The Subtle Bodies of Angels
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- Many of the Church Fathers talk about the notion that angels have what we call "subtle bodies", that angels are not completely incorporeal (God only is completely incorporeal) but their bodies are also not circumscribed in flesh, but in mind.
In this formerly patron video, I explain what the Church means with this description of angels and how it's something we can relate to in the general human experience.
The discussion with Rafe Kelley I mention near the end: • Bridging the Symbolic ...
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Timestamps:
0:00 // Introduction
0:43 // Intro music
1:08 // What are subtle bodies?
2:13 // St. John Damacene
6:32 // Perelandra by C.S. Lewis
9:19 // Our subtle bodies and the hierarchy of angels
14:06 // True analogies
15:23 // Jesus prayer
18:13 // Continue: True analogies
20:17 // Examples
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
In my experience, the chief problem modern people have understanding a subtle body is not the word subtle, but the word body. To us, a body is so fundamentally and innately physical, that no matter how much you explain what subtle means, we just can't relate it back to a body per se. It leads us into confusion because we are blind to the fact that we are conceptualizing a body wrong in the first place.
To understand the subtlety of angelic bodies, or even of our own bodies, we must break our modern view that a body is a material thing. The most helpful way to do this, at least for me, was one I heard originally on the Lord of Spirits podcast. They defined a body as a nexus of powers.
Once you think of a body as a nexus of powers, everything in this discussion starts falling into place.
I heard the same podcast. I 100% agree with you. The idea of “nexus” tends to free up our preconceptions … it makes the meta in metaphysics more graspable in my view.
Strange, I understood it fairly easily despite my modernist upbringing. Though, I am a avid gamer and engage in a lot of fantasy rpg type games, which probably primed me for a lot of this thinking. Powers that exert influence on reality beyond the confines of a singular individual physical body is self-evident to me, or people becoming "hosts" for certain powers/entities to exert their influence.
I think I'm starting to get it. I like to compare different types of animals and how their bodies are different to get at how body can be a more general idea. A bacteria has a body composed of several macromolecules organized together to function. A small animal has a body composed of many tissues which are composed of cells that are structured differently from those of bacteria. Siphonophores are colonial creatures with bodies composed of many organized individual animals that cannot function apart from each other and so they're attached to each other. Ant, termite, or bee colonies have bodies composed of many organized individual animals which cannot function well apart from each other, and they must maintain communication as they're organized to serve the queen and cannot live apart from the colony. All of these bodies require organizing principles and information(DNA, nervous systems, pheromones, other communication) or else they die and fall apart. Angels have the organizing principle with intelligence and information, but without the kind of physical aspect to their bodies that these previous examples have.
I’m walking around my neighborhood, long time listener to Pageau, totally vibing with what he’s saying about angels and how we can sometimes see them or analogies in the world and….BOOM a Navy F18 Blue ANGEL screams over my head! I had forgotten they were doing an airshow today in my city! I had a good chuckle.
I think it’s important to remember in these discussions that seeing angels or seeing the face of god is not something to be sought after but rather a kind of bedrock of reality that is not found without hitting every other rock bottom possible beforehand. *generally speaking*
Remember that rock bottom can be made into the surface of the earth.
Conceptual frameworks can zoom in and out isolate. It can include and exclude. We are aware of the things we are doing because we ignore the things we are not "doing". This is all to simply be able to point in the direction of an intuition. Now add the fact that we forgot why language was made as a tool. And the fact that we are conceptually told that we are nowhere, in the middle of the future and the past, lost and wanting.
I am not lost, I am not wanting for I am here with Him and I have everything I would need or want.
Haha yea, the most clarity I’ve ever had, and in some sense “the closest I’ve felt to God” is when I was absolutely screwed up in several different ways and at my lowest. I wish it didn’t have to be that way, I wish I could feel that spiritual sense and closeness to God when I’m actually doing decent for myself
Subtle body: a body that can only be observed by its effects rather than directly. For example light: you don't see light as itself, rather you see things illuminated. Same with fire as an even better example. Fire is clearly there and well defined, but it's ungraspable, you can't grab a piece and say I am holding fire. But you see the dancing light and heat and know fire. That's a subtle body, you can't see it, but it is very concretely there known by its effects.
Very well said 👏
I believe this to be a really good description of God as well. I cannot see Him, but it is BY Him that I'm able to see. He is not the object of observation, but the very lense through which we observe.
He's truly so close that we can't grasp Him.
Divine energies
That is the Hebraic definition of spirit: Ruach. Which means wind. Another example.
Does this mean fire and light are angles?
@jacob6088 no, a subtle body is a description, not a category. Fire is more subtle than earth, angels are more subtle than man, the upper ranks of angels are more subtle than the lower ranks, and God is most subtle, being omnipresent in effect yet wholly contained nowhere in creation
The awareness of our own subtle bodies and how they interact with the world does bring a lot of clarity to the understanding of how angelic subtle bodies work. They are a holy influence without a physical body.
Exactly, but unfortunately this intimate awareness is generally avoided because of secular and religious prejudices. We want to speculate about the subtle bodies of Angels from a distance, so to speak, rather than experience how the Angels live within and inspire our own subtle bodies.
