / adventures, which has people signing up in the 100s, is likely cutting into the road race market share in a huge way. There is also the fact that the lower categories, like 3s, are often stuck racing 1/2 races, so it makes it tough to upgrade, or even not get dropped, so you aren't racing, you are just holding on, which isn't fun. Imagine going from a cat 4 to a cat 3, and lining up next to guys who are state and national champs.
Thanks guys. I like the format. Keep it up. Your conversation about bikes was interesting but no one brings up the price of bikes and the effect they have on the sport. Gobal cycling, IMHO, is in trouble when (competitive) bikes and accessories are so expensive that you exclude poor kids from the sport. Even from wealthy countries. How can this be sustainable to attract new great talents and for the sport to grow. Looking at the U15 and U17 bikes at the recent Australian nationals underscores this. The alternative for lower socio-economic kids is to get a pair of shoes and play football or go running. Something to discuss I think.
Cycling is expensive. I do it as a favorite past time and exercise and I've spent a small fortune just because I like some of the better stuff. I could never afford to provide a sibling with what it would take to make his dream come true of being a World Tour rider. I'm sure this is the case for most kids that actually have talent. Many don't get to meet those that could sponsor them. It's a damn near impossible dream. So Crit races and gravel races are as close to being a successful racer as they can see. By the way ENVE, releasing a new bike frame that costs $8000 is proving my point.
On Bobby and Jens recent pod they talked to Karsten Kroon, and he talked about how dialed in and hard these camps are, physically but also on the riders emotionally. The younger guys are stronger because of this, but how long they can do it for remains to be seen.
U.S. interest in international pro cycling took a nose dive after the doping scandals of the Armstrong era of the late 90s / early 2000s. Recovery has been slow, and we see occasional U.S. cyclists in the TdF and other European races (Sepp Kuss comes to mind). But they are exceedingly rare, as they were back in the days of Greg Lemond's ascendance. Without a significant fan base for pro cycling in the U.S., resources won't be available to train young cyclists in the sport. The doping scandals of 20 years ago killed fan interest over here. It's slowly building, but will take a lot of time - hopefully without further scandals. Cycling has become sort of a freak sport, much like pro wrestling. As a U.S. cycling fan going back to the 80s, I find it sad. I appreciate your youtube channel contributions, and your interest in what's going on with the U.S. scene. There's an avid fan base for pro cycling here, but we're few and mostly aging boomers from the last century. Like I say, sad.
My biggest issue is Woolongong is cost prohibitive for spectators. It's hard to get to and there's limited accommodation. I wanted to take the family but for the price it's hard to justify, when as much as I want to share my passion with my family, they'd get a lot of enjoyment out of a "traditional" holiday.
That’s a great comment Ben. There seems to be little or no thought given to inter state or regional visitors…my cynical impression is it’s purely set up to be a TV special. That’s again for your comment Chris
So glad you enjoyed it mate. It was a little rough and we will definitely play with the whole format, but delighted to hear you liked the overall concept.
Very fun pod. Throwing some opinion haymakers, too! Good stuff. Keep it casual, have a guest (recent Aussie TDF podium retiree), lengthen it out. Keep it up!
Hey Korey, cheers for the comment mate. Yeh I think some guest would be cool (assuming we get them off the boring talking points), but most of the main Aussie pros are from the Aus Cycling bubble, so I doubt they would waste their time with us. But who knows, I’m more then happy to send a few DM’s and see what happens.
Spot on about Legion. There are other smaller conti and domestic teams that were willing to take on European racing at least... Project Echelon and Wildlife Generation.
Quinn Simmons, Magnus Sheffield, Matteo Jorgensen, Kevin Vermaerke, Sepp Kuss, Brandon McNulty, Neilson Powless, etc… and soon Luke Lamperti go straight to Europe after junior development. They don’t really bother with the US domestic teams.
It's pretty much always been that way, with the possible exception of the original 7 Eleven team when it was first formed. LeMond was not hanging around riding crits for Avocet for very long way back then. 😉
@@redfixfive that's a dumb uneducated comment. Justin Williams went to Europe and weas on a devo team to become a pro. Culturally it sucked. Performance wise, he was dominate. Ask Phinney. Now you make comments about not being a pro when he's at the retirement age for most European riders shows how much more you are interested in the public opinions versus the ability.
We've had races cancelled here in California because they can't get enough registrations to break even when you add up all of the costs. Especially the cost of X number of police required, permits, porta-loos. So we get stuck with Crits every weekend in some industrial, office park. Hit the nail on the head when it comes to Legion. They're a crit team and enjoy being the big fish in the small pond. I doubt that the money would keep flowing into them if they went to Europe to race and can't deliver the results.
Great video and discussion Chris. Would love to see more of this, as well as viewer submitted questions for the show, guests as soon as you wish to make the show fully fledged!
Awesome vid Miller and Coyle!! Can we get something on the nationals masters coming up? Also the Sydney races that are coming up and local crits you guys want to do?
Hey Larry thanks for the comment. Been trying to do some stuff on the local scene lately, unfortunately they don’t seem to get much traction, but we will keep trying.
Great discussion. As an American amateur cyclist (CAT 3), I have a couple thoughts on the lack of American pros. (We do have some very solid WT Pros at the moment, but y'all are right. There should be more.) 1. Cycling was massive during the USPS days. Lance was God. When the doping admission happened, Americans as a whole just disliked the sport. I think it really took a hit due to that. 2. Continuing the above, that USPS riders were pretty much all Americans. Easy to cheer for. One team. Red, white, and blue. Dominant, etc. Now, we have American teams in the WT, but there isn’t that group of Americans on those teams. Our best riders are spread throughout UAE, Jumbo, Trek, BikeExchange, etc. I have been screaming for years for Trek to just go all in and sign every American possible. Good crop right now with Kuss, McNulty, Simmons, Craddock, Magnus. 3. Location matters. I am fortunate to live in Utah. Tons of road races, mountains, they used to have a UCI race here (Tour of Utah). However, a vast majority of the country is not like that. And as has been mentioned, the sport isn’t big enough and the money isn’t there to persuade cities, states, etc. to make races easier. ie Close off roads, get infrastructure in place to race. 4. LEGION has the money, but that is about it. I dont think there is another Domestic team that really has any cash.
Glad you enjoyed it mate. Look I know it was far from perfect, but I think as a test case we have something here …. Things to work on, but I’m so glad you enjoyed the idea. Chris.
My 2016 Ultimate Ultegra rim brake was just on 7kg out of the box. The Dura Ace equipped was about 6.8kg. Weight is added now for disc brakes. The frames are already paper light so the weight savings they are making are in the rest of the build, not so much the frame/fork/wheels or group set but in the details of the rest of the construction process.
@@ChrisMillerCycling like it a lot Chris. Personally this is a good mix of information and discussion I like to listen to. Some good insights. e.g. I’ve been wondering about these pro team training camps and now it’s really got my head spinning !! PS I’m going to be looking very closely at the new Ultimate. I don’t need the all out race geometry of the Aeroad and my bike fitter last time told me the Ultimate geometry was more suited to my aged body but it’s still a performance frame
Changing the camera frame rate to stop the flicker of the fliro lights would be good. Other than that, longer, shorter, whatever. Just make it and I'll watch. Always great thanks lads
Given that you are talking about the World Tour and the Aussie domestic scene, it would be great if you could get an interview with Cameron Meyer (now that he's just retired) to get his perspective on the differences, be they good, bad or otherwise.
HAHA!! Great idea, but not too sure the “bubble boys” even know we exist. There is a real inner circle in Australian cycling, they don’t tend to waste their time with people not in their circle. Thanks for the idea though Joan.
Hey Chris, its not a format thar i would normally watch but i decided to give it a go as i have been enjoying your content. I actually really enjoyed it .... definitely worth doing some more 👌 👏 🙌
Oh that’s great to hear Neil. Look I know it wasn’t perfect by any stretch, but we wanted to try something we feel wasn’t out there (especially in terms of content covered). We will keep working on it. Thanks Chris.
Good format, I think 30+ mins is the sweet spot. Maybe 45 when you have a guest host... The topics are spot-on with enough info that's not too much into the weeds. I really appreciate the pushback when there are disagreements, and you guys don't shy away from being critical of others... good on you. One area I haven't heard on the podcast is the discussion on TRI and those bikes... are they just TT bikes in a different sport? Maybe that's not your content-wheelhouse... But a lot of Pro Triathletes come out of Australia, do they not? Regardless, good stuff... I'm a subscriber!
