Hey! Timmy here. Quite and early morn upload Lessons learned . Great perspective from Jeff as always. We all fall victim of getting lost in the moment. Gotta really come up with a plan coming into these races. Also he's right..I kick myself pretty hard after this one, but I do end up winning the next race ;)
Hahaha. When your brain is low on O2, and you see your teammate up the road in the break, your oxygen-starved neurotransmitters are saying “Friend. Up. Ahead. Needs. Help. Must. Join. Him.”
Your last video “crash at Alviso” highlights Timmy’s issue perfectly. When you were both in the breakaway his drafting made my legs ache. The rear view camera shows it really well. Loving your videos, cheers from Down Under.
That's SF Bay. Most of the road bikes here are Specialized followed by Trek, Cannondale, and the rest are Italian bikes. Specialized and Santa Cruz also dominate the mountain bike scene here and I've only encountered 4 other Canyons
Acutally there are situations in which you should chase your teammate! E.g. your (tt-)Teammate went solo and get catched by 3 sprinters. Sure, the team shouldn't let this 3 sprinters break out, but sometimes we make mistakes. Here it's the best to 1. chase your own (tt-)Teammate and 2. the (tt-)Teammate should immediately stop taking pulls (if the team can somehow communicate with him). Another situation: Your team wants a field sprint (cause they have an epic sprinter), but to reduce/dodge the big amount of work to hold the field togehter, they always set one teammate in every group, to save them from the responsibility of chasing back. In the end of the race it's, again, good to chase your teammate back.
Oh, I don't know. It's easy to look smart if you win. Timmie's sprint was pretty good -- he had to fire really early because he was so far back. It's not his fault that his team mate got caught -- he never even pulled the trigger. In a race with no stakes, you have to just go when the pack is breathing down your neck -- someone's going to wind it up just for the sake of training or safety. I don't know, maybe the break was knackered and couldn't go anymore, but it looked to me like they were just looking at each other when Timmy ran them down.
@@NorCalCycling Sprinting 30 seconds out is too early, but you have to if you're that out of position. Really a no-win position. If winning is important to him, I would fault him more for 1) doing too much work earlier and 2) He needed to use a little more strength (or being more aggressive) on the final lap so that he hits the last 2 corners closer to the front. Of course, you were there and I've never been there, but my tendency in a training crit with riders of various levels is to go early so I can stay out of trouble -- if it's a tailwind or downhill I can hold most people off. 30 seconds out is a stretch though-- but should be enough for a placing.
Patience could have had roles reversed and he could have followed Jerome (though Jerome has more sense than to chase his teammate also) so you have to bank on someone else jumping early and slinging you by rather than slingshotting the best sprinter in the race to a free leadout. Yes- I don’t fault Timmy for this- after all, training races are for these lessons, but if he did the same thing again...I’d probably be much harsher :)
@@bryanlrsn7 Like I said, the fault was in his earlier actions. He lost Jerome's wheel and if he waited for someone to jump early, he'd be too far back to make any difference in the sprint. But the main "fault" lies in his partner in the break -- they were just looking at each other waiting to see who would go. Of course, it's easy to say if you're not on the limit. Theoretically, I guess you could fault him for not switching to the right and jumping up the gutter where Jerome would be picked, but a good sprinter knows that raw speed makes up for a lot of mistakes and sometimes you just have to take your shot.
Dude, do a video where you synthesize the top 5 or 10 golden rules of bike racing. I can’t remember them, but off the top of my head, they’re: don’t attack into a headwind, always have a reason for being on the front, attack when it slows down, and there were a bunch of others that I can’t recall...and what’s that one that keeps coming up again and again? This must be why I suck at racing...
I'm not racer, and if I were I'd be a road racer. I'm old and have no desire to break my neck racing crits. However, I love watching your vids because I like knowing strategies and concepts for the sport I most like watching. My question would be, do all these other racers actually watch your channel? Because if they do, they must have the sound turned off. You pretty much give them the keys to the kingdom if they have the legs and the lungs, but they just don't listen.
Regarding chasing team mates, I've raced cat c in Australia and uk and even tho you are on from the same club, there isn't really a team. You pay 30 to 40 dollars to enter a race, no one wants to ride around in the group because some person they ride with once a week in a group ride is off the front. Just wondering if it is different in the states or is it more because its a higher cat. The fact its a team with people taking roles. Do you pay fees each race or is that covered in yearly subs.