Smell good
@@ashvinpandurangi9541Well said.
incredible way of expressing these ideas, connected a lot of things in my mind. patterns, awareness, insight, inspiration, intuition, meditation, breath, and influence. thank you
My non Orthodox friend went to the airport in Alaska. When he got there, several Orthodox monks were there and told him not to get on the plane, that he would die if he did. The plane ended up crashing. (No one was killed). The monks saved his life. This happened twice. His whole family ended up becoming Orthodox. And people say Angels and the Holy Spirit do not exist.
Maybe I misunderstood something...how did they save his life if nobody died anyways?
@@TheJustDoomand... it happened twice. Those Alaskan Orthodox monks are something else. Maybe they should be airplane mechanics 🤷♂️
The planes crashed, twice. If he had been on the plane, he would have died.@@TheJustDoom
Your friend happened to be near Orthodox monks before two separate crashes when there's less than 100 plane crashes a year? Not calling a bluff, just pointing out the odds
Isn't that divination?
I love the description in the beginning of Perelandra, when Lewis is at Ramson's office and sees the angel of Mars. It ends up being a material description - a vertical beam of light - but Lewis is also very astute in pointing out the effects on the mind (akin to spiritual), that the encounter had. He notes how he could not describe it's color after the event, and conjures a very beautiful image about the angel's "perfect verticality", that makes the vertical axis of the room, and of the whole earth seem slanted in comparison.
*"What one actually felt at the moment was that the column of light was vertical but the floor was not horizontal--the whole room seemed to have heeled over as if it were on board ship. The impression, however produced, was that this creature had reference to some horizontal, to some whole system of directions, based outside the Earth, and that its mere presence imposed that alien system on me and abolished the terrestrial horizontal."*
I have to read the Space Trilogy
Great books
Our society desperately needs more of this - a better understanding of ancient cosmology, angelogy and how that can be reconciled with the modern mind and worldview.
🤺☦🇷🇺Its merely a heretic Gnostic understanding brother, so don't be deceived by those Trojan horses...,Your Jonathan simply doesn't understand the Church Fathers, and he misinterprets what they say. No, they had total agreement about the essence of angels, which is bound by oral Tradition, so what is he even talking about...? To say otherwise is heresy. Let me educate you:
Angels have subtle bodies - creaed from light (as opposed to ours from earth), and that is why they can be in all heavenly spheres by the will of God who sanctified them as well to be in his presence, but other than that, their nature is LOWER than on man. They have no personhood (weren't created in the image of God), no morals other than God's commands (no knowledge of good and evil as man who ate from the tree), have subtle firey forms which are different depends on their rank, which is a hybrid of human and animal forms (as taught to us by the holy Tertullianus), hence their knowledge (other than that which is given to them specifically by God in order to be messengers to humans - angel means messenger and is not necessarily the angelic beings you refer to) is an instinctive animal-like knowledge, and not the transcendent one like with us, since in our souls we are endowed with the spark of the divine essence, by the breath of the Father in the Holy Spirit, and that is why Angels behave like little children and animals with immoral instinctive passions, and thus some are able to sin and fall like the fallen angels by ACCIDENT not consciously, as Satan the Cheruv did by being consumed with jealousy towards Man, because he was made (despite having a lesser material body) on a higher level of existence than Angels, and wanted his place, and so he gathered weak susceptible Archangels deceived them into sin by seducing them with the daughters of Man, and so by their instinctive animal passions of theirs, they fell into sin by accident, and once they did, there was no turning back, no door to repentance, as with men, since Angels, not created in the image of God, have no absolute free will, only animal wills which come from their nature, as opposed to man, which has a divine free will, and with it the ability to CREATE, so once they sin, their souls are contaminated forever. In short, the difference between Angels and Men is their bodies+form & (lack of) personhood.
Subtle bodies sounds like the manifestation of the power of the angels into our perception. Also I love when your videos go super deep and metaphysical, because it is closer to understanding the true nature of reality itself, and it is much more interesting.
This actually happens everyday, for example when people talk about the news or about psychological phenomena like narcissism. Without the spiritual discernment it's clear why some people would have one interpretation of an event or a type of behaviour. The issue is that it's not perfect in imperfect beings who haven't purified their minds to actually see reality clearly, so we stay within our own delusional interpretations for a lack of discernment.
His explanation of Hesychasm is awesome.
I think the Inklings had the view that angels (ideas) have subtle bodies but also can materialize themselves in physical bodies to interact with material creation. You can see this idea in the book The Place of the Lion by Charles Williams, and this book had a huge influence on Lewis and Tolkien.
Throughout the Bible, angels show up & talk or at least communicate, move boulders aside, mingle w/towns people … all sorts of things!
@@IAmALawyerToo yes.. I tend to agree with the Inklings. I think they're also able to manifest in the physical world, not only in the subtle (mind) layer.
What an excellent novel.
Yes but their manifestation may not be quantifiable / physically tangible
I got the gist of what Jonathon was saying to be exactly that. That subtle bodies do make themselves manifest in the physical world by influencing (maybe not the best word) actual, physical human bodies, and those human bodies acting out the subtle bodies influence. One of Jonathons examples being a certain idea that takes hold of a human and that human acting out that idea.
I think that Rupert Sheldrake's Theory of Morphic Resonance is very useful for understanding subtle bodies.
There seems to be alot of overlap between subtle bodies and what Sheldrake calls morphogenetic fields (behavioral and mental fields in particular)
They are like structures of animacy. Not exactly pure platonic forms, but not as concretized as physical bodies either.