I always enjoy your pod. Keep up the good work. I think you have it right on US cycling. No incentive to promote road racing, Crits seem to provide the easiest racing event to organized at a low cost. Gravel can be pushed as the anti-road (road is a Euro thing). I would like to see all cycling disciplines be promoted.
I always though that the main purpose of altitude training camps was to NATURALLY raise the rider's hematocrit levels to the highest they can be without EPO doping. ??? The added benefit over just sleeping in a hypoxic tent is that one can do long mountain climbs at the same time and develop those specific muscle groups and skills, a win-win.
Riders changing their body type to a stick with lungs is the result of the grand tour organizers making the tours hill climb competitions. They need to be more balanced with longer tt's and stages which favor a stronger rider.
Like you said, Legion is a crit team, not a road race team. I'm not a huge fan of the team, but saying their performance in a road race was a "test" for them and that by failing that test, they are irrelevant is absurd. Road racing in America is dead, but I don't think you guys appreciate how big the gravel scene is in the US. It's HUGE and keeps growing. That is where American cycling is focused. Lastly, Matteo Jourgensen, Neilson Powless, Sepp Kuss, Brandon McNulty, Quinn Simmons and his up and coming brother etc... Guys, this is the best crop of young American talent in years. What're you talking about?
Yeah I agree. That would be like me saying the gravel scene is dead in Austalia. it wouldn't make sense to say that because that's not the direction cycling is going in that area of the world. This conversation about American cycling feels pretty arrogant. Feels like they're turning a blind eye to some of the htters coming out of America. Also, no crap a crit team isn't hanging in a pro road race. These guys are machines in an all out hour effort.
They are proving themselves to be a crit team, but that's not what they've stated their goal is, which is where it rubs people (me included) the wrong way. They registered this year as a UCI Continental team which you would only do if you wanted access to international level road racing. And they've signed riders who are not culturally diverse, with a pure road racing background (look at the riders on their UCI squad). They also entered Marylands which is a 1.PRO road race! This is why it was considered a test for me, they swagger around amateur crits towelling everyone up, and now we got to see what they are like racing in the actual category of racing they pay to compete in
There is 330m people in the USA, and a GDP of $21 Trillion. Relative to that, the performance of US riders is not up to scratch. Compare it to the Aussies at the moment. Chris mentioned one of the reasons could be because the gravel scene is so big, that is exactly the point he was making...
@@nerocoaching Jesse you lose a lot of credibility in my eyes when you make the condescending statement "red white ans blue where are you" when there's been Americans front and center in all of the grand Tours. This is the best crop of cyclists America has seen in a looooong time. You're a very smart individual. Cmon dude. You even have guys like 19 year old Magnus Sheffield tearing it up for Ineos at the world tour level. People just love to hate Americans.
@@djseitz425 Wow you're way off, I don't hate Americans. By any objective measure, USA is currently underperforming in professional road cycling, taking into account the population and money the country has. Fed in part, as we speculate, by having a strong gravel and crit bubble which pulls a lot of attention. It's not hating, it's just interesting. It's not even a hot take, it's a common opinion. Look at Tour of California and Tour of Utah which aren't running anymore (I've done Tour of Utah, amazing race).
You guys made an astute observation about the US, cycling is dying a slow death. I live in the Seattle area, and all of the local teams are mostly just clubs that do only crits. Time Trials are completely gone, the closest ones are in California. I gave up and started doing triathlons so I could actually race my TT bike. That’s what I observe locally, but I think the death of cycling is pervasive in the US.
Hey Chris, cheers for the comment. Don’t get me wrong the state of bike racing in Australia is pretty bad as well, It’s really disappointing given the amount of talent on both sides. That said I do think that Australians tend to be more willing to just take a risk and go to Europe by themselves to try it, I wonder whether the American guys are willing to take that risk. Thanks again for your comment and hopefully you might subscribe as well.
Remember when Patrick Lefevere said Remco was fat, I think that’s where the impetus for his transformation comes from. Tadeij looks the same as last year. Excellent speculation and comment on cycling camps, though, a bit eye opening.
As a Brit living (and racing bikes) in the US I have a few observations. America can easily produce top athletes, it has the population, money, climate and terrain to do so. If cycling boomed right now in popularity, in the next few years there would be many top US cyclists. You have to follow the money though, and there’s little in road racing from an amateur standpoint (or professional for that matter), let’s be honest, it’s boring to watch as a spectator if not televised, they leave then show up again 4 hours later. Tulsa Tough is more of a festival then a race, half the people there have probably never ridden a bike, but they’re having fun in an awesome atmosphere and get to see racers wiz by every minute, that is something that can be more easily monetized and we can already see the growth in crits throughout other countries now too. Crit fitness is also much different to road race fitness, you can’t really compare them side by side. There’s many international riders here that come over thinking it’ll be easy to race crits at a high level only to find out that’s not the case. I think it would be a great series to have some of the Nero squad come over and race the US crits! America does have development teams that road race in Europe (Lux and Hot Tubes), however Lux is shutting down after this season because of funding.
Really interesting comment Jmac … in all honesty it sounds so familiar to what we are facing here. What I will say about the Aussies, we seem to be more willing to “give Europe a go” without any real support, guys just go over and race. Do you hear of many Americans doing that? Or do they all feel like they need a team or a federation to help them?
@@IlPinnacolo it's still bike riding mate, the physical demands aren't that different. The reason anyone serious goes to Europe for the kermesse scene instead of to the US to race crits is because the level isn't even close.
@@7metalfingers AGREED! I always remember some of our Yanks going over to Holland/Belgium/etc. (some individuals DID just 'pick up and go' to try their luck/test themselves/try to break into a pro contract) to race their kermesses, and coming back testifying to the INSANE speed they are raced at, and their general combativeness.
@@IlPinnacolo so only those that have raced them can have opinions now? I've got a unique perspective as my coach is a US 'crit pro' and I've seen what it actually takes to race over there. I also ride/race locally with the Aussies that do regular euro trips, I know why our institutes stopped sending them to America for races. But I guess if I don't quit my job and blow my savings to fund a US trip I've just got no idea 🤷
20 or more years ago, there was a big movement of Australian and NZ motorcycle road racers to Europe. There were relatively few Americans. Then when you looked at the American situation, people were making money at club-level racing. They seem to get off on being "pros", but their pros would seem likely to struggle at the Australian club level. There was lots of support from the trade (who had a huge local market), they were admired by their peers, they got to live in big comfortable houses. They didn't need to tear up their training programs and riding styles to adapt to the local conditions. You can probably join the dots to bicycles. I wonder though, before Phil Anderson won a stage at the TdF, whether Australia was so different? I was only riding a bicycle for training, but the race scene seemed to about crits and people running 13-18 rear cassettes. The owner of my local bike shop loned me his race bike and it was like a gym session to get up the local 4% climb. There were some long one-day races, but they looked sort of like "super crits", ie 300km of flat roads and big guys pumping huge watts against the wind. I wasn't really paying so much attention, it would be interesting to go back and ask some people of the time... Basically though, it's about suffering. What are you willing to do to succeed, which is driven by your local conditions. You can still hear the bitterness in Lance Armstrong talking about how little support cycling gets in the US (compared, implicitly, to baseball and basketball and NFL... all US invented sports). There are no rich kids lining up to become boxers, there are easier ways to get a comfortable lifestyle. An Australian who attempted the European stage race scene told me that the problem was racing against kids off some southern European town where they could work on the chicken farm, and who would do *anything* to escape that bubble. At the time that meant speed and opioids and later, epo. Now it means altitude camps, continuous glucose monitoring, daily blood checks... and doubtless other techniques of "marginal gains" like Tramadol and Stilnox and... He decided it was better to move back to Sydney and sell insurance.
All of those crits, PLUS of course your country/sponsors supporting the riders with resources (coaching, INDOOR BOARD TRACKS!, etc.) is why your compatriots have had so much success on the world TRACK cycling stage. Having had some great track standouts (mostly match sprinters/kilo riders) way back in the Anderson era, and even before then, did not hurt the cause either. 😉
Massive fan of the dual camera angle so you can see both of you. Personally find it frustrating with a lot of podcasts that are constantly moving back-and-forth between two/three guests.
The World Championships will be hit hard because of the "point' battle that the World Tour Teams are facing now. Several riders have already been prevented from doing the Worlds as their team want them to gain points in other races.