What you are saying is true at the lower levels of racing here in the States, but as you get to Cats 1-2, you just can't get away with that here. Teams that work together and have more guys end up winning.
I haven't tried crit racing and want to but afraid of crashing especially in cat 5. All these videos I watch are people actually communicating? Like on your left, on your right, etc?
Chase your teammate when he is vastly outgunned and you know he's gonna get dropped before the finish. Pay attention and if he starts looking back at you waving his arm frantically, start chasing. If you know with great certainty that the best your teammate is going to do is finish last in the sprint, you might as well chase. But you'd better get a better placing than last place in get breakaway. Also, chase him if he never shares prize money.
If your teammate is outgunned he should be sitting in the draft doing no work, prepared to counterattack, or not join the break to begin with. I guess chase him if you secretly hate him and want to sabatoge your team goals 🤷♂️.
@@NorCalCycling I just think that a blanket rule of never chasing a teammate is oversimplifying things. It’s a good general rule, but there are sometimes reasons to chase.
@@chrisko6439 my body fat is around 13-14% so I could probably lose a few percentages if I wanted to peak for a race but I’ve gone down to like 10% and I can sustain pretty good energy levels
If you want to get faster you need to get more aero, 1200w will win plenty of Pro level criteriums but not if you're a sail. Reducing your mass is always a benefit but the aero gain is ~22:1 (1 pound less aero drag = 22 pound less static mass) for speed.
I definitely saw several riders with their saddle too high. The back of the knee was snapping back on the down stroke. Definitely a bad sign and a waist of energy and economy
Zack would of won that sprint if timmy didn't do that. also timmy is a small rider so he is possibly scared to ride aggressive against the bigger riders reason he losses significant wheels (draft).
Zack's group was going too slow (27mph) to make it to the finish, even without the early jump from timmy the chasing group would have consumed the lead 3.
i used to bridge to my teammates just to be able to help them in the break but i would make sure no one could follow and we would win at eldorado park in so-cal, just depends on the situation i think.
Sprint from 360m with sprinters literally, on your wheel. Has a human other than MVDP ever won from that far out against good competition? I'd say, unless it was a MEGA tailwind or you were simply not racing strong competition, that long a sprint has never worked in the history of the known universe...
He launch with 350m remaining and sprinted for 33 seconds how could you expect him to put out a1000watts for the last 100m, it's just not possible for him. he should have waited for the second surge of that group that he was in to catch the break and launch off that surge.
Anyone here have an old road bike that hardly or doesn't use anymore? I would like everyone to know that I'm open for donations hehe. I always want to start road biking as a hobby and enjoy life as long as I'm still young... Btw I'm from Philippines and I'm 18 years old.
BTW in a break,if our non-sprinter is with other 5 sprinter and our sprinter is left behind in pelaton, chasing that group makes sense. And then sprinter counters🤔
Never chase your teammates? Bad, bad, BAD advice. Of COURSE there are situations when chasing a group that contains your teammate(s) makes tactical sense.
@@NorCalCycling a few years ago at the cat 3 la circuit race, our club had a situation where one of our members was in a break (of maybe about 5 guys). A fellow club member/teammate chased/bridged with one other non-teammate. The club member who crossed to the break, was a fairly new member - he started the year as a cat 5 -- so some of the club members who were watching weren't happy with his move; they echoed your blanket statement: "never chase your teammate." A few laps later, the club member who got "chased down" ended up dropping from the break -- I'm not sure why, but I think he just didn't have the fitness. The club member, who bridged to the break - taking another rider with him - ended up finding 2nd or 3rd. Given the venue, the size and depth of the field, a podium cat 3 finish for the club was a pretty damn good result. However, there were those club members who didn't think much of his tactics nor were they impressed with his placing. Imo, the guy being a new club member played into the uneasy feeling among some of those unhappy with his tactics. I've seen pro races where teammates have chased their teammates. When asked about it, the pros said they chased to "manage the gap." That is, they didn't want the break to get an insurmountable gap in case their teammate in the break had a flat or a mechanical. Granted, I'm not nor have I ever been a pro, but I doubt they felt they did something wrong.
Life goal : Get fit enough to be roasted on this channel.