There is also a channel called Jung to Live By whose psychologists adopt his ideas
Been waiting for this for years
I hereby sentence Jonathan Pageau to say "incorporeal" 10 times fast.
13:37 An example of a subtle body: When a building is built, we will say "Person X built this building," even though the specific person named may have not lain a single brick of the building. For example, if I Google "builder of the Great Wall of China," the name of Emperor Qin Shi Huang comes up. Even though he certainly did not physically build the structure, we intuitively understand even through our materialist frame that it is appropriate to say that he built the wall, as he is obviously the force dictating the construction.
Brilliant!
First, body means that creature has borders. Actually creatures can not exists without borders, so angels have bodies which most of the time we can not see.
Second, there is no influence on distant for creatures, for example demon who is now in Australia have no direct influence on me (but I have my demon as I have my guardian angel).
If Australian demon wants to directly influence on me, he should travel to me, and he as creature has no limitless velocity, he can not immediately arrive to my home.
So, angels are real creatures-persons, with bodies and all properties which creatures have in difference to omnipotent and omnipresent God.
Stop making angels as non beings similar to ideas, patterns, forms, virtues who are not beings, who are not creatures.
First of all I am a former practitioner of the Prayer of the Heart and I practiced this prayer until the moment that identity in me that prayed non-stop, because the prayer would start by itself in the morning when I woke up and sometimes I would catch my mind in my sleep praying on inhalation and exhalation, that identity simply hid in an inner space that I became aware of because of this prayer.
Things didn't end there, because I turned from a seeker to a discoverer.
But regarding subtle bodies I think the best analogy is that of emotions. A child experiences emotions but he becomes aware of their existence as he experiences them and as he is helped to identify them and the more a child is allowed access to a diverse palette of experiences the more granular his emotions become and he becomes more able to be aware of even the most subtle emotions.
Thank you!
Why former practitioner? Isn't it a lifelong practice?
@@leondbleondb No, it's not!
You don't stay on the train once you've reached your destination.
Religion and religious practice is a solution to the problem of man's fall into sin, it is a consequence of the emptiness we have acquired in our being, but once the relationship with the divine is established, when man can no longer act against his own conscience, when the emptiness is filled by the rightful owner, things change, your mind is infused with a different logic than the usual one.
So you’re already God. Thanks for blessing us lower beings with your presence.
@@lilnapkin462 Forgive me if I created this impression. I am not a native English speaker and cultural differences can be deceiving. Nevertheless, one can aspire to deification and it is not something to be ashamed of, on the contrary, but the path to deification cannot be without humility nor full of vain glory, because sanctification does not mean that we replace God but one realizes his consubstantiality with God, by the grace of the Holy Spirit and the Son.
Again, forgive me, please!
@@florindragosminculescu I don't know what you meant in your language, but you do not get to "graduate" from the Jesus prayer. To think otherwise is to fall victim to the demon of Pride.
Hey Jon, that last part were you talked about the people seeing thier goddess really resonated with me. An example in my life would be when a fight was going to brake out around me. I could feel those subtle changes and know when you had to get out of dodge. The way I talked about it in the past was to call it energy or energies but when I heard you and Jordan talk about gods I knew that was the energies I was feeling. A place I feel it very commonly would be at concerts. It is a concept that is hard to articulate but you do it in a way that I can understand.
Literally half way through I thought "Oh I 100% feel this at concerts" and then you said it.
As a musician Ive thought a lot about this, could I still tell while blindfolded and not knowing who I was seeing? And I think I could.
I used to play and go to loads of shows and the senses I got were entirely unrelated to what I thought of the band, or whether I knew of them or not.
There's differences for sure but I mostly engaged with "christian" concerts which have this weird aloofness and emptiness. While my favorite secular bands felt like worshipping our own fleshly demise😂 the atmosphere is soooo thick
@@QuixEndIs it still possible to enjoy concerts?
@@sasukeCS7 yeah but I used to play a lot so it's familiar territory. Most of what I took part in was fairly benign, bethel or someone like switchfoot 😂 definitely still love concerts but the atmosphere is always thick
@@QuixEnd I see. I love EDM (like I listen to it everyday) and love light shows so EDM concerts are fun, but there’s a lot of sin around and have always felt that thick atmosphere you describe.
🤺☦🇷🇺Your Jonathan simply doesn't understand the Church Fathers, and he misinterprets what they say. No, they had total agreement about the essence of angels, which is bound by oral Tradition, so what is he even talking about...? To say otherwise is heresy. Let me educate you:
1. God's Angels are incorporeal. The only difference between them and God, is that they aren't made of matter, BUT they do have forms.
2. Only the fallen angels were half incorporeal half matter, since sin cannot exist in an absolute incorporeal being with no material body
I had a traumatic experience once. When I regained consciousness 2 of my friends were administiring to me. I had a profound recognition that these 2 friends were also spiritual beings far greater than a human. When they spoke to me it was like my frinds were speaking but there was a more profound layer added to their speach that was coming from higher spirtual beings. Upon later reflection I came to the conclusion that these spiritual beings were guardian angels that were putting back together after I busted myself up. I think angels are interceding in our lives all the time like this but we are not aware of it because, at a material level, angels appear mundane.
I had a very similar experience to this. To this day I'm not sure what really happened
@@Xanaseb Sometimes I think we are not intended to be aware of this stuff. It's like being a passenger on a plane. We don't need to know how the plane works. We might freak out if we knew all the details. It's the pilot's job to take care of the details
I had the same experience when I took a dose of shrooms with friends a few years ago. It was very confusing and disconcerting. I thought I had died and was in “heaven” or some kind of afterlife revealing the deepest layers of existence and how Love is the fabric of the universe.