American here. Fellas, we have no history of the OE (overseas experience). That whole travel mindset is totally different, before the cycling thing. Where I live, you can barely find anyone who was even been to the coasts of the US. People would have no idea how to just go and would have no one to meet up with once there. Also, gravel is the thing of the moment
There is a small, quite nondescript hotel that I pass often at the Port d'Envalira in Andorra at 2400m. At certain times of the year the tiny carpark outside is like a who's who of world tour mens of womens cars and Van's. Life there is definitely no frills! Hotel Pic Maia. Love this video format BTW 👍🏼
We don't have much road racing here in the USA! Everything is crit racing or gravel. It's too difficult and too expensive for promoters to shut down roads. There's really no reason for a US team to even pay for a UCI license - we barely have any UCI road racing over here. L39ion bought their license so they could call themselves pros. They're really the only team here besides Human Powered Health that has any money. Project Echelon, another strong team in America, is what USA Cycling calls a "Domestic Elite Team" and they do go over to Europe for about a month each season with their top riders. They tend to outride L39ion in proper road races/stage races. Honestly, they would have been a better fit for the Maryland Cycling Classic and it's a bit of a shame they weren't selected/invited for the race. Crits are where the big races are and where the prize money is found, so the bigger teams tend to focus on those rather than blowing an entire year's budget on going to Europe for very little in return.
The UCI stamp is a revenue generator for the UCI. Manufacturers have to pay to have the bike listed and carry the stamp. The whole system is joke when you dive into it
Ha, getting Americans to watch a local road race is probably harder than getting them to watch first class cricket. Not gonna happen, that's where the issue is. Crits and maybe 1 day races take all the attention, therefore no sponsors for multi-day races at a state level, therefore, very few well honed national multi-day race riders. Conversely, I believe Lance did more damage to the image of pro US cyclists in America itself, than the rest of the world. Americans don't trust their own pro-cyclists anymore. So hard to get sponsors to back teams/riders all the way to UCI world tour level.
TRUE, as so many of the 'Muricun sports fans used that whole debacle to diss our sport even more than they did before that crap. Of course, they cannot see their own blatant hypocrisy, given the rampant PED use by their very own worshiped stick and ball sports 'heroes'.
Unfortunately Road racing in America has a stigma of guys being too good for the common person. I have experienced this. It is unfortunate but true, That is why gravel is blowing up all over the world as most people whom ride and race gravel races are attempting to be as inclusive as possible. Making others feel welcome in a world that is completely crazy seems to be the way to go right now. Excellent take and discussion. Looking forward to more.
You need a little scripting and polish but otherwise yeah, good vibe. I like the idea of a ‘burning issues’ or ‘what’s keeping Jesse and Chris awake at night’ thing.
You guys should do this chat on a bike ride with talking points written on your stem. In regards to training camps, have you thought about offering those as part of Nero training? As trusted stalwarts of Australian cycling on RUclips, I am sure there would be a lot of interest if you do run camps (perhaps in the lead up to big events like Peaks).
I like the new format. And, yes, we're all about the crits over here. I think they play on our short attention spans? They can be quite the events for spectators and vendors, so there's probably a dash of overt capitalism on top. I find it a thoroughly exciting form of racing, but I live in Boise, Idaho where we have a big one (The Twilight). I enjoy your content. Well done.
Cycling is not pushed as a sport in America. Cycling is expensive as we know. Most kids who go into sports have to go in the direction of the less expensive options in basketball, baseball, soccer, football. That's what we see more of in everyday life. That's where the money is at. Legion is not the only team but yes they have a big media footprint. But the are a crit team trying to break into a different discipline. I would not expect instant winning, that's dumb. You wouldn't expect a 100m sprinter to be good at a 5000m race, would you? I would think 16th is a good finish. Yes the cost associated with road races, I think, has killed the sport in America. It's more cost effective and fan friendly to do crits and circuit racing. The mighty dollar rules it all. Even with gravel racing they are on open roads with no traffic. They themselves have a low overhead I would think. The cheaper races to have are what's popular here. At least this is what I see it as.
Hello, could you provide some videos or sources on those altitude/scientific camps for procyclists? I am really interested in what exactly they do there. Thanks!
looking at how well the small population of NZ is represented in all form of cyclesport compared to the US i'm guessing it's down to one thing....lottery funding...The ecomomy tanks and private funding dries up but we keep on gambling....
I am still amazed that a whole contingent of Kiwis come over here to T-Town in the states every non-Olympic year summer! I guess racing on an always WINDY outdoor concrete 333.3 track is almost like some additional resistance training as compared to a perfect, indoor, 250 meter wooden bowl??
I think the main issue with US pros making it to the world tour isn't about money. They're not rolling in cash here. The problem is we advance riders who are crit racers through the ranks here and it simply doesn't translate to actual road racing. There's only so many spots for 165 lb sprinters in the WT. The us WT riders often get there without most American fans knowing who they even are until they make a WT team. We basically never heard of Magnus Sheffield until he was making waves in a WT race. US road racing is dead.
A couple things I haven’t seen mentioned re: road racing in the US: 1. No media coverage at all. Lance really hollowed out the sport here. The only road races on TV are on cable, even the TdF, and have 5 minutes of commercials every 3 minutes. So what little there is isn’t watchable. But even relatively big races like the Giro and Flanders get no coverage here. The major sports outlets like ESPN and the Athletic don’t even have staff for cycling. 2. Riding on the road can be dangerous anywhere, so that’s not unique to us. What is unique is an obsession with violence, and so riding on the road is *perceived* as being a death wish more than other places. Everyone here is thinking about how a stranger might kill them today, same reason why everyone has a gun here. It’s really the perception of risk that sets it apart… which is why the States’ two biggest contributions to cycling are off road: creating the mountain bike scene and now gravel. (btw, thanks for bringing that up as a topic. I’ve often wondered how Australia is producing so many more top pros than the States with 1/10th the population)
@@BrianMcDonald Certainly a piece of it too. I always take my insurance card with me in case I get knocked unconscious… if an ambulance takes you to the wrong hospital you can get hit with a six figure bill
Liked the format a lot. My question:- I have one real cycling goal - sub 9 min up My Cootha Back (Brisbane). I'm about 30 seconds away right now. Currently my training structure is ride up it as many times as I'm can. Best tips for me?
Would love to hear your thoughts on track cycling in Aus. Seems to be a big scene of pro’s and a lot of athletes do well at the comm/Olympics games and even get selected for world tour teams. Is there a big nexus between track cycling and getting into the world tour for Aussie athletes or is it a limited pathway?
MASSIVE can of worms that one, and one we will look at. What would be cool there is maybe bring in a guest who has been in that ‘bubble’ to give us the opinion of someone on the inside. To let you in behind the curtain a little, one of the reasons we started Nero as a race team was to find the guys who had fallen through the cranks of the track obsessed Australian cycling scene, so we are potentially a little bias. But cool idea Jeremy, let’s keep it on the list.
Big, strong, team/individual pursuiters (and maybe even kilo riders) do make great Grand Tour prologue/TT stage riders, as well as phenomenal lead-out train members for the designated sprinters. 😉
I’m hosting a women’s elite team at many home. Not expecting anything from them, happy to accommodate and assist them where me and my family can. Will be a great experience for them and us.
Dude I answered the question why US racing scene is horrible for the same reasons. All criterium and gravel races. 80s and 90s were much better. Today they can handle 160 right turns but not 160 km. Maybe the car centric society is the issue in that closing a stretch of road is harder than a loop in an industrial park.
You guys saw pictures of Froome legs. Muscle and skin. Froome was already doing these king of camps way back. Remco's camp was very intens. Lefevere felt sorry for him how he was torturing himself. But boy, how it paid off.
Interesting discussion re: Worlds. Kinda made me think about when worlds were last in the US, Richmond Virginia was totally not what I was expecting..... Hardly an epicenter of cycling or representative of good cycling in the US. And road racing is dead in the US, mostly due to logistics, permitting and sponsorships. Much easier to put on crits with smaller road closures and gravel being off main roads.
So hear me out, the Ultimate is the ligther, less aero, slightly more relaxed geometry version of the Aeroad (race bike). Given the ride quality of the Aeroad is already good, isn't the Ultimate essentially their endurance bike, and the Endurace is the cheaper version of the Ultimate?! They look identical
@@nerocoaching the Ultimate's the lightweight racing/climbing bike, and the Endurace is the relaxed-geometry endurance bike. But yeah, they do look really similar. I'd say the carbon layup's probably different too as the Ultimate's supposedly stiffer. I ride an Endurace but haven't ridden an Ultimate to compare.
US here: Legion is becoming a joke. The criterium scene has developed a buzz in the US that is great for the sport, post Lance scandal. We saw the fallout in road racing and we recovered via criterium racing and cross. We don’t send folks because our young see high intensity criterium racing as priority. We need a shift…and we need to get rid of the Legion as our voice of cycling in the US.