"Never chase your teammate"
-Norcal Cycling(2017-death)
Hey! Timmy here. Quite and early morn upload
Lessons learned . Great perspective from Jeff as always. We all fall victim of getting lost in the moment. Gotta really come up with a plan coming into these races. Also he's right..I kick myself pretty hard after this one, but I do end up winning the next race ;)
Props for sending in your lowlights to learn and improve
I hope you sent him the win too, would love to see what you did right!
Your profile pic got me so hard lmaoooo I was brushing my phone like wtf is this hair.
What’s ur Strava ?
Congratulations!
Hahaha. When your brain is low on O2, and you see your teammate up the road in the break, your oxygen-starved neurotransmitters are saying “Friend. Up. Ahead. Needs. Help. Must. Join. Him.”
Lol
Jeff should sell a mug that says “don’t chase your teammates”
This is the "Watch Teammates Chase Teammates Show"
‘yeah, boom! sniped’ had me dead 😂 10:30
Your last video “crash at Alviso” highlights Timmy’s issue perfectly. When you were both in the breakaway his drafting made my legs ache. The rear view camera shows it really well. Loving your videos, cheers from Down Under.
This is one of those "I just felt too good" times and you end up doing everything wrong. Been there done that!
Thanks for sharing. Always so informative. I am an experienced crit racer just from watching your channel even though I have never raced before.
Let's play a game :
Take a shot every time a sworks evade helmet pops on the screen
Tanked at the start of the race.
Dude, how many of those riders DON'T have that same helmet? It's crazy, like 4 out of 5 riders are repping that helmet.
Best Aero helmet out there.
That's SF Bay. Most of the road bikes here are Specialized followed by Trek, Cannondale, and the rest are Italian bikes. Specialized and Santa Cruz also dominate the mountain bike scene here and I've only encountered 4 other Canyons
@@DcCock 100% which is why I went with Orbea... not to hate on the big local brands, but there are so many of them here in the Bay
Thanks Timmy!
A nice comment appeared! :)
Acutally there are situations in which you should chase your teammate! E.g. your (tt-)Teammate went solo and get catched by 3 sprinters. Sure, the team shouldn't let this 3 sprinters break out, but sometimes we make mistakes. Here it's the best to 1. chase your own (tt-)Teammate and 2. the (tt-)Teammate should immediately stop taking pulls (if the team can somehow communicate with him). Another situation: Your team wants a field sprint (cause they have an epic sprinter), but to reduce/dodge the big amount of work to hold the field togehter, they always set one teammate in every group, to save them from the responsibility of chasing back. In the end of the race it's, again, good to chase your teammate back.
Absolutely love these videos👍
Oh, I don't know. It's easy to look smart if you win. Timmie's sprint was pretty good -- he had to fire really early because he was so far back. It's not his fault that his team mate got caught -- he never even pulled the trigger. In a race with no stakes, you have to just go when the pack is breathing down your neck -- someone's going to wind it up just for the sake of training or safety. I don't know, maybe the break was knackered and couldn't go anymore, but it looked to me like they were just looking at each other when Timmy ran them down.
Timmy sprinted too early and lead out the competition for the win
@@NorCalCycling Sprinting 30 seconds out is too early, but you have to if you're that out of position. Really a no-win position. If winning is important to him, I would fault him more for 1) doing too much work earlier and 2) He needed to use a little more strength (or being more aggressive) on the final lap so that he hits the last 2 corners closer to the front. Of course, you were there and I've never been there, but my tendency in a training crit with riders of various levels is to go early so I can stay out of trouble -- if it's a tailwind or downhill I can hold most people off. 30 seconds out is a stretch though-- but should be enough for a placing.
"it's not his fault his teammate got caught" Timmy literally chased him down
Patience could have had roles reversed and he could have followed Jerome (though Jerome has more sense than to chase his teammate also) so you have to bank on someone else jumping early and slinging you by rather than slingshotting the best sprinter in the race to a free leadout. Yes- I don’t fault Timmy for this- after all, training races are for these lessons, but if he did the same thing again...I’d probably be much harsher :)
@@bryanlrsn7 Like I said, the fault was in his earlier actions. He lost Jerome's wheel and if he waited for someone to jump early, he'd be too far back to make any difference in the sprint. But the main "fault" lies in his partner in the break -- they were just looking at each other waiting to see who would go. Of course, it's easy to say if you're not on the limit. Theoretically, I guess you could fault him for not switching to the right and jumping up the gutter where Jerome would be picked, but a good sprinter knows that raw speed makes up for a lot of mistakes and sometimes you just have to take your shot.