@@sasukeCS7u prolly weren’t wrong about love being the fundamental fabric of the universe haha
Sometimes God answers my prayers through your videos Johnathan, this is one of them. This answers so many questions, especially the notion of "making your heart a throne for Christ" which I've been pondering recently.
Thank you so, so much and God Bless.
Incredible insights. Thank you.
Love and blessings.
Thanks for trying to explain this. Unfortunately, I was unable to grasp any concept in this video. I keep my fingers crossed that I will someday tho.
Best wishes!
I pray you never lose that drive for curiosity and instinct for knowledge. Your humility on the matter and self honesty has my deep respect. Too many people, probably most, will simply string a bunch of words together in a grand show about how great their understanding is, when in fact they don't at all, and just wont admit it. To themselves or others.
Always remember:
According to Plato, the first step to wisdom is knowing that you don't know.
I suspect in your case it is that D doesn't make any sense until you have learned A, experienced B, totally messed up C and completely forgotten E. Have patience, I am almost 50 and just when I think I have figured something out out, I see another aspect of it and I am right back at the beginning. But it is a fantastically fun ride, I tell you what.
You are what you think, because by thinking thoughts you manifest them into existence.
It all makes perfect sense. I undertake the limitations and understanding you have about misunderstandings and confusions. I think it is very simple to understand in the way you are explaining it here. Your brother's book helped a lot in building measuring tools for subtle bodies while being firmly in a physical phenomenon.
Delightful! While at the same time utterly over my head🤣There is something winsome about your absent-minded professor vibe, thank you/bless you🕊
The mention of wind and fire kind of reminds of Uncle Iroh's words regarding the nature of each element and the major strengths of each nation. Fire is the element of drive and ambition while wind is freedom due to its connection with the realm above.
This made me realize something based on what Matthieau shares in his book. Wind is of heaven and fire is connected to space. Fire has a lot to do with imposing will - clearing nature, making spaces hospitable, and forging or powering technology. It's also a source of light, so not unconnected to heaven.
@JoaoMarceloValencaBraga I'm familiar with the temperaments somewhat but not of their association to the elements. I think you are on the right track. I've wondered about the diagonal associations (eg. space to land and space to sky). Space is made of material but ascends to the heavens (Babel, fire to smoke). Water is both above and below the earth. So I think they can be associated with either (mud and cloud on the water side, dark matter underneath and purposefully elevated matter on the "fire" or space side). There is probably an association between melancholic and phlegmatic, for example. I don't know what it would be, but possibly having to do mystery vs clarity on the other diagonal?
so if you are following/behaving in line enough with a particular pattern that can lead to a manifestation of seeing such an agency related to this very pattern? This is mind blowing!
This makes me think of Plato and when he was trying to get across the idea of courage. What is courage? Where can it be found? The Angel of courage would be just as difficult to 'pin' down. I say pin, because in Jonathan's video on David the King attempts to lance David to the wall, or to 'pin' him to the wall in an effort to identify him. So in a way, the mystery or paradox of a subtle body must be like that. Any effort to identify or 'pin' it down would inevitably kill it, but in that case all you have done is identify it in that one unique moment and then it is gone, forever to remain a mystery as it should. I find it fascinating that quatum physics as we understand it behaves in exactly the same way.
Agreed, Pattern is the best way to grasp how subtle bodies manifest. They're tantamount to Jung's archetypes, and he said much the same in regards certain archetypes acting upon, or being contained within, other archetypes.
Interesting. What leapt out to me was the description of the higher/highest angels acting through other angels, being patterns of patterns, so to speak. I was immediately reminded of the Mother of God, who is higher than the cherubim and more exalted than the seraphim. Does this mean that the Mother of God is the highest of all the "patterns" and also has the most all-encompassing subtle body? Even as I write that, I am reminded of another hymn that declares that her body became a throne and her womb became "more spacious than the heavens", implying that her (subtle) body contains all of the heavens, and thus all the other subtle bodies and patterns? I might be completely heretical here, I'm just writing down my associations as I'm trying to grasp this subject.
I really like your line of thought here! I also do not know just how heretical it is, lol. But itbis also that Mary was the vessel through which God entered the world. It only stands to reason that her subtle body must have such a reach or must encompass a vast amount of the patterns of our world. Even though I can't quite explain why, it intuitively makes a lot of sense what you bring up.
Angels as patterns?
Patterns are not living beings.
Ideas, symbols, virtues, patterns ... are not living beings, they are neither creatures, and of course they are not God, even they are in God's mind.
You can't communicate with them, but you guys are pretending you can.
But you can communicate with God and angels.
It is big difference and you ignore it trying to live in some non-existent platonian world-space of ideas, symbols, virtues, patterns ...
@@emilbrusic6032I do see your point. How can patterns or ideas constitute a being or be alive? That certainly stretches the minds ability to comprehend to its limits. And there is likely a danger to creating some esoteric zoology of otherworldly beings out of 'nothing', many have already done that. I think what 'us guys' are clearly struggling with, and rather whimsically exploring, is being able to use words to describe something that exists outside of time and space. Pattern doesn't quite cut it, neither does spirit or form. But I don't think it really is possible for us to be able to fully comprehend a being that lives outside time and space. But we might be able to catch glimpse of it, through patterns or symbols or ideas. Much in the same way astronomers study black holes by indirectly observing their 'effects' on our universe.