How Remco got lean? Simple, he’s reknown for snacking on pastries or everything in the house when he’s hungry. He has no issues in doing long days at home, it’s only being strict on his diet. He only has pastries and coke during training sessions now, but he will go back go snacking after the Vuelta. Pogacar doesn’t Need to lean out, he’lol probably cut out classics for Tour freshness.
I try to use my Oura ring to monitor my fitness. It's always telling me I'm a mess. Below 50 readiness scores all the frigging time. I don't think I'm meant to be super lean.
Training camps they get everything dialled to the max and their diet would be similar to what they eat during a race with similar sorts of food like chicken and rice etc
As an American, I would say that cycling gets little of NO positive response from most msm. Kids are not seeing cycling at an early age in schools. Combine that with in America nearly all the races are Crits. Very few road races, stage racing is nearly non existent. Lots of reasons. As far a Legion team goes...they only do what's good for the Williams brothers.
The cost of participation is a major hurdle, but it seems like high costs are becoming universal with income inequality growing more and more which ensures that it will more and more remain a sport for the wealthy.
There's some weird vibe running through Americans right now that is hostile to road racing. You can see it in RUclips comments. Sometimes in US cycling publications. People attack road racing as toxic or too aggressive or they attack it to promote gravel racing as so much more superior. I'm a Gen Xer and I just don't understand these people. Something in the 90s/2000s really screwed them up. They're just weird, very self-indulgent, soft, and make a virtue out of not really caring about anything except the current thing on social media. The only reason criterium racing is getting play is because of the "diversity" represented by Legion. Honestly.
My issue with the current Canyon Aeroad (a part from the seatpost which is unacceptable from a top dollar bike) and the new Ultimate is that you can't change the stem length because Canyon won't sell you a different cockpit and it uses a proprietary system so you can't buy an aftermarket one. Imagine spending 10k on a bike and you can't change a basic thing like stem lenght
Ridiculous!!
First episode and you already have us Americans worked up 😂. Many commenters have pointed out the logistical nightmare of hosting a road race which makes gravel and crit races more popular here. I think another factor that affects this is the level of fan enjoyment. After all, race organizers need sponsors and sponsors want to sell products. So the events need to involve the fans a lot in order to capture American audiences. Crit racing, similar to CX, does this well because fans get to see the racers multiple times and there’s usually music and other festivities at the larger events. And the fans can take in a full slate of races in an afternoon vice seeing the peloton speed through for a few minutes and then watching the rest of the race on their phone.
Indeed. American sports fans are accustomed to seeing all the action in a confined space, but Europeans clearly will wait hours in a spot of their choosing for the 5-10 minutes in which bike racers roll by.
I agree, but it's small thinking and short-sighted. American interest in cycling exploded each time we had real TDF contenders (LeMonde and Armstrong) that were worth millions (if not billions) to the domestic cycling industry and sponsors. With almost no domestic amateur or pro stage races, the chance of producing world tour capable riders is much lower, because they're training for the wrong kind of racing. Back in the day, there were 2 or 3 local stage races a month, and crits were considered training races (when not part of a stage race); now I get 2 or 3 a year (less since Covid). It appears to me USA Cycling isn't as interested in developing talent as it was when it was USCF, and it's costing our sport and cycling industry.
@@carlmons In the US, cycling is not seen as a pro sport by more than relatively small handful of people. Basketball, football, and baseball rule, with hockey coming in a distant fourth. "Pro" wrestling probably gets more air time and publicity than pro cycling.
I'm an American that moved to and raced in Spain. The community attitudes towards racing are polar opposites. Even if a race gets permitted in the States, there's almost always blowback from people living on the course that eventually make it next to impossible to keep the race going in subsequent years. Meanwhile in Spain, even smaller races will have a festive sign on, with a ribbon cutting ceremony, etc. And since racing is so diminished in the States, even the strong guys are done a disservice, as you end up with a few racers with potential bludgeoning a small 20 person peloton, not learning racecraft, positioning, etc. Then you roll over to Spain and you have up to 200 riders in a field, forcing you to be on point, read the race, position for echelons, etc. I don't know how it is in Oz, but my first season racing here was so hard. I had the physiology to survive, but not the acumen.
Im a strong CAT 4 and I'm thinking of making the same move next summer to get better and more frequent opportunities to race and get experience. Do you have any tips on racing in Spain? Like where and when most of the races are? My Spanish is good, so the language wouldn't be an issue for me at all.
@@loganj7238 there aren't categories here. There's age-based racing up through 23, then there's elite, which is effectively a P1/2 field. So you'll be need able to hang in those ranks, which may be possible, depending on what strong cat4 means. Also, to find a team you'll need to shop your race resume around and find a team looking to take you on. The easiest way is to go out on weekly worlds type rides and talk to people, etc, then have them put you in contact with their team management. Valencia is a hot spot, with tons of great riding. Madrid, the basque country, Asturias, etc are also hotbeds. I'm in Castilla y León, and it's a much smaller scene. Let me know if you have any more questions!
@@patgerke Thanks for the advice. I've got the power/fitness to hang with the upper cats here (~4w/kg 20 min 13-1400 5s), but I spend a lot of it making up position I lose through corners so when we get to the end I'm spent despite having 'sat in the group' the whole time. In theory I know exactly what I'm supposed to do, but getting the muscle memory and confidence to put it in practice has taken longer than I hoped. It's been tough since most races I can go to are $50 and 2+ hours away driving. I work remotely, so my thinking is that if I spend 3 months working/racing in Europe I can get more races / $ and time so that even if I get dropped I can do another race soon to try again without feeling like I wasted $125 in gas + entry each time.
I'll look into the areas you mentioned. Thanks!
@@loganj7238 awesome! Also, depending on your team, you probably won't be paying for race entries/lodging/etc
@@loganj7238 also, you don't need a team, but it makes life simpler. You will need a Spanish license, which, without residency, will require some paperwork, including a release from your American team, etc. Spain loves its red tape
I like the format of chatting on various cycling topics! In the USA cycling is considered a niche sport, not much support here. If you want to ride/race bikes it's on you, your parents, maybe friends or mentors.
Organized sports are popular like baseball, football, and basketball, because you don't have to shut down roads. Shutting down roads is a "mortal sin" and not tolerated. We had a stage race in my state of Missouri a few years ago. The governor of my state canceled the race even though the money was approved to fund the event and the event generated millions of dollars of revenue for the state. Things are not likely to change in the USA.;-(
'Muricuns demand to see everything laid out before them without any effort at all involved regarding viewing their populist 'sports'.
Given that, one would think that the few tracks in this country which have Friday night racing series in the summer (NO high school football to compete with, only maybe some MLB baseball games on TV) would be sold out every time.
But no, they are NOT.
I guess there just is not enough overt, condoned as part of the 'game', violence between oversized, enhanced players to get and hold the U.S. populace's attention and interest??
Free for all, 'argy bargy' REQUIRED to compete, Match Sprints, Keirins, and scratch races anyone???
I’m a junior rider that’s going to the national Championships (USA)but the reason you don’t see the world Tour have US riders is because there is little connection between European racing and American racing so we’ve diverged into our own scene. I’m built for European racing (a climber), but it’ll be rare for me to win anything big in the states so you don’t get noticed and the guys that do win big are 85 kg time trialists that only care about crits and sprint finishes
Really interesting comment Dante. It sounds very similar to the situation we have in Australia. The actually racing is limited and in no ways represents the races in Europe … I mean I have done “road racing tours” that feature ONLY crits. Given the actual level of talent in the US, it just seems the rate of guys going WT isn’t as high as it should be. Thanks again for your comment Dante, stay in touch.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Matteo Jorgenson talked about it in the Trainer road podcast a couple weeks ago but the racing dynamic between US road races and European ones are way to different. He said that it is really hard for all the U23 riders to break through to the world tour ranks and even if they are a strong cyclist, they struggle with positioning on European roads whereas US roads are typically 2-3 lanes wide each side and even smaller roads can fit at least 2-3 large cars side by side.
He said the one thing that US Juniors has over the European cyclist is that the riders learn to use data in their training from a very young age whereas he sees European Juniors go balls out for the first couple years and even if they had power meters they don't really use it.
Great content fellas! As an American myself I wish we had more proper road races that are over 100 miles. Unfortunately, Americans want instant gratification and I don’t think fans as well as other road cyclists can stand how “boring” a 100 mile road race can be.
I also think American media plays a huge part on how “cool” Legion looks when they are dominating their little BS crit races against amateurs every weekend! It’s a joke in my opinion.