Timmy *might* have had the legs at the end if he hadn't spent so much time a) eating wind, not in a draft; and b) chasing his teammates.
All of the above.
Dude, do a video where you synthesize the top 5 or 10 golden rules of bike racing. I can’t remember them, but off the top of my head, they’re: don’t attack into a headwind, always have a reason for being on the front, attack when it slows down, and there were a bunch of others that I can’t recall...and what’s that one that keeps coming up again and again?
This must be why I suck at racing...
Brian has 2 great ones.
Don't pull if you can attack.
Go solo 'cause YOLO.
At this point it is copyrighted "Never ever chase your teammates".......Jeff 😂🤣🤣 Hey man good job on the video. Merry Christmas 🌲⛄ dude.
Hey’ I just started riding road cycling and is interested in racing, how do I go about it? Are there any races in eastlake/SD?
I'm not racer, and if I were I'd be a road racer. I'm old and have no desire to break my neck racing crits. However, I love watching your vids because I like knowing strategies and concepts for the sport I most like watching. My question would be, do all these other racers actually watch your channel? Because if they do, they must have the sound turned off. You pretty much give them the keys to the kingdom if they have the legs and the lungs, but they just don't listen.
Jeff can you roast me at my job please.
Wow, he went all LeMond in 1982 on Zach. The unacknowledged Critical Sprinting Trait isn't max watts, it's patience....
Jerome is always there ;)
Дмитрий Потапов he’s actually not fast, but he definitely knows how to play his cards.
@@AshKetchhum He's 58 and an ex-national masters champ. He's pretty fast 😎
😂that team manager is ..😂
Question: Is chasing your teammate to lap the peloton a strategy?
Regarding chasing team mates, I've raced cat c in Australia and uk and even tho you are on from the same club, there isn't really a team.
You pay 30 to 40 dollars to enter a race, no one wants to ride around in the group because some person they ride with once a week in a group ride is off the front.
Just wondering if it is different in the states or is it more because its a higher cat. The fact its a team with people taking roles. Do you pay fees each race or is that covered in yearly subs.
What you are saying is true at the lower levels of racing here in the States, but as you get to Cats 1-2, you just can't get away with that here. Teams that work together and have more guys end up winning.
I haven't tried crit racing and want to but afraid of crashing especially in cat 5. All these videos I watch are people actually communicating? Like on your left, on your right, etc?
Ya had one job, Timmy.
Lol just joking, Timmy really does have the power. I can say for certain that you learn a new thing or two every race/ride.
Chase your teammate when he is vastly outgunned and you know he's gonna get dropped before the finish.
Pay attention and if he starts looking back at you waving his arm frantically, start chasing.
If you know with great certainty that the best your teammate is going to do is finish last in the sprint, you might as well chase. But you'd better get a better placing than last place in get breakaway.
Also, chase him if he never shares prize money.
Never. Chase. Teammates.
@@NorCalCycling Ha ha ha. Sometimes.
If your teammate is outgunned he should be sitting in the draft doing no work, prepared to counterattack, or not join the break to begin with. I guess chase him if you secretly hate him and want to sabatoge your team goals 🤷♂️.
@@NorCalCycling I just think that a blanket rule of never chasing a teammate is oversimplifying things. It’s a good general rule, but there are sometimes reasons to chase.
How long is one lap on this course?
Do they race your round?
2.5km per lap. I think they race most of the year but I'm not sure
What is the best body weight for racing? I’m 170lbs and can hit 900-1200watts frequently but if I lowered my Bodyweight would I be faster?
It depends on your body fat, I guess. If it's already very low, you shouldn't try to lose weight, otherwise you will lose power.
@@chrisko6439 my body fat is around 13-14% so I could probably lose a few percentages if I wanted to peak for a race but I’ve gone down to like 10% and I can sustain pretty good energy levels
If you want to get faster you need to get more aero, 1200w will win plenty of Pro level criteriums but not if you're a sail. Reducing your mass is always a benefit but the aero gain is ~22:1 (1 pound less aero drag = 22 pound less static mass) for speed.
@@SuperDaveKoesel 🙏🏼
Maybe he wants to catch up with his team to help in the breakaway, but looks like he was chasing him
Was this a cat 3 or cat 4 race?
Alviso is unsanctioned.
I think I’m somehow both an anchor and a leach 🤷🏻♂️
Team Angelo bikerdude here
Calling you Steve Martin.