I am absolutely effected in my life by ideas and patterns and symbols. These being the ghostly fingerprints of angels and demons makes perfect intuitive sense to me. It is just a matter of never understanding them in their whole. I can communicate with my anger when it comes upon me, but will I ever be able to wrap my mind around and fully understand an 'angel containing the pattern of righteous fury', I doubt it. But my feeble attempts at understanding God's gifts any way I can is nourishing to my soul in a way.
@@caseyhart4406
Thanks for reply.
I was writing that many people have wrong ideas about space, probably reason is so called 'scientific' einsteinian notion about space-time with unnatural 'dogma' - time is dimension (and so many deluded scientists think they can travel to past or future times because 'time is dimension'), and there are more than 3 dimensions (actually they are talking about 4) in space. And then simple people think there are some dimensions where angels & souls live, even dimensions where 'ideas, forms, patterns, symbols live.
No, last mentioned are not even beings, and there is no space besides Heavens & Earth, and they, Heavens and Earth, are as well creatures with borders, with 3 dimensions.
How can I be sure?
Because our Lord Jesus Christ has ressurected three dimensional human body and He is in Heaven (what st.Paul called third Heaven).
As most of us can not see angels, we can not see third Heaven, but it is real three dimensional space.
We can not see soul when it leaves body, we can not see souls when they travel up through second Heaven to third, we can not see angels and demons in the toll houses (in second Heaven where lives demons of air thrown outside third Heaven after rebellion), but they are real and for us they are invisible in 3D space.
All creatures are visible or unvisible, but all have limits-borders (because only God is limitless), and all exists in limited-with borders 3D creatures i.e. Heavens & Earth.
Angels for example, as creatures don't have unlimited velocity, they can not immediately ascend or descend from Heaven to Earth.
All outside Heavens and Earth is non-existent, false SF world, which is just someone false imagination in his deluded prelest mind.
Jonathan Pageaue has one video in which he claimed that 'santa klaus' and 'tooth fairy' real exists.
John Lennon also had imagination there is no God and Heavens.
Imagination is just imagination by which demons could control us, but it is not reality and real three dimensional limited world.
Perhapse someone thinks - I don't want to live in closed world, so there is some world above this closed Heavens & Earth world and which is without borders.
That soul is then on the road to the Hell because of her prelest and 'innocent imagination'.
That souls thinks - I can create more perfect world than God.
But God can not create absurdity and contradictions, God can not create uncreated beings, God can not create space which does not have borders.
@@caseyhart4406
Symbols are just signs which fingers to someone who is not present right now with us, or is invisible for us.
It is just that, we should look for real person whom symbols sign, not think that symbol is real person, or be completely satisfied with symbol.
Thank you Jonathan for talking about this!
Some are ready and need others to talk about this. I was thinking for a while about the things you are talking about in this video - It reaffirmed what I try to communicate to my secular loved ones when I get into a position where I kind of have to justify me spending time with and respecting the experiences of some close friends from various denominations/traditions that experience/interprete events more as lead by entities/persons...more "story-like". I find it sad when secular people dismiss religious views without recognizing the underlying truth and also when religious people react hateful towards other religious groups/denominations and secular people.
Great video, thank you so much for making that more clear, keep up the great work!
Only 200k subs is a good representation of the state of the world's consciousness or, it's proof of Shadow Banning or both ❤️ This is truly one of my favorite channels, I can listen to you talk for hours. It shows, it's blindingly apparent you speak in Truth as you Know it from your heart. I tell my son to speak like a river from above flowing out of your mouth, rather than a trickle from a stream that maneuvers around rocks. Getting over the rocks or removing them is a worthy endeavor. It just came out of my mouth while talking to him as a kid one day. Where it came from idk but, I have my suspicions❤
I have not watched THAT much of your stuff, but this did strike me as going further than ever before. Amazing. I will be talking to my pastor about this video and hopefully watching it with him. I liked hearing a bit about the Jesus Prayer, and would also like to hear more about the meaning of the words, from you. Thank you for your videos, and for helping to switch our perspectives in such a way that we can better see the truth in Scripture and life.
Thank you! I appreciate your explanations of the mysteries of the faith.
"The kingdom of God is spread throughout the earth, yet men do not see it."
Blessings of love and grace to all.
i so appreciate this perspective! what if we only call them "subtle bodies" because our senses are not trained to discern them well? could they be the more durable bodies? they must assist in awakening us to our own dimension since we were created "a little lower than the angels".
My brain is hurting.
That answered my question, it only took 4 years. Thank you
Thank you so much!! This is amazing. Have definitely felt this before and hope to feel it more in the future!
Beautifully explained. Certainly helped to clarify some of my own experiences in a more "tangible" manner...
If Spring offered a St Christopher hoodie, I would definitely buy one!
Thank you for sharing this🙏
Very well explained. Thank you.
Thank you Jonathan for venturing into this territory.
Push it further. Great one this!
"The farthest I've taken you guys" -- More! More!
The strongest subtle body is the body of Christ. I’ve escaped war and lived through how fast a subtle body of death replaces every angelic blessing we have, beyond fire and wind - including electricity, water, food, internet. Mr. Pageau thank you for generously sharing your knowledge and time. Your video helped me immensely keep a steady mind and properly oriented through all this.