Unfortunately, it’s not going to change anytime soon and you won’t be seeing an American win the TDF in the near future or any other Grand Tour or Monument.
Cheers from San Diego, California.
Just catching up and watching this video and I couldn't agree more about Legion. They are content to stay in their little bullshit crit bubble where they are beating up on amateurs that have jobs and families and have to juggle everything to race. Those guys are more concerned about the social media crap and being seen as "influencers" more than anything else. Weren't even remotely competitive in the Maryland road race which exposes what frauds they are.
There are hardly any "road races" in the states. It's all Criteriums and Circuit Races. In my area, Cyclocross is the most popular discipline of racing. A lot of my peers wish we had more opportunities to ride in a proper road race. I think the lack of stage/road races is due to the difficulty in getting permits to close down roads for 100+ KM and more. It's much easier to host a crit.
I recently put on the Granville Road Race (in Granville Ohio). It was the races first year and every participant was insanely excited about it. We were able to get a strip of road downtown closed, but other than that the roads were open with police at every corner managing traffic. It was horrifically expensive and the only reason we didn't lose money was because of sponsors. Who knows if sponsors will be back next year...this is American cycling
It gets harder each here in Europa also, stricter rules for guards on the route etc is doing that already many road races Have been canceled
I was about to comment the same thing. This year 2 stage races were cancelled, a few road races, and only 2 TTs made the cut. Road racing and stage racing is dying here in the US.
@@CarbonRider1 is this why gravel racing is becoming so popular? Like its the alternative
@@TheAcfallejoseph it is a combination of issues I think. Gravel is more inclusive, the culture is more open, easy going and fun. Racers tend to be a lot more serious, while gravel is about the adventure, regardless of how fit you are. There is food after gravel races, and community regardless of your FTP. Road racing lacks all of this; we don't even have a food truck after the race. That being said, the big price for gravel races / adventures, which has people signing up in the 100s, is likely cutting into the road race market share in a huge way.
There is also the fact that the lower categories, like 3s, are often stuck racing 1/2 races, so it makes it tough to upgrade, or even not get dropped, so you aren't racing, you are just holding on, which isn't fun. Imagine going from a cat 4 to a cat 3, and lining up next to guys who are state and national champs.
Thanks guys. I like the format. Keep it up. Your conversation about bikes was interesting but no one brings up the price of bikes and the effect they have on the sport. Gobal cycling, IMHO, is in trouble when (competitive) bikes and accessories are so expensive that you exclude poor kids from the sport. Even from wealthy countries. How can this be sustainable to attract new great talents and for the sport to grow. Looking at the U15 and U17 bikes at the recent Australian nationals underscores this. The alternative for lower socio-economic kids is to get a pair of shoes and play football or go running. Something to discuss I think.
Cycling is expensive. I do it as a favorite past time and exercise and I've spent a small fortune just because I like some of the better stuff. I could never afford to provide a sibling with what it would take to make his dream come true of being a World Tour rider. I'm sure this is the case for most kids that actually have talent. Many don't get to meet those that could sponsor them. It's a damn near impossible dream. So Crit races and gravel races are as close to being a successful racer as they can see. By the way ENVE, releasing a new bike frame that costs $8000 is proving my point.
On Bobby and Jens recent pod they talked to Karsten Kroon, and he talked about how dialed in and hard these camps are, physically but also on the riders emotionally. The younger guys are stronger because of this, but how long they can do it for remains to be seen.
Interesting I’ll check that Pod out. Thanks Jason.
U.S. interest in international pro cycling took a nose dive after the doping scandals of the Armstrong era of the late 90s / early 2000s. Recovery has been slow, and we see occasional U.S. cyclists in the TdF and other European races (Sepp Kuss comes to mind). But they are exceedingly rare, as they were back in the days of Greg Lemond's ascendance. Without a significant fan base for pro cycling in the U.S., resources won't be available to train young cyclists in the sport. The doping scandals of 20 years ago killed fan interest over here. It's slowly building, but will take a lot of time - hopefully without further scandals. Cycling has become sort of a freak sport, much like pro wrestling. As a U.S. cycling fan going back to the 80s, I find it sad. I appreciate your youtube channel contributions, and your interest in what's going on with the U.S. scene. There's an avid fan base for pro cycling here, but we're few and mostly aging boomers from the last century. Like I say, sad.
Great format! Really thoughtful takes and a great addition to the discussion of cycling culture.
Oh that’s awesome to hear Robin. I know the format wasn’t perfect, but great to hear you enjoyed the overall style.
My biggest issue is Woolongong is cost prohibitive for spectators. It's hard to get to and there's limited accommodation. I wanted to take the family but for the price it's hard to justify, when as much as I want to share my passion with my family, they'd get a lot of enjoyment out of a "traditional" holiday.
That’s a great comment Ben. There seems to be little or no thought given to inter state or regional visitors…my cynical impression is it’s purely set up to be a TV special. That’s again for your comment Chris
Love the format! Love the casual chat approach, fun and interesting topics, serious stuff and bit of goss, really cool.
So glad you enjoyed it mate. It was a little rough and we will definitely play with the whole format, but delighted to hear you liked the overall concept.
Very fun pod. Throwing some opinion haymakers, too! Good stuff. Keep it casual, have a guest (recent Aussie TDF podium retiree), lengthen it out. Keep it up!
Hey Korey, cheers for the comment mate. Yeh I think some guest would be cool (assuming we get them off the boring talking points), but most of the main Aussie pros are from the Aus Cycling bubble, so I doubt they would waste their time with us. But who knows, I’m more then happy to send a few DM’s and see what happens.
Spot on about Legion. There are other smaller conti and domestic teams that were willing to take on European racing at least... Project Echelon and Wildlife Generation.
Love this format. Two blokes feel I can trust. More please.
Chris that Grand Seiko is gorgeous!
♥️
"No one buys the Ultimate" , is nonsense In Europe, with the huge Gran Fondo Marathon Event Scene people still prefer all-round climber over area.
Very minimalist and simple show which I enjoyed as long time ago gcn. Love it, keeep going this format simple. Especially thanks for your thoughts
Oh that’s great to hear Robertas! Thanks for letting us know.
Definitely enjoy the longer format and the banter between the two of you.
Quinn Simmons, Magnus Sheffield, Matteo Jorgensen, Kevin Vermaerke, Sepp Kuss, Brandon McNulty, Neilson Powless, etc… and soon Luke Lamperti go straight to Europe after junior development. They don’t really bother with the US domestic teams.
these are riders interested in being a pro rider... not a social media star LOL
It's pretty much always been that way, with the possible exception of the original 7 Eleven team when it was first formed.
LeMond was not hanging around riding crits for Avocet for very long way back then. 😉
@@redfixfive that's a dumb uneducated comment. Justin Williams went to Europe and weas on a devo team to become a pro. Culturally it sucked. Performance wise, he was dominate. Ask Phinney. Now you make comments about not being a pro when he's at the retirement age for most European riders shows how much more you are interested in the public opinions versus the ability.
We've had races cancelled here in California because they can't get enough registrations to break even when you add up all of the costs. Especially the cost of X number of police required, permits, porta-loos. So we get stuck with Crits every weekend in some industrial, office park. Hit the nail on the head when it comes to Legion. They're a crit team and enjoy being the big fish in the small pond. I doubt that the money would keep flowing into them if they went to Europe to race and can't deliver the results.
.. so why would they want to move to Europe? .. the $$$ for them comes from the US
Great video and discussion Chris. Would love to see more of this, as well as viewer submitted questions for the show, guests as soon as you wish to make the show fully fledged!
Awesome vid Miller and Coyle!! Can we get something on the nationals masters coming up? Also the Sydney races that are coming up and local crits you guys want to do?
Hey Larry thanks for the comment. Been trying to do some stuff on the local scene lately, unfortunately they don’t seem to get much traction, but we will keep trying.
Set of lungs on a stick! That is brilliant! Dude should trademark that.
Great discussion. As an American amateur cyclist (CAT 3), I have a couple thoughts on the lack of American pros. (We do have some very solid WT Pros at the moment, but y'all are right. There should be more.) 1. Cycling was massive during the USPS days. Lance was God. When the doping admission happened, Americans as a whole just disliked the sport. I think it really took a hit due to that.
2. Continuing the above, that USPS riders were pretty much all Americans. Easy to cheer for. One team. Red, white, and blue. Dominant, etc. Now, we have American teams in the WT, but there isn’t that group of Americans on those teams. Our best riders are spread throughout UAE, Jumbo, Trek, BikeExchange, etc. I have been screaming for years for Trek to just go all in and sign every American possible. Good crop right now with Kuss, McNulty, Simmons, Craddock, Magnus.