Is it just me, or does everyone seem to have his saddle too high? Never noticed it before but it was really prevalent in this video for some reason.
I definitely saw several riders with their saddle too high. The back of the knee was snapping back on the down stroke. Definitely a bad sign and a waist of energy and economy
Is this considered an open or closed course? 10:08 no yellow line rule?
This is ther last time timmy sends his footage in :D
Because of constructive criticism to make me a better racer? Unlikely.
Zach would have been cought anyway. I thinbk just did that way to early.
This guy clearly doesn't watch enough NorCal videos lol
self note: don't chase teammates
Zack would of won that sprint if timmy didn't do that. also timmy is a small rider so he is possibly scared to ride aggressive against the bigger riders reason he losses significant wheels (draft).
Zack's group was going too slow (27mph) to make it to the finish, even without the early jump from timmy the chasing group would have consumed the lead 3.
I was more annoyed with the gloves than the terrible strategy to be honest
Jerome always there hhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 SJBC members dislike this video,
i used to bridge to my teammates just to be able to help them in the break but i would make sure no one could follow and we would win at eldorado park in so-cal, just depends on the situation i think.
Sprint from 360m with sprinters literally, on your wheel. Has a human other than MVDP ever won from that far out against good competition? I'd say, unless it was a MEGA tailwind or you were simply not racing strong competition, that long a sprint has never worked in the history of the known universe...
There were 2 national champs and a few state champs in that field. Timmie almost pulled it off. Just miss timed it by 50 meters.
Shaun should have footage somewhere on his channel. It almost worked in the moment. Despite bad practice . You just don’t see it from my perspective .
Last time I was this early my gf... Actually forget that I have no gf lmao
Why is everybody wearing Castelli bibs? Haven't people heard of Assos or Rapha?
I think he still a great job, of doing things wrong
I actually thought his sprint was well timed... he just wasn't pulling enough watts in the end to win the race... 600 watts ain't going to do it....
He launch with 350m remaining and sprinted for 33 seconds how could you expect him to put out a1000watts for the last 100m, it's just not possible for him. he should have waited for the second surge of that group that he was in to catch the break and launch off that surge.
It was a double sprint starting from 1000w at the turn and fading at the end . Managed to use the draft from the break and emptied out what I had left
1:13 woah, profanity
Anyone here have an old road bike that hardly or doesn't use anymore? I would like everyone to know that I'm open for donations hehe. I always want to start road biking as a hobby and enjoy life as long as I'm still young... Btw I'm from Philippines and I'm 18 years old.
BTW in a break,if our non-sprinter is with other 5 sprinter and our sprinter is left behind in pelaton, chasing that group makes sense. And then sprinter counters🤔
Anyone in my team doing shit like that would be thrown out immediately
Never chase your teammates? Bad, bad, BAD advice. Of COURSE there are situations when chasing a group that contains your teammate(s) makes tactical sense.
if you find yourself chasing teammates, either you, your teammates, or both have done something wrong.
@@NorCalCycling incorrect.
Do you race for sjbc? 😂
@@NorCalCycling a few years ago at the cat 3 la circuit race, our club had a situation where one of our members was in a break (of maybe about 5 guys). A fellow club member/teammate chased/bridged with one other non-teammate. The club member who crossed to the break, was a fairly new member - he started the year as a cat 5 -- so some of the club members who were watching weren't happy with his move; they echoed your blanket statement: "never chase your teammate."
A few laps later, the club member who got "chased down" ended up dropping from the break -- I'm not sure why, but I think he just didn't have the fitness.
The club member, who bridged to the break - taking another rider with him - ended up finding 2nd or 3rd. Given the venue, the size and depth of the field, a podium cat 3 finish for the club was a pretty damn good result. However, there were those club members who didn't think much of his tactics nor were they impressed with his placing. Imo, the guy being a new club member played into the uneasy feeling among some of those unhappy with his tactics.
I've seen pro races where teammates have chased their teammates. When asked about it, the pros said they chased to "manage the gap." That is, they didn't want the break to get an insurmountable gap in case their teammate in the break had a flat or a mechanical.
Granted, I'm not nor have I ever been a pro, but I doubt they felt they did something wrong.
@@NorCalCycling OMGNOWAY that was funny af!🤣🤣🤣
First
Team cycling destroys the integrity of bicycle racing.