This was awesome! Great explanation! Thank you!
I'm reminded of the Basketball Awareness Test and how our awareness of the embodied material world is so limited, we must be missing so much more when it comes to subtle bodies.
This so reminds me of Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker series. The ultimate torture device where a person is placed into a machine from which they are able to precieve the actual infinite vastness of space, then popped up a 'you are here' arrow. The person, no matter how tough, instantly went insane.
Speaking of Perelandra, I would love to see a Pageau analysis of C.S. Lewis’s Space Trilogy.
Thanks for the lecture. The early church fathers had a deep understanding of wisdom. It makes me wonder why so few Christians today have a foundation of understanding of these matters.
They don’t have the church fathers.
Would love to hear a deep dive on a specific angelic appearance through this lens. E.g. what did it mean for Christ to be ministered by the angels, or for Gabriel to visit Mary?
I absolutely love your videos. Congratulations on a job well done on Exodus.
Makes perfect sense, no problem at all
Isn’t that “spirit”? The Holy Spirit is that…isn’t it?
Action….the action of the invisible spirit? What moves us…?
There is a hierarchy of angels. We must have amazing invisible beings helping us!
This is so deep and so amazing and so above our own brain power, but on some level it might make us feel more comfortable having all of that help from the divine spirits because don’t they all emanate from the Holy Spirit anyway?
No, they are themselves only the vessels into which this or that ray of radiance of the Holy Spirit is poured, and therefore they are called describable and intelligible. The Holy Spirit is God and is incomprehensible completely in His hyper-essential superiority.
This is why we do not wrestle with flesh and blood but principalities. Sometimes we are conscious of these subtle bodies and sometimes we are not. Attention brings greater awareness to the layers above and to the layers that are below. The Jesus prayer is of immeasurable significance.
On Angels being made of "wind" and "fire":
The power of Earth in man will be that which forces on him, via the physical body, the materialistic vision of the world. From this there follows a fundamental point: the ordinary man does not know the other three Elements-Air, Water, and Fire-as they actually are in themselves-the common man knows only the ability to perceive what these Elements undergo when they manifest through the Earth element-that is to say, as they are translated in the processes of the corporeal perception. Water, Air, and Fire, as everyone knows them (that is, as states of physical matter), are no more than correspondences-so to speak-tangibly symbolic of the true elements called '’living" by the hermetic masters. In themselves, they are other existential states, other modalities of consciousness, quite separate from the body, that can transpose all the principles of things according to their noncorporeal nature, just as in the corporeal existence, in the terrestrial body, all principles are analogously transposed and known by their manifestations in the Earth element.
Morphic fields. I’d love for you to talk with Rupert Sheldrake. He has a great book “The Physics of Angels”
Yes!
I think I understand what you're saying, but I also think, given our fallen nature and how much the occult has saturated the West, this way of thinking, to one who does not have the Holy Spirit, can be harmful. Those who discover the reality of the unseen, without Christ, I think, are worse off than the atheist. Because we are composite beings created in the image of God (body/soul/spirit), we actually, though lower than the angels, reflect a higher aspect of reality than they do; but our fallen nature injures this ability. Once our nature is fully repaired (in our glorified bodies) we will actually have participated in and continue to participate in a level of communion with God that not even the angels do. We were created to be inseparable from Him, forever.
Loved this!
I love that series!!!!
Jonathan! Have you read C.S. Lewis's greatest literary piece (in my opinion) - "Till We Have Faces: A Myth Retold"?
That is an AMAZING book! I have read it at least twice, maybe more.
@@elusivemayfly7534, indeed. And much more subtle than say, his Cosmic Trilogy. I think Jonathan must like it.
Perhaps a helpful understanding is that an angel is a lot like how we may be oriented in objective thought in our head to a certain thing or concept, but that they are that more totally to the entire thing, which is also outside of the head, and they may be present and involved in all of the ways that that relates to anything. What extents they may take is reigned in by what God ordains them.
IT MAKES SENSE FIRE WE CAN SEE IT AND FEEL ITS EFFECTS BUT CANT GRASP IT
I'm Agnostic, male near 50, high iq, would loooooove to be able tobelieve in anything, HELP
Suggestion:
Read the book of John in the Gospels.
As you read it think that it is a letter from God to you.
Talking with other believers that know and understand the love of God would be pretty good too.
And ask Jesus to make himself real to you.
You are being drawn by God : )
Read Rene Guenon, particularly The Reign Of Quantity and The Signs Of The Times. It'll completely shatter your materialist worldview, more so than Pageau ever could.
Moderns have trained themselves not to think CONSCIOUSLY in terms of Final and Formal Causes, but only of Efficient and Material Causes. Cognitively, this produces interference, preventing us from understanding. I have had to work SO HARD, as a dude is his 60's, to relearn how to read the Bible for cosmic patterns.
How often do you get accused of dabbling in the demonic stuff by misguided religious people who think you are talking about occultism?
Besides, amazing video. Nice to see someone finally giving this topic a fair shake instead of demonizing it, or talking about it in terms of "some eastern woo woo". We have more to learn from ancient philosophies than we know.
The miracle of Archangel Michael at Colossae points to the "subtle bodies" of angels as being more akin to the fourth state of matter, plasma, than to subtly-formed Ideas and their more complex forms, communications. Angels communicate, so they contain Ideas and deliver messages, but they themselves are more gross than what they deliver from God.