3. Location matters. I am fortunate to live in Utah. Tons of road races, mountains, they used to have a UCI race here (Tour of Utah). However, a vast majority of the country is not like that. And as has been mentioned, the sport isn’t big enough and the money isn’t there to persuade cities, states, etc. to make races easier. ie Close off roads, get infrastructure in place to race. 4. LEGION has the money, but that is about it. I dont think there is another Domestic team that really has any cash.
Great stuff - an interesting casual chat between 2 mates on current cycling topics. Might see you at the gong
Glad you enjoyed it mate. Look I know it was far from perfect, but I think as a test case we have something here …. Things to work on, but I’m so glad you enjoyed the idea. Chris.
My 2016 Ultimate Ultegra rim brake was just on 7kg out of the box. The Dura Ace equipped was about 6.8kg. Weight is added now for disc brakes. The frames are already paper light so the weight savings they are making are in the rest of the build, not so much the frame/fork/wheels or group set but in the details of the rest of the construction process.
Cheers for the comment Brett. Did you like the format of the episode?
@@ChrisMillerCycling like it a lot Chris. Personally this is a good mix of information and discussion I like to listen to. Some good insights. e.g. I’ve been wondering about these pro team training camps and now it’s really got my head spinning !!
PS I’m going to be looking very closely at the new Ultimate. I don’t need the all out race geometry of the Aeroad and my bike fitter last time told me the Ultimate geometry was more suited to my aged body but it’s still a performance frame
You guys need to do a podcast! Love this type of content. Nicely done guys
One step at a time mate. Thanks for letting its know, really appreciate it.
Changing the camera frame rate to stop the flicker of the fliro lights would be good. Other than that, longer, shorter, whatever. Just make it and I'll watch. Always great thanks lads
Yeh my bad Rowan, we tried a few different shots … and then when we actually recorded I didn’t realise the second camera was filing at 30fps 🤦🏻
Given that you are talking about the World Tour and the Aussie domestic scene, it would be great if you could get an interview with Cameron Meyer (now that he's just retired) to get his perspective on the differences, be they good, bad or otherwise.
HAHA!! Great idea, but not too sure the “bubble boys” even know we exist. There is a real inner circle in Australian cycling, they don’t tend to waste their time with people not in their circle. Thanks for the idea though Joan.
Hey Chris, its not a format thar i would normally watch but i decided to give it a go as i have been enjoying your content. I actually really enjoyed it .... definitely worth doing some more 👌 👏 🙌
Oh that’s great to hear Neil. Look I know it wasn’t perfect by any stretch, but we wanted to try something we feel wasn’t out there (especially in terms of content covered). We will keep working on it. Thanks Chris.
@@ChrisMillerCycling no, i liked it and enjoyed watching 👍 like a bit of controversial conversation 😀 👍
Good format, I think 30+ mins is the sweet spot. Maybe 45 when you have a guest host... The topics are spot-on with enough info that's not too much into the weeds. I really appreciate the pushback when there are disagreements, and you guys don't shy away from being critical of others... good on you. One area I haven't heard on the podcast is the discussion on TRI and those bikes... are they just TT bikes in a different sport? Maybe that's not your content-wheelhouse... But a lot of Pro Triathletes come out of Australia, do they not? Regardless, good stuff... I'm a subscriber!
After the recent podcasts, is jesse opinion on the pinarello clone the same?
I always enjoy your pod. Keep up the good work. I think you have it right on US cycling. No incentive to promote road racing, Crits seem to provide the easiest racing event to organized at a low cost. Gravel can be pushed as the anti-road (road is a Euro thing). I would like to see all cycling disciplines be promoted.
I always though that the main purpose of altitude training camps was to NATURALLY raise the rider's hematocrit levels to the highest they can be without EPO doping. ???
The added benefit over just sleeping in a hypoxic tent is that one can do long mountain climbs at the same time and develop those specific muscle groups and skills, a win-win.
7:40 The Aeroad and Ultimate have the same stack and reach. How is the Ultimate an "endurance bike" ?
I think training in high heat is more beneficial than altitude training for the TDF and the Vuelta. It's hard to do both.
Riders changing their body type to a stick with lungs is the result of the grand tour organizers making the tours hill climb competitions. They need to be more balanced with longer tt's and stages which favor a stronger rider.
Skinny Remco won the TT anyway
Like you said, Legion is a crit team, not a road race team. I'm not a huge fan of the team, but saying their performance in a road race was a "test" for them and that by failing that test, they are irrelevant is absurd. Road racing in America is dead, but I don't think you guys appreciate how big the gravel scene is in the US. It's HUGE and keeps growing. That is where American cycling is focused. Lastly, Matteo Jourgensen, Neilson Powless, Sepp Kuss, Brandon McNulty, Quinn Simmons and his up and coming brother etc... Guys, this is the best crop of young American talent in years. What're you talking about?
Yeah I agree. That would be like me saying the gravel scene is dead in Austalia. it wouldn't make sense to say that because that's not the direction cycling is going in that area of the world. This conversation about American cycling feels pretty arrogant. Feels like they're turning a blind eye to some of the htters coming out of America. Also, no crap a crit team isn't hanging in a pro road race. These guys are machines in an all out hour effort.
They are proving themselves to be a crit team, but that's not what they've stated their goal is, which is where it rubs people (me included) the wrong way. They registered this year as a UCI Continental team which you would only do if you wanted access to international level road racing. And they've signed riders who are not culturally diverse, with a pure road racing background (look at the riders on their UCI squad). They also entered Marylands which is a 1.PRO road race! This is why it was considered a test for me, they swagger around amateur crits towelling everyone up, and now we got to see what they are like racing in the actual category of racing they pay to compete in
There is 330m people in the USA, and a GDP of $21 Trillion. Relative to that, the performance of US riders is not up to scratch. Compare it to the Aussies at the moment. Chris mentioned one of the reasons could be because the gravel scene is so big, that is exactly the point he was making...
@@nerocoaching Jesse you lose a lot of credibility in my eyes when you make the condescending statement "red white ans blue where are you" when there's been Americans front and center in all of the grand Tours. This is the best crop of cyclists America has seen in a looooong time. You're a very smart individual. Cmon dude. You even have guys like 19 year old Magnus Sheffield tearing it up for Ineos at the world tour level. People just love to hate Americans.
@@djseitz425 Wow you're way off, I don't hate Americans. By any objective measure, USA is currently underperforming in professional road cycling, taking into account the population and money the country has. Fed in part, as we speculate, by having a strong gravel and crit bubble which pulls a lot of attention. It's not hating, it's just interesting. It's not even a hot take, it's a common opinion. Look at Tour of California and Tour of Utah which aren't running anymore (I've done Tour of Utah, amazing race).
What do these countries think it's like for us in NZ, Oz, Africa, Sth America to have a WC in Europe nearly every yr?
Longer. More often. We need more!
Very informative and most enjoyable,,,,I wish you did a podcast but there is only so much time in a day
👌🏽 more of this - better than a deep dive and prefer to rapid fire like q and a
You guys made an astute observation about the US, cycling is dying a slow death. I live in the Seattle area, and all of the local teams are mostly just clubs that do only crits. Time Trials are completely gone, the closest ones are in California. I gave up and started doing triathlons so I could actually race my TT bike. That’s what I observe locally, but I think the death of cycling is pervasive in the US.
Hey Chris, cheers for the comment. Don’t get me wrong the state of bike racing in Australia is pretty bad as well, It’s really disappointing given the amount of talent on both sides. That said I do think that Australians tend to be more willing to just take a risk and go to Europe by themselves to try it, I wonder whether the American guys are willing to take that risk. Thanks again for your comment and hopefully you might subscribe as well.
Remember when Patrick Lefevere said Remco was fat, I think that’s where the impetus for his transformation comes from. Tadeij looks the same as last year. Excellent speculation and comment on cycling camps, though, a bit eye opening.
As a Brit living (and racing bikes) in the US I have a few observations. America can easily produce top athletes, it has the population, money, climate and terrain to do so. If cycling boomed right now in popularity, in the next few years there would be many top US cyclists. You have to follow the money though, and there’s little in road racing from an amateur standpoint (or professional for that matter), let’s be honest, it’s boring to watch as a spectator if not televised, they leave then show up again 4 hours later.
Tulsa Tough is more of a festival then a race, half the people there have probably never ridden a bike, but they’re having fun in an awesome atmosphere and get to see racers wiz by every minute, that is something that can be more easily monetized and we can already see the growth in crits throughout other countries now too.
Crit fitness is also much different to road race fitness, you can’t really compare them side by side. There’s many international riders here that come over thinking it’ll be easy to race crits at a high level only to find out that’s not the case. I think it would be a great series to have some of the Nero squad come over and race the US crits!
America does have development teams that road race in Europe (Lux and Hot Tubes), however Lux is shutting down after this season because of funding.
Really interesting comment Jmac … in all honesty it sounds so familiar to what we are facing here. What I will say about the Aussies, we seem to be more willing to “give Europe a go” without any real support, guys just go over and race. Do you hear of many Americans doing that? Or do they all feel like they need a team or a federation to help them?
@@IlPinnacolo it's still bike riding mate, the physical demands aren't that different.
The reason anyone serious goes to Europe for the kermesse scene instead of to the US to race crits is because the level isn't even close.
@@7metalfingers AGREED!
I always remember some of our Yanks going over to Holland/Belgium/etc. (some individuals DID just 'pick up and go' to try their luck/test themselves/try to break into a pro contract) to race their kermesses, and coming back testifying to the INSANE speed they are raced at, and their general combativeness.
@@IlPinnacolo ah right, that old argument.
Done many kermesse's mate?
@@IlPinnacolo so only those that have raced them can have opinions now?
I've got a unique perspective as my coach is a US 'crit pro' and I've seen what it actually takes to race over there.
I also ride/race locally with the Aussies that do regular euro trips, I know why our institutes stopped sending them to America for races.
But I guess if I don't quit my job and blow my savings to fund a US trip I've just got no idea 🤷
20 or more years ago, there was a big movement of Australian and NZ motorcycle road racers to Europe. There were relatively few Americans. Then when you looked at the American situation, people were making money at club-level racing. They seem to get off on being "pros", but their pros would seem likely to struggle at the Australian club level. There was lots of support from the trade (who had a huge local market), they were admired by their peers, they got to live in big comfortable houses. They didn't need to tear up their training programs and riding styles to adapt to the local conditions.
You can probably join the dots to bicycles.
I wonder though, before Phil Anderson won a stage at the TdF, whether Australia was so different? I was only riding a bicycle for training, but the race scene seemed to about crits and people running 13-18 rear cassettes. The owner of my local bike shop loned me his race bike and it was like a gym session to get up the local 4% climb. There were some long one-day races, but they looked sort of like "super crits", ie 300km of flat roads and big guys pumping huge watts against the wind. I wasn't really paying so much attention, it would be interesting to go back and ask some people of the time...
Basically though, it's about suffering. What are you willing to do to succeed, which is driven by your local conditions. You can still hear the bitterness in Lance Armstrong talking about how little support cycling gets in the US (compared, implicitly, to baseball and basketball and NFL... all US invented sports). There are no rich kids lining up to become boxers, there are easier ways to get a comfortable lifestyle. An Australian who attempted the European stage race scene told me that the problem was racing against kids off some southern European town where they could work on the chicken farm, and who would do *anything* to escape that bubble. At the time that meant speed and opioids and later, epo. Now it means altitude camps, continuous glucose monitoring, daily blood checks... and doubtless other techniques of "marginal gains" like Tramadol and Stilnox and... He decided it was better to move back to Sydney and sell insurance.
All of those crits, PLUS of course your country/sponsors supporting the riders with resources (coaching, INDOOR BOARD TRACKS!, etc.) is why your compatriots have had so much success on the world TRACK cycling stage.
Having had some great track standouts (mostly match sprinters/kilo riders) way back in the Anderson era, and even before then, did not hurt the cause either. 😉
Day 35 patiently waiting for the rant vlog Chris. Seriously though good format 👍🏻
Massive fan of the dual camera angle so you can see both of you. Personally find it frustrating with a lot of podcasts that are constantly moving back-and-forth between two/three guests.
That’s for that. Sorry about the flickering light, I stuffed up the FPS on the 2nd camera
@@ChrisMillerCycling I only noticed upon re-watch after your comment! 😅
The World Championships will be hit hard because of the "point' battle that the World Tour Teams are facing now. Several riders have already been prevented from doing the Worlds as their team want them to gain points in other races.
Yeah, like the format, discussion. :)
Thanks Mark
Great format..Do do this while watching you riding at the same time would be good
American here. Fellas, we have no history of the OE (overseas experience). That whole travel mindset is totally different, before the cycling thing. Where I live, you can barely find anyone who was even been to the coasts of the US. People would have no idea how to just go and would have no one to meet up with once there. Also, gravel is the thing of the moment
There is a small, quite nondescript hotel that I pass often at the Port d'Envalira in Andorra at 2400m. At certain times of the year the tiny carpark outside is like a who's who of world tour mens of womens cars and Van's. Life there is definitely no frills! Hotel Pic Maia.
Love this video format BTW 👍🏼
Cheers Simon! Really appreciate that one
You guys are right, Pogachar didn’t do the Vuelta so that he could start this process.
I so hope he design “lean out” … I love the POG as he is.
We don't have much road racing here in the USA! Everything is crit racing or gravel. It's too difficult and too expensive for promoters to shut down roads.
There's really no reason for a US team to even pay for a UCI license - we barely have any UCI road racing over here. L39ion bought their license so they could call themselves pros. They're really the only team here besides Human Powered Health that has any money. Project Echelon, another strong team in America, is what USA Cycling calls a "Domestic Elite Team" and they do go over to Europe for about a month each season with their top riders. They tend to outride L39ion in proper road races/stage races. Honestly, they would have been a better fit for the Maryland Cycling Classic and it's a bit of a shame they weren't selected/invited for the race.
Crits are where the big races are and where the prize money is found, so the bigger teams tend to focus on those rather than blowing an entire year's budget on going to Europe for very little in return.
This is good stuff just throwing observation up for chat 👍. Cervelo frames. 28mm tyres now not 100psi on 25’s
very nice format
The UCI stamp is a revenue generator for the UCI. Manufacturers have to pay to have the bike listed and carry the stamp. The whole system is joke when you dive into it
Ha, getting Americans to watch a local road race is probably harder than getting them to watch first class cricket. Not gonna happen, that's where the issue is. Crits and maybe 1 day races take all the attention, therefore no sponsors for multi-day races at a state level, therefore, very few well honed national multi-day race riders.
Conversely, I believe Lance did more damage to the image of pro US cyclists in America itself, than the rest of the world. Americans don't trust their own pro-cyclists anymore. So hard to get sponsors to back teams/riders all the way to UCI world tour level.
TRUE, as so many of the 'Muricun sports fans used that whole debacle to diss our sport even more than they did before that crap.
Of course, they cannot see their own blatant hypocrisy, given the rampant PED use by their very own worshiped stick and ball sports 'heroes'.
There is that too. So true. Good points.
Unfortunately Road racing in America has a stigma of guys being too good for the common person. I have experienced this. It is unfortunate but true, That is why gravel is blowing up all over the world as most people whom ride and race gravel races are attempting to be as inclusive as possible. Making others feel welcome in a world that is completely crazy seems to be the way to go right now. Excellent take and discussion. Looking forward to more.
You need a little scripting and polish but otherwise yeah, good vibe. I like the idea of a ‘burning issues’ or ‘what’s keeping Jesse and Chris awake at night’ thing.
You guys should do this chat on a bike ride with talking points written on your stem.
In regards to training camps, have you thought about offering those as part of Nero training? As trusted stalwarts of Australian cycling on RUclips, I am sure there would be a lot of interest if you do run camps (perhaps in the lead up to big events like Peaks).
I like the new format.
And, yes, we're all about the crits over here. I think they play on our short attention spans? They can be quite the events for spectators and vendors, so there's probably a dash of overt capitalism on top. I find it a thoroughly exciting form of racing, but I live in Boise, Idaho where we have a big one (The Twilight).
I enjoy your content. Well done.
Cycling is not pushed as a sport in America. Cycling is expensive as we know. Most kids who go into sports have to go in the direction of the less expensive options in basketball, baseball, soccer, football. That's what we see more of in everyday life. That's where the money is at. Legion is not the only team but yes they have a big media footprint. But the are a crit team trying to break into a different discipline. I would not expect instant winning, that's dumb. You wouldn't expect a 100m sprinter to be good at a 5000m race, would you? I would think 16th is a good finish.
Yes the cost associated with road races, I think, has killed the sport in America. It's more cost effective and fan friendly to do crits and circuit racing. The mighty dollar rules it all. Even with gravel racing they are on open roads with no traffic. They themselves have a low overhead I would think. The cheaper races to have are what's popular here. At least this is what I see it as.