Just finished reading a homily from St. Isaac the Syrian regarding this topic of Principalities, Power and Authority. ❤☦🇬🇷🇨🇦
What is Isaac saying about these subtle bodies?
The plant medicines if used properly in the right context are our friends that always open us up to perceiving these subtle beings. My favorite metaphor is the radio. If you break or smash the radio it does not effect the signal. The radio waves are all around us even if the radio is damaged. For us humans water is the antenna that picks up the signal of our souls. When we die we return to dust. I think the most important practice in any situation of perceiving subtle bodies is formless meditation. It is good to be able to endure being completely free and open without direction or holding on to anything. That way as things arise we can be unmoved. That is the only way to see and hold your seat. We begin to identify ourselves as the signal and less as the body. But, we have to have physical discipline to do any of this in the first place. Angels, Gods, spirits, and animals can not meditate. This is why it is so precious to be given a human birth. May all beings obtain omniscience.
Matthew 13:18-23 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
If a subtle body affects the world through meaning, and meaning is communicated intelligence to intelligence, how can a subtle body affect a physical object directly as we know angels and demons can
🤺☦🇷🇺Because God's Angels aren't subtle bodies, that's the whole point! Your Jonathan is a Gnostic not and Orthodox!
Do you have a video that explains the symbolism of your cosmic mountain or can you tell me what ni ka means on both sides of the tree of life
Wind and fire could refer to spirit/mind & energy. When Elijah called fire down from the sky its know in the tradition that that was lightning. So my idea is maybe the angels are a type of energy being. The Lakota people have a term called thunder being. And im wondering how much the concept of astral consciousness would apply to this.
When i hear this stuff im trying to think of it with modern eyes but still trying to keep myself grounded in the orthodox fronima
this is so frickin cool!
The way you talk about angels makes me think of Platonic Forms. Things which ARE, and maybe even are more real or fundamental than fluid matter, but are not matter. A concept IS, even if it is not matter. An event IS. An idea IS. But they are not matter, even though they affect matter.
"One reproach among others is often levelled at our Spiritual Science by theologians and others who believe - though they do not comprehend it - that they are standing on the true ground of Christianity. This Spiritual Science, they say, alleges truths concerning a whole number of Hierarchies, with Beings existing in the spiritual World, higher than man. For, as you know, we do speak of the spiritual Hierarchies, including the Angels, Archangels, Archai, Exusiai and so on. We speak of these kingdoms of the super-sensible Worlds just as we speak of the animal kingdom, the plant kingdom, the mineral kingdom, the elemental kingdom, and so on, in the earthly world. We know that the life of man falls into two halves. One of them takes its course between birth and death. During this life - or through this life - man comes down from the super-sensible World into the kingdoms which he then finds in his physical environment: the human kingdom, the animal kingdom, the plant kingdom, the mineral kingdom and so on. And when he passes through the gate of death the other section of his life begins. He then rises to the higher kingdoms which tower upward stage by stage from below, just as the kingdoms of Nature descend from above. He rises to the Angeloi, Archangeloi, Archai, etc." (Steiner, THE RELATION OF MAN TO THE HIERARCHIES)
To put it succinctly & simply, I believe Holy Spirit is saying that 'Subtle Body' = Spirit as David wrote in Psalm 104.
The subtle bodies of fire and wind are the properties embedded in the material resonances that cause the interaction to occur.
Within the chemical interaction of the molecules that compose fire, electromagnetic and nuclear energies move the sequences of interactive change that occur to us as fire.
With the wind, change in air pressure miles away can cause the breeze to flutter the trees; or a hurricane to tear your house down.
Is a subtle body similar to embodiment? I would like to know more. For example embodying a virtue at a certain moment in time?
Keep pushing, Jonathan. You’re a midwife for many.
I just listen to this again. When you talked about the goddess, the people saw, but the one guy did not see it reminds me of my Catholic faith where people see apparitions and visions of for instance Mary. But it could be other things too. I think, for instance, the phenomenon of our lady of Fatima? That was documented physically.
But the three kids were saying that before hand by themselves. Does that make sense? It sounds like what you’re talking about is that true? I hope I get an answer here that’s very interesting.
Hi Jonathan! Can you please explain how repeating the Jesus prayer is in accordance with this verse from Matthew? "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Thanks so much and God bless you!
I would like to take a stab at that. The definition of vain is "producing no result, useless." When used like the word futile. Or the definition for when used for conceit is "having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's own appearence, ability or worth."
Both definitions would work in this case as both are circular, or they lead back to oneself. I imagine that the reference here to the 'heathens' chanting words or sounds as if they themselves were giving it power or that the words themselves contain the power. When something like the Jesus prayer is an exercise in surrender to the Lord behind the words. It forms a rhythm of surrender, just as in the rhythm of the week of worship or the month, or the year, or a lifetime, all condensed down to one line in a prayer.
Thats my shot at it anyway.
The goal of Jesus prayer is to reach true meaning (λόγος) that is concealed in the Mystery of Incarnation, and to connect it with acquired stable skill to actualize it in the entire movement of our way of being (τρόπος ὑπάρξεος).
One must know that prayer is not our own action.
It is impossible to make a prayer on our own.
For those who think otherwise are actually disconnected from Him to Who all prayers are due.