14k that’s out of reach to many riders. I’m sure some companies are taking the piss with these prices.
This was awesome. Thanks guys
Glad you enjoyed it mate. Hopefully more to come.
excellent content, especially about the USA and Legion
Thanks Chris and Jesse!
and Bridgelane even got a mention Wendy 😂
Hello, could you provide some videos or sources on those altitude/scientific camps for procyclists? I am really interested in what exactly they do there. Thanks!
Fantastic format. Really good choice of topics.
Glad you enjoyed it Andy. Look I know the format wasn’t perfect, but it’s hopefully a good starting point.
looking at how well the small population of NZ is represented in all form of cyclesport compared to the US i'm guessing it's down to one thing....lottery funding...The ecomomy tanks and private funding dries up but we keep on gambling....
We need to tap into the pokies money here in NSW … the most constant revenue stream in Australia 🙄
I am still amazed that a whole contingent of Kiwis come over here to T-Town in the states every non-Olympic year summer!
I guess racing on an always WINDY outdoor concrete 333.3 track is almost like some additional resistance training as compared to a perfect, indoor, 250 meter wooden bowl??
I think the main issue with US pros making it to the world tour isn't about money. They're not rolling in cash here. The problem is we advance riders who are crit racers through the ranks here and it simply doesn't translate to actual road racing. There's only so many spots for 165 lb sprinters in the WT. The us WT riders often get there without most American fans knowing who they even are until they make a WT team. We basically never heard of Magnus Sheffield until he was making waves in a WT race. US road racing is dead.
A couple things I haven’t seen mentioned re: road racing in the US:
1. No media coverage at all. Lance really hollowed out the sport here. The only road races on TV are on cable, even the TdF, and have 5 minutes of commercials every 3 minutes. So what little there is isn’t watchable. But even relatively big races like the Giro and Flanders get no coverage here. The major sports outlets like ESPN and the Athletic don’t even have staff for cycling.
2. Riding on the road can be dangerous anywhere, so that’s not unique to us. What is unique is an obsession with violence, and so riding on the road is *perceived* as being a death wish more than other places. Everyone here is thinking about how a stranger might kill them today, same reason why everyone has a gun here. It’s really the perception of risk that sets it apart… which is why the States’ two biggest contributions to cycling are off road: creating the mountain bike scene and now gravel.
(btw, thanks for bringing that up as a topic. I’ve often wondered how Australia is producing so many more top pros than the States with 1/10th the population)
I wonder how the sorry state of US healthcare factors in too
@@BrianMcDonald Certainly a piece of it too. I always take my insurance card with me in case I get knocked unconscious… if an ambulance takes you to the wrong hospital you can get hit with a six figure bill
Great insight on the remco situation
Liked the format a lot. My question:- I have one real cycling goal - sub 9 min up My Cootha Back (Brisbane). I'm about 30 seconds away right now. Currently my training structure is ride up it as many times as I'm can. Best tips for me?
If your one goal in life is to increase your 8-9min power, I would suggest repeating efforts above and below what you can hold.
Would love to hear your thoughts on track cycling in Aus. Seems to be a big scene of pro’s and a lot of athletes do well at the comm/Olympics games and even get selected for world tour teams. Is there a big nexus between track cycling and getting into the world tour for Aussie athletes or is it a limited pathway?
MASSIVE can of worms that one, and one we will look at. What would be cool there is maybe bring in a guest who has been in that ‘bubble’ to give us the opinion of someone on the inside. To let you in behind the curtain a little, one of the reasons we started Nero as a race team was to find the guys who had fallen through the cranks of the track obsessed Australian cycling scene, so we are potentially a little bias.
But cool idea Jeremy, let’s keep it on the list.
Big, strong, team/individual pursuiters (and maybe even kilo riders) do make great Grand Tour prologue/TT stage riders, as well as phenomenal lead-out train members for the designated sprinters. 😉
Please do more of these!
Thanks for letting us know Carl. Look I know it wasn’t perfect, we’ll keep working on the format, but great to hear you enjoyed the style.
I’m hosting a women’s elite team at many home. Not expecting anything from them, happy to accommodate and assist them where me and my family can. Will be a great experience for them and us.
Dude I answered the question why US racing scene is horrible for the same reasons. All criterium and gravel races. 80s and 90s were much better. Today they can handle 160 right turns but not 160 km. Maybe the car centric society is the issue in that closing a stretch of road is harder than a loop in an industrial park.
Keep it up boys, love how you say what others are to scared to say. Be interested to see a preview show of this seasons Heffron series.
nice chat
You guys saw pictures of Froome legs. Muscle and skin. Froome was already doing these king of camps way back. Remco's camp was very intens. Lefevere felt sorry for him how he was torturing himself. But boy, how it paid off.
Interesting discussion re: Worlds. Kinda made me think about when worlds were last in the US, Richmond Virginia was totally not what I was expecting..... Hardly an epicenter of cycling or representative of good cycling in the US. And road racing is dead in the US, mostly due to logistics, permitting and sponsorships. Much easier to put on crits with smaller road closures and gravel being off main roads.
Chris, you're confusing Canyon's Ultimate and Endurace - they're different bikes! Good show - especially liked Jessie starting a beef with Legion 😆
So hear me out, the Ultimate is the ligther, less aero, slightly more relaxed geometry version of the Aeroad (race bike). Given the ride quality of the Aeroad is already good, isn't the Ultimate essentially their endurance bike, and the Endurace is the cheaper version of the Ultimate?! They look identical
@@nerocoaching the Ultimate's the lightweight racing/climbing bike, and the Endurace is the relaxed-geometry endurance bike. But yeah, they do look really similar. I'd say the carbon layup's probably different too as the Ultimate's supposedly stiffer. I ride an Endurace but haven't ridden an Ultimate to compare.
@@nerocoaching to your point, new Ultimate just launched and Canyon made the stack and reach identical to the Aeroad.
@@patrickallen4789 Ahhhh bingo. That makes more sense!
Don't forget to mention the Kennecort injections, they really strip the weight!
😂
US here: Legion is becoming a joke. The criterium scene has developed a buzz in the US that is great for the sport, post Lance scandal. We saw the fallout in road racing and we recovered via criterium racing and cross. We don’t send folks because our young see high intensity criterium racing as priority. We need a shift…and we need to get rid of the Legion as our voice of cycling in the US.
How Remco got lean? Simple, he’s reknown for snacking on pastries or everything in the house when he’s hungry. He has no issues in doing long days at home, it’s only being strict on his diet. He only has pastries and coke during training sessions now, but he will go back go snacking after the Vuelta. Pogacar doesn’t Need to lean out, he’lol probably cut out classics for Tour freshness.
As a member of the POG fan club, I really hope he doesn’t go the full ‘lean out’ option.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Exactly, as just how 'lean' can he go and still TT like he does?!?
Love this format because you guys are opinionated.
Canyon ultimate cf slx...is da shiznit
Awesome ❤ keen!!
Yes, love this!
What’s happened to Vinegard since the TdF, has he had some kind of breakdown as a result of his extreme leanness?
Probably make more money doing the us crit scene than riding for any WT team
100% our point mate. Totally agree. Where as here in Oz, every scene (road, crit, gravel) is a joke, so you have to travel to make some money.
I try to use my Oura ring to monitor my fitness. It's always telling me I'm a mess. Below 50 readiness scores all the frigging time. I don't think I'm meant to be super lean.
Training camps they get everything dialled to the max and their diet would be similar to what they eat during a race with similar sorts of food like chicken and rice etc
As an American, I would say that cycling gets little of NO positive response from most msm. Kids are not seeing cycling at an early age in schools. Combine that with in America nearly all the races are Crits. Very few road races, stage racing is nearly non existent. Lots of reasons. As far a Legion team goes...they only do what's good for the Williams brothers.
The cost of participation is a major hurdle, but it seems like high costs are becoming universal with income inequality growing more and more which ensures that it will more and more remain a sport for the wealthy.
@@BrianMcDonald So...kids can afford $1000 dollar cell phones, $500 shoes, but can't find similar amounts if they want a road bike? LOL
There's some weird vibe running through Americans right now that is hostile to road racing. You can see it in RUclips comments. Sometimes in US cycling publications. People attack road racing as toxic or too aggressive or they attack it to promote gravel racing as so much more superior. I'm a Gen Xer and I just don't understand these people. Something in the 90s/2000s really screwed them up. They're just weird, very self-indulgent, soft, and make a virtue out of not really caring about anything except the current thing on social media. The only reason criterium racing is getting play is because of the "diversity" represented by Legion. Honestly.
Very good!