True prayer is activity of Holy Spirit (1Sam.2:9 (LXX): διδοὺς εὐχὴν τῷ εὐχομένῳ: [the Lord] is giving prayer to the one who prays; also Rom.8:25) that makes possible the knowledge of how the Mystery of the Incarnation takes place in saints, and how quite literally they embody the Christ. This prayer is by its very meaning is impossible outside of Church Unity, Bodily Communion with Christ and confession of Orthodox Dogmas of Faith.
Thus, since prayer is such a noble occupation and the only one befitting luminous nature of mind, and if it is in actuality reveals the Mystery of our Salvation, how can it be called "vain repetition"? For "vain" is that which is disconnected from True God. But if we in our prayer give place for Holy Spirit to act, how can it be called "vain"?
Ap. Paul in the Name of the Lord gives the commandment to pray without ceasing (1Ths.5:17) and isn't it the first and greatest commandment to love the Lord with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. How else can it be fulfilled if not by unceasing remembering the Name of our Lord in prayer?
Hello Jonathan, what advice would you give to your "young" audience for finding a spouse since with these insights it is hard to find a fitting practicing religious person or "secular" person. How did you manage the development of your faith within your marriage?
6:30 You might locate an angel on a Map of Meaning, maybe.
I have this theory that spirits are beings and also reasons, or motivations, or "whys". They can be physically embodied, in meaningful text.
You might say, they have subtitle bodies.
Maybe Mr. P or the cloud of witnessess has more thoughts
An example: The Holy Bible is like if you dipped The Holy Spirit in ink and rolled Him across a page-the projection of Him. Or "2+2=4".
I’m brand new to this channel but can you please do a video on ectoplasm?
Hey,
I am very interested in learning more about the spiritual world. Where might I learn more about this?
I am interested in what you've said about angels, yet I know that all true testimony must come from a true source. Where can I learn more about this? And is it true that angels have free will, but do not repent?
The Lord of Spirits podcast. They address your exact question in the double-episode, “God’s Body” / “Bodies and the Bodiless”. Hint... it has to do with their immortality.
Making influence on distance without medium is impossible for creatures.
God can influence everyone and everywhere because He is borderless, He is all-omni present, there is no place where God is not present (He is in the underground - in the Hell as well).
If some demon wants to put some evil thoughts in our mind, he should be close to us.
For example, if Satan was bound after Christ resurrection, then he is not capable (till his release) to influence us directly, only threw activities of other demons who are near us.
Accordingly, if guardian angel wants to protect us, he should be near us, that is why guardian angels are close to us, they are not protecting us distantly from the Heaven.
Actually, that is task which God order them to do, to be our guardians (we orthodox believe that only after baptism we got guardian angel).
There is no need (actually it is not benign error) to give power to angels which only God as Omnipotent has.
This is one of the few things that I disagree with Pageau on. Unfortunately, in my own life, I have had encounters with fallen angels who manifest themselves physically. Physical enough to destroy things and physical enough to hurt people. Maybe this is the best way to explain the existence of angels to materialists, but not what they are.
This all makes a lot of sense to me. But how would the experiences of people seeing angels or demons or spiritual entities be explained? Can they get bodies?
I'm not sure what to say about the relationship between the physical world and the human mind. But I guess a real angel could manifest itself in a hallucination, something materialists would call "not real" but which is still real outside the materialistic lens. Still doesn't explain things like poltergeists moving physical objects around I think.
Don’t think I’m smart enough to listen to yours videos. But I’ll try another. This was my first.
Is inner talk a kind of perception of a subtle message?
Do animals interact with subtle bodies on a regular basis? I know there is the story of the demons going into the pigs. It seems to me that animals will sometimes interact with higher pattern in ways similar to what pageau describes.
Not sure how regular it is, but my cat was very much affected during an episode in which I came under heavy spiritual attack.
Interesting. Saint Augustine has an excellent analysis in his City of God. He pointed out that God created nothing evil but that evil is a negation of good.
I understand the concept of subtle bodies, that they are higher order patterns making an effect on the world. When I hear Pageau speak I start to wonder if he believes in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. The way he speaks I’m not sure if he is an well articulated , to put it bluntly, “atheist” or If he believes in an actual external conscious agent acting on the world. Like if God is an actual being like us with thoughts like us. That he manifested himself in the physical flesh and died, and actual became not dead, alive physically again. Like that you could actually touch him for two thousand years ago. Or if it is all a symbolic hierarchy of meanings? So I wonder. Would like it if Pageau explained like Paul Vanderclay about God nr 1 and God nr2. God nr2 is the agent in the sky, basically. The one that became physically alive after being physically dead for three days.
Motivation for an “atheist” is that you ultimately do not give up control over your life when one can explain everything as an hierarchy of meanings, and not acknowledge an observing agent that you will someday talk to. That will remember this day, and maybe ask you about it. An agent that records everything you do. And also loves you and want the best for you. But again, basically, an person you will someday meet and have an actual conversation with.
Spiral, spiration, inspiration, expiration, aspiration
Thanks
Perception itself is very often action at a distance.
This helps me better understand principalities. That said, angels do manifest in a physical form and in engage with humans by portraying themselves as humans. Think of the scripture about 'entertaining angels unaware' by giving one a cup of water etc. Now do these angels in human form have organs like a heart and lungs? I doubt it but I think their flesh is human like any other person.They are bodiless yet rule over weather, planets and constellations: they have power over the laws of nature and beyond the laws of nature. And they think and are curious, wondering why it is that the Father is so intensely engaged with us.